A missile v/s missile test on Sunday ( Is India testing ABM??)

**Archer** · 01 Dec 06,, 21:33

Originally Posted by Anoop C

Archer,

A few questions, if you don't mind.

My pleasure!

1. The Chengappa article says that the first stage of the interceptor was liquid-fuelled. Does that rule out the Arrow theory?

Pretty much. I believe Dr Saraswat and his team decided to use the technology that they were most comfortable with. As Arun S has pointed out on BR, the Prithvi's liquid fuel engines allow more precise control of the vehicle, its logistical disadvantages apart.

2. It also says that a proximity fuse was used. So it's not a hit-to-kill vehicle as was believed on BR?

A hit to kill vehicle would be the hardest task- at this point, we dont have enough information, bar the fact that the third stage is a dedicated kill stage, with the active seeker.

3. The photographs of the collision posted on the first thread on BR were taken after the debris of the impact re-entered the atmosphere? What about the spatial spread of the point of impact - does the point of converge maintain its integrity as the plume spreads? I ask because the Chengappa article mentions that the impact could not be observed visually or audibly due to the altitude of interception. So either the photographs were taken by satellite (in which case couldn't the collision also be observed real-time, contrary to what the article says?) or the photographs were taken from the ground after the debris re-entered the atmosphere, which leads to the question about the spatial integrity of the plumes.

I dont think the photos were by satellite. For instance, the NDTV footage shows people looking up, and observing the debris contrails- others on BR have pointed out that on a (relatively) clear day, it is possible to observe the same. The thing is that even if you sought to observe it visually, if the missile had missed and exploded, and you saw its debris- you could be mistaken as thinking that it might have done its job, but theres no guarantee of the same.

Hence, the need for a dedicated radar to monitor the trajectory of your own interceptor (so you can later point out when which stage failed, or whether control was shaky- say an erratic trajectory- if it were to do so and then begin rectification)- and to observe what happens to the target- that apart, the radar would need to provide the precise data for midcourse correction to the interceptor.

**Archer** · 01 Dec 06,, 21:33

Originally Posted by kams

I think you just won $50

.

Hows that money going to be spent?

"Bartender a shot for all my friends o'er here". Hic!

**Archer** · 01 Dec 06,, 21:39

Originally Posted by joey

The missile in the truck is the second stage[or full] of it highsea... thanks.
but thats definitely the thing!! as its not prithvi and have a modofied nose cone etc.

The India Today picture shows PAD01- if the magazine had not explicitly id'ed the specifics, it would be easily mistaken for an everyday Prithvi.

It has a radome (the dark portion at the tip) and is said to be 1 mtr longer than a regular Prithvi.

I am still not too happy about using a liquid fuelled first stage, and I am sure folks will crib about it later- but for now, its time to felicitate the dudes on their hard work.

Theres probably a lot more work ahead, but a lot of the stuff has been developed or is available- radar, C3I network, mission planning systems etc, plus RF seekers, midcourse datalink- these are the umpteen "small things" that India sought to develop expertise on via its IGMDP and the payoff comes in follow on projects like this.

As I mentioned earlier, the higher project amount allocated 400 Million $ is still peanuts by international standards for a program of this magnitude, but since they would have reused a lot of stuff developed/ used for other projects, that would cut down costs. But I am sure they have taken considerable assistance for subsystems for the system- the radar is mentioned, I presume even the RF seeker in the kill vehicle etc would have int'l assistance.

System integration would have been a pain.

I couldnt care where they source some of the hardware from as long as it works, and we have source code access to the whole thingmajig.

And the LCA-PV-3 just took to the air as well.

Not a bad year.

**~~northface~~** · 01 Dec 06,, 21:43

The very idea of his bet with a teenager. It just shows that his seniority on this board does not translate to objectivity in his statements. Poor taste and poor objectivity. I did'nt like it one bit. Am sorry if it hurts, but that is my opinion and it is valid in front of the compiled evidence that have been posted objectively by so many Indians, desipite ridicule, sarcasm, and distaste. Please grow up folks. If this is not an equal opportunity forum with deference to laid out regulations on the board..you can have me out.

**~~northface~~** · 01 Dec 06,, 21:46

PV3 in the air???

I just checked i don't have any news on that....

**Archer** · 01 Dec 06,, 21:49

Dude, its cool. Be a sport, -a certain level of skepticism is to be expected. This is a very long drawn process, and its not like everyone knows its been in the works for years. And nor is India the US or the Soviet Union, with a long history of successful SAM development. Both countries have spent billions on far more complex systems as well, and have a well established industry to back it.

I agree some of his comments were in bad taste:

Joey, I don't have to underestimate anybody. I know what India's capabilities are. This just isn't there, no matter how hard people try to spin it. This is a quid-pro-quo of the nuke deal. The Arrow is a MCTR Class 1 missile, so no one is going public about the exchange. Instead it is being sold as some "secret" missile developed by DRDO. A story only an Indian could believe.

But theres no point in bickering over it and keeping at it; some of the replies to him on that score were not in the "make friends" category either, lol.

Besides: Theres a long way to go before this system matures and we need to wait and watch what happens next.

Expect a lot of bad press though.

**highsea** · 01 Dec 06,, 21:52

All I've seen so far is a Prithvi. Where's the pics of the interceptor, which is claimed to be the second stage? Kams, I hope you can offer something better than what is posted on BR. A pic of a Prithvi proves nada, kids.

Joey- we'll send our $$ to Tophatter (when he gets back) or another Mod. When there is some objective confirmation, the Mod can determine who won the bet.

**highsea** · 01 Dec 06,, 21:58

Archer- Let me get this right- Now you're claiming that a ballistic missile is the interceptor???

As I said, I will wait for independant confirmation- it shouldn't be long coming.

As to Northface's whining- you're breaking our hearts, junior.

**Archer** · 01 Dec 06,, 22:01

Originally Posted by northface

PV3 in the air???

I just checked i don't have any news on that....

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=2696

joey2 · 01 Dec 06,, 22:02

Did Kams send you the Article?If not Please send the Email, That Article is not posted in BR.

I'll send the $ highsea, however a small issue cuz i use only debit card and no CC/Paypal, I can transfer it with E-Banking to any of the Indian buddies here who has paypal and he can send the same to mod i guess.

Archer I've confirmed from some classified source this is home grown.There is assistance in Radars C3I but definitely not from US.

**Archer** · 01 Dec 06,, 22:03

Originally Posted by highsea

All I've seen so far is a Prithvi. Where's the pics of the interceptor, which is claimed to be the second stage? Kams, I hope you can offer something better than what is posted on BR. A pic of a Prithvi proves nada, kids.

As mentioned previously, the print edition (Kams should have that) has PAD01 on the first page. It looks pretty Prithvi like, but Raj Chengappa mentions the same and details the differences.

joey2 · 01 Dec 06,, 22:07

and highsea if you still dont believe after seeing the article with pic i dunno....cuz independent media has said the missile was named as PAD01 and its same written on it.

Also what is prithvis serial number to start with the nose cone also looks diff isnt it?

**Anoop C** · 01 Dec 06,, 22:07

Originally Posted by highsea

All I've seen so far is a Prithvi. Where's the pics of the interceptor, which is claimed to be the second stage?.. A pic of a Prithvi proves nada, kids.

I'm confused. Would the second stage not be part of the air defense Prithvi (not the target one)? The caption in the report mentions that this is the interceptor, nor the target Prithvi. Are you asking for photos of the second stage after the first stage has fallen off? I am not sure they are available yet or even if they will be.

So, if the caption is true i.e. that the picture shown in the India Today report is that of the air defense missile, not the target missile, does that not confirm that it was not the Arrow that was tested?

Archer, thanks for the clarifications.

**kams** · 01 Dec 06,, 22:08

Highsea,
Check mail. (Sorry for the delay. was taking a nap

)

**Archer** · 01 Dec 06,, 22:08

Originally Posted by highsea

Archer- Let me get this right- Now you're claiming that a ballistic missile is the interceptor???

No; If you go back and read A missile v/s missile test on Sunday ( Is India testing ABM??).

It looks like the Prithvi and even flies like one, but that's where the semblance ends.

The interceptor missile, too, had to be designed and built from scratch. Its first stage is similar to that of the Prithvi and uses its liquid fuel engine. But for the second-stage 'kill vehicle', a powerful solid motor was developed apart from divert thrusters that gives it a high degree of manoeuvrability. It makes the missile a metre longer than the nine-m Prithvi. The interceptor is also equipped with terminal homing guidance system with an RF (radar frequency) seeker to detect targets at long range of low radar cross-section and travelling at high speeds.

They have used some design attributes from the Prithvi for the first stage- and the overall interceptor looks similar to a Prithvi, which is actually shown in the article.

As I said, without the information about it- nobody would have given it a second glance, and just taken it to be a Prithvi.

As I said, I will wait for independant confirmation- it shouldn't be long coming.

There can be no "independent confirmation" given the degree of secrecy associated with the program. The information released now is likely to be the most that is available for the next three-four years or the like.