How would WWI have been different without Tirpitz?

[USSWisconsin]

I have been reading about WWII with naval and general accounts from both British and German perspectives, and the High Seas Fleet seems to have been a major factor in the war, both as a cause and an influencial factor on the outcome.

How do you think WWI would have been changed by the abscence of Alfred Tirpitz (the architect of the High Seas Fleet)?

[USSWisconsin]

A few things that Tirpitz was responsible or irresponsible for

The rapid growth of the the High Seas Fleet was not accompanied by the same type of sailor's living conditions reforms intitiated by Fisher in the RN

The Germans had officers, deck officers, and engineering officers - only the officers had full priveledges, the deck and engineering officers were considered petty officers, and had lower pay and more austare benifits, they were subordinate to even junior "executive" officers and were not members of the officers mess, their mess and berthing was with the crew. Promotion of deck and engineering officers was severly limited - they were not allowed to command ships or even regular officers. This led to serious shortages of experienced men in these positions. The "executive" officiers positions were normally open to the wealthy, since the candidate or his family had to finance his education and expenses. While the engineering officers faced similar expenses and needed considerably more education, they did not recieve comparable rewards or opportunities.

Normal enlistment was 3 yrs in the Kaiserlicht Marine, vs 12 yrs in the RN, experience was in short supply.

While the German armored ships were very survivable, their tight compartmentalization led to poor ventilation and unhealthy living conditions for the crews. Food for the men was also years behind the RN.

References
Luxury Fleet: Holger Herwig (primary)
Jutland, the German Perspective: V.E. Tarrant
Castles of Steel: Robert Massie
Dreadnought: Robert Massie

[USSWisconsin]

Alfred von Tirpitz (1849 – 1930) German Grand Admiral, Secretary of State of the Imperial Naval Office 1897 - 1916, he joined the Prussian Navy in 1865. Tirpitz drafted the Naval Laws that enabled the German Battleship buildup, starting with a modest fleet and then doubling it a few years later. Advocated building heavily armored ships, which were qualitatively superior to their British counterparts, except in the caliber of their guns. Advocated unrestricted submarine warfare following the battle of Jutland. Resignationed in 1916 due to a disagreement with Kaiser Wilhelm II. Served in the Reichstag from 1924 – 1928.

Tirpitz was the key person who transformed Wilhelm II's dream of a navy to rival the British from a fantasy to a reality. The cost to Germany was massive. Following Wilhelm II's rise to the throne in 1888, which followed his father's 3 month reign, the new Kaiser was initially unsuccessful in implementing his naval ambitions. In 1892 Tirpitz wrote a naval plan, impressed by Tirpitz, the Kaiser soon established a special Naval Office and placed Tirpitz at the head of it.

The German Naval Laws: Kaiser Wilhelm II and Admiral Tirpitz worked together to enact a series of five naval laws which defined Germany's naval strength, starting with the Naval Law of 1898, the Kaiserliche Marine had its strength and composition defined by the first of these. The second naval bill, passed during the Boar War, doubled the size of the German fleet and made Germany a first class naval power, the 1908 supplement decreased the permissible age of ships, leading to a flurry of replacement construction, and retirement of older ships. The result of these laws was the 2nd most powerful navy in the world.

[Dreadnought]

IMO, Animosity largely between the two Royal families played alot in WWI. Tirpitz, it is said, fueled the funding of the Grand Fleet via the Reichstad by using scare tactics. Britian at the time was no enemy of Germany although Tirpitz made her out to be. However when Germany started building large warships via the Navy Bill 1 and then later the Navy Bill 2 (which doubled the size of the fleet), the Brits had no choice but to build to meet this challange, thus they may fall pray to either Russia or France at the time beside German interests. More or less Tirpitz wanted control of the North Sea which the Brits were not about to hand over without a fight. His thought process believed that the Brits would be too busy with far away gains to concentrate on the North Sea.

What is not know is how many shared this vision that Tirpitz had (Since parts of these Bills were passed in complete secrecy). If it wasnt him, then it might have been someone within his circle that shared a common belief that the Brits were the enemy contrary to past history.

When two powers start building large fleets of warships and both eye the same waters then no doubt war looms on the horizion and therefore Jutland. However, after Jutland the High Seas fleet seldom pushed to leave their home waters again.

[USSWisconsin]

I understand that Tirpitz served as a sort of manager for the Kaiser, helping him direct his energies and influence more effectively. The Kaiser wanted to build a navy to rival his uncle's (The King of Britain) but the cost of building it imediately was impossible. Tirpitz with his naval bills, broke up the cost enough to make it possible, timing the bills with international events like the Boar War and incidents in French Algeria helped gain the required support. The introduction of the HMS Dreadnought leveled the battleship field and made it possible for a German attempt to rival the British (particularly in the North Sea) because all new ships were needed. The naval aspirations of the Kaiser and the effective political manuevering and guidence of the Kaiser's efforts by Tirpitz combined to create the High Seas Fleet. I agree that Royal rivalries were behind the motives that drove the early 20th century battleship race, at least in Germany, Austio-Hungary, Britain, Russia, and Spain.

[zraver]

I have been reading about WWII with naval and general accounts from both British and German perspectives, and the High Seas Fleet seems to have been a major factor in the war, both as a cause and an influencial factor on the outcome.

How do you think WWI would have been changed by the abscence of Alfred Tirpitz (the architect of the High Seas Fleet)?

lacking the influence of Tirpitz the war may have been delayed for who knows how long. France was not willing to push Germany witrhout British support. If the Germans and Britain were no more than economic competitors or as had been the case in the 1880's freindly quasi allies, the France would not have acted to back up Russia in her demands on Austria-Hungary. France thought it would take Russia too long to mobalize and that she would have to fight Germany alone. Italy would likely have stayed out as well, France had little hope of victory by herself and nothing to offer Italy to break her alliance.

Would that have saved the Czar, Emepror and Sultan?

[USSWisconsin]

lacking the influence of Tirpitz the war may have been delayed for who knows how long. France was not willing to push Germany without British support. If the Germans and Britain were no more than economic competitors or as had been the case in the 1880's friendly quasi allies, the France would not have acted to back up Russia in her demands on Austria-Hungary. France thought it would take Russia too long to mobilize and that she would have to fight Germany alone. Italy would likely have stayed out as well, France had little hope of victory by herself and nothing to offer Italy to break her alliance.

Would that have saved the Czar, Emperor and Sultan?

Good points Zraver, in fact Wilhelm II's Father Fredrick III was pro-British alliance, his wife (and Wilhelm II's mother) was Victoria's daughter. His untimely death was perhaps an even bigger factor, leaving his troubled son in charge. It was the influence of Bismark and his own ego which turned Wilhelm II into what he was, compounded by his physical deformity and the need to hide it beneath a facade of bluster. A truly bizare charactor, the last Kaiser.

I doubt anything could have saved the three other crumbling monarchy's particularly the Czar's after the Russo-Japanese war, but the demise of these rotting governments might have been far less bloody without the powder charge assembled by the duo of Wilhelm II and Tirpitz. Of all of them, the Ottoman Empire might have lasted the longest, and was the most effectively resolved by the end of the monarchy. The tensions in the Balkans remained unresolved even after the fall of the Emperor, as the recent conflicts there have shown. In many ways the fourth European monarchy, Great Britian fell from uncontested world dominance after WWI as well, though it still exists today, its position has been dramatically changed, that monarchy is now a symbolic figurehead rather than a ruling body.

[zraver]

I doubt anything could have saved the three other crumbling monarchy's particularly the Czar's after the Russo-Japanese war, but the demise of these rotting governments might have been far less bloody without the powder charge assembled by the duo of Wilhelm II and Tirpitz. Of all of them, the Ottoman Empire might have lasted the longest, and was the most effectively resolved by the end of the monarchy. The tensions in the Balkans remained unresolved even after the fall of the Emperor, as the recent conflicts there have shown. In many ways the fourth European monarchy, Great Britian fell from uncontested world dominance after WWI as well, though it still exists today, its position has been dramatically changed, that monarchy is now a symbolic figurehead rather than a ruling body.

I think the A/H Empire had been in good shape before the assassination of the Archduke. Ferdinand would have pursued a federal system under the aegis of the dual impeiral throne. This might have allievated the most greivious complaints of the non-serbian ethnic minorities that were upset not becuase they were not indipendent, but becuase they had no place in the existing power structure. 28 June 1914 might be the saddest day in world history.

[USSWisconsin]

Interesting, I hadn't learned much about Ferdinand's politics yet, but understood that the system under the Emperor Franz Josef had deteriorated in his old age, though he was himself not a bad leader. Ferdinand would have changed things?

[Albany Rifles]

Side bar: Actually, KG V, Czar Nicholas and Kaiser Wilhelm were all three cousins thanks to Victoria. If you read Barbara Tuchman's seminal work The Guns of August it is fascinating to read the Georgie-Willie-Nicky telegrams that winged around between Moscow, London and Berlin in August 1914 to try to stave off the coming war. All three hoped to keep iot regionalized to the Balkans. The fly in the ointment ended being Austria-Hungary.

Thread unjacked!

[Dreadnought]

Hmm, didnt realize Czar Nicholas was a relative. Imagine that, three major powers of Europe all in the family. Talk about convienant. Surprisingly, they still couldn't prevent WWI from happening between them.

[Albany Rifles]

Hmm, didnt realize Czar Nicholas was a relative. Imagine that, three major powers of Europe all in the family. Talk about convienant. Surprisingly, they still couldn't prevent WWI from happening between them.

Made it a real bear when it came time to exchange Christmas gifts!

[zraver]

Hmm, didnt realize Czar Nicholas was a relative. Imagine that, three major powers of Europe all in the family. Talk about convienant. Surprisingly, they still couldn't prevent WWI from happening between them.

You have no idea, the inter-relations are insance. Take a gander at Olga, Queen of the Hellenes. Her father was a Russian grand Duke brother to Czar Alexander. One of her sons- Constantine was a Greek king married to a Prussian princess. Two of Constantine's dauthers becamse queens (Romania and Croatia). Another of her sons was the father of Prince Phillip Duke of Edinburgh who is dad to Charles the next English Monarch. However, Prince Phillip's mother is Pricness Alice of Battenburg. Queen Olga was married to Gergoe I King of Greece whose father was Christian X King of Denmark. One of Christian's daughters became the consort of Edward VII and queen of England. Besides George V, the couple also gave birth to Maud a future queen of Norway. She married the King of Norway who himself was the son of the King of Denmark and the daughter of the King of Sweden.....

confused yet?

[Dreadnought]

You have no idea, the inter-relations are insance. Take a gander at Olga, Queen of the Hellenes. Her father was a Russian grand Duke brother to Czar Alexander. One of her sons- Constantine was a Greek king married to a Prussian princess. Two of Constantine's dauthers becamse queens (Romania and Croatia). Another of her sons was the father of Prince Phillip Duke of Edinburgh who is dad to Charles the next English Monarch. However, Prince Phillip's mother is Pricness Alice of Battenburg. Queen Olga was married to Gergoe I King of Greece whose father was Christian X King of Denmark. One of Christian's daughters became the consort of Edward VII and queen of England. Besides George V, the couple also gave birth to Maud a future queen of Norway. She married the King of Norway who himself was the son of the King of Denmark and the daughter of the King of Sweden.....

confused yet?

Sounds like the better side of the DuPont family...

[USSWisconsin]

Side bar: Actually, KG V, Czar Nicholas and Kaiser Wilhelm were all three cousins thanks to Victoria. If you read Barbara Tuchman's seminal work The Guns of August it is fascinating to read the Georgie-Willie-Nicky telegrams that winged around between Moscow, London and Berlin in August 1914 to try to stave off the coming war. All three hoped to keep iot regionalized to the Balkans. The fly in the ointment ended being Austria-Hungary.

Thread unjacked!

Thank you Zraver, I have that book, but haven't read it yet, just finishing Robert Massie's "Dreadnought" that one will be next