BB trivia

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

The Des Moines were in service up until something like the early 80s weren't they?

USS Des Moines (CA-134) : decom 07/06/61, stricken 07/09/91.

USS Salem (CA-139) : decom 01/30/59, stricken 07/12/91.

USS Newport News (CA-148) : decom 06/27/75, stricken 07/31/78.

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

The Des Moines class had some very special 8" guns. (...) they were the most accurate (...) 8" guns ever mounted on any US (...) hull.

Like I said earlier (post #64 in this thread), the 8"/55 Mark-12/14/15 (bags) and the 8"/55RF Mark-16 (cartridges) had essentially the same dispersion.

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

The Des Moines class had some very special 8" guns. (...) they were the (...) longest ranged (...) 8" guns ever mounted on any US (...) hull.

The 8"/55 Mark-12 and the 8"/55RF Mark-16 had the same max. ranges, i.e. :

* 30,050 yards @ 41° with the 335lbs AP Mark-21

* 29,800 yards @ 41° with the 260lbs HC Mark-25/26

On a side-note, the longest 8" NGF missions in USN service were fired by the Mark-12.

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

The Des Moines class had some very special 8" guns. (...) they were the most accurate (...) 8" guns ever mounted on any US chassis.

The 8" M110 SPH (any version) actually had a MUCH BETTER dispersion than the 8" US naval guns (any version).

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

If there were, suffice it to say that the accuracy of the 16" guns would be vastly improved.

Vastly ?!?! How much ?!?! What's your rationale here ?!?!

[Gun Grape]

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

Are you saying that what the 5" popshooters did after February 7, 1984 was something they hadn't done before, especially at Suq Al Gharb ?

Or perhaps you're specifically referring to USS New Jersey, the typical instance the wrong tool in the wrong place at the wrong time IMO ?

What I am saying is that after 7 Feb all indirect fire support, was allowed to fire into places that had previously off limits. That being built up areas. The EXCEPTION TO THAT RULE WAS SaG. The only built up area prior to 7 Feb that was cleared for indirect fire.

While the Reagan Admin could say that firing into SaG in support of the LAF was within the standing RoE, everyone knew that was BS. It was a nice way not to have to go before congress (again) to justify the escalation or have the War Powers Act challenged.

It always pissed me off, that somehow Reagan (as the NCA) would allow us to fire rounds into SaG when LAF soldiers needed rounds, BUT denied that same fire support to a Marine patrol pinned down in east Beirut. On more than one occasion.

[Gun Grape]

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

The 8" M110 SPH (any version) actually had a MUCH BETTER dispersion than the 8" US naval guns (any version).

Apples and oranges.

The M-110A2 8" Howitzer with the M201A1 tube was the most accurate howitzer in the world.

But you are comparing a gun with a howitzer vice a gun with a gun.

Compare any naval gun with either the M-107 175mm gun or the M1918 costal Gun. You will find dispersion to be about the same. A little better because they were not fired on a moving,rotating axis(ship).

Guns are great for direct fire, A howitzer will beat them every time for long range, indirect fires.

[ArmchairGeneral]

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Apples and oranges.

The M-110A2 8" Howitzer with the M201A1 tube was the most accurate howitzer in the world.

But you are comparing a gun with a howitzer vice a gun with a gun.

Compare any naval gun with either the M-107 175mm gun or the M1918 costal Gun. You will find dispersion to be about the same. A little better because they were not fired on a moving,rotating axis(ship).

Guns are great for direct fire, A howitzer will beat them every time for long range, indirect fires.

So what makes a howitzer a howitzer? High angle fire? And what's a gun-howitzer? A long barreled howitzer? Or a gun that fires at a higher angle than usual?

[Gun Grape]

Originally Posted by ArmchairGeneral

So what makes a howitzer a howitzer? High angle fire? And what's a gun-howitzer? A long barreled howitzer? Or a gun that fires at a higher angle than usual?

A Howitzer is capable of firing both high and low angle fire and has a med velocity.

Gun-Howitzers are now just commonly referred to as Howitzers.

In the old days a Howitzer had a barrel less than 30 Calibers and fired high angle.

A Gun-Howitzer had a longer barrel and could fire high/low angle. What is commonly called a Howitzer nowdays since we quit developing "Howitzers" after WW2.

Does that exxplain it or did I confuse you even more? (I've been known to do that)

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

What I am saying is that after 7 Feb all indirect fire support, was allowed to fire into places that had previously off limits. That being built up areas. The EXCEPTION TO THAT RULE WAS SaG. The only built up area prior to 7 Feb that was cleared for indirect fire.

The question was whether after February 7, 1984, 5" popshooters did something they hadn't done before, e.g. whether they actually did fire into built-up areas after February 7, 1984.

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Apples and oranges.

The M-110A2 8" Howitzer with the M201A1 tube was the most accurate howitzer in the world.

But you are comparing a gun with a howitzer vice a gun with a gun.

Apples and oranges ?!?!

* the M110A2 with M106 projectile & M188A1 zone 9 charge has a MV of 2,510 fps and a max. range of ~25,600 yards.

* the 8"/55RF Mark-16 with Mark-26 shell has a MV of 2,700 fps and a max. range of 29,800 yards.

At max. range, the M110A2 actually had a MUCH BETTER dispersion than the 8"/55RF Mark-16, roll/pitch/yaw inherent to a NGF platform accounting for less than 25% of the difference.

[ArmchairGeneral]

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

A Howitzer is capable of firing both high and low angle fire and has a med velocity.

Gun-Howitzers are now just commonly referred to as Howitzers.

In the old days a Howitzer had a barrel less than 30 Calibers and fired high angle.

A Gun-Howitzer had a longer barrel and could fire high/low angle. What is commonly called a Howitzer nowdays since we quit developing "Howitzers" after WW2.

Does that exxplain it or did I confuse you even more? (I've been known to do that)

So howitzers have lower muzzle velocity and higher maximum elevation?

[Anon]

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

Vastly ?!?! How much ?!?! What's your rationale here ?!?!

Take a M1A NM rifle and fire M80 ball ammo for grouping. Let it cool. Then group it using M852.

When you're done, you'll know what my rationale is.

[Anon]

Originally Posted by Shipwreck

Apples and oranges ?!?!

Yes, apples and oranges.

A gun's accuracy has far more to do with it's velocity or max ballistic range.

One cannot call a comparison of weapons where one is using WWII era ammo vs another which is using modern high tech ammo "fair", such as is the case when comparing the 16"/50 to the excellent SAI 155mm.

Unless they're a moron.

You a moron Shipwreck?

[Shipwreck]

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Take a M1A NM rifle and fire M80 ball ammo for grouping. Let it cool. Then group it using M852.

When you're done, you'll know what my rationale is.

Are you somehow trying to say that there is no difference between your M1A NM rifle and a 16"/50 Mark-7 (calibers aside of course) ?