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  • A dictator finally losing it.

    This is not a Pakistan bashing thread.

    Originally posted by Bismark
    I am the state
    A time comes in every leader when he finally becomes too paranoid, too scared of losing power, and losing out touch with the outside world, stuck up in his/her own little world.

    Democracy cures that, but in monarchies and dictatorial govts, we end up witnessing a not too pretty decline of the leader.

    Opponents are enemies of country: Musharraf

    The very title, a dictator calling his personal opponents as the enemies of the state

    Dawn Report - http://www.dawn.com/2005/09/18/top8.htm

    NEW YORK, Sept 17: Pandemonium broke out at a meeting organized to promote Pakistan’s soft image when after a confrontation with human rights activists an irate President Pervez Musharraf declared that those who opposed his policies were the enemies of Pakistan.

    “You are against me and Pakistan,” said the president when a human rights activist referred to his alleged comments in a Washington Post interview which quoted him (Gen Musharraf) as saying that women exploited rape to get visas.

    Provoked by a single question, the president allowed an event held to promote his government’s pro-women policies to degenerate into a bout between himself and part of the invited audience.

    “I am a fighter, I will fight you. I do not give up and if you can shout, I can shout louder,” said Gen Musharraf.

    “I wish you had quoted Muslim scholars as opposed to British scholars,” said the president to the woman who had quoted some American scholars to make her point.

    Responding to the woman’s charge that he had retracted his interview to the Washington Post in which he was quoted as saying that some women used rape to get visa, Gen Musharraf said: “Lady, you are used to people who tell lies. I am not one of them.”

    As the human rights and women groups protested outside the Roosevelt Hotel against the treatment of rape victims in Pakistan Gen Musharraf said that such protests should be held in and not outside Pakistan.

    When a woman raised her voice to ask a question, the president said: “Are you a Benazir supporter? A lady was prime minister of Pakistan twice, ask her what she has done for Pakistan.”

    In an indirect reference to opposition politicians in Pakistan, the president said: “We have introduced new leaders who don’t tell lies unlike your leaders who did.”

    “You have disappointed me. I am disappointed with people like you. You work with people who looted and plundered the nation. You are against national interest, you have your own agenda.”

    He said that people like her had some personal agenda for highlighting cases that hurt Pakistan’s reputation. “I know that there are people with vested interests and financial interests who are against Pakistan.”

    The president also referred to the Post interview, saying, “I never said that. I am not so silly or stupid to make such remarks.”

    Referring to some NGOs who raised the issues of Pakistani women outside the country, he said that they were also hurting national interests, prompting a woman activist to say to him that he should not pitch the state against the groups who work for human rights.

    When the altercation began to get uglier, Pakistan’s ambassador to the US Jehangir Karamat, who was Gen Musharraf’s senior in the army, approached the podium and moved the president away by gently patting his shoulders.

    The president, however, returned to the podium and said he was not against those women who were working for women’s cause.

    Earlier in his speech, Gen Musharraf highlighted two issues — violence against women and gender inequality —, saying that the violence was abhorrent and shameful and his government was making laws to end this curse.

    He acknowledged that Pakistan’s record on violence against women left much to be desired. “We should be ashamed of it and improve the situation for ourselves and the world to see,” he said.

    But he firmly stated that he stood opposed to anyone who sought to single out Pakistan by highlighting individual cases outside Pakistan, given that rape was a worldwide issue.

    ---

    I believe this is the beginning of a not too pretty fall from all grace for Musharraf. He is past his time, he knows it, and he fears it. I'ld invite the participants to compare his career with similar times of other dictators.

    An interesting comparison would be with the career of Mao. But then he had his wife usurp power in his last few years.
    Last edited by Srirangan; 19 Sep 05,, 03:27.
    I rant, therefore I am.

  • #2
    Musharraf has been caught on the wrong foot and it is a serious matter.

    In fact, he has slandered Pakistan on foreign soil. This is unpardonable for a Head of any country.

    He obviously is using the the age old trick of shouting down his opponents as also using the anti Pakistani card on them.

    His problem is that back home he is seen to be too subservient to Bush's dictates, which is being played well by the Opposition and that is being believed by the general public. Thereafter, making this huge faux pas he has been cornered by the Jamaat crowd and thus he is emerging as the drowning man clutching at straws.
    Last edited by Ray; 21 Sep 05,, 17:25.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by srirangan
      This is not a Pakistan bashing thread.
      No its not...but already the third one on the same topic!
      Whats the point of starting a third thread using same arguments?

      Comment


      • #4
        One would tend to believe that the Musharraf regime is coming to an end. The man is in a big bind. He is doing the impossible, mending fences with Israel, to keep his largest supporter (America) pleased. Israel doesn't mind it, considering it has absolutely nothing to lose and lot of PR to gain.

        If only Musharraf had stepped down gracefully when he had the chance in Jan 2005, he would indeed have a legacy worth remembering.
        I rant, therefore I am.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Neo
          No its not...but already the third one on the same topic!
          Whats the point of starting a third thread using same arguments?
          Any other thread that talks about the carteer of Musharaf? No. Please don't bring down the level of discussion. I would really like to hear your opinions of the career of Musharraf at this point of time. :)
          I rant, therefore I am.

          Comment


          • #6
            US obviously keeps a high profile of him...

            New York, September 21, 2005


            While Pakistan is not a complete democracy, its president Pervez Musharraf is an extraordinary man who is trying to create a stable nation, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has said.

            Speaking to the Time Magazine Editorial Board on Tuesday, Rice listed the ways in which Pakistan had changed after 9/11, and that included the rapprochement between Islamabad and New Delhi.

            "Pakistan is an interesting case because, yes, it is not 100 per cent where we would like it to be in terms of democratic development or having rooted out extremism but if you look at where it was four years ago and where it is now, it is night and day," Rice said during an extended interview while she was attending the UN General Assembly sessions here.

            Looking at the trends in Pakistan, she noted, "...in this case, you have somebody who, I think, has made a principled decision to rid Pakistan of its extremist elements and of the extremism that started to grip that country when it became a transit point for jihadists at the time of the Afghan war."

            She added that it was very close to destabilising the country and possibly leading to a " 'Talibanized' Pakistan".

            Rice noted how disgraced nuclear scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan was selling centrifuge technology to all kinds of people, a ring that had now been shut down.

            She also recalled how India and Pakistan were on the verge of war.

            "Four years ago, I will never forget Christmas 2001 on the phone with Colin Powell and Jack Straw (British foreign secretary), and David Manning (foreign policy advisor to Blair) trying to figure out who was going to visit from Great Britain or the US so that they wouldn't go to war between India and Pakistan.

            "Now, you have an Indian-Pakistani rapprochement in large part because Musharraf has taken a stand against extremism. You know, it's a very different picture and so I think he's a remarkable figure and he's making a difference."

            Responding to a question on Pakistan not allowing US forces on its soil even to track down Osama bin Laden, Rice countered the idea that Musharraf did not have the political will to catch the terrorist ring leader. It was difficult to catch bin Laden because of the tough terrain, she contended.

            "It is a tribal area, we assume, where until the last year or so, Pakistani forces had never gone and now there are tens and thousands of them up there and it's having an effect on the apparatus, but precisely where Osama bin Laden has been, I don't know.

            "So I don't think it's a lack of effort, or a lack of will, or a lack of desire that has made it difficult to find Osama bin Laden... But do the Pakistanis want to find him? Absolutely, particularly Musharraf who they tried to assassinate twice."

            "We have helped and enhanced their capabilities through assistance and through cooperation, and I think what they are probably better suited to this task than American forces would likely be."

            Rice also said the Al-Qaeda network had been pursued "very aggressively by the Pakistanis" and "I think they are going to continue to do it".

            The US secretary of state credited the predominantly anti-American stance of the Pakistani public to the decades of extremist propaganda, the madrassas, satellite TV and said, "It's also the case the Pakistanis felt abandoned by the US after the Afghan war and they have some reason to have felt exactly that."
            She praised Musharraf and his education minister for pursuing an enlightened policy of reform of madrassas and the public school system curriculum.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by srirangan
              Any other thread that talks about the carteer of Musharaf? No. Please don't bring down the level of discussion. I would really like to hear your opinions of the career of Musharraf at this point of time. :)
              There's a similar thread running in Asian Subforum called 'Musharraf's achievements'.

              Comment


              • #8
                Comparing this dictator with the rest of the pack. How has that ever been done before on these boards? Stop spamming threads with your posts, you have obviously posted that above mentioned article more than once, each and every time in the same context.
                I rant, therefore I am.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oh blimey.

                  First signs of political weakness, this kind of a conduct by a head of state.

                  Not a nice place to slander your political opponents either ( not abroad at least ! ).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My only question : What after Musharaff ?
                    When he dies/gets thrown out what is that he would be leaving behind ?

                    Institutions that bring stability to the country like :

                    - a judiciary that is supreme and independant based upon the secular laws of the civilised world

                    - a constitution that is secular in text and spirit, a election commission that guarantees a free and fair election(unlike the LB elections)

                    - a Army that will keep away from ruling the country.

                    - a legislative body, the only thing in the whole country to have powers to amend the constitution.

                    He will leave nothing of the above gentlemen.Nothing.

                    Now these are the kind of institutions that guarantee stability to any country until it matures.

                    You can see how the Election.Comm tries to reform elections here in India.You can see how the Army is so reluctant to even think about a coup in India.

                    Or get another country like the UK - find out what brings political stability to that country.Some form of the above mentioned institutions.

                    Why are educated Pakistanis not asking Musharaff to ensure the above institutions get their due independance and thus pave the way for Pakistan to become a truly secular democratic country ?

                    They choose to remain mesmerised by his 'charm' which is all nice and gives one a good feeling that the country is in safe hands.It is a feeling, not a fact.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The educated Pakistani is educated in hate and anti India rhetoric. Hence the Army has been all to successful playing the "big, evil India" card to hold onto power. The Army would do anything to retain their rule on Pak, and the educated civilians to dumb enough to notice it. Lack of what we call a civil society.
                      I rant, therefore I am.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Musharraf is the best bet after Ayub Khan to not only put Pakistan on its feet, but also to make it an acceptable partner in international equations.

                        Therefore, Musharraf remains an important player in the current world politics matrix.

                        Domestically, notwithstanding the desire of the elite of Pakistan, the voting population is not with Musharraf. The fact that he has been able to cobble up a pro Musharraf alliance to govern is misleading. It is more a result of lust for power that all politicians the world over display for the loaves and fish of office.

                        Musharraf has not been able to combat fundamentalism and sectarianism. He may have the desire, but he does not have the wherewithal; even his military is sharply divided on the issue with the balance tipping in favour of the fundamentalists. It is too recent for recall.

                        Islam is a very powerful religion and it binds the followers cutting across social divides. To believe otherwise, would be a fallacy. If it were not so, then Pakistan or Saudi Arabia (which is totally a closed and obscurantist society) would have rid themselves of the fundamentalists years ago.

                        In Pakistan, the fact that the MMA and the JEI flourishes is an indication of the hold the hardliners of Islam have.

                        The fact that Musharraf has not been able to implement the Madrassa reforms and has been pushing the dates forward every time also indicates that his hold over Pakistan has to be tempered with Islamic sensitivities, notwithstanding the image the English speaking population would like to convey to the world.

                        Therefore, Musharraf has to balance many contradictions. His outburst, as reported in the Washington Post, should surprise none since it is the frustration of grappling with his desires (which is good for Pakistan) with the realities of what he calls the "Pakistani environment". Anyone in his situation could have done a near similar thing and would have faced the same rebuke.

                        There are good reasons why the pace of democratisation is not being unduly pushed by those in Pakistan who are educated and wish genuinely for a stable and responsible Pakistan that is free of coups but with responsible corruption free govt, judciary and bureaucracy. A rapid change would possibly tread on too many toes, be it religious, feudal, sectarian etc. This could have a serious backlash and usher in forces that could take Pakistan into a tailspin. The morass has to be tackled with care.

                        Pakistan is moving towards a better future but it shall take time and it can only happen once the fundamentalist and the religious leaders and clerics are neutralised from politics and their grip on society dimmed. It is evident that Islamic tenets that are not in synchromesh with the international acceptability requires to be given a lower priority.

                        The AQ and the Taliban have a sizeable following since they have given a "personality" to Islam wherein they symbolises that Islam cannot be cowed down so to say. For a religion that feels that they have been incorrectly maligned and made a pariah such a feeling of being able to fight back is indeed "pwerful medicine" for the ego and self respect, even if the world feels otherwise. To the illiterate Moslems, these organisation is their alter ego and since the "battle" is against the US, which symbolises the western world of free society with the indicidual rights supreme over State and religion, any kwtowing to the US becomes a red rag to them.

                        Therefore, Musharraf's attempt to rehabilitate Paksitan (once nearly declared a failed and a terrorist state) in the international area at what appears to be a nudge from the US in general and Bush in particular, acts counterproductive to Musharraf's standing amongst his own people.

                        The recent statement from Rice while it may appear laudable is actually dangerous for Musharraf since it only appears to the Islamic adherents (less the educated elite) that Musharraf is being remotely controlled and it is an endorsement that Musharraf is playing as per Bush's tune.

                        Obviously, such sentiments should be conveyed privately lest it isolates Musharraf further from the general Pakistani public which does not view the US kindly.


                        "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                        I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                        HAKUNA MATATA

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Indian view on gen mushy doesnt change with whims & fancies of dubya ;).

                          “We have introduced new leaders who don’t tell lies unlike your leaders who did.”
                          Has general at last accepted the fact that his PM & other members of senate/parliament are his pupets. This statements does points to something .
                          Last edited by indianguy4u; 22 Sep 05,, 09:21.
                          Hala Madrid!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The awesome thing is, the opponents are the Mullahs and the feudal lords, which have ruled Pakistan in a dictatorial way. Now we have freedom and one Indian has a problem, haha, newsflash, see if we give a damn.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Asim Aquil
                              The awesome thing is, the opponents are the Mullahs and the feudal lords, which have ruled Pakistan in a dictatorial way. Now we have freedom and one Indian has a problem, haha, newsflash, see if we give a damn.
                              How can feudal be dictatorial? That has to be one of the dumbest statements you've ever made.

                              Oh btw WHAT freedom? "If you can shout, I can shout louder." ;)
                              I rant, therefore I am.

                              Comment

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