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PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 04:27
Which type of personal carrier should be used in armed forces?

Wheeled? Tracked?

Should their even be personel carriers?

Which is the best of all??

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 06:32
TRACKED(in my experience and opinion).

I would rate the British Warrior as the best....it has Chobham armor.

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 07:12
Are not the tracked vehicles harder to transport?

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 07:18
No, not really. It depends though....if you are adding a major caliber gun turret to the vehicle, none of them are really air transportable by anything less than a C-17 or C-5 anyway.

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 07:21
I see....so...you really need big boats to transport these weapons?

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 07:24
Or C-17/C-5's.

One of the best kept secrets of the last Gulf War is that a Squadron of M-1 Abrams and M-2 Bradleys were airlifted deep into Northern Iraq into an airfield captured by the 173d Airborne Bde using C-17's.

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 07:26
but they were dropped at low levels.

the best at paratrooping were the soviets

they could have airlfted a 100,000 man armoured brigade

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 07:38
The M-1/M-2s landed in the airfield after it was siezed by the 173d Airborne.

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 07:44
Was it a HALO?

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 07:49
High Altitude Low Opening parachute jump.

Jump out of the plane at 30,000 feet, and don't open the chute untill 1500.

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 07:50
Im talking about the tanks!

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 07:53
Never heard of HALO in reference to tanks.

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 07:53
Then you do not know commies :)

lol they're soldiers might die before they get to the battlefield LMAO!

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 07:57
Nope, don't know any live commies...

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 08:07
LOL go to NYC or BOSTON

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 08:13
Nah, they're just socailists.

No shortage of them....unfortunately. :cry

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 08:20
socialists are better.

lol i am not a communist.

because of several reasons...but i believe the system will work.

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 08:39
The next time it does will be the first time.

Socailists are certainly better than communists, but i don't like either.

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 09:17
lol you never met any!

Bill
19 Oct 03,, 17:39
I never said that. I said i didn't know any LIVE communists.

Attention to detail Lad. ;)

PiggyWiggy
19 Oct 03,, 18:26
what does that mean?

ChrisF202
19 Oct 03,, 19:02
it means he grabbed his M21 and sniped them off :)

bigross86
19 Oct 03,, 22:00
Not so much grabbed as aimed.

Bill
20 Oct 03,, 02:00
Truth be told, in the incident in question, a radio and a battery of 155mm guns was the culprit.

Officer of Engineers
20 Oct 03,, 02:43
Originally posted by PiggyWiggy
but they were dropped at low levels.

the best at paratrooping were the soviets

they could have airlfted a 100,000 man armoured brigade

This tells me that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Bill
20 Oct 03,, 08:32
LOL, i think he's a kid Sir.

If i had to guess, i'd say he's about 14.... ;)

Stinger
20 Oct 03,, 12:41
Originally posted by PiggyWiggy
but they were dropped at low levels.

the best at paratrooping were the soviets

they could have airlfted a 100,000 man armoured brigade Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
This tells me that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I wonder how big the Division they were attached to was... let alone the Army :D

Ironduke
20 Oct 03,, 13:00
Originally posted by PiggyWiggy
but they were dropped at low levels.

the best at paratrooping were the soviets

they could have airlfted a 100,000 man armoured brigade
Heh, no offense PiggyWiggy, but a brigade (at least in the US) numbers about 3,000-5,000 men, and there are about 3 brigades in a division.

100,000 men would constitute an army or two, not like the whole US army, but an actual designtion commanded by a lieutenant general and consists of two or more corps (a corp consists of two to five divisions).

No army in the world has the ability to airlift an armored force of that size.

Bill
20 Oct 03,, 17:44
Actually, 100,000 men is more along the lines of a Corps.

VII corps in ODS was about 120,000 strong, IIRC.

Officer of Engineers
20 Oct 03,, 19:13
The Red/Russian Army/PLA works with the regt-div-army model. We work with the bde-div-corps model. For an intents and purposes, British/Australian/Canadian regts are battalions.

The Soviets regarded their paratroopers as nothing more than light infantry. Their Air Assualt units are considered the more effective branch. Air Assualt, however, is fixed wing insert, not paradrop.

PiggyWiggy
22 Oct 03,, 06:40
lol alright alright i exagerated a bit.

but it was big...very big...

Praxus
22 Oct 03,, 13:22
And your a big anti-semite.

s_qwert63
22 Oct 03,, 13:35
The best APC's are probably the BMP3 and the German Marder.
The BMP 3 has a wide array of armaments, a 100mm main gun, a 30mm automatic cannon, ATGW's and 2 machine guns.
The Marder however is very well protected, but weighs in at 40 tonnes, it cannot swim, not can it be airlifted effectively.

s_qwert63
22 Oct 03,, 13:40
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers

The Soviets regarded their paratroopers as nothing more than light infantry. Their Air Assualt units are considered the more effective branch. Air Assualt, however, is fixed wing insert, not paradrop.

you are quite incorrect there...
the Soviet VDV was considered as light infantry, but they were elite units, and with the introduction of the BMD their role became more essential.
The Soviet Army had 7 Airborne divisions, while the US only has 2 activated ones and I believe the Brits also have one.
The VDV would play an essential role if WW3 would break out.

The emphasis that is placed upon the the VDV is clear when you consider that almost 50% of the Spetsnaz units belonged to the airforce and have been chosen from the VDV.

Officer of Engineers
22 Oct 03,, 17:47
VDV is Air Assualt, not paratroop.

Bill
22 Oct 03,, 18:13
"you are quite incorrect there..."

LOL, you're talking to a NATO member field grade officer kid.

Stop embarassing yourself.

s_qwert63
22 Oct 03,, 20:53
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
VDV is Air Assualt, not paratroop.

the VDV = Vozdushno Dessantnye Voiska
Vozdushno - Air, Dessantnye - Paratroop, Voiska - Forces

they are paratroopers, believe me on this one because i am planning to join the 76VDD when i finish university (if i finish it) instead of getting conscripted.
there are branches of the VDV who are called the Aeromobil'nye Voiska - Air Mobile forces, but the bulk of the VDV are paratroopers.


LOL, you're talking to a NATO member field grade officer kid.

Stop embarassing yourself.

what professionals don't make mistakes?
look at the CIA and the WMD in Iraq for example, uncle.

Bill
22 Oct 03,, 20:55
I'll leave this to the Colonel.

He seems to enjoy the occasional thrashing. ;)

s_qwert63
22 Oct 03,, 21:00
Originally posted by M21Sniper
I'll leave this to the Colonel.

He seems to enjoy the occasional thrashing. ;)

well let him confront me, the VDV are paratroopers that jump out of planes.

Bill
22 Oct 03,, 21:02
The 101st Airborne are paratroopers that ride in helos.

The US 1st Cavalry are cavalrymen that drive in tanks and PC's.

Titles can be misleading squirt.

s_qwert63
22 Oct 03,, 21:09
well the VDV certainly jump out of An 12's and Il 76's :)

Officer of Engineers
22 Oct 03,, 21:29
*** sigh ***

What's the role? I got my jump wings but I'm still an engr. You're getting alot of things confused.

The VDV WAS (PAST TENSE) a paratroop unit. Once you add in armour and artillery, that role AUTOMATICALLY changed to Air Assault. Paratroops were never meant either in the West nor in the USSR to stand up to mech troops. That changed with the ability to air insert armour and light guns which essentially change the VDV into a light motor force.

The role of your jumpers change from foot inf tasked infiltration, point seizure, to drop/landing zone seizure and security in order for the armour and artillery to assemble.

Understand the difference?

protonriver
11 Nov 03,, 21:59
Cold someone please explain to me what a personal carrier is? I'm not very familiar with the military although I'm learning :)

s_qwert63
11 Nov 03,, 22:26
APC = Armoured Personnel Carrier

A vehicle that is lightly armoured, posesses armament and can carry from 3 - 10 troops to battle.

http://www.hellas.org/military/army/images/bmp-1.jpg

BMP 1

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/m-113/m113.jpg

M113

protonriver
11 Nov 03,, 22:45
s_qwert63, thanks a lot mate!

I think there was a difference in the words used. I'm used to the word tank instead of APC. But nevertheless, I learnt something new!

Thanks again

s_qwert63
11 Nov 03,, 22:46
No problem :D

Bill
12 Nov 03,, 00:25
A tank is something altogether different.

bigross86
12 Nov 03,, 17:09
A tank (MBT/Main Battle Tank), like the M-1 Abrams has much more armor than an APC, less crew (3-4) and a bigger gun. Aside from the Merkava Mk IV, tanks don't carry infantry.

Infantry is acrried by IFV's/Infantry Fighting Vehicles such as the M-2/M-3 Bradley. This carries more armor than an APC, approx. the same amount of crew, and a large calibur gun, but not as large as a tank (25mm on the Bradley).

Ironduke
25 Nov 03,, 06:22
Russian T-34s carried infantry.

The welded rails to the sides, half a dozen men could ride along on each side. :D

Smoke286
27 Feb 04,, 02:15
Originally posted by M21Sniper
TRACKED(in my experience and opinion).

I would rate the British Warrior as the best....it has Chobham armor.

M-21 wouldn't a mix be best? The Canadian Army has wheeled APC's now a mix of auto cannons and 76mm for close support, but what if they were to add Warriors or Bradleys into the mix. Wouldn't that mixture give them a better all round mission capability?

as I understand the biggest problem with tracked APC's is they are not as easy to air transport, but crew survivability in a vehicle like a Warrior would certainly be much higher then that of a grizzly.

Smoke286
27 Feb 04,, 02:17
What do you guys think of Israel's heavy APC's that were made from obselete tanks, up armoured and turned into Apc's ?

Officer of Engineers
27 Feb 04,, 05:42
Same thing as with our upgraded Leo C2s, very limited lifetime.

Dragoon
11 Aug 04,, 18:25
what professionals don't make mistakes?
look at the CIA and the WMD in Iraq for example, uncle.


Give me Fourteen months, an area the size of california, enough motivation and a shovel and I could hide The empire state building.

Ask The Kurds about WMDs, ask The Shiite, Ask The Entire Iranian army. hats why the police yell search warrant after they Break down the door, so there is no time to dispose of the evidence.
If you believe that No WMD crap you might want look at some great real estte in Brooklyn I have for sale
No one likes to talk about what happened to the stuff Saddam Manufactured stockpiled and threatened the locals with. Where did thousands of litres of nerve agent and antrax just disappear to.
why the hell did he bury mobile labs in the sand if they were not for illegal weapons. Funny no one remebers a squadron of illegal Russian Migs, and French avionics, purchased after the desert storm ,Buried without notice for months under a the feet of US troops.

Bill
11 Aug 04,, 21:13
"M-21 wouldn't a mix be best?"

Without a doubt, but the budget doesn't always allow for such luxuries.