BB trivia

[Gun Grape]

So where are Shipwreck and Gun Grape to spew their total trash about the Iowas 16" guns being inaccurate, especially when utilized against Beirut?

Here's your big chance kids...

Tomorrow. I have a MC Birthday ball to go to..

For now, I was there when they shot. I've seen them shoot at Viegas. I'm a trained NGF observer. They shot like crap. And no one "told them to miss".

[Bill]

Ah ha.

Well, at this point, i think you ought to spit out your name, unit, and rank at the time of the incident, and exactly what you were doing, where, and why.

Mr.Ralston(and Mr. Landgraff) is an individual who is known to have been there through various online documentation and even a book or two IIRC. He was there...that's a matter of public record. One does not snipe anonymously at someone who has put his name and reputation in the public domain.

So if you are going to contradict him directly by claiming you were there and that he is flat out wrong- and not just there- but INVOLVED in the firing/spotting process- as HE was, then it's time that you become part of the public record too. I am sure IronMan or Tophatter would back me in this opinion.

Personally, as i have said, i have always thought your company line mantra across the board was highly disingenuous, and your rendition of the performance of the Iowa Class' 16" guns are no exception.

So i invite you to put up or shut up.

[TopHatter]

Alright, let's keep it semi-civilized please

[RustyBattleship]

Alright, let's keep it semi-civilized please

Okay, I can go along with that. But at my age I look at a forum like this as a classroom. There are many young people out there (I won't call them "kids" or "children") who's only learning and exposure to these items are from books and magazines and Internet postings (accurate or not).

I feel it is our job to set these young people straight and the more experienced persons we can use the better. Who knows? There may be a young person on this board that may be a commanding officer of a warship or a tank commander or a leader of a fighter/interceptor squadron.

It IS our job to keep history straight and true and fill in the details where necessary. Otherwise our future is doomed to repeat its mistakes.

[Bill]

Okay, I can go along with that. But at my age I look at a forum like this as a classroom. There are many young people out there (I won't call them "kids" or "children") who's only learning and exposure to these items are from books and magazines and Internet postings (accurate or not).

I feel it is our job to set these young people straight and the more experienced persons we can use the better. Who knows? There may be a young person on this board that may be a commanding officer of a warship or a tank commander or a leader of a fighter/interceptor squadron.

It IS our job to keep history straight and true and fill in the details where necessary. Otherwise our future is doomed to repeat its mistakes.

Absolutely agreed Rusty.

"The only lesson history teaches is that man forgets all of histories lessons."
~Me

[sappersgt]

Absolutely agreed Rusty.

"The only lesson history teaches is that man forgets all of histories lessons."
~Me

Concur. One of the lessons history teaches is that history is not a very good teacher.

[RustyBattleship]

Absolutely agreed Rusty.

"The only lesson history teaches is that man forgets all of histories lessons."
~Me

That hit a few hundred people right between the eyes this morning. After we had our Veteran's Day Parade, we had a dedication of a Veteran's Memorial Mural that was hand painted on the side of a building. Tom Hennessy, a well known columnist from the Long Beach Press-Telegram, was the dedication speaker.

He related an incident he had about 10 years ago on a flight to the South Pacific to dedicate a memorial on Tarawa. It was a chartered flight and all the other passengers were Veterans (and some wives) who fought for that chunk of rock.

After the plane took off, the flight attendant (stewardess) sat down next to Tom and asked where were they going. He answered "To the island of Tarawa to dedicate a memorial there."

She looked back at the men and asked "Are these other people going there too?"

Tom answered yes and she asked another question, "Who are they that would be interested in such a small island?"

Tom answered "They were United States Marines and Sailors who fought for that island."

She, "Who were they fighting?"

Tom, "The Japanese of course. In World War II."

After a few moments the young lady asked one more question, "Who won?"

[Ytlas]

cRusty, Perhaps the stewardess was blonde......

[RustyBattleship]

cRusty, Perhaps the stewardess was blonde......

It would make a fairly good blonde joke. Unfortunately it's true. Our schools start their history lesson with the cave man and by the time they get up to the Civil War the semester runs out. Our young people today know absolutely nothing about the 20th century which has had more of an impact on our lives, the way we live, transportation, medical conquests, inventions and yes even wars.

Our daughter highlighted that for me some years back when the quote was made "Ask not what your country can do for you. But ask what you can do for your country." I responded that was President John F. Kennedy in his inaugral address.

Our daughter said, "Dad, I have heard that quote many times but never knew who said it."

It didn't take too many questions to discover that our required school curriculums have NO time to teach about the century that has had more influence than any century before us.

[HazeGrey]

It seems we are to look back at History so as not to repeat the mistakes made then so the future will be better. If this was done objectively, what a better world it would be. The glass should be always half full, not half empty. If the educators of the world, who have so much influence on our young, teach the glass is half empty, what will the future hold for the youth of America and the World. American men and women have fought and died so the youth of this Country can make their own self determination on the glass being half empty or half full. Then it would be up to them to change the condition. That's what Democracy is all about.

[zraver]

History is yesterday's news unless it can be citred to advance an agenda. Cynical, yes but far to acurate.

Thumbing through modern textbooks and it seems like anythign that would portray America as good has been removed.

[HazeGrey]

Gun Grape. Could you give me the year USS New Jersey shot Viegas? If you were an observer, was any spotting used? Once I have the answers to these questions, I will be able to respond to your comments. At your earliest convenience.
Fred Ralston

[HazeGrey]

I agree. Bravo Zulu

[Gun Grape]

Well, at this point, i think you ought to spit out your name, unit, and rank at the time of the incident, and exactly what you were doing, where, and why.

Name: Gun Grape. On an open forum that’s the best you will get. Even Mr. Landgraff Post under a different name on various boards. You accepted my creds before without a name.

Unit: 22d MAU, Specifically BLT 2/8, Hotel battery (3/10)

Rank: LCpl (E-3) and Cpl (E-4). I was promoted during the time in question.

What I was doing? Filling sandbags, drinking beer, trying not to get shot, shooting back
IOW getting another star on my combat action ribbon. Two in one float is not a good thing.

Actually depends on the day. The orders were to minimize people ashore, plus all the other stuff that goes on. Did get to go on the New Jersey to see Bob Hope.

Where? At the airport (firing battery or BLT CP) or on either the Guam (SACC) or Trenton.(LFOC/BLT CP)

Why? Well it was too humid in Grenada so the tour guide booked us a few months in “The Paris of the East”. And AUB had the lowest tuition for my major (dripping sarcasim, if you didn't notice) Why was I therre, I raised my hand to go on another float. President Reagan had said we would only be in the root no more than 6 months. So I vol to see some of the great libo ports that I missed the first med float.


Now lets talk about the 2 16/50 missions that they did.

First mission, I was at the battery pos. Drinking a beer or filling sandbags. Listening to the FD net on the radio.

This mission is one that the 16 inchers should have done real good on. Within Mr. Ralstons 18 mile accuracy range and plenty of backstop. Took a long time. BDA said they didn't kill the SAMs.

If they had let the battery move , we could have shot that target. Done it a lot faster and more accurately. Just ask the Druse 152 Battery.

Second, and last was the Syrian CP site. I was in the SACC USS Guam. She bounced rounds all over the place. And that is documented in many books. Also in comments by the US Ambassador to Lebanon.

Mr. Ralston even, off handly, gives credence in his post.

Some guns did have varying velocity (turret 3) which were used during firing for affect and not for spot.

So if those guns were used, and they were, then rounds would be going all over the place due to inconsistent MV.

On a good day, and IAW FM 6-30 the 16”/50 produces a significantly larger dispersion pattern than does the 5-inch. The pattern is about 150 meters (or greater) wide and 500 meters (or greater) long. That’s a 300 meter wide and 1000 meter area to encompass
All 4 PE zones.


By the late 80s, just before she was retired the zone was, as listed in GAO report 06-297, Dec 05, 900m range and 400 meters deflection. Now its a 1800m by 800m PE zone.

While that may have been “Good enough” in WW2, it doesn’t meet any modern day accuracy standards.

I will disagree with Mr. Landgriff on the Mk 7s being the most accurate artillery piece ever. We could most likely come to an agreement that it is the most accurate naval gun.
But unless you are talking about punching holes in verticle surfaces vice hitting a spot on the deck, a gun will never be as accurate as a howitzer. That Spherical Error Probability will get them every time. Plus being a high velocity low angle weapon, the ricochet factor knocks them down a notch.

As far as being told not to hit targets as a reason that Mr. Landgriff gave for missing. No, after Oct 23d, the gloves came off. We let Jersey shoot because we didn’t care how much collateral damage we did. We fired 155 and 5” missions were we never would have before. We were pissed. The only thing off limits was downtown. We gave those missions to the LCA for them to fire.

If you look at the “argument” we are suppose to be having, I don’t see one.

Mr. Ralston states the MV problems that threw FFE accuracy off.
Mr. Landgraff states that there was no problem. They were told to miss.
Heck, M-21 even references that they shot like crap in various threads, and says it was the powder.
I just say they shot like ****, Don’t care what the problem was.
Seems we all say she had CHS syndrome.

We can pull up some of the already posted stuff from old threads if anyone wants.


I do have some questions for Mr. Ralston.

If you were on the crew at San Clemente and then came around to ModLoc off Beirut, why didn’t you go home when they switched the crew out in Dec? Hey you did your time why not go home for Christmas? Most of us on the ground knew we were missing Christmas and many had vol to come on this float. You guys didn’t, you were suppose to be back home by then

Why did you put out a radar beacon? We already had them out for the aircraft. Why not use theirs? Did the 2 working so close together give you any interference?

As for good shooting at other places. Such as the infamous Vieques shoot (1987?)that USNFSA overlayed the pentagon to show as great shooting.

I guess the standard of what is good depends on the person and the criteria you judge by. By my standards.( 20+ years in Artillery, a former Blockhouse instructor, school trained 0861 with thousands of fire missions under my belt,) I’m not very impressed when you compare them to other systems.

And especially now when compared to modern fire support means. There is a reason that Danger close for 16” is 2,000 meters. And because of modern systems the DC for 155 HE is being changed to 200m vice the old standard of 600 meters.

I was more impressed with the 5/54s at Subic then I was with the Missouri.(Nov 1990) More responsive, faster corrections. Less corrections.



To me, its like comparing a Spencer Carbine to a M-16. It was accurate for its day just that day isn’t today.

[Gun Grape]

Gun Grape. Could you give me the year USS New Jersey shot Viegas? If you were an observer, was any spotting used? Once I have the answers to these questions, I will be able to respond to your comments. At your earliest convenience.
Fred Ralston

Never shot NJ. Only saw her shoot in the Root. Did shoot the Wisconson in 1989.

She didn't seem to know what she was doing at the PR shoot. Don’t know if it was a “gun” problem or a plot problem. Ie not keeping the relationship of the OT line in respect to the GT line. She just didn't seem to know where her observers were.

She bounced rounds around and shot where we didn’t expect. And angle t was not the problem. Never more than 400 mils, IIRC. Been a long time