Conventional Cruise Missiles vs. WWII Battleships

[RustyBattleship]

Okay. I'll put my two cents in. Tomahawks and Harpoons CAN hurt a Battleship. Sinking it is something else. On the Iowa class BBs, the armor is INSIDE the ship. So you have to have missiles going through the same holes in the upper decks or shell plating to even hit the armor.

The explosive in the warheads of CMs is much more powerful than that in 16-inch shells. But the CMs are slower without the hard armor penetrating noses. A 16-inch shell with full service charge leaves the muzzle at about 1700 mph. By the time it reaches a target 20 miles away, it is still doing 1100 mph. About twice as fast as a Tomahawk.

As for the movie "Under Siege" I was too busy finding all the flaws in it to enjoy it (it was filmed aboard the USS Alabama in Mobile and even had the Tomahawk launchers on backwards). I'm not much of a Siegal fan but enjoyed Colm Meany (a meaner role than Chief O'Brien) whom I met a a Star Trek con (really a very friendly guy).

Also enjoyed Tommy Lee Jones. For that matter I enjoy almost all of his movies.

The blond was good eye candy too.

Ummmm. What was the movie about again?

[TopHatter]

Originally Posted by RustyBattleship

Ummmm. What was the movie about again?

I dunno...selling band candy or something?

[gunnut]

That was Steven Segal's 2nd best movie.

His best? Executive Decision.

[Rick DeBay]

Originally Posted by vmetal76

I don't think that "escape" was one of Yamato's final mission objectives. The ship was on a suicide mission -to die honorably in battle rather be disgraced in a humiliating defeat or surrender.

Her mission was to beach herself on Okinawa, and operate as a giant gun emplacement.
If she did manage to evade the bombers, she would have had to face the naval blockade around Okinawa. I think a couple of battleships were tasked with stopping her, but odds are it would have been a torpedo run by a destroyer that would have done the job.

[TopHatter]

Originally Posted by Rick DeBay

I think a couple of battleships were tasked with stopping her,

RADM Morton L. Deyo was actually the one tasked by Spruance to destroy the Japanese Ten-Go force, but Mitscher would have sooner slit his own throat then allow the black shoes to claim such a juicy prize and jumped the gun, asking and being granted permission only at the last minute.

It didn't hurt (or help, depending on your perspective) that Deyo was somewhat slow in his preparations compared to the ass-on-fire Mitscher.

Deyo's Task Force 54 battle line consisted of battleships Idaho, New Mexico (Spruance's flagship), Tennessee, West Virginia, Maryland, and Colorado.

Originally Posted by Rick DeBay

but odds are it would have been a torpedo run by a destroyer that would have done the job.

I quite doubt that, as sending in destroyers to attack battleships is typically suicidal.

The American Mark 15 surface-launched torpedo had a maximum range of 15,000 yards, while Yamato's 6.1" secondary guns alone had a maximum range of nearly twice that.

[JBG]

Wasn't there an experiment where a Harpoon was fired at either an Iowa class or the bow of one ( I'm thinking Kentucky ) where the Harpoon barely scratched the paint?

Mission kill is another concept. The radars and directors etc of the battleships are easily susceptible to missle damage.

As for torpedoes vs AS missles, the best way to sink such a ship is by letting water in rather than letting air in? Especially if you break the ship's back?

Jonathan

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Rick DeBay

Her mission was to beach herself on Okinawa, and operate as a giant gun emplacement.
If she did manage to evade the bombers, she would have had to face the naval blockade around Okinawa. I think a couple of battleships were tasked with stopping her, but odds are it would have been a torpedo run by a destroyer that would have done the job.

IMO One thing the Japanese never counted on was if in fact they were able to beach her on Okinawa the list that would have resulted from slamming onto the beach at a high rate of speed could have rendered the mighty guns absolutely useless or even capsized her on the beach from the recoil.If this happened and she capsized on the beach we wouldnt have needed bombing nor torpedoes as she would have done herself in the moment she capsized to port or starboard. A good look at any drydock accident would have produced the very same results i.e. No support on either side and with the boilers still hot and ammo running loose it would have generated a far greater explosion then those witnessed by photographers when she sank.

[RAL's_pal?]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

No support on either side and with the boilers still hot and ammo running loose it would have generated a far greater explosion then those witnessed by photographers when she sank.

IMO, I diagree. I'm pretty sure the Japanese had safeties on their steam systems from the boilers so there shouldn't be any explosions. Eventually the steam pressures would cease, they'd lose their ship service generators, so all electrical, hydraulics, etc; wouldn't operate.

[TopHatter]

Originally Posted by JBG

Mission kill is another concept. The radars and directors etc of the battleships are easily susceptible to missle damage.

True, but IIRC there is redundancy built in for that eventuality

Originally Posted by JBG

As for torpedoes vs AS missles, the best way to sink such a ship is by letting water in rather than letting air in? Especially if you break the ship's back?

Absolutely correct.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by RAL's_pal?

IMO, I diagree. I'm pretty sure the Japanese had safeties on their steam systems from the boilers so there shouldn't be any explosions. Eventually the steam pressures would cease, they'd lose their ship service generators, so all electrical, hydraulics, etc; wouldn't operate.

LTNS you ole yard bird.
Perhaps I should explain. What was meant is that if she went aground or beached I agreee the saftey's certainly would have lifted to relief the boiler pressure. (A common in steam boiler design). But tossing the men in engineereing around against those hot boilers would certainly not have made their job any easier. Now I'm not sure of her boiler train design but I would guess that she was whats considered a "locked" system meaning if one piece of equiptment was turning then the entire equipment set is turning as well as the shaft and props. Once those props dug in on the beach IMO would have wrenced their machinery from their mounts and done untold damage to the structure and crews below probably touching off several fires from broken lines and fuel tank ruptures. This intern may have easily capsized the ship over onto her side just from whip and momentum alone. Therefore rendering the idea of a "static" battery capable of firing from the beach pretty much scrap metal and one hell of a tourist attraction for years to come.

Nice to know your still here Pal.

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by JBG

Wasn't there an experiment where a Harpoon was fired at either an Iowa class or the bow of one ( I'm thinking Kentucky ) where the Harpoon barely scratched the paint?Jonathan

Not hardly. The bow section of an Iowa is not armor plated. They are well built to take on heavy seas or cutting through your own escort destroyers, but not to take on missile hits.

Somebody was just telling you a sea story.

You know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story don't you?

A fairy tale starts "Once upon a time." A sea story starts "Now this ain't no s--t."

[RAL's_pal?]

Originally Posted by RustyBattleship

Somebody was just telling you a sea story.

You know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story don't you?

A fairy tale starts "Once upon a time." A sea story starts "Now this ain't no s--t."

So, the moral of this story is "Don't go elsewhere to hear a story, come here and listen to Uncle cRusty's stories...."

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by RAL's_pal?

So, the moral of this story is "Don't go elsewhere to hear a story, come here and listen to Uncle cRusty's stories...."

EXACTLY. Thank you for your support.

[gunnut]

Rusty check your PM...

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by gunnut

Rusty check your PM...

You're right, what a small world we live in. Yes, I knew him very well and were good friends.