BB trivia

[lurker]

Well to frogmen you can add "Viribus Unitis". Very small bomb placed by (again) Italians.

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Just wondering how many answers I will get from you guys.

When was the first time a US BB used a RPV for target spotting?

If I understand the wording of your question correctly, you are asking which UNITED STATES BATTLESHIPS used a REMOTE PILOTED VEHICLE for target spotting.

Therefore, we are not talking about land or air launched recon vehicles such as the Buffalo used in Viet Nam. The DASH (Drone Anti-Submaring Helicopter) was used on ASW ships such as Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts. It carried a Mk-46 torpedo and sonabuoys to locate and attack an enemy submarine at distances greater than a Mk-48 torpedo could travel. I worked on many ships equipped with DASH and heard lots of not-so-nice stories about it. The worst is that during tests, after dropping the torpedo the center of gravity shifted too quickly. I have heard a number of ship officers complaining that as they were guiding the DASH back to their ship, it would be flying upside down. Duhhhh, not being an expert in helicopters, I'll just leave it at that.

But for the true RPV the first American BB's to use them were the Iowa class before and during the Gulf War. During the War in Lebanon against the Syrians, RPV launch and recovery was from a carrier type ship such as the Guam. New Jersey was then provided the recon data for any fire support needed. Later, all four ships were equipped with RPV launch and recovery systems. I was even tasked to design a deckhouse-hangar-maintenance shop-assembly shop to tuck under the gun barrels of turret III. Iowa and New Jersey used them for preliminary recon along any coastline they wanted to peek at. But in actual combat, only the RPVs off the Missouri and Wisconsin were used. Which one used them first is a "so what?" type of trivia.

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Ok heres a question for you.

What was the longest recorded distance that a battleship engaged its enemy and scored a direct salvo hit among others to sink its enemy. Give the distance and the ships involved.

I don't know how this drifted from RPVs, but here's my answer that was confirmed by a retired GMC-1 from the Korean War (he came out of retirement in the 1980s to serve as a GMMC on New Jersey then retired again later).

As opposed to many other big gun ships, the Iowa Class Battleships could elevate their guns 45 degrees for absolutely maximum range. Many other ships, such as the Bismarck class only had a maximum 35 degree elevation. Unfortunately, engineering calculations and roller bearing failure on the Texas limited the maximum elevation to only 42 degrees so as not to overload the rollers.

But IF the guns were at 45 degrees, they could carry in about 26 miles. At Pusan, Marines were pinned down at a bridge and the North Koreans and Chinese were well protected on the other side of the river in some brick or concrete buildings being used as pill boxes. The Missouri was available for gunfire support but from her position in the harbor the targets would be almost 26 miles and the Captain was only allowed to elevate 42 degrees.

By that time harbor bottom profile was pretty well plotted out so he brought Missouri over a sandbar, ballasted down onto the sandbar and allowed her to list to port 3 to 4 degrees. Relative to the fire plane of the ship (roller path) the guns were only 41 to 42 degrees. But relative to the Earth and with the analog computer also capable of compensating for the correalus effect (how much the Earth moves under the flight of the projectiles) the guns were now at 45 degrees. Her first salvo was directly on target and the Marines radioed back that they could now cross that bridge - "standing upright".

Now DO NOT argue with me on this one. I not only heard it before (and it was briefly touched on in the TV series "Navy Log") but when the Master Chief Gunner's Mate who was there confirmed it, --- well, actually NOBODY argues with a chief.

Even full Captains refrain from it and I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Gun Grape]

Originally Posted by RustyBattleship

If I understand the wording of your question correctly, you are asking which UNITED STATES BATTLESHIPS used a REMOTE PILOTED VEHICLE for target spotting.

Therefore, we are not talking about land or air launched recon vehicles such as the Buffalo used in Viet Nam. The DASH (Drone Anti-Submaring Helicopter) was used on ASW ships such as Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts. It carried a Mk-46 torpedo and sonabuoys to locate and attack an enemy submarine at distances greater than a Mk-48 torpedo could travel. I worked on many ships equipped with DASH and heard lots of not-so-nice stories about it. The worst is that during tests, after dropping the torpedo the center of gravity shifted too quickly. I have heard a number of ship officers complaining that as they were guiding the DASH back to their ship, it would be flying upside down. Duhhhh, not being an expert in helicopters, I'll just leave it at that.

But for the true RPV the first American BB's to use them were the Iowa class before and during the Gulf War. During the War in Lebanon against the Syrians, RPV launch and recovery was from a carrier type ship such as the Guam. New Jersey was then provided the recon data for any fire support needed. Later, all four ships were equipped with RPV launch and recovery systems. I was even tasked to design a deckhouse-hangar-maintenance shop-assembly shop to tuck under the gun barrels of turret III. Iowa and New Jersey used them for preliminary recon along any coastline they wanted to peek at. But in actual combat, only the RPVs off the Missouri and Wisconsin were used. Which one used them first is a "so what?" type of trivia.

Why do you not consider the DASH a Remote Piloted Vehicle?

DASH, as designed was suppose to be a disposable item. Originally tasked with dropping nuclear depth charges. And they are documented as having provided spotting for both destroyers and the Jersey in Nam.

The US Navy did not use RPVs in the root. The Navy didn't deploy RPVs/UAVs until Dec 86. And we were long gone from that sh*thole by then.

[TopHatter]

http://www.gyrodynehelicopters.com/d...l_of_honor.htm

OUR ONLY BATTLESHIP TO OPERATE DASH, was the USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62). While the DASH command and control equipment WAS installed on the NEW JERSEY while she was in Subic Bay in September 1968, the irony is that the equipment was NOT for the ASW version of DASH, but the Gun-Spotting surveillance version of DASH called SNOOPY.
By May 1951, NEW JERSEY was using helicopters operating from aft of her aft turret as gun spotting and rescue aircraft. These aircraft operated where the crane had been used to hoist the former OS2U Kingfisher sea planes from sea and reset them on her aft catapults. These new helicopters were used as she supported ground forces during the Korean war.

For the Vietnam war, the NEW JERSEY was Recommissioned on 6 April 1968. Fitted with improved electronics and an actual helicopter landing pad and with her 40-millimeter battery removed, she was tailored for use as a heavy bombardment ship. Her 16-inch guns, it was expected, would reach targets in Vietnam inaccessible to smaller naval guns and, in foul weather, safe from aerial attack.

It was during this time in September 1968, that the SNOOPY control and telemetry system was installed on the NEW JERSEY while she was berthed in Subic Bay. While NEW JERSEY was not to actually fly the SNOOPY QH-50s FROM her own decks, NEW JERSEY was to operate with destroyers that did. After the QH-50s were flown off the destroyer deck, NEW JERSEY would then take command of the aircraft for gun-spotting. While the basic QH-50 worked well with Destroyers using 5" guns that had a range of 10 miles for shore bombardment, the NEW JERSEY's 16" guns required a longer range QH-50 to accommodate the 22.8 mile range of those guns and loiter time over the targets to be destroyed. While the longer range QH-50D was being tested, the NEW JERSEY entered the fight near the 17th Parallel on 30 September 1968, the dreadnought fired her first shots in battle in over sixteen years.

Firing against Communist targets in and near the so-called Demilitarized Zone (DMZ), her big guns destroyed two gun positions and two supply areas. She fired against targets north of the DMZ the following day, rescuing the crew of a spotting plane forced down at sea by antiaircraft fire.

The next six months self into a steady pace of bombardment and fire support missions along the Vietnamese coast, broken only by brief visits to Subic Bay and replenishment operations at sea. In her first two months on the gun line, New Jersey directed nearly ten thousand rounds of ammunition at Communist targets; over: 3,000 of these shells were 16-inch projectiles.

Her first Vietnam combat tour completed, NEW JERSEY departed Subic Bay 3 April 1969 for Japan. While NEW JERSEY did eventually complete an additional tour of Vietnam, by 22 August 1969 the Secretary of Defense released a list of names of ships to be inactivated and NEW JERSEY was at the top of the list. She sailed for the United States and was decommissioned at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard on 17 December 1969. While the long range version of DASH, as tested on the Sumner class destroyer, USS MOALE (DD-693), was a success, that success was short lived. With the NEW JERSEY now heading for decommissioning, the need for the extended range capable QH-50 was no longer needed and the extended range QH-50 was never placed into production.

[RustyBattleship]

For my old buddy "TopHatter" (who finally coaxed me to sign onto this board), the New Jersey was certainly capable of handling DASH in 1968. However I was the project leader (only a GS-9) at LBNSY to finish up various "fittings" and antenna foundations on the ship and at no time was there mention that DASH was even going to be experimented with.

However, knowing some of the sneaky things the Navy does, I'm not surprised that they "ran DASH up the flag pole and see who would salute." But I never received any official reports back and not even any scuttlebutt stories of it from 1968 BB sailors who re-uped for 1982.

New Jersey did have a new helicopter deck then though only 8 inches above the main deck (in the 80s we put 12-inch high helo decks on the other three though I argued for 24-30 inch high decks so proper welding and preservation could be done through crawl holes). But even as the configuration manager for structural modifications, NAVSEA 05 often reminded me of my limitations. Since the Iowa class only has an 18 foot freeboard back aft (at best) they later agreed we should have gone to higher flight decks but it was too late then.

I LOVE saying, "I told you so" (but ONLY to NAVSEA counterparts I knew would agree with me).

Used as a photo recon vehicle I'm sure was more suitable for DASH as it wouldn't be changing its CG as with a torpedo drop and would come back right side up. But many other strange RPVs were being flaunted then and in the 80s Canada was trying to promote one that looked like the King Kong of all Peanuts.

The Israeli Pathfinder RPV we used during the Gulf War did it's job quite well. The only problem was that the only way we could recover it was to catch it in a gigantic tennis net. Surprisingly, we never lost an RPV on recovery catch.

[RustyBattleship]

For Gun Grape:

Please do not forget I was assigned as configuration manager for the structural modifications of all four Iowa class Battleships in the 1980s and when working in my normal design section (hull and structural) they were still assigned specifically to me. I inspected all four ships for configuration control (LOL - they were so different I could walk around either main deck or second deck and just by groping with my hands I could tell you which ship I was on) and rode sea trials on two of them.

I know what went on them and what didn't (except perhaps in some of the electronics as I'm an ex-sledge hammer mechanic and not a sparktrician). Note one of my postings above that I had to design a hangar for the RPVs that would slip under the gun barrels of turret III. This was a result of a closed door meeting I was in where it was reported that the Captain of one BB reported back (referring to the RPV installation) "Don't go to sea without it."

I was even assigned the task of coming up for a repair procedure for turret II on the Iowa incident.

So believe me, though my memory sometimes forgets I was to pick up strawberries instead of black berries at the market today, I know my Iowas.

And in our configuration office, the manager for mechanical and machinery modifications was Don Wolcott. Don was an ex-Marine who served aboard the Maryland and the North Carolina. He was on North Carolina when the Japanese Long Lance torpedo punched a hole through the external armor belt into the propellent magazine (the water rushed in too fast to set off an explosion though survivors said they saw it start to flash).

Our electrical and electronics configuration manager was a turret gunner in B-29s. Our civilian Supervisor was ex-Navy and served as a gunnery spotter for the Battleships in Korea. Our military supervisor was a Navy Commander who served in Viet Nam (and was the youngest of the group). Our logistics overseer was never in uniform. But at the age of 10 years old he was walking to Sunday school one day at EWA and wound up outrunning Japanese machinegun bullets on December 7th, 1941.

Though my uniform said U.S. ARMY on it (I was a tank driver), I will however say this to you, SEMPER FI. We are all in this together no matter what service .

And thanks for letting me blow off some steam. It was getting to be an awfully boring day.

[sparten]

Originally Posted by TopHatter

Hmmm....let's see. I know that HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Valiant were sunk at their moorings by Italian frogmen in December 1941.

You could probably include Tirpitz to some extent, though she was not sunk.

I guess that's what you are referring to: Naval mines or "human-placed" explosives.

The Battleship (Dreadnought that is), which was sunk by a mine, was HMS Audacious by a German mine near Scarpa Flow in 1914!

The Italians are pretty good in sinking battleships in underhanded ways, they sank two Austrian ones back in 1918 in similar ways to the Queen Elizabeth.

[sparten]

Which is the only Battleship to have sunk a U-Boat?

[RustyBattleship]

Originally Posted by sparten

Which is the only Battleship to have sunk a U-Boat?

That would have had to have been the Massachussettes at the battle of Casablanca. She took out four of them, I believe, while still in their pens.

Sunk in open sea or sunk pierside is still SUNK.

Now, you may argue that they were Vichy French subs instead of Nazi Undersee boots. An enemy under any flag is still an enemy and if those subs were under German command, then they were U-boats even if they were built by Irish Leprecahns.

[Gun Grape]

Originally Posted by RustyBattleship

For Gun Grape:

Please do not forget I was assigned as configuration manager for the structural modifications of all four Iowa class Battleships in the 1980s and when working in my normal design section (hull and structural) they were still assigned specifically to me. I inspected all four ships for configuration control (LOL - they were so different I could walk around either main deck or second deck and just by groping with my hands I could tell you which ship I was on) and rode sea trials on two of them.

I know what went on them and what didn't (except perhaps in some of the electronics as I'm an ex-sledge hammer mechanic and not a sparktrician). Note one of my postings above that I had to design a hangar for the RPVs that would slip under the gun barrels of turret III. This was a result of a closed door meeting I was in where it was reported that the Captain of one BB reported back (referring to the RPV installation) "Don't go to sea without it."

I was even assigned the task of coming up for a repair procedure for turret II on the Iowa incident.

So believe me, though my memory sometimes forgets I was to pick up strawberries instead of black berries at the market today, I know my Iowas.



Though my uniform said U.S. ARMY on it (I was a tank driver), I will however say this to you, SEMPER FI. We are all in this together no matter what service .

And thanks for letting me blow off some steam. It was getting to be an awfully boring day.

Sir,I have no doubt that you know your Iowas. But on this you are wrong. The only people that had RPVs in Beirut were the IDF.

The reason that the N/MC team got RPVs is that during a visit to the airport by FMFLant a IDF Commander showed him a overhead photo of him touring the area that was taken by a RPV.

Gen Grey went nuts, but also realized what a great asset it would be for , at the time, MAU commanders. And especially for fire support. One of the justifications that the Navy gave for the RPV idea was the piss poor shooting that they did in the root. Dec 1986 is when they went into service.

I can also say that USS Guam did not carry or launch RPVs off the coast of Lebanon. There were none on her. I was on that trip. Not used there or that island resort we stopped at for some R&R.

[TopHatter]

Originally Posted by sparten

Which is the only Battleship to have sunk a U-Boat?

That would probably be HMS Dreadnought, which sank one by ramming.

[sparten]

Yes, TH your are correct. The Dreadnought did not partake in operations with the Grand Fleet, in the Great War, but she did achieve a first, and sunk a U Boat.

And, I believe Rusty Battleship is also correct about the Mamie's actions of Casablanca, though I confess I myself did not remember them.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by sparten

Yes, TH your are correct. The Dreadnought did not partake in operations with the Grand Fleet, in the Great War, but she did achieve a first, and sunk a U Boat.

And, I believe Rusty Battleship is also correct about the Mamie's actions of Casablanca, though I confess I myself did not remember them.

Big Mamie would have been my first guess.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by TopHatter

Hey, this is a great thread idea! Let's keep it going.

Here is an easy one... What Japanese class of superbattleships carried sonar?

Yamato is my guess. She was the most modern and the flagship of the class.