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DOR
02 Oct 17,, 10:53
First impression is a lone, local asshole.

Las Vegas strip shooting: More than 20 dead, 100 injured after gunman opens fire near Mandalay Bay casino

http://abcnews.go.com/US/vegas-strip-shooting-20-dead-100-injured-gunman/story?id=50223240

More than 20 people were killed and 100 injured when what appears to be a lone gunman opened fire from a perch high up in the the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino in Las Vegas Sunday night, police said.

The "nonstop gunfire," according to one witness, sent bystanders outside the resort on the Vegas strip ducking for cover and fleeing for their lives. Tourists hid in their hotel rooms and flights headed into the McCarran International Airport were held elsewhere.

Bystanders sprang into action, caring for the wounded and at least one described someone dying in their arms.

Videos filmed by onlookers gave a window into the chaos that ensued, with some thinking that fireworks were going off. The final night of the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival was taking place across the street from Mandalay Bay when the shooting took place and concertgoers were caught off-guard.

In the wake of the shooting, the Las Vegas Police Department said the suspected gunman, was believed to be a local, was on 32nd floor of Mandalay Bay hotel. Police responded to the scene, engaged him and he is now dead. Officials said they did not believe there were any more shooters.

Authorities were looking for a companion of the shooter, Marilou Danley, as well as two vehicles, a Hyundai Tucson and Chrysler Pacifica, both with Nevada plates. At least two police officers were hospitalised.

"We were just at the concert there, and Jason Aldean was playing," one of the concertgoers, named Mike Cronk, 48, a retired teacher, told ABC News. "Kinda sounded like some fireworks going off. I think there was the first kinda volley, and then all of the sudden second volley. My buddy's like 'I just got hit, ya know.' He got hit three times. Then people started diving for the ground. And it just continued."

"It was pretty much chaotic," Cronk continued. "Lots of people got hit. ...It took a while to get him out. We had to get him over the fence and hiding under the stage for a while, ya know, to be safe. And finally we had to move him because he had three chest wounds."

Cronk said his group were finally able to track down an ambulance "and basically the one guy ended up dying in my arms because he was bleeding," he said. "And my buddy got in there. We got three more people in the ambulance. ... But I just got a message from my buddy -- and he's going to be okay."

As bursts of gunfire crackled in the air, people outside of the casino ducked and screamed, according to video filmed by witnesses.

"We're going to get trampled if we don't go," a bystander could be heard saying in a dramatic video of the incident. Confusion appeared to abound as those outside fled the scene with another person saying, "it's fireworks."

Michelle Leonard, who was located in a booth near the main entrance of the arena, said the shooting just “kept going nonstop.”

Leonard said “mass confusion” unfolded as people tried to flee the scene. She said the shooting seemed like it went on for more than a minute.

“I had no idea of where it was coming from or where to run to," Leonard said.

She said she injured her leg as she tried to escape.

Another witness, Jake Freeman, said he was standing on the rooftop of a nearby hotel when the shooting broke out.

“I had a bird’s-eye view” of the shooting, Freeman said in a phone interview with ABC News. He said he saw "crowds of people running” as people “dropped to the ground.”

“At the moment we didn’t realize that they were being shot,” he said.

citanon
02 Oct 17,, 13:39
RIP to the victims.

From the video you can hear the shots. It sounds like the guy was using fully automatic weapons:


https://youtu.be/zodiGpCdBzQ

Oracle
02 Oct 17,, 16:31
OMG. RIP. 400+ injured is a very big number. I pray they recover quickly.

Double Edge
02 Oct 17,, 17:16
ISIS is claiming this one even though the shooters family told media he has no religious affiliations

SteveDaPirate
02 Oct 17,, 17:24
To me, the audio sounds more like slide fire or bump fire than the kind of consistency I'd expect from full auto.

Latest numbers are 58+ dead and 515 hospitalized.

kato
02 Oct 17,, 17:34
To me, the audio sounds more like slide fire or bump fire than the kind of consistency I'd expect from full auto.
The video was taken - and the victims situated - 400m slant distance from the shooter. In the video you here both the shots in the background and some more scattered noiseover, possibly including ricochet. The shots are very consistent in relatively long bursts.

citanon
02 Oct 17,, 19:53
Video from the roof of the Mandalay:

https://www.facebook.com/jason.hartman/posts/10154926717200544?pnref=story

It sounds like fully automatic weapon to me.

zraver
03 Oct 17,, 03:52
To me, the audio sounds more like slide fire or bump fire than the kind of consistency I'd expect from full auto.

Latest numbers are 58+ dead and 515 hospitalized.

I agree the most likely explanation is bumpfire.

As far as I know this is the single biggest death of Americans from a single gun position in history. This guy did more damage than any individually sighted MG42 on Omaha Beach. He rivals the the best of the Kaiser's maxim gunners on the Somme. He had a perfect elevated enfilade position with good lighting of the kill box and tightly massed victims.

Double Edge
03 Oct 17,, 04:19
Bump fire looks likely


https://www.thetrace.org/rounds/las-vegas-mass-shooting-use-automatic-weapon-rifle/

DOR
03 Oct 17,, 10:38
If every person at that concert exercised his/her 2nd Amendment "right" to be armed to the teeth in a public place, how many more people would have died?

Double Edge
03 Oct 17,, 12:14
As far as I know this is the single biggest death of Americans from a single gun position in history. This guy did more damage than any individually sighted MG42 on Omaha Beach. He rivals the the best of the Kaiser's maxim gunners on the Somme. He had a perfect elevated enfilade position with good lighting of the kill box and tightly massed victims.
Yes, its pretty damn hard to shoot people who are running. Easier if they are massed and cannot easily run away

Thinking back to Bombay in 2008, 10 shooters with assault rifles making their way across the city only managed 168, a quarter the hit rate

Earlier we got hit with high explosive bombs, three digits, then the high explosive became hard to find. So they used more bombs but lower in intensity. The numbers fell, mid two digits and further falling couldn't go higher with subsequent attacks. As the attacks increased the ring became more vulnerable and eventually ceased to exist

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

Bastille day Nice. No guns, just a truck. Got 84

That's the new way. This shooter was old school i doubt his record will be beaten for a long time. I didn't know automatic weapons are unaffordable in the US, that point doesn't come across in the usual anti-gun rhetoric i read

SteveDaPirate
03 Oct 17,, 15:20
Looks like it was probably bump fire after all.

https://apnews.com/e74a33083fb84b1b94c1ce3da986fd4f/Gunman-had-'bump-stock'-device-that-could-speed-fire



If every person at that concert exercised his/her 2nd Amendment "right" to be armed to the teeth in a public place, how many more people would have died?

I don't think it would have made any difference, the people at the concert probably had no idea where the shooter was until it was over. Most of the reports I heard indicated that people assumed the sound was fireworks until they actually saw people around them bleeding.

Oracle
03 Oct 17,, 16:31
Why would a mentally healthy individual, a millionaire as his brother described him, without any radicalization do this horrible thing and then take his own life.

citanon
03 Oct 17,, 18:17
Looks like it was probably bump fire after all.

https://apnews.com/e74a33083fb84b1b94c1ce3da986fd4f/Gunman-had-'bump-stock'-device-that-could-speed-fire




I don't think it would have made any difference, the people at the concert probably had no idea where the shooter was until it was over. Most of the reports I heard indicated that people assumed the sound was fireworks until they actually saw people around them bleeding.

Reports seem to indicate ONE bump fire stock, but multiple other guns that may have been modified for full auto.

Bumpfiring has bad consequences for accuracy and I'd imagine would be physically very tiring. It would be difficult to maintain long sustained automatic fire bursts on a target area 500 yards away, even with the help of tripods. He kept firing for over 20 min, at one point firing 280 rounds at 90 rounds/s.

IMO most likely setup is multiple full auto weapons on stands, with the guy alternating between the rifles to allow them to cool between firing.

Edit: no I could be wrong. The actual reported firing rate was 280 rounds over 30 seconds, which would make for 9 rounds per second, which is doable with bump fire.

snapper
03 Oct 17,, 18:21
Maybe signing that Executive order that made it easier for people with a history of mental disorders to buy guns was not so wise.

SteveDaPirate
03 Oct 17,, 20:06
Reports seem to indicate ONE bump fire stock, but multiple other guns that may have been modified for full auto.

Bumpfiring has bad consequences for accuracy and I'd imagine would be physically very tiring. It would be difficult to maintain long sustained automatic fire bursts on a target area 500 yards away, even with the help of tripods. He kept firing for over 20 min, at one point firing 280 rounds at 90 rounds/s.

IMO most likely setup is multiple full auto weapons on stands, with the guy alternating between the rifles to allow them to cool between firing.

Edit: no I could be wrong. The actual reported firing rate was 280 rounds over 30 seconds, which would make for 9 rounds per second, which is doable with bump fire.

An accurate rifle can usually put a grouping within 1 MOA and at 1200 feet 1 MOA is represented by a 4" target. I'll grant you that bump fire isn't going to be particularly accurate, but he's not shooting a 4" target either. His target was a crowd of 22,000 packed into an ~ 800' x 500' area.

It sounds like he probably had the means to modify a firearm for full auto if he was determined to do so, but a $99 bump fire stock would be a lot less hassle on his part and might be more achievable than expensive firearm modifications if he had suddenly found himself in arrears to a Vegas casino.

So far that's the only really plausible motive I've heard for the guy. Even that seems shaky however, since you'd think if he felt robbed by the casinos he'd direct his ire towards them rather than a crowd of concert attendees.

Double Edge
03 Oct 17,, 20:11
So far that's the only really plausible motive I've heard for the guy. Even that seems shaky however, since you'd think if he felt robbed by the casinos he'd direct his ire towards them rather than a crowd of concert attendees.
Agree

Last time we got a retiree firing it was aimed at a congressman for advocating taking away obama care.

citanon
03 Oct 17,, 20:20
I think he might have been a high functioning psychopath who decided to go out with a bang.

Maybe he lost his money, maybe he split with his girlfriend, maybe he found out he had terminal cancer. Heck, maybe he had an undiagnosed brain tumor that changed his personality.

I suspect whatever answers we find about his motive will make no sense to normal minds.

His father was a notorious criminal psychopath.

surfgun
04 Oct 17,, 01:38
How the "H" would a tripod and a bump fire stock be compatible? When they are not.

citanon
04 Oct 17,, 01:54
How the "H" would a tripod and a bump fire stock be compatible? When they are not.

Pics from the scene show bipods. Not sure if tripods was just early misreporting.

Also no firm information on whether some of his weapons were actually full auto or not.

Monash
04 Oct 17,, 07:51
Anyone care to guess how long it will take before the far right conspiracy industry starts piling in? I would say maybe 24 more hours or so - if we're lucky.

Bigfella
04 Oct 17,, 08:23
Anyone care to guess how long it will take before the far right conspiracy industry starts piling in? I would say maybe 24 more hours or so - if we're lucky.

Already happening according to people I talk to, though not just 'far right'. There is a point of detachment from reality where 'right' and 'left' cease to function as labels.

Double Edge
04 Oct 17,, 09:17
Anyone care to guess how long it will take before the far right conspiracy industry starts piling in? I would say maybe 24 more hours or so - if we're lucky.

Post some examples if you see any as i don't understand what the far right can exploit from this

The anti-gun lobby however is going well

Monash
04 Oct 17,, 12:04
Will do. FYI I was thinking along the lines of some of the poisonous Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists out there. I won't quote//link them here. You can look them up yourself if your curious.

snapper
04 Oct 17,, 12:35
An accurate rifle can usually put a grouping within 1 MOA and at 1200 feet 1 MOA is represented by a 4" target. I'll grant you that bump fire isn't going to be particularly accurate, but he's not shooting a 4" target either. His target was a crowd of 22,000 packed into an ~ 800' x 500' area.

It sounds like he probably had the means to modify a firearm for full auto if he was determined to do so, but a $99 bump fire stock would be a lot less hassle on his part and might be more achievable than expensive firearm modifications if he had suddenly found himself in arrears to a Vegas casino.

So far that's the only really plausible motive I've heard for the guy. Even that seems shaky however, since you'd think if he felt robbed by the casinos he'd direct his ire towards them rather than a crowd of concert attendees.


Perhaps less info for the next wandering nutter on the target capacity?

Double Edge
04 Oct 17,, 15:42
Will do. FYI I was thinking along the lines of some of the poisonous Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists out there. I won't quote//link them here. You can look them up yourself if your curious.

Ah, now i understand what you mean, there are people who insist the Sandy Hook school shootings never happened (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-39194035). Or that the official narrative is suspicious. Therefore the same pattern applies here too. The usual warning signs are there lol


Pozner doesn't want to disclose the city where he now lives. He's had death threats and has moved several times in recent years. Leonard Pozner has been targeted because he's fought back against trolls and conspiracy theorists who make sweeping and false allegations about the murder of his son.

Didn't realise he'd be targeted. This rings a bell for me, in India we've had three rationalists murdered over the years and i would not be surprised if the same game was at play. Getting in the way of business.

Oh there are so many now on youtube, false flag shooting bla bla people rushing to post 'the truth' about mandalay bay etc

In the youtube era, this nonsense will actually increase, just see the view counts and subscriber counts for the people putting this crap out. Money to be had if you have an imagination. Bulk are in english but the idea can be used in other languages for local events. It's here to stay : (

this board was so very helpful with debunking this nonsense over ten years ago for me. These days its called fake news.

eg

https://youtu.be/0Fp3xgmQgiA

Alt media is where its at : D

kato
04 Oct 17,, 18:08
Perhaps less info for the next wandering nutter on the target capacity?
Please, there's easier ways to cause mass casualties in a crowd on a similar level without even exposing yourself.

*points broadly at PIRA remote-controlled home-built mortar attacks*

SteveDaPirate
05 Oct 17,, 20:09
Perhaps less info for the next wandering nutter on the target capacity?

To build on what Kato noted:

The Las Vegas shooter was a pilot who personally owned a couple of aircraft.

It makes me kind of sick to even imagine it, but if his only goal was to maximize the number of people he killed at the concert and didn't object to ending his life in the process, he could have taken off from McCarran International Airport (about a mile away from the concert) then immediately turned around and crashed into the crowd with a full load of fuel.

That would have been horrific on a whole different level.

I think what makes his attack resonate so strongly in the US is that he didn't use anything particularly exotic. Any idiot could buy a rifle from the local Wal-Mart, order a bump-fire stock with free 2 day shipping, and go shoot up a concert, rally, or county fair this weekend if they were so inclined.

Flying planes, or building mortars or bombs would be more effective of course, but all those require some modicum of specialized knowledge and planning the average person doesn't generally possess.

On the other hand, 10 year old kids can and do shoot rifles in the US, so imagining the crazy neighbor who lives down the block going out and killing a bunch of people no longer seems quite so far fetched.

Double Edge
05 Oct 17,, 20:28
What missing in this story is motive

No statement. Nothing

Bigfella
06 Oct 17,, 09:10
Post some examples if you see any as i don't understand what the far right can exploit from this

The anti-gun lobby however is going well

This thread might provide some examples. The conspiracy theorists have got their teeth into this & are off. This stuff is all over the net already & will be creeping into Breitbart etc. soon enough (I assume Infowars has already started). Welcome to the era of just making up your own facts.

Monash
30 Oct 17,, 03:31
And it came to pass as was foretold by the ancients:


http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026159/Conspiracy-theorists-attack-Las-Vegas-massacre-survivor.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026159/Conspiracy-theorists-attack-Las-Vegas-massacre-survivor.html)

Double Edge
30 Oct 17,, 17:02
And it came to pass as was foretold by the ancients:


http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026159/Conspiracy-theorists-attack-Las-Vegas-massacre-survivor.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026159/Conspiracy-theorists-attack-Las-Vegas-massacre-survivor.html)

Like clockwork, same pattern as with Sandy Hook survivors

Usually conspiracy theories thrive when there is a lack of information. Is that really the case here ?

The only thing i don't have is a motive, otherwise everything else seems transparent

Monash
31 Oct 17,, 00:21
Yes, the problem is that the motive as such may never be discovered. If authorities have gone so far as to request a forensic dissection of the shooter's brain in search of a potential underlying organic cause then they are really clutching at straws. Despite what appear to have been exhaustive enquiries to date the motive alas remains a mystery.

And of course even if they do eventually find one it will do nothing to stop all those conspiracy 'cultists' in their tracks. I mean if you can really believe it's possible for one of the victims to 'fake' being shot in the head you are a lost cause as far as reality is concerned.

astralis
15 Feb 18,, 00:48
jesus wept. 17 kids dead today.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2018/02/14/school-shooting-reported-at-florida-high-school/

Monash
15 Feb 18,, 01:34
Condolences to the victims and their families aside is there even any point in commenting about these tragedies anymore? I mean it's basically got to the point where it's not even newsworthy unless the shooter gets to double figures. Nothing changes.

Gun Grape
15 Feb 18,, 02:01
This is the third school shooting this year. And we are only 6 weeks in.

If you go by school year there have been almost 50.

When will we get tired of it and act?

rosspoons
15 Feb 18,, 03:27
This is the third school shooting this year. And we are only 6 weeks in.

If you go by school year there have been almost 50.

When will we get tired of it and act?

Lots of people try. Those who do nothing and want to do nothing, however, win the day on this issue.

antimony
15 Feb 18,, 05:56
And like clockwork, the Breitbart outrage machine wonders why we do not just arm teachers

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/14/florida-school-shooting-time-to-arm-teachers-for-self-defense/

Monash
15 Feb 18,, 06:36
Apparently they are now. I saw a news article that said authorities on Colorado are offering 3 day 'intensive' active shooter training courses to selected teachers with a view to ensuring those schools that accept the program each have a small cadre of armed first responders. Apparently the course also covers emergency first aid.

I can see this kind of thing being rolled out across the States and promoted as the 'solution' to school shootings. Of course I can also see the proponents of this kind of thing applauding & pointing to those occasions when it works (if it works) but then going stony silent when it goes wrong.

Mihais
15 Feb 18,, 13:05
Apparently they are now. I saw a news article that said authorities on Colorado are offering 3 day 'intensive' active shooter training courses to selected teachers with a view to ensuring those schools that accept the program each have a small cadre of armed first responders. Apparently the course also covers emergency first aid.

I can see this kind of thing being rolled out across the States and promoted as the 'solution' to school shootings. Of course I can also see the proponents of this kind of thing applauding & pointing to those occasions when it works (if it works) but then going stony silent when it goes wrong.

From a LE POV,there is nothing you can do to stop these incidents,until psychos start turning to other ways of gaining their 15 minutes.What you can do is limit as much as possible this crap via proper police work.
But when that fails and the killer is on the loose there is only 1 way to end it with minimal losses.
You get a better idea,kudos to you,but I somehow doubt it.

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 16:17
And like clockwork, the Breitbart outrage machine wonders why we do not just arm teachers

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/14/florida-school-shooting-time-to-arm-teachers-for-self-defense/

No because that would be too much common sense.

These incidents always occur in places where everyone is defenseless with a few exceptions like Fort Hood.

These sociopaths rarely ever go anywhere there is a chance they can get their head blown off.

More guns is the answer not less.

You get more stories about schools shootings where "Teacher Shot him dead on site"...your going to see less and less of the massacres.

And the media is also to blame for givings these maniacs their 15 minutes of fame and glory.

Right now there is probably some other nutjob wants the notoriety that Nikolas Cruz is getting.

And I'm not even a gun owner.

Common sense is not so common.

I can guarantee anyone who is in a classroom, or has a kid in a classroom, and suddenly hears gunshots in the hallway, and had to make the decision at that very second whether or not they want to give the teacher or gun or not.

How many would say no...let the guy keep shooting...wait for the police...

Double Edge
15 Feb 18,, 16:21
Right now there is probably some other nutjob wants the notoriety that Nikolas Cruz is getting.

All started with Columbine. Guns were available before

Any idea why these killings did not happen before Columbine

astralis
15 Feb 18,, 16:26
I can guarantee anyone who is in a classroom, or has a kid in a classroom, and suddenly hears gunshots in the hallway, and had to make the decision at that very second whether or not they want to give the teacher or gun or not.

How many would say no...let the guy keep shooting...wait for the police...

i'm pretty sure a LOT of people would say no, and have the teacher do their job-- secure the classroom and prevent entry by the hostile shooter.

having sketchily-trained teachers blazing away just when the police arrive on scene, geezus christ, have you thought through the implications of what you're asking for?

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 16:31
All started with Columbine. Guns were available before

Any idea why these killings did not happen before Columbine

There are school shootings going as far back to 1966 University of Texas.

I'm not psychologist...

However, I do believe it has to do with technology. Look at the amount of media and the coverage available all over the place. Phones, computers, tablets etc...where humans are inundated with 'stimulus'. Let's face it some of these nutjobs aren't too bright, and never should have been born, and they are all too easily influenced by what they see and hear.

One death is too high, 17 is a travesty. If a teacher been armed it would have been much much less.

You don't see nutjobs walking into police stations shooting them up...because they know there are guns there...and they don't want to be shot back at.

It's really mind blowing you have to paint a picture for someone to see the obvious, and those advocating for more gun control is even more scary.

It's like advocating for more of the war on drugs..the more you make something illegal...the more you give up control over it.

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 16:36
i'm pretty sure a LOT of people would say no, and have the teacher do their job-- secure the classroom and prevent entry by the hostile shooter.

having sketchily-trained teachers blazing away just when the police arrive on scene, geezus christ, have you thought through the implications of what you're asking for?

Yes..have you?

Why haven't they secured classrooms already? Why aren't the leftist nutjobs advocating for that? I don't hear a peep out of the left for that?

Secure the classrooms...yes I'm all for that. Bulletproof glass at every school in the nation? Is that financial doable? Have you thought it through?

Teachers should have to go through rigorous gun training, and there should be an assessment. Is this Teacher competent enough to use a firearm in a life or death situation. Not every teacher will be, in fact I bet many won't but hopefully enough will be so we don't have 17 dead.

DOR
15 Feb 18,, 16:39
All started with Columbine. Guns were available before

Any idea why these killings did not happen before Columbine

According to Wikipedia, seven of the 20 deadliest shootings in the US since 1949 occured before Columbine (1999).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

Maybe it was the McClure-Volkmer Act, passed in 1986?

Double Edge
15 Feb 18,, 16:48
According to Wikipedia, seven of the 20 deadliest shootings in the US since 1949 occured before Columbine (1999).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States

Maybe it was the McClure-Volkmer Act, passed in 1986?

By Columbine i mean high school shooting, though i suppose the texas Uni in '66 also qualifies. The only one though

Does it matter school or not, ts a shooting, just as bad.

But the idea of it happening in school is what gets most people upset.

Look, how about amending gun laws so only a certain age and above can handle them ?? arguments against, anyone ?

I find your drinking laws quite stiff already, only 21 and above can drink ? is excessive from a euro pov.

astralis
15 Feb 18,, 16:49
Why haven't they secured classrooms already? Why aren't the leftist nutjobs advocating for that? I don't hear a peep out of the left for that?

here's an attempt:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

hmmm.




Secure the classrooms...yes I'm all for that. Bulletproof glass at every school in the nation? Is that financial doable? Have you thought it through?

we just passed a $1.5 trillion tax cut, so yeah, it's perfectly financially doable. it's about priorities and frankly the GOP doesn't give a sh*t about dead kids.

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 16:51
I really think as a society we should listen to what this man is saying. I only found out about Park Dietz's view through WAB some time ago when another member posted posted a video of his saying essentially the same thing.

I think this guy is spot on.

The problem is the Media wants their 'Dirty Laundry'.

As someone who despises the left, and often goes to FOX NEWS for 'news'. I was absolutely appalled when I hit Fox News yesterday, and my ENTIRE SCREEN blew up "17 dead". I'm thinking to myself,you idiots...your doing exactly what this guy wants, and making it 24/7 news. So the Media...both right and left are part of the problem.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HCu3onRusI

Ironduke
15 Feb 18,, 16:59
Clearly the solution is to force 7+ million teachers to carry guns, whether they like it or not.

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 17:22
Clearly the solution is to force 7+ million teachers to carry guns, whether they like it or not.

Agreed.

Time for Teachers (leftist) to step up and take some responsibility.

This will help them understand they only have the freedoms & liberties they do...because they are being protected by guns.

Ironduke
15 Feb 18,, 17:28
I was being sarcastic. It's the worst f-cking idea ever.

Double Edge
15 Feb 18,, 17:32
I was being sarcastic. It's the worst f-cking idea ever.

Ludicrous

But great if you make guns. which makes me wonder is this about business or rights because the two are mutually exclusive

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 17:40
here's an attempt:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

hmmm.

we just passed a $1.5 trillion tax cut, so yeah, it's perfectly financially doable. it's about priorities and frankly the GOP doesn't give a sh*t about dead kids.
And the democrats do? Why wasn't securing the classrooms implemented under the Obama administration?

Both sides are to blame. Two party Tyranny (Uni-party)...but banning guns is not the answer.

And yes...as a Trump voter...Trump is an idiot for signing that if it's true. Those with mental illnesses shouldn't be allowed to purchase firearms.

Realistically, it's not going to prevent someone from with a mental illness from getting access to a gun if that's their sole intention...they will simply steal it, or buy one illegally. What happens the majority of the time is these nutjobs take the gun from a gun owner without their knowledge...many of of these gun control laws do very little. That doesn't mean we should make it easy for them to get it, especially if they have a history of medical illness.

If Americans can find a solution like securing the classroom, and preventing deaths I'm all for it, whether or not that means guns or no guns are needed to prevent child deaths. Whatsoever can be proven to work...I will support it.

I just don't believe less guns is the answer.

Personally, I always feel better knowing there are 'good guys' around carrying guns in case something bad happens, or some nutjob comes along.

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 17:45
I was being sarcastic. It's the worst f-cking idea ever.

I know you were....I don't think you have one post in all of WAB I agree with.

It's pretty clear through all your posts that you are part of the leftist 'echo chamber' which permeates WAB.

Ironduke
15 Feb 18,, 17:51
As tragic as school shootings are, the chances of dying in a school shooting is probably close to the odds of dying in an airplane crash.

Teachers, on the other hand, they're not soldiers, and they're not cops (and we know cops have a hard enough time not shooting people unnecessarily). The introduction of 7+ million guns into an educational setting would cause far more deaths than the current rate of school shootings. Teachers shooting kids, teachers shooting teachers, kids getting ahold of a teacher's gun and shooting kids/teachers, etc.

Thousands of guns get stolen each year from even the police themselves, and yeah, I don't think things would go well where you have several million civilians possessing guns in an environment of 80 million children and young adults.

astralis
15 Feb 18,, 18:08
I just don't believe less guns is the answer.

45388

you'll need to explain then why we aren't the safest society around then given this.

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 18:21
45388

you'll need to explain then why we aren't the safest society around then given this.

For the reasons I've already laid out.

These incidents occur 99% of the time where there isn't another gun around to fire back until the police are called at which point it's too late.

How many attacks/deaths on police stations, Army Barracks, or Marine bases?

These attacks occur only at places where the victims are completely defenseless.

kato
15 Feb 18,, 18:41
you'll need to explain then why we aren't the safest society around then given this.
To put a wrench in that line of thinking: Compare the French and German numbers in that chart.

Germany at about 30%, France at about 15%. Both numbers include illegally owned weapons btw, at average estimates (20 million for Germany, 10 million for France; legal weapons are 6 million for Germany, 3 million for France). The difference though: In France 2.75 per 100,000 people, or 13.8 per 100,000 firearms die in firearms-related incidents (shot to death or committed suicide using one). In Germany the number is 1.0 per 100,000 people, or 3.15 per 100,000 firearms.

P.S.: You really don't want to live in France and its one-seventh the per-capita guns.

France 9.0 suicides + 4.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
USA 8.2 suicides + 1.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
Germany 2.9 suicides + 0.3 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms

astralis
15 Feb 18,, 19:25
kato,


To put a wrench in that line of thinking: Compare the French and German numbers in that chart.

Germany at about 30%, France at about 15%. Both numbers include illegally owned weapons btw, at average estimates (20 million for Germany, 10 million for France; legal weapons are 6 million for Germany, 3 million for France). The difference though: In France 2.75 per 100,000 people, or 13.8 per 100,000 firearms die in firearms-related incidents (shot to death or committed suicide using one). In Germany the number is 1.0 per 100,000 people, or 3.15 per 100,000 firearms.

P.S.: You really don't want to live in France and its one-seventh the per-capita guns.

France 9.0 suicides + 4.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
USA 8.2 suicides + 1.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
Germany 2.9 suicides + 0.3 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms

well, considering the absolute -number- of guns in the US...that also highly accelerates your overall chances. and moreover, if we're discussing mass shootings...

here's some more graphs.

45389

45390

US gun regulations, if anything, have decreased significantly over the last 20 years (no one is going to bring up the assault weapons ban anytime soon, for instance, and that's just the federal level). correspondingly, the number of guns in the US has increased 50% over the last twenty years.

for some reason I don't see the US as 50% safer from mass shootings.

JCT
15 Feb 18,, 19:49
I used to be starkly anti-gun control, but the last few years have caused me to rethink this position. AR-15s and their ilk are really fun to shoot, but what else are they really good for beyond killing people? The round is too light for bigger game and if you need more than a round or two when hunting, you need to spend more time on the range before you hit the woods. Yes, there are uppers with larger calibers, but again, you shouldn't need a magazine of ammo to hunt. The deer do not shoot back. An 'old style' hunting rifle should work just fine and it looks much more elegant. The AR-15 is not a particularly good weapon for home defense, even the sort barreled versions are too long for use inside the house and the rounds travel too far, even after they've hit your perp. I do not see the need for civilians to own one. If you want to shoot one, go to your local range, renting it will probably cost nothing more than buying the ammo (not positive about this - it was true for the 9mm pistol I used on the range.)

No need for bump stocks - they out to be outlawed as an illegal by-pass of the automatic weapons laws.

I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country. I'm afraid for my kids at their school - a local middle school kid was arrested for having a 'hit list'. Nothing came out of it, but the kids have passed on persistent rumors that other hit lists have been drawn up, thankfully not at their school.

We have to do something. We stopped funding local mental hospitals years ago and pushed the disturbed into the streets. Even if we went back, funded the hospitals, put the crazies into them, it wouldn't stop the crimes of passion that are enabled by too easy access to weapons that can easily kill dozens at a time. The assault rifles have to go. Automatic pistols should be heavily regulated and probably left to professional LE only. Let them be found at licensed ranges where people can get 'shoot' out. You can go to the range a lot for the cost of a $1500 AR-15. Let people keep their long rifles, revolvers, and shotguns. That will fulfill basic self-defense, sport, and recreation uses while reducing these tragedies.

Double Edge
15 Feb 18,, 20:57
To put a wrench in that line of thinking: Compare the French and German numbers in that chart.

Germany at about 30%, France at about 15%. Both numbers include illegally owned weapons btw, at average estimates (20 million for Germany, 10 million for France; legal weapons are 6 million for Germany, 3 million for France). The difference though: In France 2.75 per 100,000 people, or 13.8 per 100,000 firearms die in firearms-related incidents (shot to death or committed suicide using one). In Germany the number is 1.0 per 100,000 people, or 3.15 per 100,000 firearms.

P.S.: You really don't want to live in France and its one-seventh the per-capita guns.

France 9.0 suicides + 4.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
USA 8.2 suicides + 1.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
Germany 2.9 suicides + 0.3 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms

What surprised me about that graphic wasn't the US but the next five. NZ has more than twice the ownership of Australia.

Norway, Iceland (!) or Germany & Austria aren't countries i think of as being in the top 5 when it comes to gun ownership

Look at Israel, right at the bottom

tbm3fan
15 Feb 18,, 20:59
Clearly the solution is to force 7+ million teachers to carry guns, whether they like it or not.

With most teachers being female, especially at the elementary level, I'm sure they would all be thrilled by that. While at it the rigorous training should be in using the AR-15 in order to combat the firepower some perp brings into the school. They can lean it against their desk at the ready.

By the way I didn't know that elementary school teachers were all leftists. Did you?

tbm3fan
15 Feb 18,, 21:02
45388

you'll need to explain then why we aren't the safest society around then given this.

Teacher, teacher call on me I know the answer. It is because we don't have enough guns. We need everybody to carry an AR-15 daily.

Double Edge
15 Feb 18,, 21:03
I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country.
No, it does not even happen there. What took place here does not occur anywhere in the world. A high school kid shooting up his school.

Think of Beslan or Peshawar those were militants attacking a school. That you don't get in the US and likely never will

tbm3fan
15 Feb 18,, 21:09
To put a wrench in that line of thinking: Compare the French and German numbers in that chart.

Germany at about 30%, France at about 15%. Both numbers include illegally owned weapons btw, at average estimates (20 million for Germany, 10 million for France; legal weapons are 6 million for Germany, 3 million for France). The difference though: In France 2.75 per 100,000 people, or 13.8 per 100,000 firearms die in firearms-related incidents (shot to death or committed suicide using one). In Germany the number is 1.0 per 100,000 people, or 3.15 per 100,000 firearms.

P.S.: You really don't want to live in France and its one-seventh the per-capita guns.

France 9.0 suicides + 4.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
USA 8.2 suicides + 1.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
Germany 2.9 suicides + 0.3 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms

So France is just an outlier. I guess being leftist and drinking Bordeaux is a bad combination?

tbm3fan
15 Feb 18,, 21:16
I used to be starkly anti-gun control, but the last few years have caused me to rethink this position. AR-15s and their ilk are really fun to shoot, but what else are they really good for beyond killing people? The round is too light for bigger game and if you need more than a round or two when hunting, you need to spend more time on the range before you hit the woods. Yes, there are uppers with larger calibers, but again, you shouldn't need a magazine of ammo to hunt. The deer do not shoot back. An 'old style' hunting rifle should work just fine and it looks much more elegant. The AR-15 is not a particularly good weapon for home defense, even the sort barreled versions are too long for use inside the house and the rounds travel too far, even after they've hit your perp. I do not see the need for civilians to own one. If you want to shoot one, go to your local range, renting it will probably cost nothing more than buying the ammo (not positive about this - it was true for the 9mm pistol I used on the range.)

No need for bump stocks - they out to be outlawed as an illegal by-pass of the automatic weapons laws.

I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country. I'm afraid for my kids at their school - a local middle school kid was arrested for having a 'hit list'. Nothing came out of it, but the kids have passed on persistent rumors that other hit lists have been drawn up, thankfully not at their school.

We have to do something. We stopped funding local mental hospitals years ago and pushed the disturbed into the streets. Even if we went back, funded the hospitals, put the crazies into them, it wouldn't stop the crimes of passion that are enabled by too easy access to weapons that can easily kill dozens at a time. The assault rifles have to go. Automatic pistols should be heavily regulated and probably left to professional LE only. Let them be found at licensed ranges where people can get 'shoot' out. You can go to the range a lot for the cost of a $1500 AR-15. Let people keep their long rifles, revolvers, and shotguns. That will fulfill basic self-defense, sport, and recreation uses while reducing these tragedies.

Spot on. Only problem is that too many feel that their 2nd Amendment Right, owning an AR-15, trumps the life of a child or 100 children. It is someone else's agony.

astralis
15 Feb 18,, 22:09
And yes...as a Trump voter...Trump is an idiot for signing that if it's true. Those with mental illnesses shouldn't be allowed to purchase firearms.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/374103-trump-budget-would-cut-millions-in-school-safety-funds-report


President Trump’s proposed 2019 budget would cut millions of dollars from federal education programs designed to help school districts improve safety and provide mental health assistance in the event of a tragedy.

The budget proposal, which was unveiled earlier this week by the White House, would reduce funding for national school safety activities by $25 million compared to 2017, Politico reported.

That reduction would include the elimination of “project prevention grants,” which have helped schools across the country fund conflict resolution programs, prevent bullying and pay for mental health assistance for students.

Politico reports the budget would also cut the $1 million in funding for the School Emergency Response to Violence (SERV) program, which has previously provided millions in funding to the school district in Newtown, Conn., following the 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

SteveDaPirate
15 Feb 18,, 22:24
Teachers should have to go through rigorous gun training, and there should be an assessment. Is this Teacher competent enough to use a firearm in a life or death situation. Not every teacher will be, in fact I bet many won't but hopefully enough will be so we don't have 17 dead.

Not a bad idea, but instead of singling out Teachers or any other non-LEO profession, why not just apply that standard to anyone who wishes to own a firearm instead?

We make people demonstrate they can meet a minimum standard of competence before they are allowed to get behind the wheel of a vehicle, or fly an airplane, or operate heavy machinery. As someone that owns a number of firearms and shoots regularly, I have no issue at all with requiring a little demonstration of personal responsibility and at least a modicum of competence before someone is allowed operate dangerous equipment of any kind, guns included.

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 23:08
Not a bad idea, but instead of singling out Teachers or any other non-LEO profession, why not just apply that standard to anyone who wishes to own a firearm instead?

We make people demonstrate they can meet a minimum standard of competence before they are allowed to get behind the wheel of a vehicle, or fly an airplane, or operate heavy machinery. As someone that owns a number of firearms and shoots regularly, I have no issue at all with requiring a little demonstration of personal responsibility and at least a modicum of competence before someone is allowed operate dangerous equipment of any kind, guns included.

Agreed! And more than just proficiency..there should be a judgement/mental litmus test as what a person would and would not do in certain situations, or stressful situations.

I get the worry from the lefties that more guns is rife for abuses, and things can go bad..real bad.

There needs to be common sense, and good judgement applied to those who own and carry fire-arms publicly for the protection of the public in the event of a serious or life threatening emergency.

I'm sure Airline pilots are tested/trained for what they would do, and not do in an emergency situation.

antimony
15 Feb 18,, 23:13
No because that would be too much common sense.

These incidents always occur in places where everyone is defenseless with a few exceptions like Fort Hood.

These sociopaths rarely ever go anywhere there is a chance they can get their head blown off.

More guns is the answer not less.

You get more stories about schools shootings where "Teacher Shot him dead on site"...your going to see less and less of the massacres.

And the media is also to blame for givings these maniacs their 15 minutes of fame and glory.

Right now there is probably some other nutjob wants the notoriety that Nikolas Cruz is getting.

And I'm not even a gun owner.

Common sense is not so common.

I can guarantee anyone who is in a classroom, or has a kid in a classroom, and suddenly hears gunshots in the hallway, and had to make the decision at that very second whether or not they want to give the teacher or gun or not.

How many would say no...let the guy keep shooting...wait for the police...

Are you saying having armed teachers would solve this problem? Help me understand this a little better - are the teachers allowed to have guns or required to have guns?

InfiniteDreams
15 Feb 18,, 23:59
Are you saying having armed teachers would solve this problem? Help me understand this a little better - are the teachers allowed to have guns or required to have guns?

I'm certainly not advocating someone who does not want to carry and use a firearm be forced to do so.

Teachers should not be 'forced' into this role if they are uncomfortable with it.

However, those that do want to take up the cause and volunteer, and can also prove themselves proficient (with training & testing), and of sound judgement by all means let them.

zraver
16 Feb 18,, 02:18
i'm pretty sure a LOT of people would say no, and have the teacher do their job-- secure the classroom and prevent entry by the hostile shooter.

Yup that should be the first job, but defending people is easier if you have the right tool for the job.


having sketchily-trained teachers blazing away just when the police arrive on scene, geezus christ, have you thought through the implications of what you're asking for?

Find volunteers, train them to not be sketchy, maybe make them reserve officers. In all the mass shootings, there is only one that I know of had the shooter taking fire and continuing on. The idea of arming teachers isn't to have a gun fight in a crowded hall (though it couldn't be worse than whats already happening), its to deter the killer by making the target hard instead of soft.

antimony
16 Feb 18,, 03:16
I'm certainly not advocating someone who does not want to carry and use a firearm be forced to do so.

Teachers should not be 'forced' into this role if they are uncomfortable with it.

However, those that do want to take up the cause and volunteer, and can also prove themselves proficient (with training & testing), and of sound judgement by all means let them.

Several issues

1. What about schools where no one volunteers? It is not only about being comfortable in handling weapons and being proficient in them. It is also being the first responder and the armed guard in cases like this and that is a lot of responsibility, in addition to teaching. I can see that happen in my schools within our local communities.

2. Are we saying that we will provide LEO level training for volunteers? That would mean that volunteers need to be physically proficient and be trained to handle myriad active shooter scenarios, including hostage handling. WHat hapens when volunteers cannot prove themselves proficient in these kind of training situations. Do they still get to be the armed guard?

3. If I know that certain teachers are armed and I am an active shooter, I will go after them first. Hell, a bunch of rough kids can jump any such teacher to get the gun off him to sell it off. Concealed carry holders are taught to be extra vigilant at all times. This will be like walking on a knife's edge, afraid of all shadows.

4. What happens when a shooting accident happens? who pays for the damages, the teacher or the school district?

Now if you advocate for armed guards, whose job it is to patrol the school and remain vigilant at all times, I can see that making some sense.

zraver
16 Feb 18,, 03:57
Several issues

1. What about schools where no one volunteers? It is not only about being comfortable in handling weapons and being proficient in them. It is also being the first responder and the armed guard in cases like this and that is a lot of responsibility, in addition to teaching. I can see that happen in my schools within our local communities.

Just like air marshals you don't know who is armed... maybe its the math teacher, maybe its the janitor you just never know.


2. Are we saying that we will provide LEO level training for volunteers? That would mean that volunteers need to be physically proficient and be trained to handle myriad active shooter scenarios, including hostage handling. WHat hapens when volunteers cannot prove themselves proficient in these kind of training situations. Do they still get to be the armed guard?

No, the idea is not to make them a reaction force, but to harden and defend the space where they are. By carrying concealed you harden the target. Retrofit outwardly opening doors with locks and bullet resistant glass to class rooms locked entry ways.


3. If I know that certain teachers are armed and I am an active shooter, I will go after them first. Hell, a bunch of rough kids can jump any such teacher to get the gun off him to sell it off. Concealed carry holders are taught to be extra vigilant at all times. This will be like walking on a knife's edge, afraid of all shadows.

Nope, in the history of mass shootings there is only one example of a shooter engaging with security at the start of an attack. Teachers are already targeted off the bat.


4. What happens when a shooting accident happens? who pays for the damages, the teacher or the school district?

If no laws were broken, the school, district no different than any other case of accidental injury.


Now if you advocate for armed guards, whose job it is to patrol the school and remain vigilant at all times, I can see that making some sense.

Its a matter of cost. You can equip and train and teacher for $1000 a year. A decent security guard would cost north of $60K for one person.

zraver
16 Feb 18,, 04:23
you'll need to explain then why we aren't the safest society around then given this.

The group that has the most guns (white males) is on a per capita basis under-represented in every category of murder despite having more guns than any other identifiable population on the planet. The group most likely to commit gun violence is the least likely to have them legally (minority male juveniles). Murder is a heart problem, how many guns would you need to own before you turned into a killer? I'm guessing there isn't a number becuase yuor heart isn't bent on killing. In Nice France a jihadi used a truck to kill 86. Do you propose we ban cargo vans?

Goatboy
16 Feb 18,, 05:12
Teachers should not be 'forced' into this role if they are uncomfortable with it.

However, those that do want to take up the cause and volunteer, and can also prove themselves proficient (with training & testing), and of sound judgement by all means let them.



My son's teacher will not bring a gun into the classroom. I do not care how "comfortable" he is with a pistol or not, nor how adamant a protector of the 2st Amendment he is.

kato
16 Feb 18,, 05:24
Norway, Iceland (!) or Germany & Austria are countries i think of as being in the top 5 when it comes to gun ownership
In Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, to a lesser extent Denmark) there's a very strong culture of hunters which own almost all legal weapons - typically close to 10% of the population are registered hunters who own 2-3 weapons each.

In Central European countries you have this same hunting culture only in rural areas, which typically comes out to around 1.0-1.5% registered hunters in the overall population depending on how urbanized the country is; in these countries hunters typically only hold one-third of legal firearms at most. Gun ownership then tends to vary widely within the country between urban and rural areas - in Germany this goes from 1.3 firearms per 100 people in Berlin to 9.5 firearms per 100 people in Rhineland-Palatinate (i.e. over 7 times as many).
In these countries however you also usually have a relatively large proportion of either sports shooters or "home defense" people who bring the number of households with firearms up by another 10-15% - it's mostly just how it's designated that changes with local law, ownership numbers are independent of that. Most European Union countries therefore end up at around 12-16% of households legally holding weapons pretty much across the board unless local firearms laws are particularly restrictive (e.g. UK, Netherlands).


If Americans can find a solution like securing the classroom, and preventing deaths I'm all for it, whether or not that means guns or no guns are needed to prevent child deaths.
The practical solution with regard to school shootings over here has always been to have teachers lock doors and move the kids and themselves out of the firing line while keeping them under control. Remove the targets from the target-rich environment. That's from experience from some of the first school shootings over here - before WW1 - in which there were e.g. kids evacuated out of the building (only for the shooter to find a window and randomly fire in the schoolyard) and in one case a fleeing girl e.g. tripped and broke her neck falling down some stairs, whereas in the same incidents teachers who kept their classes locked up in their rooms and under control brought them through the situation just fine even with the shooter trying to break into the rooms.

There was one case where that didn't work - in the 60s - but that one involved a former soldier with a flamethrower and a lance who fired through two open windows into classrooms and then stabbed those fleeing out of the building.


As someone that owns a number of firearms and shoots regularly, I have no issue at all with requiring a little demonstration of personal responsibility and at least a modicum of competence before someone is allowed operate dangerous equipment of any kind, guns included.
Beyond operation: I am personally of the opinion that the low number of suicides using firearms in Germany - one-third the numbers per firearm in the US or France - is mostly a result of the relatively tight laws on gun storage here. More than any other factor at least.

Goatboy
16 Feb 18,, 06:14
I used to be starkly anti-gun control, but the last few years have caused me to rethink this position. AR-15s and their ilk are really fun to shoot, but what else are they really good for beyond killing people? The round is too light for bigger game and if you need more than a round or two when hunting, you need to spend more time on the range before you hit the woods. Yes, there are uppers with larger calibers, but again, you shouldn't need a magazine of ammo to hunt. The deer do not shoot back. An 'old style' hunting rifle should work just fine and it looks much more elegant. The AR-15 is not a particularly good weapon for home defense, even the sort barreled versions are too long for use inside the house and the rounds travel too far, even after they've hit your perp. I do not see the need for civilians to own one. If you want to shoot one, go to your local range, renting it will probably cost nothing more than buying the ammo (not positive about this - it was true for the 9mm pistol I used on the range.)

No need for bump stocks - they out to be outlawed as an illegal by-pass of the automatic weapons laws.

I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country. I'm afraid for my kids at their school - a local middle school kid was arrested for having a 'hit list'. Nothing came out of it, but the kids have passed on persistent rumors that other hit lists have been drawn up, thankfully not at their school.

We have to do something. We stopped funding local mental hospitals years ago and pushed the disturbed into the streets. Even if we went back, funded the hospitals, put the crazies into them, it wouldn't stop the crimes of passion that are enabled by too easy access to weapons that can easily kill dozens at a time. The assault rifles have to go. Automatic pistols should be heavily regulated and probably left to professional LE only. Let them be found at licensed ranges where people can get 'shoot' out. You can go to the range a lot for the cost of a $1500 AR-15. Let people keep their long rifles, revolvers, and shotguns. That will fulfill basic self-defense, sport, and recreation uses while reducing these tragedies.

I completely agree

Goatboy
16 Feb 18,, 06:30
The practical solution with regard to school shootings over here has always been to have teachers lock doors and move the kids and themselves out of the firing line while keeping them under control. Remove the targets from the target-rich environment. That's from experience from some of the first school shootings over here - before WW1 - in which there were e.g. kids evacuated out of the building (only for the shooter to find a window and randomly fire in the schoolyard) and in one case a fleeing girl e.g. tripped and broke her neck falling down some stairs, whereas in the same incidents teachers who kept their classes locked up in their rooms and under control brought them through the situation just fine even with the shooter trying to break into the rooms.

There was one case where that didn't work - in the 60s - but that one involved a former soldier with a flamethrower and a lance who fired through two open windows into classrooms and then stabbed those fleeing out of the building.


Beyond operation: I am personally of the opinion that the low number of suicides using firearms in Germany - one-third the numbers per firearm in the US or France - is mostly a result of the relatively tight laws on gun storage here. More than any other factor at least.



If you spoke and qualified these sentiments at an NRA convention, I'd attend, and that'd be the only way I'd attend. Unfortunately, in my country growth and insight on this issue is woefully lacking.

tbm3fan
16 Feb 18,, 06:30
Find volunteers, train them to not be sketchy, maybe make them reserve officers. In all the mass shootings, there is only one that I know of had the shooter taking fire and continuing on. The idea of arming teachers isn't to have a gun fight in a crowded hall (though it couldn't be worse than whats already happening), its to deter the killer by making the target hard instead of soft.

There are some ludicrous ideas out there but this one tops them all. No surprise. Obviously you don't know a LOT of teachers. Yet I suppose you have done a poll asking how many of them would be comfortable carrying a gun. My poll, based on my association with dozens of teachers from grade 1 to grade 12, would be a resounding no. Yep, my little 60 year old Japanese teacher, who teaches Japanese in high school, can't wait to carry. My newly hired 25 year old in her first job teaching 3rg graders is thrilled to carry.

Volunteers? You're kidding right? By the time one thoroughly vetted these volunteers you would be left with few. Their mental status would be the first thing that concerns me and their desire to carry a gun as a volunteer. Besides, I've seen big talk from those who aspire to be volunteers. In the end it was just that big talk wanna bees. Anyone who was able body and thoroughly qualified would no doubt have a job elsewhere.

antimony
16 Feb 18,, 06:53
Just like air marshals you don't know who is armed... maybe its the math teacher, maybe its the janitor you just never know.


Does not work. I may meet an Air marshall once in a flight. If I am a student I live, study and work with them 8 hours a day or more. With a few hundred snooping eyes around, not only will students know who these teachers are, they will instagram the exact moment there is an accidental exposure.



No, the idea is not to make them a reaction force, but to harden and defend the space where they are. By carrying concealed you harden the target. Retrofit outwardly opening doors with locks and bullet resistant glass to class rooms locked entry ways.


The armed shooter, who is a student/teacher/school district official/school employee, conceal carries inside the school. He gets inside the class, shoots the teacher for good measure, closes the door and starts spraying. Please "harden and defend" this situation.



Nope, in the history of mass shootings there is only one example of a shooter engaging with security at the start of an attack. Teachers are already targeted off the bat.


Wishful thinking much? You are a miitary man, why is it difficult for you to envisage that shooters will take care of the armed folks first? What would you do if you were to attack an armed compound? Also, kids have killed over a pair of shoes, and you are telling me that they would stay off a much more expensive item.

Also, no teacher volunteered. your move.



If no laws were broken, the school, district no different than any other case of accidental injury.


Tell that to the teacher, who is now broke while paying legal fees.



Its a matter of cost. You can equip and train and teacher for $1000 a year. A decent security guard would cost north of $60K for one person.

A decent, reliable concealed carry weapon, will be around 500. I would expect at least 4 training sessions a year. Each of those cost anything between 300-500. We are already talking at least 2500 per armed schol employee. I would expect at least 4 per school, given they are not dedicated to the task.

Let's put it on a refrendum and see who wins. I know how folks in my school district will vote.

antimony
16 Feb 18,, 06:57
I used to be starkly anti-gun control, but the last few years have caused me to rethink this position. AR-15s and their ilk are really fun to shoot, but what else are they really good for beyond killing people? The round is too light for bigger game and if you need more than a round or two when hunting, you need to spend more time on the range before you hit the woods. Yes, there are uppers with larger calibers, but again, you shouldn't need a magazine of ammo to hunt. The deer do not shoot back. An 'old style' hunting rifle should work just fine and it looks much more elegant. The AR-15 is not a particularly good weapon for home defense, even the sort barreled versions are too long for use inside the house and the rounds travel too far, even after they've hit your perp. I do not see the need for civilians to own one. If you want to shoot one, go to your local range, renting it will probably cost nothing more than buying the ammo (not positive about this - it was true for the 9mm pistol I used on the range.)

No need for bump stocks - they out to be outlawed as an illegal by-pass of the automatic weapons laws.

I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country. I'm afraid for my kids at their school - a local middle school kid was arrested for having a 'hit list'. Nothing came out of it, but the kids have passed on persistent rumors that other hit lists have been drawn up, thankfully not at their school.

We have to do something. We stopped funding local mental hospitals years ago and pushed the disturbed into the streets. Even if we went back, funded the hospitals, put the crazies into them, it wouldn't stop the crimes of passion that are enabled by too easy access to weapons that can easily kill dozens at a time. The assault rifles have to go. Automatic pistols should be heavily regulated and probably left to professional LE only. Let them be found at licensed ranges where people can get 'shoot' out. You can go to the range a lot for the cost of a $1500 AR-15. Let people keep their long rifles, revolvers, and shotguns. That will fulfill basic self-defense, sport, and recreation uses while reducing these tragedies.

Great post and as a gun owner/enthusiast/ collector, I concur. I get the fun part of guns and I suspect that a lot o people quoting the 2A basically want to protect their hobbies. I would go a step further. None of this assault weapon bullshit; ban all semi auto rifles, period. I would have to give up my AR and AK, which would be ok if that can buy my kids safety.

antimony
16 Feb 18,, 07:02
The group that has the most guns (white males) is on a per capita basis under-represented in every category of murder despite having more guns than any other identifiable population on the planet. The group most likely to commit gun violence is the least likely to have them legally (minority male juveniles). Murder is a heart problem, how many guns would you need to own before you turned into a killer? I'm guessing there isn't a number becuase yuor heart isn't bent on killing. In Nice France a jihadi used a truck to kill 86. Do you propose we ban cargo vans?

Since you want to go all race and minority, the group that has the most guns (white males) is overly represented in mass shootings, especially school shootings. They are also more likely to run around trees wearing funny clothes. Coincidence?

astralis
16 Feb 18,, 14:38
The group that has the most guns (white males) is on a per capita basis under-represented in every category of murder despite having more guns than any other identifiable population on the planet. The group most likely to commit gun violence is the least likely to have them legally (minority male juveniles). Murder is a heart problem, how many guns would you need to own before you turned into a killer? I'm guessing there isn't a number becuase yuor heart isn't bent on killing. In Nice France a jihadi used a truck to kill 86. Do you propose we ban cargo vans?

that still doesn't answer my question, though.

if "an armed society makes a polite society", and having guns deters murders and crimes, how is it that the country with the highest level of gun ownership and most number of guns isn't the safest society?

the whole point of this arm-a-teacher idea is that by the mere presence of guns, the evil-doer will be at least partially deterred. why is this not working for society as a whole?

WABs_OOE
16 Feb 18,, 15:23
Great post and as a gun owner/enthusiast/ collector, I concur. I get the fun part of guns and I suspect that a lot o people quoting the 2A basically want to protect their hobbies. I would go a step further. None of this assault weapon bullshit; ban all semi auto rifles, period. I would have to give up my AR and AK, which would be ok if that can buy my kids safety.fG4wNhVaAfc

WABs_OOE
16 Feb 18,, 15:35
https://www.google.ca/search?q=molotov+cocktail+attacks

Double Edge
16 Feb 18,, 16:40
In Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, to a lesser extent Denmark) there's a very strong culture of hunters which own almost all legal weapons - typically close to 10% of the population are registered hunters who own 2-3 weapons each.

In Central European countries you have this same hunting culture only in rural areas, which typically comes out to around 1.0-1.5% registered hunters in the overall population depending on how urbanized the country is; in these countries hunters typically only hold one-third of legal firearms at most. Gun ownership then tends to vary widely within the country between urban and rural areas - in Germany this goes from 1.3 firearms per 100 people in Berlin to 9.5 firearms per 100 people in Rhineland-Palatinate (i.e. over 7 times as many).
In these countries however you also usually have a relatively large proportion of either sports shooters or "home defense" people who bring the number of households with firearms up by another 10-15% - it's mostly just how it's designated that changes with local law, ownership numbers are independent of that. Most European Union countries therefore end up at around 12-16% of households legally holding weapons pretty much across the board unless local firearms laws are particularly restrictive (e.g. UK, Netherlands).
yeah, hunters would explain it, even for Canada

Nothing to hunt in the desert, in Israel. lol

Gun Grape
16 Feb 18,, 19:36
Imagine how much worse it could have been if the GOPs gun suppressor bill was law.

citanon
16 Feb 18,, 21:17
that still doesn't answer my question, though.

if "an armed society makes a polite society", and having guns deters murders and crimes, how is it that the country with the highest level of gun ownership and most number of guns isn't the safest society?

the whole point of this arm-a-teacher idea is that by the mere presence of guns, the evil-doer will be at least partially deterred. why is this not working for society as a whole?

Soft targets for mass killers should have proper security. If teachers volunteer to provide that, they should be given the proper vetting, training and equipment, but the right procedures wrt storing and securing the weapons need to be worked out.

antimony
16 Feb 18,, 21:22
fG4wNhVaAfc

Usain Bolt can run circles around me while Micheal Phelps probably swims faster than I can run. Giving examples of professionals proves absolutely nothing. I hope you are not trying to say that every random dude who picks up a gun becomes a proficient shooter without hours of practice and a fortune spent in practice ammo.

citanon
16 Feb 18,, 21:24
Imagine how much worse it could have been if the GOPs gun suppressor bill was law.

How would it have been worse? A suppressed ar-15 with supersonic rounds is going to crack at 130 dB.

antimony
16 Feb 18,, 21:27
https://www.google.ca/search?q=molotov+cocktail+attacks

Again, wrong example. Operating a gun is comparatively far easier and safer compared to a rudimentary and self-concocted explosive device. It is highly possible that any such device blows up in the face of the perp (something that I am A-ok with). I used to make firecrackers (more stable than a lighted wick in a bottle of petrol) for Diwali, and quite a few of our creations blew up unexpectedly. My friends mom suffered serious hand burns from using one of our home made creations. So, not cutting it.

antimony
16 Feb 18,, 21:28
How would it have been worse? A suppressed ar-15 with supersonic rounds is going to crack at 130 dB.

I can think of several scenarios in my local elementary school where this can wreak havoc and gives me a cold sweat to think about it.

citanon
16 Feb 18,, 21:37
Usain Bolt can run circles around me while Micheal Phelps probably swims faster than I can run. Giving examples of professionals proves absolutely nothing. I hope you are not trying to say that every random dude who picks up a gun becomes a proficient shooter without hours of practice and a fortune spent in practice ammo.

A random dude picking up a kitchen knife could cause mass casualties:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–12)

Or hammer:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/12/illegal-immigrant-found-guilty-in-murder-family-five-in-san-francisco.html

Or random tools found around the house:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/28/asia-pacific/crime-legal-asia-pacific/chinese-man-sentenced-death-killing-parents-17-others/#.WodNK5-IbZ8

Or with trucks:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack

In fact in Xinjiang now Uhigurs have to register their kitchen knifes.

https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/tools-01132017161348.html

Among other "terrific" steps aimed at "solving" the problem:


https://youtu.be/OQ5LnY21Hgc

Before we fall over ourselves to point our fingers at the tools and restrict the freedoms of law abiding citizens, how about we try to identify and actually address problems with the humans wielding them?

In fact, we can start with actually enforcing and utilizing our existing laws!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting/fbi-admits-failure-to-act-on-florida-school-gunman-draws-anger-idUSKCN1G00T7

A mechanism was in place to take this guys guns away and monitor him. It was activated by a tipster. No action was taken by the FBI.

The school officials knew about the threat. The community knew about the threat. The guy was expelled because of the threat he posed. Yet no one informed local law enforcement.

The one phone call that could have stopped this guy happened and yet the FBI dropped the ball. The second phone call to local police could have stopped this bit it never happened despite dozens of hundreds knowing about the threat.

The FBI failed, the school failed, and the community failed.

At the same time we saw in Washington State what happens when a family member and the community takes proactive action:

https://www.thecut.com/2018/02/grandmother-stops-teen-allegedly-planning-a-school-shooting.html

American media loves to externalize the threat when it comes to violence. If we can blame guns instead of humans we feel better and the problem feels more tractable. In the wake of tragedy we like to diffuse responsibility by pointing at big amorphous impersonal strawmen instead of looking too closely at what happened in an already traumatized community.

But if we want to reduce the actual threat, we have to take a painful look within, examine the lessons learned and get serious about detection and prevention.

Ironduke
16 Feb 18,, 22:01
Unfortunately, FBI is too busy prioritizing using an inordinate amount of money, manpower, and resources in its never-ending quest for patsies to set up in counter-terrorism "stings", a side effect of which is that stuff like this slips through the cracks.

JCT
16 Feb 18,, 22:10
No, it does not even happen there. What took place here does not occur anywhere in the world. A high school kid shooting up his school.

Think of Beslan or Peshawar those were militants attacking a school. That you don't get in the US and likely never will

I did not mean to insult and I spoke with an overly broad brush, so my apologies.

antimony
16 Feb 18,, 22:14
A random dude picking up a kitchen knife could cause mass casualties:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–12)


A random dude? This was a series of events which resulted in a sum total of 25 deaths. How many would that have been if these psychos had semi-auto weapons?



Or hammer:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/12/illegal-immigrant-found-guilty-in-murder-family-five-in-san-francisco.html


So a robbery gone bad is a mass murder now?



Or random tools found around the house:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/07/28/asia-pacific/crime-legal-asia-pacific/chinese-man-sentenced-death-killing-parents-17-others/#.WodNK5-IbZ8


Whats the random tool used?



Or with trucks:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack


Are you willing to bring purchase of guns under the same rigor that we do for purchase of guns?



In fact in Xinjiang now Uhigurs have to register their kitchen knifes.

https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/tools-01132017161348.html

Among other "terrific" steps aimed at "solving" the problem:


https://youtu.be/OQ5LnY21Hgc


Where did i mention registering guns? Go ahead and show me.




Before we fall over ourselves to point our fingers at the tools and restrict the freedoms of law abiding citizens, how about we try to actually address problems with the humans wielding them?

In fact, we can start with actually enforcing and utilizing our existing laws!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting/fbi-admits-failure-to-act-on-florida-school-gunman-draws-anger-idUSKCN1G00T7

Yes, lets!!!

Let the FBI follow up every random joke and schoolyard threat to its logical place, and every broken child in every foster or mental home and bring them to their logical destination, the high security prison. But lets not do anyting about background checks.

Let us also conveniently ignore the fact that Trump did away with a rule that would have given the NICS system access to mental health records and would therefore have stopped many people with mental health issues from bying guns.

Also lets look at the statistics of your "mass murder", which I assumed you spent time in pulling together : 5+ 17 + 25. How many gun deaths happened in 2018 alone?

JCT
16 Feb 18,, 22:17
I do not necessarily believe that giving teachers guns is the right thing to do. One accident and the school will be buried in legal bills that will come straight out of our kids education.

Putting a LE officer in a school is a step forward, but expensive.

Hardening the schools is another option. Someone mentioned this. A few years ago our local schools were very open, you could walk in through any number of ways. We have open-style campuses with breezeways connecting every building. Now iron fences close the gaps between buildings and the only way in is through the front admin office. You used to be able to just walk into the office, now you have to get buzzed into the office through what amounts to one way mirrors, ie they can see you pretty easy but its harder to see in. Not perfect, expensive, but it helps. The admins have to be alert and not automatically buzz someone in, but it's their necks too.

astralis
16 Feb 18,, 22:40
it's true that humans can mass murder with knives and with molotov cocktails or whatever is most convenient.

it just turns out that in the US, mass murderers tend to pick the AR-15 because it is most convenient, easily gotten, and quite effective with little training.

there's a reason why mass killings happen so frequently in the US compared to elsewhere.

citanon
16 Feb 18,, 22:53
I do not necessarily believe that giving teachers guns is the right thing to do. One accident and the school will be buried in legal bills that will come straight out of our kids education.

Putting a LE officer in a school is a step forward, but expensive.

Hardening the schools is another option. Someone mentioned this. A few years ago our local schools were very open, you could walk in through any number of ways. We have open-style campuses with breezeways connecting every building. Now iron fences close the gaps between buildings and the only way in is through the front admin office. You used to be able to just walk into the office, now you have to get buzzed into the office through what amounts to one way mirrors, ie they can see you pretty easy but its harder to see in. Not perfect, expensive, but it helps. The admins have to be alert and not automatically buzz someone in, but it's their necks too.

I think if a teacher or administrator were to be armed he/she would need to be trained to at least the level of a reserve LEO, there would have to be more than one at the school, and careful procedures would have to be worked out regarding storage of the firearms and coordination with law enforcement.

A lot of details to work through but maybe worth it if a community was willing.

WABs_OOE
16 Feb 18,, 23:00
Usain Bolt can run circles around me while Micheal Phelps probably swims faster than I can run. Giving examples of professionals proves absolutely nothing. I hope you are not trying to say that every random dude who picks up a gun becomes a proficient shooter without hours of practice and a fortune spent in practice ammo.What are you talking about? How many hours of practice do you need with a .3030 or .223? Or even a .22short? And you know what is scary about lever and bolt actions, far more than automatics? It forces you to make the shot instead of taking the shot. Hell, we don't use handheld autos for the very fact that you can't control the climb. No such thing with lever or bolt actions.


Again, wrong example. Operating a gun is comparatively far easier and safer compared to a rudimentary and self-concocted explosive device. It is highly possible that any such device blows up in the face of the perp (something that I am A-ok with). I used to make firecrackers (more stable than a lighted wick in a bottle of petrol) for Diwali, and quite a few of our creations blew up unexpectedly. My friends mom suffered serious hand burns from using one of our home made creations. So, not cutting it.Are you joking me? We have over 200 million Americans who can fill up a gas tank and can get it anywhere in the US. In fact, that is one of the ways that scares the hell out of me. It doesn't take brains to spill gas and light it. The only thing stopping its spread is the lack of the cool factor.

I like Kato's suggestion. All classrooms have firedoors. They can take a hell of a lot of punishment. Locked and the AR-15 ain't getting through to do harm. What scares me is what the idiot can do with gasoline.

astralis
16 Feb 18,, 23:12
OK...so where are all the regular mass murders by fire across the world?

Gun Grape
16 Feb 18,, 23:25
How would it have been worse? A suppressed ar-15 with supersonic rounds is going to crack at 130 dB.

which is a whole lot quieter than unsuppressed .223/5.56 at 157db. Remember every 3db = a doubling of the loudness to the ear. And 30/50 feet down the hall in a classroom its not going to sound like a gunshot at all.

The quicker the noise can be identified, the more response time to lock doors get kids out.

WABs_OOE
16 Feb 18,, 23:27
OK...so where are all the regular mass murders by fire across the world?IEDs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And this goes to my point. You are all looking at the symptons, not the disease. Getting rid of firearms would not have cured this kid of his murder rage. He was just too stupid to find something more effective.

AK47s were ineffective against US troops and the insurgents switched something else that was effective and their associated cool factor rose. Getting rid of automatic firearms would only increase the cool factor of other lethal means, not stop the desire to murder.

Edit: I will give you a big one. 11 September.

Gun Grape
16 Feb 18,, 23:32
Soft targets for mass killers should have proper security. If teachers volunteer to provide that, they should be given the proper vetting, training and equipment, but the right procedures wrt storing and securing the weapons need to be worked out.

And even the cops haven't figured that out yet.

Feb. 5: Harmony Learning Center in Maplewood, Minnesota . A 3d graded discharged a police officers holstered firearm.


And what level of training would the armed teachers get. Basic marksmanship. (stay in your classroom protect your class and if the shooter enters engage) Or do you train them to HRT standards where they are to engage a shooter in say the cafeteria with lots of kids running in the line of fire?

Gun Grape
16 Feb 18,, 23:45
What are you talking about? How many hours of practice do you need with a .3030 or .223? Or even a .22short? And you know what is scary about lever and bolt actions, far more than automatics? It forces you to make the shot instead of taking the shot. Hell, we don't use handheld autos for the very fact that you can't control the climb. No such thing with lever or bolt actions.

How many rounds does that tube fed lever action hold? or the bolt action rifle? Compare the time difference in reloading one of those and changing a 30 round magazine.


What scares me is what the idiot can do with gasoline.

Not much once the fire system is activated. Killed many in the Daegu Subway. But that was a tightly restricted area with lots of people, restricted egress and no fire suppression/fire extinguishers. Commercial buildings especially schools would be a lot different

zraver
17 Feb 18,, 00:09
that still doesn't answer my question, though.

if "an armed society makes a polite society", and having guns deters murders and crimes, how is it that the country with the highest level of gun ownership and most number of guns isn't the safest society?

the whole point of this arm-a-teacher idea is that by the mere presence of guns, the evil-doer will be at least partially deterred. why is this not working for society as a whole?

It is working though, look where the mass shootings are occuring, where the law says society doesn't have to be polite.

zraver
17 Feb 18,, 00:11
Since you want to go all race and minority, the group that has the most guns (white males) is overly represented in mass shootings, especially school shootings. They are also more likely to run around trees wearing funny clothes. Coincidence?

Actually no. White males make up over 70% of the male population but are only about half of mass shooters. This despite being the group with the most guns.

WABs_OOE
17 Feb 18,, 00:12
How many rounds does that tube fed lever action hold? or the bolt action rifle? Compare the time difference in reloading one of those and changing a 30 round magazine.GS,

Antimony was discussing about getting rid of semi-auto altogether as a means to combat mass killings. I was commenting on that this would have very little effect on those who would use firearms to do their mass murders. It's been decades since I've used a .3030 but I seemed to recall SAVAGE had one with a detachable mag. And of course, you can get loads of WWI/WWII bolt action rifles with fast load clips.


Not much once the fire system is activated. Killed many in the Daegu Subway. But that was a tightly restricted area with lots of people, restricted egress and no fire suppression/fire extinguishers. Commercial buildings especially schools would be a lot differentI deliberately left out one ingredient. I don't want to give people ideas but water would be very, very bad.

zraver
17 Feb 18,, 00:18
Does not work. I may meet an Air marshall once in a flight. If I am a student I live, study and work with them 8 hours a day or more. With a few hundred snooping eyes around, not only will students know who these teachers are, they will instagram the exact moment there is an accidental exposure.

They might, they might not, strangers wouldn't. Even if the student turned rampage killer did know who one was there might be more, and they may not encounter them upon entry. If the student was planning on doing a hit on an armed teacher as the kick off event it precludes walking through the doors with a long gun.


The armed shooter, who is a student/teacher/school district official/school employee, conceal carries inside the school. He gets inside the class, shoots the teacher for good measure, closes the door and starts spraying. Please "harden and defend" this situation.

You can't, no one can. The goal is too keep the carnage from spreading.


Wishful thinking much? You are a miitary man, why is it difficult for you to envisage that shooters will take care of the armed folks first? What would you do if you were to attack an armed compound? Also, kids have killed over a pair of shoes, and you are telling me that they would stay off a much more expensive item.

Because in the history of mass shootings in America, only once has the rampage killer sought to engage armed security first. Past is prologue. Yeah there may be another example of where a would be rampage killer would seek out the armed opposition first, but that is not the bulk history.


Also, no teacher volunteered. your move.

Not every flight has an air marshal, the idea is hidden but maybe= deterrence.


Tell that to the teacher, who is now broke while paying legal fees.

Not the way liability for public service workers works. They can't even be sued unless there is a finding of gross negligence.n Ie you have to sue the state first and win a finding of gross negligence before immunity will be waived.


A decent, reliable concealed carry weapon, will be around 500. I would expect at least 4 training sessions a year. Each of those cost anything between 300-500. We are already talking at least 2500 per armed schol employee. I would expect at least 4 per school, given they are not dedicated to the task.

Have local PD or state troopers teach the class.


Let's put it on a refrendum and see who wins. I know how folks in my school district will vote.

Wonder how the parents of dead kids would vote?

Double Edge
17 Feb 18,, 00:57
I did not mean to insult and I spoke with an overly broad brush, so my apologies.

No insult taken. I just wanted to point out how unique the phenomenon is that it never happens even in war torn states

Schools are hard to come by that no student wants to blow them up

tbm3fan
17 Feb 18,, 01:08
And what level of training would the armed teachers get. Basic marksmanship. (stay in your classroom protect your class and if the shooter enters engage) Or do you train them to HRT standards where they are to engage a shooter in say the cafeteria with lots of kids running in the line of fire?

Exactly what I was thinking. Basic skills in holding the weapon correctly. Then basic markmanship with a paper target 20 feet away. Run them through that 4 times a year as was suggested. Sounds great doesn't it. Now I can't find it but there was a study on NYPD officer markmanship, in real life situations, with the suspect at various distances. The one that stood out was that at 20 feet their accuracy was absolutely horrible in the heat of the moment. Take away for the suspect is to turn and run since your odds were very favorable.

So let's conduct a stress test of the teacher. Have their weapon on desk which wouldn't really happen in class. Have the paper target 20 feet away. Then when told "now" to pick up the weapon and turn to fire at the target have an armed person appear out of the blue and fire shots over the head of the teacher while another person screams in their ears like students would do. If they have to do this in real life we might as well make it real shouldn't we? What are the odds the teacher ends up dead moments after their heart rate soars to 170 beats per minute as the adrenaline courses through their body. If on the other hand it was a hallway and the teacher walked out in that physical condition to go hunting how would that end up.

As most know you can't teach stress and how to control it if you have never been through the real thing. I love how teachers will do this and that without taking into account what happens the moment a shot is fired at them suddenly. I understand that first hand after having someone jump out of bushes in front of me and point a gun three feet away at my chest. These are teachers, they pick that field for certain reasons, just like certain people pick law enforcement, and the two are not interchangeable.

Gun Grape
17 Feb 18,, 01:19
They might, they might not, strangers wouldn't. Even if the student turned rampage killer did know who one was there might be more, and they may not encounter them upon entry. If the student was planning on doing a hit on an armed teacher as the kick off event it precludes walking through the doors with a long gun.

An armed security guard (School Resource Officer from the Sheriffs Dept) didn't keep this kid from walking onto school property with a long gun.





Not the way liability for public service workers works. They can't even be sued unless there is a finding of gross negligence.n Ie you have to sue the state first and win a finding of gross negligence before immunity will be waived.
Depending on the training the armed teacher received, it would be easy to show that they had gone "Above the scope of their training" which opens them up for a lawsuit. Its the same as if a First Responder goes beyond their training.

FDLE weapon standards are

Commission’s Approved Course of Fire for the Firearms Qualification Standard

Stage 1 hip position from holster

Stage 2 Two-hand high point from Ready Gun

Using single target from the 1 to 3-yard line shoot:
2 rounds in 4 seconds
Repeat one time for a total of 4 rounds

Using single target from the 3-yard line shoot:
2 rounds in 1 second
Repeat two times for a total of 6 rounds

Stage 3 Two-hand high point from holster

Stage 4 Two-hand high point from holster

Using single target from the 7-yard line shoot:
2 rounds in 4 seconds from the holster
2 rounds in 4 seconds from ready gun position
2 rounds in 4 seconds from ready gun position

Using single target from the 7-yard line shoot:
3 rounds in 5 seconds.
Repeat one time for a total of 6 rounds

Stage 5 Two-hand high point from holster

Stage 6 Two-hand high point from holster

Using single target from the 7-yard line shoot:
12 rounds in 45 seconds. (Mandatory Reload)

Using single target from the 15-yard line shoot:
6 rounds in 30 seconds.

Passing Score. A passing score is a minimum score of 80%, which is 32 of 40 rounds in the scoring area.
Scoring. The scoring shall be any hit that is inside or touches the exterior scoring line of the 4 and 5 zone of a commercially produced
B-21E target or equivalent Pride Enterprises (P.R.I.D.E.) target.

This is what your local PD or State Trooper is going to teach.

And if you look at police shootings there is a large gap between rounds fired and hits. Now add a bunch of kids to the mix and it would be easy for the defender to cause more damage than the shooter.




Wonder how the parents of dead kids would vote?

If you listen to the Sandy Hook parents and some of the parents in this latest shooting, They don't want more guns in the school. They want less guns, and lower capacity guns in the hands of people that do these shootings.

More guns as the way to fight shootings is like advocating more booze to tackle the problem of DUI

Gun Grape
17 Feb 18,, 01:21
Actually no. White males make up over 70% of the male population but are only about half of mass shooters. This despite being the group with the most guns.

Take out drug and gang related shootings and its almost exclusively white males

tbm3fan
17 Feb 18,, 01:41
Wonder how the parents of dead kids would vote?

Let me guess?
https://thomlangford.com/2015/05/27/direct-hit-near-miss-or-remote-miss-why-you-are-more-confident-than-you-should-be/

You do realize that every kid and parent is going to be traumatized by this event and many will need help their entire lifetime. I can easily see kids refusing to set foot in the class room or even the school now. They will suffer from PTSD for a long time. Meanwhile you sit 1000 miles away like an arm chair quarterback.

citanon
17 Feb 18,, 04:07
And even the cops haven't figured that out yet.

Feb. 5: Harmony Learning Center in Maplewood, Minnesota . A 3d graded discharged a police officers holstered firearm.


And what level of training would the armed teachers get. Basic marksmanship. (stay in your classroom protect your class and if the shooter enters engage) Or do you train them to HRT standards where they are to engage a shooter in say the cafeteria with lots of kids running in the line of fire?

A: If you arm the teacher give them an AR or some sort of carbine with a red dot optic and a foregrip. Don't give them a pistol. That's too hard to shoot, too easy to lose track of, too hard to train with and too easy to have an accident with. If you are worried about over-penetration and too much lethality make it something like a 300 black out with subsonic rounds.

B: Look at real life shooting scenarios with these mass shooters and with criminals. These aren't Chuck Norrises. If no one is firing back *bang* *bang* *bang* *bang* cool calm and lethal. As soon as someone shoots back everyone starts crapping their pants, their aim goes to s*** and along with that so does their lethality. In the case of most school shooters as soon as opposition shows up the little f***s go crying in a corner and blow their own brains out.

The lesson here is: the teacher doesn't have to be good, doesn't have to aim well, doesn't even have to clear rooms. All they have to do is two thing:

1. Don't shoot the kids.
2. Put rounds in the vicinity of the active shooter so that the shooter knows other people are shooting back.

That flips the entire dynamic around. Instantly the guy is now thinking about his own survival. He goes from hunter to hunted. He's crapping his pants.

The teachers can also be crapping their own pants, they can not hit a damn thing, they can even accidentally hit a kid, but they would have done their job and bought time for SWAT to show up.

So crucial thing:

They need to engage the guy if he's firing. If he's not firing, he's not killing people; then they don't have to go looking for him, they can wait for help. If he's shooting, they have to be willing to show up and put him under stress of fire.

WABs_OOE
17 Feb 18,, 04:58
The lesson here is: the teacher doesn't have to be good, doesn't have to aim well, doesn't even have to clear rooms. All they have to do is two thing:

1. Don't shoot the kids.
2. Put rounds in the vicinity of the active shooter so that the shooter knows other people are shooting back.You're asking way too much for a part time security guard. Even soldiers reving up for deployment gets extensive range time before they're sent out for combat. Target selection would be probamatic and I would count on friendly fire, especially when cops arrive on scene and can't tell bad guys from good.

Ironduke
17 Feb 18,, 05:20
Actually no. White males make up over 70% of the male population but are only about half of mass shooters. This despite being the group with the most guns.
63% and 54%. If you're going to cite statistics, you can't lump in Hispanics with whites in your first statistic when the second statistic you're citing makes a distinction between white and Hispanic.

The mass shooter label itself is vastly overgeneralized. That is why 'active shooter' was defined to distinguish from the more general term 'mass shooter'.

The federal government's definition:


An Active Shooter is an individual actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area; in most cases, active shooters use firearms(s) and there is no pattern or method to their selection of victims.

Under the mass shooter label, active shooters gets lumped in with, for example, gang members who perform hit-and-run drive-bys, yet intends to live and get away with it. Even though multiple people are shot in both scenarios, the motivations behind the acts and the methods used are different and a distinction is warranted. The first is an active shooter, the latter is not.


It is working though, look where the mass shootings are occuring, where the law says society doesn't have to be polite.
Where would that be?

Bigfella
17 Feb 18,, 05:34
I spend a lot of time trying to explain to left wing Australians that America is not at all what they think. So much better in so very many ways. Then I read supposedly rational people advocating for the arming of teachers with anything up to & including AKs & I realize that I am probably wasting my time. You are fucked in ways so deep & so profound that I think some of you have actually lost the ability to see it. Not all, but WAY too many. I cannot tell you how pleased I am that we never have these conversations here.

Ironduke
17 Feb 18,, 05:42
I spend a lot of time trying to explain to left wing Australians that America is not at all what they think. So much better in so very many ways. Then I read supposedly rational people advocating for the arming of teachers with anything up to & including AKs & I realize that I am probably wasting my time. You are fucked in ways so deep & so profound that I think some of you have actually lost the ability to see it. Not all, but WAY too many. I cannot tell you how pleased I am that we never have these conversations here.
Agreed.

Ironduke
17 Feb 18,, 05:53
An armed security guard (School Resource Officer from the Sheriffs Dept) didn't keep this kid from walking onto school property with a long gun.
Columbine had one too. The shooters there were surely fully aware their school had one. Virginia Tech has its own police force and security guards, didn't pre-emptively dissuade the shooter there either.

tbm3fan
17 Feb 18,, 05:56
I spend a lot of time trying to explain to left wing Australians that America is not at all what they think. So much better in so very many ways. Then I read supposedly rational people advocating for the arming of teachers with anything up to & including AKs & I realize that I am probably wasting my time. You are fucked in ways so deep & so profound that I think some of you have actually lost the ability to see it. Not all, but WAY too many. I cannot tell you how pleased I am that we never have these conversations here.


You and me both. Arming teachers. Makes complete sense. What could possibly go wrong?

Monash
17 Feb 18,, 06:02
An armed security guard (School Resource Officer from the Sheriffs Dept) didn't keep this kid from walking onto school property with a long gun.




Depending on the training the armed teacher received, it would be easy to show that they had gone "Above the scope of their training" which opens them up for a lawsuit. Its the same as if a First Responder goes beyond their training.

FDLE weapon standards are

Commission’s Approved Course of Fire for the Firearms Qualification Standard

Stage 1 hip position from holster

Stage 2 Two-hand high point from Ready Gun

Using single target from the 1 to 3-yard line shoot:
2 rounds in 4 seconds
Repeat one time for a total of 4 rounds

Using single target from the 3-yard line shoot:
2 rounds in 1 second
Repeat two times for a total of 6 rounds

Stage 3 Two-hand high point from holster

Stage 4 Two-hand high point from holster

Using single target from the 7-yard line shoot:
2 rounds in 4 seconds from the holster
2 rounds in 4 seconds from ready gun position
2 rounds in 4 seconds from ready gun position

Using single target from the 7-yard line shoot:
3 rounds in 5 seconds.
Repeat one time for a total of 6 rounds

Stage 5 Two-hand high point from holster

Stage 6 Two-hand high point from holster

Using single target from the 7-yard line shoot:
12 rounds in 45 seconds. (Mandatory Reload)

Using single target from the 15-yard line shoot:
6 rounds in 30 seconds.

Passing Score. A passing score is a minimum score of 80%, which is 32 of 40 rounds in the scoring area.
Scoring. The scoring shall be any hit that is inside or touches the exterior scoring line of the 4 and 5 zone of a commercially produced
B-21E target or equivalent Pride Enterprises (P.R.I.D.E.) target.

This is what your local PD or State Trooper is going to teach.

We have something similar but the the range is out to 10 meters plus we have transition from standing to kneeling positions with a reload included. It' also pass or fail (with a requirement that certain specific sets all the rounds have to be in the black). Fail and you lose your firearm etc until you requal all sections,which to be honest doesn't usually take long because the instructors are very good at their jobs.

That said long distance shooting (say over 7 meters or so ) is H.A.R.D. hard to do consistently despite what non shooters may think from watching television which in part is why when first respondents arrive they go in with long arms assuming they have them - and I don't know of a force in the US that doesn't. I would hate to be a teacher moving out into a corridor to take on an active shooter armed with what seems to be the weapon of choice these days, an assault rifle.

As an aside I know a few teachers and based on conversations with them if you are going to make the carrying of sidearms by educators in the States compulsory you will also have to bring in rule making it compulsory for them to disarm prior to any parent teacher meeting - a lot of parents will be lucky to leave (alive) otherwise.

citanon
17 Feb 18,, 06:07
You're asking way too much for a part time security guard. Even soldiers reving up for deployment gets extensive range time before they're sent out for combat. Target selection would be probamatic and I would count on friendly fire, especially when cops arrive on scene and can't tell bad guys from good.

Well, on the plus side, the average teacher who volunteers for this sort of thing is going to be older, more mature, better educated, more mature, have a better temperament, and is probably more trainable than your average security guard. They are also likely to be more motivated than private security.

You'd have to have them co-train with the local LE agencies so the real cops would know who they are if something happens. A lot of middle aged teachers also have lots of free time that they can use to attend training (though that would vary greatly by district and school.

I think two questions you got to ask:

1. How would such a person perform relative to a typical police officer in a similar situation?
2. Would you rather have said person be there than not there if the SHTF scenario does happen?

But I agree that physical security measures such as secured and limited points of entry to campus, stronger classroom doors would be easier and no brainer as long as schools can afford them.


That said long distance shooting (say over 7 meters or so ) is H.A.R.D. hard to do consistently despite what non shooters may think from watching television which in part is why when first respondents arrive they go in with long arms assuming they have them - and I don't know of a force in the US that doesn't. I would hate to be a teacher moving out into a corridor to take on an active shooter armed with what seems to be the weapon of choice these days, an assault rifle.

I don't think it makes sense to arm teachers with anything other than long guns. I think in a school setting pistols are actually more hazardous than long guns, and I think a teacher who is trained and armed with a long gun would actually do better in these situations than a typical LEO with a pistol.

Also, in these situations you do not want just ONE person armed, you need several. With one person your ability to do something is greatly limited. Even with 2 people your options improve exponentially.

Biggest problem I think is not the teacher but where do you keep the gun? How do you secure it in the school? What happens when everybody goes home at the end of the day?



As an aside I know a few teachers and based on conversations with them if you are going to make the carrying of sidearms by educators in the States compulsory you will also have to bring in rule making it compulsory for them to disarm prior to any parent teacher meeting - a lot of parents will be lucky to leave otherwise.

Hahahaha yeah I can see that.

kato
17 Feb 18,, 07:06
Under the mass shooter label, active shooters gets lumped in with, for example, gang members who perform hit-and-run drive-bys, yet intends to live and get away with it. Even though multiple people are shot in both scenarios, the motivations behind the acts and the methods used are different and a distinction is warranted. The first is an active shooter, the latter is not.

Mmm. Interesting, as we don't have an active shooter label. We have an "amok situation" in police procedures, but that does not define the perp's motivations or methods as that's not really relevant (and there's no distinct "typical amok runner" from a psychiatric view).


Then I read supposedly rational people advocating for the arming of teachers with anything up to & including AKs & I realize that I am probably wasting my time. You are fucked in ways so deep & so profound that I think some of you have actually lost the ability to see it. Not all, but WAY too many. I cannot tell you how pleased I am that we never have these conversations here.
Eh, we do have people like that over here who think that way too. And usually that's the same people who give their kids a gun or at least some pepper spray to take to school "to protect themselves against bullies".

rosspoons
17 Feb 18,, 07:07
I spend a lot of time trying to explain to left wing Australians that America is not at all what they think. So much better in so very many ways. Then I read supposedly rational people advocating for the arming of teachers with anything up to & including AKs & I realize that I am probably wasting my time. You are fucked in ways so deep & so profound that I think some of you have actually lost the ability to see it. Not all, but WAY too many. I cannot tell you how pleased I am that we never have these conversations here.

It is just a diversion. These same people are the ones who blast the incompetence of teachers and the lack of discipline in classrooms but then throw out this red herring any time there is a shooting at a school. Even if implemented, it wouldn't last long after the first teacher got dropped by a SWAT team because they saw them with gun in hand. They are also the same people who throw out mental illness as the problem while supporting cutting programs that help mentally ill people. No congruence whatsoever to their positions.

I grew up around guns and own guns, and I am fine with tighter regulations. People simply do not need a lot of these range queen guns that are finding there way into the mass killers' hands. As far as I am concerned, the NRA & company put my right to have a firearm in jeopardy by taking a hard right hardline on anything having to do with firearms as eventually that dam will break and when it does, it won't be pretty for people who hunt or who own less extreme firearms perfectly capable of being used in self-defense.

Ironduke
17 Feb 18,, 07:37
Mmm. Interesting, as we don't have an active shooter label. We have an "amok situation" in police procedures, but that does not define the perp's motivations or methods as that's not really relevant (and there's no distinct "typical amok runner" from a psychiatric view).
From what I'm able to gather, Amoklauf is the essentially same thing as an active shooter here. Are there any examples of multiple murders that are not considered Amoklauf in Germany?

Monash
17 Feb 18,, 08:12
Columbine had one too. The shooters there were surely fully aware their school had one. Virginia Tech has its own police force and security guards, didn't pre-emptively dissuade the shooter there either.

Which brings to mind an interesting point regarding the program in Colorado that trains teachers. Kids at any school are going to sus out pretty quickly (by the end of day 1) who those armed teachers are. Which means in most cases the shooter will know to.

kato
17 Feb 18,, 08:48
From what I'm able to gather, Amoklauf is the essentially same thing as an active shooter here.
An "amok situation" is pretty generally defined as one in which a perpetrator either indiscriminately or targeting uses weapons, explosives or other dangerous devices in either having killed or injured multiple people or is about to do so and who is currently at large within this context (the precise definition is actually classified).

Whether the perpetrator is e.g. suicidal or only targeting a particular group does not play into it, it basically just defines the broad situation - in order for police to assume certain procedures (don Class IV protective equipment, get the MP5s from the car, call in situation if not reported yet, then if on site start house clearing in buddy formation even before backup arrives in order to preempt further casualties, canalize all civilians to places where they're less likely to become victims).


Are there any examples of multiple murders that are not considered Amoklauf in Germany?
Gang shootouts and similar incidents are usually never treated as amok situations.
Domestic violence sorta sits on the fence and depends on the exact situation; an amok situation is usually only called there if the perpetrator is not encountered on site and at large (i.e. if other people remain endangered).

Ironduke
17 Feb 18,, 09:25
Then Amoklauf isn't any different than active shooter.

WABs_OOE
17 Feb 18,, 15:56
Well, on the plus side, the average teacher who volunteers for this sort of thing is going to be older, more mature, better educated, more mature, have a better temperament, and is probably more trainable than your average security guard. They are also likely to be more motivated than private security.Unless that teacher was a former combat veteran with 10 years experience, then you are asking for a shootout in a crowded school.


You'd have to have them co-train with the local LE agencies so the real cops would know who they are if something happens. A lot of middle aged teachers also have lots of free time that they can use to attend training (though that would vary greatly by district and school.I don't see any room-to-room combat training.


I think two questions you got to ask:

1. How would such a person perform relative to a typical police officer in a similar situation?
2. Would you rather have said person be there than not there if the SHTF scenario does happen?The situation is urban combat. The answer is get the hell out of the way so the doorkickers can do their jobs.


But I agree that physical security measures such as secured and limited points of entry to campus, stronger classroom doors would be easier and no brainer as long as schools can afford them.They're building codes, ie firedoors to prevent the spreading of fire. But you also have to include drills into the equation. The teachers have to know when and how to lock the doors and get the students away from the fields of fire.

I have a nightmare scenario though. The gunman walks in during class change. I don't know the answer to that one.

jjk308
17 Feb 18,, 15:57
I grew up around guns and own guns, and I am fine with tighter regulations. People simply do not need a lot of these range queen guns that are finding there way into the mass killers' hands. As far as I am concerned, the NRA & company put my right to have a firearm in jeopardy by taking a hard right hardline on anything having to do with firearms as eventually that dam will break and when it does, it won't be pretty for people who hunt or who own less extreme firearms perfectly capable of being used in self-defense.

Sorry. I can understand how upset you are but you are wrong. Tighter regulations have proven useless - according to my own and other studies both in the USA and abroad, such as the failure of the Australian autoloader buy back to have any effect on the violent crime rate curve. And you misread the NRA influence and the reasons for gun control legislative failure.

It's obvious that more armed protection for schools and a competent and pro-active FBI and local law enforcement could have, and should have, prevented this shooting. But the media firestorm surpasses anything I've seen in sheer emotionalism and ignorance.

None of them seem to know anything about the subject beyond parroting what they've seen in like minded media articles and news reports. The "NRA cash" refrain is typical. the NRA spends far less on campaign contributions and lobbying than any other major national organization. Yet it always ranks near the top in effectiveness. That's because it has a large and dedicated, active membership and a huge following of single issue voters, unlike the usual astro-turf type gun control groups with small real memberships or the bigger organizations that don't have an involved, single interest membership.

The gun issue is a major part of the US cultural wars, urban Liberals vs everyone else, and it's had major political repercussions, like driving the Democrats out of power. It really is the 3rd rail of American politics and despite the ranting of the anti-gun rights media the generally silent and delayed blowback has destroyed all efforts at gun control nationally and in 3/4 of the states.

As for gun control itself, all those gun laws, some 22,000 of them (before SCOTUS 2nd Amendment rulings), and gun control in general have to be the biggest failure of public policy since Prohibition. This fact seems to be affecting the general mass of voters and even media commentators, increasingly disillusioned about their ability to "do something."

It takes a lot of statistical trickery to show any positive effects, such as ignoring all violence except gun violence, cherry picking locations and times (AKA p-hacking) and selecting basic assumptions and methodology to get the desired results.

The following studies are definitive, showing how futile its all been. I hope someone will do a study showing how the threat of gun control and especially of confiscation and bans, has lead to a surge in firearms sales and to 320,000,000 firearms in America. The very quantity of US firearms make gun control a political delusion, utterly impossible yet a basic part of the Democrat's ideology.

Brady Act Effectiveness: JOC91749.pdf at http://jama.jamanetwork.com

Evaluation of Firearms Laws https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2...

DOJ: Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault
Weapons Ban: 1994-2003
Christopher S. Koper
Document No.: 204431
Award Number: 98-IJ-CX-0039

Gun Grape
17 Feb 18,, 16:30
Sorry. I can understand how upset you are but you are wrong. Tighter regulations have proven useless - according to my own and other studies both in the USA and abroad, such as the failure of the Australian autoloader buy back to have any effect on the violent crime rate curve. And you misread the NRA influence and the reasons for gun control legislative failure.

Then you should have looked further on the JAMA page.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2582989?resultClick=1&redirect=true


Findings In the aggregate, stronger gun policies were associated with decreased rates of firearm homicide, even after adjusting for demographic and sociologic factors. Laws that strengthen background checks and permit-to-purchase seemed to decrease firearm homicide rates. Specific laws directed at firearm trafficking, improving child safety, or the banning of military-style assault weapons were not associated with changes in firearm homicide rates. The evidence for laws restricting guns in public places and leniency in gun carrying was mixed.

Conclusions and Relevance The strength of firearm legislation in general, and laws related to strengthening background checks and permit-to-purchase in particular, is associated with decreased firearm homicide rates. High-quality research is important to further evaluate the effectiveness of these laws. Legislation is just 1 part of a multipronged approach that will be necessary to decrease firearm homicides in the United States.

Gun Grape
17 Feb 18,, 16:38
But I agree that physical security measures such as secured and limited points of entry to campus, stronger classroom doors would be easier and no brainer as long as schools can afford them.


And of course the State of Florida has been constantly cutting that budget since 2007.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/15/fla-lawmakers-repeatedly-denied-pleas-more-school-safety-money/339934002/

Districts 10 years ago divvied up a Safe Schools pot of about $75.6 million, a plateau that hasn't been seen, or even approached, since.

Since 2007, Safe Schools has been cut by 15% — little by little until it hit $64.4 million in 2011, according to the Department of Education.

Florida school enrollment, meanwhile, grew by more than 300,000 students over the same span, according to the state.

Each district gets a minimum lump sum every year for Safe Schools, plus extra money based on the county's crime rate.

That minimum was $73,485 in 2007-08 compared to $62,660 in 2017-18, according to the state.

The Department of Education has asked the Legislature for more Safe Schools funding each of the past eight years, records reveal.

Yet year after year, lawmakers have set aside no more than the same $64.4 million.

The first plea came before the 2012-13 school year, when the Department of Education requested a $1.9 million increase to Safe Schools.

Lawmakers said no.

Undeterred, the Department of Education returned in 2013-14 with a smaller request: a $394,832 boost to Safe Schools.

Still, nothing.

The Department of Education asked for about a $1.2 million Safe Schools hike in 2014-15. But the Legislature voted for the same $64.4 million.

But the Department of Education didn't give up after having nominal increases rejected year after year. Officials asked the Legislature for an extra $10 million for Safe Schools three years in a row, and will again for 2019-20.

If that money makes it to the state budget, Safe Schools finally would be back to pre-recession funding.

Gun Grape
17 Feb 18,, 16:43
Know whats crazy?
We won't allow a 19yr old to buy a beer. Because he/she isn't mature enough to be a responsible drinker.

But, we have no problem with them buying guns. Even those like this shooter that checked hisself out of a mental health clinic not to long ago.

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 16:51
What are you talking about? How many hours of practice do you need with a .3030 or .223? Or even a .22short?

I have no experience with lever action, but I can state with certainty that my AR and AK take less time to let off rounds compared to my bolt action rifles. The AR even makes reloading super easy, just hit that thingie (whose name I am forgetting) on an open bolt and you are good to go. If you have stacked mags, it is even easier.


And you know what is scary about lever and bolt actions, far more than automatics? It forces you to make the shot instead of taking the shot. Hell, we don't use handheld autos for the very fact that you can't control the climb. No such thing with lever or bolt actions.

My point exactly. It takes refocus instead of spraying. At close quarters, this means time lost for the shooter.


Are you joking me? We have over 200 million Americans who can fill up a gas tank and can get it anywhere in the US. In fact, that is one of the ways that scares the hell out of me. It doesn't take brains to spill gas and light it. The only thing stopping its spread is the lack of the cool factor.

It takes brains not to cook yourself into a horrible death, which is why people avoid it.


I like Kato's suggestion. All classrooms have firedoors. They can take a hell of a lot of punishment. Locked and the AR-15 ain't getting through to do harm. What scares me is what the idiot can do with gasoline.

I agree that schools need to have protective infrastructure. The sad part is that American has become a country where this is at all needed

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 16:54
Columbine had one too. The shooters there were surely fully aware their school had one. Virginia Tech has its own police force and security guards, didn't pre-emptively dissuade the shooter there either.

The armed guards cannot be everywhere. But they are dedicated to defending and are far better than armed teachers, whose job is to teach. Armed guards, together with protective and security infrastructure can at least make schools safer, because spineless politicians will not do anything except offer thougths and prayers.

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 16:59
Well, on the plus side, the average teacher who volunteers for this sort of thing is going to be older, more mature, better educated, more mature, have a better temperament, and is probably more trainable than your average security guard. They are also likely to be more motivated than private security.


Why would a teacher, whose job is teaching be more motivated about being armed and trained than an armed guard, whose job is security? Also, what if ther are no volunteers?



I don't think it makes sense to arm teachers with anything other than long guns. I think in a school setting pistols are actually more hazardous than long guns, and I think a teacher who is trained and armed with a long gun would actually do better in these situations than a typical LEO with a pistol.


You want teachers armed with long guns, presumably hanging off their bodies on three point slings while they write on the board. Zraver wants anonymous air marshalls. Please decide amongst yourselves (the proarmed teacher supporters) what your policy position

jjk308
17 Feb 18,, 17:01
Then you should have looked further on the JAMA page.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2582989?resultClick=1&redirect=true

All physicians, not criminologists or statisticians. It's easy to cherry pick if you have a result in mind before starting, and most of the quoted studies are too narrow based to be of any use.

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 17:04
Sorry. I can understand how upset you are but you are wrong. Tighter regulations have proven useless - according to my own and other studies both in the USA and abroad, such as the failure of the Australian autoloader buy back to have any effect on the violent crime rate curve. And you misread the NRA influence and the reasons for gun control legislative failure.

It's obvious that more armed protection for schools and a competent and pro-active FBI and local law enforcement could have, and should have, prevented this shooting. But the media firestorm surpasses anything I've seen in sheer emotionalism and ignorance.

None of them seem to know anything about the subject beyond parroting what they've seen in like minded media articles and news reports. The "NRA cash" refrain is typical. the NRA spends far less on campaign contributions and lobbying than any other major national organization. Yet it always ranks near the top in effectiveness. That's because it has a large and dedicated, active membership and a huge following of single issue voters, unlike the usual astro-turf type gun control groups with small real memberships or the bigger organizations that don't have an involved, single interest membership.

The gun issue is a major part of the US cultural wars, urban Liberals vs everyone else, and it's had major political repercussions, like driving the Democrats out of power. It really is the 3rd rail of American politics and despite the ranting of the anti-gun rights media the generally silent and delayed blowback has destroyed all efforts at gun control nationally and in 3/4 of the states.

As for gun control itself, all those gun laws, some 22,000 of them (before SCOTUS 2nd Amendment rulings), and gun control in general have to be the biggest failure of public policy since Prohibition. This fact seems to be affecting the general mass of voters and even media commentators, increasingly disillusioned about their ability to "do something."

It takes a lot of statistical trickery to show any positive effects, such as ignoring all violence except gun violence, cherry picking locations and times (AKA p-hacking) and selecting basic assumptions and methodology to get the desired results.

The following studies are definitive, showing how futile its all been. I hope someone will do a study showing how the threat of gun control and especially of confiscation and bans, has lead to a surge in firearms sales and to 320,000,000 firearms in America. The very quantity of US firearms make gun control a political delusion, utterly impossible yet a basic part of the Democrat's ideology.

Brady Act Effectiveness: JOC91749.pdf at http://jama.jamanetwork.com

Evaluation of Firearms Laws https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2...

DOJ: Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault
Weapons Ban: 1994-2003
Christopher S. Koper
Document No.: 204431
Award Number: 98-IJ-CX-0039

I agree that purely from a political perspective, Democracts should stop hounding this issue. I guess we should just let the mass murders, school shootings and dead children just pile up instead (where is the fucking angry face when you need it)

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 17:06
It is working though, look where the mass shootings are occuring, where the law says society doesn't have to be polite.

Really? How would your armed society have prevented the Las Vegas Shootings?

jjk308
17 Feb 18,, 17:11
But, we have no problem with them buying guns. Even those like this shooter that checked hisself out of a mental health clinic not to long ago.

Florida, and every other state I know of has a very defective mental health system. Under the Baker Act it's far too hard to commit anyone involuntarily, so most admissions are either to an open community health center to are voluntary. Unless you jump through a lot of hoops the involuntary ones are limited to 72 hours, inadequate for evaluating and determining treatment, and it's difficult to get anyone who isn't incoherent or raving and violent committed involuntarily. I have personal experience of that process having been a guardian ad litum.

This state of affairs exists because Liberals wanted to protect mental patients rights and Conservatives wanted to save money by closing mental hospitals. It obviously isn't working.

As for age, I wouldn't have a problem with a 25 year minimum for both drinking and buying a firearm, which would get you out of the age range for most violent crime. That is if it could be enforced, and it can't because of those 300,000,000 guns.

jjk308
17 Feb 18,, 17:14
I agree that purely from a political perspective, Democracts should stop hounding this issue. I guess we should just let the mass murders, school shootings and dead children just pile up instead (where is the fucking angry face when you need it)

So what's your solution, short of a civil war to confiscate all guns, or more useless laws? This issue is running strictly on emotion, not reason.

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 17:22
They might, they might not, strangers wouldn't.


How many of these school shooters were strangers? Kids would know exactly what the teachers would be up to. What sort of guns would the teachers carry? I assume you carry. It is quite difficult to carry any weapon with substantial capacity without quite noticeble printing. If the teacher has to be in tucked shirt and tie then this roblem intensifies. Else you have the dead giveaway hawaian shirt and fisherman jacket.



Even if the student turned rampage killer did know who one was there might be more, and they may not encounter them upon entry. If the student was planning on doing a hit on an armed teacher as the kick off event it precludes walking through the doors with a long gun.


Violin case, guitar case, T Square/ arch. drafter case, gym bag. The possibilities are endless. Also, if one just wants to kill a few (as opposed to a lot) students, a pistol with a number of mags would serve as well



You can't, no one can. The goal is too keep the carnage from spreading.


Yes, we can. Other countries are doing it.



Because in the history of mass shootings in America, only once has the rampage killer sought to engage armed security first. Past is prologue. Yeah there may be another example of where a would be rampage killer would seek out the armed opposition first, but that is not the bulk history.


You did no answer the question, what would you do?



Not every flight has an air marshal, the idea is hidden but maybe= deterrence.


When the goal is death by cop, there is no deterrance. Also, it is not really easy to actually get a gun into an airport, unline in a school. Else you are talking about airport level security at all entry points.



Not the way liability for public service workers works. They can't even be sued unless there is a finding of gross negligence.n Ie you have to sue the state first and win a finding of gross negligence before immunity will be waived.


That is their job, this is volunteering.



Have local PD or state troopers teach the class.


In that budget may be shared, but it is not free



Wonder how the parents of dead kids would vote?

Do you indeed?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/politics/mom-pleads-with-trump-after-daughter-slain-in-school-shooting-newsroom-brooke-baldwin-cnntv/index.html

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 18:11
So what's your solution, short of a civil war to confiscate all guns, or more useless laws? This issue is running strictly on emotion, not reason.

I would start with the following

1. Ban all semi-auto firearms imports - AKs, FN FALs, VEPRs. I believe this can be done through executive order
2. Ban all import of ammuniton. Let's see where you get your cheap TULA and WOLF. I think this can be done through Executive order too
3. Raise taxes on all non-hunting rifle calibers. Your 5.56, .223, 7.62 all go way up. Do the same for 300 blackout
4. Raise taxes way high on all reloading equipment and supplies
5. Raise minimum age to be able to purchase firearms to 21 - act of Congress
6. Harsh mandatory minimum sentences for any firearms violations - act of Congress
7. Mandatory backgrounds check and data sharing across the board - act of Congress
8. Do not allow people on aviation, terrorist or any other watchlists to purchase firearms. They should have a right to appeal though - act of Congress
9. Share mental health related data federally and across states, include as part of background check - act of Congress
10. Ban bump fire stocks - Act of Congress
11. Mandate serial number for barrels, create a ballistics profile DB for all new barrels and require NICS check for barrel purchase

Notice how I have not even gone into AWB, Magazine size etc.

The next step is to ban all semi auto rifles (Assault weapons do not even mean anything). Do not touch pistols, shotgun variants and non semi auto rifle variants

Gun Grape
17 Feb 18,, 18:11
All physicians, not criminologists or statisticians. It's easy to cherry pick if you have a result in mind before starting, and most of the quoted studies are too narrow based to be of any use.

Yea, Its JAMA The Journal of the American Medical Association.

You know, the site you linked to.

Ironduke
17 Feb 18,, 19:38
If gun ownership is a right with presence of guns being ubiquitous in our country, perhaps proponents should just take the position that the existence of gun violence, however tragic, is an acceptable risk.

astralis
17 Feb 18,, 19:56
the more honest ones say this, which at least is better than the stupid logical contortion that if only America had even MORE guns, Americans would be safer.

WABs_OOE
17 Feb 18,, 20:01
I have no experience with lever action, but I can state with certainty that my AR and AK take less time to let off rounds compared to my bolt action rifles. The AR even makes reloading super easy, just hit that thingie (whose name I am forgetting) on an open bolt and you are good to go. If you have stacked mags, it is even easier.Play with the .303 LEE-ENFIELD, a bolt action designed for military use, rapid fire, fast reload, and is not a semi-auto.


My point exactly. It takes refocus instead of spraying. At close quarters, this means time lost for the shooter.I rather have him hitting walls and ceilings and wasting ammo than to acquire a 2nd target.


It takes brains not to cook yourself into a horrible death, which is why people avoid it.As opposed to learning how to load and reload a firearm? Molotov cocktails ain't rocket science.

The only thing stopping more Boston Marathons is the lack of cool factor.


I agree that schools need to have protective infrastructure. The sad part is that American has become a country where this is at all neededThey should already have it. It's called the Fire Code. What's missing are procedures on how to lock doors, get out of the lanes of fire, call for help, and how to wait for help.

WABs_OOE
17 Feb 18,, 20:24
I would start with the followingToo many loop holes to begin with.


1. Ban all semi-auto firearms imports - AKs, FN FALs, VEPRs. I believe this can be done through executive orderCan be built under license in the US.


2. Ban all import of ammuniton. Let's see where you get your cheap TULA and WOLF. I think this can be done through Executive order tooExecutive Orders can be challenged through courts, especially trade. Note the BOEING-BOMBADIER fiasco.


3. Raise taxes on all non-hunting rifle calibers. Your 5.56, .223, 7.62 all go way up. Do the same for 300 blackoutIdiotic to the extreme and won't stand up in court. If it can drop a man, it can drop a deer/moose/bear/elk. Your 5.56/.223 are fantastic coyote rounds and the 7.62/.308 are the run-of-the-mill deer rounds.


4. Raise taxes way high on all reloading equipment and supplies
5. Raise minimum age to be able to purchase firearms to 21 - act of Congress
6. Harsh mandatory minimum sentences for any firearms violations - act of Congress
7. Mandatory backgrounds check and data sharing across the board - act of Congress
8. Do not allow people on aviation, terrorist or any other watchlists to purchase firearms. They should have a right to appeal though - act of Congress
9. Share mental health related data federally and across states, include as part of background check - act of CongressAct of Congress should tell you just how realistic these all are.


10. Ban bump fire stocks - Act of Congress

Yx4cqBFmjtA


The next step is to ban all semi auto rifles (Assault weapons do not even mean anything). Do not touch pistols, shotgun variants and non semi auto rifle variantsCheck out WW1 military rifles. Banning semi auto will not solve mass murder nor even reduce mass murder problem.

You are attacking the sympton, not the disease. Again, the only reason why these idiots turn to firearms is because of the cool factor. Eliminating the cool factor does not eliminate the murder rage. The sniper is no longer the Jihadist hero, the bombmaker is.

Edit:
The next step is to ban all semi auto rifles (Assault weapons do not even mean anything). Do not touch pistols, shotgun variants and non semi auto rifle variantsNow that I think about this some more, this is completely unworkable. The difference between semi-auto long arms and pistols is barrel length. If you ban the action, then you have to ban both.

And even that is unworkable. It won't be long when companies start making a revolver type action for long arms. Or are you going to ban revolver actions also?

astralis
17 Feb 18,, 20:28
usually means those freaks turn to knives rather than bombs or whatnot.

and even then, the prospect of actually stabbing someone up close and personal is a major turnoff, which is why we don't hear about frequent mass knifings in the UK or Australia or Japan. they do happen...but nothing close to the number of mass shootings in the US.

WABs_OOE
17 Feb 18,, 20:35
Have you all consider that this was an attempted suicide by cop?

Ironduke
17 Feb 18,, 21:01
Have you all consider that this was an attempted suicide by cop?
It goes without saying, that in the overwhelming majority of active shooter cases, the gunman does not intend to live.

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 21:36
Play with the .303 LEE-ENFIELD, a bolt action designed for military use, rapid fire, fast reload, and is not a semi-auto.


The SMLE is a special case, with its cock on closing action. Most bolt actions available in the US are Mauser or Remington, a slower cock on open action. Even SMLEs .303s are 10 rounders, which means time for mag change. Also .303 rounds are relatively hard to come by at bulk. There are some SMLEs chambered in.308, but they are relatively rare (I am in the market for one)



I rather have him hitting walls and ceilings and wasting ammo than to acquire a 2nd target.


Col., that's the point. A school hallway or classroom with students running around is a target rich environment and there is less chance of him missing even if he simply sprays.



As opposed to learning how to load and reload a firearm? Molotov cocktails ain't rocket science.

The only thing stopping more Boston Marathons is the lack of cool factor.


I still think that it is safer (to the perp himself) to operate the gun compared to mucking around with explosives



They should already have it. It's called the Fire Code. What's missing are procedures on how to lock doors, get out of the lanes of fire, call for help, and how to wait for help.

Yes, my daughter's school has those doors. But better access control, along with these lockdown procedures is definitely required.

WABs_OOE
17 Feb 18,, 21:37
Then Thank God that suicide vests don't have a cool factor. At least, not yet.

WABs_OOE
17 Feb 18,, 21:43
The SMLE is a special case, with its cock on closing action. Most bolt actions available in the US are Mauser or Remington, a slower cock on open action. Even SMLEs .303s are 10 rounders, which means time for mag change. Also .303 rounds are relatively hard to come by at bulk. There are some SMLEs chambered in.308, but they are relatively rare (I am in the market for one)You're missing the point. The point is that the action is available and can be put into new designs. Rapid fire, fast load bolt action technology exists.


Col., that's the point. A school hallway or classroom with students running around is a target rich environment and there is less chance of him missing even if he simply sprays.Spray makes the barrel climb and hit high, over the heads of his intended target but I ask you, what if he brought a pump action 12 guage shotgun with 00 buckshot?


I still think that it is safer (to the perp himself) to operate the gun compared to mucking around with explosivesIt was an attempted suicide by cop. Thank God, he didn't think about a suicide vest.

Double Edge
17 Feb 18,, 22:02
Know whats crazy?
We won't allow a 19yr old to buy a beer. Because he/she isn't mature enough to be a responsible drinker.

But, we have no problem with them buying guns. Even those like this shooter that checked hisself out of a mental health clinic not to long ago.

I made that point earlier but nobody answered. Since you bring it up i'd like to know why teens are allowed to handle guns.

It seems the closest correlation i can find as to why this goes on

As to why he did it, maybe he's been on anti-depressants too long. It's ironic that anti-depressants can sometimes lead to suicide

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 22:26
Too many loop holes to begin with.
Can be built under license in the US.


Yes, I know. I have one from Century Arms. Meanwhile prices will go up. Manufacturers will have to invest in tools and dies, which can be targeted separately.



Executive Orders can be challenged through courts, especially trade. Note the BOEING-BOMBADIER fiasco.


Sure, go ahead. Not every Executive Order needs to be crafted by boneheads. Competently crafted Executive Orders will not fall apart.



Idiotic to the extreme and won't stand up in court. If it can drop a man, it can drop a deer/moose/bear/elk. Your 5.56/.223 are fantastic coyote rounds and the 7.62/.308 are the run-of-the-mill deer rounds.


Yes, great. The better question is, how will you stop it if an activist President who does this by Executive Action?



Act of Congress should tell you just how realistic these all are.


I was wrong about the sharing mental data part. Obama already did that (and Trump removed it). Raising taxes can be done by EA. Regarding the rest, which ones do you think will face political opposition? Raising min age? Mandatory sentencing? The watchlist thing?



Check out WW1 military rifles. Banning semi auto will not solve mass murder nor even reduce mass murder problem.


I have them. I also have semi-autos like ARs and AKs. If you are telling me that bolt actions have the same fire rate and firepower as semi-autos then you are full of it



You are attacking the sympton, not the disease. Again, the only reason why these idiots turn to firearms is because of the cool factor. Eliminating the cool factor does not eliminate the murder rage. The sniper is no longer the Jihadist hero, the bombmaker is.


The disease is that we have these weapons widely available. It is time to treat that.



Edit:Now that I think about this some more, this is completely unworkable. The difference between semi-auto long arms and pistols is barrel length. If you ban the action, then you have to ban both.

And even that is unworkable. It won't be long when companies start making a revolver type action for long arms. Or are you going to ban revolver actions also?

Long guns (independent of action) and pistols are already treated differently by law during background checks. Long guns (if there is political acceptance) can be further be broadly divided into semi auto actions and others.

Saying that semi auto actions are the same as pistols with longer barrels is completely disingenuous. How exactly will a short action like that handle intermediate and longer rounds? Come to think of it, I would like to see them attempt it. I do not see thm as being reliable solutions.

Revolver type action for long arms? So now I have reduced something with a light SA trigger and possibly hundreds of rounds (drum mags) in firepower to something completely different with a max of 7-8 rounds, a long, heavy DA trigger pull and possible timing issues?

Good job, me.

antimony
17 Feb 18,, 23:02
You're missing the point. The point is that the action is available and can be put into new designs. Rapid fire, fast load bolt action technology exists.


I am really not. I understand that point. My point is that this is readily available right now. Someone will have to build it, which can be targetted through speciific taxes on tooling.

BTW, can you help me understand why that design is not already implemented on currently available long guns? Why do we see so many Mauser and Remington actions but very few Lee Enfield actios or variants? This is something that genuinely puzzles me.



Spray makes the barrel climb and hit high, over the heads of his intended target but I ask you, what if he brought a pump action 12 guage shotgun with 00 buckshot?


Greater damage, but probably fewer casualties. I would submit that a few buckshots do less internal damage than tumbling 223/556 rounds. A few more things, A 12 Gauge pump action can be fast, but needs practice to operate smoothly. There is a lag in the pumpimg action.

I will concede that pump actions in the hands of skilled shooters are essentially limitless in ammo. However, it is not easy firing on a 12 ga with 00 for an extended time, while dealing with the heavy recoil and the pumping action.

Monash
17 Feb 18,, 23:09
Sorry. I can understand how upset you are but you are wrong. Tighter regulations have proven useless - according to my own and other studies both in the USA and abroad, such as the failure of the Australian auto-loader buy back to have any effect on the violent crime rate curve. And you misread the NRA influence and the reasons for gun control legislative failure.

jjk - With respect the above comment is a basic misinterpretation the Australian data and the same problem tends to arise whenever American pro gun advocates comment on the Australian auto-loader ban.

You are correct when you note that the gun buyback had little to no effect on the level of violent crime in Australia. But that is not the issue. The auto-loader ban was focused on preventing one specific sub-set of violent crime i.e. mass shootings not all violent crime and in that context it has been a spectacular success.

The same issue arises with other crime types say theft. As a crime type there are multiple subcategories, i.e burglary, auto theft, shop lifting, muggings etc (and of course sub-sets within those sub-sets). It follows that techniques designed to defeat or reduce one sub-set of crime will have little or no effect on another. Mandating the use of engine immobilizers and similar technologies in all new cars is an effective way reducing car theft but it will have zero impact on overall burglary rates.

The fact is that in most of the Western World violent crime rates have been and are continuing to decrease since the late seventies/early eighties. There are actually more firearms in Australia now than there were before the buy-back but the downward trend in murder rates has continued regardless indicating no strong nexus between overall gun ownership rates here (and most other Western counties) and violent crime. This is because gun ownership is confined largely to a relatively small percentage of the population who are all law abiding (licensed, back ground checked and trained). There is however a very strong nexus between mass shootings and auto-loaders as demonstrated by the fact that we have had zero mass shootings since the ban.

So if the US decides to ban auto-loaders the impact on overall gun crime rates will be minimal but the impact on mass shootings would or should be significant... but .. and here is the sting in the tail while I don't have the exact figures to hand mass shootings in the US represent less than 1 percent of the total gun deaths excluding suicides every year. So are Americans prepared to pay the price?

One last thing - any auto loader ban would have also include a significant tightening of handgun (pistol not revolver) ownership as is the case here. This is simply because of the high rates of fire these weapons can obtain, otherwise any ban on long arms will be much less effective than ours was. I believe you'd still put an end to double figure mass shooting casualty rates - with rare exceptions but the singe figure incidents (e.g. 3-6) would continue on their depressing way unless pistol restrictions were included along the lines that Australia Canada and other Western jurisdictions impose.

To change things will require determination and political courage, IMO two commodities sadly lacking in Washington at the moment. So one way or another the US has managed to create tragic problem for itself. And this time it's not the Chinese fault.

citanon
17 Feb 18,, 23:27
Unless that teacher was a former combat veteran with 10 years experience, then you are asking for a shootout in a crowded school.

My point is a shootout kills less people than a massacre. I agree with you about the lack of combat abilities. However, the same applies to every one involved until SWAT arrives, including the shooter himself. He's prepared for a massacre but not a fight.



I don't see any room-to-room combat training.

The situation is urban combat. The answer is get the hell out of the way so the doorkickers can do their jobs.

I agree with you, but what do you do in the interim between the start of the shooting and when swat arrives? Thats when all the casualties happen.



They're building codes, ie firedoors to prevent the spreading of fire. But you also have to include drills into the equation. The teachers have to know when and how to lock the doors and get the students away from the fields of fire.

I have a nightmare scenario though. The gunman walks in during class change. I don't know the answer to that one.

It turns out your nightmare scenario actually happened this time. The building was secure, but this kid was smart and planned it out.

First, he chose his attack at school closing tine when the doors to the scbook are opened for students and staff to leave.

Second, he pulled the fire alarm knowing that would deactivate locks on the doors to let people out. This made it hard for teachers to keep students secured in the room.

This guy knew his school intimately and planned his attack to circumvent the otherwise effective physical security.

He also got lucky because the one SRO at the school was not near the scene of the shooting at the time. He might have even been off campus.


And of course the State of Florida has been constantly cutting that budget since 2007.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/15/fla-lawmakers-repeatedly-denied-pleas-more-school-safety-money/339934002/

Districts 10 years ago divvied up a Safe Schools pot of about $75.6 million, a plateau that hasn't been seen, or even approached, since.

Since 2007, Safe Schools has been cut by 15% — little by little until it hit $64.4 million in 2011, according to the Department of Education.


As I wrote above this school had decent physical security. The one vulnerability was the fire alarm system exploited in the attack. The school had wanted to upgrade but did not find the budget.


I think beyond arming the teachers, which I agree is problematic but I think needs further study, the most immediate steps that will instantly mitigate risks of these attacks are following:

1. Actually follow up on credible tips. This is incredibly important. In this case the FBI received a credible and specific tip from someone close to the shooter. If these aren't followed up we have no prayer of stopping these things.

2. There needs to be a systematic national framework guidance for when and how school officials should work with local state and federal LE to report, respond and vet threats. No school should ever expell a student for threat of violence without warning law enforcement.

3. Systematic procedures should be developed for law enforcement and mental health professionals to vet and monitor individuals that pose a credible threat. These procedures should be aimed at prevention and deescalation. They should not be so draconian that community members are discouraged from reporting, but they need to be effective.

4. The communities need detailed and specific education on when to report and what to report. They also need to know what will happen to their loved ones friends or students if they report them, how their own identities will be protected, and the dire consequences of not reporting, and the consequences for hoax reporting. This is so members of the community can have the know how to do the right thing.


Lastly, as a tactical matter, multiple police officers need to be deployed on or very close to school campuses at school start and days end.

Bigfella
17 Feb 18,, 23:47
Sorry. I can understand how upset you are but you are wrong. Tighter regulations have proven useless - according to my own and other studies both in the USA and abroad, such as the failure of the Australian autoloader buy back to have any effect on the violent crime rate curve. And you misread the NRA influence and the reasons for gun control legislative failure.

It's obvious that more armed protection for schools and a competent and pro-active FBI and local law enforcement could have, and should have, prevented this shooting. But the media firestorm surpasses anything I've seen in sheer emotionalism and ignorance.

None of them seem to know anything about the subject beyond parroting what they've seen in like minded media articles and news reports.

You have to love someone who accuses others of 'emotionalism and ignorance' and 'parroting likeminded media' immediately after making a claim about the 'failure' of an Australian policy that can only have its origins in emotionalism, ignorance and likeminded media.

The laws passed in Australia in 1996 & subsequent laws - which constitute considerably more than buying back semi-automatics - were not aimed at the 'violent crime curve' (talk about constructing a definition designed to get a particular answer). They were aimed at decreasing the number of deaths caused by firearms, in particular the number of murders. They were very specifically aimed at preventing the sort of crime that is the subject of this thread.

So, when a mentally ill young man committed yet another mass shooting - the latest in a string of such crimes over the preceding decades - we didn't waste our time in the sort of organized mass diversions that are now the standard response to these things in the US. We didn't advocate locking up innocent mentally ill people in order to protect gun owners from the horror of owning less guns. We didn't spend endless hours debating what is & isn't an 'assault weapon'. We didn't waste time debating arming teachers. We didn't blame ethnic minorities, blather on about 'people kill people...' or sink into the rote learned emotional responses of gun owners masquerading as a 'rational response'.

We enacted a series laws that have seen a dramatic drop in firearms murders, as was intended. In the 20+ years since those laws there hasn't been a mass shooting incident (5 or more victims), as intended. The rate of firearms deaths overall has decreased by 66%, as was intended. The murder rate has also halved, as was intended. I am not advocating that America can or should replicate these laws, but they have worked.

Because they have worked the Firearms lobby in the US has spent decades pushing misleading propaganda about those laws. Nothing scarier than the success of laws you are opposed to. Whoever is telling you that the 'violent crime curve' is relevant here is pushing an agenda. By all means misrepresent your own nation, but don't lie about mine. We have civilized & successful gun laws, you have one of the most spectacular and costly policy failures in the democratic world. Someone hoping to do something about that policy failure might try to learn from successful attempts elsewhere rather than creating ways to dismiss them.

WABs_OOE
18 Feb 18,, 00:24
Yes, I know. I have one from Century Arms. Meanwhile prices will go up. Manufacturers will have to invest in tools and dies, which can be targeted separately.It's been done before and it has NOT stopped the spread of military style firearms. If there are people willing to pay for it, there will be sales. Also, there's nothing special about the AK action.


Sure, go ahead. Not every Executive Order needs to be crafted by boneheads. Competently crafted Executive Orders will not fall apart.EOs cannot violate the law and that includes the various trade treaties Ratified by the Senate. The President is not above the law.


Yes, great. The better question is, how will you stop it if an activist President who does this by Executive Action?It is not illegal to disobey an illegal EO. Such an order would violate the 2A. You ban these ammo, then you effectively ban the 5.56/.223, 7.62/.308 firearms, perfectly legal calibres.


I was wrong about the sharing mental data part. Obama already did that (and Trump removed it). Raising taxes can be done by EA. Regarding the rest, which ones do you think will face political opposition? Raising min age? Mandatory sentencing? The watchlist thing?That is incorrect. Obama shared mental health records of convicted criminals, he is not allowed to share health records of those who broke no laws.

All budgets are done by the Houses. That is one of the Checks and Balances of British inherited systems. The Executive/King does not control the purse, Parliament/Congree/Senate does.

The rest violates an individual's right to privacy. Just because you're on a watchlist does not mean you broken a law. You're not denied rights as defined by the US Constitution just because you are suspected of something. The state has the legal obligation to prove that you should be denied those rights. Until then, Innocent Until Proven Guilty. Until Proven Guilty, you have all your rights. Otherwise, American citizens should be arming themselves real fast and I mean tanks and artillery.


I have them. I also have semi-autos like ARs and AKs. If you are telling me that bolt actions have the same fire rate and firepower as semi-autos then you are full of itSame rate of fire? No. Same firepower? Tell me an AK or an AR chamberred for a .50BMG. However, I'm speaking of lethality and if someone would mordernize the SMLE action, then yes, I would pit it against an AK or an AR, especially chambered for a .30-06


The disease is that we have these weapons widely available. It is time to treat that.The disease is the cry for help and no one listened. As I said, the AR was the cool factor. The kid could have done a lot more damage with a 12 guage pump with 00 buck. Again, Thank God, he didn't think of a suicide vest.


Long guns (independent of action) and pistols are already treated differently by law during background checks. Long guns (if there is political acceptance) can be further be broadly divided into semi auto actions and othersAgain, you have to fit it within existing legislation. After market barrels do exist for pistols.


Saying that semi auto actions are the same as pistols with longer barrels is completely disingenuous. How exactly will a short action like that handle intermediate and longer rounds? Come to think of it, I would like to see them attempt it. I do not see thm as being reliable solutions.You're joking. Thompsons. MP5, Uzi


Revolver type action for long arms? So now I have reduced something with a light SA trigger and possibly hundreds of rounds (drum mags) in firepower to something completely different with a max of 7-8 rounds, a long, heavy DA trigger pull and possible timing issues?

Good job, me.Gatling.

WABs_OOE
18 Feb 18,, 01:00
I am really not. I understand that point. My point is that this is readily available right now. Someone will have to build it, which can be targetted through speciific taxes on tooling.Machine lathes and stamps?


BTW, can you help me understand why that design is not already implemented on currently available long guns? Why do we see so many Mauser and Remington actions but very few Lee Enfield actios or variants? This is something that genuinely puzzles me.Rear locking action. It weakens accuracy over time as compared to front locking actions.


Greater damage, but probably fewer casualties. I would submit that a few buckshots do less internal damage than tumbling 223/556 rounds.9 pellets have a better chance of hitting your target than a single round and the pump allows you to reacquire your target selection.


A few more things, A 12 Gauge pump action can be fast, but needs practice to operate smoothly. There is a lag in the pumpimg action.We're talking about a kid on adrendelin in close quarters. He was missing more than he hit with the AR. That would not be the same with the 12 gauge.


I will concede that pump actions in the hands of skilled shooters are essentially limitless in ammo. However, it is not easy firing on a 12 ga with 00 for an extended time, while dealing with the heavy recoil and the pumping action.We can say anything about a skilled shooter. Hell, if it was any military member here, the thinking would be grenades. However, the point remains that he could have done a hell of a lot more damage with other tools. The very fact that everyone is focusing on the ARs is missing the picture.

He was intent on suicide by cop. He just chose an AR instead of a bomb vest and only because bomb vests ain't glorified - yet. It's the suicide by cop you should be focusing on.

antimony
18 Feb 18,, 02:34
It's been done before and it has NOT stopped the spread of military style firearms. If there are people willing to pay for it, there will be sales. Also, there's nothing special about the AK action.


There isn't anything special except the fact that they are semi auto designs. Some of them are already blocked for import. Trump has not lifted those bans



EOs cannot violate the law and that includes the various trade treaties Ratified by the Senate. The President is not above the law.

It is not illegal to disobey an illegal EO. Such an order would violate the 2A. You ban these ammo, then you effectively ban the 5.56/.223, 7.62/.308 firearms, perfectly legal calibres.


Sure, they need to be crafted properly. The point is, can I find a way around them. I would bet that mere tax increases would not necessarily violate the 2A and would like to see what the courts say abut that.



That is incorrect. Obama shared mental health records of convicted criminals, he is not allowed to share health records of those who broke no laws.


Obama also shared data for those receiving federal benefits for mental issues. This was challenged not by the courts but by Trump himself, who did away with that and is now pointing fingers at mental illnesses..




All budgets are done by the Houses. That is one of the Checks and Balances of British inherited systems. The Executive/King does not control the purse, Parliament/Congree/Senate does.

The rest violates an individual's right to privacy. Just because you're on a watchlist does not mean you broken a law. You're not denied rights as defined by the US Constitution just because you are suspected of something. The state has the legal obligation to prove that you should be denied those rights. Until then, Innocent Until Proven Guilty. Until Proven Guilty, you have all your rights. Otherwise, American citizens should be arming themselves real fast and I mean tanks and artillery.


This was already brought in Congress. The reason it fell apart is because Democrats did not want to include a right to apeal. In other words, it can be brought again with those changes



Same rate of fire? No. Same firepower? Tell me an AK or an AR chamberred for a .50BMG. However, I'm speaking of lethality and if someone would mordernize the SMLE action, then yes, I would pit it against an AK or an AR, especially chambered for a .30-06


By firepower I mean capacity and not caliber (I thought that was the common usage of that term). Bolt actions typically have 10 rounds. Semi-autos can have 30 or more (if using a drum)



The disease is the cry for help and no one listened. As I said, the AR was the cool factor. The kid could have done a lot more damage with a 12 guage pump with 00 buck. Again, Thank God, he didn't think of a suicide vest.


This "disease" needs an afternoon in the prison yard, followed by a lethal injection. Sorry to say that, but American kids are not special. Bullying, divorces, death of parents and other issues exist throughout the world, but kids there do not start killing their fellow students like the American kids do. Why don't we see more troubled kids in Canada, UK, Germany and elsewhere blowing up schools with molotov cocktails?



Again, you have to fit it within existing legislation. After market barrels do exist for pistols.


That framework is already there. Pistols and long guns are already differentiated.



You're joking. Thompsons. MP5, Uzi


Huh? They shoot 9mm and other pistol calibers, not intermediate rounds. And since they have a stock (the Thompsons) they can be regulated under the SBR definition and framework.



Gatling.

First of all you know as well as I do that this is not a revolver action. Second, you mean that someone is going to bring this to school?
45418

antimony
18 Feb 18,, 02:43
Machine lathes and stamps?

Rear locking action. It weakens accuracy over time as compared to front locking actions.


Which telle me that there may not be enough demand for this type of action for manufacturers to invest in th first place



9 pellets have a better chance of hitting your target than a single round and the pump allows you to reacquire your target selection.


What about lethality though? A 5.56 would tumble internally and cause much more damage than the pellet. BTW, firing 00 shots one after the other gets tiring real fast.



We're talking about a kid on adrendelin in close quarters. He was missing more than he hit with the AR. That would not be the same with the 12 gauge.

We can say anything about a skilled shooter. Hell, if it was any military member here, the thinking would be grenades. However, the point remains that he could have done a hell of a lot more damage with other tools. The very fact that everyone is focusing on the ARs is missing the picture.

He was intent on suicide by cop. He just chose an AR instead of a bomb vest and only because bomb vests ain't glorified - yet. It's the suicide by cop you should be focusing on.

I don't know if you remember this, but many years back we had a drunken man trying to break into our house and I recounted that event on WAB. You told me to get a dog.

It occurs to me that an armed security offer with a K9 unit for every school may be what we need, in addition to the protective bariers we talked about earlier.

WABs_OOE
18 Feb 18,, 03:09
There isn't anything special except the fact that they are semi auto designs. Some of them are already blocked for import. Trump has not lifted those bansCentury Arms showed you how they got around it. The only thing about those AKs is that they're cheap, not good.


Sure, they need to be crafted properly. The point is, can I find a way around them. I would bet that mere tax increases would not necessarily violate the 2A and would like to see what the courts say abut that.An EO cannot raise taxes. That is the Houses' job. All an EO can do is raise a whole bunch of paperwork and fees that does nothing to the resale market at gun shows, ie private sales.


Obama also shared data for those receiving federal benefits for mental issues. This was challenged not by the courts but by Trump himself, who did away with that and is now pointing fingers at mental illnesses..Doctor-Patient privledge cannot be violated except in the case when the caretakers feel the patient is about do harm either to self or others. Until that line is crossed, no one is allowed to share anything. Your medical history cannot be opened without a court order.


This was already brought in Congress. The reason it fell apart is because Democrats did not want to include a right to apeal. In other words, it can be brought again with those changesIn other words, a glorified sales tax. That would not be a real obstacle to gun ownership and responsibility.


By firepower I mean capacity and not caliber (I thought that was the common usage of that term). Bolt actions typically have 10 rounds. Semi-autos can have 30 or more (if using a drum)Military men think firepower in terms of fire delivered. A single 155mm howitzer can deliver more firepower in one salvo than 10 AR15s going through 30 mags. But to answer your point, it just means that the kid needs more 10 round clips. At best, an annoyance and I can't see this changing his fire any. It's not like he stopped firing after he ran out. He knew how to reload.


This "disease" needs an afternoon in the prison yard, followed by a lethal injection. Sorry to say that, but American kids are not special. Bullying, divorces, death of parents and other issues exist throughout the world, but kids there do not start killing their fellow students like the American kids do. Why don't we see more troubled kids in Canada, UK, Germany and elsewhere blowing up schools with molotov cocktails?We do see them elsewhere. Suicide bombers. And troubled kids are in Canada, UK, and Germany, and the US as well. They just turned to drugs and alcohol as an escape.

Speaking purely as a percentage, 50 kids doing a school shooting is insignifcant to the number of kids doing drugs and sleeping on the streets. The trajedy they caused maybe greater but the percentage is insignifcant.


That framework is already there. Pistols and long guns are already differentiated.Which again you have to show why I cannot have a .308 semi atuo in polar bear country but I'm allowed a .45ACP. And rule of thumb with polar bears. You don't stop shooting until the bear stops moving.


Huh? They shoot 9mm and other pistol calibers, not intermediate rounds. And since they have a stock (the Thompsons) they can be regulated under the SBR definition and framework.The point was that you allow semi autos in pistols which are mostly hobbiest while denying in the larger rounds where it is necessary for large game. Hunting javelinas is one place where you definetely need a semi auto, especially when they're charging you.


First of all you know as well as I do that this is not a revolver action.The original gatling is based on the revolver. A shot is fired, casing is ejected, a new round is inserted and go through the cycle to be fired again. But again, the technology exists to go outside whatever legal definition you want to come up with.

The reason bump stock is still legal is because no one can get around the current legislation to ban it. I mean, how do you ban a rubber band?

WABs_OOE
18 Feb 18,, 03:31
Which telle me that there may not be enough demand for this type of action for manufacturers to invest in th first placeI've only fired old military .303s. They're nowhere as smoothe as the Remingtons but then the Remingtons were not meant for abuse and bayonet charges. Also, RSA wasn't as industrious pushing hunting rifles as their American and German counterparts. I don't ever recall RSA making a serious dent in the hunting community.

Still, I won't mind seeing new innovations with new metallurgy and computer aided designs.


What about lethality though? A 5.56 would tumble internally and cause much more damage than the pellet.His victim would be bleeding out. We drop bears and moose with 00 shots. Lethality would not be a concern.


BTW, firing 00 shots one after the other gets tiring real fast.Maybe I'm an old gruff with leathered shoulders but I ran through 3 boxes of clay pigeons once getting ready for duck season.


I don't know if you remember this, but many years back we had a drunken man trying to break into our house and I recounted that event on WAB. You told me to get a dog.

It occurs to me that an armed security offer with a K9 unit for every school may be what we need, in addition to the protective bariers we talked about earlier.I thought I had an answer to this but I really don't. This kid was intent on suicide by cop. He wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, otherwise, he would have a getaway car ready or at least somewhere to hide. Like most suicide attempts, he changed his mind once faced with that reality. He didn't wait for the cops to blast his way out. He ran. But he done his damage.

My answer was very specific to an assault threat, an engineer's perspective to persuay the shooter to seek out other softer targets, ie shopping mall, and let someone else take care of the problem. But how do you stop someone walking in with a suicide vest under a jacket?

BTW, you a cat person?

Ironduke
18 Feb 18,, 03:58
Then Thank God that suicide vests don't have a cool factor. At least, not yet.
I think for the active shooters, the psychological empowerment they experience through the act of killing, from their perspective in which they see themselves as aggrieved persons, is a determining factor in the type of weapon they choose. Even though the typical active shooter does not intend to survive, neither do they intend to die immediately. A suicide vest would immediately kill them, denying them the experience of their actions and the visceral feelings of gratification and empowerment they seek.

WABs_OOE
18 Feb 18,, 04:16
I think for the active shooters, the psychological empowerment they experience through the act of killing, from their perspective in which they see themselves as aggrieved persons, is a determining factor in the type of weapon they choose. Even though the typical active shooter does not intend to survive, neither do they intend to die immediately. A suicide vest would immediately kill them, denying them the experience of their actions and the visceral feelings of gratification and empowerment they seek.I can see that point but the counter is to walk in, start shooting, while wearing a suicide vest with a dead man switch.

There are so many ways to think about this and none of this addressed the real problem. Suicide by cop.

Ironduke
18 Feb 18,, 04:45
Suicide by cop is easy enough. Just pull the orange tip out of a toy gun and act threateningly before a cop. Some guy who lived a few miles north of where I lived when I was a teenager did that shooting off a cap gun. Cops shot him dead. Suicide in and of itself is not the sole motivation, or even the primary motivating factor the active shooter has in committing his acts though.

Regardless of other things they could possibly think of to do in addition to just shooting, it doesn't take away from the fact that actually experiencing feelings of empowerment and gratification from their acts is the primary motivator, and being in control. Even in death, they seek to go out on their own terms, whether it's from their own hand or in a shootout - which again brings us back to control.

Bigfella
18 Feb 18,, 05:07
I think for the active shooters, the psychological empowerment they experience through the act of killing, from their perspective in which they see themselves as aggrieved persons, is a determining factor in the type of weapon they choose. Even though the typical active shooter does not intend to survive, neither do they intend to die immediately.

This also explains why the 'substitution' argument falls flat more generally. Guns seem to provide a particular psychological 'hit' that bombs & other methods of mass killing don't. If substitution was a genuine phenomenon there would be a lot more mass killings in Australia, Western Europe & Canada.

WABs_OOE
18 Feb 18,, 05:14
Sorry, the substitution arguement does work. It's called arson

https://www.google.ca/search?q=arson+deaths

Bigfella
18 Feb 18,, 05:45
Yeah, it does. It's called arson

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-03/arson-homicides-on-the-rise-in-australia-institute-criminology/6592448

No it doesn't.


But lead author and QUT forensic criminologist Dr Claire Ferguson told the ABC with so few cases - 123 between 1989 to 2010 - it was hard to talk about trends

.........

The majority of arson-homicides involved one victim (83.2 per cent) and one case involved 15 victims – the Childers Backpackers Hostel fire in 2000.

So, a crime with an average of 6 victims per year, which means that one or two big incidents can completely skew a data set. If you add the 15 dead at Childers & the 10 at Churchill the 11 killed at Quakers Hill you come very close to accounting for that rise in deaths.

According to this article one of the big arson-homicides was a bushfire at Churchill. The people who died in that fire would have been many hundreds or thousands of meters from the arsonist & possibly hours after it was set. It is also worth pointing out that 163 other Victorians died in nearby fires on that same day. We actually have a thread on it somewhere on WAB.

The link between action & consequence here is not remotely comparable to setting a bomb or firing a gun. Neither was the Quakers Hill nursing home fire, where an employee who had been stealing drugs set a fire to hide the crime. The decision to charge an arson as homicide even without clear intent to kill can create a false comparison to a mass shooting.

One last thing - very few mass killings. Only three I can think of since 1996 and only one with clear intent to kill. In an even shorter period prior to 1996 there were over a dozen mass shootings.

WABs_OOE
18 Feb 18,, 06:11
Sorry, if the military is responsible for collateral damage, so is any perpetrator of arson. The intent to kill concrete does not mean we don't kill people. The intent to burn trees does not mean the man is not responsible for deaths.

The man set fire to a forest knowing that people might be in that forest. The man setting fire to the nursing home knows that there are people in that nursing home. The fact that they don't care does not mean they avoided killing people. It just means that killing people was not an obstacle to their goals.

Bigfella
18 Feb 18,, 06:34
Sorry, if the military is responsible for collateral damage, so is any perpetrator of arson. The intent to kill concrete does not mean we don't kill people. The intent to burn trees does not mean the man is not responsible for deaths.

The man set fire to a forest knowing that people might be in that forest. The man setting fire to the nursing home knows that there are people in that nursing home. The fact that they don't care does not mean they avoided killing people. It just means that killing people was not an obstacle to their goals.

Which is precisely my point. When someone picks up a gun & starts shooting people they intend to shoot them. That is the key point of comparison for 'substitution' - there has to be an intent to replicate what would have been possible with a gun. If that intent is absent then the comparison falls at the first hurdle. That doesn't mean those people are not criminally responsible for those deaths, but that is a different issue to what we are discussing.

To take up your first example, that would mean that a drone operator who unintentionally kills a civilian while attempting to kill a terrorist is exactly the same as a soldier at My Lai or a Concentration Camp. That is essentially the difference here - between killing people incidentally to the purpose of the action and taking an action with the specific intent of killing.

WABs_OOE
18 Feb 18,, 06:51
Actually, I was thinking of Hamburg firebombing. The intent was to deny Germany a factory city. The fact that we knew that we were going to kill 10s of 1000s of civilians didn't stop us.

Within context, the person setting fire to the forest and nursing home knew people might die but they went ahead and did it anyway.

antimony
18 Feb 18,, 08:10
Century Arms showed you how they got around it. The only thing about those AKs is that they're cheap, not good.

An EO cannot raise taxes. That is the Houses' job. All an EO can do is raise a whole bunch of paperwork and fees that does nothing to the resale market at gun shows, ie private sales.

WA state has brought in additional paperwork for gun shows too. It has yet to be challenged.


Doctor-Patient privledge cannot be violated except in the case when the caretakers feel the patient is about do harm either to self or others. Until that line is crossed, no one is allowed to share anything. Your medical history cannot be opened without a court order.


This was not about Doctor Patient privilege. It was about data regarding federal benefits. the regulation was already on the books but Trump canceled. Here is the link for reference

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/politics/mental-health-gun-possession-explainer/index.html


In other words, a glorified sales tax. That would not be a real obstacle to gun ownership and responsibility.

Not sure which tax you are referring to. I was referring to stopping people, who are on watchlists, from buying guns. The REpublicans wanted to include an appeals process which the Dems objected to


Military men think firepower in terms of fire delivered. A single 155mm howitzer can deliver more firepower in one salvo than 10 AR15s going through 30 mags. But to answer your point, it just means that the kid needs more 10 round clips. At best, an annoyance and I can't see this changing his fire any. It's not like he stopped firing after he ran out. He knew how to reload.

We do see them elsewhere. Suicide bombers. And troubled kids are in Canada, UK, and Germany, and the US as well. They just turned to drugs and alcohol as an escape.

Speaking purely as a percentage, 50 kids doing a school shooting is insignifcant to the number of kids doing drugs and sleeping on the streets. The trajedy they caused maybe greater but the percentage is insignifcant.


Do you realize that Trump is cutting that budget? Do you not see the hypocrisy?


Which again you have to show why I cannot have a .308 semi atuo in polar bear country but I'm allowed a .45ACP. And rule of thumb with polar bears. You don't stop shooting until the bear stops moving.

The point was that you allow semi autos in pistols which are mostly hobbiest while denying in the larger rounds where it is necessary for large game. Hunting javelinas is one place where you definetely need a semi auto, especially when they're charging you.


From a practical point I accept that but my point is that you cannot necessarily give the 2A as a reason to handle any gun you like. Look at the Heller decision. Even Scalia concedes, while confirming the right to bear arms, that some weapons are unusual outside the military.



The original gatling is based on the revolver. A shot is fired, casing is ejected, a new round is inserted and go through the cycle to be fired again. But again, the technology exists to go outside whatever legal definition you want to come up with.

The reason bump stock is still legal is because no one can get around the current legislation to ban it. I mean, how do you ban a rubber band?

WA state is banning them right now. The bill passed state Senate and is probably going to pass the house.

antimony
18 Feb 18,, 08:16
I've only fired old military .303s. They're nowhere as smoothe as the Remingtons but then the Remingtons were not meant for abuse and bayonet charges. Also, RSA wasn't as industrious pushing hunting rifles as their American and German counterparts. I don't ever recall RSA making a serious dent in the hunting community.

Still, I won't mind seeing new innovations with new metallurgy and computer aided designs.

His victim would be bleeding out. We drop bears and moose with 00 shots. Lethality would not be a concern.

Maybe I'm an old gruff with leathered shoulders but I ran through 3 boxes of clay pigeons once getting ready for duck season.

I thought I had an answer to this but I really don't. This kid was intent on suicide by cop. He wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, otherwise, he would have a getaway car ready or at least somewhere to hide. Like most suicide attempts, he changed his mind once faced with that reality. He didn't wait for the cops to blast his way out. He ran. But he done his damage.


You have had combat training, I have not. Regardless of adrenaline, I think a big Alsatian bounding towards me would make me re-assess my life's choices pretty quick


My answer was very specific to an assault threat, an engineer's perspective to persuay the shooter to seek out other softer targets, ie shopping mall, and let someone else take care of the problem. But how do you stop someone walking in with a suicide vest under a jacket?

BTW, you a cat person?

Nope, I would be a dog person, if I had someone to take care of my dog. Remember our old friend Brig. RayC? If I had been in a position like that I might have had orderlies (sahayaks) taking care of my dogs. There was a hilarious anecdote about this in his collection of stories.

Monash
18 Feb 18,, 10:23
I know that some contributors on this forum have suggested that 'hardening' schools to prevent mass shootings including providing armed security details is the answer to America's problems but with something like 130,000 public/private primary and secondary schools in the country can one of the persons in favor of this idea please explain - assuming each school has a response team of 4 members (& that's the smallest I can imagine while still being effective):

1) Where do you find the trained staff.
2) Who the f *** pays for all this (and would it be registered gun owners by any chance?)

Or would it be taxpayers who don't own guns also have to pay? I mean heck its their children who are being protected as well you know.

I mean you are literally talking about assigning the equivalent of the entire US (regualr)army to school safety patrol.

zraver
18 Feb 18,, 17:40
You are correct when you note that the gun buyback had little to no effect on the level of violent crime in Australia. But that is not the issue. The auto-loader ban was focused on preventing one specific sub-set of violent crime i.e. mass shootings not all violent crime and in that context it has been a spectacular success.

There is zero way to prove that claim. You had a one off event and haven't had one since. Is that due to the ban or your culture. Given the rarity of the event before it happened it would logically point to culture. The fact that your eventual next bad man has to use a truck won't lower the victim count. Several coun tries with very tough gun laws have seen repeated mass killings by both guns and other means.

zraver
18 Feb 18,, 17:48
I know that some contributors on this forum have suggested that 'hardening' schools to prevent mass shootings including providing armed security details is the answer to America's problems but with something like 130,000 public/private primary and secondary schools in the country can one of the persons in favor of this idea please explain - assuming each school has a response team of 4 members (& that's the smallest I can imagine while still being effective):

1) Where do you find the trained staff.

Distribution would be uneven. In some states the number of teachers may be quite high due to the common nature of shooting sports in that location. In other areas it may be extremely hard to find anyone due to no pool of experienced shooters to pull from.


2) Who the f *** pays for all this (and would it be registered gun owners by any chance?)

Most people willing to do it likely already have the gun they would use and at least rudimentary training. Local law enforcement trainers would be the logical training provider as it would both provide commonality of training and help build a unified response framework.


Or would it be taxpayers who don't own guns also have to pay? I mean heck its their children who are being protected as well you know.

I think overall tax payer cost would be far less than hiring a couple of armed security per school. The biggest cost would be in retrofitting doors to be able to lock and making them outward opening so they could not be kicked in.


I mean you are literally talking about assigning the equivalent of the entire US (regualr)army to school safety patrol.

Armed teachers like air marshals are mainly for deterrence not enforcement. It is just part of a holistic approach to hardening schools. It won't stop rampage killers, but will hopefully force them out of the schools.

WABs_OOE
18 Feb 18,, 19:34
WA state has brought in additional paperwork for gun shows too. It has yet to be challenged.Looking at the enforcement, failure to transfer via FFL only results in a fine, not jailtime. Without a national gun registry (good luck with that one), this is almost useless. Violators getting caught are slim and is a slap on the wrist.


This was not about Doctor Patient privilege. It was about data regarding federal benefits. the regulation was already on the books but Trump canceled. Here is the link for reference

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/politics/mental-health-gun-possession-explainer/index.htmlThe specifics is a danger to self or others or mentally incompetent, meaning you cannot survive without guidance, ie danger to self, example, don't know when to feed yourself.

A combat veteran seeking PTSD help from a VA hospital would not be on that list.


I was referring to stopping people, who are on watchlists, from buying guns. The REpublicans wanted to include an appeals process which the Dems objected toThe ACLU is prepared to fight any such legislation. I really don't see how this would pass the SCUS. The Republicans who opposed this is not about setting up an appeal but setting up the due process. They want the due process to prove that you should be denied your consitutional right to be bear arms, ie innocent until proven guilty.


Do you realize that Trump is cutting that budget? Do you not see the hypocrisy?I do but the problem is that for most, men especially, mental health is a cop out, a coward. Even amongst combat veterans, it was looked upon as cowardice. Patton once ordered that anyone claiming shell shock would be charged with cowardice and emptied a hospital. In small armies like the British, Canadian, and Australian, it was a career and retirement killer. Not that you can't get help but you're not doing the work that needs doing and the army will find someone who can.

You, yourself, said the kid deserves an afternoon in a penal yard and a lethal injection.

Mental health is an unseen disease and cost lives. Robin Williams was such a victim and after going through my own episodes, I can see my views before and after. Most obviously, I want my health money going towards stopping heart attacks and not towards a kid who didn't hugged his mommy enough but now, I can recognize that kid was a time bomb and no one recognized it, especially not the kid


From a practical point I accept that but my point is that you cannot necessarily give the 2A as a reason to handle any gun you like. Look at the Heller decision. Even Scalia concedes, while confirming the right to bear arms, that some weapons are unusual outside the military.It's a dangerous society when only government instruments such as the police and the military have access to lethal resources and the citizenry do not. It is not what the people in the military signed up for. The 2A specifically addresses this issue by including the language, well regulated militia.

Contrary to popular belief, semi-auto assault rifles are available to Canadian citizens but you have to jump through hoops to do so but it's no more bureaucratic than getting an Class Protected Clearance.


WA state is banning them right now. The bill passed state Senate and is probably going to pass the house.It's easy to ban the SLIDEFIRE Bump Stock. After all, they have the patten and you can ban the patten but how do ban the concept? Every attempt to ban the concept today sounds like you're trying to ban a rubber band.

1980s
18 Feb 18,, 21:53
Any thoughts / responses to this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxD3o-9H1lY

antimony
19 Feb 18,, 00:41
Distribution would be uneven. In some states the number of teachers may be quite high due to the common nature of shooting sports in that location. In other areas it may be extremely hard to find anyone due to no pool of experienced shooters to pull from.



Most people willing to do it likely already have the gun they would use and at least rudimentary training. Local law enforcement trainers would be the logical training provider as it would both provide commonality of training and help build a unified response framework.



I think overall tax payer cost would be far less than hiring a couple of armed security per school. The biggest cost would be in retrofitting doors to be able to lock and making them outward opening so they could not be kicked in.



Armed teachers like air marshals are mainly for deterrence not enforcement. It is just part of a holistic approach to hardening schools. It won't stop rampage killers, but will hopefully force them out of the schools.

Again with the Air Marshalls. Let's do this - lets get rid of the TSA and all the security infrastructure that actually checks and stops people from gettings arms or explosives into airplanes and rely only on Air Marshalls, because deterrance! Let's see how that goes.

Apparently, rampant hijacking is not happening, not because of the most elaborate security infrastrauture around, but because of some armed guards in the shadows!

Ironduke
19 Feb 18,, 02:41
Sorry, the substitution arguement does work. It's called arson

https://www.google.ca/search?q=arson+deaths
Mass shooters in America, mass stabbers in China, etc. have direct agency over their actions. The feelings of empowerment, gratification, and the exercise of control I believe these people feel when committing their acts are strictly non-vicarious. Causing death through arson is more vicarious and indirect. I don't think inflicting death through arson has the qualities that these people are seeking.

I read a statistic that there are some 1.35 million fires each year in the US, but only ~3000 deaths. Even the statistics you've linked only cite 4.1 deaths per 1000 incidents of arson. While a very small number of incidents of arson can be extremely deadly, it's much more difficult to achieve that practically. And again, I don't think the urges and psychology that drives people into choosing to be active shooters would make them content with sitting back and taking vicarious satisfaction in letting the fire indirectly do the work. They want to be in control, exercising personal agency, experiencing the power over life and death directly.

Ironduke
19 Feb 18,, 02:45
Again with the Air Marshalls. Let's do this - lets get rid of the TSA and all the security infrastructure that actually checks and stops people from gettings arms or explosives into airplanes and rely only on Air Marshalls, because deterrance! Let's see how that goes.

Apparently, rampant hijacking is not happening, not because of the most elaborate security infrastrauture around, but because of some armed guards in the shadows!
Agree with your sentiment. If air marshals were the only defense employed to defend against hijacking, there would have been dozens if not hundreds of copycat hijackings by now. It's estimated that at most perhaps one-half of one percent of domestic flights have air marshals.

zraver
19 Feb 18,, 02:56
Again with the Air Marshalls. Let's do this - lets get rid of the TSA and all the security infrastructure that actually checks and stops people from gettings arms or explosives into airplanes and rely only on Air Marshalls, because deterrance! Let's see how that goes.

Apparently, rampant hijacking is not happening, not because of the most elaborate security infrastrauture around, but because of some armed guards in the shadows!

I haven't advocated that armed teacher alone would stop rampage killers. I had always said they should be included as part of a holistic approach to hardening schools against attacks. Simple fact is, if the doors and other passive defenses fail, its a shooting spree until someone with a gun puts a stop to it. The Florida shooting lasted for 3 minutes and was over minutes before the first cop arrived. Every armed teacher is a classroom that becomes one with active defenses.

WABs_OOE
19 Feb 18,, 03:52
Mass shooters in America, mass stabbers in China, etc. have direct agency over their actions. The feelings of empowerment, gratification, and the exercise of control I believe these people feel when committing their acts are strictly non-vicarious. Causing death through arson is more vicarious and indirect. I don't think inflicting death through arson has the qualities that these people are seeking.11 September.

Ironduke
19 Feb 18,, 04:08
11 September.
Ideologically motivated.

WABs_OOE
19 Feb 18,, 04:13
And their emotions allowed them to carry through with their tasks; probably screaming at the joy of killing infidels they would not see. The feelings of empowerment, gratification, and the exercise of control.

The largeset mass murder in US history without the use of firearms.

antimony
19 Feb 18,, 05:21
I haven't advocated that armed teacher alone would stop rampage killers. I had always said they should be included as part of a holistic approach to hardening schools against attacks. Simple fact is, if the doors and other passive defenses fail, its a shooting spree until someone with a gun puts a stop to it. The Florida shooting lasted for 3 minutes and was over minutes before the first cop arrived. Every armed teacher is a classroom that becomes one with active defenses.

I objected to your bringing in Air Marshalls and deterrance in this.

Now lets talk about armed teachers. I think the Col and others have poinyed out the folly of relying on armed teacher. I have another one. No one volunteers in a school. What do you do? Let the kids be unprotected?

antimony
19 Feb 18,, 05:23
And their emotions allowed them to carry through with their tasks; probably screaming at the joy of killing infidels they would not see. The feelings of empowerment, gratification, and the exercise of control.

The largeset mass murder in US history without the use of firearms.

Did the US sit with their hands tied after that? No, they took precautionary actions, from changing security procedures to luggage allowances and even internal aircraft hardware. Its a continuous moving target. Here we are hearing that we should do nothing

WABs_OOE
19 Feb 18,, 05:41
Did the US sit with their hands tied after that? No, they took precautionary actions, from changing security procedures to luggage allowances and even internal aircraft hardware. Its a continuous moving target. Here we are hearing that we should do nothingAnd F-16s ready to shoot down any airplane full of fuel onto a city neighbourhood instead of the White House. That is not at all reassuring to the people of Washington DC.

The point here is that people have already moved away from firearms for mass murder with all the emotional contents of firearms. Most would be mass murderers just have not clued in yet. Remove their firearms and they will clue in.

tbm3fan
19 Feb 18,, 06:12
I haven't advocated that armed teacher alone would stop rampage killers. I had always said they should be included as part of a holistic approach to hardening schools against attacks. Simple fact is, if the doors and other passive defenses fail, its a shooting spree until someone with a gun puts a stop to it. The Florida shooting lasted for 3 minutes and was over minutes before the first cop arrived. Every armed teacher is a classroom that becomes one with active defenses.

I should get those women teachers and principal I know to come onto this thread just so you can hear their opinion. Believe me your idea is a big no starter with them.

Of course, all that is just one diversion to avoid a ban on assault rifles. The other diversion is that it doesn't work. However, there is absolutely no proof that a ban would or would not work. Simple enough to solve and easy to set up. Ban the damn things for 20 years which will give a good long term study at which point one side will be proven right. However, I suspect you are too scared to implement such a study because you might be proven wrong. That will bring out the third diversion about your 2nd Amendment Right, which in reality is not being infringed.

antimony
19 Feb 18,, 06:45
Looking at the enforcement, failure to transfer via FFL only results in a fine, not jailtime. Without a national gun registry (good luck with that one), this is almost useless. Violators getting caught are slim and is a slap on the wrist.


I agree but now at least there is a legal framework to stop fraudulent purchases where previously there were none for private sales.



The specifics is a danger to self or others or mentally incompetent, meaning you cannot survive without guidance, ie danger to self, example, don't know when to feed yourself.

A combat veteran seeking PTSD help from a VA hospital would not be on that list.


Anyone with an SSN getting federal benefits for mental disorders would be pulled in. I don't know the process for Combat vets



The ACLU is prepared to fight any such legislation. I really don't see how this would pass the SCUS. The Republicans who opposed this is not about setting up an appeal but setting up the due process. They want the due process to prove that you should be denied your consitutional right to be bear arms, ie innocent until proven guilty.


The point is that with the right compromises it would pass. i like the apeals bit too and I wish that be extended to non firearms related cases too. A 4 year old should be able to apeal a travel ban. You are right that this would be challenged in court, but I would like to see how that plays out.



I do but the problem is that for most, men especially, mental health is a cop out, a coward. Even amongst combat veterans, it was looked upon as cowardice. Patton once ordered that anyone claiming shell shock would be charged with cowardice and emptied a hospital. In small armies like the British, Canadian, and Australian, it was a career and retirement killer. Not that you can't get help but you're not doing the work that needs doing and the army will find someone who can.

You, yourself, said the kid deserves an afternoon in a penal yard and a lethal injection.

Mental health is an unseen disease and cost lives. Robin Williams was such a victim and after going through my own episodes, I can see my views before and after. Most obviously, I want my health money going towards stopping heart attacks and not towards a kid who didn't hugged his mommy enough but now, I can recognize that kid was a time bomb and no one recognized it, especially not the kid


Do you distinguish between pure evil and mental health? This guy pulled the alarm to bring out kids so as to be better able to shoot them, moved from floor to floor and room to room and then blended in to escape. He is not your suicide by cop guy. Neither is he getting an insanity defence. Maybe we should have put Saddam in a mental home instead of hanging him...


It's a dangerous society when only government instruments such as the police and the military have access to lethal resources and the citizenry do not. It is not what the people in the military signed up for. The 2A specifically addresses this issue by including the language, well regulated militia.

Contrary to popular belief, semi-auto assault rifles are available to Canadian citizens but you have to jump through hoops to do so but it's no more bureaucratic than getting an Class Protected Clearance.

It's easy to ban the SLIDEFIRE Bump Stock. After all, they have the patten and you can ban the patten but how do ban the concept? Every attempt to ban the concept today sounds like you're trying to ban a rubber band.

Do you draw any lines? If you really believe this, are you comfortable with civilians owning Abrams, Apaches and Raptors if they can afford it? what about missile systems for billionaires?

Many OECD countries do not allow civilians to own military style weapons. Are they all dangerous places?

Lets point out more hypocrisy. There was a CDC team collecting data on gun violence and researching ways to stop/ minimize them. Who do you think cut off their funding? That's right, the Republicans, backed by the NRA. BEfore policymaking, you need data. The NRA does not even want research done in this field. They are monsters.

antimony
19 Feb 18,, 06:48
I should get those women teachers and principal I know to come onto this thread just so you can hear their opinion. Believe me your idea is a big no starter with them.

Of course, all that is just one diversion to avoid a ban on assault rifles. The other diversion is that it doesn't work. However, there is absolutely no proof that a ban would or would not work. Simple enough to solve and easy to set up. Ban the damn things for 20 years which will give a good long term study at which point one side will be proven right. However, I suspect you are too scared to implement such a study because you might be proven wrong. That will bring out the third diversion about your 2nd Amendment Right, which in reality is not being infringed.

An assault rifle is a made up term. The more we use it, the more we show our ignorance and therefore inability to do anything.

WABs_OOE
19 Feb 18,, 06:55
Lets point out more hypocrisy. There was a CDC team collecting data on gun violence and researching ways to stop/ minimize them. Who do you think cut off their funding? That's right, the Republicans, backed by the NRA. BEfore policymaking, you need data. The NRA does not even want research done in this field. They are monsters.Actually, I just figured out our disconnect. Here's a question for you. Supposed you get everything you asked for. Would it stop me?

Monash
19 Feb 18,, 08:00
There is zero way to prove that claim. You had a one off event and haven't had one since. Is that due to the ban or your culture. Given the rarity of the event before it happened it would logically point to culture. The fact that your eventual next bad man has to use a truck won't lower the victim count. Several countries with very tough gun laws have seen repeated mass killings by both guns and other means.

Z, firstly I misspoke when I used the 'preventing' a better term would be 'drastically reduce'. A mass shooting (defined as 3 or more victims could obviously still occur in Australia - God forbid) but even then the chances double digit fatalities or injuries is remote.

You can review the statistics if you like - no double digit or even high single figure shootings since the ban. The problem is it will take some time for this to become indisputable simple because of the rarity of these events in Australia. We are dealing with a much smaller population sample than the US and a much smaller pool of firearms and firearm owners.

As for the rest as I stated an auto loader ban is a solution (or potential solution) to one specific subset of gun crime and not a panacea for all types of gun crime - just the same way that mandatory pool fencing and safety gates can have had a significant impact on back yard drownings but zero impact on drowning stats for beaches, rivers and lakes etc.

I also note that a ban on auto loading rifles in the US even if enforced would also have to be accompanied by restrictions on the ownership of pistols to be fully effective. This is because they have been used in mass shootings in the US in the past and (obviously) in the absence of auto-firing rifles would be the 'weapon of choice' for future would be mass murderers. It follow that a ban on rifles while highly effective at reducing mass shootings at the top end of the scale (think Sandy Hook etc up to Las Vegas) wouldn't necessarily stop mass shootings with casualty figures at the lower end of the scale (think single figures as if this wasn't bad enough). So in summary a long arm ban would have an impact but it wouldn't have the same impact in the US as it does here because pistol ownership is highly regulated in this country. Off the top of my head can't think of one mass shooting in Australia that involved the use of a pistol - and please take home whatever lesson you want from that statistic.

End of the day though as I said - its up to the US if it want's to implement these kind of bans and restrictions because;

A) they are expensive - you can't just arbitrarily seize the weapons, they have to be purchased by the State and almost certainly at a premium over face value which is what happened here.
B) Even if implemented an auto ban would have little or no impact on the other 99+% of gun crime types in the US.

All WAB members outside of the US simply have to watch the impact of these crimes unfolding, it's you and other Americans who have to live with them.

Bigfella
19 Feb 18,, 08:22
There is zero way to prove that claim. You had a one off event and haven't had one since. Is that due to the ban or your culture. Given the rarity of the event before it happened it would logically point to culture. The fact that your eventual next bad man has to use a truck won't lower the victim count. Several coun tries with very tough gun laws have seen repeated mass killings by both guns and other means.

We didn't have a one off event, we had a series of events. There were 13 mass shootings (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2704353/table/tbl1/) (5 or more dead) in the space of 14 years. One of them happened a few minutes from my house and a few hours after my Dad drove past on his daily commute. Two years later another happened slightly further away. Mass shootings were a regular part of life here.

Every time one of these happened we were told that people kill, not guns & had our concerns fobbed off as a 'knee jerk' reaction. Then a young man in Tasmania, the state with some of the most lax gun laws, used a gun he legally purchased to kill 36 people. That wasn't one event, it was one too many. We decided to stop listening to the empty arguments and distractions of the pro-gun lobby and actually do something about it. We decided to ignore the argument that not solving every problem means we shouldn't attempt to solve any. Fuck 'thoughts & prayers', we acted.

Twenty years on not a single repeat and no evidence of 'substitution'. That isn't culture, it is effective legislation. Don't feel that you need to follow suit, but don't misrepresent what happened here simply because you don't want to.

DOR
19 Feb 18,, 10:01
An assault rifle is a made up term. The more we use it, the more we show our ignorance and therefore inability to do anything.

What would you call a short, compact selective-fire weapon that fires a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges, sports a detachable box magazine and is effective to a minimum of 300 meters?

Since WWII, it’s been called an assault rifle.

WABs_OOE
19 Feb 18,, 16:09
Twenty years on not a single repeat and no evidence of 'substitution'. That isn't culture, it is effective legislation. Don't feel that you need to follow suit, but don't misrepresent what happened here simply because you don't want to.Sorry, your statement is completely false. I would agree with you if you said "successful" repeat but Australians did try "substitution." The fact that these perps failed does not mean that they gave up just because of a ban.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Australia

antimony
19 Feb 18,, 16:22
Actually, I just figured out our disconnect. Here's a question for you. Supposed you get everything you asked for. Would it stop me?

Define yourself. A military officer with decades of experience in handling and dismantling explosives combined with tactical training that provides the ability to spot weaknesses in a security system and then forming a plan of attack? Probably not

A troubled teen without access to any of that? Probably. If something is sufficiently difficult or dangerous, many will not do it. Also, it is incorrect to equate the motives of a terrorist with that of killers like this. One wants to ensure (and in his minds, probably his victims) place in heaven for eternity (or whatever it is they believe in), the other is mad because his friends mocked him.

Your approach is essentially the "why bother" approach. If nothing will deter no one, why bother having security systems in the first place? The answer is that these systems and procedures make things progressively more dificult.

If I have murderous thoughts and a gun, I can immediately act on it. If I do not have that that gun, then I will have to think of other ways. I suppose I can take a truck and just ram it inside the school. But if the school has protective barriers then I cannot do that. SO I have to consider something else. And so on it goes. If I am sufficiently motivated, like a soldier or terrorist, then I keep trying. If not, I would probably get distracted and give up. Lives get saved.

WABs_OOE
19 Feb 18,, 16:32
Define yourself. A military officer with decades of experience in handling and dismantling explosives combined with tactical training that provides the ability to spot weaknesses in a security system and then forming a plan of attack? Probably notWhy do you assume that your perp will always be an idiot?


Your approach is essentially the "why bother" approach. If nothing will deter no one, why bother having security systems in the first place? The answer is that these systems and procedures make things progressively more dificult.No. My approach is to do something so that it will stop someone like me. I always assume that whomever I'm facing is as smart as I am, if not smarter.

What you're proposing is not even a speed bump for those who can think things through. You're just proposing "Do something, anything."

WABs_OOE
19 Feb 18,, 17:02
You know something? This is a suburb problem. The one city with an extremely high gang violence, New York City, has metal detectors and they have been effective. Meaning that this is an effective barrier to gang violence within their schools.

antimony
19 Feb 18,, 17:05
What would you call a short, compact selective-fire weapon that fires a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges, sports a detachable box magazine and is effective to a minimum of 300 meters?

Since WWII, it’s been called an assault rifle.

I could not find a standard definition. Here is what Wikipedia says

Semi-automatic firearm capable of accepting a detachable magazine[10][13]
Folding or telescoping (collapsible) stock,[13] which reduces the overall length of the firearm[15]
A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon[13]
Bayonet lug,[13] which allows the mounting of a bayonet
Threaded barrel, which can accept devices such as a flash suppressor, Suppressor,[13] compensator or muzzle brake
Grenade launcher[13]
Barrel shroud, which prevents burning of shooter's arm or hand as a safety device.[citation needed]

What do pisol grips, bayonet lugs etc. have to do with anything? What if the rifle is fed by stripper clips instead of magazines? In the '94 AWB and in suggested replacement, AR styles were banned while Mini 14s in .223 were protected.

Pro-Gun advocates will be looking for loopholes like this to paint the whole idea as absurd. Therefore gun control advocates need to be precise. I am for banning all semi- auto rifles. AS the Col. said, that would affect some hunting rifles, but that is the price that we may have to pay. Maybe we can have an NFA type tax and registration regime for semi-autos, just like we have for full autos now.

WABs_OOE
19 Feb 18,, 17:13
Pro-Gun advocates will be looking for loopholes like this to paint the whole idea as absurd. Therefore gun control advocates need to be precise. I am for banning all semi- auto rifles. AS the Col. said, that would affect some hunting rifles, but that is the price that we may have to pay. Maybe we can have an NFA type tax and registration regime for semi-autos, just like we have for full autos now.Ok, does double barrel fit your description? How about a revolver rifle?

tbm3fan
19 Feb 18,, 20:22
An assault rifle is a made up term.

Well excuse me I'm sorry if I wasn't precise enough for you. Are there better terms, that meet with your approval, to use on this "particular" forum so that you might understand what I was referring to?



The more we use it, the more we show our ignorance and therefore inability to do anything.


So let me get this straight are you now providing a fourth excuse/diversion it is hard to tell? Seems to me everything in this thread is a diversion, while waiting for things to blow over, and then wash, rinse and repeat over and over. I suspect that is the goal for some right up till the day it gets personal.

Mihais
19 Feb 18,, 21:03
What would you call a short, compact selective-fire weapon that fires a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges, sports a detachable box magazine and is effective to a minimum of 300 meters?

Since WWII, it’s been called an assault rifle.

Do you understand what select fire means?

WABs_OOE
19 Feb 18,, 21:04
Do you distinguish between pure evil and mental health? This guy pulled the alarm to bring out kids so as to be better able to shoot them, moved from floor to floor and room to room and then blended in to escape. He is not your suicide by cop guy. Neither is he getting an insanity defence. Maybe we should have put Saddam in a mental home instead of hanging him...If you are attributing this kind of intelligence to this perp, then I submit that your semi-auto ban would not have stopped him.

BTW, this is a pump action .223

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Kalashnikov-KSZ-223-660x330.jpg

As for Saddam, we didn't hanged him. The Iraqis did.


Do you draw any lines? If you really believe this, are you comfortable with civilians owning Abrams, Apaches and Raptors if they can afford it? what about missile systems for billionaires?It's written right into the 2A. Well Regulated Militia, ie Authorized Citizen Soldiers and I would emphasized CITIZEN.


Many OECD countries do not allow civilians to own military style weapons. Are they all dangerous places?Which ones? The only ones that pop out are the Asian countries. The rest all allow semi-auto hunting rifles based on the AK action.

Mihais
19 Feb 18,, 21:08
Why do you assume that your perp will always be an idiot?

No. My approach is to do something so that it will stop someone like me. I always assume that whomever I'm facing is as smart as I am, if not smarter.

What you're proposing is not even a speed bump for those who can think things through. You're just proposing "Do something, anything."


The latest dude used smoke to provoke a fire alarm and had a gas mask(these details make me doubt he was on suicide by cop mission).He also studied response time and police TTP's,according to the police.Definetely not completely idiot.And it is a trend of increasing sophistication among the scum.

Ironduke
19 Feb 18,, 21:13
Looking at Las Vegas, despite all the security and cordons around the concert area, all Paddock had to do was go up to circumvent them all.

Mihais
19 Feb 18,, 22:10
Just curious.How many teenagers die yearly from fentanyl usage?

zraver
20 Feb 18,, 00:27
I should get those women teachers and principal I know to come onto this thread just so you can hear their opinion. Believe me your idea is a big no starter with them.

And they are not all teachers. What exactly are they gonna do if they end up in a rampage killer situation? Call 9-1-1 and hope the killer runs out of bullets before he gets to them. The cops when they get there will have exactly the same fire arms training I am advocating for. Its not gonna be SEAL Team 6 rushing in or even swat, its gonna be beat cops who normally write traffic tickets.


Of course, all that is just one diversion to avoid a ban on assault rifles. The other diversion is that it doesn't work. However, there is absolutely no proof that a ban would or would not work.

Sure there is, its called math. There are 10 million AR-15's in circulation and tens of millions more of other rifles with detachable magazines. The chance of an individual AR-15 or any gun being used for is tiny, a fraction of a fraction of 1%


Simple enough to solve and easy to set up. Ban the damn things for 20 years which will give a good long term study at which point one side will be proven right. However, I suspect you are too scared to implement such a study because you might be proven wrong. That will bring out the third diversion about your 2nd Amendment Right, which in reality is not being infringed.

Even if the attrition rate rate was a million rifles a year you would still have millions in circulation at the end of your 20 year ban. The difference between emptying 60 rounds out of an AR-15 2 clips and 6 clips from a 10 round handgun is less than a couple seconds with even passing familiarity with the weapons.

As for the AR-15 and mag fed rifles in general, they make up a tiny portion of gun crimes and gun murders despite tens of millions being in circulation. You want to paint all gun owners with a very broad brush- profiling if you will. Yet somehow I don't think you'd favor a return to racial profiling minority males and broken window policing which by the way actually did have an impact on crime rates. So yeah, its not about the AR-15, its about guns in general. It doesn't matter why someone wants one, self defense, target shooting, varmint gun, militaria, or just good ol'fashioned FU 2A thats why.

Lets be honest, you don't like gun owners. That is the root of it, its not about saving lives, common sense or anything else but that you don't like gun owners and do not believe that people have a right to enjoy their rights. The Florida shooting wasn't about the AR-15. Its about 3 different levels of government failing. The school expelled him but never alerted the local law enforcement (Baker act), regardless the locals went to his residence 30 times and never invoked the Baker act on their own. The FBI, who can identify who a Russian troll farmer is, couldn't find a kid on Youtube who used his own name. I have advocated policies that would save lives. When and if the next rampage killer emerges, he is going to kill until he is stopped or runs out of bullets. In Florida the killer ran out of bullets and escaped in the confusion before cops were ever on scene. No one and nothing can save the first victims, but how many victims is a number that can be minimized by a faster armed response. I don't care if its cops in schools, or trained armed school staff but until you can put rounds down range at the bad guy he's not gonna stop shooting. Locked doors and darkened rooms help, but they don't stop the attack. In the history of rampage killers, only once has the killing continued after the rampage killer was confronted by an armed response and that guy was a jihadi.

Armed response is the one and only thing we know works to stop attacks. Gun Free zones have not prevented a single attack. No killer has ever pulled up to a school saw the gun free zone sing and gone away to target a gun range. In fat they don't target gun ranges for a reason. In Aurora, Colorado we know for a fact the killer drove past movie theaters that permitted concealed carry to target the one theater that didn't.

I am about what works, not what makes your feelings feel better.

zraver
20 Feb 18,, 00:31
I objected to your bringing in Air Marshalls and deterrance in this.

Its part of a holistic approach.


Now lets talk about armed teachers. I think the Col and others have poinyed out the folly of relying on armed teacher. I have another one. No one volunteers in a school. What do you do? Let the kids be unprotected?

In the schools where no one3 volunteers, are the kids better, worse or the same off as they are right now? There is no down side to cops training teachers to be active defenders of their class rooms. Those same police instructors are training the beat cops that are gonna be rushing in guns blazing if an active shooter shows up. Showing up too late to stop the killing, but with the exact same class of weapons and type of training. There is literally no downside.

Gun Grape
20 Feb 18,, 01:33
Armed response is the one and only thing we know works to stop attacks. Gun Free zones have not prevented a single attack. No killer has ever pulled up to a school saw the gun free zone sing and gone away to target a gun range. In fat they don't target gun ranges for a reason. In Aurora, Colorado we know for a fact the killer drove past movie theaters that permitted concealed carry to target the one theater that didn't.

I am about what works, not what makes your feelings feel better.

The school in Florida had a armed deputy on duty. The Columbine shooting had 2 armed guards on duty.

also this link. Mass shooters don't look for "Gun Free Zones"

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/gun-free-zones-mass-shootings/

And this one

https://everytownresearch.org/mass-shootings/

Of the 133 mass shootings between Jan 2009 and July 2015 only 13% happened in "Gun Free" zones

antimony
20 Feb 18,, 02:00
If you are attributing this kind of intelligence to this perp, then I submit that your semi-auto ban would not have stopped him.

BTW, this is a pump action .223

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Kalashnikov-KSZ-223-660x330.jpg


Thank you, you always challenge us. This is a very interesting design. No for me, but very interesting nonetheless. I look the liberty to check this out and found something similar, based on the AR instead of the AK.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/9/3/review-troy-223-national-sporting-pump-action-rifle/

Here are a couple of paragraphs from the review:


The pump action was smooth and easy to cycle and the stock allowed for a good cheek weld. The rifle's designers included a clever feature that locks the bolt in the open position when the last shot in a magazine is fired. All of the controls worked properly and there were no malfunctions.

Working the pump action definitely took longer than using a semi-auto action. However, the pump is faster than a bolt-action rifle because the shooting hand stays in place on the grip between shots. If you really need to be able to dump a 30-round magazine in 8 seconds or less, then stick to the semi-autos. But if you can get away with about 1 second per shot (which was as fast as I could work it), then the Sporting rifle will definitely do the trick

So there you have it, faster than a bolt action but much slower than a semi-auto. I would say this gives victims a window to run or to tackle him.



As for Saddam, we didn't hanged him. The Iraqis did.


If they did not, would you have put him in a mental home and given him federal benefits? What about KSM and Bin Landen? Maybe they too were "broken men".


It's written right into the 2A. Well Regulated Militia, ie Authorized Citizen Soldiers and I would emphasized CITIZEN.

It is still not clear to me if you would let me (a US citizen civilian) own tanks and missiles or not.



Which ones? The only ones that pop out are the Asian countries. The rest all allow semi-auto hunting rifles based on the AK action.


I would be happy if America starts to regulates firearms the way other Western democracies do. I would still have guns, but maybe would have to jump through some bureaucratic hoops. Fine by me

antimony
20 Feb 18,, 02:04
Its part of a holistic approach.



In the schools where no one3 volunteers, are the kids better, worse or the same off as they are right now? There is no down side to cops training teachers to be active defenders of their class rooms. Those same police instructors are training the beat cops that are gonna be rushing in guns blazing if an active shooter shows up. Showing up too late to stop the killing, but with the exact same class of weapons and type of training. There is literally no downside.

Again, help me understand your policy recommendation. Are we talking handguns or rifles? Are they carried on the body or are they locked up somewhere, to be used only when needed? Live ammo or non lethal rubber bullets? Active shooter and hostage rescue training or regular CCW type training? You and Citanon seem to be talking two different things.

Gun Grape
20 Feb 18,, 02:22
. The school expelled him but never alerted the local law enforcement (Baker act), regardless the locals went to his residence 30 times and never invoked the Baker act on their own. .

As a former paramedic in Florida, I will tell you that the Baker Act is very narrow in scope.

From Wiki,


Specific criteria must be met in order to initiate involuntary examination. Among those criteria are the following elements, that by themselves, do not qualify an individual as having met or meeting the criteria:

Reason to believe that the person has a mental illness; refusal of voluntary examination; the person is unable to determine whether examination is necessary. Criteria are not met simply because a person has mental illness, appears to have mental problems, takes psychiatric medication, or has an emotional outburst. Criteria are not met simply because a person refuses voluntary examination. Criteria are not met if there are family members or friends that will help prevent any potential and present threat of substantial harm.

The criteria, as stated in the statute, mentions a substantial likelihood that without care or treatment the person will cause serious bodily harm in the near future. ("Substantial" means ample, considerable, firm or strong.)

To further clarify this point of substantial likelihood, there must be evidence of recent behavior to justify the substantial likelihood of serious bodily harm in the near future. Moments in the past, when an individual may have considered harming themselves or another, do not qualify the individual as meeting the criteria. ("Near" means close, short, or draws near.)


A post on Youtube, of "I'm going to be a school shooter" doesn't get one Baker Acted.

Also, as a EMT, Paramedic while you have a license stating you are qualified to do specific things, your Ambulance service/Fire Dept/Police Dept is under the sponsorship of a Doctor. That Dr is responsible for making sure your training is up to date and you work under his license. He will decide what he is comfortable having you do under his license.

The Baker Act is not something that is easy to invoke. In many instances of dealing with mentally unstable people, I was only able to invoke the Baker Act once.

Went on a call where a person had ingested a bottle of pills wanting to 'End it all" according to his wife. When I arrived the person was in the bathroom. Admitted to taking the pills. Claimed he changed his mind, stuck his finger down his throat and expelled the pills. Then cleaned up the mess and flushed the residue before we arrived. I saw no indication that the story was true so I told him he would have to take a dose of Ipecac. But in case he had just recently voided his stomach, he could drink a bottle of water first.
He refused, then I layed out the facts and told him we would take him to the ER. He refused transportation.Told me to leave. Wife was leaving. So after consultation with the Dr. I Baker Acted him.

Notice that he met every criteria of the act. It still took a couple minutes with the Dr to invoke the Act.

edit. If the wife was staying I would not have been able to invoke the Act

WABs_OOE
20 Feb 18,, 02:37
So there you have it, faster than a bolt action but much slower than a semi-auto. I would say this gives victims a window to run or to tackle him. I shot a running coyote with 2 shots from a 12 gauge pump. You're asking way too much from a human being receiving fire from down range.


If they did not, would you have put him in a mental home and given him federal benefits? What about KSM and Bin Landen? Maybe they too were "broken men".Above my pay grade. If I accepted their surrender, my job is then to hand them over the MPs and let JAG deal with them.


It is still not clear to me if you would let me (a US citizen civilian) own tanks and missiles or not.WELL REGULATED militia; meaning a chain of command of legal standing. And you cannot have a militia of tanks or missiles without regulated support; ie logistics and combat support. Absent these elements, they're nothing more than illegally armed criminals.


I would be happy if America starts to regulates firearms the way other Western democracies do. I would still have guns, but maybe would have to jump through some bureaucratic hoops. Fine by meI don't know other countries but I do know that Canada/UK/Australia/New Zealand, gun rights are not enshrined into our Consititutions. To us, it is merely privledge like a driver's licence. To Americans, gun ownership is on equal standing with the right to vote. Creating bureaucracy to gun ownership is equal to creating red tape at the voting boothe such as proving you can read before you can vote.

Ironduke
20 Feb 18,, 03:28
WELL REGULATED militia; meaning a chain of command of legal standing. And you cannot have a militia of tanks or missiles without regulated support; ie logistics and combat support. Absent these elements, they're nothing more than illegally armed criminals.
Well regulated in this usage refers to discipline, preparedness, and practice of the individuals comprising the militia, the militia being every able-bodied free man. It has absolutely nothing to do with any chain of command.

WABs_OOE
20 Feb 18,, 03:34
mi·li·tia n.

1. An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.

2. A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.

3. The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.

Ironduke
20 Feb 18,, 03:48
mi·li·tia n.

1. An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.

2. A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.

3. The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.
http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-10-armed-forces/10-usc-sect-311.html

WABs_OOE
20 Feb 18,, 04:04
Does not contradict the meaning of accepted meaning of militia; otherwise, you are describing brigands.

Ironduke
20 Feb 18,, 04:11
Does not contradict the meaning of accepted meaning of militia; otherwise, you are describing brigands.
The militia is simply able-bodied free men. My main point was that well regulated does not mean what you think it does.

WABs_OOE
20 Feb 18,, 04:14
Let's examine the entire 2A

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

In context, a bunch of individually fit, disciplined, prepared men is NOT a militia. It's a gang. Even during those days, everyone knew what a platoon, company, battalion was.

Ironduke
20 Feb 18,, 04:28
In context, a bunch of individually fit, disciplined, prepared men is NOT a militia.
“A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."” -James Madison

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms…" -Richard Henry Lee

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." -George Mason

citanon
20 Feb 18,, 04:54
https://www.ksat.com/news/national/people-are-asking-that-florida-shooting-victim-be-buried-with-military-honors


Peter Wang, a 15-year-old JROTC cadet, died in last week's shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. According to his friends, he was shot repeatedly while holding a door open to let other people escape.

"He died a gentleman holding the door for other students," his classmate Kelsey Friend told CNN.

On Tuesday afternoon Wang will be laid to rest, and thousands of people have signed a White House petition asking for him to be buried with military honors.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sewwoow_RqI

WABs_OOE
20 Feb 18,, 18:37
“A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."” -James Madison

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms…" -Richard Henry Lee

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." -George MasonDisengious, you emphasized the able body portion while ignoring the militia part.

1) A WELL REGULATED MILITIA, composed of (my words: NOT DEFINED by) the body of the people, TRAINED TO ARMS, is the best and most natural defence of a free people

2) A MILITIA WHEN PROPERLY FORMED are in fact the people themselves...and include (my words: meaning other elements must also be present), according to the past and general USUAGE OF THE STATES, all men capable of bearing arms.

The 3rd describes what the rest of the world calls the conscription pool, what you call the Draft.

In all instances though, it is the State that determines its security needs, not individuals. The State has the right to raise militias, not private citizens. Private armies have no legal standing in the US and thus cannot be legally armed with howitzers and tanks.

WABs_OOE
20 Feb 18,, 18:52
In any event, we're getting too caught up on words. Antimony asks why individuals cannot have operational tanks and howitzers. The question is answered. The state determines its security needs, not the individual. The right to bear arms does not extend to determining security needs for the state.

Ironduke
20 Feb 18,, 19:07
US Code:

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
Notice it doesn't say anything about the draft pool, conscription pool, or chain of command. According to law, every male aged 18-45 capable of bearing arms is part of the militia. By default, if you're not in the military, reserve, or guard, you're in the unorganized militia.

I'm not talking about who has the right to call it up or for what purpose. I'm merely stating the fact of what the militia is. It isn't what you think the definition is.

Ironduke
20 Feb 18,, 19:09
In any event, we're getting too caught up on words. Antimony asks why individuals cannot have operational tanks and howitzers. The question is answered. The state determines its security needs, not the individual. The right to bear arms does not extend to determining security needs for the state.
I'm not in disagreement.

tbm3fan
20 Feb 18,, 22:33
Lets be honest, you don't like gun owners.

Well let's be honest in that you don't know diddly. I happen to own three WWII rifles. I'm certainly no expert other than I simply like to shoot WWII bolt action rifles. I see no need for anyone to own a semi-automatic other than to get their jollies one way or the other.

So let's move on to you. Arming teachers pulled out of thin air. Now go out and conduct a poll across the country's teachers to see how many think you have a great idea. Falling that you've got nothing remotely coming close to facts. Oh, and you know facts about AR-15s in circulation and therefore it is your opinion a 20 year ban wouldn't work. Opinion? Where is your 20 year study showing it won't work. Lots of talk, the better to delay, but actually not one long term study to back your opinion.

zraver
21 Feb 18,, 02:24
Again, help me understand your policy recommendation. Are we talking handguns or rifles? Are they carried on the body or are they locked up somewhere, to be used only when needed? Live ammo or non lethal rubber bullets? Active shooter and hostage rescue training or regular CCW type training? You and Citanon seem to be talking two different things.

Teachers who volunteer would be provided law enforcement level fire arms training, carry a pistol with live rounds on person and would be reserve officers when there is a legit threat to life and health on campus with a primary duty to defend the space they occupy when the event happens.

zraver
21 Feb 18,, 02:29
Well let's be honest in that you don't know diddly. I happen to own three WWII rifles. I'm certainly no expert other than I simply like to shoot WWII bolt action rifles. I see no need for anyone to own a semi-automatic other than to get their jollies one way or the other.

So let's move on to you. Arming teachers pulled out of thin air. Now go out and conduct a poll across the country's teachers to see how many think you have a great idea. Falling that you've got nothing remotely coming close to facts. Oh, and you know facts about AR-15s in circulation and therefore it is your opinion a 20 year ban wouldn't work. Opinion? Where is your 20 year study showing it won't work. Lots of talk, the better to delay, but actually not one long term study to back your opinion.

Guess its a good thing the constitution doesn't care if you see or not. By far the biggest killer of kids under 18 is abortion. Guns don't even break the top 10 for causes of mortality in the US.

zraver
21 Feb 18,, 02:32
The school in Florida had a armed deputy on duty. The Columbine shooting had 2 armed guards on duty.

also this link. Mass shooters don't look for "Gun Free Zones"

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/gun-free-zones-mass-shootings/

And this one

https://everytownresearch.org/mass-shootings/

Of the 133 mass shootings between Jan 2009 and July 2015 only 13% happened in "Gun Free" zones

Sorry, anyone who cites Anytown has zero credibility. Even the WaPo said they lied.

astralis
21 Feb 18,, 02:42
anyways this conversation is wholly moot. no, we're not going to arm teachers; no, we're not going to be regulating guns much more significantly after this.

we'll be lucky if there's an universal background check coming out of this.

wouldn't be surprised if this drives more activism among the young, though, and that's to the good.

Burnet
21 Feb 18,, 02:49
When you have a deranged individual in public intent on harming others it is far too late. Banning weapons and arming teachers are both cheap political stunts that don't address the underlying problem. Mental health needs to be brought into the open and addressed. Every one of the shooters mentioned had mental health issues. The kid in Florida was a danger and everyone was aware of it but the authorities didn't understand or have the tools to effectively deal with him. An enlightened and humane form of the old mental institutions where individuals that are a danger to themselves or others could be locked up would be a good start. Parents need to be more involved in their kid's schools and both sides of the aisle need to stop playing politics and pony up the funds to adequately fund mental health programs. I have personal experience working in the schools and one of the things I learned quickly is these troubled kids are easy to identify, but teachers have their hands full and there aren't enough resources to get these kids help.

Gun Grape
21 Feb 18,, 03:43
Sorry, anyone who cites Anytown has zero credibility. Even the WaPo said they lied.

WaPo didn't sat they lie. They do use a different definition for school shooting. They include any time a weapon is discharged on school property whether or not school was in session. The number is wrong in regards to the 5 or more killed definition of mass shootings BUT Everytown doesn't hide their methodology.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.5677ab89a296


Everytown explains on its website that it defines a school shooting as “any time a firearm discharges a live round inside a school building or on a school campus or grounds.”

other quotes fro the WaPo article


Gun violence is a crisis in the United States, especially for children, and a huge number — one that needs no exaggeration — have been affected by school shootings. An ongoing Washington Post analysis has found that more than 150,000 students attending at least 170 primary or secondary schools have experienced a shooting on campus since the Columbine High School massacre in 1999. That figure, which comes from a review of online archives, state and federal enrollment figures and news stories, is a conservative calculation and does not include dozens of suicides, accidents and after-school assaults that have also exposed youths to gunfire.

and this


What is not in dispute is gun violence’s pervasiveness and its devastating impact on children. A recent study of World Health Organization data published in the American Journal of Medicine that found that, among high-income nations, 91 percent of children younger than 15 who were killed by bullets lived in the United States.

And the trends are only growing more dire.

On average, two dozen children are shot every day in the United States, and in 2016 more youths were killed by gunfire — 1,637 — than during any previous year this millennium.

zraver
21 Feb 18,, 04:06
WaPo didn't sat they lie. They do use a different definition for school shooting. They include any time a weapon is discharged on school property whether or not school was in session. The number is wrong in regards to the 5 or more killed definition of mass shootings BUT Everytown doesn't hide their methodology.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.5677ab89a296



other quotes fro the WaPo article



and this

Most of the youths killed were bangers killed by other bangers using guns already prohibeted to them by federal law over drugs also illegal under federal law. What exactyl is more law going to do? Broken windows policing was working, but Holder and Lynch put the kibash on that.

xerxes
21 Feb 18,, 04:51
Maybe i am just a Liberal from Canada, brainwashed by the latte-sipping Leftist media... but i just cannot get why it is OK for people with questionable background (aka crazy moth***ckers) to be able to purchase firearms like candies.

Thoughts and preyers are good, but perhaps best to invest in tracking/stopping these crazies ... than building a wall with Mexico.
That is just me looking in as an outsider.

antimony
21 Feb 18,, 05:52
Teachers who volunteer would be provided law enforcement level fire arms training, carry a pistol with live rounds on person and would be reserve officers when there is a legit threat to life and health on campus with a primary duty to defend the space they occupy when the event happens.

That is not the recommendaton of Republican Legislators who are also recommending guns in the hands of teachers. Even Citanon, on this board, thinks that armed teachers should be armed with long guns. Incidentally, how would you feel going up with a pistol against an active shooter armed with an AR-15 or an AK?

antimony
21 Feb 18,, 06:13
Guess its a good thing the constitution doesn't care if you see or not. By far the biggest killer of kids under 18 is abortion. Guns don't even break the top 10 for causes of mortality in the US.

Abortion = kids murder is your opinion. No more, no less. Many don't believe it and the laws certainly do not support it.

Kids Murder = Kids Murder. this is something that everyone believes and is supported by law.

However, if indeed abortion is so painful to you guys then it points to the depravity of Republicans/ conservatives that they try to push women down the path of abortions by rejecing education and contraception.

WABs_OOE
21 Feb 18,, 06:48
Maybe i am just a Liberal from Canada, brainwashed by the latte-sipping Leftist media... but i just cannot get why it is OK for people with questionable background (aka crazy moth***ckers) to be able to purchase firearms like candies.

Thoughts and preyers are good, but perhaps best to invest in tracking/stopping these crazies ... than building a wall with Mexico.
That is just me looking in as an outsider.The same reason why crazies can vote. It's their right.

Americans have gone through wars (Independence and their Civil War) for the right to vote. It's a cultural backlash now to try to deny them the tools that won them that right.

antimony
21 Feb 18,, 08:04
The same reason why crazies can vote. It's their right.

Americans have gone through wars (Independence and their Civil War) for the right to vote. It's a cultural backlash now to try to deny them the tools that won them that right.

America has one of the most inconsistent regimes for voting. Active voter suppression is a hobby with the Republicans. They know higher voter turnout will hurt them. That is why they try to suppress it. They even say so

This is a letter by a Montana GOP official

http://newstalkkgvo.com/files/2017/02/ESSMAN-LETTER-TO-GOP.pdf


Vote-by-mail is designed to increase participation rates of lower propensity voters. Democrats in Montana perform better than Republican
candidates among lower propensity voters and Republican candidates do better among higher propensity voters.

Gun Grape
21 Feb 18,, 11:06
Most of the youths killed were bangers killed by other bangers using guns already prohibeted to them by federal law over drugs also illegal under federal law. What exactyl is more law going to do? Broken windows policing was working, but Holder and Lynch put the kibash on that.


Stopped because there was no evidence that it worked.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/the-problem-with-broken-windows-policing/

And the crime rate continues to decline


Teachers who volunteer would be provided law enforcement level fire arms training, carry a pistol with live rounds on person and would be reserve officers when there is a legit threat to life and health on campus with a primary duty to defend the space they occupy when the event happens.

So your going to make them reserve officers? Who pays for their school? In the State of Florida you are required to complete a 770hr course to get your basic law enforcement certification. How many teachers have that much time on their hands?
Its a 9 month course Mon-Thurs and Sats. 4 hours per session

astralis
21 Feb 18,, 14:39
ah, the paranoid side of right-wing politics, at full bore.

Right-Wing Media Uses Parkland Shooting as Conspiracy Fodder

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/business/media/parkland-shooting-media-conspiracy.html

Right-Wing Media Uses Parkland Shooting as Conspiracy Fodder

Feb. 20, 2018

The teenagers of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., who a week ago lost 17 of their classmates and school staff members in a mass shooting, have emerged as passionate advocates for reform, speaking openly of their anger in the hope of forcing a reckoning on guns.

But in certain right-wing corners of the web — and, increasingly, from more mainstream voices like Rush Limbaugh and a commentator on CNN — the students are being portrayed not as grief-ridden survivors but as pawns and conspiracists intent on exploiting a tragedy to undermine the nation’s laws.

In these baseless accounts, which by Tuesday had spread rapidly on social media, the students are described as “crisis actors,” who travel to the sites of shootings to instigate fury against guns. Or they are called F.B.I. plants, defending the bureau for its failure to catch the shooter. They have been portrayed as puppets being coached and manipulated by the Democratic Party, gun control activists, the so-called antifa movement and the left-wing billionaire George Soros.

The theories are far-fetched. But they are finding a broad and prominent audience online. On Tuesday, the president’s son Donald J. Trump Jr. liked a pair of tweets that accused David Hogg, a 17-year-old who is among the most outspoken of the Parkland students, of criticizing the Trump administration in an effort to protect his father, whom Mr. Hogg has described as a retired F.B.I. agent.

Mr. Hogg, the high school’s student news director, has become a sensation among many liberals for his polished and compelling television interviews, in which he has called on lawmakers to enact tougher restrictions on guns. Just as quickly, Mr. Hogg attracted the disdain of right-wing provocateurs like The Gateway Pundit, a fringe website that gained prominence in 2016 for pushing conspiracies about voter fraud and Hillary Clinton.

In written posts and YouTube videos — one of which had more than 100,000 views as of Tuesday night — Gateway Pundit has argued that Mr. Hogg had been coached on what to say during his interviews. The notion that Mr. Hogg is merely protecting his father dovetails with a broader right-wing trope, that liberal forces in the F.B.I. are trying to undermine President Trump and his pro-Second Amendment supporters.

Others offered more sweeping condemnations. Alex Jones, the conspiracy theorist behind the site Infowars, suggested that the mass shooting was a “false flag” orchestrated by anti-gun groups. Mr. Limbaugh, on his radio program, said of the student activists on Monday: “Everything they’re doing is right out of the Democrat Party’s various playbooks. It has the same enemies: the N.R.A. and guns.”

By Tuesday, that argument had migrated to CNN. In an on-air appearance, Jack Kingston, a former United States representative from Georgia and a regular CNN commentator, asked, “Do we really think — and I say this sincerely — do we really think 17-year-olds on their own are going to plan a nationwide rally?” (He was quickly rebuked by the anchor Alyson Camerota.)

Conspiracies, wild and raw online, are often pasteurized on their way into the mainstream. A subtler version of the theory appeared Tuesday on the website of Bill O’Reilly, the ousted Fox News host. Mr. O’Reilly stopped short of saying the students had been planted by anti-Trump forces. But, he wrote: “The national press believes it is their job to destroy the Trump administration by any means necessary. So if the media has to use kids to do that, they’ll use kids.”

Some of those who have been spreading the conspiracies are facing consequences.

Benjamin Kelly, an aide to a Florida state representative, Shawn Harrison, emailed a Tampa Bay Times reporter on Tuesday accusing Mr. Hogg and a classmate, Emma Gonzalez, of being actors that travel to the sites of crises.

Mr. Kelly was soon fired.

“I made a mistake whereas I tried to inform a reporter of information relating to his story regarding a school shooting,” Mr. Kelly tweeted. “I meant no disrespect to the students or parents of Parkland.” His boss, Mr. Harrison, said on Twitter that he was “appalled” by Mr. Kelly’s remarks.

But by Tuesday evening, a new conspiracy was dominating Gateway Pundit’s home page. “Soros-Linked Organizers of ‘Women’s March’ Selected Anti-Trump Kids to Be Face of Parkland Tragedy,” read the headline. Within an hour, it had been shared on Facebook more than 150 times.

Albany Rifles
21 Feb 18,, 15:22
Wtgf?!?!?

DOR
21 Feb 18,, 15:52
Do you understand what select fire means?

Yes.
Next question?