Ask An Expert- Battleships

[NavyDoc]

That would be a 14"/45 gun from USS Arizona.

Me bad!! When you are trained to tell a 24 gauge needle from a 20, them big monstrous things are a little out of my realm! To me once you get up to that size, I'm usually wrong!
Thank you for correcting me. The subject matter deserves accuracy! Especially since we are talking about the Arizona.

[Dreadnought]

Don't need ship yard logs. Every tube in inventory since at least WW1 has a "Gun Book" assigned. It details tube history, rounds fired, relining, ships assigned ect... It will be on site with the other custody documents.

Agreed Gunny. There is no doubt a record of if this tube was ever aboard Missouri and she was only regunned once since. As you would no doubt know this and exactly where those number lye. The year stamping alone would give a clue as to when, as the New Jerseys were for Vietnam. They are all updated according to service. A Gunny from that era would both know and record having resposibility for them. I figured it would have been easier to obtain from the yard (Norfolk) instead of "the book", I dont know who hold that record of the book and they never mentioned before they proclaim such. Most dont even know there were more tubes and numbering then many think contemplating the last two Iowas (Kentucky, Illionois) going into service before being scrapped. For the intinial set of the 4 Iowa class there had to have been atleast one full change out and spares not too mention the two that never saw service. No doubt additional Mk 7's were produced for them + spares.

I just question anyone that states this weapon was from a certain ship without divulging a slight bit of information on how they know it came from that ship. Please excuse the ignorance it shows.

[Dreadnought]

An example of one inspected last prior to decommisioning to regun New Jersey for 1969 if she had served further tours on the gun line during Vietnam although it bears the hallmarks of earlier inspections for WWII and the Korean War in addition weight, place of manufacture and its number sequence. Things a Gunny already knows .

[Dreadnought]

They apparently have some pretty good records at the NSW center in VA. This is one of Arizona's 16" barrels that was removed for re-lining before December 7th. The link is a story I may have found elsewhere here!
Attachment 28460
Attachment 28461

Remembering Pearl Harbor: Arizona seeks gun from battleship Arizona - latimes.com

No offense Doc but I would want to see the documents, for all they know in just stating it outright it could have easily have come from the Pennsylvania. She served as flag as well and no doubt would have worn a set of barrels during gunnery practice just like Arizona. Most dont know that two of Arizona's barrels after Dec 7th went on to serve aboard USS Nevada's regunning. Its all in the documentation.

Pennsylvania was fully regunned at Hunters Point 1945.

[NavyDoc]

No offense Doc but I would want to see the documents, for all they know in just stating it outright it could have easily have come from the Pennsylvania. She served as flag as well and no doubt would have worn a set of barrels during gunnery practice just like Arizona. Most dont know that two of Arizona's barrels after Dec 7th went on to serve aboard USS Nevada's regunning. Its all in the documentation.

Pennsylvania was fully regunned at Hunters Point 1945.

No offense ever taken Dread!
The story in the LA Times did say that this barrel from the Arizona was taken off for relining in 38 and then used on the Nevada in 42. It also says that this barrel was on the Nevada for D-Day! Sounds to me like they have the records!
Now, there is a piece of steel with history attached! From the Arizona and then at Normandy on the Nevada!!
The story also states that they have one of Missouri's barrels as well in VA.

[Dreadnought]

The reason I mention this is because about two years ago Dahlgren Armory donated two (out of three) of Pennsylvania's 14"/45 rifles they had in storage to a museum in upstate PA. They disclosed the information of how they knew it was belonging to Pennsylvania. Obviously they still had the records.

I was wondering if this was not the third barrel in the article you posted that is mentioned below.

BB History to go on display...
News > Local Monday, Aug 6, 2007

Massive guns find new glory

By Chris Rosenblum - crosenbl@centredaily.com

A forward guns of the USS Pennsylvania. Photos: Provided by USN.

BOALSBURG -- More than 200 miles from the nearest ocean, the mighty guns of the USS Pennsylvania once again will point skyward.

For decades, the battleship's 14-inch gun barrels have rested in a field at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Dahlgren, Va., forgotten relics waiting to be scrapped.

But thanks to a deal between the Navy and the Pennsylvania Military Museum, a memorial, not a meltdown, is in store for two of the steel behemoths.

A year from now, they're expected to arrive at the museum's grounds to honor the onetime flagship that survived Pearl Harbor, a Japanese torpedo and an atomic bomb. Museum officials envision the barrels stretching almost 53 feet toward Boalsburg -- a two-gun salute to a warrior lying on the Pacific Ocean floor, scuttled in the end.

"They're the last vestige of a great ship," said Dave Rhoades, a museum volunteer who has led the charge to obtain the barrels. "They can be saved, and they will be saved."

It won't come easy -- or cheap.

Before they're shipped by truck, the barrels must be thoroughly cleaned and sandblasted. Their weight, 66 tons each, will require a heavy-duty crane at both ends of the trip. All told, transportation costs could reach at least $55,000 in funds raised by the Friends of the Pennsylvania Military Museum.

The Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission will contribute roughly an equal amount to mount the repainted guns on a concrete pedestal and house them in a partial mockup of a turret. Plans also call for a stone outline of the hull -- which could span two football fields -- and an exhibit of ship artifacts inside the museum.

The main attraction, though, undoubtedly will be the massive tubes, once capable of hurling a 1,500 pound armor-piercing shell 20 miles in less than a minute. Picture a VW Beetle shot from Boalsburg to Lewistown.

Joe Horvath, a museum educator, hopes visitors will imagine the sunny chaos of a Pearl Harbor morning or the roar and smoke of salvos launched toward Pacific islands, by inspecting and touching links to an epic time.

"You can read books, but until you see one of the guns in person, you don't know what it was all about," he said.

A legendary history

She slid into the Chesapeake Bay in 1915, the pride of the Navy.

BB-38, nicknamed the "Pennsy," embarked on her shakedown cruise a year later as the lead ship in her class of "super-dreadnoughts" -- four triple turrets, 14 inches of hull armor amidships, four propellers churning out a maximum 21 knots.

After World War I, which she sat out, the Pennsy became the flagship of the Atlantic and Pacific fleets at different points, sailing the seas on maneuvers and training exercises.

On Dec. 7, 1941, she sat in dry dock for repairs as the sun rose over Pearl Harbor.

Bombs tumbled down, and the Pennsy's crew, among the first to react, sent streams of fire toward the Japanese planes strafing the docks. A blast destroyed one of her gun casements. Others shattered two nearby destroyers, flinging a torpedo tube back into the battleship.

Across the water, her sister ship, the USS Arizona, detonated and swiftly sank with more than 1,000 casualties.

Fifteen of the Pennsy's sailors died that day, but she lived to fight on. Attu and Kiska. Kwajalein. Enwietok. Pelieu. Saipan. Guam. The Philippines. One island at a time, she followed the bloody march toward Japan, her guns blasting beaches, ridges, jungles, even several Japanese tanks once.

In support of the amphibious landings, she received eight battle stars and a Navy Unit Commendation.

And one torpedo.

It struck her off Okinawa, three days before the war's end. Twenty sailors died. A wide hole in her stern left her crippled, decks barely above the waves. Towed to Guam at first, she later struggled back to the Puget Sound Navy Yard.

But her service wasn't done.

At the Bikini Atoll, she withstood the fury of a nuclear test. So much radiation bathed her that the Navy had no choice.

Her last voyage, in 1948, was to the bottom.

Hidden treasure

Fifty-four years later, the Pennsy figured in another mission.

One day in 2002, an officer who had worked at the Naval Surface Warfare Center visited the Pennsylvania Military Museum with interesting news. He had discovered that some of the Pennsy's 14-inch barrels, removed during a 1945 overhaul, had been at the center since shortly after the war.

Then came the kicker: The barrels were slated for recycling. Would the museum, the officer wondered, want them?

Bill Leech, the museum director, was all ears.

"I contacted my superiors in Harrisburg, and they thought it was a great idea," he said.

Upon learning of the museum's interest, the Navy put a hold on the guns. Beyond that, however, it needed more time to sign on.

Under the Navy's Artifact Loan Program, museums and other organizations can borrow archived or stored material for years -- provided the Naval Historical Center in Washington, D.C., approves. Among other criteria, the center examines a museum's finances and track record before lending objects.

"We want to make sure they're displayed appropriately and accurately, and also that the (museum) has the means to get them where they need to be," said Mark Wertheimer, head of the center's curator branch. "Because we don't deliver."

In this case, the Pennsylvania Military Museum passed muster.

"The fact that this is an official museum of the commonwealth, it kind of gives that extra validity we need," Wertheimer said.

For five years, Leech, his staff and a volunteer committee chased their dream, raising money, ironing out details with the Navy and the PHMC. They considered emulating the Imperial War Museum in London and mounting the barrels by themselves but liked the turret's appearance and teaching potential better. Costs nixed a third barrel to round out the battery.

In the meantime, barrel No. 22L4, forged by the Midvale Steel Co. outside Philadelphia, waits alongside barrel No. 28L3 in Virginia grass. From different front turrets, both have remained intact -- unlike others in the yard that were either cut up or modified for tests.

"It's great to be able to send them to someone who can display them," said Rebecca Sullivan, branch head of the Potomac River Test Range, which oversees the barrels.

After the last notes of the exhibit's dedication ceremony fade next summer, the barrels probably will attract Navy veterans such as Bob Baldwin, a retired officer and museum volunteer. He looks forward to gazing at the history he helped preserve.

"I'll be proud of the naval service in defense of the country, all the way back to the Revolutionary War," he said.

Such responses are sure to please Leech.

"We're really excited about this project," he said. "It gets us fulfilling our expanding mission to honor veterans of all the services, not just the Army. We really felt we needed to get a major naval exhibit out there, and we feel this will do that."

[Dreadnought]

No offense ever taken Dread!
The story in the LA Times did say that this barrel from the Arizona was taken off for relining in 38 and then used on the Nevada in 42. It also says that this barrel was on the Nevada for D-Day! Sounds to me like they have the records!
Now, there is a piece of steel with history attached! From the Arizona and then at Normandy on the Nevada!!
The story also states that they have one of Missouri's barrels as well in VA.

*My only problem with this is Nevada was regunned in late 1944 after the Normandy Landings post Pearl Harbor and later Operation Dragoon. Later sailing for New York for her gun change out and then onto Iwo Jima. That is the only regunning on record for her. After WWII closed she was part of the Bikinni tests so she went down with her main battery. If it belonged to Arizona then she rests with them.

See my problem here?

BB-36 Nevada – Late (Sept-Dec 1944) Brooklyn Navy Yard.

[NavyDoc]

That could work though! The barrel was removed from Arizona in 38 for relining, put on Nevada and then removed in 44.
But, I feel your pain! When one realizes (as I got to experience) the "wonderful world" of military medical records, there's no telling what reality or true accuracy really is!

[Dreadnought]

That could work though! The barrel was removed from Arizona in 38 for relining, put on Nevada and then removed in 44.
But, I feel your pain! When one realizes (as I got to experience) the "wonderful world" of military medical records, there's no telling what reality or true accuracy really is!

Doc, I guees the only question I would have is where exactly was Nevada regunned. Her history only shows her being regunned once in late 1944 in Brooklyn. There is no mention of her being regunned prior to that. This is why I state that if she did recieve barrels that were aboard the Arizona it would have happened late 1944, then she no doubt sank with them after Iowa and a few heavy cruisers worked her over after the Bikinni tests.

If they have a rifle from Arizona then it never made it aboard the Nevada and was no doubt kept in storage. Keep in mind that Nevada had two less barrels in the main battery (10) then Arizona had with 12. And as far as I have known only two made it aboard Nevada. They were in turret #2 and went to the bottom with her.

I would just like to see the documentation on the barrels. It could obviously clear up some questions.

[Ken_NJ]

On my visits to the BB NJ and Massachusetts, I've been in the turrets and can see how cramped the quarters are. In this picture of the Nevada, it appears the guns are not parallel to each other. Is that an illusion of the picture? Also, the guns seem to be quite close to each other compared to the NJ. How cramped where the breech area in a turret of a ship of a Nevada class BB of the time?

[NavyDoc]

Good luck with that one! With the way they protect their "historical" records, it's doubtful anyone would be able to catalog and verify the lineage of such important artifacts.
It follows the arse backwards way they do things. They want an organization to come up with millions before they will allow them to "borrow" a historical ship. Yet when they can not, they'll spend millions more to sink it as a reef! Or, they with sell it for $300k to the scrappers (sorry, I meant recyclers)! Then when they do "lend" a ship to a museum, they want nothing more to do with any associated costs or repairs! But, you can't do this and you can't do that!
There needs to be a total revamp of how things are done. It should be if you want it, come and get it and then it's your problem! We no longer have anything to do with it! To demonstrate the point I hold up our ship and the LST325 as examples. They are a couple of only a few not owned by the Navy anymore. Compare them to the other museum ships that are!
It's a good thing for the museums that want the barrels that they don't have to be kept in the water!
We are just very lucky that Iowa has a crack team on her side!


Sorry, I had to rant! The situation with the ships that represent the sacrifice of the men that served on them is just saddening!

[Dreadnought]

The Nevada, Arizona, Pennsylavania and all of the USN BB's of that time period had one slide for the guns and no turret gunroom seperation. In other words they could not elevate the barrels seperately from each other. Their dispersion was wider. After the USN started the BB building programs again (the collapse of the Washington Treaty), they adopted multiple gunroom, gun, and magazine seperations as a safety precautions. They also adopted seperate mounting slides on the main battery rifles. This allowed each gun to be elevated seperately from the rest in the turret. It also allowed for faster regunning once un-yoked. Gun spacing was also increased due to these safety measures. From the centerline of the center gun to the centerline of both left and right gun the distance is 122 inches on the Iowas. They recieved an updated turret design during their building, different in some aspects from the North Carolina's and South Dakota's. Their centline to centerline distance of the guns would be slighty shorter then those of the Iowas because they are not as wide as the Iowas.

If you are speaking about crampedness in the gun room of the turret keep in mind turrets also have the manual rangefinders. These take up alot of room against the bulkead and span the gunroom. Turret 1 on the Iowas does no longer have the manual rangefinder. Turrets 2 & 3 do. The other BB museums should still have them intact.

[Builder 2010]

Couldn't have said it better myself. In the movie Under Siege, while the gun breech and loading tray looked pretty authentic, it was all out in the open, not enclosed in a gun room. My question is, "Was that some training facility somewhere, or did they mock up the working end of a 16" gun for the movie, because it certainly wasn't on a real ship?"

Someday, I'd like to build a 1/35th scale cutaway model of the gun house and barbette. It would be very cool to do it in metal. Someday... but not today.

[Dreadnought]

Couldn't have said it better myself. In the movie Under Siege, while the gun breech and loading tray looked pretty authentic, it was all out in the open, not enclosed in a gun room. My question is, "Was that some training facility somewhere, or did they mock up the working end of a 16" gun for the movie, because it certainly wasn't on a real ship?"

Imo, a mock up, some things were accurate though as far as bulkhead fittings (ladder was wrong as well) they left out the knee knockers, at the CEC entrance before that ladder and the location of the exit was definately incorrect. The turrets were definately a mock up. But hey, its the movies.

It is told that a few BB's were used in filming for the movie.

[Builder 2010]

All the live action, exterior shots were done on the Alabama, and I would presume some of the interior shots as well. It's hard to tell sometimes if a set is real or fake. It's interesting to look at the "making of Star Wars" and on the raw footage hearing them walk around on an obviously wooden set with plywood floors, and then hear the actual edited version and they're clanking around on a steel deck with the correct reverberations, etc. The sound engineering is amazing.