Myths from the Battle of Midway

[TopHatter]

I've just received my much-anticipated copy of Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Tony Tully. These are the gents behind Nihon Kaigun aka combinedfleet.com, probably the first and last source of information on the Imperial Japanese Navy of World War II.

This book is simply incredible. If you have any interest in the Battle of Midway and have read about it before, then this book is definitely for you. Let me get that out of the way.

It's a fresh look at what you thought you knew about the IJN and the first 7 months of the Pacific War and the Battle of Midway.

It's packed with diagrams, very rare pictures, incredibly diverse sources...I could go on and on.

So what are some of these "Myths of Midway"? From the well-written introduction of Shattered Sword:

• The Americans triumphed against overwhelming odds at the Battle of Midway.

• The Aleutians Operation was conceived by Admiral Yamamoto,
the commander in chief of Combined Fleet, as a diversion
designed to lure the American fleet out of Pearl Harbor.

• During the transit to Midway, Admiral Yamamoto withheld important
intelligence information from Admiral Nagumo, the operational commander of the carrier
striking force. As a result, Nagumo was in the dark concerning the nature of the
threat facing him.

• Had the Japanese implemented a two-phase reconnaissance search on the
morning of 4 June, they would have succeeded in locating the American fleet in
time to win the battle.

• The late launch of cruiser Tone’s No. 4 scout plane doomed Admiral Nagumo to
defeat in the battle.

• Had Admiral Nagumo not decided to rearm his aircraft with land-attack weapons,
he would have been in a position to attack the Americans as soon as they were
discovered.

• The sacrifice of USS Hornet’s Torpedo Squadron Eight was not in vain, since it
pulled the Japanese combat air patrol fighters down to sea level, thereby allowing
the American dive-bombers to attack at 1020.

• Japan’s elite carrier aviators were all but wiped out during the battle

Did I mention it would challenge what you thought you knew about the Battle of Midway? ;)

[Bill]

IOW, it's a crock of shiit eh?

[TopHatter]

IOW, it's a crock of shiit eh?

The given, accepted account of the Battle of Midway could be described as such, yes.

Some things were so obvious (after the fact) that my forehead hurts from where I was smacking it.

Most of what we've accepted as fact about Midway came from Mitsuo Fuchida's book. A book that was basically disproven in Japan back in the 1970s.

[Bill]

So what's this clowns take on why torpedo sqn 8 was torn to ribbons, and why the dive bomber sqn came in completely unmolested?

There are dozens of eyewitness accounts that described it happening exactly as we've always believed.

So um, what gives?

[TopHatter]

So what's this clowns take on why torpedo sqn 8 was torn to ribbons, and why the dive bomber sqn came in completely unmolested?

There are dozens of eyewitness accounts that described it happening exactly as we've always believed.

So um, what gives?

Well, given the extent of their knowledge and massive research, I would hardly call them clowns.

They are not contesting the obvious reason behind Torpedo Eight's demise (Zeros and shipboard AAA), they are disputing the long-held belief that while the 3 USN torpedo groups were being torn apart by the Zeros, the Dauntless squadrons were just minutes away from pushing over and bombing the 3 carriers into flaming wrecks.
The mythos is that the Zeros were playing wolf on the fold down at low altitude and had no time to climb back to a proper CAP altitude, where they were in a perfect position to knock off the approaching SBDs.

From the book's summary:
VT-8's demise happened a full hour before decisive [USN dive-bomber] attack, giving plenty of time for CAP Zeros to resume their correct stacking had they maintained discipline. Rather, VT-8's contribution was the same as VT-6's - disrupting the counteroffensive activities of the Japanese carriers. (bold added by me)

The commander of Hornet's Torpedo Eight, John Waldron spotted the IJN carriers at 0910, the same time as James Gray of Fighting Six from Enterprise.
Torpedo Eight's attack would have commenced shortly thereafter.
This is more than an hour before the SBDs attacked at 1020

Enterprise's Torpedo Six began their attack at 0938

Yorktown's Torpedo Three attack on the carriers actually culminated after the dive-bomber attack.
In fact, some American SBD crews stated after bombing Kaga and Akagi that they had witnessed some Torpedo Three aircraft still heading northward to attack the IJN carriers. No surprise there, the Devastors were abysmally slow, particularly when lugging their fish.

The dive-bombers began their attack at 1020.

There are dozens of eyewitness accounts that described it happening exactly as we've always believed.

Absolutely correct that there were dozens, actually hundreds of eyewitness accounts. The problem is, most of them have been ignored in favor of Mitsuo Fuchida's account of the battle. His book Midway - The Battle That Doomed Japan was the first book put out in post-war Japan after the American censorship had been lifted. For a number of reasons, he tilted, slanted and outright mispresented several facts about the battle. As you said, there was dozens of eyewitnesses to contradict him, but they didn't. Why not?
In post-war Japan, it wasn't a really good idea to start talking about your war service. The military was utterly disgraced. Fuchida did it to protect his reputation and the reputation of his fighting outfit. His account was then translated into English, one of only two (IIRC) that was. The other was RADM Ryunosuke Kusaka's Kido Butai. It too repeats what Fuchida said. But as Parschall and Tully found out, both books are considered bad comedy in Japan.
Not because they made Japan look bad but because they made the IJN look good, when operational records clearly show that they were NOT!

There is a lot that I'm not going into right now, for the simple fact that their Forward goes into with a much better flow than I could hope to duplicate.

[Bill]

Guess i'm gonna have to read it then dammit.

Feel free to lend it to your buddy snipe when you're done. ;)

[TopHatter]

Guess i'm gonna have to read it then dammit.

Feel free to lend it to your buddy snipe when you're done. ;)

Hey wait just a dang minute here! You can't give up that easily

Actually, if you shoot me an address, I'll send you one as an early present.

[Bill]

Dang dude, you da man. :)

One PM one Book?

As far as giving up, i need to read what he's saying in detail before i can even determine what parts i don't agree with, lol. Odds are, his sources are just slightly better than mine. ;)

[TopHatter]

Dang dude, you da man. :)

One PM one Book?

Sure, why not?

As far as giving up, i need to read what he's saying in detail before i can even determine what parts i don't agree with, lol. Odds are, his sources are just slightly better than mine. ;)

Actually, it turns out that this is one of at least 3 books from different authors that is really starting to take a serious look at the PTO's first 7-8 months.

Their sources are wide and varied. The bibliography and sources sections is a beefy 9 pages long and is packed to the gunwhales.

Trust me, these guys know their stuff*. Just drop by combinedfleet.com and see what I mean.


*although one of them is a little over the top. He named his two cats Hiryu and Soryu. ;)

[Bluesman]

Is this community of ours the t!ts, or WHAT? Friends I've never met, and I like the easy trust that one can develop after awhile online with each other.

So, a cool guy, that TopHatter dude, lending books on trust to somebody just based on a shared interest in the subject matter.

Just...really cool.

[TopHatter]

Is this community of ours the t!ts, or WHAT? Friends I've never met, and I like the easy trust that one can develop after awhile online with each other.

So, a cool guy, that TopHatter dude, lending books on trust to somebody just based on a shared interest in the subject matter.

Just...really cool.

Ummm...actually I wouldn't trust Sniper with one of my books if he was the last sniper on Earth

I am barely at the "Midway Island air group attacking the Kido Butai" part in the book and there is no way in the hell that I am surrendering my copy to anybody, even at gunpoint.....which is something he could arrange

I used his grid coordinates to have one fired off from amazon.com to him.
With a little bit of luck and some good aim, it'll land right on his head
He can dissect it to his heart's content....although I dearly wish he would express some more specific dissenting views. For once, I'm not utterly out of my element here on the WAB

[Bill]

Ummm...actually I wouldn't trust Sniper with one of my books if he was the last sniper on Earth

I am barely at the "Midway Island air group attacking the Kido Butai" part in the book and there is no way in the hell that I am surrendering my copy to anybody, even at gunpoint.....which is something he could arrange

I used his grid coordinates to have one fired off from amazon.com to him.
With a little bit of luck and some good aim, it'll land right on his head
He can dissect it to his heart's content....although I dearly wish he would express some more specific dissenting views. For once, I'm not utterly out of my element here on the WAB

Well, i read it. Very interesting. If there's anything you wish to discuss, fire away.

[TopHatter]

Well, i read it. Very interesting. If there's anything you wish to discuss, fire away.

Sure, always something to discuss.

First of all, your impressions? Was it well-researched and their information sound?

Any critiques or gripes?

I certainly had a few small gripes.

If you're used to having Japanese aircraft referred to by their Allied reporting names (Val, Kate, Judy etc) then you'd better bone up on their proper Japanese designations.

If the use of Japanese names for well, everything Japanese is unfamiliar to you, then you'd better bookmark their reference section.

This is not a book for the "casual" WWII reader. But then again, that's exactly what I like about it.

I'll never be able to read Miracle at Midway, Incredible Victory or Midway - The Battle That Doomed Japan again without repeatedly snatching this book and comparing facts.

I especially found the Japanese amphibious landings in Appendix 5 very interesting. I'd read in the past that the Japanese probably could have taken the island.

[Bill]

Well the fact that the author seems to believe that the nazis could've won WWII in Europe kinda speaks for itself.

[TopHatter]

Well the fact that the author seems to believe that the nazis could've won WWII in Europe kinda speaks for itself.

Umm...yeah. I think I missed that part. What page(s) is that on?

And in the meantime, what does that have to do with their Midway information?