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troung
29 Mar 17,, 15:58
Three burglars entered an Oklahoma home. The owner’s son opened fire with an AR-15, deputies say.

By Ben Guarino
March 28 

Homeowner's son shoots, kills three intruders


Gunfire rang out Monday afternoon in a home in Broken Arrow, an Oklahoma city 15 miles southeast of Tulsa. Three intruders were killed after the son of the homeowner fired a semiautomatic rifle in what local law enforcement officers later described as an act of self-defense, though their investigation remains open.

The intruders — a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old and a man thought to be 18 or 19 — had smashed open the back door of the house, the Wagoner County Sheriff’s Office said in a statement posted to Facebook. Their plan was burglary, authorities said.

They wore gloves, masks and all-black clothes, Wagoner County Deputy Nick Mahoney told Tulsa World. Two of the teenagers were armed, one with a knife and the other with brass knuckles.

The trio reportedly exchanged words with the 23-year-old son of the homeowner, whose name has also not been released. He fired on them with an AR-15, a popular semiautomatic rifle, officials told Fox 23.

The shots seemed to shatter the day like a thunderstorm, one neighbor told CBS affiliate KOTV-TV.

“Upon making entry to the home one of the residents fired a rifle striking all three of the suspects,” the sheriff’s office statement said.

Two of the intruders died inside the kitchen. The other “was able to run to the driveway before succumbing to his injuries,” the statement said.

The homeowner and his son gave formal statements at the sheriff’s office.

Authorities later said the suspected getaway driver, Elizabeth Rodriguez, turned herself in at the Broken Arrow Police Department, the Tulsa World reported. The 21-year-old was arrested on complaints of first degree murder, three counts, as well as three counts of burglary. “A person who is committing a felony when a death occurs can be charged with felony murder,” Tulsa World explained.

Several nearby homes had been burglarized in recent weeks, neighbor Leon Simmons told KOTV-TV. Authorities said they could not speculate as to whether this incident was related to the others.

The sheriff’s deputy described the shooting as an abnormal occurrence in the typically quiet Wagoner County. “This is very, very unusual for us. It’s not something we’re used to,” he told Tulsa World. “It’s not something we normally have.”

Correction: A previous version of this article incorrectly stated that the 21-year-old had been charged with three counts of murder and burglary. She was arrested on complaints of those counts but has not yet been charged.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/28/three-burglars-entered-an-oklahoma-home-the-owners-son-opened-fire-with-an-ar-15-deputies-say/?tid=pm_national_pop&utm_term=.00adf3421b5e#comments

surfgun
29 Mar 17,, 18:10
That's what they get! That's the way it should always shake out.

kato
29 Mar 17,, 19:00
“A person who is committing a felony when a death occurs can be charged with felony murder,” Tulsa World explained.
... felony murder?

Oh wait, common law. And one particular rule abandoned everywhere on this planet where common law still applies save for a couple dozen US states. Quaint.

Toby
29 Mar 17,, 23:02
Perfectly understandable. We had various guns in the house in Tx. I wouldn't have blinked for one second!

Monash
30 Mar 17,, 11:37
Leaving aside the time line and dynamics of the actual confrontation I'm not sure an AR-15 would be my first choice of firearms when confronting intruders in my own home in a typical suburban neighborhood. The confrontation is at close range and all those .223 rounds have to go somewhere after being fired, even the ones that hit the target. I would hate to be the neighbor across the road sitting in front of the TV sipping a cold beer when 5 or 6 rounds of high velocity FMJ go traipsing through my front window on their way to parts distant. Out in the sticks not so much a problem (much less chance of collateral damage) but in the burbs?

Maybe a good pistol or shotgun would be in order.

Doktor
30 Mar 17,, 12:36
Leaving aside the time line and dynamics of the actual confrontation I'm not sure an AR-15 would be my first choice of firearms when confronting intruders in my own home in a typical suburban neighborhood. The confrontation is at close range and all those .223 rounds have to go somewhere after being fired, even the ones that hit the target. I would hate to be the neighbor across the road sitting in front of the TV sipping a cold beer when 5 or 6 rounds high velocity FMJ go traipsing through my front window on their way to parts distant. Out in the sticks not so much a problem (much less chance of collateral damage) but in the burbs?

Maybe a good pistol or shotgun would be in order.

But you ain't a 23 y/o redneck.

GVChamp
30 Mar 17,, 17:09
AR-15 is the Republican Prius

SteveDaPirate
31 Mar 17,, 21:42
Leaving aside the time line and dynamics of the actual confrontation I'm not sure an AR-15 would be my first choice of firearms when confronting intruders in my own home in a typical suburban neighborhood. The confrontation is at close range and all those .223 rounds have to go somewhere after being fired, even the ones that hit the target. I would hate to be the neighbor across the road sitting in front of the TV sipping a cold beer when 5 or 6 rounds of high velocity FMJ go traipsing through my front window on their way to parts distant. Out in the sticks not so much a problem (much less chance of collateral damage) but in the burbs?

Maybe a good pistol or shotgun would be in order.

Surprisingly enough, .223 is actually one of the best candidates for home defense use while avoiding over penetration. Some empirical testing (http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html) actually shows that pistol rounds and buckshot will easily penetrate multiple sets of drywall, while .223 largely doesn't. It seems that the .223's combination of high speed and low weight likes to fragment and tumble after the first wall, while heavy slower rounds stay together as a cohesive penetrator.

43606

Toby
31 Mar 17,, 23:50
Leaving aside the time line and dynamics of the actual confrontation I'm not sure an AR-15 would be my first choice of firearms when confronting intruders in my own home in a typical suburban neighborhood. The confrontation is at close range and all those .223 rounds have to go somewhere after being fired, even the ones that hit the target. I would hate to be the neighbor across the road sitting in front of the TV sipping a cold beer when 5 or 6 rounds of high velocity FMJ go traipsing through my front window on their way to parts distant. Out in the sticks not so much a problem (much less chance of collateral damage) but in the burbs?

Maybe a good pistol or shotgun would be in order.
I've seen gun crime in TX and ARK first hand..its not UK scenario stuff! The burglar is armed and you're going to be full of lead if you don't put him down first....So quit tryin to sound cool and protect your family! (Muppet)

Monash
01 Apr 17,, 10:37
I've seen gun crime in TX and ARK first hand..its not UK scenario stuff! The burglar is armed and you're going to be full of lead if you don't put him down first....So quit trying to sound cool and protect your family! (Muppet)

1) I'm not in the UK.
2) I was not 'trying to sound cool' but rather commenting on the choice of weapon concerned .
3) As part of the my training in as a LEA I've qualified with several types of hand gun and long arm.
4) During my career I've also executed both armed maritime boarding ops and 'hard entry' search warrants so I believe I can claim a (limited) degree of knowledge on the topic under discussion. Certainly not as much as some of the other more senior forum members here but some.
5) Want to repeat the 'muppet' comment?

In view of the above and not withstanding Steve's very useful info on the ballistic characteristics of various .223 caliber rounds I stand by my comments relating to the tactical utility of assault rifles in the particular scenario being discussed. My key concern being the extended range of the weapon concerned. Yes, depending on the type of round and the physical properties of the object being struck .223 rounds can and will deform rapidly but the point is they are still potentially lethal out to several hundred meters - as they are designed to be. In the scenario being discussed including the potentially confined engagement space a pistol would have been, IMO the better option.

Toby
01 Apr 17,, 11:11
1) I'm not in the UK.
2) I was not 'trying to sound cool' but rather commenting on the choice of weapon concerned .
3) As part of the my training in as a LEA I've qualified with several types of hand gun and long arm.
4) During my career I've also executed both armed maritime boarding ops and 'hard entry' search warrants so I believe I can claim a (limited) degree of knowledge on the topic under discussion. Certainly not as much as some of the other more senior forum members here but some.
5) Want to repeat the 'muppet' comment?

In view of the above and not withstanding Steve's very useful info on the ballistic characteristics of various .223 caliber rounds I stand by my comments relating to the tactical utility of assault rifles in the particular scenario being discussed. My key concern being the extended range of the weapon concerned. Yes, depending on the type of round and the physical properties of the object being struck .223 rounds can and will deform rapidly but the point is they are still potentially lethal out to several hundred meters - as they are designed to be. In the scenario being discussed including the potentially confined engagement space a pistol would have been, IMO the better option.LOL, Just shoot the Burglar.. ;)

Monash
01 Apr 17,, 11:34
Apology accepted.

Toby
01 Apr 17,, 11:49
'Muppet' is an endearing insult ......I'm frequently a muppet when I'm on the vino...Usually on Friday nights

My point was that untrained people react, they grab what's nearest and think about it afterwards

Monash
01 Apr 17,, 12:00
No worries, and yes they do.

tankie
01 Apr 17,, 12:59
My personal weapon for home defence would be without doubt a semi auto 5 shot browning 12 guage chambered for 3 inch magnum , seems to cover all the angles for mweahhh . But anything that is close to hand as a weapon is much better than SFA , but to comment ref 3 dead ,, GOOD

Monash
01 Apr 17,, 13:28
My personal weapon for home defence would be without doubt a semi auto 5 shot browning 12 guage chambered for 3 inch magnum , seems to cover all the angles for mweahhh . But anything that is close to hand as a weapon is much better than SFA , but to comment ref 3 dead ,, GOOD

Tankie, don't forget that if you are at home you want something that is not going to get in your way as you move to engage. A compact, short weapon is generally better in confined spaces. Beyond that I don't tend to regard 3 people dead as a 'good' outcome. Yes, in this instance it was infinitely preferable to the alternate option i.e. the occupant or a member of his family being harmed but having them in detained in custody and answering for their crimes would be my preference.

tankie
01 Apr 17,, 13:50
Tankie, don't forget that if you are at home you want something that is not going to get in your way as you move to engage. A compact, short weapon is generally better in confined spaces. Beyond that I don't tend to regard 3 people dead as a 'good' outcome. Yes, in this instance it was infinitely preferable to the alternate option i.e. the occupant or a member of his family being harmed but having them in detained in custody and answering for their crimes would be my preference.

I do , i get the point of close quarter weapons mate but i would still rely on the 12 gauge ,barrels can be shortened , obviously the kid has been forewarned by noise etc etc that some bastard was where they shouldnt have been and got whatever weapon was at hand , hit 1st ask Qs later , they are dead , he and his family are alive , the perps got what they deserved , if they werent there with intent , they would still be alive .No bleeding hearts from me monash , none whatsoever .And im sure the last thing on the shooters mind was to say hands up ya under arrest , Of course its just my opinion ,, and im sure millions of others . Cheers .

Toby
01 Apr 17,, 14:30
My weapon of choice would be the lightsaber that dad got me when I was 8.....Seriously good for cutting people in half

Spec

Type: Energy sword

Function: Fencing, Stabbing, Cutting, Slashing, Welding, Melting, Heating, Deflecting, Shielding, Fighting, Burning, Lighting, Throwing

Affiliation: Jedi, Sith, Knights of Ren

43614

anil
01 Apr 17,, 14:39
The kid probably hunts with his rifle, possibly big game because 3 humans is too many. Maybe it was dark.

tankie
01 Apr 17,, 15:05
The kid probably hunts with his rifle, possibly big game because 3 humans is too many. Maybe it was dark.

Ahhhhh but , just think economics , with a short barrel 12 he cud have got all 3 with one shot .

Doktor
01 Apr 17,, 15:13
Ahhhhh but , just think economics , with a short barrel 12 he cud have got all 3 with one shot .

With your sight it would've been 9 down. No wonders you prefer a broad sweep, just can't miss : D

tankie
01 Apr 17,, 15:42
With your sight it would've been 9 down. No wonders you prefer a broad sweep, just can't miss : D

Ahhhh yes 105 mm cannister .thooper dooper

troung
01 Apr 17,, 18:19
AR15 was the proper tool here.

http://ktul.com/news/local/family-member-of-teen-burglary-suspect-killed-in-wagoner-county-break-in-speaks-out?sdfc

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Family member of teen burglary suspect killed in Wagoner County break-in speaks out
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by Ethan Hutchins
Thursday, March 30th 2017

Photo of Jacob Redfearn, courtesy of Leroy Schumacher.

Jacob Redfearn 3.JPGJacob Redfearn.JPG
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COOKSON, Okla., (KTUL) -- A family member of one of the three teen suspects killed after breaking into a Wagoner County home Monday is speaking out for the first time.


The grandfather of Jacob Redfearn believes shooting and killing the 17-year-old and his friends was not needed.

RELATED | WCSO: Getaway driver in deadly home invasion had no connection with homeowners



“What these three boys did was stupid," said Leroy Schumacher.

Schumacher agrees his grandson and his friends made a bad decision, but not one worthy of deadly consequences.

“They knew they could be punished for it but they did not deserve to die," said Schumacher.

Redfearn, 19-year old Maxwell Cook and 16-year old Jake Woodruff were shot by the homeowner’s son while breaking into the Wagoner County house Monday.

Schumacher says his grandson didn't have a chance. The 17-year old, he says, never got into trouble.

“Brass knuckles against an AR-15, come on, who was afraid for their life," said Schumacher.



Since the shooting, Wagoner County deputies have arrested 21-year-old Elizabeth Rodriguez, the alleged getaway driver.

Schumacher believes she was the ring leader, and investigators say she admitted to planning the whole thing.

The homeowner's son has not been charged with a crime. Deputies believe he fired in self-defense.

“There’s got to be a limit to that law, I mean he shot all three of them; there was no need for that," said Schumacher.

LISTEN: 911 call released from deadly Wagoner County burglary

Schumacher does say he supports the right to bear arms and protect your home. But he doesn’t agree with shooting and killing intruders.



“These boys' families are going to suffer with this the rest of their lives, we have to live with this the rest of our lives," said Schumacher.

It’s a situation he knows was caused by the three teens' poor decisions.

He only hopes their deaths can be an example for others.

“You can’t change history, but you can damn sure learn from it, and maybe some kids will learn from this," said Schumacher.

At one point Cook and Woodruff were enrolled with Owasso Public Schools, according to the district, and Redfearn was at one point enrolled in Collinsville Public Schools.

-----

EDITOR'S NOTE: A previous version of this story reported a vigil was planned for Friday night at Owasso's YMCA, according to Owasso Public Schools' superintendent, but the YMCA says no vigil is planned at their organization

bonehead
01 Apr 17,, 22:26
The bottom line is that the best defense weapon is the one you can get to when the bad guys come. Not everyone can afford multiple weapons for specializing, gen shooting, personal defense, hunting etc. One thing I have noticed through the years is that to be cautious of the man who has but one firearm. Chances are he really knows how to use it for best effect in most circumstaces.

This situation is a win-win in many ways. First it proves that a good guy with a gun can engage bad guys and win. Secondly, the bad guys were taken out and no bystanders were hit. Third, This quiets all those that question the use of an AR-15 for defense as obviously this platform does a good job of it. Third, we dont have to bear the expence of a trial, incarceration and further crimes by these individuals. The result is that because of a good guy with a gun a crime was stopped and further crimes have been stopped. The community is indebted to this man because he had the means and the courage to defend his home.....this is a fine example of what more Americans should be doing.

anil
02 Apr 17,, 10:27
I cannot speak about burglers however, I have a yard with free range and pet birds(budgies and ringnecks) flying around the house. Have a problem with cat attacks taking away budgies from the house. I used to use sling with marbles but it was ineffective. Things get over in 15-20 secs. Now I use a .22 air rifle on standby. Problems during quick reflex situation is loading and weight(4.2kg). Back hurts looking through the scope but fixed using laser sight now using rested at gut level.

For burglary situation, I think anything higher than 22 handgun would do. 12 guage is hardcore but funny if tankie actually has a working setup.

citanon
03 Apr 17,, 02:25
I think Monash and Steve both brought up interesting points (and wow never knew that about Monash).

I think Monash is right about the potential danger but I've also seen some of the tests that Steve referred.

However, for home defense you also have to consider an untrained mentally unprepared person's ability to hit and stop an intruder while under enormous stress.

From that angle the AR wins hands down.

Btw, a question I've always wondered about:

Is the AR drop safe when it's chambered with the safety on?

Are there any drop safe shotguns out there?

Monash
03 Apr 17,, 14:19
All that was in my younger days, now I 'Police' a desk and chase money launderers and other transnational corporate crimes. Do I envy the younger officers? sometimes yes. But then I think 'been there done that' plus I get to go home to a cold beer and a warm bed more regularly than they do. So there is an up side.

tankie
03 Apr 17,, 15:54
I cannot speak about burglers however, I have a yard with free range and pet birds(budgies and ringnecks) flying around the house. Have a problem with cat attacks taking away budgies from the house. I used to use sling with marbles but it was ineffective. Things get over in 15-20 secs. Now I use a .22 air rifle on standby. Problems during quick reflex situation is loading and weight(4.2kg). Back hurts looking through the scope but fixed using laser sight now using rested at gut level.

For burglary situation, I think anything higher than 22 handgun would do. 12 guage is hardcore but funny if tankie actually has a working setup.

Haa no mate not anymore , did have , i had a stevens savage pump action ( utter crap) and a browning semi auto , UK is very strict gun control , only crims have them now , shotguns are the only ones we are allowed now except if deer stalker with rifles only , 22 for vermin control , no handguns , but nothing like was used in this situation .

Amled
03 Apr 17,, 17:14
In a similar discussion some years ago (Shamus, R.I.P. mate!), mentioned that he was of the Big and Heavy school of thought in these situations. Heavy to bring them down, Big to scare them shitless.!
Also on outside defense, he did mention Claymores at one time.
Never really knew if he was kidding, or not.

dalem
07 Apr 17,, 01:41
I would throw my poo, as my pants would no doubt be full of it at that time.

-dale

gunnut
08 Apr 17,, 02:05
The AR involved was a Colt Sporter from early 1990s with 20" barrel. The house was in a suburb of Tulsa with large lots. The houses there were all stand-alone units and a good distance (maybe 30 meters) from the neighbor. I think the houses were all of pretty decent size, maybe 3000 sq ft.

I wouldn't use an AR in tight spaces, especially not one with 20" barrel. However, I'd have to say, I would be far more confident confronting multiple assailants using an AR than a pistol.

SteveDaPirate
08 Apr 17,, 05:05
The AR involved was a Colt Sporter from early 1990s with 20" barrel. The house was in a suburb of Tulsa with large lots. The houses there were all stand-alone units and a good distance (maybe 30 meters) from the neighbor. I think the houses were all of pretty decent size, maybe 3000 sq ft.

I wouldn't use an AR in tight spaces, especially not one with 20" barrel. However, I'd have to say, I would be far more confident confronting multiple assailants using an AR than a pistol.

I'm biding my time until I see a .223 bullpup I like. I want a 16" barrel in a 26" package with a good trigger (sorry Tavor) for fun at the range in addition to home defense duties.

It seems like it would have darn near everything I want in a home defense firearm.


Easier to be accurate than with a pistol (especially when sleepy/disoriented)
Easy to maneuver indoors with short overall length
Sufficient velocity for remote wounding effects or "hydrostatic shock" (AR pistols give up about 700 fps and almost half the muzzle energy)
Ammunition minimises drywall over-penetration
30 round magazine


A lot more firepower than the 9mm CZ-75 on my nightstand, and a lot more maneuverable than the 12 gauge pump or the hilariously long 65" Mosin w/bayonet in the closet : )

gunnut
08 Apr 17,, 05:23
I'm biding my time until I see a .223 bullpup I like. I want a 16" barrel in a 26" package with a good trigger (sorry Tavor) for fun at the range in addition to home defense duties.

It seems like it would have darn near everything I want in a home defense firearm.


Easier to be accurate than with a pistol (especially when sleepy/disoriented)
Easy to maneuver indoors with short overall length
Sufficient velocity for hydrostatic shock (AR pistols give up about 700 fps)
Ammunition minimises drywall over-penetration
30 round magazine


A lot more firepower than the 9mm CZ-75 on my nightstand, and a lot more maneuverable than the 12 gauge pump or the hilariously long 65" Mosin w/bayonet in the closet : )

The Mosin with bayonet is a great zombie apocalypse weapon. It has the reach, both with ammo and without ammo. The round has sufficient power to go through several Zs in a row. The bayonet is a stabbing weapon and unlikely to get caught in the skull like a machete.

citanon
08 Apr 17,, 05:43
I'm biding my time until I see a .223 bullpup I like. I want a 16" barrel in a 26" package with a good trigger (sorry Tavor) for fun at the range in addition to home defense duties.

It seems like it would have darn near everything I want in a home defense firearm.


Easier to be accurate than with a pistol (especially when sleepy/disoriented)
Easy to maneuver indoors with short overall length
Sufficient velocity for remote wounding effects or "hydrostatic shock" (AR pistols give up about 700 fps and almost half the muzzle energy)
Ammunition minimises drywall over-penetration
30 round magazine


A lot more firepower than the 9mm CZ-75 on my nightstand, and a lot more maneuverable than the 12 gauge pump or the hilariously long 65" Mosin w/bayonet in the closet : )

Get a Tavor and a trigger kit. Problem solved. Or are there no decent trigger kits for the Tavor?

SteveDaPirate
08 Apr 17,, 05:59
Get a Tavor and a trigger kit. Problem solved. Or are there no decent trigger kits for the Tavor?

I have a couple issues that have discouraged me from acquiring a Tavor SAR:


There are trigger kits available from Giselle and Timney if you are prepared to throw another $350 at a gun that already costs $2k
Accuracy with the stock trigger is apparently around 8 moa for most people
Suppressors cause excessive gas blowback that hits you in the face

I'm waiting to see how the DesertTech MDR fares in reviews assuming they ever actually release the thing! I'm assuming they have attempted to improve on some of these aspects to compete with the Tavor, and I'm also digging the fact that it can be easily converted to fire 7.62x51.

https://deserttech.com/product_overview.php?product_id=4&load=product_overview

Monash
08 Apr 17,, 14:43
The AR involved was a Colt Sporter from early 1990s with 20" barrel. The house was in a suburb of Tulsa with large lots. The houses there were all stand-alone units and a good distance (maybe 30 meters) from the neighbor. I think the houses were all of pretty decent size, maybe 3000 sq ft.

I wouldn't use an AR in tight spaces, especially not one with 20" barrel. However, I'd have to say, I would be far more confident confronting multiple assailants using an AR than a pistol.

A 20" barrel is is certainly going to up the mv and hence the effective range of the rifle, so even allowing for the type of neighborhood you describe I still think there's an unnecessary risk posed to the neighbors. As for the rest, assuming the occupant concerned was well practiced in tactical pistol shooting I don't think 3 assailants are necessarily an issue, depending of course on issues like initial engagement range and the tactical geography.

On professional basis (i.e. LEOs and military), if I had my 'druthers' I think an SMG would be the way to go in this scenario (confined spaces, close range and a built up area etc) as opposed to an assault rifle. Of course I have no idea whether full auto SMGs are a legal civilian option in Oklahoma or for that matter any other US States.

Have to say though I'm glad they are not an option here. Last thing I need is more stress on the job.

citanon
08 Apr 17,, 21:35
Civilians here in the US can get semi auto versions of smgs, but there is still a restriction on minimum length of the barrel to 14 inches.

A popular thing people have wanted the last few years has been getting an AR like platform in 300 black out. You can then get the subsonic version of that round, which hits about as hard as a .45 acp, and match that to a suppressor, which makes the whole thing very quiet for in door use.

Of course by that point you've spent maybe $3.5k on tacticool and your wife will probably be ready to kill you herself.

A more accessible option is something like a keltec sub 2000 in 9mm or .40 SW, which is like $500.