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griff3n0
08 Oct 03,, 21:16
OK after watching the news here I was enjoying the NEWS articles and reports coming out of the US in reference to the California Election for Gov.

I was surprised to find out that there was 155 canidates for Gov and yet only 3 were really give a chance to put themselves forward to the public on TV etc from what I could see. The report only mentioned the main 3 and only referered to the rest of the canidates as "The other Canidates" Not one mention of who they were or what they stood for.

Is this democracy? or is it just the richest gets the TV time?

Here in New Zealand, every party or canidate gets air time on all radio states and TV channels. Even the Idoit parties.


Now an interesting point that has just happened here was the US Ambassador trying to give a speech at Victoria Univesity here stating NZ wont get any free trade deals or any other big deals until we remove our Anti-Nuke policies, which ban all Nuclear powered or armed vessals and aircraft from NZ and her waters.

I can tell you now that NZ wont be dropping that policy, it was put into place by the Prime minister and is backed by nearly 80% of the population.

Is this the US telling us how to run our own nation?

TopHatter
08 Oct 03,, 21:33
Well no, the United States has never been a democracy. The US practices a republic form of government, wherein you have to kind of work your way to the top (or be a celebrity) of the political heap.
Theres more to it, but gotta get back to work

Ironduke
08 Oct 03,, 21:35
The US doesn't have state-owned TV and radio. Private corporations (imo) have no obligation to do as state-owned media does in New Zealand.

Praxus
08 Oct 03,, 21:39
The United States is not a democracy, in fact our founding fathers denounced it as the most vile form of government, worst then Aristrocracy and Monarchy. Democracy is the notion of majority rule. It is for all intensive purposes the tyranny of the majority. Aristotle I believe was killed by the will of the majority in Ancient Athens. The United States is Federal Constitutional Republic. Federal means the power is devided among the States and the US Government. Constitutional means even the Government is subjected to the rule of law(the constitution). States write their constitution and as long as it does not violate the rights layed out in the US Constitution their constitution is allowed.

I do have a problem with recall elections because it leans more towards democracy were the majority can do whatever it pleases. Your argument is ass backwards because the problem is that we are becoming more democratic and we are abandoning the Repuplic we were founded as.


Here in New Zealand, every party or canidate gets air time on all radio states and TV channels. Even the Idoit parties.

In other words the Government violates the rights of it's citizens to private property and free speech just to have equal air time. The objective of Government is to protect our rights, not to strip them away for such a stupid notion.


Now an interesting point that has just happened here was the US Ambassador trying to give a speech at Victoria Univesity here stating NZ wont get any free trade deals or any other big deals until we remove our Anti-Nuke policies, which ban all Nuclear powered or armed vessals and aircraft from NZ and her waters.

In other words 80% of your population is ignorant about how Nuclear Powered Submarines and Aircraft Carriers work. So they fear it for no reason. So they sacrifice free trade with the largest market in the world, thats real brilliant.

Nuclear weapons can't just randomly detonate, the explosive has to explode all at the exact same time for fission to take place. This can not happen by accident.

Stinger
08 Oct 03,, 21:46
Originally posted by griff3n0
Now an interesting point that has just happened here was the US Ambassador trying to give a speech at Victoria Univesity here stating NZ wont get any free trade deals or any other big deals until we remove our Anti-Nuke policies, which ban all Nuclear powered or armed vessals and aircraft from NZ and her waters.

I can tell you now that NZ wont be dropping that policy, it was put into place by the Prime minister and is backed by nearly 80% of the population.

Is this the US telling us how to run our own nation? All the US is telling you in a nutshell is, if you don't scratch our back we wont scratch yours.

griff3n0
08 Oct 03,, 22:25
Wow interesting responces, hehe yes I was aware of the US being a republic, but one of the favorite sayings of most americans "we bring democracy to the world"

Actually its not the state-owned TV media that do the majority of the fair broadcasting of the canidates, its actually the privately owned companies. The state owned media allows the amjority parties to promote themselves afe days before the election.

And as for the Nuclear issue, the effects of Nuclear power and the safety related to it is widely known by most people here, we just prefer to live without nuclear energy and we dont want nuclear ships etc into NZ. That is our right, but the biggest problem is the fact that the US seems to want other nations to tow the line or miss out.....

Praxus
08 Oct 03,, 22:44
Wow interesting responces, hehe yes I was aware of the US being a republic, but one of the favorite sayings of most americans "we bring democracy to the world"

Actually its not the state-owned TV media that do the majority of the fair broadcasting of the canidates, its actually the privately owned companies. The state owned media allows the amjority parties to promote themselves afe days before the election.

And as for the Nuclear issue, the effects of Nuclear power and the safety related to it is widely known by most people here, we just prefer to live without nuclear energy and we dont want nuclear ships etc into NZ. That is our right, but the biggest problem is the fact that the US seems to want other nations to tow the line or miss out.....

People have somehow morfed Democracy into meaning what the American system is. They aren't sugesting majority rule by it they just don't know what a true democracy was.

Your government FORCES the private companies to show all of the canadites. If the channel is state owned or not is a moot point.

Sure you can ban nuclear powered ships but don't expect us to be signing free trade agreenments. Your people obviously have little idea about nuclear powered vesels and nuclear weapons.

Leader
08 Oct 03,, 23:51
Originally posted by griff3n0
Now an interesting point that has just happened here was the US Ambassador trying to give a speech at Victoria Univesity here stating NZ wont get any free trade deals or any other big deals until we remove our Anti-Nuke policies, which ban all Nuclear powered or armed vessals and aircraft from NZ and her waters.

I can tell you now that NZ wont be dropping that policy, it was put into place by the Prime minister and is backed by nearly 80% of the population.

Is this the US telling us how to run our own nation?

No it's the US telling you that if you don't let any of our navy ships dock in your ports, we're not giving you a free trade deal. I think that's petty clear.


That is our right, but the biggest problem is the fact that the US seems to want other nations to tow the line or miss out.....

It is you right, and it's our right not to give you a trade deal. Is that really unfair, we're not forcing you into anything. People have got to start to realize that their actions have consequences, and stop getting all pissed of because you can't have everything you want.

Jay
09 Oct 03,, 01:17
errr..so whats the crux of this post??

The recall ??
Is USA a democracy or not??
NZ not allowing SSN's and SSBN's.
Or the trade deal to NZ??

If its recall, u cant do jack, because it was the will of the "cali"fornian people.
Y?es it does set a bad orecedence, if you have couple million dollars you can force a guy out like Issa did.:ermm

But OTOH, Gray Davis is disliked by majority of people, as in a true democracy, they voiced their concern and changed the head.

NZ not allwing nuke powered carriers bcoz they dont want get dirty. May be the answer lies with Indonesia or other South East Asian countries...when they invade NZ (assume) then the people wud get to know whats better and whats not better.

AFA trade deals, well again NZ is in USA's mercy. so :P

Bill
09 Oct 03,, 01:21
Why would we give you a fair trade deal when you won't let our ships into your waters?

Leader
09 Oct 03,, 01:24
Originally posted by Jay
Y?es it does set a bad orecedence, if you have couple million dollars you can force a guy out like Issa did.:ermm


Issa can start all the recalls he wants, but if the people don't vote for the recall then he is just wasting his money.

Jay
09 Oct 03,, 01:36
Yup, i guess thats what i said.

But blaming Gray Davis for economy, crumbling infrastructure, floundering education is kinda pre-mature.

These things didnt happen yesterday or last month, the same californian people elected Gray davis 6-7 months back. I guess its just waste of time and money.

So we shud THINK before we elect. There are lot of negative things in this recall, as well as positive things.

But, it wud be hard for the politicians to take serious decisions that affects the people in short term (that may incite people wrath), but it may be good for the long term. So isnt that bad for the country and state? What do u guys think about that??

Err..i'm hijacking this thread :angel

ZFBoxcar
09 Oct 03,, 01:36
errr..so whats the crux of this post??
The recall ??
Is USA a democracy or not??
NZ not allowing SSN's and SSBN's.
Or the trade deal to NZ??

No, no, no...I get it, the US isn't democratic because they wont give NZ a FTA in exchange for nothing!

:LOL :LOL

Leader
09 Oct 03,, 01:48
Originally posted by Jay
Yup, i guess thats what i said.

But blaming Gray Davis for economy, crumbling infrastructure, floundering education is kinda pre-mature.

These things didnt happen yesterday or last month, the same californian people elected Gray davis 6-7 months back. I guess its just waste of time and money.

So we shud THINK before we elect. There are lot of negative things in this recall, as well as positive things.

But, it wud be hard for the politicians to take serious decisions that affects the people in short term (that may incite people wrath), but it may be good for the long term. So isnt that bad for the country and state? What do u guys think about that??

Err..i'm hijacking this thread :angel

I actually agree. I'm not a big fan of this recall thing. If we're not careful, we could turn into Italy, and be electing a new government every six months. I would have voted for the recall though because how many times are you going to get the chance to get rid of Davis.

Jay
09 Oct 03,, 02:39
Originally posted by ZFBoxcar
No, no, no...I get it, the US isn't democratic because they wont give NZ a FTA in exchange for nothing!

:LOL :LOL

u got it mate :dbanana

Gio
09 Oct 03,, 02:58
Originally posted by ZFBoxcar
No, no, no...I get it, the US isn't democratic because they wont give NZ a FTA in exchange for nothing!

:LOL :LOL

Phew, thought I'd taken a nap during an important lesson in Political Science class.
:dbanana

Julie
09 Oct 03,, 03:46
The recall allows the people of the State to oust one who has driven their State into Bankruptcy which is nonsense when the State had the 5th largest economy. 2 + 2 just wasn't adding up to 4 in my opinion. This is a definite democratic society move and the people of that State made an example of a bad politician. Other politicians should take notice to this recall. Davis simply wasn't doing his job and he was fired by his employer, being, the citizens of California.

The US is a Democracy made up of States which have representatives that make up the Republic. The two go hand in hand and work for one another, making it a democracy. The Republic can not survive without the support of the States and the States can not stand united without the Republic. The US is, in fact, a roundtable of Democracy, and is a strong nation because the American people daily remind the politicians that they are the backbone of this country and they do this through the media. The media is an important communication tool between the American people and politicians.

As far as Trade Agreements go, it is exactly what it says. Something is given in return for something else. These agreements go back 200 years to the pioneer days of old, et al. furs for guns. The stakes are just a little higher now....nuts for nukes.

:8

griff3n0
09 Oct 03,, 04:31
ummm what happened here? FTA? maybe the name here should be changed from WAB to USAB lol,

Actually personally I dont see much point for or against the Free Trade deals at present. My point in reference to that was just that the US seems to want nations to drop there beliefs and opinions etc to suit the US and in return they offer deals.

As for California I couldnt care less who won, and no the government doesnt force the privately owned companies to give free air time, It was the decision of TV3 to give the airtime.

Jay
09 Oct 03,, 04:38
If its a decision by TV3 ( i presume its a private company) what has rich/poor or democracy had to do with it ??

Its their own decision and say, US networks are not financially fortunate to throw prime time to those ugly butted politicians.

If you cannot win a war, dont wage or whine about it!!

Nothing in this capatilist world is FREE. You gotta pay overtly or covertly for the service you receive let it be airtime in WHHW or trade deals.

This place is indeed WAB, coz we represent a host of other nations that has nukes or SSN's or SSBN's or all of em.

griff3n0
09 Oct 03,, 04:49
Actually I wasnt trying to win a war, Just from here(CNN International feed) it looked like that only 3 canidates were running for the position. It wasnt until I did abit of research on the net that I realised that there was actually about 155 canidates, which to me seems strange that only 3 canidates out of 155 got that amount of airtime.

Oh and your capitalist world? hehe u know what you can do with that lol, and that goes for the socialist world too :sniper

I'll sit on the fence and laugh at both worlds hehe

hehe ok question answered, bye for now

Jay
09 Oct 03,, 04:54
yeah ??
we dont need ICBM's to hit a cat!
Snipe can do it real nice and cheap!
He luv cats though :LOL

Jay
09 Oct 03,, 05:39
Actually I wasnt trying to win a war, Just from here(CNN International feed) it looked like that only 3 canidates were running for the position. It wasnt until I did abit of research on the net that I realised that there was actually about 155 canidates, which to me seems strange that only 3 canidates out of 155 got that amount of airtime.

Yes of course we allow every tom dick and harry to compete, but alas we dont listen to them, if they'r worthless! I pity the NZ people who had to take those crap :roll non stop every elections!!

Ziska
09 Oct 03,, 05:56
New Zealand also has like, four million people. California has what, 30 mil? It's a lot easier to get fair representation for all partiers in a country of 4 mill than a state of 30.

2DREZQ
09 Oct 03,, 05:59
Originally posted by griff3n0

Oh and your capitalist world? hehe u know what you can do with that lol, and that goes for the socialist world too :sniper

I'll sit on the fence and laugh at both worlds hehe


Well, exactly what world do you live in then? Are you a functionary of the state, or do you have a job? Are you in school, who is paying for your education? What are you anyway?

griff3n0
09 Oct 03,, 08:58
hahahaha yea right moron................

You really think I'm going to provide you with that info.

Bye bye:LOL

Praxus
09 Oct 03,, 21:19
None if it tells us who you are. We aren't gonna take a 1000 dollar plane trip and hunt you down, lol.

Donnie
10 Oct 03,, 01:46
the only state that has the recall is california, the only way other states can do it is through impeachment, (not easy) and most of those states actualy require some kind of law being broke. so the US turning into italy is kinda mute.

now in regards to free trade,

i went down to the store the other day, i had some stuff i wanted to trade with them, you know, some stuff i made, the stores name was WALMART, i dont know, maybe you heard of them? anyway, i told them that they could have the honor of trading stuff with me, but only if they stopped bringing thier goods from thier distribution center by truck, instead they would have to bring it in by train, then, and only then, would i let them trade with me. well, all i can say is you wouldnt believe the nerve of those people. needless to say, i still have all my stuff.:dontcare

2DREZQ
10 Oct 03,, 04:27
Originally posted by donnie
the only state that has the recall is california, the only way other states can do it is through impeachment, (not easy) and most of those states actualy require some kind of law being broke. so the US turning into italy is kinda mute.



Uh, Actually one other state has the recall. TA DAAH! It's North Dakota! Yes! And we actually used it once, but that was before WWII, IIRC.

2DREZQ
10 Oct 03,, 04:33
Originally posted by griff3n0
hahahaha yea right moron................

You really think I'm going to provide you with that info.

Bye bye:LOL

Hmmm, You wouldn't be related to a fellow who calls himself Black Eagle Force, would you?

Let's try this again. From the gist of your post we may assume that you subscribe to neither the Capitalist nor the Socialist model of economics. Would you care to tell us what your economic philosophy is? (Anarchist doesn't really count.)

Stinger
10 Oct 03,, 13:40
Remember Drez.... chew slowly, or he'll be gone before you know it then you'll have to look for someone else.

Donnie
10 Oct 03,, 14:55
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 2DREZQ
Uh, Actually one other state has the recall. TA DAAH! It's North Dakota! Yes! And we actually used it once, but that was before WWII, IIRC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

your right i missed that one, actually there are a few more than i thought.

Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington, and Wisconsin.

of the 18, 8 require a law being broken, and most cant be kicked out in thier first year, and most require 25% of the voteing signatures, california is just the easiest to get it done, and of course north dakota :) still, twice in 80 years isnt to bad. but i think wisconsin is chomping at the bit to be next, but they have to wait till next year and get 25% of the voters signatures.

Confed999
10 Oct 03,, 20:54
Originally posted by 2DREZQ
Would you care to tell us what your economic philosophy is? (Anarchist doesn't really count.)
According to his introduction post he's Green party. If the Kiwi flavored Greens are anything like the ones here, the economic policy is that a family of 4 will make $30,000 a year regardless of what's done, if I remember correctly. Their defence policy is a please don't kill us policy, and they think there is nothing lovlier than a tree. Basicly it's Greenpeace in a political party, or pinko tree-humpers with a hate-on for anything Republican. Like I said though, it may be different in NZ.

kingfrogger
10 Oct 03,, 21:54
griff3n0 -

To address your question about only 3 candidates out of 155 getting "adequate exposure" through the media, consider the following:


- Elections ARE, and probably always will be, a popularity contest.

- In any election (student council in high school, mayoral, congressional, presidential, and yes, even for governer) the majority of the voters don't have the foggiest notion of what the candidate they're voting for really stands for. They simply vote for whose name they've heard most often (based on advertising brought about by money, campaign contributions, etc.) or whose image appeals to them most.

- Candidates like Schwarzenegger DO, in fact, have both name recognition and money to help their campaigns. They use this as anybody would use ANY tool to help their cause.

- The majority of those 155 "candidates" were no-name goofballs that just jumped into the race for the governor's seat as either a joke, or a publicity stunt or something similar. One was Gary Coleman (a washed-up, broke, desperate former child star), one was a porn star (yeah, she's gonna balance the budget alright), one was a convenience store owner, et cetera, et cetera.

If you mean to tell me that if YOU were in charge, YOU'D waste MY tax money by paying the television and radio stations to give each of these wackos equal time spouting off garbage about subjects they know nothing about (most coming from absolutely NO political background), not only would you probably get impeached, you'd be lucky if a group or individual didn't campaign to have you drawn and quartered... broadcast live on those "state-owned" television stations.

(IMHO, of course...)

Praxus
10 Oct 03,, 23:19
In an Anarchy everyone would flee to the relitive safety of a dictatorship.

Confed999
12 Oct 03,, 15:03
Originally posted by Praxus
In an Anarchy everyone would flee to the relitive safety of a dictatorship.
Hehe, in an Anarchy everyone is a Dictator. :)