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  • India: Enter the Scorpene?

    This looks very positive for the IN:

    http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx...fx2207972.html

    India govt security committee approves Thales, DCN submarine order - report
    09.06.2005, 12:25 PM
    Took a while but it seems to have reached a positive conclusion at last

    regards,
    uss.

  • #2
    Hmmm, I await a official statement.

    Comment


    • #3
      Its a DONE DEAL!
      Now to wait for a decent maritime patrol asset for the IN.
      We need it quick!

      Comment


      • #4
        The IN is surely modernizing, Gorgy will be comming soon, new subs, another carrier, MiG-29Ks, harrier upgrade to carry BVR standard, Bangalore class etc etc etc and of course the Brahmos.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm happy all six submarines are being built in India.
          Earlier, word was that two could be built in France and the rest in India.

          Comment


          • #6
            http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/....php#orison_mc

            India to Sign Multi-billion Dollar Scorpene Sub Contract (Updated)
            Posted 16-Sep-2005 00:50

            Indian Prime Minister Manoham Singh, also chairman of India's Cabinet Committee on Security, has confirmed the decision to acquire 6 Franco-Spanish Scorpene diesel submarines, with an option for 6 more. This is one of the biggest military deals India has entered into with France, and comes with extensive technology transfer agreements.

            The Scorpene deal has been simmering on the back-burner for several years now; DID reported that a deal was "close" back in December 2004. The cost is yet to be officially disclosed, and has been subject to varying estimates over the life of the multi-year negotiations. Still, DID can offer some information about...

            The Deal: Perforrmance, Plans & Cost

            The Scorpene project will kick off The Indian Navy's long-term goal of acquiring indigenous capability in design, development and construction of submarines. The submarines will all be built in India, and expected delivery dates for the first six are set at 2009-2015.

            As noted at the outset, however, this deal has options for another six submarines. The Times of India adds that the long-term plan is to manufacture up to 24 submarines in a phased manner.

            DID would remind our readers that long term plans for major capital acquisitions have a way of shrinking over time as budgetary tradeoffs are made - 32 DD (X) destroyers for the USA became 12, and may become 8. Nevertheless, options and/or future schedule delays could easily keep submarine production for India going to 2020 or beyond.

            With respect to costs, figures vary.

            Rediff.com notes that Globalsecurity.org has placed the cost of the Scorpene deal at approximately USD $4.6 billion. (In 2002, it was estimated at $3.2 billion, but the prolonged negotiations kept pushing the price up). December 2004 estimates were $2.5 billion, with other conflicting estimates based around the French readiness to bear some of the brunt of inflation.

            A recent Times of India article estimated the deal at EUR 2.4 billion euros (about Rs 13,000 crore, or USD $2.95 billion), a figure rounded to $3 billion and recently echoed by Rediff.com in other articles. Clarity may have to await the formal contract, but $3 billion seems like a reasonable consensus figure at the moment.

            The Deal: Contractors & Roles

            The acquisition of the Scorpenes will enable India to reopen its submarine building assembly lines. All six boats will be built entirely in India by Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Ltd., whose submarine lines have been idle for the past four years after completing the manufacture under technology transfer of four German HDW Type 209 conventional submarines.

            The French firm DCN will be the overall industrial prime contractor for this program, in partnership with Spanish naval shipbuilder Navantia. DCN will also be in charge of the technology transfer and delivery of all services and equipment. The DCN/Thales joint ventures Armaris and its subsidiary UDS International will supply the combat systems.

            Thales has revealed that India's Scorpene contract is worth nearly EUR 600 million (USD $736 million) to their company. As well as assuming prime contracting responsibilities through Armaris and providing assistance to the Indian shipbuilder Mazagon Dock Limited, Thales will supply key subsystems for the submarines' six UDS International SUBTICS integrated combat systems, including underwater sensors, communications and optronics, and electronic warfare equipment.

            The Scorpene Class

            The SSK Scorpene non-nuclear submarine class has been jointly developed by DCN of France and Navantia of Spain, and incorporates advancements that stem from being developed about 10 years later than DCN's Agosta 90 Class - which is currently being built in Pakistan with DCN's assistance. Many of the Scorpene's internal systems and weapons, however, are shared with the Improved Agosta 90B.

            Displacing 1,700 metric tonnes, the standard CM-2000 Scorpene Class is 219 feet long with a submerged speed of over 20 knots, and submerged range at 100% battery usage and a speed of four knots of 134 hours/536 miles. This new submarine class incorporates a high level of system redundancy to achieve an average 240 days at sea per year per submarine, and the endurance to undertake a 50 day patrol before being resupplied. In addition, its maximum diving depth is 300m (about 1,000 feet), giving the commander good tactical freedom for a conventional submarine.

            Scorpene subs can hold a total company of 31 men with a standard watch team of nine. The control room and the living quarters are mounted on an elastically supported and acoustically isolated floating platform, really a ship within the ship.

            Like many modern diesel-electric submarines, the Scorpene class is exceptionally quiet. It can also be equipped with an additional MESMA brand AIP (air-independent propulsion). This allows the sub to remain submerged 3 times longer than normal without having to come up for air, but lengthens it by 9m/30 ft. in order to provide space for the additional propulsion system. These subs are designated AM-2000 Scorpene.

            Public sources claim that India considers the MESMA AIP to be less than fully proven, and all indicators point to the conclusion that India has bought the CM-2000 model.

            The Scorpene's SUBTICS combat management system, with up to six multifunction common consoles and a centrally situated tactical table, is co-located with the platform-control facilities. The vessel's sonar suite includes a long-range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, a high-resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance and a towed array. Each Scorpene submarine features six 533mm bow located torpedo tubes with 18 weapons between torpedoes, mines (up to 30) and missiles. The Scorpene's torpedo tubes are compatible with F17, BlackShark and Mk48 torpedoes, and Exocet anti-ship missiles. As part of this deal, India's submarines will be armed with the EADS SM-39 Exocet.

            In addition to these regular weapons, the platform also offers advanced capabilities for mine warfare, intelligence gathering and special operations.

            This brings the number of committed Scorpene submarine sales on the international market to ten: India 6, Chile 2, Malaysia 2. The first-of-type O'Higgins Class (CM-2000 Scorpene) was handed over to the Chilean Navy on 9 September 2005 at a ceremony attended by Chilean Defence Minister Jaime Ravinet. The second Chilean sub is due for delivery in 2007, and the Malaysian Scorpenes will be delivered in 2007 and 2008.

            Meanwhile, the Spanish government ordered four S-80 AM-2000 Scorpene AIP submarines in 2003. The S-80 program had a value of EUR 1.75 billion, with Navantia's predecessor Izar tasked for the order.

            India's Current Submarine Force, and Rival Navies

            The submariner blog Ultraquiet No More points out, India currently operates 14 submarines. Based on additional research, DID has revised that total to 16 submarines, of which 13 are currently operational:

            4 German Type 209 SSK submarines, known in India as the Shishumar Class. They were delivered between 1984 - 1994; S44 Shishumar has been refitted, and one submarine (probably S47 Shankul) is currently undergoing a refit. The vessels are expected to reach their end of service life between 2016-2024.
            The United News of India (UNI) reported on September 6, 2004 that Siemens of Germany has offered the Indian Navy an upgrade for the Shishumar Class submarines, which will involve the installation of their Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system. India is said to be cautious about the technology, and especially the dangers of storing hydrogen on shore.

            10 Russian Kilo Class/ Project 877 SSKs, known in India as Sindhu Class and built (1986-1991, 1997, 2000) under a contract between Rosvooruzhenie and the Indian Defense Ministry. They are considered to be one of the world's quietest submarines, but there are reports that the Indian Navy considers them underpowered. Five of these subs have received mid-life refits, and one (S62 Sindhuvijay) is currently in refit. Based on the timing of mid-life refits, it seems likely that India's Kilos will begin reaching the end of their service lives around 2013; but the spacing of their delivery ensures that they will remain in service for many years to come.
            Bharat-Rakshak adds that 2 Foxtrot class subs delivered in the mid-1970s are still technically in service. S40 Vela is said to be undergoing a refit of some kind, which may or may not ever be completed. S42 Vagli is based in Mumbai.
            India's two most proinent competitors are Pakistan and China.

            Pakistan currently owns 8 submarines. They acquired 4 Daphne and 2 Agosta class submarines from French Navy during the 1970s, and modified the submarines to fire Harpoon missiles in 1985. Two updated Agosta 90Bs are also in service, and were commissioned in 1999 and 2003 respectively. The third submarine will add a MESMA AIP, and the other two Agosta 90Bs may be refitted for the propulasion system later. The age of the Daphnes and Agosta will make maintaining their current force level a challenge.

            China currently owns 74 submarines; 33 of them are Type 033s, a Chinese copy of the 1960s-era Romeo class (which in turn was based on 1944 U-Boat designs). None of those are expected to remain in service past 2010, but projections indicate that by the time India's Scorpenes begin to enter service, the Chinese will probably have 58-61 submarines. If one leaves out the problem-plagued Type 091 Han Class SSNs and old, updated-Romeo Type 035 Ming Class SSKs entirely, China's attack sub force is still projected at about 30 subs by 2010, including 4 Type 093 Shang Class SSNs and 8 Kilo & Advanced Kilo Class SSKs (Project 877 and Project 636).

            A Final, Nuclear Note:

            The Times of India also reports that spin-offs from the Scorpene project will help India in its ATV (advanced technology vessel) program to build nuclear-powered submarines, which is still 5-6 years away from fruition at least. According to GlobalSecurity.org, the ATV program began in 1974 and became a serious effort in 1985.
            Hala Madrid!!

            Comment


            • #7
              http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...&modele=jdc_34

              Exocet Missiles, AIP Swing India Submarine Order


              (Source: defense-aerospace.com; published Sept. 13, 2005)




              PARIS --- France’s willingness to sell SM-39 Exocet submarine-launched anti-ship missiles, as well as the boats’ air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, are the two main reasons India opted for the French-Spanish Scorpene submarines rather than the competing Type 214 boats offered by Germany.

              AIP allows conventional submarines to remain submerged for long periods without having to surface to recharge their batteries. Scorpene boats can remain submerged for as long as 50 days, at depths of up to 300 meters, sources say.

              While the German Type 214 class also offers air-independent propulsion, albeit of a different technology, its weapon fit consists primarily of torpedoes and does not include an anti-ship missile. Scorpene’s combination of AIP and sub-surface launched missile will give Indian submarines the capability to attack surface ships and shore targets from ranges of more than 50 km. while remaining submerged, and thus relatively immune from detection.

              Despite this competitive advantage, Indian press reports say that France had to agree to a substantial discount to clinch the sale of the six submarines, as the competing German offer was “considerably less expensive,” according to a German industry official.

              Considerable confusion surrounds the deal’s value, which has been variously been pegged at between 1.5 billion US dollars and 2.4 billion euros ($3.2 billion). The actual role of various French companies involved in the deal also is unclear.

              In fact, the contract might be worth substantially more. India has a long-term plan, originally designated Project 75, to build up to 24 non-nuclear attack submarines over a period of 30 years. Although its present status is unclear, it is likely that if construction of the first six Scorpenes is successful India might decide to build additional boats.

              French naval contractors, in the run-up to industry’s restructuring, are scrambling to claim the greatest credit for the deal. France’s state-owned Direction des Constructions Navales (DCN), for example, said that it is “the industrial prime contractor” and that it “will be in charge of the technology transfer and delivery of all services and equipment,” adding that Armaris and UDS International, a joint DCN/Thales subsidiary, will supply the boats’ SUBTICS combat systems.

              However, an Armaris official said the company is in fact the designated prime contractor, and will sign the main contract with India’s Mazagon Dockyards Limited, which will build the submarines under license in Mumbai. Final signature of the contract is expected in a “matter of days,” he said, adding that deal will be worth about 2 billion euros, including weapons fit and license fee, of which Armaris will receive 1 billion to 1.5 billion euros. “However, there is still a negotiating margin, and no final figure has yet been agreed to,” he said Sept. 13.

              Thales, which is providing the submarines’ electronics, values its share of the deal at 600 million euros. MBDA France will provide 40 SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, while Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei, a unit of Italy’s Finmeccanica, will supply Black Shark heavyweight wire-guided torpedoes.

              In addition to the supply of submarine components, the deal also includes transfer of the related technology to Mazagon Docks. A substantial share of the revenue from the contract will go the Spain’s Navantia shipyards, formerly IZAR, which owns a 50-percent share of the Scorpene design along with DCN.

              Construction of the six Scorpene boats will allow India to revive its Mazagon Docks shipyards, which have been idle for several years after having completed construction of the Indian Navy’s previous submarines, the German-designed Type 209, in 2001. The Scorpene submarines are to be delivered to the Indian Navy between 2010 and 2015.

              India will be free to market the submarines to third countries, sources say, but this has not been confirmed by France. Taiwan is one potential export customer. Washington has promised to provide Taiwan with at least six submarines, but this plan is stymied because US shipyards are not capable of building conventionally-powered subs. Dutch and German shipyards, which are, cannot sell to Taiwan, directly or indirectly, because of their governments’ restrictions on arms exports.

              With the recent warming of diplomatic and defense relations between New Delhi and Washington, a trilateral arrangement in which the United States paid India to supply Scorpene subs to Taiwan appears an attractive solution.

              Current plans call for Indian Navy Scorpenes to be based at Karwar, south of Mumbai on the Arabian seaboard, where the Indian Navy is building a large new base with new, secure submarine pens.

              The 1,500 metric tonne Scorpene submarines have an operational cycle of 240 days a year, and a patrol endurance of up to 50 days. In peacetime, they will be used for surveillance and intelligence-gathering on both of India’s coasts, and they are also capable of a wide range of mission such as mine warfare and special operations.

              The Indian Navy currently operates 10 Russian Kilo-class submarines and four German HDW Type 209 boats as well as two older Foxtrot-class boats also supplied by Russia.
              Hala Madrid!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Next best thing for these subs would be inducting brahmos, which will be deadly combo. But can scorpene be modify to launch with scorps & other submarines with IN?
                Hala Madrid!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  India will be free to market the submarines to third countries, sources say, but this has not been confirmed by France. Taiwan is one potential export customer. Washington has promised to provide Taiwan with at least six submarines, but this plan is stymied because US shipyards are not capable of building conventionally-powered subs. Dutch and German shipyards, which are, cannot sell to Taiwan, directly or indirectly, because of their governments’ restrictions on arms exports.
                  Guys what do make of this (second article). Should India mfg & sell these scorpenes to Taiwan & show the middle finger to chinese for selling nuclear & conventional stuffs to pureland. This is very encouraging :).
                  Hala Madrid!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by indianguy4u
                    Guys what do make of this (second article). Should India mfg & sell these scorpenes to Taiwan & show the middle finger to chinese for selling nuclear & conventional stuffs to pureland. This is very encouraging :).
                    No, you will be fighting against the US Arms lobby then, which is not good ;)
                    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jay
                      No, you will be fighting against the US Arms lobby then, which is not good ;)
                      Acc to article
                      US shipyards are not capable of building conventionally-powered subs.
                      So dont think there is anything to worry. The deal would be between India, France & Taiwan.
                      Hala Madrid!!

                      Comment

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