Long Range Sabot Rounds

[eocoolj]

First of all, hello to all. I have been lurking here for awhile and decided to join to get everyone's impressions of something i read about the other day. I dont think its been discussed here, or if it has, not recently.

Link

While reading the above thread, which is a couple years old, on another website, I came upon James Barends' comment, which I found very interesting. One of the battleships biggest weaknesses in the 21st century is (in my opinion) its lack of long range firepower. Engagement ranges are now measured in hundreds of miles rather than yards.

The Navy is currently spending massive amounts of money on the new DD(X) destroyer and its Advanced Gun System. When first reading about this system, I was thinking that, its 100 mile range gave it a decided advantage over the shorter range battleship guns. But if saboted 16 inch rounds can hit targets at 100+ miles (or maybe much further, according to the author the post), and with considerably more punch than the DD(X), does this cause anyone here who considers the battleships obsolete to reconsider?

Also, if anyone has any more information on the saboted rounds, I'd be interested to hear about them.

[RustyBattleship]

Sabot rounds were designed for the 16"/50 guns on the Iowa class Battleships. Mock ups were issued to the New Jersey to test the rigging and handling equipment for loading.

Two sub-calibers of Sabot were considered; 13" and 11". The 11" Sabots were first designed (but not built to my knowledge) back in the 1950's for Project Katy. That was to provide the Battleships with nuclear projectiles based upon the Army's 280 mm "Atomic" cannon.

But we ran into roadblocks with the Atomic Energy Commission in handling the projectiles. They insisted that no projectile be rigged strictly by wire ropes as the conventional (and much heavier) projectiles were. All nuclear warheads had to be moved in a positive capture system of steel clamps and secured on vertical rails using a rack and worm drive or a chain drive with redundant run-away safeties.

We had to design such a system for the USS Chicago (CG-11) for the Talos nuclear warheads and it was a b*tch.

Since then, the commission's members were replaced with people more knowledgable about nuclear warheads. You could drop one from a height that would normally set off a conventional Hi-Cap dropped from the same height.

So, in the 1980's rigging and loading tests were done on the New Jersey using the existing loading systems. That's not to say she would have been equipped with nuclear warheads, but the possibility of providing her with long range Sabot rounds was almost a reality.

The only drawback to that was a faster burning but "cool" propellent was still being tested, cussed and discussed. You see, for a lighter weight projectile to leave the muzzle at a higher velocity for the longer range, the propellent has to burn much faster so most, if not all, of it was ignited before the projectile cleared the muzzle.

Test this for yourself (as I inadvertently did). Find an old Winchester Model 97 12 gauge riot gun with a 20" barrel. Reload some skeet rounds with Green Dot powder. Reload some with Red Dot powder. Go to a skeet range at night and you can readily see the differences and pressure loss between the slower burning Green Dot against the Red Dot. The Red Dot is a tonue of red flame but the Green Dot is a bright flare. You will still bust your clays, but your shooting partners flinch a lot more from the Green Dot flares.

[eocoolj]

thanks for the reply, and also i see that i missed another topic that touched on the saboted rounds, though not that much.

I guess my real question is, which is more expensive, designing an entirely new ship and gun system, or refitting the existing battleships and perfecting the saboted gun rounds? Which would be more effective in terms of return for the dollar?

Also, unfortunately I dont do any handloading, so I cant perform your test, but I definitely understand what you are saying. Also, the author of the thread I quoted stated a design out to over 1000 miles. Is it even possible to fire an unpowered projectile through that distance in the atmosphere?

[braindead]

Rusty , I know it´s probably been said already , but you really should write books about the subject . You are a walking library of knowledge !

[eocoolj]

just found at this website a few really cool pictures.

Disassembled "Gunfighter" saboted projectile of the late 1960s

Advanced Gun Weapon Systems Technology Program

[tlturbo]

I was gonna post Slovers pages for you to look at but I see you found them already.

Rusty - is you Mod 97 US ord marked and original? I lost one in a house fire in 2000 and I'm looking for a replacement if you want to sell it. Lost LOTs of great guns - bummer.

I started shootiing clays (trap) back in the 60's and switched over to sporting clays about 1999. Lost those guns too.

If you think your loads make other shooters flinch, try touching this off at the range. NOT real people friendly HA HA

.50 BMG 214 gr powder behind 850 gr turned bronze bore rider (has bourlettes like the 16") Reloading these is fun HA

[eocoolj]

tlturbo, I shot sporting clays for the first time last year. TONS of fun, although its not the cheapest way to spend an afternoon. The place I go to, you feel like you are at a country club for shooting.

Also, what are bourlettes?

[dave lukins]

I'd love a penny for every .50 I've fired..Barbados here I come

[tlturbo]

On most bullets from modern rifles and pistols, the entire diameter of the bullet is larger than the bore diameter at the top of the lands so the rifling can cut into the bullet. On large projectiles like the 16" battleship projectile and smaller ones, rather then engraving the entire surface of the bullet, there is a band at the top portion and another at the bottom of the projectile. On a large projectile, the bottom one is probably copper and is commonly called the driving band (see pic of 16" in my avatar. It's hard to see but just below the taper the shell is a little wider for about 6-8 inches.) The center portion of the projectile doesn't touch the barrel. If you look close at that .50 BMG projectile, you will see a slightly larger band just below the taper and another one just as it starts to enter the case. The bullet rides on these 2 wider rings. One reason is to reduce friction and that increases velocity. Another is because that bullet is solid bronze and engraving the entire projectile would put unnecessary wear on the bore. On US .50 BMG ball ammo the entire copper clad bullet is the same diameter. We call the bullet in the picture a Bore-Rider and the chamber is cut a little different to handle it.

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by braindead

Rusty , I know it´s probably been said already , but you really should write books about the subject . You are a walking library of knowledge !

I already have. But need a publisher. I can't afford to self publish so I need a regular publisher willing to chance that Naval/Maritime museums would carry the book and Naval Historians would want to read a book on the history of the Long Beach Naval Shipyard, Long Beach Naval Base & Long Beach Naval Air Station.

[dave lukins]

The .50 on Tanks was only used for ranging. A solanoid automatically fired 3 rounds at the target. A good gunner can rapidly move up the sight scale giving the Commander his range to the target..Alas the Laser Range finder has taken that away.

[dave lukins]

Rusty'B If you stop breaking your fingers at BBQs you will be able to write lots more

PS. How is your Dear wife's leg coming along

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by dave lukins

The .50 on Tanks was only used for ranging. A solanoid automatically fired 3 rounds at the target. A good gunner can rapidly move up the sight scale giving the Commander his range to the target..Alas the Laser Range finder has taken that away.

Ummm, what tank are you talking about? On my M-41 a Model 1919 .30 caliber Browning was coaxially mounted on the left side of the 76mm gun. It was used both for ranging purposes and anti-personnel fire. It could be fired either manually or with a solenoid (so could the 76).

On the right hand side of the turret, within reach of both the gunner and the TC, were three switches to electrically operate the guns. One was for electrical firing of the 76, one for electrical firing of the .30 mg. The third powered the pistol grip control of the TC so he could traverse, elevate and fire the 76.

On top we had a M-2 .50 caliber Browning for anti-personnel and target spotting. The TC had control of that gun and being in a position to better spot a target, he could command the gunner to "Follow My Tracer" and lay in a few bursts for the gunner to sight in on.

[RustyBattleship]

[quote=tlturbo;424830]On large projectiles like the 16" battleship projectile and smaller ones, rather then engraving the entire surface of the bullet, there is a band at the top portion and another at the bottom of the projectile. On a large projectile, the bottom one is probably copper and is commonly called the driving band (see pic of 16" in my avatar. It's hard to see but just below the taper the shell is a little wider for about 6-8 inches.) The center portion of the projectile doesn't touch the barrel. [quote]

That all copper band near the base of the projectile is properly known by two different names. One is the cannalure band and the other is the rotating band. Cannalure is the accepted technical name though Rotating is what it is actually used for as well as a gas-check.

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by dave lukins

Rusty'B If you stop breaking your fingers at BBQs you will be able to write lots more

PS. How is your Dear wife's leg coming along

I have an appointment with an orthopedist next week. One finger is still swollen (since Father's day) and the other fingers are getting numb. Probably tore a tendon loose.

Wife's leg is slowly getting better. Along with recovering from breast cancer treatments she is doing remarkably well except for a few moments of depression now and then.