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S-2,
My response about the Indo Pak thing was in reply to this "Gross stereotype that belies India's inability to bring resolution despite a supposed greater understanding."
Await your response for the first part of my earlier post which is more critical.
Not sure what you want.
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Jeff Lebowski
S-2,Originally Posted by S-2
It is not the inability to bring a resolution, rather what is type of resolution needed?
For India Pakistan is a stragetic foe.For Pakistan India is a religious foe.
Pakistan was created on the premises that Muslims cannot live in India peacefully. Pakistan has been trying to jusify this for the past 60 years,because that is the foundation of it's nation. Hence it has used & abused religion for everything it does. Pakistan is obessed with being called equal with India, because it wants to prove that partition was worth it.
Will a border resolution PA stop this "religious justification"? Hardly.
Hence I said the perception that "resolving Kashmir will automatically make the PA behave better" is pure hogwash.
India wants to make the LOC as border, while Pakistan wants control of rivers running through Kashmir, as it feeds the fields in Pakistan Punjab(PA's home state) and Indian Punjab(India's bread basket).
The moment you wrote,
"If only western nations understand that the conflict..."
you extrapolated Snapper's views into those of hundreds of millions along with their governments as an uncomprehending bloc.
That, my friend, is a gross stereotype.
I'd suggest that virtually the entire world has steered clear of Kashmir. Unless you're prepared to argue otherwise, it would seem most understand that conflict resolution doesn't solely hinge on that issue.
Further, your comment presumes the diplomats/soldiers/politicians of the GoI have perfect clarity to the issues. If so, I'd gather resolution is at hand in some form. Yet sixty years later you're now able to destroy each other but still have not resolved the issues.
Personally, I'd encourage the GoI to make full unbridled war on Pakistan and bring matters to a conclusive head. There'll be no resolution otherwise.
That, btw, is MY view. Please don't assign such to my government or others.
Last edited by S2; 28 Jun 10, at 19:27.
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Jeff Lebowski
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Jeff Lebowski
That for sure can't happen now. Maybe it could have happened 20 years back but not now. What I see is that ,if at all, both countries could engage in proxy war, trying to score brownie points but an outright conclusive victory is not a possibility. They may agree 20 or 30 years from now on the Kashmir issue through talks but before that we will see some proxy war to have some advantage going into the talks.Personally, I'd encourage the GoI to make full unbridled war on Pakistan and bring matters to a conclusive head. There'll be no resolution otherwise.
By that time the common Pakistani would have been educated to such an extent that they would put more emphasis on development and growth rather than the Chauvinistic support to anything anti-India. They would have become tired of continuous terrorism and may force the army to finally rethink it's strategy and fall back on talks to solve the issue rather than comments like "We will eat only one meal but Pakistan should infuse money into military."
At present the Pakistani military is buoyed by the fact that it is the kingmaker in Astan and has considerably reduced India's influence there. Thus it will not want to settle the dispute logically but would try to create commotion in kashmir like it did following the exit of Soviets from Astan. The next decade will be one where both sides would try to off-balance the other but gain little on ground.
S-2,
You are right. I did generalized. Apologies for that.
My perception was derived from the articles by various Western media outlets(US & UK in particular) constantly suggesting resolution of Kashmir as a way out of disciplining PA. Nothing can be far from truth.
Last edited by n21; 28 Jun 10, at 15:41.
I used to be of the opinion that Kashmir can solve the Indo-Pak problems, but I don't believe so anymore.
A significant shift in Pakistani society is needed before any resolution is possible, but there are also other factors like technology and how it can shape the future Indo-Pak war scenario and these require economic dynamism and good foreign partners. IMO, any change in Pak is more likely to be evolutionary and one which India cannot influence much. India should do what it is doing now, focus on economic developement, treat Pakistan as what it is - a mortal enemy, and should continuously seek to blunt Pak ability to inflict damage to its cities and in the battlefield.
When you ask why their leaders do stupid stuff....)
Or want to feel worse about them running ours through the ringer... :(
==================
Fake degree scandal roils Pakistani politics
By ZARAR KHAN and NAHAL TOOSI, Associated Press Writers Zarar Khan And Nahal Toosi, Associated Press Writers Tue Jun 29, 2:02 pm ET
Fake degree scandal roils Pakistani politics - Yahoo! News
ISLAMABAD – Scores of Pakistani lawmakers may lose their seats for allegedly lying about their academic credentials, a growing scandal that adds to the woes of the U.S.-backed leadership as it struggles with Islamist militancy and a weak economy.
What began as accusations against a handful of lawmakers has mushroomed into formal legal challenges against up to 160 elected officials — more than 10 percent of the country's federal and provincial legislators. Many are said to have claimed fake degrees to meet a previous requirement for holding office.
The Supreme Court has ordered the Elections Commission to vet the credentials of nearly all of the some 1,100 federal and provincial lawmakers. If enough lawmakers are found ineligible, there are rumblings that a midterm election may be needed.
The scandal has drawn some frustrated reactions from lawmakers besieged by an aggressive media.
"A degree is a degree! Whether fake or genuine, it's a degree! It makes no difference!" Baluchistan province chief minister Nawab Aslam Raisani, who claims a master's in political science, shouted at a gaggle of reporters Tuesday.
The controversy has its roots in a 2002 law imposed by former military ruler Pervez Musharraf that required candidates for office hold a bachelor's degree or equivalent. Musharraf supposedly wanted to improve the caliber of lawmakers, but critics said the move was more about sidelining certain opponents.
It also was undemocratic, critics alleged, in a country of 180 million where only 50 percent of adults are literate. Traditionally, feudal ties or business success count for more in politics than academic achievement.
Seven other countries — including Chile, Nigeria and Tajikistan — have constitutional provisions specifying an educational qualification for candidacy to the lower house of the national parliament, said Pippa Norris, who teaches at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government.
Pakistan's Supreme Court struck down the requirement in April 2008, but not before Musharraf allowed elections in February of that year. Analysts say many candidates apparently submitted fake degree papers to qualify for those races.
Many of the potentially fake degrees appear to have been claimed from Islamic seminaries, whose degrees are considered equivalent to a bachelor's in Pakistan. Other lawmakers, however, claim to have earned bachelors, Ph.D.s or master's degrees from institutions whose existence is difficult to verify.
One of the more unusual cases involved a provincial lawmaker, Rana Mubashir Iqbal. He recently resigned after accusations that he submitted a bachelor's degree from Punjab University that had been awarded to another man by the same name. Iqbal said he resigned because he was asked to by his party, the opposition Pakistan Muslim League-N, not because he had lied.
The scandal appears to cut across party lines, so there may be support for quickly passing a law absolving the accused. But such a move may further tarnish the image of a political elite the majority of Pakistanis, who live in poverty, view as corrupt and indifferent to their needs.
Right now, those needs include an end to rolling blackouts due to chronic electricity shortages, curbing double-digit inflation on the prices of staple foods and goods, and rolling back the tide of al-Qaida and Taliban-led militancy that has cost numerous Pakistani lives.
"A common man can only regret having elected these cheats to the assemblies," bemoaned one letter writer to "The News," a major English-language daily.
Abid Sher Ali, the chairman of National Assembly's education committee, said that to remove the stain of scandal, even the prime minister — who claims a master's in journalism — has to prove his degree was legitimate.
"This is a process which will make us a great nation," said Ali, who boasts a master's degree in business and finance. "Nations have to sacrifice some individuals in the process of becoming great, so we should not be scared of the situation we're facing now."
The party that seems the most affected by the scandal is the opposition PML-N, thus dampening the appetite for a midterm election. The spokeswoman for the ruling Pakistan People's Party, Fauzia Wahab, went so far as to say Tuesday that an early vote would "derail the democratic system."
The ruling party chairman, Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari, has claimed to hold a bachelor's degree from a business school in London, but his party has been unable to produce a certificate or establish what he studied. Zardari will probably escape the latest scandal because he was elected after the degree requirement was struck down.
The offending lawmakers should not be dealt with harshly because the blame really lies on the degree requirement, imposed by an unelected man who took power in a coup, said Cyril Almeida, a political columnist, referring to Musharraf.
"We have to go back to the original sin," said Almeida. He argued that to really stop corruption in Pakistani politics, courts should enforce laws governing campaign finance or proper disclosure of candidates' assets.
In Pakistan, a country where political comebacks are common, it will probably take way more than a kerfuffle over the veracity of degrees to keep legislators out for long, especially since the old law doesn't apply anymore.
Earlier this year, National Assembly member Jamshed Dasti resigned after being unable to prove in court that he held a master's in Islamic studies. Media reports at the time said he couldn't even name the first two chapters of the Quran.
Then, he ran in the special election for the same office he had just vacated, and won.
___
Associated Press Writer Babar Dogar in Lahore contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway
@S-2
Sir,
India is not interested in winning WOT for you or your Government.
India do not need a super power or a super academician to tell her now what Pakistan is up to. We were shouting off the roof when USA was functionally deaf about Pakistan.
However India, Pakistan, you and your government knows logistics better then others. You can try your luck intimidating Indians but only Pakistan will make all the deals for USA, for sure.
Sorry, You are a cry in wilderness.
Warm Regards.
Should anyone be surprised?
Pakistanis blame US after shrine attack kills 42
By BABAR DOGAR, Associated Press Writer Babar Dogar, Associated Press Writer – Fri Jul 2, 6:46 am ET
LAHORE, Pakistan – Pakistanis lashed out Friday at the U.S., blaming its alliance with their government and its presence in Afghanistan for spurring two suicide bombers to kill 42 people at the country's most important Sufi shrine.
The reactions showed the challenge facing Washington and the Pakistani government when it comes to rallying public support against the Islamist extremism that has scarred the South Asian nation, even after an audacious attack on the moderate, Sufi-influenced Islam most Pakistanis practice.
Thousands of people had gathered late Thursday at the green-domed Data Darbar shrine in Lahore when bombs went off minutes apart. The blasts ripped concrete from the walls and left the white marble floor awash with blood. There was no claim of responsibility, but Islamist extremists consider Sufism — a mystical strand of Islam — to be heretical.
But on Friday, few Pakistanis interviewed saw militants at the root of the problem.
"America is killing Muslims in Afghanistan and in our tribal areas (with missile strikes), and militants are attacking Pakistan to express anger against the government for supporting America," said Zahid Umar, 25, who frequently visits the shrine, where 180 people were also wounded.
Pakistanis are suffering because of American policies and aggression in the region, said Mohammed Asif, 34, who runs an auto workshop in Lahore. He and others said the attacks would end if the U.S. would pull out of Afghanistan.
Several other Pakistanis interviewed blamed the Ahmadis, a minority sect that has long faced discrimination in Pakistan. On May 28 in Lahore, gunmen and a suicide squad targeted two Ahmadi mosques, massacring at least 93 people, and some Pakistanis claimed the sect must have been seeking revenge.
Others cast about for additional villains — though America's hand was seen there, too.
Washington "is encouraging Indians and Jews to carry out attacks" in Pakistan, said Arifa Moen, 32, a teacher in the central city of Multan.
Pakistani officials condemned the bombings, using language they have frequently used to try to convince the population that the fight against militancy is not one they can ignore.
"Those who still pretend that we are not a nation at war are complicit in these deaths," said Farahnaz Ispahani, a spokeswoman for Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari.
The U.S. Embassy issued a statement Friday condemning the attack and saying it "demonstrates the terrorists' blatant disregard for the lives of the Pakistani people and the future of this country."
The targeted shrine is that of Data Ganj Bakhsh Hajveri, who lived hundreds of years ago and traveled throughout the region spreading a message of peace and love. He eventually settled in the Lahore area, and his shrine is the most revered and most popular of Sufi shrines in the nation.
Lahore, the capital of Punjab province, is a key military, political and cultural hub. The city has witnessed several audacious attacks on diverse targets over the past two years, from crowded markets to Sri Lanka's cricket team.
The Pakistani government has been accused of lacking the will to crack down on militants in Punjab, the country's most populous and most powerful region. Many of the militants are part of now-banned groups launched with government support in the 1980s and '90s to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan and pressure archenemy India.
Some recent attacks in Punjab have been blamed on the "Punjabi Taliban." The group is a relatively new network of al-Qaida-linked militants who have split off from other local insurgent groups but also has ties to the Pakistani Taliban, which has its bases in the northwest tribal regions.
The suicide bombings have fueled anger against Pakistan's weak police forces, who appear helpless to stop the killings. In the hours after Thursday's bombings, demonstrators gathered outside the shrine to protest the security lapse, only to be dispersed after police fired into the air and threw rocks at them.
Senior Lahore government official Khusro Pervez said recent intelligence alerts about possible attacks lacked details.
"The intelligence agencies alerted us that terrorists could target prominent places, shrines and mosques in Lahore. They mentioned names of major places as a possible target, but no specific information was available to us," he said.
Also Friday, militants attacked a security checkpoint on the outskirts of the northwestern city of Peshawar, killing three officers, said Safwat Ghayur, a regional commander of the Frontier Constabulary security force.
He said officers returned fire and killed some of the attackers.
___
Associated Press Writer Riaz Khan in Peshawar contributed to this report.
"However India, Pakistan, you and your government knows logistics better then others. You can try your luck intimidating Indians but only Pakistan will make all the deals for USA, for sure.
Sorry, You are a cry in wilderness."
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
Jeff Lebowski
I am. Where are the burning Indian flags ? The hate speeches calling for the destruction of India ?
BBC News - Pakistani flood victims' anger at USAyaz Amir, an MP in Nawaz Sharif's opposition party, said: "The United States is spending $5bn every month on the war in Afghanistan. That puts into context what they're giving us."
The implication is that if the US does not do much more, Pakistan's ability - and willingness - to support the US-led battle against Islamist insurgents will suffer.
Mr Amir added: "If Pakistan can't recover, then one thing which will be washed away is the so-called war on terror. This front will not be functioning."
And forget the following article, but the comments in response by British citizens tell the real story that Pakistanis need to wake-up to: BBC News - Who cares about Pakistan? - Like this one:
"When the Pakistani government chooses to spend their revenue funding nuclear weapons and maintaining the sixth largest armed forces in the world they have no right to plead poverty when the monsoon is heavier than normal. Haiti were already one of the poorest countries in the world when an unforeseeable earthquake hit them - they deserve charitable giving. It is hard to feel the same way about Pakistan."
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