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View Full Version : Goalkeeper vs. Phalanx



SloMax
20 Aug 05,, 20:42
Which CIWS is the best in use today? For gun systems my choice is Goalkeeper. Mk 31 RAM isn't bad either...

Franco Lolan
22 Aug 05,, 04:31
Same. Phalanx record isn't very encouraging, and many of the tests seem in unrealistic environments.

Bill
22 Aug 05,, 07:32
What record is that?

Phalanx so far as i know has never attempted a live intercept before, i don't think any CIWS system has.

sparten
22 Aug 05,, 11:22
The concept of a CIWS became well known during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 when an Indian anti-ship missile penetrated the tanker PNS Dacca's outer defences. Despite this, Leading Seaman Muhammed Hanif, manning his anti-aircraft gun, kept firing at the incoming missile till the last. Though he destroyed the missile and managed to save the ship, he was himself killed by the explosion. Muhammad Hanif left a legacy that gave birth to a new concept in naval warfare, the Close-in Weapon System, for defence against low flying anti-ship missiles.

Wikipedia.

That might be the only case of a CIWS like situation.

Dreadnought
22 Aug 05,, 13:20
I would say Phalanx but with the new missles etc out there probably Goalkeeper.

JBodnar39
27 Aug 05,, 17:48
The concept of a CIWS became well known during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 when an Indian anti-ship missile penetrated the tanker PNS Dacca's outer defences. Despite this, Leading Seaman Muhammed Hanif, manning his anti-aircraft gun, kept firing at the incoming missile till the last. Though he destroyed the missile and managed to save the ship, he was himself killed by the explosion. Muhammad Hanif left a legacy that gave birth to a new concept in naval warfare, the Close-in Weapon System, for defence against low flying anti-ship missiles.

Wikipedia.

That might be the only case of a CIWS like situation.

Very interesting. If you have any threads that discuss India-**** naval battles I would love to see them - i have very little info on that

SloMax
10 Sep 05,, 16:23
I have a new contender for the title - 3K87 KORTIK/KASHTAN (-M) or CADS-1(NATO classification). Is it as effective as it looks?

Bill
10 Sep 05,, 16:31
Who knows?

It could be great, or it could be like most other russian equipment we end up getting our hands on...

Cheaply built with inferior electronics and radar.

SloMax
12 Sep 05,, 09:17
Basic info on KORTIK/KASHTAN-M:

Possibility of use: all weather
Reaction time: 3-7 sec.
Sensors: radar / electro-optical
Radar: MR-352 POZITIV-M
Weight: 7.5 tons
Gun type: GSh-6-30K (2) 30mm
Rate of fire: 10000 / min.
Magazine: 1000 rounds
Gun range: 0.3-5 km
Gun range-height: 3 km
Missile type: 9M-311-1E (SA-N-11)
Missile Length: 2.562 m
Missile Diameter: 76/152 mm
Missile Weight: 43 kg
Warhead: 9 kg
Max. Speed: 900 m/sec.
Missile Range: 1.5-10 km
Missile Range-height: 6 km
Missiles carried: 8
Missiles stored: 32

And some more pictures:

Simullacrum
16 Sep 05,, 13:56
would say goalkeeper for now...

Il bet my money on new PAMMS system when it enter service in Europe.!

Any thoughts..??

Garry
16 Sep 05,, 15:26
was interested to read this thread, I haven't read much about this area. What looked strikking is why the range of Kortic is so much longer? Slomax reported around 4km while Phalanx and Goalkeeper have around 1.5-1.8km.

Searching on this topic I found very interesting thing that is new to me - a guided shell designed by italians. This makes a 76mm round shot from normal artillery gun meneuvrinable and guided by radar against missiles and aircraft..... sounds really impresive!!!

http://www.otomelara.it/products/schedule.asp?id=prod_naval_development_davide_ge
http://www.analisidifesa.it/articolo.shtm/id/4185/ver/EN
http://www.otomelara.it/news/news.asp?id=15

This technology can make a artillery guns serve as a powerful CIWS..... Indeed engaging a fast moving missile at a range beyond 2km is a tough task for unguided shells... this thing can engage missiles few km away and bring a large load of explosive!

Is this something new or it is conventional for other Navies?

aaraza98
22 Jun 09,, 11:01
This is embarrasing as I should know more about the discussion. My father was the Commanding Officer of PNS Dacca when it got hit.

jlvfr
22 Jun 09,, 15:59
Is this something new or it is conventional for other Navies?

The italians have allways been big fans of the 3"/76mm gun. Back in the 70's/80's, their ships would be covered in them. Gave them a WWII look :)


The 76 won't have the ROF of the lighter 20-30mm guns, but it's range, combined with the size of the sheel, pretty much ensures not only a kill but allso a kill far enough to prevent a shower of high speed fragments shotgunning the ship. Combine that with modern fire control systems...

One imediate advantage I see: the 76 is a multi-purpose gun. CIWS systems are basically 1-threat weapons. But that 76 can engage anything from a plane to a pirate boat :)

Dreadnought
22 Jun 09,, 16:04
What record is that?

Phalanx so far as i know has never attempted a live intercept before, i don't think any CIWS system has.

Under tests in the 1980's it conducted itself well under life fire exercises.;)

Look closely at the Iowa class BB Phalanx systems and then look closely at the radar domes above them you will notice a series of broken missle silloettes. These are from tests conducted aboard to ensure they operatre correctly. Wether it is Domestic or Foreign missles used makes no difference on how they will react once detected.

Blue
22 Jun 09,, 16:51
This is embarrasing as I should know more about the discussion. My father was the Commanding Officer of PNS Dacca when it got hit. Kudos to your father for serving, but this thread is almost FOUR YEARS OLD!! DON'T YOU KNOW NECROPOSTING KILLS KITTENS!!!:eek::eek:

jlvfr
22 Jun 09,, 16:55
Kudos to your father for serving, but this thread is almost FOUR YEARS OLD!! DON'T YOU KNOW NECROPOSTING KILLS KITTENS!!!:eek::eek:

oOOo crud.. and I fell for it... never saw the date :redface::(:(

Gun Grape
22 Jun 09,, 17:28
Do you people never learn? Or do you just like to see innocent furry animals killed?

Officer of Engineers
22 Jun 09,, 17:58
Cajun Kitten

~ kittens,cut into serving pieces, amount depends upon how many you can eat
~ olive oil
~ 1 large onion
~ 1 large green bell pepper
~ 2 cloves garlic
~ Cajun spice (Tony Chachere's recommended)
~ 2 tbsp Tabasco sauce
~ 4 tbsp ketchup
~ 1 tbsp Gumbo File seasoning
~ cooked rice

In a deep pot or dutch oven, heat some olive oil.

Season the kitten on all sides with the Cajun seasoning. Add to the hot oil and turn to brown on all sides. Continue to cook until done.

Place the onion, bell pepper and garlic in a blender. Cover with water and chop. Add to the pot when squirrel is done.

Sprinkle the added vegetables with Cajun seasoning.

Add the Tabasco sauce, ketchup and the Gumbo File. Stir to mix well.

Serve over the cooked rice.

Enjoy.

Dreadnought
22 Jun 09,, 18:05
Cajun Kitten

~ kittens,cut into serving pieces, amount depends upon how many you can eat
~ olive oil
~ 1 large onion
~ 1 large green bell pepper
~ 2 cloves garlic
~ Cajun spice (Tony Chachere's recommended)
~ 2 tbsp Tabasco sauce
~ 4 tbsp ketchup
~ 1 tbsp Gumbo File seasoning
~ cooked rice

In a deep pot or dutch oven, heat some olive oil.

Season the squirrel on all sides with the Cajun seasoning. Add to the hot oil and turn to brown on all sides. Continue to cook until done.

Place the onion, bell pepper and garlic in a blender. Cover with water and chop. Add to the pot when squirrel is done.

Sprinkle the added vegetables with Cajun seasoning.

Add the Tabasco sauce, ketchup and the Gumbo File. Stir to mix well.

Serve over the cooked rice.

Enjoy.

:)):)):))

Blue
23 Jun 09,, 00:35
Cajun Kitten

~ kittens,cut into serving pieces, amount depends upon how many you can eat
~ olive oil
~ 1 large onion
~ 1 large green bell pepper
~ 2 cloves garlic
~ Cajun spice (Tony Chachere's recommended)
~ 2 tbsp Tabasco sauce
~ 4 tbsp ketchup
~ 1 tbsp Gumbo File seasoning
~ cooked rice

In a deep pot or dutch oven, heat some olive oil.

Season the kitten on all sides with the Cajun seasoning. Add to the hot oil and turn to brown on all sides. Continue to cook until done.

Place the onion, bell pepper and garlic in a blender. Cover with water and chop. Add to the pot when squirrel is done. You missed one Col!

Do you have any idea how many kittens it would take to fill that recipe!? Cats, btwn 8mos and a year and a half are the best. Still tender, but lots more meat!;)

avon1944
31 Jul 09,, 06:33
It is difficult to say since so many test have been made and information on each system seems to 'leak' out. There was video shown only ONCE, on TV where the Phalanx engaged the Vandal Target Missile. The Vandal approach at Mach 2+ and 10-ft. off the ocean and the Phalanx destroyed the missile, the missile broke up but, chunks of the missile flew into the target ship. It was not possible to see the Vandal until it was around a quarter mile from the target ship. The Vandal is a little over 1-ft. in diameter and about 15-ft. long, so it is far smaller than Russian Mach 2.0+ anti-ship missile.
The one thing the Phalanx has going for it is the closed loop system where an incoming missile is detected, the gun fires and the out-going shells are tracked to the target. If there is a miss than a correction factor is fed back into the aiming calculations. In many test the Phalanx shells hit around a mile away but, being sabot rounds they simply pass through the target missile. An explosive shell I feel would work better, to replace the 20-mm cannon with the 30-mm GAU-8 (from the A-10)... IMHO.
Back in the 1973 Yom Kippur War at sea, some of the Israeli Navy's corvettes were equipped with an Oto Melara 76-mm guns which shot down Styx Missiles at distances up to 10km (6-mi)! That was a surprise to all involved.
I have heard no data on how well the Russian AK-630 or Kashtan with its missile gun systems work.
It is difficult to tell what works and what doesn't because so much national pride is on the line.

B.Smitty
31 Jul 09,, 14:34
What record is that?

Phalanx so far as i know has never attempted a live intercept before, i don't think any CIWS system has.

USS Jarrett's Phalanx attempted an intercept of a Silkworm during ODS. As the story goes, it shot at a chaff cloud and some rounds struck the USS Missouri.

StevoJH
31 Jul 09,, 19:39
USS Jarrett's Phalanx attempted an intercept of a Silkworm during ODS. As the story goes, it shot at a chaff cloud and some rounds struck the USS Missouri.

Didn't HMS Gloucester end up destroying that missile? First confirmed missile interception by an AAW missile in combat. :)

avon1944
01 Aug 09,, 04:36
USS Jarrett's Phalanx attempted an intercept of a Silkworm during ODS. As the story goes, it shot at a chaff cloud and some rounds struck the USS Missouri.
A couple sabot rounds hit the battleship but, there was no casualties and no damage other than chipped paint! It was something to do with a programming error that caused the Phalanx to go off when it detected the chaff cloud.


Didn't HMS Gloucester end up destroying that missile? First confirmed missile interception by an AAW missile in combat.
Yes a Sea Dart Missile was used.

Master Chief
17 Aug 09,, 01:11
I would rather the RAM system first. Also a close second would use the russian kashtan system. 2-30mm guns backed up by 8 missiles, what a combo.