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View Full Version : India thinking of buying 8 - 10 Rafale M fror INS Vikramadatya



Proud Indian
11 Aug 05,, 04:07
Hey guys

Watz up wid navy they are prefering Rafale M (Naval variant) instead Mig29 K's
Even though the order has been set for Mig 29K's Indian Navy wants to get their hands on Rafale M

Any ideas guys?
Rafale M or Mig29K's

Thanx Guys

Adux
11 Aug 05,, 04:18
Hey guys

Watz up wid navy they are prefering Rafale M (Naval variant) instead Mig29 K's
Even though the order has been set for Mig 29K's Indian Navy wants to get their hands on Rafale M

Any ideas guys?
Rafale M or Mig29K's

Thanx Guys

can u back ur claims with links..rafael needs a catobar carrier while INS VIK is a stobar, so u r wrong

Josh

Proud Indian
11 Aug 05,, 04:32
can u back ur claims with links..rafael needs a catobar carrier while INS VIK is a stobar, so u r wrong

Josh
Yeh ! mate Theres the link

kool

http://www.navlog.org/indian_rafales.html

Su-47MKI
11 Aug 05,, 04:36
Thats from 2003. A lot of things have changed. They decided to purchase around 30 MiG-29ks for the carrier instead. Eitherway, the MiG-29ks are good enough for now. The Rafale or JSF may be necessary for carriers in the future though. I think India is constructing 3 ADS carriers, getting the refitted Vikramaditya by 2007, and i have heard that it may purchase the HMS Invincible, so there is a lot of room for new aircraft procurements.

brownboi4eva
11 Aug 05,, 23:06
Sources from the naval command have said that they want 5 FULLY operational Carriers by the year 2020 - First Ads, Vikramaditya and 3 more.....i have my sources in the navy, please dont ask who

rickusn
12 Aug 05,, 00:03
Ive heard four before but not five. But if they have three operational by then it will still be quite a feat.

BTW Who?



Just kidding. LOL

brownboi4eva
12 Aug 05,, 03:07
LOL sorry i cant tell rick ....i know you are the Navy guy around here so i really respect your opinion. IMHO i am more than sure they will have 3 by 2015- 1st ADS, Vikramaditya and either Refit the current one [really pushing the envelope] or HMS invincible...having 5 AC's will really make India the naval authority in the Indian Ocean dont you think....also Rick can you please gimme your opinion on the Indian frigates???

by the way, any news on the nuclear submarine plan???

rickusn
12 Aug 05,, 04:46
If they get the Invincible( I hadnt considered that possibility when I posted-one reason is that the Indian Navy so far has passed on the offer of ex-UK SHARS and another is the possibility of picking up ex-USN LHA's) and can keep the Vikramaditya in service through 2020 plus get three ADS or eqiv. built by 2020 then certainly five total is possible but IMHO not likely.

On Surface Combatants:

With 3 Project 15A(Bangalore class-Dehli derivative), 3 Project 15(Dehli class), 5 Rajput(Russian-Kashin class), 3 + ? Project 17 class(Shivalik class-Talwar derivative) and 3 Talwar class (Russian-design based on the Krivak class) they will have 12 relatively modern ships with a viable AAW capability and 5 older ships(Rajput class) of dubious value in the near term.

Im not really keen on either the Top Plate radar or the single armed- launchers which predominate the 12 newer ships(VLS of a sort for the Shtil (SAN-7) system missles only in the new Project 15A class).

With the Brahmos missle the should have an excellent Anti-ship and land-attack weapon in the Project 15A, Shivalik and Talwar classes. Although for land-attack the missle load-outs are small. Plus one rajput class has been retrofitted with four of them. Im not sure of the plans for the Dehli class retro-fit if any.

ASW is credible for all these ships.

The six Project 16/16A class frigates are fine ships also. In particular the more modern and heavily armed 16A combatants.

The four remaining Leanders are fine for training and as limited ASW escorts.

The mix of Western and Russian-designed systems must create integration challenges.

The next step is a ship more comparable to the newest Western type AAW-multi-purpose destroyer. The Top Plate radar and missles now used are limited compared to Western AAW standards.

The Indians need to get better at shipbuilding especially the protracted building times.

But they are certainly a force to be reckoned with. The US, France and Russia all exercise regularly with the Indian Navy.

rickusn
12 Aug 05,, 05:06
Nuclear-poweres submarines is quite secretive and rumor filled. Talks of leasing Russian platforms is on again/off again.

Here is a brief synopsis from www.bharat-rakshak.com:

"The hull design is ready and the displacement is estimated to be at 6000 tons. The 190 MW miniature nuclear propulsion system has been tested ashore, possibly at the Kalapakkam atomic research centre. Given the degree of Russian technical assistance, the submarine could resemble the Severodvinsk Class and/or the Akula Class. Reportedly, the submarine will have VLS tubes capable of firing multiple weapons. Fabrication has already commenced at Vizag, but there are no indications as to when the vessel will be laid down or launched. The plan is for a class of five submarines fitted with long-range, nuclear-tipped missiles. A nuclear-capable missile (dubbed 'Sagarika' by the press) is reportedly under development at the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) at Bangalore, in southern India."

One of these five is rumored to be a possible SSBN.

rickusn
12 Aug 05,, 05:42
Nuclear-sub project gathers steam
RAJAT PANDIT

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, JULY 20, 2005 10:31:22 PM ]


NEW DELHI: By the end of this decade, India should have a fully-operational nuclear submarine of its own. The Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project to build a nuclear-powered, guided-missile attack submarine is now on track after years of technical glitches and design problems.

"The first functional ATV should be ready for trials by 2007-08. The technical problems, including fitting a miniaturised pressurised water reactor (PWR) and its containment vessel in the submarine’s hull, have more or less been sorted out,"says a top source.

Sources add that the two heavily-guarded ATV project complexes at Vishakapatnam naval dockyard, where the basic submarine structure is being fabricated, and Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research at Kalpakkam, where the PWRs are being tested, are witnessing a flurry of activity these days.

The project has been shrouded in secrecy ever since it was formally launched in 1983, with successive governments either denying its very existence or being deliberately vague about it.

Interestingly, one of the grounds for sacking Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat as the Navy chief in December 1998 was his expression of concern, in public, for the slow progress of the ATV project.

Apart from the Navy, which operated a leased Russian nuclear submarine ‘INS Chakra’ from 1988 to 1991, a whole host of agencies ranging from Bhabha Atomic Research Centre to the Defence Research and Development Organisation are involved in the hush-hush project.

Russia, too, is providing technical help to the project in the form of PWRs and vessel designs.

Compared to conventional submarines, nuclear-propelled submarines can operate at higher speeds for virtually unlimited ranges, without surfacing to recharge batteries, apart from carrying a larger arsenal of weapons.

Faced with an ageing fleet of 16 conventional diesel-electric submarines, coupled with the government decision to now renegotiate the French Scorpene project due to cost-escalation, a successful ATV project can bring good cheer to the Navy.

India, of course, eventually plans to arm nuclear-powered submarines with nuclear-tipped missiles since they provide the most effective and secure platform for a second-strike capability.

The Navy is also keen to lease another nuclear submarine from Russia as soon as possible to regain the skills learned while operating 'INS Chakra', before it inducts the ATV.

Most of the personnel trained on 'INS Chakra', a "Charlie-I"or "Skat"class guided missile submarine, which was also based at the Vishakapatnam naval dockyard, have since retired.



Also some say it will be in service by 2010 with ten in service by 2015!!!!!!!!!

brownboi4eva
12 Aug 05,, 06:59
SO rick with the IN aqquiring 5 of these by the year 2015 along with say 3 carriers do you think they are a dangerous navy in Tier 2...obviously USN being Tier 1

Unipidity
12 Aug 05,, 07:56
From a strategic PoV, who is the SSGN supposed to be used against? China? I dont really see the point of a SSGN against Pakistan. And is it not true that the weapons to defeat a 1st-gen SSN are going to be a lot cheaper than that project?




Nuclear-sub project gathers steam
RAJAT PANDIT

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, JULY 20, 2005 10:31:22 PM ]


NEW DELHI: By the end of this decade, India should have a fully-operational nuclear submarine of its own. The Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project to build a nuclear-powered, guided-missile attack submarine is now on track after years of technical glitches and design problems.

"The first functional ATV should be ready for trials by 2007-08. The technical problems, including fitting a miniaturised pressurised water reactor (PWR) and its containment vessel in the submarine’s hull, have more or less been sorted out,"says a top source.

Sources add that the two heavily-guarded ATV project complexes at Vishakapatnam naval dockyard, where the basic submarine structure is being fabricated, and Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research at Kalpakkam, where the PWRs are being tested, are witnessing a flurry of activity these days.

The project has been shrouded in secrecy ever since it was formally launched in 1983, with successive governments either denying its very existence or being deliberately vague about it.

Interestingly, one of the grounds for sacking Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat as the Navy chief in December 1998 was his expression of concern, in public, for the slow progress of the ATV project.

Apart from the Navy, which operated a leased Russian nuclear submarine ‘INS Chakra’ from 1988 to 1991, a whole host of agencies ranging from Bhabha Atomic Research Centre to the Defence Research and Development Organisation are involved in the hush-hush project.

Russia, too, is providing technical help to the project in the form of PWRs and vessel designs.

Compared to conventional submarines, nuclear-propelled submarines can operate at higher speeds for virtually unlimited ranges, without surfacing to recharge batteries, apart from carrying a larger arsenal of weapons.

Faced with an ageing fleet of 16 conventional diesel-electric submarines, coupled with the government decision to now renegotiate the French Scorpene project due to cost-escalation, a successful ATV project can bring good cheer to the Navy.

India, of course, eventually plans to arm nuclear-powered submarines with nuclear-tipped missiles since they provide the most effective and secure platform for a second-strike capability.

The Navy is also keen to lease another nuclear submarine from Russia as soon as possible to regain the skills learned while operating 'INS Chakra', before it inducts the ATV.

Most of the personnel trained on 'INS Chakra', a "Charlie-I"or "Skat"class guided missile submarine, which was also based at the Vishakapatnam naval dockyard, have since retired.



Also some say it will be in service by 2010 with ten in service by 2015!!!!!!!!!

JBodnar39
12 Aug 05,, 19:53
I personally have been quite impressed with India's military buildup. India is striving to become a world power. Its airfroce is already quite impressive, and as it continues to build SU-30's, replaces the Mig-21's with a new fighter en-masse, and aquires more tankers, and AEW platfroms it will be a dominant force. It's ships sport effective SSM's (SS-N-25, SSN-27, and Brahmos when it comes out). The air defenses on their ships lack a long range capability like SM-2/SA-N-6/ASTER-30, but they are armed pretty good for close in defense. As an example the Delhis have SAN/12 (effective butg with a range of less than 20 miles) and Baraks are being fitted on all of the ships as well. Against a saturation misssel atack a single Delhi has 44 SAN12's than are fired from two single launchers and 32 VLS Barak. The SAN12 system has 6 illuminators and the two EL/M-2221 for the Baraks can each target two different attackers; that would give a Delhi the capability of simultaneously engaging 10 incoming missles - not bad at all.

Su-47MKI
12 Aug 05,, 20:38
What i don't understand is why India doesn't purchase even more Su-30MKIs and increase production of them. They are much cheaper than F-16s(the MKIs cost less than 30million when they are manufactured in India) and they are better than anything else. A force of 400 Su-30MKIs would be more than enough to effectively counter all threats. They can also be used for naval roles and they are a platform for the BrahMos cruise missile.

rickusn
12 Aug 05,, 23:09
SO rick with the IN aqquiring 5 of these by the year 2015 along with say 3 carriers do you think they are a dangerous navy in Tier 2...obviously USN being Tier 1

Obviously they are already dangerous to ANY navy coming into their backyard.

Certainly by 2015 they could be a Tier 2. However part of my criteria for Tier 2 is that they actually have to be able to deploy world-wide on a consistent basis. Means to me that Replenishment ship #s have to be increased and a longer-range SAM system with better radars/combat systems are needed.

The USSR mostly makes it on its large nuclear-powered submarine force nowadays. Their Udaloy class destroyers are quite credible along with a handful of the Sovremmenny class .

France has a broad range of capabilities but limited #s in all capabilities.

The UK has a history of operating world-wide with a superb Replenishment capability. But they desperately need the Daring class DDG's, Astute class SSN's and CVF carrier programs to reach fruition to maintain a credible combat capability world-wide.

But as for controlling the Indian Ocean the Indian navy is almost there and that may actually be more important than world-wide ops.

I broke nations into Tiers not so much to rank as to facilitate a comparison of navies with a similar force structure in particular #s wise, then carriers, then platform capability wise, then regional/ world-wide ops wise and then of course people wise. Also indigenous shipbuilding capabilities plus weapon/sensor manufacturing and/or integration are also important considerations. Then I try to synthesise the whole into a reasonable determination of where a particular navy fits.

Navies are hard to pigeon-hole but some means is necessary to differentiate into groups for easier analysis. But #s certainly count for alot.
.
Remember all navies are built with a certain purpose. How they address that purpose is quite important.

Looking at 50 plus navies as a whole can be a confusing task. Breaking them into groups makes it less daunting for me.

Hope that was helpful.

JBodnar39
13 Aug 05,, 00:54
What i don't understand is why India doesn't purchase even more Su-30MKIs and increase production of them. They are much cheaper than F-16s(the MKIs cost less than 30million when they are manufactured in India) and they are better than anything else. A force of 400 Su-30MKIs would be more than enough to effectively counter all threats. They can also be used for naval roles and they are a platform for the BrahMos cruise missile.

I didn't know that the Brahmos could be carried by an SU-30 - thought the missle was too heavy - I know they already ruled out its carriage on the carrier born MiG-29's because of weight. The SU-30 is an excellent platform for air to air roles and - even if it cannot carry Brahmos - fitted with something like AS-17's they would be tremendous ASuw platforms as well.

I'm guessing that they are not going fo rmore SU-30's because of the time it would take to get them into service. I think India's production capacity for the SU-30 right now is about 12AC/year (that is a guess) and that may rise to over 20 per year down the line and they are planning to take ten years to build 140 of them. They do not want to buy any more from Russia - they want to make them themselves (it increases the capabilty of their own domestic design and production capabilities to do this). At the same time they may only want to tie up a certain percentage of their domestic production capabilities - with other resouces in the industry being devoted to indigenious designs; this is all a guess of course - my practical knowledge of the defense industry is very limited.

What will be very interesting is the choice India makes to replace its MiG-21's. They are going to need something like 180 AC for that. That nice little stopgap modif they did to their MiG-21's will give them enough time to choose carefully. I think the top contenders are the F-16, F-18, and MiG-29. I don't know much about their ability to design and produce domestic aircraft - so I don;t see wher the LCA fits in - however that little Dhruv helo they built sure is pretty.

Su-47MKI
13 Aug 05,, 01:23
I think the IAF isn't getting more MKIs because these bastard politicians would much rather steal the money and use it for themselves. It shouldn't cost too much to double or even triple production and it will cost less than manufacturing 126 new fighters.

By the way, i think they are going ot be releasing an air launchable version of hte brahmos to go on the Su-30 sometime this year. There is no way that the land/naval based brahmos can be launched from an Su-30. As for indigenous designs, if they put more money into them, the LCA and Arjuns would be in full production right now. But...these idiots are stubborn and refuse to buy anything to full the void the Arjun was supposed to fill. The IA could have purchased thousands of Merkava Mk.4s to replace all the Vijayanta and T-55s and take the place of the Arjun...but it decided to let the Vijayantas and T-55s rot in sheds and it purchased a few hundred T-90s... :mad:

In the end, they might end up buying more Su-30s anyway. They tend to make surprise defence purchases a lot...like those 400 extra T-90s they purchased...i just wish the Indian government would take defence purchases more seriously and get things done quickly. The only time they ever get defence related things done quickly is when Pakistan or China makes a huge defence purchase.

Proud Indian
13 Aug 05,, 04:41
I think the IAF isn't getting more MKIs because these bastard politicians would much rather steal the money and use it for themselves. It shouldn't cost too much to double or even triple production and it will cost less than manufacturing 126 new fighters.

By the way, i think they are going ot be releasing an air launchable version of hte brahmos to go on the Su-30 sometime this year. There is no way that the land/naval based brahmos can be launched from an Su-30. As for indigenous designs, if they put more money into them, the LCA and Arjuns would be in full production right now. But...these idiots are stubborn and refuse to buy anything to full the void the Arjun was supposed to fill. The IA could have purchased thousands of Merkava Mk.4s to replace all the Vijayanta and T-55s and take the place of the Arjun...but it decided to let the Vijayantas and T-55s rot in sheds and it purchased a few hundred T-90s... :mad:

In the end, they might end up buying more Su-30s anyway. They tend to make surprise defence purchases a lot...like those 400 extra T-90s they purchased...i just wish the Indian government would take defence purchases more seriously and get things done quickly. The only time they ever get defence related things done quickly is when Pakistan or China makes a huge defence purchase.


Saale Kutte politician lol

They feakin dick heads arent they mate

vishal_mig29
13 Aug 05,, 15:31
Hey guys

Watz up wid navy they are prefering Rafale M (Naval variant) instead Mig29 K's
Even though the order has been set for Mig 29K's Indian Navy wants to get their hands on Rafale M

Any ideas guys?
Rafale M or Mig29K's

Thanx Guys

This is Vishal, Your new friend

Proud Indian
14 Aug 05,, 05:16
This is Vishal, Your new friend
FRENDS FOREVER mate!

GUD ON YA
now i atleast have 1frend
:) :) :) :) :) :) ;)

vishal_mig29
14 Aug 05,, 06:54
i m just crazy about studying the defence force

I write in the news paper ( Language marathi )

recently I had written about the 125 aircraft purchase

brownboi4eva
14 Aug 05,, 08:03
They are looking for a replacement for the Mig-21 and Mig - 25's....MKI is a Heavy long range air superiority aircraft, and lca is a small light aircraft...they are looking for an aircraft to fill the middle role...

Adux
14 Aug 05,, 18:43
hey vishal whatever

reduce the font, this aint PDF and how old are u

josh

vinney
14 Oct 05,, 20:47
Sorry folks but HMS Invincible is going nowhere :biggrin:

killer
24 Oct 05,, 12:16
Hey guys

Watz up wid navy they are prefering Rafale M (Naval variant) instead Mig29 K's
Even though the order has been set for Mig 29K's Indian Navy wants to get their hands on Rafale M

Any ideas guys?
Rafale M or Mig29K's

Thanx Guys

ANSWER IS BIG NO. AFTER MIG 29K NAVY IS NOT INTERESTED.