Good point. Never thought of it.Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers
then what is the role of a heavy tank in the army ?
I think this is similar to india not developing infrastructure along chinese border! Deny the aggressor the required infra to bring in heavy weapons. But then why has india started to develop infra in recent years?
Because the same lack of infra hinders the Indian Army's deployment in these regions as well and makes it difficult to maintain supply routes. That policy was made in a different era. The Indian Army's plans for defense against a Chinese invasion have changed and so has the PLA's ability to overcome problems created by underdeveloped infrastructure.
Last edited by Firestorm; 13 Jul 12, at 22:11.
I don't know. I have not really followed Indian tank doctrine. I suspect it's a SABRE FORCE but have no backing to that.
Chimo
Can LT or Delta or any other Indian ex-army personnel answer this??
I'm diverting from the thread topic, but out of curiosity, is the army (customer) involved in finalizing the specs before development of any weapon system (product) by DRDO. If no, then the product is screwed from the from the word go. If yes, then why the hell did DRDO develop such a heavy tank which can neither be used against enemy in the west nor in the east!!!
Sir,
the one-liner on this subject.
You helped me on this, remember?
And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...
Maj,
You should enhance the one-liners, as well.
It helps when you are in charge I guess
No such thing as a good tax - Churchill
To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.
Maj, be kind to yourself. I had this information for years but did not put it together until I started talking to you.Sir,
the one-liner on this subject.
You helped me on this, remember?
It may seem that I, a Canadian, have more insight than an Indian soldier into the InA but the truth is all I am is an outside observer who has to rely on what you, the insiders, tell me.
And do recall that you and I together deduced the 1974 test has everything to do with Nixon and nothing to do with Mao. I bet that sent a lot of shockwaves around the net.
And through you, I've started reading one of the best strategic thinkers I've ever came across. Gen Sundarji. What I found strange is that I, as a Canadian, champion his thoughts a hell of a lot more than Indian fanboys.
Chimo
Sir,
You have been more humble than many of us Wabbits ever deserved. Strange that belonging to the same very institution, which feeds me and my family, gives me the pride to claim its exploits as my own, there were many restless nights I had battling you and many others here, who were NOT from MY army, I came to appreciate, hell, even understand, many concepts, that earstwhile were simple, un-challengeable, cardinal Facts for me. I guess one needs to come out of the fortress sometimes, just to let lose a hostile breeze rub you for better.
As about the fanboys, Oh! Sh!t, I love all the young ones, from each and ever country. Just two things bug me -
i) When they bring their Gods in.
ii) When they refuse to learn.
# Spare me for the Dickensian quack.
LOL... That is not the point you made. and LOL to you taking an objective take. Show me a COAS that says that their army have everything that they need. Funds dude.. Funds.
Exactly. An army can never have enough.
Finally!!!!
Again a very stupid and defensive point(at least pretending). We are reacting. They attack, we should hit back. Normal rules of war/terror. Since you are an expert on General Sundarji's doctrine, you should also know that Pakistanis response is also limited due to the "nuclear" knife hanging over their heads. What will Pakistan do? more terror? Bring it on. Its not like you guys are holding back. But Payback is a must. And LT also proposes the same. Hit back and hit hard. LT knows what he is talking about. LT also knows and confirms that even with all the drawbacks we won wars against Pakistanis.
Oh dude.. do you have comprehension problems? You seems to be making a lot of assumptions about me and my arguments and you seem to be changing goal posts way too often. I know what the reality is. I know what we can do and what we can't. My arguments haven't changed much. And I have been advocating that "whatever" we can do, we should. And you seem to be proving the current reality so hard, while i have never contradicted the same through out my posts. You try to prove Gen.Sundarji's doctrine to me, while my posts never contradicted it. Trying too hard, are we?
Errr.... LT's response is more than enough
And my point is we can't work with what we have. Your posts have amply demonstrated how hard your tried to portray Indian army as a 'weakling' who cannot carry out offensive/surgical strikes and misquoted 'articles' to prove your theory. You are fooling no one.
Since we are not talking about full scale wars, I would avoid giving you ample evidence to prove we owned enemy ass in their own territory and confine myself to raids. I will give you just two "well known" operations.
Para Commandos (India) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1971 Indo-Pakistan War
Para Commandos were first deployed in combat in the 1971 Indo-Pak War where they performed gallantly. The 9 Para saw action through a daring raid on Pakistani artillery positions at Mandhol. This raid resulted in the destruction of six 122mm guns belonging to the Pakistan Army's 172 Independent Battery.
Apart from the destruction of guns, ammunition and other vital equipment, the Pakistanis suffered 37 killed, 41 wounded and a great loss of face. This raid, launched at a crucial time to enable India's 25th Infantry Division to continue their operations on Daruchian (a Pakistani occupied post), won 9 Para the Battle Honour for action in Mandhol.
By the late 1970s, Indian paratroopers were using High-Altitude, Low-Opening (HALO jump) techniques.1999 Kargil War
Main article: Kargil War
During Kargil War Approximately 4-5 Para/Commando battalions were employed. Para Commandos were tasked to locate the Pakistani gun positions & para commandos had moved through the enemy lines and lined up on enemy artillery. Their job was to direct counter battery fire in case any Pakistani guns got in the play. They completed the task successfully allowing Indian Counter battery to fire at Pakistani gun Positions accurately.Due to this the Pakistani guns were forced to remain out of action throughout the war. The 9 Para (SF) saw action in the 1999 Kargil War, where they conducted a number of raids to remove a combined force of Pakistani Special Forces,light infantry and militants who had infiltrated across the border and had dug in on the mountaintops. They typically operated in 6 man teams (5 men and 1 officer) for Reconnaissance on mountaintop bunkers primarily involving high-altitude scaling at night, with night vision as help. They also took part in the follow-up raids. 9 PARA was actively involved in the forgotten sector Batalik, where it exhibited great courage and tenacity, and was awarded the Bravest of Brave Citation.
We are not? why not?
Very interesting. You had a hard time calling Pak terrorist actions as terrorism and gave them fancy names and calling it acts of war. But Indian supported groups are terrorists who commit acts of war ? Not to us. They will be freedom fighters for us.
More like a wish than an objective understanding of the ground reality.
If you had been following 'Indian news' more closely, you would've known that Indian army is only operating in a few terrorist infected "pockets" of J&k and the border regions and not the whole state. Only recently it conducted a "flag march" in response to the stone throwing incidents sponsored from across the border. AFSPA remains there for a purpose. Pakistan's proximity and terrorists camps across the border. It provides 'legal cover' to operate withing its own borders. Not because Indian army doubts its own capability. It has firmly put down the 'insurgency'. Even hardline hurriyet leaders admit to it.
Guess why terrorist pigs get killed in a few days if they manage to cross over? The support that the army enjoys with the locals. Local Intel.
Oh really? I am very interested. Like how?
LOL... Offensive mindset? How did you come to that conclusion? Just because I said, we should hit BACK ? You must be another General Sunderji in the making.
Really?! lol... Pakistanis in NY are pretending to be Indians!! Their arch enemies for life. Many are ashamed to be called Pakistanis. Sethi: US Pakistanis Pretend as Indians - YouTube.
Any movie either made in Hollywood or europe has a Pakistani terrorist or nuke scientist working for the terrorists. Their image is that of a terrorist nation and it will take a hundred years to change that, if they manage to survive that long. And the underlined bit is what I 've been trying to say all along. They are just pretending to be peaceful now because of the problems they face. Once its over, they will turn back to terrorism. You are only confirming what I've been saying.
There is a point you have missed completely. Indian army has become a veteran in combating insurgencies. Kashmir is our backyard. Pakistan can try to start an insurgency, only it will be called suicide missions.
This is a whole different topic. But Yes I believe so. Not just one. But a string of them. I am a great admirer of Lee Kuan Yew/Mustafa Kamal Ataturk. I believe if the head is rotten then the body will follow soon. Otherwise there is still a chance. The US has been fortunate to get a whole lot of them, especially during their initial years. And we started with A*holes.
..and visionary leaders especially during their initial years as a new born country.
Last edited by hammer; 17 Jul 12, at 17:29.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)
I started with an article that said we were unprepared and followed with more. Now whether that premise was correct to begin with i don't know but was something i wanted to explore.
As it stands right now, i'm still undecided. i'm unsure whether its possible to know more.
So he would like a bigger share. That is all. The AF & Navy are getting the bulk of it.
If you recall the Atimes article suggested in the event the Paks attempted to broaden the war we would not be ready. The point is about escalating. Again the sources are supposed to be highly placed. Nothing more was offered to substantiate that.
Same quandary, impossible to say either way.
I would consider myself a student of Sundarji, not an expert. I posted to test my comprehension to date. Not struck out yet.
The nuclear knife hanging over their heads is only to deter them from nuking us without a provocation. If does not prevent them from nuking us if we cross their red lines.
You guys ? lol, hammer still cannot decide whether i'm an Indian or not
If they respond with more terror after we are successful with our sugical strikes, then what do we do ? Hit back again. We can only hit back so hard each time.
If it does not stop further attacks then what exactly did we achieve with these surgical strikes ?
So we have a nice call-response situation here. They can make us jump whenever they want. They will exploit that to their advantage.
Then again we don't know whether that will be the case or not. The point of Prakaram was to have our army on their borders breathing heavily for 6 months. What did it achieve ?
They hit us with 26/11. So even if we do have the capabilty of surgical strikes, their effectiveness is still an open question to me. I reached this conclusion soon after 26/11, and i've yet to be convinced otherwise.
You're the one with the ridiculous avatar, the equivalent of a dunce's hat or haven't you figured that out yet
For someone that's been here since 2004, I had much higher expectations of you. You've made some pretty crazy statements in this thread. But given you've made fewer posts here in all that time than i've made in a mere 3 months, maybe that would be expecting too much, eh.
May i enquire as to how it is you DO know what we can and cannot do ? a student of history or more.
You've asserted a lot so far, the record since 2001 says otherwise.
As you said earlier, even the BJP could not do anything. The very party that initiated the tests as well as won Kargil but yet still blinked in 2001.
And now you tell me you KNOW what we can & cannot do. Well, i don't know what we can do but i can very easily tell you what we did not do. Why ? weak politicians is your answer.
WTH have i portrayed the IA as a weakling ?
I think the word you are looking for is misguided. Maybe for you.
Have already stated i was not in a position to portray anything. Did you miss that but you still quoted it.
What theory ? I have no theory. I'm still groping for one by examining what-if's. You seem to be getting carried away a bit too much by that exercise by putting words in my mouth and by suggesting i'm trying to fool anyone.
Help me understand how these exploits of ours will prevent further acts of war on India.
LT said we will only know when we try, until such time we do not know.
When have we ever tried to effect regime change in Islamabad ?
Whose freedom are we trying to win in Pakistan ?
Who said anything about IA doubting its capability in Kashmir ?
AFSPA does not still run in Punjab does it. Pak is still over the border last i checked. Tronic stated that the insurgency came to an end in Punjab because of Bhutto. Oh, could it be the same with Kashmir too ? ie it stops when they decide to stop.
Therefore its a temporary situation that can be reversed at will. We have the upper hand for now. The hope is if we hold on to that advantage in this decade and the one after that things may change. Through sheer force, capital and will we make the problem go away.
It ain't no victory yet, its a respite. Now if that challenges the conventional narrative then so be it.
I am assuming that if we retaliate that the attacks on us stop. As yet i lack a means to test that theory.
Any fool can say we should hit back. It takes less of a fool to see what we've accomplished to date on that score. The picture ain't pretty. Until that picture changes i stick to what i said. That India is unable to get her act together.LOL... Offensive mindset? How did you come to that conclusion? Just because I said, we should hit BACK ? You must be another General Sunderji in the making.
You can try very hard to assert to the contrary but unless there is action you're wasting your time. It is high time you realised that.
The only Paks that matter are in Pindi.
Name some.
yes, and i'm straining to see how effectively we can deal with it. This cannot go on forever.
We hope.
How long according to you has the head been rotten ?
Indira is rumoured to have told Lee his country was the size of a garden. You can't scale up what he did there in a country of our size. I quite like the freedoms we have.
What is it you admire about Ataturk ? he achieved a secular nation. No small feat for a muslim country.
He did so after defeat at WW1. So did we at independence and maintained it since for most of the time barring the emergency. Turkey has had three & a half coups since their founding.
We opened up when we had a balance of payments crisis. The only way for things to change is crisis. So if you want change hope for more crisisIt happened after '62 and '91.
Turkey is the fastest growing country in its region, we haven't been slacking. But of late it appears that way.
We did have good leaders after independence. We'd not have made it this far otherwise.
Nehru started the IIT's, Indira is the reason we've become the world's pharmacy.
Rajendra Prasad & his vice were the only ones to get two terms ever. He had a million people show up to bid him farewell in '62 at the Ram Lila. How many will care when our current president finishes her term.
You are too dependent on exceptionalism, I prefer realism
I have been going through your's and hammer's non-stop post to post arguments on what the IA can and what it can't do vis-a-vis another PA sponsored terror attack. You do have an argument - You won't believe the IA has real stings, untill you see one. Great! Taken. But so does million of my other countrymen doubt, in say what they term, as the real payback. Some wants the IA to have the Tricolour on GHQ Rawalpindi, some wants us to have a cup of coffee at Lahore or Islamabad, some would yet want us to rape the hell out of Karachi. But we haven't done that, have we? That indeed makes us impotent, or lacking in resolution, or spirit, or even better our war preparedness isn't it?
I don't have to indulge in this argument for whatever reasons, but then even I have a point. Apart from the politico, our's, their's or even of the other watching nation's, I doubt, unlike you doubt, that military watchers worldwide doubt the IA's mettle, stamina, training or preparedness to turn the PA into pulp, whenever the IA is allowed to HAVE ITS way. Anyday.
For now....you can have your point and also you doubts.
Last edited by Deltacamelately; 18 Jul 12, at 12:26.
Ok, lets get past whether the IA is or isn't capable as there is no way to resolve that until the IA actually acts.
Now, the next question is whether any action taken will be effective in deterring future attacks.
How does one assess that. How would you make that case ?
If we look at the what the Americans did the only way to put an end to the problem was an invasion of Afghanistan. But that isn't an option for us. We do not possess the superiority to the extent that the Paks would rather lose as oppose to use their nukes. Think about what OOE said about Russia vs China in the early 70s.
Where does that leave us ? surgical strikes, border strikes or insurgency.
How effective would those tactics be though ? They might give us an emotional boost but if attacks resume a bit later then we are back to square one. That is the quandary we face with non-state actors and earlier suggested we absorb the attacks.
Putting all the blame on the politicos seems a bit simplistic to me. The system is failing for a number of reasons i think. Quite simply that we do not have a proper response to this.
The biggest problem is how we deal with it. Think of the British & the IRA. The Brits were patrolling N.Ireland and yet the IRA still hit the mainland. The equivalent of us occupying Pakistan and still getting hit. IRA is just one group. Not some country with nukes.
How do we counter these non-state actors ? tightening up the fort and becoming more efficient at the job. progressively reducing the body toll. Anything more ?
Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jul 12, at 15:02.
Dear DE,
Don't trouble your good self on something that our Generals have worked on over the years, by examining bits and pieces, all of them, since the time we fired the first shot post partition. We actually underwent a Doctrinal metamorphosis in the last decade or so, trying to answer the same very questions and guess what? It has given us sound confidence. Whether such is implemented isn't our call. The Government and the masses should decide that in tandem. So yes, the onus is on the political leadership. Your To-Do List should be to elect the one's with a pair of balls and a brain that is actually working. We don't intend regime change, not that we have any qualms about it. We believe, breaking couple of bones of the enemy doesn't actually kills the enemy, its just that it kills the enemy's urge to start the brawl again, quickly. A couple of quick jerk repeats would actually kill that urge all together.
A warship tasked with carrying one missile, whereas it could or rather should be carrying a dozen or so, doesn't necessarily becomes less lethal.
The very reason that people can freely pariticipate and express their views on the strengths of the IA, or even the lack of it, is because the IA has ensured that it delivers whatever objectives have been given to it, everytime, with the same impoverished and dated personnel and equipment. We have no qualms in waging war with whatever is at our disposal and luckily with the same confidence level, that we think is required to flatten the enemy. And please don't bring in the PA's ATGMs and their canals. We took them in our calculations.
Maj,
Not to dispute you but has it occurred to you that the Pakistanis are also confident of their defences? I really have not studied the issue and therefore, I am not in a position to evaluate either side but I do not sense the "desperation" the Chinese had vis-a-vi the Soviets. Back then, they were talking about the People's War but one of the unspoken requirements of the People's War is that it requires the enemy to conquer and to occupy your territory. There is no such mention within the Pakistani military establishment.
Therefore, on the surface at least, they do not anticipate the Indian Army marching all the way to Islamabad. Now, they may have their own version of Sundarji where they will never give the Indian Army a reason to march to Islamabad but the sense of it is they don't think it's a reasonable scenario.
One last point though, I do not wish to be a witness to the battle of annihilation that you (and your Pakistani counterpart) are so confident of winning. It will be one of mercy neither asked nor given.
Chimo
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
66Likes
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quote
Share this thread with friends: