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Canadian decision to replace Leopard with Stryker 'morally wrong'

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  • Canadian decision to replace Leopard with Stryker 'morally wrong'

    'Morally wrong'

    A report warned five years ago that the army's plan to replace its tanks with a lighter armoured vehicle would cost Canadian lives. Now, the government is set to approve the $600M project anyway. Team predicts higher casualties, reduced combat

    David Pugliese
    The Ottawa Citizen

    Military researchers warned five years ago that replacing the tank with a lighter armoured vehicle, similar to what is to be purchased as part of the army's modernization plan, would not only cost Canadian lives, but would be morally and ethically wrong.

    Government officials confirmed yesterday that Defence Minister John McCallum is expected to announce within the next few weeks the $600 million purchase of the Stryker Mobile Gun System. The eight-wheeled Stryker, equipped with a 105-millimetre gun, would replace the military's Leopard tanks, and is seen by Mr. McCallum as a key part of a revitalized army.

    But in 1998, Department of National Defence researchers examined how an eight-wheeled vehicle equipped with a 105-millimetre gun would perform during wartime. During a simulated battle, units equipped with such an armoured combat vehicle, or ACV, suffered up to three times the casualties of those outfitted with U.S.-made M1A2 tanks.

    "Being aware of the ACV's limitations and deliberately purchasing it as an alternative to the MBT (main battle tank) in warfighting would be morally and ethically wrong and courts defeat," the research team warned.

    "What is illustrated is that the firepower and protection limitation of the ACV resulted in much heavier Canadian losses," they added.

    The study recommended against replacing the tank with such a lighter vehicle.

    It did not specifically mention the Stryker, which has only recently been developed.

    Army official Col. Bob Gunn acknowledged the report and its conclusions, adding that it is well known in defence circles that a tank will outperform a wheeled armoured vehicle in a war. "(But) given the resources which we have, the things we think which we'll do over the next little while, the guys who make decisions and accept risks are saying, 'Maybe we can do better by not having a tank,'" explained Col. Gunn, who is involved in determining the army's equipment needs.

    He said in the past the army has tended not to make much use of its Leopard tanks on overseas missions. At the same time, military strategists have determined that in a future conflict it is likely that Canada would be operating alongside U.S. forces. "We think in the future when we go into a position where there are (enemy) tanks, our good friends to the south will be there with their tanks," said Col. Gunn.

    That would free up Canadian military units to concentrate on other tasks, he added.

    The 1998 report also noted that in missions other than war, such as on peacekeeping operations, the tank also came out ahead over the wheeled armoured combat vehicle.

    The Stryker is an improved version of the Canadian army's LAV-3, which troops from Canadian Forces Base Petawawa are now using in Kabul. The main difference the Stryker Mobile Gun System has over the LAV-3 is that it is outfitted with the 105-millimetre tank gun.

    Canadian Alliance defence critic Jay Hill agrees that the army could use Strykers but not at the expense of the Leopard tanks. "If (Mr. McCallum) replaces the Leopards with Strykers it's just going to be another case of where we are voluntarily reducing our capability," said Mr. Hill. "As soon as you take away that main battle tank capability you're further reducing the types of jobs you can do."

    Mr. Hill said the government should follow its own 1994 defence White Paper which called for a well equipped force that could be sent overseas.

    Still others are concerned how the purchase of such vehicles might affect the future roles of the Canadian military. In an article produced in 2001 for the Army Doctrine and Training Bulletin, Maj. Lee Hammond noted that the U.S. decision to equip some of its units with Strykers over the next few years could prompt a call for Canada to follow a similar path.

    "In my opinion, should the Canadian Army follow this route, and we lose our MBT (main battle tank) capabilities, we will be well on the way to becoming a constabulary, non-warfighting army," the major wrote. He noted that as an artillery officer he believed he was in a position to write a non-biased analysis of the situation.

    The Stryker family of armoured vehicles has also had its share of critics in the U.S. military. Some American officers argue that the move toward such lighter forces is dangerous. They believe that heavier armoured vehicles are needed on battlefields such as in Iraq. Wheeled vehicles, such as the Stryker and LAV-3, while good on roadways, lack the mobility for cross-country warfare, they maintain.

    © Copyright 2003 The Ottawa Citizen
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

  • #2
    Some background to this.

    For a long time now, the CF has been asking how to stay effective given its relative size and budget (or lack there of).

    There are some conclusions

    1) Land Force will always fight as part of a Coalition.
    2) Land Force is obligated by law (North Atlantic Treaty) to provide a battalion group within 10 days of a NATO or UN request, three battle groups or a brigade group within 30 days.
    3) Land Force is committed to the Immediate Reaction Force

    Given these conditions, Land Force geared itself more towards a recee role. Knowing the enemy before he knows you is nine-tenths of the battle.

    Under Coalition conditions, LF wants the recee bde role for the div.

    As such, the concepts of tanks, while still very valid, don't quite fit into this new doctrine.

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree with Colonel on knowing the enemy before they know you, because if you know how they fight and how they deploy their troops, tanks, artillery, etc. you can use the Strykers (however crappy they are) to do some damage.

      Comment


      • #4
        Like everything else in the world, this ain't a clear cut answer. No doubt the CF would be taking a very hard look at what the 3-7Cav did.

        Comment


        • #5
          "Given these conditions, Land Force geared itself more towards a recee role. Knowing the enemy before he knows you is nine-tenths of the battle."

          The No.1 overriding lesson of all who cycle NTC.

          He who sees first and shoots first dies last.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well, the question is is the Stryker MGS adequate for the job of force protection?

            There are things to consider.

            All Canadian LAV-3s and COYOTEs are armed with the 25mm Bushwacker.

            A Canadian LAV-3 infantry section is the most heavily armed section on earth (see photo).

            Is the MGS as effective as the Leo C2 (Not a chance in hell).

            Is it more deployable than the Leo C2 (Yes, when the Royal Canadian Dragoons deployed a Leo C2 troop (4 tanks), they had the stripped the sqdrn of its maintenance force, reducing the rest of the sqdrn's effectiveness). With the MGS, you can share the maintenance pool with the rest of the LAV-3s.

            Is the MGS best solution the CF can afford? It's the one option that we can match numbers with cost but it would not replace tanks. The question is are we asking it to do a tank's job?

            Is it adequate for force protection given the LAV-3s and COYOTEs 25mm firepower? That's the $600mil question.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #7
              You know, for all these high tech wonder IFV's, i'd just prefer an M-113 with a turret and FIELD INSTALLABLE bolt-on applique armor.

              After 50+ years, the M-113 is still as good a PC as exists.

              It's like the B-52 of land forces.

              Comment


              • #8
                http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/att...=&postid=11763 Damn Col... where's the Kitchen sink?



                edit: dammit I hate computers
                Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

                Comment


                • #9
                  They're wearing them on their heads. Just can't cook with it.

                  It's kinda funny that even those armies that served with us are continually be amazed just how advance we are. Like I say, everybody forgets us Canadians and when we come out with bleeding edge developments, everybody can't believe it.
                  Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 29 Oct 03,, 22:47.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Oh, they've got the steel pots that you can actually cook in, shave with, and a hundred other uses that you just can't do with a Kevlar?

                    What the Colonel said makes sense. If the Canadian forces are always going to be part of a coalition, and their primary mission is recce, then a Stryker makes much better sense than a tank.
                    (Just my civilian opinion though)
                    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
                      They're wearing them on their heads. Just can't cook with it.

                      It's kinda funny that even those armies that served with us are continually be amazed just how advance we are. Like I say, everybody forgets us Canadians and when we come out with bleeding edge developments, everybody can't believe it.
                      The surprise is that you guys appear to be have built a device that allows you to ignore phsyical space limitations....(j/k) :)
                      Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Tanks work just fine as reece units.

                        You need some PC's for dismount scout patrols, OP's, etc.- but MBT's add a lot of teeth to a scouting unit should they be forced into a fight or stumble into a juicy target of opportunity.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Just to re-itterate, the MGS is not replacing tanks. We're buying some 60 odd vehicles which doesn't even come close to replacing the 124 Leo C2s we've got. Even with attrition, the Leo C2s are going to stay in service until at least 2011, more likely 2025.

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