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Has the F117 out lived its usefulness?

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  • Has the F117 out lived its usefulness?

    I understand the need to retain the B2's for the large payload/nuclear option, but given the airforce has the F22 and tomahawk cruise missiles plus the fact they will soon have combat UAV's capable of bombing missions is there really any requirement to retain the F117's now?

    I assume the F22's are not quite as stealthy but are capable of both air to air and air to ground (rumor has it the can deploy GPS guided bombs while supercruising too). And the rapid approach of combat UAV's being designed with stealth in mind which are capable of bombing high risk ground targets seems to make the F117 obsolete.

    Any thoughts to this and does anyone have serious arguments to retaining the F117's rather then replacing them?

  • #2
    Isn't the F/A-22 stealthier?

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    • #3
      The Joint Strike Fighter will likely assume the role currently played by the F-117 (i.e. air defense suppresion, attacking heavily defended targets). Lockeed has also proposed building a F-22B, which would be a medium bomber based on the Raptor airframe but larger/bigger payload etc.

      The F-117 has one advantage over the aforementioned: it has performed well in three major air campaigns (ODS, Kosovo, OIE). In other words, it is battle tested.

      In my opinion, the F-117's only drawback is its relativley small payload (2 2000lb JDAMs).

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Franco Lolan
        Isn't the F/A-22 stealthier?

        I do believe so.
        "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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        • #5
          F/A22 is stealthier and has a bigger payload plus is a whole lot faster

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Terran empire
            F/A22 is stealthier and has a bigger payload plus is a whole lot faster
            I believe the F-22 has a smaller air to ground payload versus the F-117.

            F-22 - 2 1000lb JDAMS
            F-1117 - 2 2000lb JDAMS

            But it also carrying plenty of air to air weapons. Perhaps it can be configured to carry less air to air and more air to ground?

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            • #7
              "Originally Posted by Franco Lolan
              Isn't the F/A-22 stealthier?"



              Lieberstande: "I do believe so."

              The F-22 is the stealthiest manned aircraft ever fielded.

              The F-22 can embark a max of 8 SDBs(but would normally embark six wit two AIM-9X i think), or 2 2000lb JDAM w/ 2 AIM-9X, or six AMRAAM and two AIM-9X----those are internal loads.

              The F-22s four external 'stealthy' hardpoints can carry many thousands of pounds of external ordnance, including up to 8 additional AMRAAMs besides the six in the internal bay.
              Last edited by Bill; 14 Aug 05,, 04:28.

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              • #8
                The f22 can carry 2 2000lb JDAMs, 2 AMRAAMs and 2 Aim9x or 6 250lb SDBs with two 9x or 8 SDBs. So it equates to about the same A2G payload capacity as the f117.

                What are the payloads and capacity of the F-35?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Radial Arm
                  The Joint Strike Fighter will likely assume the role currently played by the F-117 (i.e. air defense suppresion, attacking heavily defended targets). Lockeed has also proposed building a F-22B, which would be a medium bomber based on the Raptor airframe but larger/bigger payload etc.

                  The F-117 has one advantage over the aforementioned: it has performed well in three major air campaigns (ODS, Kosovo, OIE). In other words, it is battle tested.

                  In my opinion, the F-117's only drawback is its relativley small payload (2 2000lb JDAMs).
                  The A-10C will do CAS and most AG. The F-35 will do other AG missions like SEAD and strike. F-22s will mainly do Air Superiority, cruise missile defence, bomber escorting and other A2A missions. The F117 will do regional bombing like F-15E, I guess.

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                  • #10
                    The F-22 can defend itself WAY better than the F-117, as well. It has AESA radar, Supercruise, TVC, AAM's, etc. I'd much rather be in an F-22 than an F-117 in enemy territory, any day.

                    Remember, only 40% of the F-22's capability is known; IMAGINE what they're keeping classified?

                    As I said on another forum: If we knew the true capability of the F-22, we'd probably not be surprised at it's price tag.

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                    • #11
                      I have some anecdotal evidence that backs what you're saying, but it's not open source stuff, and no one would believe me if i repeated it here anyway.

                      The F-22 truly is a predator.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by M21Sniper
                        I have some anecdotal evidence that backs what you're saying, but it's not open source stuff, and no one would believe me if i repeated it here anyway.

                        The F-22 truly is a predator.
                        Snipe - Give us the anecdotal evidence if you can dude! C'mon! "I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you." You can hunt us down afterwards. :)

                        I read an article, I think it was posted up here actually, about an excersize pitting the F-22 v. F-15 (maybe F-16?), and the pilots of the latter aircraft were dumbfounded by the Raptor ... dead long before they saw them.

                        Given the fact that the Raptor is an aircraft that will likely revolutionize modern warfare, and the fact that the program is profoundly expensive, I find it surprising that the "media" has not given it more attention. They must have some talented PR folks working in the Pentagon.

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                        • #13
                          Maybe there is more than one reason why the F-22 is the F/A-22 now. It can circle around an SA20 triumf without being detected. Flight sims are completely inaccurate about the F-22. If they were accurate, they would be too easy.

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                          • #14
                            RE: Has the F117 out lived its usefulness?

                            > canoe
                            > I understand the need to retain the B2's for the large payload/nuclear option, but
                            > given the airforce has the F22 and tomahawk cruise missiles plus the fact they will
                            > soon have combat UAV's capable of bombing missions is there really any requirement to
                            > retain the F117's now?
                            Yes there is need for the F-117. When comparing the F-117, B-2 or, F-22, the smalest to larges RCS's are F-22, B-2 and, F-117. Yes the B-2 can perform the task of the F-117 but, I would rather risk a F-117 than a B-2.
                            There are not enough aircraft to truely fill out the numbers of aircraft required. There is also the price issue, to lose a B-2 in combat more technology falls into the hands of the bad guys, and the USA has lost a $500M aircraft. The F-22 has marvelous capablities but it can not cary two 2,000 pound bombs internally plus it cost $100M (by lot #6 the price will be under this amount!). The F-22 as an attack aircraft is a PR stunt! This aircraft is to valuable to be used as an attack aircraft but, in an era where any aircraft has to be able to do more than one type of mission. So this leaves the F-117 which cost $45M to produce, several million more to upgrade but still a long ways in price from the other two aircraft. Yes it has the largest RCS of the three aircraft but until the F-35 comes along in numbers, it is the best for most missions. Its RCS is low enough where it is still very low observable, it has to be close to be detected.


                            > hello
                            > What are the payloads and capacity of the F-35?
                            It is around 13,000 pounds to 17,000 pounds depending on the version, range and, mission particulars.
                            URL
                            http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-35.htm

                            > The A-10C will do CAS and most AG
                            The way the US Military is being organized along with the deep interdiction mission, CAS is being given up or greatly reduced. It is a mission the USAF never wanted a part of but they still don't want the Army to be allowed to have fixed wing aircraft.


                            > M21Sniper
                            > The F-22 truly is a predator
                            So true! A EF-2000 test pilot was saying the air dominance role is very different from air superiority. In an attack, the F-22 would leave long before the attack package. It would cruise over bad guy land and when they bad guys scrambled their interceptors, it would kill them before they had time to form up or gain enough energy to escape an incomming Slammer Missile. At night it will be a terror weapon, for the amount of visiablity one normally has during the day would be absent and there would be less means of detection. The F-22 could roll in "on your six" and you will never know it. Or come at your three or nine o'clock and again you would have no clue!

                            Here is the URL for an article writen by "Vprwzl" an F-16C pilot and his encounter with an F-22, interesting reading on the F-16.Net web board.
                            F-16 Versus the F-22 By Vprwzl
                            http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=P...8213bc383fa95f

                            Adrian

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by M21Sniper
                              "Originally Posted by Franco Lolan
                              Isn't the F/A-22 stealthier?"



                              Lieberstande: "I do believe so."

                              The F-22 is the stealthiest manned aircraft ever fielded.

                              The F-22 can embark a max of 8 SDBs(but would normally embark six wit two AIM-9X i think), or 2 2000lb JDAM w/ 2 AIM-9X, or six AMRAAM and two AIM-9X----those are internal loads.

                              The F-22s four external 'stealthy' hardpoints can carry many thousands of pounds of external ordnance, including up to 8 additional AMRAAMs besides the six in the internal bay.
                              What is a small diameter bomb? 250lbs? Geez, you would think that they could be a bit more creative with the name. That is almost as bad as calling margirine "I can't Believe it is not Butter!" They should have named the Tomahawk "18 foot misslie."

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