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Su-47MKI
13 Aug 05,, 01:36
The Indian army is in dire need of new tanks to replace the ageing T-55s and Vijayanta tanks it has. The T-72s and T-90s are not enough to do that job. Do you guys think the IA will ever purchase some western tanks such as the Merkava Mk.4, Leopard 2, the M1 and the LeClerc? It has been offered the Merkava before...but it did not purchase it.

Asim Aquil
13 Aug 05,, 02:08
Will the Merkava suit the Run of Kutch, Thar Desert terrain?

Officer of Engineers
13 Aug 05,, 02:57
The purchase of any Western tank would mean that the designers of the ARJUN were right and that the InA will never admit.

magic-spaceship
13 Aug 05,, 03:27
The purchase of any Western tank would mean that the designers of the ARJUN were right and that the InA will never admit.


What may I ask was the designers of the ARJUN right about?

Su-47MKI
13 Aug 05,, 03:27
The purchase of any Western tank would mean that the designers of the ARJUN were right and that the InA will never admit.

Right about what? They would be fools to leave the army in a vulnerable position just to protect their own sense of pride.

As for the Merkava, it should be able to perform well on desert terrain. It works perfectly in the Arabian desert, so it should be able to do the same in the Thar desert.

Officer of Engineers
13 Aug 05,, 03:36
Right about what?

The specifications.

magic-spaceship
13 Aug 05,, 03:37
The specifications.


could you put that into a better context for me? Were the designers at odds with the InA?

Officer of Engineers
13 Aug 05,, 03:56
I will let Colonel (Ret'd) Ajai Shukla describe those contentions in his own words.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=49099&postcount=102

Asim Aquil
13 Aug 05,, 04:15
As for the Merkava, it should be able to perform well on desert terrain. It works perfectly in the Arabian desert, so it should be able to do the same in the Thar desert.

Different type of deserts. Run of Kutch is not a dune area. Nor is Wagha. Also I usually see a Merkava doing some urban warfare.

magic-spaceship
13 Aug 05,, 04:16
I will let Colonel (Ret'd) Ajai Shukla describe those contentions in his own words.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=49099&postcount=102


thank you

Asim Aquil
13 Aug 05,, 04:18
Awesome avatar, btw.

Wraith601
13 Aug 05,, 04:49
I will let Colonel (Ret'd) Ajai Shukla describe those contentions in his own words.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=49099&postcount=102

What's a crore? Maybe one of our Indian posters can enlighten me.

Su-47MKI
13 Aug 05,, 05:07
What's a crore? Maybe one of our Indian posters can enlighten me.
A crore is 10 million rupees.

Su-47MKI
13 Aug 05,, 05:50
I will let Colonel (Ret'd) Ajai Shukla describe those contentions in his own words.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=49099&postcount=102
hmm...thanks for the article. After reading what the ex-Colonel said, i say forget the Merkavas for now and upgrade all the T-72s and build more T-90s(at least 2000 to make up for the T-55s and Vijayantas that are gonna be dumped). The Russians were offering a T-72 upgrade package that would bring it to the same level as the T-90.

What i am surprised about is that the Arjun is too wide for the rail cars in India. It is surprising since India has the widest gauge railroads in the world.

Wraith601
13 Aug 05,, 07:05
A crore is 10 million rupees.

Thanks.

Officer of Engineers
13 Aug 05,, 08:51
hmm...thanks for the article. After reading what the ex-Colonel said, i say forget the Merkavas for now and upgrade all the T-72s and build more T-90s(at least 2000 to make up for the T-55s and Vijayantas that are gonna be dumped). The Russians were offering a T-72 upgrade package that would bring it to the same level as the T-90.

You will note that two other officers, myself and the good Brigadier Ray, disagree with Col Shukla.

Samudra
13 Aug 05,, 09:17
Ah , the Arjun saga !

Well , atleast I'm happy they bought the Pinaka MBRLs and INSAS.

Will CADA buy Akash or Trishul ?
If they do , then i think we have done a fine job in our indigenisation so far.
I remember asking someone in AI-05 about Akash , he only said "Lets hope for the best" with a smile - the meaning of which he wont tell nor can i comprehend to this day.

Given all the publicity stunts like christening it the 'Indian version of Patriot' , it should live upto its name.

Su-47MKI
13 Aug 05,, 16:11
You will note that two other officers, myself and the good Brigadier Ray, disagree with Col Shukla.
What do you guys disagree with Col. Shukla on?

vishal_mig29
13 Aug 05,, 16:57
Hi this is Vishal

Officer of Engineers
13 Aug 05,, 22:13
What do you guys disagree with Col. Shukla on?

For one, we know just as much as he does and his "expertise" does not impress us. Would helped if he explained himself rather than to say "because I say so" and "you don't have the background to understand." Well, we both have the background to understand. A Canadian LCol and an Indian Brigadier have earned that at least.

As for myself, Col Shukla completely misread NATO and Warsaw Pact Doctrines and the roles that tanks on the respective side play. His heavy emphasis on NATO's attack helos is really skewed off the mark and ignores the ground realities that the ABRAMS/LEOPARDS/CHALLENGERS/LECLERC present at Fulda Gap.

I have a few nitpicking to do with his thoughts about how a homegrown ARJUN is more illsuited to India than a foreign T-72. However, he left before answering my questions.

aaaditya
14 Aug 05,, 00:29
rann of kutch is a marshy region any battle tank operating there will be bogged down there are very few solid paths available and these are all marked by both the sides so tank battle in the rann would not be a good idea.
idealy i would like arjun to be inducted with say the french suralmo hyperbar engine upgraded to 1500-1600hp and the israeli trophy self defence system,this will be more than enough,the indian rail cars have been modified and can now accomodate arjun tanks,i beleive indian sarvatra nad karthick bridge layer tanks have been specifically designed with the arjun in mind. :biggrin:

Blademaster
14 Aug 05,, 15:29
It all comes down to the end: Money.

I strongly suspect the real reason why Arjun haters strongly dislike the Arjuns for several reasons: It is the battle queen and thus demands a rather greater amount of money than T-72s or T-90s would demand and it is a hangar queen which demands the most attention from maintenance crews.

THe only real reason why T-72 & T-90s tank supporters get a lot of support over Arjuns in the army is because infantry & artillery & other elements support the T-72s advocates in fear of slashing their own budgets to support the Arjun tanks. It is sort of like a mini Pentagon war situation going on and the Arjun people are on the losing side.

A good tank but too many distractors.

Kontakt Era
15 Aug 05,, 00:40
It all comes down to the end: Money.

I strongly suspect the real reason why Arjun haters strongly dislike the Arjuns for several reasons: It is the battle queen and thus demands a rather greater amount of money than T-72s or T-90s would demand and it is a hangar queen which demands the most attention from maintenance crews.

THe only real reason why T-72 & T-90s tank supporters get a lot of support over Arjuns in the army is because infantry & artillery & other elements support the T-72s advocates in fear of slashing their own budgets to support the Arjun tanks. It is sort of like a mini Pentagon war situation going on and the Arjun people are on the losing side.

A good tank but too many distractors.

That sounds like the problem the Americans had with the Bradley. Anyways, is India buying Smerch from Russia? DO you think Russia will give India copy right on that MRLS? I always thought that the Pinaka wasnt too hot. It can only do 40km right? I also heard it was inaccurate. Is that true?

ArjunMK1
15 Aug 05,, 20:42
Arjun is going to have Russian Arena self defence suite and Israeli Lahat missile.

Su-47MKI
15 Aug 05,, 21:05
I think DRDO should partner up with the Israeli company that manufactures the Merkava or the German company that makes the Leopard 2 to fix whatever remaining problems it has. It would b e great if they could bring it up to Leopard 2A6 specifications.

aaaditya
15 Aug 05,, 21:49
well i would prefer the israeli trophy to the russian arena or the shtora. :biggrin:

ArjunMK1
16 Aug 05,, 21:16
well i would prefer the israeli trophy to the russian arena or the shtora. :biggrin:

Shorta is on T90s. T72 upgrades will have Arena and Arjun might get them.

Main problem of Arjun is non availability of 1500 hp indigenious engine . The German 1400 hp one is larger and requires more space and it makes the tank a bit underpowered.


what is so good abt. israeli Trophy ???

aaaditya
17 Aug 05,, 14:29
trophy is the best self defence system.

ArjunMK1
17 Aug 05,, 17:27
trophy is the best self defence system.

Pls post something abt. Trophy .

Thanks in advance :)