Iowa Class vs Kirov Class

[Blademaster]

Originally Posted by ArmchairGeneral

That too, although, to their credit, those two (especially the Harpoon) were known for being sneaky, agile, and relatively hard to detect- attributes a Shipwreck screaming in from the stratosphere would be particularly short on.

Moving at Mach 5, you have no need to be sneaky or agile. It is damn nearly impossible to get away from a Mach 5 moving missile that has midcourse adjustment feature. There are no current defensive weapon system capable of defeating this kind of weapon from a platform, not even THAAD Aegis based because of the extremely short timeframe of Shipwreck. In fact, the best defensive move for the IOWA class is to stay off the radar/sonar screen from Kirov.

[ArmchairGeneral]

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Moving at Mach 5, you have no need to be sneaky or agile. It is damn nearly impossible to get away from a Mach 5 moving missile that has midcourse adjustment feature. There are no current defensive weapon system capable of defeating this kind of weapon from a platform, not even THAAD Aegis based because of the extremely short timeframe of Shipwreck. In fact, the best defensive move for the IOWA class is to stay off the radar/sonar screen from Kirov.

Er, make that Mach 2.5. And that's high altitude. 1.5 at sea skimming height, from what I've read. And any system capable of taking out ballistic missiles that easily exceed Mach 5 should have no problem with much slower missiles at high altitudes.

But yes, speed does have its advantages. And Mach 1.5 on the deck still means virtually no reaction time without OTH sensors. I'd be surprised if an Iowa managed to shoot down 1 out of 10 Shipwrecks launched at it.

[Blademaster]

Originally Posted by ArmchairGeneral

Er, make that Mach 2.5. And that's high altitude. 1.5 at sea skimming height, from what I've read.

I thought the Shipwreck has a top down attack profile, meaning it is launched at an angle and then skims the sea towards the target or ballistically towards the target and then accelerates upwards and then even accelerates more downward, reaching at the speed of Mach 5 when it hits the target.

And any system capable of taking out ballistic missiles that easily exceed Mach 5 should have no problem with much slower missiles at high altitudes. But yes, speed does have its advantages. And Mach 1.5 on the deck still means virtually no reaction time without OTH sensors. I'd be surprised if an Iowa managed to shoot down 1 out of 10 Shipwrecks launched at it.

True that any system capable of shotting down ballistic missiles would have no problem with such lower speed missiles but remember that system has to have ample time to scan the sky and area for targets, track the targets once found, acquire firing solution for the missiles, and then launch the missiles into position where they could intercept the incoming missile's flight envelope. With Kirov less than 50 miles away, I am not sure that any system would be capable of performing this feat with the given timeframe.

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by tphuang

remember, the S-300s all have an additional anti-ship mode. They don't have the warhead of shipwreck, but they sure had more kinetic energy. Same with the 192 Gauntlets. That's a total of 288 missiles outside of the 20 shipwreck. You could damage a lot of the sensors on board Iowa and achieve at minimum a mission kill. As for point blank, you really think an Iowa class can catch up to a nuclear powered Kirov cruiser?

Point blank range, I doubt a Kirov can fire more SAMs at an Iowa than an Iowa can let loose 16" shells at a Kirov. SAMs need guidance. Things can go wrong with guided weapons. Shells don't need guidance. Besides, Iowa packs more 16" shells than Kirov packs missiles.

[Blademaster]

Originally Posted by gunnut

Point blank range, I doubt a Kirov can fire more SAMs at an Iowa than an Iowa can let loose 16" shells at a Kirov. SAMs need guidance. Things can go wrong with guided weapons. Shells don't need guidance. Besides, Iowa packs more 16" shells than Kirov packs missiles.

If shells don't need guidance then it means that the Kirov is within 25 miles of Iowa. That's fricking suicide. If Kirov is outside of 25 miles, then only Harpoons and TASM tomahawks are available.

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by Blademaster

If shells don't need guidance then it means that the Kirov is within 25 miles of Iowa. That's fricking suicide. If Kirov is outside of 25 miles, then only Harpoons and TASM tomahawks are available.

Exactly. That's why I said point blank range Kirov is dead meat against Iowa. TPHuang's point is that Kirov does have within horizon range weapons in SAMs used for anti-surface role. Those missiles need to have a targeting lock to fire. In 1v1 duel (for the sake of this thread) that means Kirov is within the horizon of the Iowa to be able to use these weapons. That means Iowa is free to let loose the 16" guns. Dead Kirov.

[Firral]

Originally Posted by ArmchairGeneral

Er, make that Mach 2.5. And that's high altitude. 1.5 at sea skimming height, from what I've read. And any system capable of taking out ballistic missiles that easily exceed Mach 5 should have no problem with much slower missiles at high altitudes.

But yes, speed does have its advantages. And Mach 1.5 on the deck still means virtually no reaction time without OTH sensors. I'd be surprised if an Iowa managed to shoot down 1 out of 10 Shipwrecks launched at it.

I wrote earlier about it:

By the way, there are experimental rockets 3M-45 "Granit" ("Shipwreck") with the engine 4D-04, capable to accelerate momentum up to mach 4 (they have not gone to a series because of disorder of the USSR ). Probably they had a greater chance to strike Iowa.

[Firral]

Originally Posted by gunnut

SAMs need guidance.

Not truly for "Granit" as these rockets can operate independently (without the control of the ship)

In a mode of fluent fire one rocket which is carrying out a role of "prompting" flies on a high trajectory as much as possible to increase the area of capture of the purpose, at the same time other rockets fly on a low trajectory. In flight of a rocket communicate about the purposes. If the rocket - "promptings" is intercepted, then one of other rockets automatically takes up its functions. Rockets distribute and classify on importance of the purpose, choose tactics of attack and the plan of its carrying out. For exception of a mistake at a choice of maneuver and defeat of the set purpose in the onboard computer (BCVM) electronic data on modern classes of the ships are incorporated. Besides in BCVM there are also tactical data, for example, about type of warrants of the ships that who before it - allows a rocket to define, an escort, the aviabearing or landing group and to attack overall objectives in its structure. In BCVM data on counteraction to means of radio-electronic struggle of the opponent are incorporated, capable statement of handicapes to withdraw rockets from the purpose, tactical receptions of evasion from fire of means of antiaircraft defense. After rocket firing solve, what of them will attack what purpose and what maneuvers for this purpose it is necessary to carry out according to incorporated in the program of behaviour mathematical algorithms. The rocket has also means of counteraction to anti-rockets attacking it. Having destroyed an overall objective in the ship group, the remained rockets attack other ships of the warrant, having excluded an opportunity of defeat by two rockets of the same purposes.

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by Firral

Not truly for "Granit" as these rockets can operate independently (without the control of the ship)

I'm afraid you misuderstood my post.

I was addressing the point made by tphuang about using the surface to air missiles on the Kirov in anti-surface mode. In that case, the missiles will need a firing solution in order to launch. That means the Kirov is within sight of the Iowa. The SAMs might have active radar guidence so it doesn't need any input from the mothership, but it can still be fooled by counter meansures.

Shells on the other hand, are dumb. That means they can't be fooled, since they are dumb already. That also makes them cheap and Iowa packs a lot of them. In a 1v1, point blank fight, Kirov is toast. The only change Kirov has is to keep the distance and hope the Granits can do enough damage from long range.

It's very impressive what the Granit can do in a formation. I wonder how it works in real life with all the jamming and the interception of the "spotter" missile will affect the swarm.

[Firral]

Originally Posted by gunnut

It's very impressive what the Granit can do in a formation. I wonder how it works in real life with all the jamming and the interception of the "spotter" missile will affect the swarm.

Probably for check of it we should arrange real fight. We know, that "Granit" was created against the ships protected by means of anti-rocket struggle, we know, that means of anti-rocket struggle by the ships were created against rockets like Granit. Who from them is better? One god knows it.
"Granit" is a rocket used in formation. Especially, if you captain Kirov, and your opponent the difficult purpose of type Iowa you will not start only one rocket. Your decision will be start of several rockets, for defeat of the purpose for certain. Thus, Iowa, even at destruction and a deviation of 2/3 rockets, will receive 3-4 defeats (at a volley in 10 rockets). Besides Granit as I wrote earlier, has algorithm of an aiming in weak places of the basic types of the ships of the opponent. I do not know, whether there will be it defeats one place, or it will be many impacts along the ship, or impacts from above in a bottom.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by ArmchairGeneral

Um, because the Iowas have virtually no air defence capability. 4 Phalanx+6x2 5"/38s, vs 12x8 SA-N-6+192 SA-N-9+44 SA-N-4+2 100 mm or 130 mm+8 30 mm CIWS.

Actually if thought upon the Iowas carry signifcant air defense capability. They are not listed with her normal armament but trust me they do carry weaponry suited for such measures. They tend to change the capability every time they are out at sea being upgraded with the latest. They dont go to sea without air defense capability and not the Phaylynx capability. They have been known to carry several differnt kinds of rockets including sam's albeit not in a standard mount form but all the same they have carried them.

In a on the horizon encounter the Iowas are quite deadly for the Kirov. Normal eye sight to the horizon is nominal 12-15 miles before the curvature of the earth fools your eyes. The Harpoon is good for 85 miles out and the Toms are good for 1500 miles out. Needless to say these are the older versions of these missles and if upgraded such as the thread portrayed it would have to be taken into consideration the ranges of the newer missles and the power of their warhead. Kirov is a floating "open bag of fireworks" just waiting for a lit match. If it has to come down to gunnery Kirov will run for her life because it will be no contest whatsoever. Otherwise then that it will be who finds who first. The Iowa's will surely withstand the damage that will send Kirov's to the bottom the only question becomes will there be a light show or not.

I got it...lets put them both in a malestrom and slug it out like the end of Pirates 3.

[IDonT]

Originally Posted by gunnut

Exactly. That's why I said point blank range Kirov is dead meat against Iowa. TPHuang's point is that Kirov does have within horizon range weapons in SAMs used for anti-surface role. Those missiles need to have a targeting lock to fire. In 1v1 duel (for the sake of this thread) that means Kirov is within the horizon of the Iowa to be able to use these weapons. That means Iowa is free to let loose the 16" guns. Dead Kirov.

Any competent Kirov Captain knows full well the capability of the Iowa at horizon range and he would not want fight an "Iowa's fight" but his own. The fact that the Iowa lacks even the most basic air defence (CIWIs is last ditch only) means that the targeting Helix can shadow the Iowa without harrassment.

If I was the Kirov Captain I would stay within 50-100 miles of target and let lose my Shipwreck. That way, these missiles will still have 66 percent of their fuel load when they hit the Iowa (creates more fire damage). In addition, my Air defence officer would be shoot down any Sea Sprite that comes snooping around in order to keep the Iowa captain blind as to where my location is.

Once my Shipwreck are exhausted, the Helix can send battle damage assessment to determine if I can finish off the Iowa at within the horizon range without significant risk. The shipwreck would target the armored box launchers and the harpoon launchers. These areas of the ship are estremely vulnerable from secondaries. Other shipwrecks would attack the 16 inch turrets. They may not penetrate, but the fire would make the turret less effective or uninhabitable. If the 16 inchers are still online, run away. If not sink her.

The initiative is always with the Kirov.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by IDonT

Any competent Kirov Captain knows full well the capability of the Iowa at horizon range and he would not want fight an "Iowa's fight" but his own. The fact that the Iowa lacks even the most basic air defence (CIWIs is last ditch only) means that the targeting Helix can shadow the Iowa without harrassment.

If I was the Kirov Captain I would stay within 50-100 miles of target and let lose my Shipwreck. That way, these missiles will still have 66 percent of their fuel load when they hit the Iowa (creates more fire damage). In addition, my Air defence officer would be shoot down any Sea Sprite that comes snooping around in order to keep the Iowa captain blind as to where my location is.

Once my Shipwreck are exhausted, the Helix can send battle damage assessment to determine if I can finish off the Iowa at within the horizon range without significant risk. The shipwreck would target the armored box launchers and the harpoon launchers. These areas of the ship are estremely vulnerable from secondaries. Other shipwrecks would attack the 16 inch turrets. They may not penetrate, but the fire would make the turret less effective or uninhabitable. If the 16 inchers are still online, run away. If not sink her.

The initiative is always with the Kirov.

If you decided to engage an Iowa at 100 miles stand off distance your dead end of story. If her Harpoons have 85 nautical mile distance and her Toms have 1500 miles imagine how far her radars can see. The best strategy for the Kirov is sail away in the other direction and dont risk your ship over a fight you certainly wont win.

Being Americas most decorated battleship (18 stars) means that you dont run from anybody at anytime. After 48 years of service to the USN and several direct encounters in conflict they have a awesome track record second to none that has tested her time and again.

Kirov has yet to even see a conflict that would test even her slightest ability at conflict and sea handeling skills. That alot of wishfull thinking about a ship that still has yet to get her feet wet.

[Blademaster]

Iowa's radars are only good for the on the horizon. They do not have any Over the Horizon radars. Now if the Iowa ships were escorted by the Aegis destroyers and data linked to the Aegis destroyers, well, Iowas can receive the targetting info and let loose her destructive power. IIRC, there are new technology today that allows shells to be fired further than 25 miles. Better refinement in propellment can allow the shells to be propelled up to 70 miles if I am correct.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Iowa's radars are only good for the on the horizon. They do not have any Over the Horizon radars. Now if the Iowa ships were escorted by the Aegis destroyers and data linked to the Aegis destroyers, well, Iowas can receive the targetting info and let loose her destructive power. IIRC, there are new technology today that allows shells to be fired further than 25 miles. Better refinement in propellment can allow the shells to be propelled up to 70 miles if I am correct.

Are you familiar with her long range radar and sat capability? Then you would know the range of those radars and yes they do see beyond. Look up her stats after the last commisioning. And yes the Kirov would certainly be dead at 100 miles out.