PDA

View Full Version : AUG vs. M-4 Carbine



troung
03 Nov 03,, 23:58
Might be a kind of silly topicÖ.

Which guys do you think is better for combat missions in say the jungle, the AUG or M-4. Letís say for an army, which has used 5.56mm guns since the 1960s. Iím asking this because I see a good number of M-16 users having both the AUG and M-4 on missions in many South East Asian nations for example.

And please no M-4 becuase it's American or AUG becuase it is not


:lol

Bill
04 Nov 03,, 05:30
The Aug is really a full-length assault rifle, the M-4 is a carbine, so they're not really comparable.

Both have inherent advantadges and disadvantadges.

I prefer non-bullpups myself.

TopHatter
04 Nov 03,, 14:30
Isn't there a conversion (or just plain different version) of the AUG that can be converted to a carbine? Or have I been drinking again?

Officer of Engineers
04 Nov 03,, 14:52
Originally posted by TopHatter
Isn't there a conversion (or just plain different version) of the AUG that can be converted to a carbine? Or have I been drinking again?

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a bullpup? To have a full length barrel in a shorter weapon?

Bill
04 Nov 03,, 16:56
Yeah, they make one of those, but i agree with the Colonel, it's kind of stupid.

I personally would want the M-14 the para is carrying in the photo.

s_qwert63
04 Nov 03,, 17:52
The AUG is too uncomfortable when firing from prone position, and the lack of iron sights can be a disadvantage, however all-in-all I think it is a better all around rifle than the M16/M4.

The AUG is more practical, you can convert it to a carbine, a submachine gun and a light support weapon.

troung
04 Nov 03,, 18:22
Personally I just find it wierd that M-16 using armies in some nations will buy the AUG as well. I have seen pics of SEA special forces carrying both the AUG and M-4 so I was wondering if one can be thought of as better then the other.


ps
Of course sniper would prefer the M-14 of that Flippino scout ranger, he would probably take a kentucky rifle over a FAMAS but thats a different story...........

Bill
04 Nov 03,, 20:40
"he would probably take a kentucky rifle over a FAMAS but thats a different story..........."

Well actually, yeah. ;)

BTW, it's PENNSYLVANIA long rifle. ;)

SQUIRT...

"however all-in-all I think it is a better all around rifle than the M16/M4."

Based on what?

s_qwert63
04 Nov 03,, 20:43
It's flexibility and good all round statistics, the tendency to jam less in extreme conditions.
but I would pick an AKM over any rifle.

Stinger
04 Nov 03,, 20:49
Originally posted by s_qwert63
It's flexibility and good all round statistics, the tendency to jam less in extreme conditions.
but I would pick an AKM over any rifle. Apparently being able to HIT a target is of less consideration.

Bill
04 Nov 03,, 20:49
LOL, an AKM?

Are you kidding me?

Over any rifle?

Now i know you're whacked...

troung
04 Nov 03,, 21:05
The AKM? I guess he just wants to be able to pull the trigger a hope to keep peoples heads down.........

s_qwert63
04 Nov 03,, 21:22
Originally posted by M21Sniper
LOL, an AKM?

Are you kidding me?

Over any rifle?

Now i know you're whacked...

I have fired both, the M16 and the AKM.
It is true, on a well lit, grassed shooting range the M16 would prove to be more effective then the AK.
But in true battle conditions the AKM/AK 74 is much better and much more practical.
My friend was in a paratroop unit on the Afghan-Tadjik border, he said that he would choose the AK over any rifle. once they were practicing disembarkation from a BMD, so they drove them into the middle of a sand storm, they had to disembark, crawl 50 meters to their firing positions and then fire on silhouettes.
He had an AK74M, so when they got out, the sandstorm was so thick that a lot of sand got into the receiver. When they were crawling, a lot sand entered the muzzle as well. At the firing position his AK worked just fine.
Would the M16 perform just as well?
It is a good rifle but it should be kept clean and sand/mud/water free at all times to be efective. It's dioptic sight might give it better accuracy, but in unlit areas and at night it is very hard to see/identify the target because of the nature of the sights.


Apparently being able to HIT a target is of less consideration.

Ever heard of semi-automatic? wacko...
Does the fact that the AK is the most proliferated rifle in history tell you anything?
Does the fact that most small arms engagements take place on a distance of 100-300 meters tell you anything?

s_qwert63
04 Nov 03,, 21:25
Originally posted by troung
The AKM? I guess he just wants to be able to pull the trigger a hope to keep peoples heads down.........

...
did you have any experience with an AK?

Stinger
04 Nov 03,, 21:38
Originally posted by s_qwert63
Ever heard of semi-automatic? wacko...

WTF did you ever play left field in a baseball game?


Originally posted by s_qwert63
Does the fact that the AK is the most proliferated rifle in history tell you anything? People are either poor or stupid... usually both.


Originally posted by s_qwert63
Does the fact that most small arms engagements take place on a distance of 100-300 meters tell you anything? Yep it does it tells me I need a rifle that I can rely on to shoot straight from 100 meters to 300 meters.

Bill
04 Nov 03,, 21:43
I've fired nearly every variant of the AK that exists, from the original SKS, AK-47, AK-74 and AKS, AKM, AKMS, you name it.

It is my humble opinion that the only two nice things that can be said for the AK series is that they do not jam, and any idiot can operate one.

When it comes to accuracy, the M-16A2 is in a completely different class- fully capable of engagements with the iron sights to 500+ meters, and fully capable of head shots with the factory sights to 150+ meters.

The M-16 series is even easier to field strip, is just as easy to clean, is just as good a platform for a bayonet or grenade launcher, and lets face it, it looks a hell of a lot cooler. ;)

The M-16 is much more accurate because the tolerances of the moving parts are much tighter than the AK series.

Because the AK series is 'sloppy', it is much harder to jam, but is also much(much, much, much) less accurate.

In OJC, the M-16A2 performed with excellence in the humid jungle environment of Panama.

In ODS the M-16A2 served with distinction proving quite able to withstand the rigors of the Saudi desert.

In Somalia the M-16A2 endured the dry arid conditions of the African state without incident.

In OEF, the M-16 has performed quite well in the legendarily harsh Afghani wilderness.

In OIF, with the exception of a gaggle of REMF's that oiled their rifles in a desert(doh!), the M-16A2 has again performed superbly.

But hey, what does it's actual record in five wars have to do with anything?

Did i mention the M-16 was WAY more accurate?

Of course, all that being said- i'd still rather have an M-14 series rifle. I'm in love with the new M-25 version. :)

Praxus
04 Nov 03,, 23:01
Ever heard of semi-automatic? wacko...
Does the fact that the AK is the most proliferated rifle in history tell you anything?
Does the fact that most small arms engagements take place on a distance of 100-300 meters tell you anything?

That's because it's cheap and any dumb smuck can fire it and not worry about cleaning it very often.

Stinger
05 Nov 03,, 03:10
I still want to know where the f**k this came from...
Ever heard of semi-automatic? wacko...

Officer of Engineers
05 Nov 03,, 03:14
Originally posted by s_qwert63
It's flexibility and good all round statistics, the tendency to jam less in extreme conditions.
but I would pick an AKM over any rifle.

I'll tell you what I tell every one of my recruits who wants to fire everything under the sun. You'll shoot what, when, and where I will allow you to shoot. You ain't paying for it and you don't got a choice.

Captain C
19 Dec 03,, 22:53
I suspect the kill ratio of the engagments where the M-16 varients and the AK varients have been pitted against each other will tell the story.

How well did the Iraqi's do against the US forces that came against them? The US forces in small arms action kicked some serious rear. Same in Somalia....

Like Sniper, I prefer the M-14 the best for general field use. It is accurate, and leaves hole you can see through in your target. In a house clearing scenario I would prefer the M-4A1 (or a bag full of grenades).

:sniper :fear

pak_mudi
03 Jan 04,, 02:59
Pakistani M-4
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040102/i/r3965218157.jpg
Pakistani AUG
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14263542/UT0121613.jpg

pak_mudi
03 Jan 04,, 14:46
pakistan AUG
http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/mannlicher/1_Action-Aug-1.jpg

leib10
25 Mar 05,, 18:30
When it comes to accuracy, the M-16A2 is in a completely different class- fully capable of engagements with the iron sights to 500+ meters, and fully capable of head shots with the factory sights to 150+ meters.


I find it difficult to even see an even poorly camouflaged target at 500 yards without optical enhancement. Maybe it's because I'm partially blind in one eye.

Praxus
25 Mar 05,, 19:10
He said engagements, and in all likelyhood he was refering to area engagements not engaging single soldiers.

leib10
25 Mar 05,, 19:16
Oh, failed to read that.

Bill
26 Mar 05,, 02:32
"He said engagements, and in all likelyhood he was refering to area engagements not engaging single soldiers."

Nope, i meant individual soldiers.

The iron sights are graduated from 25 to 800 meters on the A2, but beyond about 500meters you really need optics(well, at least i do).

I have 20/10 sight.

leib10
26 Mar 05,, 16:02
I really don't like the A1 sights. My DPMS M4 carbine has A1 sights, and adjusting them not exactly an easy task, especially when speed counts.

Bill
26 Mar 05,, 17:00
The A1 sites sucked.

G_W_T
27 Mar 05,, 01:43
M4 ... you can customize it way better. Just look at SOPMOD kit.
Cool rifle, eh? ;)

http://www.navyseals.com/community/media/weapons/m4comp.jpg

sniperdude411
27 Mar 05,, 02:09
"The M-16 series is even easier to field strip, is just as easy to clean, is just as good a platform for a bayonet or grenade launcher, and lets face it, it looks a hell of a lot cooler."

I cannot agree more...
The AK series needs a face lift more than John Kerry does...

leib10
27 Mar 05,, 02:31
I hardly think that a soldier concerns himself with how cool his weapon looks. I think he places more emphasis on how it performs in combat.

My final word on the M16/AK47 debate: each has its strong points, and each is better than the other in certain situations.

leib10
17 Jun 05,, 17:18
I'm sorry all you M16 purists, but I just can't stand mine. It's too sensitive to dust, ammo it doesn't have an appetite for, and carbon fouling. It has a problem with rounds failing to eject and getting stuck in the chamber. It's probably the most unreliable semi-auto I have. I clean the damned thing regularly and it still jams. If I was in combat, I'd take an AK over an M16 any day. I know it's not as accurate or easy to shoot, but at least it works on a very consistent basis.

sniperdude411
18 Jun 05,, 03:31
I'm sorry all you M16 purists, but I just can't stand mine. It's too sensitive to dust, ammo it doesn't have an appetite for, and carbon fouling. It has a problem with rounds failing to eject and getting stuck in the chamber. It's probably the most unreliable semi-auto I have. I clean the damned thing regularly and it still jams. If I was in combat, I'd take an AK over an M16 any day. I know it's not as accurate or easy to shoot, but at least it works on a very consistent basis.

It probably is the ammo it shoots; was it your AK that I saw on here with all that fouling?


Oh, this reminds me, I saw (for sale) at the local gun store, an M4 (didn't see the maker), used, with A2 sights, and a 100-round drum for $999. M21: if you're interested, you should probably check it out, since you're only about an hour away from New Holland...

leib10
21 Jun 05,, 01:33
Nope, not the ammo. I've tried all sorts of rounds: from Wolf to Federal, and it still jams. Several internal components have also broken, which I've replaced. It's still missing a few parts but partially functions nonetheless.

Bill
21 Jun 05,, 02:00
Your rifle is probably broke.

My M-16A2 was extremely reliable.

sniperdude411
21 Jun 05,, 04:18
I've never had any complaints about m-16 rifles anywhere except Vietnam, which was because of plenty of reasons.

Does your rifle have a chrome-plated bolt?

leib10
21 Jun 05,, 05:18
Yes it does. Maybe it was just a faulty rifle. Should still be under warranty, so I'm gonna see if I can get ahold of a new rifle. Even so, a lot of my friends have AR style weapons and they're only marginally more reliable than mine. Perhaps it's because the M16 demands more attention as far as cleaning and maintenance goes when compared to other weapons.

sniperdude411
21 Jun 05,, 14:37
Well, as long as you don't let residue cake-up in your gun, it should be fine to go a thousand shots without cleaning. The M16 should not need constant attention every hundred shots.

leib10
21 Jun 05,, 23:23
I beg to differ. Try every 50 shots.

If I can't get a refund, I might sell it and get something else entirely, hopefully something that works.

Bill
21 Jun 05,, 23:49
50 shots between malfunctions?

It's broke.

How many rounds have you put through it in total?

ak-dave
22 Jun 05,, 00:38
Leibstandarte,

Like M21 sez, itís broke!! Who made it? How long have you had it? What parts are missing?!?!?! What all broke? Inquiring minds what to know.

Donít shoot any of the lacquered steel cases (http://www.olyarms.com/?page=ammowarning) in it (i.e. Wolf, Sapsan, etc.), it gums up the chamber and causes extraction & ejection problems. Iíve been trying the Wolf polymer coated .223 and Iím not too sure about them yet. Olympic Arms will void your warranty (http://www.olyarms.com/?page=warranty) if they find out you were bad. I've tried about everything through my ARs, they do prefer brass over non-brass cases. My oldest I built in 1986 and it has had no major problems, it's been used (100K+ rnds) and very much abused (put away and not cleaned for months) at times. :cool:

If you would like, PM me with your issues, what broke and what was replaced. I will help you work through it. Iím here for ya man. :biggrin:

leib10
22 Jun 05,, 14:35
Mine is a DPMS Panther Lite with a 16 inch barrel manufactured about about a year and a half ago. I've never used the lacquered steel cases because in a hot chamber the lacquer will melt and really make your life miserable. The plunger that holds the recoil spring and buffer is gone and the sear broke.

sniperdude411
23 Jun 05,, 00:41
Well then I woinder why it's broke...

leib10
23 Jun 05,, 04:04
I replaced the sear, naturally. ;)

sniperdude411
23 Jun 05,, 14:28
And what happened to the plunger that holds the recoil spring and buffer?

ak-dave
24 Jun 05,, 03:33
Leibstandarte,

DPMS has a good reputation. Curious about the where the sear broke, the tip that catches the hammer or maybe around the hole for the trigger pin. The buffer plunger is held in by the buffer tube screwed into the back of the receiver. The end of the buffer tube overlaps the buffer plunger by about 1/16Ē.
https://home.comcast.net/~ak-dave/plung.JPG

If the plunger just came out then either the threads on the tube are too short or the rear of the receiver is too thick. The tube has a neck at the threads to stop it.
https://home.comcast.net/~ak-dave/tube.JPG

See if the end of the tube is damaged, you could try another tube. Last resort Ė grind a weeeeeee bit of the back of the receiver to move the end of the tube in.


It has a problem with rounds failing to eject and getting stuck in the chamber.
FTE could be almost anything from a tight chamber to a gas leak. Try running it by an AR savvy gunsmith before unloading it. Iíd start with GO and NO-GO gauges first.

If you really-really hate the A1 upper you can easily change it to an A2or A3.

Long-winded post here, back on topic.

Close race between the AUG & M4. I like them both very much. The M4 has to win out because of the flexibility of the sights and accessories. Because of the age difference it would be more fare to compare the AUG with a M-16.

BTW:

Ever heard of semi-automatic? wacko...
YES :biggrin:
https://home.comcast.net/~ak-dave/G_ak.jpg
My brother Shirley, MA rifle range cira 1988.

Felix
25 Jun 05,, 21:06
I suspect the kill ratio of the engagments where the M-16 varients and the AK varients have been pitted against each other will tell the story.

How well did the Iraqi's do against the US forces that came against them? The US forces in small arms action kicked some serious rear. Same in Somalia....


Maybe training has also something to do with it...

leib10
26 Jun 05,, 05:44
And the fact that US forces now have body armor.

sniperdude411
26 Jun 05,, 15:56
Many many things factor out.

Jeez, hasn't been too much activity since I was away form my cruise.

Ziska
03 Aug 05,, 00:55
Well, to bring the thread back ot, the Australian army is bringing in m-4's to replace our F-88 Styers in 2010.

davechng
11 Sep 05,, 07:29
both M4 and AUG are good system however, there are both advantage and disadvantage of each system.

I own both the AUG and various version of M4 and M16. the ergonomics of the M16 is 2nd to none. AUG has akward position of the mag release. bullpup usually ( becasue of the design) has not as good trigger as the conventional rifle like the M16, because the trigger bar has to be actuated with a bar instead of a direct approach from the M16.

AUG
, the plastic of the AUG is not very durable, infact I have empty cartridge not ejecting during Full auto fring and it got stuck ( hot brass) eat into the plastic of the AUG plastic stock) My AUg A2 version have a broken ejector after about 3000 rds fring ! thats not very impressive to me. I like the modular quick change system where you can change out trigger packs, barrels, scope and all ! very quick and simple !accuracy is quite good on the AUG and the balance of the rifle is good.
Another bad side is the M16 in where i am resding in Dallas we can get parts easily while the AUG we have to pay and arm and a leg for spareparts since there is really no one brining in full accceories and parts except a few dealers and all the prices are highly inflated.

M16, the only concern I have is the non piston base direct gas system of the M16. It gets dirty and needs maintaince more than the AUG! I can do 2 to 3 session of fring with teh AUG with about 2000 rds and still the rifle is clean in thebolt and everywhere except the piston ! Have a good cleaning on the piston and the AUG is ready to go .. M4 and M16 is a differnt story! lots of cleaning on the bolt, chamber and the bolt has hard crystalliuzed carbon in it! Takes a lot more effort . The AR is much more accurate than the AUG! better trigger and ergonomics. Magazine can be a weak point on the M16! but recenlty HK has improve on it .

IN boils down to training. I can go with a bullpup if I wwant to but I am so use to the M16 that I would not hesistate taking the M16 when SHTF!

DavEC

davechng
12 Sep 05,, 21:43
Steyr AUG A2 with ACOG TA-01NSN, Isvesk Tiger SVD and M16A2, with M82 in the background

:biggrin:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/dave-lee-mic-1.jpg

DAveC

sniperdude411
14 Sep 05,, 04:08
Hey, if you ever come by Lancaster PA sometime around Thanksgiving, be sure to stop by my house so we can have a good shoot sometime...
I'm using the ... WAY too much now...

davechng
14 Sep 05,, 04:56
its a bit far to drive from Texas! :biggrin:

besides its hard to bring Class 3 weapons outof state!

DaveC

Weps
14 Sep 05,, 06:39
I've fire the M16A2 and M4. I have never fired an AUG, but have seen many fired and have a good friend that has.

The M16 is easy to clean, great mounting platform, superb accuaracy, and just a good all around weapon.

The AUG is akward to hold and fire, the ejecting brass flies everywhere, too light, not a preferable mounting platform for a M203.

davechng
14 Sep 05,, 15:25
I've fire the M16A2 and M4. I have never fired an AUG, but have seen many fired and have a good friend that has.

The M16 is easy to clean, great mounting platform, superb accuaracy, and just a good all around weapon.

The AUG is akward to hold and fire, the ejecting brass flies everywhere, too light, not a preferable mounting platform for a M203.


Well! the M16 direct gas system is the issue, which blows back gas and carbon and heat back into the bolt carrier, if you do prolong firing, opniing out the bolt you will see very hard crystalllized carbon form on bolt and you'll need somthing like a wirebrush to get rid of those! chamber area is also very dirty! in the same token, a piston type gas system like the AUG, Galil etc... the gas do not blow back into the bolt carrier and bolt area! thus even after 2000 rds of firing... the bolt and carrier on the AUG is clean... only dirty part is the piston! so a quck clean on the piston usually is all it is needed!

Lets make it this way, the AUG ,galil, FNC, SIg550 etc is easier to maintain and clean in the field and with it cleaner , have less problems!

The AUG is actually well balance! does not have the barrle heavy syndrom on most conevtional type rifles! on standing position! it sits comfortably and stable. only downside is the ergonomics and trigger is not as good due to the bullpup design!


DaveC

sniperdude411
14 Sep 05,, 21:23
They need to make a newer AUG with more sexy rails, and better plastic.
Then it'd be really good.

Someone needs to use an electronic trigger!

Terran empire
15 Sep 05,, 18:51
They have the Rails on the AUG A3
http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/index.php?id=654

But the Trigger You know even with all these "Land warrior" systems they still use the old trigger and for good reason. during OIF batteries were part of the top consumables list and so with an Electronic trigger you adding to their consumption and then there is the point of what if the enemy uses EMP? such a thought is not unreasonable. then the soldiers down to sticks and stones. Electronic Triggers Might work better for police because when used with a safety ID system they can cut down the number of Police killed with there own guns.

sniperdude411
15 Sep 05,, 21:47
What kind of person would use EMP?
Electronic triggers use almost no energy; about as much as a wrist watch. So replacing the batteries would be about as often as 1-2 years.

Electronic triggers are MUCH easier and cheaper to use, clean, and build. Not to mention you can have more selections.

And that AUG is HOT.

leib10
15 Sep 05,, 23:26
The M16's greatest fault is its direct gas system, which leads to fouling and jamming.

Terran empire
16 Sep 05,, 02:09
The M16's greatest fault is its direct gas system, which leads to fouling and jamming.
Which is where the HK 416 and ZM weapons comes in they both use a Pusher rod system similar to the G36 and AR18 and AK?. this take the fouling out of the system.

as for who would use a EMP well I sure as heck would if i were the dictator of a country being pushed around. One shot and my enemy is blind, Deaf and mute, they suddenly drop out of the 21st and 20th centuries

leib10
16 Sep 05,, 05:23
Yep. The use of a gas piston reduces the amount of carbon fouling that forms on the bolt, thus reducing the chances of a jam.