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  • Forgotten lessons?

    Europe has vast experience with combating terrorism, but this seems to be overlooked. In fact US was the last bigger western nation to experiance terrorism on it's own soil. US could learn much from Europe, specialy from terrorism in France(Algerian conflict, ETA), Britain(Northern Ireland), Spain(ETA), Italy(Red Brigades)... Europe has learned the hard way by making mistakes and paying for it, like British to heavy handed approach to Northern Ireland which only caused more violence and support for the extremist IRA. Nortern Ireland only became peacefull when troops were withdrawn (less active role) and local Police has taken over the task of protecting against terrorism. France has the best record in Europe for combating terrorism (thwarted Strasbourg attack...), but it is labelled as a state that is soft on terrorism because it has opposed the war in Iraq. I think US has much to learn as does Europe, but US could learn some lessons without paying the price. I'm interested on your opinion.

  • #2
    Originally posted by SloMax
    In fact US was the last bigger western nation to experiance terrorism on it's own soil.
    That's the party line, but it is untrue. The USA has dealt with terrorism since before it was called terroism, and before there was a USA. Everything from savage attacks by Native Americans, actions durring the American Revolution and Civil War, anarchists, both domestic and international pirates/privateers, abortion center bombings, riots, the 93 attack on the World Trade Center, Oklahoma City, and so on...
    No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
    I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
    even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
    He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

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    • #3
      Originally posted by SloMax
      Europe has vast experience with combating terrorism, but this seems to be overlooked.
      One would have to be a fool to fail to recognize Europe's vast experience with combating terrorism, and indeed they have much to teach us there. Where we differ is that they have rarely successfully gone to the source of their problems and attempted to change the nature of that source.

      -dale

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      • #4
        This may be because in many cases there is no palatable cure for problems that led to the growth of terrorists’ movements, such as ETA, or the IRA. Even though it does seems like the IRA have laid down their arms (at least for the time being), through the barely palatable device of giving their political arm a try at working out a political solution to those problems that gave rise to them in the first place.
        Yet European counter terrorist forces were (in time) able to root out and to a large extent nullify such groups as the Red Brigades in Italy, the Red Army Faction in Germany and others in France and Greece.
        When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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        • #5
          The IRA lost their support with the Omagh bombing, since then they have been seen by their 'own people' as nothing but a bunch of drug running thugs.
          In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

          Leibniz

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Amled
            This may be because in many cases there is no palatable cure for problems that led to the growth of terrorists’ movements, such as ETA, or the IRA. Even though it does seems like the IRA have laid down their arms (at least for the time being), through the barely palatable device of giving their political arm a try at working out a political solution to those problems that gave rise to them in the first place.
            Yet European counter terrorist forces were (in time) able to root out and to a large extent nullify such groups as the Red Brigades in Italy, the Red Army Faction in Germany and others in France and Greece.
            Relatively small groups operating within limited space with outside support are difficult to handle but it can be done over time, as has been shown with your examples above. Also note the ..."more expedient", shall we say, Fujimori method of taking anyone you think is a member of Sendero Luminoso and simply throwing them out of helicopters at 5,000 ft. Eventually, even if you are halfway competent you will get most of them. Hardly something to emulate, but note that it did seem to work.

            So 99% of the old Commie militant groups are gone or might as well be gone. The purely nationalistic ones - IRA, ETA, Tamil Tigers, etc., seem to be local enough to be handled by local means and international law enforcement in most cases. But the large group dispersed over many nations with many transcultural ties to multiple state sponsors is a different animal. No amount of swatting at these flies when they alight on you is going to get to the heart of the real problem, which is the nature of the tyrannical and oppressive regimes which breed them.

            -dale

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dalem
              No amount of swatting at these flies when they alight on you is going to get to the heart of the real problem, which is the nature of the tyrannical and oppressive regimes which breed them.-dale
              So how are they to be fought?
              Cutting of the hands of the beast won’t work there are new zealots Islamic teaching centres worldwide. Even killing or capturing leaders like Usama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, won’t destroy them. There is already evidence that Al Qaeda is turning into a terrorist franchise, where cells independent from the mother organization simply carry out operations in its name.
              Regime changes in the countries that spawned them seems to be like locking the door after the horses have bolted. Al Quadra’s litany of terror has already spread to countries that can’t be characterized as tyrannical and oppressive, if the Madrid and London are any indication.
              I’d be the last to counsel appeasement or surrender. But how do you root out a movement that already has all the characteristics of a hydra?
              When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Amled
                So how are they to be fought?
                Cutting of the hands of the beast won’t work there are new zealots Islamic teaching centres worldwide. Even killing or capturing leaders like Usama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, won’t destroy them. There is already evidence that Al Qaeda is turning into a terrorist franchise, where cells independent from the mother organization simply carry out operations in its name.
                Regime changes in the countries that spawned them seems to be like locking the door after the horses have bolted. Al Quadra’s litany of terror has already spread to countries that can’t be characterized as tyrannical and oppressive, if the Madrid and London are any indication.
                I’d be the last to counsel appeasement or surrender. But how do you root out a movement that already has all the characteristics of a hydra?
                You fight them just the way we are doing now: Kill the heads of the hydra when they emerge from the caves, and penetrate the caves one by one and attack the bodies of the beasts.

                Democratizing the Middle East will solve a huge portion of the root of the problem, reformation of Islam will solve most of the rest of it.

                -dale

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dalem
                  Democratizing the Middle East will solve a huge portion of the root of the problem, reformation of Islam will solve most of the rest of it.-dale
                  The first statement is IMO do-able; difficult, but do-able. The latter will be more then difficult as its adherents believe their religion is sacrosanct.
                  When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow. - Anais Nin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SloMax
                    Europe has vast experience with combating terrorism, but this seems to be overlooked. In fact US was the last bigger western nation to experiance terrorism on it's own soil. US could learn much from Europe, specialy from terrorism in France(Algerian conflict, ETA), Britain(Northern Ireland), Spain(ETA), Italy(Red Brigades)... Europe has learned the hard way by making mistakes and paying for it, like British to heavy handed approach to Northern Ireland which only caused more violence and support for the extremist IRA. Nortern Ireland only became peacefull when troops were withdrawn (less active role) and local Police has taken over the task of protecting against terrorism. France has the best record in Europe for combating terrorism (thwarted Strasbourg attack...), but it is labelled as a state that is soft on terrorism because it has opposed the war in Iraq. I think US has much to learn as does Europe, but US could learn some lessons without paying the price. I'm interested on your opinion.
                    Europe has dealt with localized terrorism; AQ is a new phenomenon as a transnational terrorist organization. Also, the terrorism of the IRA was defeated through a decades long counterinsurgency that resulted in the ability to reduce troops at the conclusion, not as the result of a unilateral decision to remove troops. Next, I wouldn't consider ETA to be an extremely lethal organization, with few deaths coming as a result of their actions. The scale of Islamic terrorism is beyond the scope of the organizations that you have mentioned; I just read an account by Cordesman from CSIS the other day that Zarqawis money man that was captured in recent months had $35 million in his account and had access to $2-7 billion. That's some cash to finance your hate.
                    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      That's the party line, but it is untrue. The USA has dealt with terrorism since before it was called terroism, and before there was a USA. Everything from savage attacks by Native Americans, actions durring the American Revolution and Civil War, anarchists, both domestic and international pirates/privateers
                      If you wanna go that far back then I'm sure we could find even earlier examples of terrorism in Europe. What I meant was terorism in modern form, but I agree the principles didn't change thru times.
                      AQ is a new phenomenon as a transnational terrorist organization.
                      I partly agree, but the principles are the same.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SloMax
                        If you wanna go that far back then I'm sure we could find even earlier examples of terrorism in Europe. What I meant was terorism in modern form, but I agree the principles didn't change thru times.

                        I partly agree, but the principles are the same.
                        The basic principles of terror may be the same, but the tools and potential harm are not. That is why it is so dangerous.
                        "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SloMax
                          If you wanna go that far back then I'm sure we could find even earlier examples of terrorism
                          There has allways been terrorism, and there will allways be terrorism. BTW, for your American example, I went back to before the beginning. Can't go any farther back than that. ;)
                          No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                          I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                          even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                          He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

                          Comment

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