New Jersey engine and boiler crew

[Rick DeBay]

During my Engineer's Tour of the USS Missouri, I think the docent said that each space required six to eight crew members, but I'm not sure.
I know that Dreadnought works on the New Jersey, so I figured this would be the best place to ask.
How many men manned each boiler and engine room, and what were the engineering watches?

[RustyBattleship]

Hmmm. The engineering spaces on the Iowa class was not up my alley as was the hull structure and armor.

However, I did write a feasibility study of what we could do to protect the entire crew of a Battleship in the event of a CBR attack. In that study I listed the number of men in each space.

It will take me a while to look it up though. It's two volumes (took 2,000 manhours to compile) and we have company coming over for dinner.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Rick DeBay

During my Engineer's Tour of the USS Missouri, I think the docent said that each space required six to eight crew members, but I'm not sure.
I know that Dreadnought works on the New Jersey, so I figured this would be the best place to ask.
How many men manned each boiler and engine room, and what were the engineering watches?

Hey Rick,
Ill try to put together an engineering list for the boiler rooms, fire rooms, spaces and watches for you as far as New Jersey goes.
Ill post as soon as completed.
Thanks

[Dreadnought]

Rick,
This may take a few days as I reassure and give an approximate number.

Problem being is the timeframe we are looking for. I am expecting that this number you are looking for would be for her last time at sea yes?

If it was during WWII I could give somewhat of accurate number now.

Thanks

[Rick DeBay]

Recent numbers would be nice, but WWII would be good also. Also if the engineering watch was port/starboard, or red/white/blue.

The book by Stilwell mentions a deployment (Lebanon?) where the crew was reduced from the WW2 numbers, and therefore couldn't steam at full speed for long periods if required. I'm guessing the increased heat reduced watch times in the boiler rooms, requiring more crew.

So numbers for WW2 (full effectiveness) and recent (reduced capabilities) would give a good range. Thanks for the effort.

[RAL's_pal?]

1983 Jersey leaves coast of South America and ends up off the coast of Lebanon averaging 27kts for the trip. Info straight from Commander Jones.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Rick DeBay

Recent numbers would be nice, but WWII would be good also. Also if the engineering watch was port/starboard, or red/white/blue.

The book by Stilwell mentions a deployment (Lebanon?) where the crew was reduced from the WW2 numbers, and therefore couldn't steam at full speed for long periods if required. I'm guessing the increased heat reduced watch times in the boiler rooms, requiring more crew.

So numbers for WW2 (full effectiveness) and recent (reduced capabilities) would give a good range. Thanks for the effort.

Hey Rick,
This may take some time as the Engineering Divisions aboard the battleships in WWII were ran differently at that time. It is a very in depth question when you consider the divisions that belonged to engineering in those day were much further intricate then those used today. Just for example....

Engineering Department was ran by a Chief Engineering Officer (usually a full Commander) with normally 3 Lt. Commanders as his division heads for Main propulsion, Damage Control and Electrical.

WWII- Engineering entailed divisions A,E,PA,PF.

A= Auxilliary
E= Electrical
PA= Propulsion Aft
PF= Propulsion forward.

PA & PF Divisions were responsible for the operation, maintenance, repair, and replacement of the fuel, water, steam, and propulsion systems. This included the boilers, turbines, reduction gears and propulsion machinery.

(Many in between jobs were divided among the divisions as far as manpowers such as WT (water tender) MM (Machinist Mate) "Oil king" etc.

Post WWII

Main propulsion = B & M divisions. (BT's and so on)

B div= Boilers,Firerooms and associated equipment
M div= Main engines,shaft,bearing and props and operation of 8 turbines and all boiler feed and potable waters. Also transfering of liquid ballast to maintain keel.

Hydraulics,Rudders,HVAC,Evaporators,diesel engines among others = A div.

Damage Control= Pipe,Metal,Carpenter,FireMains,Drainage, Welding and bending of all metals aboard ship.= R division.

Electrical=Power distribution, AC/DC Power,lighting,motors etc= E division.

Now I will start to run the numbers. But please do note as far as men in space are concerned this number can fluxuate at any given time if need arises. Also note that since Mr.L has apparently dont this study already my numbers may not match his but should be inside the ball park. However he does hold an inside edge on these studies.

The number crunching and comparrison may take a few days though. But above is a rough outline in differences over time.
Thanks.

[Rick DeBay]

I've found that ' Steamin Demon BT' at the NavWeaps discussion boards supplies some of the information that I've been looking for: Re: Scott's Arguments for the Iowa Class Battleships
Re: The utility of steam propulsion in the 21st Century

Ignore what he says in the second post about disagreeing with Dick L, if you read the post he's replying to he's actually agreeing with him (that the utility of an Iowa steam plant is underrated).

From this, I assume (apologies to Tony Randall) that it'd be possible to steam with a crew that could fully man the propulsion stations only during general quarters; and given that all spaces wouldn't take casualties, you could probably steam with less than that.

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by Rick DeBay

Recent numbers would be nice, but WWII would be good also. Also if the engineering watch was port/starboard, or red/white/blue.

The book by Stilwell mentions a deployment (Lebanon?) where the crew was reduced from the WW2 numbers, and therefore couldn't steam at full speed for long periods if required. I'm guessing the increased heat reduced watch times in the boiler rooms, requiring more crew.

So numbers for WW2 (full effectiveness) and recent (reduced capabilities) would give a good range. Thanks for the effort.

Rick: I really don't feel up to getting into a detailed debate on this. Been up and down out of bed too many times taking care of my wife after her operation.

But the reason the crew numbers were knocked down was we didn't have need of that many gunner's mates after taking off the 20mm and 40mm mounts. Main machinery space crews remained the same.

As for steaming all out for extended periods, New Jersey went from Charleston to Beirut at no less than 25 knots at any one time. She was able to do this because she left her regular escorts behind and didn't have to slow down to refuel them or take on fuel herself. In 68' she had the USS England as escort (for anti-aircraft protection) and had to refuel her. We had not switched to Navy Distillate yet.

Yawn! I need another cup of coffee.

[Dreadnought]

Rick,
After a talk with a few gentlemen this weekend we agreed on the same numbers for normal steaming conditions as follows.

Normal steaming conditions= Point A to Point B in no hurry (no exteme speed) and not at GQ nor "Cross Connected" running. (5-7 men per boiler room)

Cross connected means we are running more then one propulsion system off one boiler at a time.

General Quaters, High Speed runs or being cross connected will increase this number due to oilers, water techs, electricians etc in order to keep the steam plant running optimal as she is serviced (lube pumps etc). Also Nozzle or (atomizing plate) changes for speed increase etc.

It is a very in depth question and really can only be answered by asking how in depth do you wish to look.

An interesting article on manning a skeleton crew aboard a battleship for transport. That is without a gunnery crew or going into battle mind you nor having to be anywhere any time fast.

This article will give you a brief look at how (when the USN confiscated the IJN Nagato at the end of hostilities during WWII) many men (180) it would take just to get her underway with however many boilers and or shafts on line in order to bring her to her nuclear funeral not long in coming.

IMPERIAL JAPANESE NAVY MYSTERIES

Mr.L may be able to refine this somewhat for you.

Thanks

[RAL's_pal?]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Cross connected means we are running more then one propulsion system off one boiler at a time.

Gee whiz, I always thought that being cross connected meant that you were sending steam from one boiler (or a set) to another space, like sending steam from 1A and 1B boilers to #3 engine room. The reason being maybe the MFP's, FDB's or Fuel Oil service pumps are under going maintenace in #3 fireroom. I'd have to believe that trying to provide more than one propulsion system with steam from one boiler would make for a very low steam volume to the HP turbines.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

General Quarters, High Speed runs or being cross connected will increase this number due to oilers, water techs, electricians etc in order to keep the steam plant running optimal as she is serviced (lube pumps etc). Also Nozzle or (atomizing plate) changes for speed increase etc.

I don't understand the relevance of "Also Nozzle or (atomizing plate) changes for speed increase etc." have to do with increasing the number of personnel per space. I'd heard stories of BT's having their own set of bored out burner nozzles that they'd slap in when they were going racing, but that was on DD's. You'd need 8 sets on a BB.
Of course these are just my views, I'm not cRusty "ankle breaker" L.....

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by RAL's_pal?

Gee whiz, I always thought that being cross connected meant that you were sending steam from one boiler (or a set) to another space, like sending steam from 1A and 1B boilers to #3 engine room. The reason being maybe the MFP's, FDB's or Fuel Oil service pumps are under going maintenace in #3 fireroom. I'd have to believe that trying to provide more than one propulsion system with steam from one boiler would make for a very low steam volume to the HP turbines.

And you are correct as this would be the proper case in example.



I don't understand the relevance of "Also Nozzle or (atomizing plate) changes for speed increase etc." have to do with increasing the number of personnel per space. I'd heard stories of BT's having their own set of bored out burner nozzles that they'd slap in when they were going racing, but that was on DD's. You'd need 8 sets on a BB.
Of course these are just my views, I'm not cRusty "ankle breaker" L.....

Sorry Pal goofed up when writing this. Had to write it quick. What was meant by nozzle changes would mean how fast is she moving and how fast do they want her to move and how fast it takes to get her to move. This may increase man power given current conditions or any diffaculties encountered at the time of changing the plates. My bad.

[RAL's_pal?]

Last comment (for now)... you also have to man the aux spaces when steaming because things like the evaporters are in an aux space. Boilers use a lot of feed water and the BB's still have the old Grissom-Russell submerged basket-type evaps, which run well, but don't make as much feed water as the modern flash-type evaps. BTW cRusty, why didn't they replace the submerged basket type evaps with flash-type during reactivation/modernization? They take much less and appear to have less problems.

[Rick DeBay]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

After a talk with a few gentlemen this weekend we agreed on the same numbers for normal steaming conditions as follows.

Normal steaming conditions= Point A to Point B in no hurry (no extreme speed) and not at GQ nor "Cross Connected" running. (5-7 men per boiler room)

Is this with a port/starboard watch?

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

It is a very in depth question and really can only be answered by asking how in depth do you wish to look.

Feel free to write a book, I'll wait
Seriously, if you're ambitious I'm sure NavWeaps would love to post an article. And I get the impression that there are a lot of boiler men who feel the technology has been treated like a red-headed step-child since the advent of the gas turbine.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by RAL's_pal?

Last comment (for now)... you also have to man the aux spaces when steaming because things like the evaporters are in an aux space. Boilers use a lot of feed water and the BB's still have the old Grissom-Russell submerged basket-type evaps, which run well, but don't make as much feed water as the modern flash-type evaps. BTW cRusty, why didn't they replace the submerged basket type evaps with flash-type during reactivation/modernization? They take much less and appear to have less problems.

Absolutely Pal. Got to have water and lots of it!
The rules I learned long ago: the three mains

1)Steamflow (Pressure)
2)Feed flow (fuel)
3)Drum level. (water)

The evaporators onboard make up to 120,000 gallons of boiler feed and potable water per day. The boiler feed water must contain less then .2 parts salt per million gallons and treated with boiler compounds to reduce any minerals running through the system that can prematurely eroid the tubing especially the tubing bends where the wear is much more abrasive.