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DOR
02 Oct 17,, 11:53
First impression is a lone, local asshole.

Las Vegas strip shooting: More than 20 dead, 100 injured after gunman opens fire near Mandalay Bay casino

http://abcnews.go.com/US/vegas-strip-shooting-20-dead-100-injured-gunman/story?id=50223240

More than 20 people were killed and 100 injured when what appears to be a lone gunman opened fire from a perch high up in the the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino in Las Vegas Sunday night, police said.

The "nonstop gunfire," according to one witness, sent bystanders outside the resort on the Vegas strip ducking for cover and fleeing for their lives. Tourists hid in their hotel rooms and flights headed into the McCarran International Airport were held elsewhere.

Bystanders sprang into action, caring for the wounded and at least one described someone dying in their arms.

Videos filmed by onlookers gave a window into the chaos that ensued, with some thinking that fireworks were going off. The final night of the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival was taking place across the street from Mandalay Bay when the shooting took place and concertgoers were caught off-guard.

In the wake of the shooting, the Las Vegas Police Department said the suspected gunman, was believed to be a local, was on 32nd floor of Mandalay Bay hotel. Police responded to the scene, engaged him and he is now dead. Officials said they did not believe there were any more shooters.

Authorities were looking for a companion of the shooter, Marilou Danley, as well as two vehicles, a Hyundai Tucson and Chrysler Pacifica, both with Nevada plates. At least two police officers were hospitalised.

"We were just at the concert there, and Jason Aldean was playing," one of the concertgoers, named Mike Cronk, 48, a retired teacher, told ABC News. "Kinda sounded like some fireworks going off. I think there was the first kinda volley, and then all of the sudden second volley. My buddy's like 'I just got hit, ya know.' He got hit three times. Then people started diving for the ground. And it just continued."

"It was pretty much chaotic," Cronk continued. "Lots of people got hit. ...It took a while to get him out. We had to get him over the fence and hiding under the stage for a while, ya know, to be safe. And finally we had to move him because he had three chest wounds."

Cronk said his group were finally able to track down an ambulance "and basically the one guy ended up dying in my arms because he was bleeding," he said. "And my buddy got in there. We got three more people in the ambulance. ... But I just got a message from my buddy -- and he's going to be okay."

As bursts of gunfire crackled in the air, people outside of the casino ducked and screamed, according to video filmed by witnesses.

"We're going to get trampled if we don't go," a bystander could be heard saying in a dramatic video of the incident. Confusion appeared to abound as those outside fled the scene with another person saying, "it's fireworks."

Michelle Leonard, who was located in a booth near the main entrance of the arena, said the shooting just “kept going nonstop.”

Leonard said “mass confusion” unfolded as people tried to flee the scene. She said the shooting seemed like it went on for more than a minute.

“I had no idea of where it was coming from or where to run to," Leonard said.

She said she injured her leg as she tried to escape.

Another witness, Jake Freeman, said he was standing on the rooftop of a nearby hotel when the shooting broke out.

“I had a bird’s-eye view” of the shooting, Freeman said in a phone interview with ABC News. He said he saw "crowds of people running” as people “dropped to the ground.”

“At the moment we didn’t realize that they were being shot,” he said.

citanon
02 Oct 17,, 14:39
RIP to the victims.

From the video you can hear the shots. It sounds like the guy was using fully automatic weapons:


https://youtu.be/zodiGpCdBzQ

Oracle
02 Oct 17,, 17:31
OMG. RIP. 400+ injured is a very big number. I pray they recover quickly.

Double Edge
02 Oct 17,, 18:16
ISIS is claiming this one even though the shooters family told media he has no religious affiliations

SteveDaPirate
02 Oct 17,, 18:24
To me, the audio sounds more like slide fire or bump fire than the kind of consistency I'd expect from full auto.

Latest numbers are 58+ dead and 515 hospitalized.

kato
02 Oct 17,, 18:34
To me, the audio sounds more like slide fire or bump fire than the kind of consistency I'd expect from full auto.
The video was taken - and the victims situated - 400m slant distance from the shooter. In the video you here both the shots in the background and some more scattered noiseover, possibly including ricochet. The shots are very consistent in relatively long bursts.

citanon
02 Oct 17,, 20:53
Video from the roof of the Mandalay:

https://www.facebook.com/jason.hartman/posts/10154926717200544?pnref=story

It sounds like fully automatic weapon to me.

zraver
03 Oct 17,, 04:52
To me, the audio sounds more like slide fire or bump fire than the kind of consistency I'd expect from full auto.

Latest numbers are 58+ dead and 515 hospitalized.

I agree the most likely explanation is bumpfire.

As far as I know this is the single biggest death of Americans from a single gun position in history. This guy did more damage than any individually sighted MG42 on Omaha Beach. He rivals the the best of the Kaiser's maxim gunners on the Somme. He had a perfect elevated enfilade position with good lighting of the kill box and tightly massed victims.

Double Edge
03 Oct 17,, 05:19
Bump fire looks likely


https://www.thetrace.org/rounds/las-vegas-mass-shooting-use-automatic-weapon-rifle/

DOR
03 Oct 17,, 11:38
If every person at that concert exercised his/her 2nd Amendment "right" to be armed to the teeth in a public place, how many more people would have died?

Double Edge
03 Oct 17,, 13:14
As far as I know this is the single biggest death of Americans from a single gun position in history. This guy did more damage than any individually sighted MG42 on Omaha Beach. He rivals the the best of the Kaiser's maxim gunners on the Somme. He had a perfect elevated enfilade position with good lighting of the kill box and tightly massed victims.
Yes, its pretty damn hard to shoot people who are running. Easier if they are massed and cannot easily run away

Thinking back to Bombay in 2008, 10 shooters with assault rifles making their way across the city only managed 168, a quarter the hit rate

Earlier we got hit with high explosive bombs, three digits, then the high explosive became hard to find. So they used more bombs but lower in intensity. The numbers fell, mid two digits and further falling couldn't go higher with subsequent attacks. As the attacks increased the ring became more vulnerable and eventually ceased to exist

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle

Bastille day Nice. No guns, just a truck. Got 84

That's the new way. This shooter was old school i doubt his record will be beaten for a long time. I didn't know automatic weapons are unaffordable in the US, that point doesn't come across in the usual anti-gun rhetoric i read

SteveDaPirate
03 Oct 17,, 16:20
Looks like it was probably bump fire after all.

https://apnews.com/e74a33083fb84b1b94c1ce3da986fd4f/Gunman-had-'bump-stock'-device-that-could-speed-fire



If every person at that concert exercised his/her 2nd Amendment "right" to be armed to the teeth in a public place, how many more people would have died?

I don't think it would have made any difference, the people at the concert probably had no idea where the shooter was until it was over. Most of the reports I heard indicated that people assumed the sound was fireworks until they actually saw people around them bleeding.

Oracle
03 Oct 17,, 17:31
Why would a mentally healthy individual, a millionaire as his brother described him, without any radicalization do this horrible thing and then take his own life.

citanon
03 Oct 17,, 19:17
Looks like it was probably bump fire after all.

https://apnews.com/e74a33083fb84b1b94c1ce3da986fd4f/Gunman-had-'bump-stock'-device-that-could-speed-fire




I don't think it would have made any difference, the people at the concert probably had no idea where the shooter was until it was over. Most of the reports I heard indicated that people assumed the sound was fireworks until they actually saw people around them bleeding.

Reports seem to indicate ONE bump fire stock, but multiple other guns that may have been modified for full auto.

Bumpfiring has bad consequences for accuracy and I'd imagine would be physically very tiring. It would be difficult to maintain long sustained automatic fire bursts on a target area 500 yards away, even with the help of tripods. He kept firing for over 20 min, at one point firing 280 rounds at 90 rounds/s.

IMO most likely setup is multiple full auto weapons on stands, with the guy alternating between the rifles to allow them to cool between firing.

Edit: no I could be wrong. The actual reported firing rate was 280 rounds over 30 seconds, which would make for 9 rounds per second, which is doable with bump fire.

snapper
03 Oct 17,, 19:21
Maybe signing that Executive order that made it easier for people with a history of mental disorders to buy guns was not so wise.

SteveDaPirate
03 Oct 17,, 21:06
Reports seem to indicate ONE bump fire stock, but multiple other guns that may have been modified for full auto.

Bumpfiring has bad consequences for accuracy and I'd imagine would be physically very tiring. It would be difficult to maintain long sustained automatic fire bursts on a target area 500 yards away, even with the help of tripods. He kept firing for over 20 min, at one point firing 280 rounds at 90 rounds/s.

IMO most likely setup is multiple full auto weapons on stands, with the guy alternating between the rifles to allow them to cool between firing.

Edit: no I could be wrong. The actual reported firing rate was 280 rounds over 30 seconds, which would make for 9 rounds per second, which is doable with bump fire.

An accurate rifle can usually put a grouping within 1 MOA and at 1200 feet 1 MOA is represented by a 4" target. I'll grant you that bump fire isn't going to be particularly accurate, but he's not shooting a 4" target either. His target was a crowd of 22,000 packed into an ~ 800' x 500' area.

It sounds like he probably had the means to modify a firearm for full auto if he was determined to do so, but a $99 bump fire stock would be a lot less hassle on his part and might be more achievable than expensive firearm modifications if he had suddenly found himself in arrears to a Vegas casino.

So far that's the only really plausible motive I've heard for the guy. Even that seems shaky however, since you'd think if he felt robbed by the casinos he'd direct his ire towards them rather than a crowd of concert attendees.

Double Edge
03 Oct 17,, 21:11
So far that's the only really plausible motive I've heard for the guy. Even that seems shaky however, since you'd think if he felt robbed by the casinos he'd direct his ire towards them rather than a crowd of concert attendees.
Agree

Last time we got a retiree firing it was aimed at a congressman for advocating taking away obama care.

citanon
03 Oct 17,, 21:20
I think he might have been a high functioning psychopath who decided to go out with a bang.

Maybe he lost his money, maybe he split with his girlfriend, maybe he found out he had terminal cancer. Heck, maybe he had an undiagnosed brain tumor that changed his personality.

I suspect whatever answers we find about his motive will make no sense to normal minds.

His father was a notorious criminal psychopath.

surfgun
04 Oct 17,, 02:38
How the "H" would a tripod and a bump fire stock be compatible? When they are not.

citanon
04 Oct 17,, 02:54
How the "H" would a tripod and a bump fire stock be compatible? When they are not.

Pics from the scene show bipods. Not sure if tripods was just early misreporting.

Also no firm information on whether some of his weapons were actually full auto or not.

Monash
04 Oct 17,, 08:51
Anyone care to guess how long it will take before the far right conspiracy industry starts piling in? I would say maybe 24 more hours or so - if we're lucky.

Bigfella
04 Oct 17,, 09:23
Anyone care to guess how long it will take before the far right conspiracy industry starts piling in? I would say maybe 24 more hours or so - if we're lucky.

Already happening according to people I talk to, though not just 'far right'. There is a point of detachment from reality where 'right' and 'left' cease to function as labels.

Double Edge
04 Oct 17,, 10:17
Anyone care to guess how long it will take before the far right conspiracy industry starts piling in? I would say maybe 24 more hours or so - if we're lucky.

Post some examples if you see any as i don't understand what the far right can exploit from this

The anti-gun lobby however is going well

Monash
04 Oct 17,, 13:04
Will do. FYI I was thinking along the lines of some of the poisonous Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists out there. I won't quote//link them here. You can look them up yourself if your curious.

snapper
04 Oct 17,, 13:35
An accurate rifle can usually put a grouping within 1 MOA and at 1200 feet 1 MOA is represented by a 4" target. I'll grant you that bump fire isn't going to be particularly accurate, but he's not shooting a 4" target either. His target was a crowd of 22,000 packed into an ~ 800' x 500' area.

It sounds like he probably had the means to modify a firearm for full auto if he was determined to do so, but a $99 bump fire stock would be a lot less hassle on his part and might be more achievable than expensive firearm modifications if he had suddenly found himself in arrears to a Vegas casino.

So far that's the only really plausible motive I've heard for the guy. Even that seems shaky however, since you'd think if he felt robbed by the casinos he'd direct his ire towards them rather than a crowd of concert attendees.


Perhaps less info for the next wandering nutter on the target capacity?

Double Edge
04 Oct 17,, 16:42
Will do. FYI I was thinking along the lines of some of the poisonous Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists out there. I won't quote//link them here. You can look them up yourself if your curious.

Ah, now i understand what you mean, there are people who insist the Sandy Hook school shootings never happened (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-39194035). Or that the official narrative is suspicious. Therefore the same pattern applies here too. The usual warning signs are there lol


Pozner doesn't want to disclose the city where he now lives. He's had death threats and has moved several times in recent years. Leonard Pozner has been targeted because he's fought back against trolls and conspiracy theorists who make sweeping and false allegations about the murder of his son.

Didn't realise he'd be targeted. This rings a bell for me, in India we've had three rationalists murdered over the years and i would not be surprised if the same game was at play. Getting in the way of business.

Oh there are so many now on youtube, false flag shooting bla bla people rushing to post 'the truth' about mandalay bay etc

In the youtube era, this nonsense will actually increase, just see the view counts and subscriber counts for the people putting this crap out. Money to be had if you have an imagination. Bulk are in english but the idea can be used in other languages for local events. It's here to stay : (

this board was so very helpful with debunking this nonsense over ten years ago for me. These days its called fake news.

eg

https://youtu.be/0Fp3xgmQgiA

Alt media is where its at : D

kato
04 Oct 17,, 19:08
Perhaps less info for the next wandering nutter on the target capacity?
Please, there's easier ways to cause mass casualties in a crowd on a similar level without even exposing yourself.

*points broadly at PIRA remote-controlled home-built mortar attacks*

SteveDaPirate
05 Oct 17,, 21:09
Perhaps less info for the next wandering nutter on the target capacity?

To build on what Kato noted:

The Las Vegas shooter was a pilot who personally owned a couple of aircraft.

It makes me kind of sick to even imagine it, but if his only goal was to maximize the number of people he killed at the concert and didn't object to ending his life in the process, he could have taken off from McCarran International Airport (about a mile away from the concert) then immediately turned around and crashed into the crowd with a full load of fuel.

That would have been horrific on a whole different level.

I think what makes his attack resonate so strongly in the US is that he didn't use anything particularly exotic. Any idiot could buy a rifle from the local Wal-Mart, order a bump-fire stock with free 2 day shipping, and go shoot up a concert, rally, or county fair this weekend if they were so inclined.

Flying planes, or building mortars or bombs would be more effective of course, but all those require some modicum of specialized knowledge and planning the average person doesn't generally possess.

On the other hand, 10 year old kids can and do shoot rifles in the US, so imagining the crazy neighbor who lives down the block going out and killing a bunch of people no longer seems quite so far fetched.

Double Edge
05 Oct 17,, 21:28
What missing in this story is motive

No statement. Nothing

Bigfella
06 Oct 17,, 10:10
Post some examples if you see any as i don't understand what the far right can exploit from this

The anti-gun lobby however is going well

This thread might provide some examples. The conspiracy theorists have got their teeth into this & are off. This stuff is all over the net already & will be creeping into Breitbart etc. soon enough (I assume Infowars has already started). Welcome to the era of just making up your own facts.

Monash
30 Oct 17,, 04:31
And it came to pass as was foretold by the ancients:


http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026159/Conspiracy-theorists-attack-Las-Vegas-massacre-survivor.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026159/Conspiracy-theorists-attack-Las-Vegas-massacre-survivor.html)

Double Edge
30 Oct 17,, 18:02
And it came to pass as was foretold by the ancients:


http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026159/Conspiracy-theorists-attack-Las-Vegas-massacre-survivor.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026159/Conspiracy-theorists-attack-Las-Vegas-massacre-survivor.html)

Like clockwork, same pattern as with Sandy Hook survivors

Usually conspiracy theories thrive when there is a lack of information. Is that really the case here ?

The only thing i don't have is a motive, otherwise everything else seems transparent

Monash
31 Oct 17,, 01:21
Yes, the problem is that the motive as such may never be discovered. If authorities have gone so far as to request a forensic dissection of the shooter's brain in search of a potential underlying organic cause then they are really clutching at straws. Despite what appear to have been exhaustive enquiries to date the motive alas remains a mystery.

And of course even if they do eventually find one it will do nothing to stop all those conspiracy 'cultists' in their tracks. I mean if you can really believe it's possible for one of the victims to 'fake' being shot in the head you are a lost cause as far as reality is concerned.