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Just Browsing
11 Oct 05,, 09:36
http://pub16.bravenet.com/forum/1349860828/show/475088

The author seems to be looking for some constructive criticism for a solution his 'friend' is offering for the Kashmir problem?

indianguy4u
11 Oct 05,, 11:04
there has been enuff threads on this matter here, scroll & search . U will come to know what ppl here think.

Sameer
11 Oct 05,, 15:15
Your friend's solution envisages the moving of people a la partition. It is certainly legal in the subcontinent since it happened already in 48. ie if a Sunni does not wish to live in Indian Kashmir then he can leave just like millions of Punjabis/Karachiites etc who were Hindus had to. The difference being that this time its a choice and they can stay or get money and sell their house and leave.

I dont think such plan will work as the problem is the flow of fighters from across the border, it will not end the suicide bombings or grenade attacks.

The only viable solution remains a European Union type framework for both India and Pakistna where Kashmir is transformed into a free trade zone.

no other solution will ever be mutually acceptable and talks will fail.

cheers

Just Browsing
11 Oct 05,, 16:57
"I dont think such plan will work as the problem is the flow of fighters from across the border, it will not end the suicide bombings or grenade attacks. ... "

" ... no other solution will ever be mutually acceptable and talks will fail."

cheers

So, will it work IF "the flow of fighters from across the border, ... the suicide bombings or grenade attacks ... " were stopped. Because then it becomes a law & order problem?

The "solution" does not require acceptance from Pakistan. Perhaps you did not see that claim made by the author, which is further down the thread on the NEXT page.

Sameer
11 Oct 05,, 17:09
This process may not require the participation of Pakistan but if you are planning to send seperatist Sunnis across the border then it does concearn Pakistan as well.

Furthurmore, assume for one sec that this plan works, if Pakistan does not stop the insurgency sponsorship, training camps etc then Jehadis will always cross over and do the same thing and no meaningful investment can ever be made into kashmir.

Also any plan that deals with religion ie Sunnis who decide to leave can get money and leave will never work in India as the supreme court will deeem it unconstitutional. Any partition along religious lines will never work and I for one cannot see the morality, sure you may have a seperatist in Kashmir but that does not mean that he should have to leave because Kashmir and his village is his as well. Partition was wrong in 47 and in 2004 is does not become any more right.

A plan will only work if both parties accept it.

Just Browsing
11 Oct 05,, 21:51
1. "This process may not require the participation of Pakistan but if you are planning to send seperatist Sunnis across the border then it does concearn Pakistan as well."

2." ... , (assume for one sec that this plan works), if Pakistan does not stop the insurgency sponsorship, training camps etc then Jehadis will always cross over ..."

3. " ... Also any plan that deals with religion ie Sunnis who decide to leave can get money and leave will never work in India as the supreme court will deeem it unconstitutional. ... "

4. " ... Any partition along religious lines will never work ... "

5. " ... and I for one cannot see the morality ... "

6. " ... sure you may have a seperatist in Kashmir but that does not mean that he should have to leave because Kashmir and his village is his as well ... "

7. " ... Partition was wrong in 47 and in 2004 is does not become any more right... "

8. " ... A plan will only work if both parties accept it. ... "

1. The author is not counting on sending them to Pakistan. There are 3 pages in the thread that I gave as a link ( in case, you may have not noticed his statement to this effect on a latter page).

2. This can occur irrespective of whether there is a Kashmir problem or not. This has to do with, what the author calls, "Sunnification". For proof, see Assam & West Bengal. Only the players are different. In a 100+ years, we'll have 50.1 % Sunnis there, followed by a demand for plebiscite.

The solution to this problem is a Secure border which has nothing to do with Kashmir only or Pakistan.

In Kosovo, the process of Sunnification took 600+ years till Sunnis drove the Serbs out of their land with the Serbian holy places left behind.

3. Can you cite the part of the Indian Constitution which forbids it?

Here is the link: http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/welcome.html

The Khalistanis went to Canada, UK & USA in thousands. They are running Gurdwaras & Sikh Madrassas in Canada & are very chummy with the local politicians, to my personal knowledge. The Supreme Court of India did not say that their leaving India was against the Indian Constitution. If it did, Khalistanis would be the first to try to blow it up.

4. We are not talking about partition of land but swapping of population. The author has nearly ruled out Pakistan in the scheme for this purpose.

5. Similarly, I cannot see the morality of cutting out the cancer tumour from my body because it is a part of my body. Even if it kills me.

I should not let Dawood Ibrahim leave Bombay in 1990 before he causes untold damage because he is a part of me & it'll be immoral.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not being sarcastic but merely satirical to quickly illustrate my point on a messageboard, hopefully to make you ponder the implications of the "morality".

6. That is right. And we should have stopped the Khalistanis too. And built some refugee camps in Haryana for Punjabi Hindus whom they were shooting in buses & shops.

We have done that for Kashmiri Pundits already.

( Again, it is satire & not sarcasm.)

Please see the last few posts in ths link (including Sep5, 2005) :

http://pub16.bravenet.com/forum/1349860828/show/453413

7. Again, as stated above, we are not talking about parttion of land.

8. Both? Who is both? The author's plan does not envisage Pakistan as a party.

Maybe you did not get a chance to look at the original Link in its entirety. The Link has 3 pages. At the bottom of page 1 & 2, there is 'Next |>' button on the Toobar to go to the next page.

Sameer
11 Oct 05,, 22:47
Before I do that, i have a question

Assume that say 15000 Sunnis wish to leave given adequate compensation, who takes them?

Where do they go?

Will Canada take an infux of immigrants beyound its quota?
Pakistan?

So essentially if these people do not wish to be Indian, we legitimize their seperation by offering them compensation and then what make them into refugees?

You see such a plan can only work when you have a willing country to take the people and a small number of people ie in the hundreds, no country will take more than a few hundred people...


As far as Khalistan, its dead, life has moved on, Punjabis have moved on and today the army chief and prime minister are Sikhs and Sikhs in large numbers were present to greet Natwar SIngh when he showed up to Montreal a month ago and cheered him.

Also Pakistan does play a role because it sends jehadis across, i do not see how the author's plan will stop the blowing up of armymen and civilians?

in any event i know how to use a forum, i will go through it tomorrow and come back to you.

Just Browsing
12 Oct 05,, 00:20
Before I do that, i have a question

Assume that say 15000 Sunnis wish to leave given adequate compensation, who takes them? Where do they go? Will Canada take an infux of immigrants beyound its quota? Pakistan? So essentially if these people do not wish to be Indian, we legitimize their seperation by offering them compensation and then what make them into refugees? You see such a plan can only work when you have a willing country to take the people and a small number of people ie in the hundreds, no country will take more than a few hundred people... As far as Khalistan, its dead, life has moved on, Punjabis have moved on and today the army chief and prime minister are Sikhs and Sikhs in large numbers were present to greet Natwar SIngh when he showed up to Montreal a month ago and cheered him. Also Pakistan does play a role because it sends jehadis across, i do not see how the author's plan will stop the blowing up of armymen and civilians? in any event i know how to use a forum, i will go through it tomorrow and come back to you.

I can give a detailed answer to each & every point right now.

But, to make this exchange more productive, I'll wait for your next post so you have more info on the proposal.

There are 2 names mentioned on that forum worth explaining. 'Sheikh Chilli' & 'Dr. Apsiataab Singh'. They are 2 foaming-at-the-mouth rabid Indophobes who finance, through advertising, a Pakistani website pretending to be South Asian to generate traffic.

People on that forum know these 2 characters well. So, it is an in-joke which, I felt, needed to be explained to you in advance.

Talk to you soon.

Sameer
12 Oct 05,, 05:17
Ok i went through 3 of the 3 pages. A chap named Rahul came up with the idea on a ong road trip.

First off here are the problems with it, al my opinion of course.

1) You are asking the GOI to accept that there are Indian citizens who are willing to leave the country for money, ie 5000 dollars. Now i read the part about excludable Sunnis and how step one would involve only a secret list of 1% etc etc at first, ie baby steps and I am sure that you could find willing customers in the valley but at the end of the day, the GOI will suddenly have to announce that there is a Kashmir problem wherein people wish to seperate and we are willing to bribe them and let them leave their land. Honestly, what Indian Govt will ever propose such a plan? very risky move politically.
Answer: You would for one need a Prime Minister who is very popular and has a majority Government willing to support him. Neither the BJP nor the Congress would fit in that category. Kangress' allies would quickly shoot down the idea before it ever took off. BJP?
Who? Advani? Modi? the BJP is in shambles when it comes to leadship.
2) It was also mentioned as a crocodile in that thread, ie the borders are quite porous, Pakistan will never agree to this plan, that is a guarantee but they will probably end up letting their brothers cross. However any half decent PR manager could turn this into "the Muslim exodus from the evil Indians' grip". Wont score us brownie points and God knows our politicians love brownie points. Now there is the issue of insurgency which is the problem, had that not existed, the Kashmiris, a very laid back people (heck i am of Kashmiri origin) would have probably been happy enjoying fast economic growth right now. Congress screwed up in the 70s and 80s, had they not done so there would have never been a seperatist movement but getting back to my point, Rahul's point does not address Pakistan's claim on the land. We all know that this Muslim brotherhood thing only works for the masses. Gaining territorial expansion is their true goal and they will not stop the insurgency. If the insurgency continues and it will as long as we let Pakistan continue, you cannot have any returns of Pundits or settlement by other citizens from across the country. Investment climate will still be karab.

Now I see where this may go here

India may now say, look people who wanted to leave have left, people who have stayed back want to be part of India, Pakistan can buzz off now, ie problem solved.

However i doubt that the Pakistani sponsored "independence struggle" will stop.

The more I think about it, the more i realize that its probably a very cunning plan to outmanouver the Pakistani leadership but they will counter it, they will have to. they may let in a few brothers but they will not let in more than that, imagine even 100000 people taking up this offer, not only will this cost us a huge sum and long term profits on that investment may be iffy at best bt Paksitan will not be able to take on such an influx anyway. Canada will not, the US wont, what country will take up thousands of people?


Again i have to conclude that in the Indian context of things, plans need to have a constraint, ie politics. Indian politicians will not encourage paid immigration, its just not going to happen. And what happens now, i am scared that once you set an example, every single person who gets a visa to Canada or any other western country may apply for the 5000 dollar gift, what will you tell them? Only kashmiris got such a deal, that would mean that you would have to legislate a seperate law excluding all other Indian citizens who are not kashmiris from getting such a sum, that just wont happen.

Sorry i may not be specific or clear because i wrote this quickly, perhaps i will have to clarify and correct a few things later...

Sameer
12 Oct 05,, 05:36
Here is a counter by Pakistna

Get 1% of the population to say the following

"We dont want the money, we will stay in our land and fight the evil Yindus"

result

insurgency continues.

Just Browsing
12 Oct 05,, 05:56
"Ok i went through 3 of the 3 pages. A chap named Rahul came up with the idea on a ong road trip. ...
...
... Sorry i may not be specific or clear because i wrote this quickly, perhaps i will have to clarify and correct a few things later... "Perfect.

Now, Sameerji, may I ask for your permission to cut & paste your entire response here, & post it under your name on that Discussion Thread at:

http://pub16.bravenet.com/forum/1349860828/show/475088/3

He will fit your objections in the 'Crocodile-Bullet' Framework, on Thursday. According to his 'Soccer metaphor', he'll schedule a comprehensive response. Once that happens either I can come back here & draw it to your attention on this thread.

Or, if you prefer, I can copy & post his response from that Forum to this thread so you could avoid the inconvenience of having to go there.

We have nothing to lose.

What'll be your pleasure?

Just Browsing
12 Oct 05,, 06:07
'Here is a counter by Pakistna. Get 1% of the population to say the following "We dont want the money, we will stay in our land and fight the evil Yindus" result insurgency continues."Beautiful !

Similar to my request outlined in my previous Post, I can include this statement of yours also under your name with your permission, as suggeted before.

Sameer
12 Oct 05,, 15:03
Go ahead mate