Looking for a South Dakota Armor diagram

[petsan]

I found this picture (actually in two parts) somewhere on net, dont remember if it was here,

Was wondering if anyone knows what book this came from (I thought i had them all,,, wrong) the picture is very blurry and I would like to get a better (sharper image) of this it is very very interesting because it shows the actual placing and thickness of South Dakota heavy armor individual plates...(and by relations an Iowa)..
the only hint is the writer W.Jurens.....



Any help please

[Dreadnought]

IMO, Something about that drawing doesnt seem right.

For instance, The Iowas were 887' x" long and carried 215 frames in the hull structure. At 4' spacings that should have equated to roughtly 221.75 frames which we know that it is not the case given the steering gear compartment and rounding of the stern section. There are 215 frames to the Iowas. There should also be at minumum 27' to stern tip (6.75 frames at 4')= 27'0

I conclude this since the port side rudder room ends at Frame 203
a pic is here:
http://www.bb62museum.org/images/BBNJ24.JPG

So we are looking at minimum 48 more feet before stern.

The South Dakota's were 680' long. If the same design in theory carried through (which many "experts" claim) then at 4' frame spacings she should have been at 163.25 Frames equaling 653'0". With a minimum 27 feet left to stern tip at 680'0" total. This can also throw out where that schematic states the armor plating is actually placed.

Please, dont get me wrong but I think the amount of frame numbers on that drawing are correct, but its representation as far as placement of the ships spaces in that drawing that is not correct. Meaning they are expressing it as close to frame 170 on the very stern tip. That should not be the case and there should be room for the rounded stern section.

IMO, What I would do is request that info from the USS Massachusettes. Im sure if you are nice they will provide it for you if they get time. One should also check the last frame number in the Steering Gear compartment.

There are some things I need to check and I will post in time to come.

Rusty, care to chime in?

[Dreadnought]

Hmm, I checked the Bu Ships print #461571 dated 13 Nov 1942 of the main deck access and structure configuration. At approximately frame 167 if not Frame 167 itself should be the center of the aircraft crane on the deck. In the above composition for the armor plating IMO, the drawing is indeed slighly off in the "right" direction. Leading me to believe the rest of the outline is slightly shifted in that print. If you dropped a line from the guideline Frame chart above it , you would clearly see what I am trying to relate.

A very nice job on it though to whomever drafted it.

Sorry, it just didnt look right by the numbers.

http://navsource.org/archives/01/pdf/015706h.pdf

The print for you to look at.

[USSWisconsin]

very interesting drawings - unlike the Iowa's (I am glad there are many pictures of these plans - a lot of them thanks to Rusty and Dread) the SoDak's don't seem to get as much coverage- I'd like to see more plans myself - the boilers on this class are especially interesting - the way they fit them in so tight...

[RustyBattleship]

Rusty, care to chime in?

Just how old do you think I am? Actually, when LBNSY was shipped all of the Battleship drawings, it included a reel of micro-film of the North Carolina. I copied a few drawings off of it and sent it to the ship as they showed quad turrets of 14" guns and the propeller/twin keel arrangement was different than the final product.

The South Dakota class ships were marvels of compartment arrangement for the main propulsion machinery. I would suggest you check Freedman's book on Battlships. He includes an awful lot of historical detail. Sometimes too much but then in this case it just might be what you need.

It's too late tonight for me to look up my copy. Had to go to the Veterans Day Parade committee meeting as a representative of my American Legion post. Then back to our local VFW post to grab something to eat.

[Dreadnought]

Just how old do you think I am? Actually, when LBNSY was shipped all of the Battleship drawings, it included a reel of micro-film of the North Carolina. I copied a few drawings off of it and sent it to the ship as they showed quad turrets of 14" guns and the propeller/twin keel arrangement was different than the final product.

The South Dakota class ships were marvels of compartment arrangement for the main propulsion machinery. I would suggest you check Freedman's book on Battlships. He includes an awful lot of historical detail. Sometimes too much but then in this case it just might be what you need.

It's too late tonight for me to look up my copy. Had to go to the Veterans Day Parade committee meeting as a representative of my American Legion post. Then back to our local VFW post to grab something to eat.

Your only as old as you feel.

I figured many things would still be locked in that brain from enough "midnight acquistions" from the others in the early 1980's to put them back into service and since you were indeed aboard the Massachusetts, North Carlolina etc I figured you might have kept some very good notes on them.

[Dreadnought]

Petsan, In all fairness no one person knows that information in detail. You may see a profile picture of it and many "translations" but not a scaled drawing like many propose above to be record. That is unless they can reference all Bu Ships records and give a definitive source of record and Bu Ships drawing numbers which I have yet to see in detail in anyones book but there are those that have seen. Few are here on WAB. Everything else is speculatitive and this is why you will find so many arguements on these topics in every forum that is Navy and concerning battleships. The Bu Ships & USN never released that information for public eyes to see in detail with close exception to those that have had to reassemble them after modification or repair.

The only ones that have the clearest record is the USN immediately after WWII. They interviewed and interogated actual IJN Officers and survivors that were there onboard when it was sinking as well as damage reports made during the sinking and also had those from the design side interviewed and interogated and recreate the drawing schematics of these ships.

The USN also studied the surviving ships in ship yards, pulled their turrets, radars etc and took their own ships records from them before sinking them against the A bombs in "Crossroads". They were well studied while under sail from the US yards to Bikini Atoll.

By the time Germany capitilated those records much like the IJN had perished in fires and that why it was so important for the USN to grab the ones still alive and fresh in their memory and interview those that did survive the sinkings and the designers.

You will notice there is also no record of the Kriegsmarine ships armor schematic available from a reliable source that we have seen yet either. Many are as we mentioned "speculative". But that never stops the writings.

So literally, many of these books have nothing to offer as far as absolute truth unless they have those references, can put their hands on the actual ship in depth or have the Bu Ships prints or USN documentation that follows in detail reference.

I have seen many sites that proclaim the flooding capabilities as well for the Iowas, North Carolinias, Yamato, Musashi, Bismark etc which IMO is just falasy since they were never present to see them go down nor have they any record, interview with ships company or proof of these drawings to reference as originals.

We (as in a few) do our best here because we have spent so much time with them from building/modifying to serving to sailing to showing and all that lies inbetween.

[petsan]

Hey guys thanks, as always for the help

I tracked down Bill Jurens the author of the drawing at K-Bismarck
and he was nice enough to tell me where to find better prints of this....

in Warship International No 3, 2006
and Warship International No. 4, 2006

Alas I cannot get these back issues from INRO because thay dont have them on their website
and they dont answer their phones, but Ill keep trying

If any brothers here at WAB would be willing to sell them if they had them,
I would be much obliged

Thanks all
Pete

[USSWisconsin]

Garzke & Dunlin United States Battleships 1935-1992

[petsan]

Thanks Wisco, but I have the book already...

[Dreadnought]

Thanks Wisco, but I have the book already...

Just take them with a grain of salt.

[USSWisconsin]

Thanks Wisco, but I have the book already...

Ok, perhaps others haven't seen this - I don't have those Warship Magazines, perhaps a library does?

[Dreadnought]

Ok, perhaps others haven't seen this - I don't have those Warship Magazines, perhaps a library does?

They are diffacult to find. You may get lucky online by searching Google Books. I have seen a few there but many incomplete series.

[USSWisconsin]

Back Issues

I see they aren't here - but there is some pretty cool stuff here - I also find them on Amazon from time to time.

[petsan]

OK Heres the mag update..........

I kept hunting those back issues and finally got through to the magazines people.....the issues are not on website but call them and they will send to you fast..
I recieved my back issues today and all I have to say is that that anyone who has "BATTLESHIPS ON THE BRAIN" as I do, must get these issues for their collection
the diagrams on the South Dakota (Iowa proxy) are large, with some Two-paged and excellent and have waaaay more details than both GulinDarzke and/or Friedmans books on the subject.........the new number for INRO Warships International is.....

I ordered 11 issues there goes my Friday night.......reading glasses on


Contact Information
Business Office Manager : David Sullivan
Office Hours: Monday - Friday 9AM - 3:30PM EST
Telephone : New NUMBER ......508-799-9229
available at $8.25 per single issue, Postpaid to U.S. Residents

Part I of "The Washington Naval Treaty and the Armor and Protective Plating of USS Massachusetts"
was published in Warship International No 3, 2006 on pages 273-309.
Part II was published in Warship International No. 4, 2006 on pages 395-435.