then what is the role of a heavy tank in the army ?
I think this is similar to india not developing infrastructure along chinese border! Deny the aggressor the required infra to bring in heavy weapons. But then why has india started to develop infra in recent years?
Last edited by Firestorm; 13 Jul 12, at 22:11.
I'm diverting from the thread topic, but out of curiosity, is the army (customer) involved in finalizing the specs before development of any weapon system (product) by DRDO. If no, then the product is screwed from the from the word go. If yes, then why the hell did DRDO develop such a heavy tank which can neither be used against enemy in the west nor in the east!!!
You should enhance the one-liners, as well.
It helps when you are in charge I guess
No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
It may seem that I, a Canadian, have more insight than an Indian soldier into the InA but the truth is all I am is an outside observer who has to rely on what you, the insiders, tell me.
And do recall that you and I together deduced the 1974 test has everything to do with Nixon and nothing to do with Mao. I bet that sent a lot of shockwaves around the net.
And through you, I've started reading one of the best strategic thinkers I've ever came across. Gen Sundarji. What I found strange is that I, as a Canadian, champion his thoughts a hell of a lot more than Indian fanboys.
You have been more humble than many of us Wabbits ever deserved. Strange that belonging to the same very institution, which feeds me and my family, gives me the pride to claim its exploits as my own, there were many restless nights I had battling you and many others here, who were NOT from MY army, I came to appreciate, hell, even understand, many concepts, that earstwhile were simple, un-challengeable, cardinal Facts for me. I guess one needs to come out of the fortress sometimes, just to let lose a hostile breeze rub you for better.
As about the fanboys, Oh! Sh!t, I love all the young ones, from each and ever country. Just two things bug me -
i) When they bring their Gods in.
ii) When they refuse to learn.
# Spare me for the Dickensian quack.
And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...
Oh dude.. do you have comprehension problems? You seems to be making a lot of assumptions about me and my arguments and you seem to be changing goal posts way too often. I know what the reality is. I know what we can do and what we can't. My arguments haven't changed much. And I have been advocating that "whatever" we can do, we should. And you seem to be proving the current reality so hard, while i have never contradicted the same through out my posts. You try to prove Gen.Sundarji's doctrine to me, while my posts never contradicted it. Trying too hard, are we?
Para Commandos (India) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1971 Indo-Pakistan War
Para Commandos were first deployed in combat in the 1971 Indo-Pak War where they performed gallantly. The 9 Para saw action through a daring raid on Pakistani artillery positions at Mandhol. This raid resulted in the destruction of six 122mm guns belonging to the Pakistan Army's 172 Independent Battery.
Apart from the destruction of guns, ammunition and other vital equipment, the Pakistanis suffered 37 killed, 41 wounded and a great loss of face. This raid, launched at a crucial time to enable India's 25th Infantry Division to continue their operations on Daruchian (a Pakistani occupied post), won 9 Para the Battle Honour for action in Mandhol.
By the late 1970s, Indian paratroopers were using High-Altitude, Low-Opening (HALO jump) techniques.1999 Kargil War
Main article: Kargil War
During Kargil War Approximately 4-5 Para/Commando battalions were employed. Para Commandos were tasked to locate the Pakistani gun positions & para commandos had moved through the enemy lines and lined up on enemy artillery. Their job was to direct counter battery fire in case any Pakistani guns got in the play. They completed the task successfully allowing Indian Counter battery to fire at Pakistani gun Positions accurately.Due to this the Pakistani guns were forced to remain out of action throughout the war. The 9 Para (SF) saw action in the 1999 Kargil War, where they conducted a number of raids to remove a combined force of Pakistani Special Forces,light infantry and militants who had infiltrated across the border and had dug in on the mountaintops. They typically operated in 6 man teams (5 men and 1 officer) for Reconnaissance on mountaintop bunkers primarily involving high-altitude scaling at night, with night vision as help. They also took part in the follow-up raids. 9 PARA was actively involved in the forgotten sector Batalik, where it exhibited great courage and tenacity, and was awarded the Bravest of Brave Citation.
If you had been following 'Indian news' more closely, you would've known that Indian army is only operating in a few terrorist infected "pockets" of J&k and the border regions and not the whole state. Only recently it conducted a "flag march" in response to the stone throwing incidents sponsored from across the border. AFSPA remains there for a purpose. Pakistan's proximity and terrorists camps across the border. It provides 'legal cover' to operate withing its own borders. Not because Indian army doubts its own capability. It has firmly put down the 'insurgency'. Even hardline hurriyet leaders admit to it.
Guess why terrorist pigs get killed in a few days if they manage to cross over? The support that the army enjoys with the locals. Local Intel.
Sethi: US Pakistanis Pretend as Indians - YouTube.
Any movie either made in Hollywood or europe has a Pakistani terrorist or nuke scientist working for the terrorists. Their image is that of a terrorist nation and it will take a hundred years to change that, if they manage to survive that long. And the underlined bit is what I 've been trying to say all along. They are just pretending to be peaceful now because of the problems they face. Once its over, they will turn back to terrorism. You are only confirming what I've been saying.
There is a point you have missed completely. Indian army has become a veteran in combating insurgencies. Kashmir is our backyard. Pakistan can try to start an insurgency, only it will be called suicide missions.
Last edited by hammer; 17 Jul 12, at 17:29.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)
As it stands right now, i'm still undecided. i'm unsure whether its possible to know more.
Same quandary, impossible to say either way.
The nuclear knife hanging over their heads is only to deter them from nuking us without a provocation. If does not prevent them from nuking us if we cross their red lines.
If they respond with more terror after we are successful with our sugical strikes, then what do we do ? Hit back again. We can only hit back so hard each time.
If it does not stop further attacks then what exactly did we achieve with these surgical strikes ?
So we have a nice call-response situation here. They can make us jump whenever they want. They will exploit that to their advantage.
Then again we don't know whether that will be the case or not. The point of Prakaram was to have our army on their borders breathing heavily for 6 months. What did it achieve ?
They hit us with 26/11. So even if we do have the capabilty of surgical strikes, their effectiveness is still an open question to me. I reached this conclusion soon after 26/11, and i've yet to be convinced otherwise.
For someone that's been here since 2004, I had much higher expectations of you. You've made some pretty crazy statements in this thread. But given you've made fewer posts here in all that time than i've made in a mere 3 months, maybe that would be expecting too much, eh.
You've asserted a lot so far, the record since 2001 says otherwise.
As you said earlier, even the BJP could not do anything. The very party that initiated the tests as well as won Kargil but yet still blinked in 2001.
And now you tell me you KNOW what we can & cannot do. Well, i don't know what we can do but i can very easily tell you what we did not do. Why ? weak politicians is your answer.
I think the word you are looking for is misguided. Maybe for you.
Have already stated i was not in a position to portray anything. Did you miss that but you still quoted it.
What theory ? I have no theory. I'm still groping for one by examining what-if's. You seem to be getting carried away a bit too much by that exercise by putting words in my mouth and by suggesting i'm trying to fool anyone.
LT said we will only know when we try, until such time we do not know.
AFSPA does not still run in Punjab does it. Pak is still over the border last i checked. Tronic stated that the insurgency came to an end in Punjab because of Bhutto. Oh, could it be the same with Kashmir too ? ie it stops when they decide to stop.
Therefore its a temporary situation that can be reversed at will. We have the upper hand for now. The hope is if we hold on to that advantage in this decade and the one after that things may change. Through sheer force, capital and will we make the problem go away.
It ain't no victory yet, its a respite. Now if that challenges the conventional narrative then so be it.
You can try very hard to assert to the contrary but unless there is action you're wasting your time. It is high time you realised that.
Indira is rumoured to have told Lee his country was the size of a garden. You can't scale up what he did there in a country of our size. I quite like the freedoms we have.
What is it you admire about Ataturk ? he achieved a secular nation. No small feat for a muslim country.
He did so after defeat at WW1. So did we at independence and maintained it since for most of the time barring the emergency. Turkey has had three & a half coups since their founding.
We opened up when we had a balance of payments crisis. The only way for things to change is crisis. So if you want change hope for more crisis It happened after '62 and '91.
Turkey is the fastest growing country in its region, we haven't been slacking. But of late it appears that way.
We did have good leaders after independence. We'd not have made it this far otherwise.
Nehru started the IIT's, Indira is the reason we've become the world's pharmacy.
Rajendra Prasad & his vice were the only ones to get two terms ever. He had a million people show up to bid him farewell in '62 at the Ram Lila. How many will care when our current president finishes her term.
You are too dependent on exceptionalism, I prefer realism
I have been going through your's and hammer's non-stop post to post arguments on what the IA can and what it can't do vis-a-vis another PA sponsored terror attack. You do have an argument - You won't believe the IA has real stings, untill you see one. Great! Taken. But so does million of my other countrymen doubt, in say what they term, as the real payback. Some wants the IA to have the Tricolour on GHQ Rawalpindi, some wants us to have a cup of coffee at Lahore or Islamabad, some would yet want us to rape the hell out of Karachi. But we haven't done that, have we? That indeed makes us impotent, or lacking in resolution, or spirit, or even better our war preparedness isn't it?
I don't have to indulge in this argument for whatever reasons, but then even I have a point. Apart from the politico, our's, their's or even of the other watching nation's, I doubt, unlike you doubt, that military watchers worldwide doubt the IA's mettle, stamina, training or preparedness to turn the PA into pulp, whenever the IA is allowed to HAVE ITS way. Anyday.
For now....you can have your point and also you doubts.
Last edited by Deltacamelately; 18 Jul 12, at 12:26.
And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...
Now, the next question is whether any action taken will be effective in deterring future attacks.
How does one assess that. How would you make that case ?
Where does that leave us ? surgical strikes, border strikes or insurgency.
How effective would those tactics be though ? They might give us an emotional boost but if attacks resume a bit later then we are back to square one. That is the quandary we face with non-state actors and earlier suggested we absorb the attacks.
How do we counter these non-state actors ? tightening up the fort and becoming more efficient at the job. progressively reducing the body toll. Anything more ?
Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jul 12, at 15:02.
Don't trouble your good self on something that our Generals have worked on over the years, by examining bits and pieces, all of them, since the time we fired the first shot post partition. We actually underwent a Doctrinal metamorphosis in the last decade or so, trying to answer the same very questions and guess what? It has given us sound confidence. Whether such is implemented isn't our call. The Government and the masses should decide that in tandem. So yes, the onus is on the political leadership. Your To-Do List should be to elect the one's with a pair of balls and a brain that is actually working. We don't intend regime change, not that we have any qualms about it. We believe, breaking couple of bones of the enemy doesn't actually kills the enemy, its just that it kills the enemy's urge to start the brawl again, quickly. A couple of quick jerk repeats would actually kill that urge all together.
A warship tasked with carrying one missile, whereas it could or rather should be carrying a dozen or so, doesn't necessarily becomes less lethal.
The very reason that people can freely pariticipate and express their views on the strengths of the IA, or even the lack of it, is because the IA has ensured that it delivers whatever objectives have been given to it, everytime, with the same impoverished and dated personnel and equipment. We have no qualms in waging war with whatever is at our disposal and luckily with the same confidence level, that we think is required to flatten the enemy. And please don't bring in the PA's ATGMs and their canals. We took them in our calculations.
And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...
Not to dispute you but has it occurred to you that the Pakistanis are also confident of their defences? I really have not studied the issue and therefore, I am not in a position to evaluate either side but I do not sense the "desperation" the Chinese had vis-a-vi the Soviets. Back then, they were talking about the People's War but one of the unspoken requirements of the People's War is that it requires the enemy to conquer and to occupy your territory. There is no such mention within the Pakistani military establishment.
Therefore, on the surface at least, they do not anticipate the Indian Army marching all the way to Islamabad. Now, they may have their own version of Sundarji where they will never give the Indian Army a reason to march to Islamabad but the sense of it is they don't think it's a reasonable scenario.
One last point though, I do not wish to be a witness to the battle of annihilation that you (and your Pakistani counterpart) are so confident of winning. It will be one of mercy neither asked nor given.
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