Could the Zumwalt's guns take on a battleship?

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Some seem to think other.

Who ?

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

Who ?

I'm sure you can find them. They are there.

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

They are there.

Where ?

[Dreadnought]

Former USMC Commandant General P. X. Kelley: "There is no weapon system in the world that comes even close to the visible symbol of enormous power represented by the battleship"


Former CENTCOM Commanding General Tommy Franks in a letter to USNFSA Executive Director Dr. William Stearman: " ... naval surface fire support will remain key to the success of future littoral operations ... I found your discussion of the need to bring back two battleships to 'bridge the gap' between the absence of naval gunfire and organic fire-support intriguing. Battleships have served the American military well in previous conflicts. The importance of having sufficient naval artillery support to complement the long reach of our cruise missiles cannot be overstated"


Congressional Research Service's Ronald O'Rourke in Nov. 2004: " ... reflects a need to replace the high volume, all weather naval surface fire support capability for supporting Marines and other friendly forces ashore that the Navy lost in 1990-1992 when it removed the four reactivated Iowa-class battleships from service"


Former SECNAV John Lehman in a January 2000 article of Naval Institute Proceedings: "The law requires that the Navy maintain two battleships on the register until it can certify that it has surface fire-support capability that equals or surpasses that of the battleships"


General Walt Boomer, USMC [Ret.] who commanded the I MEF during Operation DESERT STORM: "[Battleships] with their long-range guns, massive firepower, and ability to respond in any weather filled a niche that nothing else could"


Captain Larry Seaquist, U. S. Navy [Ret.], Former Skipper of U. S. S. IOWA, writing in the American Legion Magazine: "What the Navy does these days is try to influence events ashore and that's just what a battleship does ... When we would sail the IOWA down the Straits of Hormuz during the Iran-Iraq War, all of southern Iran would go quiet"






Senator John McCain wrote in 1997: "The very substantial attributes of these platforms [battleships] remain more relevant today than during the height of the Cold War. The Navy's emphasis on littoral operations since the dissolution of the Soviet Union and subsequent atrophy of it's fleet has increased the value of battleships immeasurably ... I can think of no compelling reason for mothballing the last of the battleships ... and every reason for retaining them in the fleet"


USMC Commandant General James Jones in a June 2000 interview with Armed Forces Journal International: "I regret we took them [battleships] out of service before we had actually fixed the naval surface fire support problem"


Former House Armed Services Committee Chairman [now deceased] Cong. Bob Stump [R-AZ]: "Measured against their capabilities, they [battleships] are the most cost effective and least manpower intensive warships we have ... It is imperative that two battleships be returned to active service as soon as possible to close the dangerous NSFS gap"


USMC Commandant Michael Hagee, on April 1, 2003: "Our nation's expeditionary forces will remain at considerable risk for want of suitable sea-based fire support"


Senator Ted Kennedy [D-MA] on April 9, 2002 at Senate Sea Power Subcommittee: "[there appears to be] little hope that the Navy would be able to meet the Marine Corps fire support requirements in the foreseeable [future]"


USMC Deputy Commandant, LTGEN Robert Mangus on 12 March 2005 [just 2 days ago as this is being written] in Pacific Stars and Stripes: "Quality is important, and we get the quality that we want" he told members of the House Armed Services Committee. "But the quantity itself is a problem. It's a problem with having peacetime forward presence. It's a problem for being able to rapidly surge the right number of ships. It's a problem for major combat operations" And "Slipping or cutting the replacements is what concerns me. The trend over time goes down. When you need that capability in the future, it does concern me"

And if you don't want to believe me or the folks at USNFSA, surely the combined opinions of Former CENTCOM Commanding General Tommy Franks and Former SECNAV John Lehman and General Walt Boomer and Captain Larry Seaquist and Senator John McCain and Former Commandant of the Marine Corps General P. X. Kelley and Congressional Research's Ronald O'Rourke and Former USMC Commandant James Jones and Former House Armed Services Committee Chairman Congressman Bob Stump and current USMC Commandant General Michael Hagee and Senate Sea Power Subcommittee Member Senator Ted Kennedy and current USMC Deputy Commandant LTGEN Robert Mangus can't all be wrong.

Hows about these folks. Do you happen to hold more brass or clout as these gentlemen?

On a finer note I cant believe that Ted Kennedy was on that list. Scary!

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Do you happen to hold more brass or clout as these gentlemen?

GAO-06-279R : Issues Related to Navy Battleships, December 13, 2005, page 5 :

DOD officials from the joint staff, combatant commands, Navy, and Marine Corps do not believe that reactivating battleships would be cost effective nor would the modernized battleships significantly reduce those risks or provide the best means to meet long-term joint fires capability requirements.

Nuff said.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

GAO-06-279R : Issues Related to Navy Battleships, December 13, 2005, page 5 :



Nuff said.

Judging from some of the experience I listed above exactly. Enough said.

It is however easy to write off a trusted and true weapon when you want the newest toy on the shelf even if cost and deliverable are an unanswered question to this date. The LCS brought that to light rather quickly. Enough said.

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Hows about these folks.

Let's see :

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Former USMC Commandant General P. X. Kelley: (BS snipped)

Former SECNAV John Lehman (BS snipped)

Do I need to repeat myself here ?

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Former CENTCOM Commanding General Tommy Franks in a letter to USNFSA Executive Director Dr. William Stearman:

Franks is just being polite with Stearman (spit, puke, gag )

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

USMC Commandant Michael Hagee, on April 1, 2003:

He doesn't even use the word *battleship*.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

USMC Deputy Commandant, LTGEN Robert Mangus on 12 March 2005

He doesn't even use the word *battleship*.

BTW, his name is Magnus, not Mangus.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Captain Larry Seaquist, U. S. Navy [Ret.], Former Skipper of U. S. S. IOWA, writing in the American Legion Magazine:

At the risk of repeating myself, what he said in 2007 was :

Actually, I'd love to see it back on active duty, but that's a false hope. Its real value will be as a museum, and that's important in a country where most people don't have any connection with the military."

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Senator John McCain wrote in 1997

Both McCain and Warner supported the legislation that delisted USS Iowa and USS Wisconsin back in 2005.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Former House Armed Services Committee Chairman [now deceased] Cong. Bob Stump [R-AZ]:

He's dead.

[Dreadnought]

I'm not concerned in the least if you have to repeat yourself. You asked for them, I offered. Question answered. Next.

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

You asked for them, I offered.

What you offered was merely a copy / paste of a rather old Op. Ed. (May 2005) by Jim Carey which can be found here.

I don't quite understand why you didn't post the link to the Op. Ed. in the first place. Perhaps you could explain.

The Op. Ed. itself is nothing more than an amalgamation of various BS stuff written by people connected with Stearman (spit, puke, gag ).

Amalgamating BS is just like summing up zeros : what you get in the end is BS (or zero).

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Next.

How about a quick glance at some more guys drumming up for reactivation :

Oliver North came into the public spotlight due to his participation in the Iran-Contra Affair, in which he was the chief coordinator of the sale of weapons via intermediaries to Iran.

Samuel Loring Morison is a former American intelligence professional, convicted of espionage and theft of government property in 1985, and pardoned by President Clinton in 2001.

Mike Sparks is a rabid fan of the M113 APC and boisterous critic of the Stryker and the Marine Corps. He is currently busy posting a bunch of homemade vids on youtube where he celebrates the death of US troops to IEDs, labelling US casualties as *lemming victim trucktards*.

[Gun Grape]

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

Mike Sparks is a rabid fan of the M113 APC and boisterous critic of the Stryker and the Marine Corps. He is currently busy posting a bunch of homemade vids on youtube where he celebrates the death of US troops to IEDs, labelling US casualties as *lemming victim trucktards*.

I know I'm going to hate myself for asking, But have you got a link for his youtube page or know what name he post under?

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

I know I'm going to hate myself for asking, But have you got a link for his youtube page or know what name he post under?

He's apparently posting under many different alliases on youtube. The two that I know of are Nomorenarcissism and Dynmicpara.

Get your sickbag ready before you *visit*.

[Dreadnought]

Well ShipWreck, here is exactly what I find funny.

1) You find you way here into this particular thread after nobody subscribes to you trumpeting New Jersey's inaccuracy (supposed) in Lebannon.
I wonder why exactly that is.

*Common sense says its not very respectfull to point a finger at a well deserving honorable warship nor its crew that manned those guns nor sailed that ship when the phone rang but you seem to have zero problem criticizing them for their actions.

2) Since you seem to be an aircraft buff I am totally surprised that I dont find you criticising the carrier when one of those planes accidently drops a bomb in the wrong place and the wrong target or shoots up a building or school by accident but yet you would criticise the BB for her actions off Lebanon in a heartbeat.

What a bunch of utter ********! Sounds more like you have a chip on your shoulder but at this point WHO GIVES A ****!

And yet you want to paint others (as in your last post as traitors, conspirists, and making videos disrespectfull to our troops and their families?)
That would support giving the Marines and Navy something they might need in the near future before the newer weapons system come on line?

WTF IS THAT ABOUT?

The Zumwalts have not even began building nor have any price tag or firm delivery date to replace them and the ERGM project has now been halted.
The LCS program was halted due to major cost over runs and no price cap set upon them from the inset and late delivery to the military.

I would support a f***ing ice cream truck for the Marines or Navy and those men/women if it made their jobs easier,safer and perhaps saved some lives in the process while they do the jobs no body else wants too.

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

1) You find you way here into this particular thread after nobody subscribes to you trumpeting New Jersey's inaccuracy (supposed) in Lebannon.

You may post your evidence in the NJ in Lebanon channeling thread. I'll be glad to examine them.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Common sense says its not very respectfull to point a finger at a well deserving honorable warship nor its crew that manned those guns nor sailed that ship when the phone rang but you seem to have zero problem criticizing them for their actions.

What I am criticizing is the apocryphal BS that proliferates in the pro-reactivation *circles* and beyond (e.g. NJ's shooting was outstanding, she missed because the politicians told her to miss and all that poo).

Regarding USS New Jersey in Lebanon, the crew was not ready, the ship was not ready, it wasn't the right tool for the job, etc...

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

2) Since you seem to be an aircraft buff

Check this thread and you'll find out that I have the same criticism for apocryphal BS when it comes to aircrafts.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

And yet you want to paint others (as in your last post as traitors, conspirists, and making videos disrespectfull to our troops and their families?)

Oliver North is a traitor and a liar, Samuel Loring Morison is a traitor and a failed pundit, Mike Sparks is a miserable scumbag.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

That would support giving the Marines and Navy something they might need in the near future before the newer weapons system come on line?

They don't give a damn about the Marines, that's just an excuse. They are only interested in looking like tough guys, that's why they jumped on the reactivation bandwagon (*big toys for the big boys* effect).

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

I would support a f***ing ice cream truck for the Marines or Navy and those men/women if it made their jobs easier,safer and perhaps saved some lives in the process while they do the jobs no body else wants too.

Reactivating BBs would NOT make their jobs easier or safer or save some lives.

At the risk of repeating myself once again :

DOD officials from the joint staff, combatant commands, Navy, and Marine Corps do not believe that reactivating battleships would be cost effective nor would the modernized battleships significantly reduce those risks or provide the best means to meet long-term joint fires capability requirements.

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

How about a quick glance at some more guys drumming up for reactivation :

Here is another one :

Roscoe Bartlett attended a Washington ceremony in which the Rev. Sun Myung Moon crowned himself the Messiah. (...) It was later reported that Bartlett took a more extensive role in the ceremony, carrying Moon's robe to Moon for the coronation, in which Moon and his wife were declared "messiahs of the world."