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Praxus
19 Sep 05,, 21:53
The greeks practiced a form of martial arts called "pankration". As you are probably well aware this form of martial arts existed for nearly 7 centuries before what we currently know as eastern martial arts, came along. On many of the vase paintings depicting this in practice they use many things we associate with modern eastern martial arts. We all know that Alexander's army reached as far as India. Do you think the idea that Alexanders army brought Pankration to India is possible (and from there spread to the far east)?

Officer of Engineers
19 Sep 05,, 22:11
The very fact that Alexander faced an Indian Army already states that India had some form of martial system already in place.

Blademaster
21 Sep 05,, 04:11
Don't forget that the Indian army faced by the greeks was a professionally trained army. The little I read about Alexander's campaigns in India is convincing me that Alexander did not have much success as propoganda claims to be. If Alexander was successful, we would hear more about it.

There's a saying.

"Victory is thunderous, defeat is silent." Not the exact wording. No one likes to write about their own defeats. They like to write their own exploits. The reason why Indian books about Alexander's campaigns are very few and offers very little details is because almost of all India's history writings were nearly wiped out in the countless invasions and raids by Mughals, Turks, and Afghans. We had a great library, one of the greatest in the history of mankind in Bihar, modern state of India. It rivaled or surpassed the great library of Alexandria but was destroyed in an invasion by the Mughals.

And also, a lot of books were strongly discounted by British historians who had their own agenda. They purposedfully "recycled" or "misplaced" most surviving Indian historian accounts of Alexander and his campaigns.

I wish I could have the proof that you seek but it is not translated.

lemontree
21 Sep 05,, 10:29
The greeks practiced a form of martial arts called "pankration". As you are probably well aware this form of martial arts existed for nearly 7 centuries before what we currently know as eastern martial arts, came along. On many of the vase paintings depicting this in practice they use many things we associate with modern eastern martial arts. We all know that Alexander's army reached as far as India. Do you think the idea that Alexanders army brought Pankration to India is possible (and from there spread to the far east)?
Kalaripayattu was the ancient Indian martial art of Kerela and some parts of Karnataka. These regions had no influsence from Alexander of the Greeks who came late. The only Macedonian links are found in Kashmir - The place where Alexander's horse, Bucephalus died is known as Bafliaze. Though some dispute it to be near Jhelum Pakistan. Mendhar town in Poonch district (India) of Jammu and Kashmir state, is name after Menander, the greek general of Alexander.

Jay
21 Sep 05,, 13:06
Popular heresay is that Kalaripayattu influenced Chinese Martial arts, as buddhist monks from ancient India like Bodhidharma travelled to China to spread buddhism.

indianguy4u
21 Sep 05,, 13:10
Don't forget that the Indian army faced by the greeks was a professionally trained army. The little I read about Alexander's campaigns in India is convincing me that Alexander did not have much success as propoganda claims to be. If Alexander was successful, we would hear more about it.

There's a saying.

"Victory is thunderous, defeat is silent." Not the exact wording. No one likes to write about their own defeats. They like to write their own exploits. The reason why Indian books about Alexander's campaigns are very few and offers very little details is because almost of all India's history writings were nearly wiped out in the countless invasions and raids by Mughals, Turks, and Afghans. We had a great library, one of the greatest in the history of mankind in Bihar, modern state of India. It rivaled or surpassed the great library of Alexandria but was destroyed in an invasion by the Mughals.

And also, a lot of books were strongly discounted by British historians who had their own agenda. They purposedfully "recycled" or "misplaced" most surviving Indian historian accounts of Alexander and his campaigns.

I wish I could have the proof that you seek but it is not translated.
Wasnt he left after his war with Porus due to rising indiscipline in his army. So he didnt get to the ganges plains, so less stories of his conquests in India.

Officer of Engineers
21 Sep 05,, 15:59
The Indian legacy of the Eastern Martial Arts is the spritiuality almost to the point of religion in the Eastern Martial Arts. Every nation had some sort of unarmed combat system developed independently ever since people learned to start clobbering each other with their bare hands. Boxing and wrestling are just as effective of a martial arts as karate and judo but the formers lacked the spirituality and meditation aspects. That people is the Indian legacy.

Praxus
21 Sep 05,, 20:01
Don't forget that the Indian army faced by the greeks was a professionally trained army. The little I read about Alexander's campaigns in India is convincing me that Alexander did not have much success as propoganda claims to be. If Alexander was successful, we would hear more about it.

Then read more.


And also, a lot of books were strongly discounted by British historians who had their own agenda. They purposedfully "recycled" or "misplaced" most surviving Indian historian accounts of Alexander and his campaigns.

Bull ****, prove it.

Blademaster
22 Sep 05,, 00:22
Then read more.



Bull ****, prove it.

Go read the archives at Indian history sites documenting how British historians would "alter" these materials or misplace it. Google it.

Praxus
22 Sep 05,, 02:26
Go read the archives at Indian history sites documenting how British historians would "alter" these materials or misplace it. Google it.

What makes you think they are valid? Perhaps they are trying to distract from the fact that they got their ass beat down by a bunch of rustics from Macedon.

lemontree
22 Sep 05,, 04:41
BM,
Cool it man. Let it be we can discuss Alexander in another thread. Lets just stick to Praxus's initial topic.
...back to topic.
Being a student of ju-jitsu, I have found it very similar to kalaripayattu. In our federation there is a kalari master who teaches us his art. To be a kalaripayattu master one has to also master the art of acupressure, to provide immediate cure to injuries caused by over enthusiastic students. :)

Sameer
24 Sep 05,, 16:38
I dont mean to hijack this thread but King Porus did not control a major Indian kingdom, his kingdom was of moderate size and strength, Alexander never made it to the stronger and much richer kingdoms to the east.

The fact that Alexander's bloodiest battle was in india speaks volumes about the challenges he faced, that too from a frontier kingdom, the Nandas were waiting for him with thousands of elephants and had the economic power t sustain a war with Greece for decades if necessary.

Because Alexander never really made it into India, we really do not learn much about him, he has never affected any of our lives because he never made it past frontier states of the land.

The only thing I can think of Alexander did indirectly was to give an easier chance for the Mauryan empire to establish itslf in the western areas of India where Alexander vacated. the Mauryan empire accounted for 28% of world trade and output until its collapse, even under the Guptas later, India never had it so good again.

In contrast we learn a lot from the Muslim invasions because THEY made it almost all the way into the kingdoms and into India.

Such claims that the Greeks brought martial arts are completely unfounded and based on the Eurocentric view of the world.
i wonder what would have happened had he faced the Chinese.

Sameer
24 Sep 05,, 16:51
Err martial arts in India has its roots in the south, had it started in the north, i could have imagined a Greek link, in the south nothing is known of Alexander, too too far away.

Sameer
24 Sep 05,, 17:02
In the north western part of Ancient India one can see an Indo-Greek link due to coinage technques later used by the Mauryan Empire and certain elements in artichecture especially in idol sculpture.

Praxus
24 Sep 05,, 17:08
The fact that Alexander's bloodiest battle was in india speaks volumes about the challenges he faced, that too from a frontier kingdom, the Nandas were waiting for him with thousands of elephants and had the economic power t sustain a war with Greece for decades if necessary.

The fact that Alexander won a battle thousands of miles from home after defeating armies multiples of his size with little to no greek reinforcements speaks volumes about his capacity as a military general and the capacity of his Macedonian army as a whole. Tell me do you think that a single Indian kingdom could conquer all of India, invade Persia, conquer that, move into Asia minor conquer that, cross the Hellespont into Greece and defeat a greek army in Thrace or Macedon with little to no Indian reinforcements?


Such claims that the Greeks brought martial arts are completely unfounded and based on the Eurocentric view of the world.

I never claimed that, learn to read before you make sh1t up.


i wonder what would have happened had he faced the Chinese.

The macedonian phalangite would have a tremendous advantage against cavalry. I don't know much about Chinese weaponry of the time, so I can't really comment.


Err martial arts in India has its roots in the south, had it started in the north, i could have imagined a Greek link, in the south nothing is known of Alexander, too too far away.

This is all you had to say:-p

Sameer
24 Sep 05,, 17:14
Alexander had reinforcements with Persians troops loyal to him and an Indian ally named the King of Taxilla.
The Mauryan Empire in its height never invaded anyone else because they never needed to, they had their hands full maintaining the Empire as it was. Besides we had the gold already, there was no need to go and steal it from others. :)

What would we gain from going thousands of kms to the west when we had the gold in the country? Macedonia was not known as gold hotspot number one, sure maybe Persia...

No one doubts that Alexander was a great General, how you concluded that I said that.....

I said Alexander had little impact and very little of greek culture ever made it throughout India and SINCE THE TOPIC WAS ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS, SOMETHING THAT CAME FROM THE SOUTH, it has no relevance.


Please do not use words like "shxt" etc, keep that for your private life, this is an open forum.

Praxus
24 Sep 05,, 17:50
Alexander had reinforcements with Persians troops loyal to him and an Indian ally named the King of Taxilla.

"...with little to no greek reinforcements..."

Re-read my post.


The Mauryan Empire in its height never invaded anyone else because they never needed to, they had their hands full maintaining the Empire as it was. Besides we had the gold already, there was no need to go and steal it from others. :)

I didn't ask if they wanted to do it, I asked if they could do it.


What would we gain from going thousands of kms to the west when we had the gold in the country? Macedonia was not known as gold hotspot number one, sure maybe Persia...

I didn't ask that.


No one doubts that Alexander was a great General, how you concluded that I said that.....

I was trying to prove that his and his armies feat in India was amazing.


I said Alexander had little impact and very little of greek culture ever made it throughout India and SINCE THE TOPIC WAS ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS, SOMETHING THAT CAME FROM THE SOUTH, it has no relevance.
.

Which is I suppose why you said this: The fact that Alexander's bloodiest battle was in india speaks volumes about the challenges he faced, that too from a frontier kingdom, the Nandas were waiting for him with thousands of elephants and had the economic power t sustain a war with Greece for decades if necessary.

The Persians had the economic power to sustain war with Greece ad infinitum, but they didn't because their armies were anihilated. My point was that; It was his bloodiest battle because he had few greek reinforcements and his men were tired and wanted to go back to their homes, not because India had the capacity to stop him.

Sameer
24 Sep 05,, 17:54
Err you seem to be stuck on the same unrelated mantra.
"The Persians had the economic power to sustain war with Greece ad infinitum, but they didn't because their armies were anihilated. My point was that; It was his bloodiest battle because he had few greek reinforcements and his men were tired and wanted to go back to their homes, not because India had the capacity to stop him."

Indians were not Persians and the Nandas were not Persians, hence you cannot conclude that Alex would have won or lost, do you even know the disposition of the Nandas?


I will leave you to that.

The topic was about martial arts


More than 93% of Ndia was not invaded, Alexander had at best a marginal impact on India, martial arts came from the south, no impact at all there.

story ends

Alexander had the hardest battle in India, that is fact, i am not interested in the reasons why because its irrelevant to this thread, had you started an Alexander thread, I would comment furthur on your posts regarding Alexander and Indian empries and their abilities.

In sum he faught against a marginal King, then he left and whatever Greek influence there was in the extreme north west of the land was quickly replaced by the Mauryan wave. This was what I was trying to put across, not Alexander's abilities as a General. Alex apparently had a lot of respect for the fighting abilities of King Porus.

Alex did not invade India when he only made it to the north west and then left :rolleyes:

The Muslims did they INVADED INDIA. (minus the extreme southern kingdoms.)

You see we Indians are very aware of what invasion means and what "great feats" are all about.

Yes Alex was a great general and accomplished a lot for his age, invading India proper is not one of them. hence he does not play a great role in Indian history and is barely mentioned while Muslims invasions are. this was why I brought up Alex as we were talking about martial arts, the Greeks or macedonians never had such an influence in the land.

Sameer
24 Sep 05,, 18:57
Some info about Indian martial arts

This indigenous martial arts, under the name of Kalari or Kalaripayit exists only in South India today. Kalarippayat is said to be the world's original martial art. Originating at least 1,300 years ago, India's Kalaripayit is the oldest martial art taught today. It is also the most potentially violent, because students advance from unarmed combat to the use of swords, sharpened flexible metal lashes, and peculiar three-bladed daggers. More than 2,000 years old, it was developed by warriors of the Cheras kingdom in Kerala. Training followed strict rituals and guidelines. The entrance to the 14 m-by-7 m arena, or kalari, faced east and had a bare earth floor. Fighters took Shiva and Shakti, the god and goddess of power, as their deities. From unarmed kicks and punches, kalarippayat warriors would graduate to sticks, swords, spears and daggers and study the marmas—the 107 vital spots on the human body where a blow can kill. Training was conducted in secret, the lethal warriors unleashed as a surprise weapon against the enemies of Cheras.

Father and founder of Zen Buddhism (called C’han in China), Boddidharma, a Brahmin born in Kacheepuram in Tamil Nadu, in 522 A.D. arrived at the courts of the Chinese Emperor Liang Nuti, of the 6th dynasty. He taught the Chinese monks Kalaripayattu, a very ancient Indian martial art, so that they could defend themselves against the frequent attacks of bandits. In time, the monks became famous all over China as experts in bare-handed fighting, later known as the Shaolin boxing art. The Shaolin temple which has been handed back a few years ago by the communist Government to the C’han Buddhist monks, inheritors of Boddhidharma’s spiritual and martial teachings, by the present Chinese Government, is now open to visitors. On one of the walls, a fresco can be seen, showing Indian dark-skinned monks, teaching their lighter-skinned Chinese brothers the art of bare-handed fighting. On this painting are inscribed: “Tenjiku Naranokaku” which means: “the fighting techniques to train the body (which come) from India…”

Kalari payatt was banned by the British in 1793. (Refer to chapter on European Imperialism).

(For more information on martial arts refer to chapter India and China and Kalarippayattu and Kalari Payatte - The martial art of Kerala

(source: The Boddhisattva Warriors: The Origin, Inner Philosophy, History and Symbolism of the Buddhist Martial Art Within India and China - By Terence Dukes/ Shifu Nagaboshi Tomio p. 3 - 158-174 and 242. A Western Journalist on India: a ferengi's columns - By Francois Gautier Har-Anand Publications January 2001 ISBN 8124107955 p. 155-158).

Silambam – Indian Stick Fighting





The art Nillaikalakki Silambam was brought to the royal court during the reign of the Cheran, Cholan and Pandian emperors, once powerful rulers of India.

***


The art Nillaikalakki Silambam, which exists for more than five thousand years, is an authentic art which starts with the stick called Silambamboo (1.68 meters long). It originates from the Krunji mountains of south India, and is as old as the Indian sub-continent itself.

The natives called Narikuravar were using a staff called Silambamboo as a weapon to defend themselves against wild animals, and also to display their skill during their religious festivals. The Hindu scholars and yogis who went to the Krunji mountains to meditate got attracted by the display of this highly skilled spinning Silambamboo. The art Nillaikalakki Silambam therefore became a part of the Hindu scholars and yogis training, as they were taught by the Narikuravar.

They brought the art to the royal court during the reign of the Cheran, Cholan and Pandian emperors, once powerful rulers of India.

(source: Silamban – Indian Stick Fighting).
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/War_in_Ancient_India.htm


on a side note, remember King Porus' elephants did not have armour, the Nandas did and their cavalry had too as they were much richer than Porus. The nandas also had artillery.