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View Full Version : SU 30MKI Vs Rafale



uss
02 Jul 05,, 07:49
Its been a while but it is good to be back. My good wishes to all posters. Aah i love starting a X vs Y thread, there is soo much passion in such discussion, hopefully this one will be intelligent without any flaming: )

here is the question:

A2A and A2G, which plane wins? Now and in the near future?

IMHO the winner is the Su 30MKI. Why?

1) longer range + endurance
2) greater weapons payload
3) Bigger, more powerful radar based on the given links (it is v.difficult to find a good link on RBE 2's range by the way). Su 30 is rated at 150-160 kms while Rafale is rated at 100km.
4) better or equally good ECM equipmt and self defence (Spectra Vs tranquil - using el 8222) and a rearward facing NO12 radar which can fire the R 73)
5) better range of optic surveillance suite- IRST, laser designation, fLIR etc (90km Vs 80km)
6) TVC
7) cheaper by far!
8) v.good avionics further enhanced by 2 pilots
9) longer a2a ranged missiles (R77, R27 etc newer versions esp.)

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_295.shtml
vs
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_407.shtml

Future possible developments for the SU 30MKI:

1) AESA radar
2) Brahmos A2G missiles
3) greater rCS reduction materials
4) I have even read somewhere of it getting Meteor
5) Astra
6) Israeli missiles (popeye, crystal maze, delilah, python 5 etc) are always a distinct possibilty
7) KS 172 (aah this one is too good)

Possible advantges for Rafale at present or future: 1) better rcs figures (supposed to be stealthy, but then with external weapons how does it matter so much?), 2) Scalp EG, 3) erm, ehm, ehm ....alright can't find any!

Yup, the Rafale's a good plane, but IMHO it is waaay too pricey and can't hold up to the SU 30MKI in present form and in near future avatars

go ahead have fun dissecting this one :)

Regards,
USS.

avon1944
02 Aug 05,, 23:24
> USS
> A2A and A2G, which plane wins? Now and in the near future?
I would place my money on the Rafale! I say this because personally I feel the Rafale is more survivable. Its lower RCS and more important its active cancellation radar jamming system will great enhance its ability to remain undetected. The Rafale's radar is also less detectible being a LPI radar.
Yes the Su-30MKI has better avionics than the other Russian aircraft but, the avionics are not "fifth generation" avionics. The Su-30 carry a heavier weapons load, greater range and, due to the depressed economy in Russia the Suhkoi is cheaper.... you get what you pay for.

The Sukhoi's low speed performance is exceptional but, the low speed dogfight is "not" productive for high one sided kill ratios! The low speed dogfight and furball goes a long way to provide parity because in the furball most kills are made by the unseen shooter!

The Rafale is a true "omni-role" war plane, first class in all roles. It is not the fighter the Typhoon or Suhkoi are but, their advantage is slight and the many other roles of which these aircraft maybe require to fill is where the Rafale to excel. In the air combat role, the Rafale is designed to kill quickly and effeciently to avoid air parity. The avionics the Rafale has provides the pilot with greater situational awareness. This superior interface will provide the pilot with information without overloading the pilot with its workload.
The Rafale like the F/A-18E/F can be sent aloft with a variety of weapons and have the aircraft do any role.

I am not saying the Su-30MKI is not a good aircraft, it is just the F-22, Rafale and, Typhoon are true fifth generation aircraft. The Su-30 is a fourth and a half or modified fourth generation aircraft. I feel the same way when comparing the F-15K to the Rafale! The F-15K is basically an F-15E Eagle on a F-15C frame, complete with the Sidewinder-9X/HMDS and Slammer Missiles.

Adrian

hello
03 Aug 05,, 14:37
Rafale and Typhoon are NOT gen5 AC. For a fighter to be gen5, it must be stealthy. That way the only gen5 AC are Raptor, JSF and PAKFA. Plus the Rafale, Typhoon and SuperHornet are all "omnirole" fighters which carry a multipurpose payload. That way the f22 is also multipurpose as who knows what all it can do.

highsea
03 Aug 05,, 15:16
Rafale and Typhoon are NOT gen5 AC. For a fighter to be gen5, it must be stealthy. That way the only gen5 AC are Raptor, JSF and PAKFA.
The Pak-fa is so stealthy, no one's ever even seen one.... :rolleyes:

jgetti
03 Aug 05,, 15:47
>
I am not saying the Su-30MKI is not a good aircraft, it is just the F-22, Rafale and, Typhoon are true fifth generation aircraft. The Su-30 is a fourth and a half or modified fourth generation aircraft. I feel the same way when comparing the F-15K to the Rafale! The F-15K is basically an F-15E Eagle on a F-15C frame, complete with the Sidewinder-9X/HMDS and Slammer Missiles.

Adrian


What are you talking about? The F-15K uses the exact same airframe the F-15E uses. The enhancements of both the E and the K have been quite extensive since the E came to be in the 80's. I wouldn't put my money against an E or any of it's variants for that matter in any engagement situation,, ATG or ATA with any other CURRENTLY produced aircraft. There's a reason they cost 70 mil a copy, and believe me, it's not because of antiquated manufacturing techniques....

Bill
03 Aug 05,, 16:34
Hmmmm. I'd thought the K was based on the C model Eagles lighter airframe. The E model is not as agile as the C.

jgetti
03 Aug 05,, 17:32
Hmmmm. I'd thought the K was based on the C model Eagles lighter airframe. The E model is not as agile as the C.

The basic takeoff weight between the two is about 4000lbs difference, so the potential ATA performance of the E variants with the same amount of fuel as a comparable C is slightly reduced. However, the later E's and their variants also use the F100-PW229 engines or in the case of the K, GE engines, each with approx. 29000lbs thrust, whereas the C's have the F100-PW220 engines with about 5000lbs thrust less per engine. The flight control computers and control laws were improved for the E's (and variants) as well. So yes, the mass of the E's and their variants is higher with the same amount of fuel as a comparable C, but when the aircraft are at equal weights, the acceleration/agility of the E's is actually better.

Bill
03 Aug 05,, 22:21
Hmmm, i've taken that position on my board before and got creamed by the pilots who all scoffed at the notion.

I do agree with you that intuitively, that would seem to be the case.

Apparently the -229 doesn't have the right characteristics for the air supremacy mission, or something. If they're using the same GE plants as used in the late block big mouth inlet Vipers, then perhaps the problem was solved.

jgetti
04 Aug 05,, 14:37
Hmmm, i've taken that position on my board before and got creamed by the pilots who all scoffed at the notion.

I do agree with you that intuitively, that would seem to be the case.

Apparently the -229 doesn't have the right characteristics for the air supremacy mission, or something. If they're using the same GE plants as used in the late block big mouth inlet Vipers, then perhaps the problem was solved.


I hadn't heart that before. On the other hand,, the dark grays almost always have a heavier loadout and are almost always carrying targeting pods, the CFT's have more and larger racks for carrying the bombs, etc, etc, etc,.. So the similar weight, similar drag condition probably rarely happens in the fleet if ever.

In addition, I know that pilots of the light grays despise the dark grays because we turned their fighter into a bomb truck,,, and no matter how good it is air to air, they've made up in their minds that they don't like it. Not one pound for air to ground,, hehe. We usually end up going a few rounds on that topic at the annual maintainers conference at Warner Robins.

On a different note, here's something interesting.... When the conformal fuel tanks are put on the birds,, C-E's,, the pitch response of the aircraft actually increases. Apparently, they cause the geometry of the fuse to generate more lift than with the wing roots exposed.

uss
07 Aug 05,, 06:42
> USS
> A2A and A2G, which plane wins? Now and in the near future?
I would place my money on the Rafale! I say this because personally I feel the Rafale is more survivable. Its lower RCS and more important its active cancellation radar jamming system will great enhance its ability to remain undetected. The Rafale's radar is also less detectible being a LPI radar.
Yes the Su-30MKI has better avionics than the other Russian aircraft but, the avionics are not "fifth generation" avionics. The Su-30 carry a heavier weapons load, greater range and, due to the depressed economy in Russia the Suhkoi is cheaper.... you get what you pay for.

The Sukhoi's low speed performance is exceptional but, the low speed dogfight is "not" productive for high one sided kill ratios! The low speed dogfight and furball goes a long way to provide parity because in the furball most kills are made by the unseen shooter!

The Rafale is a true "omni-role" war plane, first class in all roles. It is not the fighter the Typhoon or Suhkoi are but, their advantage is slight and the many other roles of which these aircraft maybe require to fill is where the Rafale to excel. In the air combat role, the Rafale is designed to kill quickly and effeciently to avoid air parity. The avionics the Rafale has provides the pilot with greater situational awareness. This superior interface will provide the pilot with information without overloading the pilot with its workload.
The Rafale like the F/A-18E/F can be sent aloft with a variety of weapons and have the aircraft do any role.

I am not saying the Su-30MKI is not a good aircraft, it is just the F-22, Rafale and, Typhoon are true fifth generation aircraft. The Su-30 is a fourth and a half or modified fourth generation aircraft. I feel the same way when comparing the F-15K to the Rafale! The F-15K is basically an F-15E Eagle on a F-15C frame, complete with the Sidewinder-9X/HMDS and Slammer Missiles.

Adrian

Adrian,

here are a few questions:
What do you know about the RCS figures of the Su 30MKI? vis a vis the Rafale?

Sure the rafale is a lo a/c, but what big advantage does this offer when all your weapons are carried externally?

Please don't include the EF 2000 and the Rafale in the same class as the Raptor Keep the Raptor out of it.

The active cancellation bit sounds impressive, has it been implemented ? Also I thought only the AESA radars were LPI radars. Are you referring to the future (AMSAR?) or the current RBE2?

Rangewise and pricewise (you could probly have 2 MKIs for one Rafale!), the MKI has too much of an advantage. It would be hell to pay if the Rafale always wound up in a 1 VS 2 situation against the MKI. At any rate, the MKI, even single handeldy seems to have some definite advantages over the Rafale (radar range and power or missile range for example).

Kind Regards,
USS.

Unipidity
07 Aug 05,, 12:52
Meteor will change that somewhat; despite hating phantom planes that dont exist, I will consider it because Rafale was designed in the knowledge that Meteor will be around within the decade.

LPI radars have been around since donkey's as far as I know. The F-14 had an LPI radar, though no doubt LPI means about as much as 'stealthy'.



Adrian,

here are a few questions:
What do you know about the RCS figures of the Su 30MKI? vis a vis the Rafale?

Sure the rafale is a lo a/c, but what big advantage does this offer when all your weapons are carried externally?

Please don't include the EF 2000 and the Rafale in the same class as the Raptor Keep the Raptor out of it.

The active cancellation bit sounds impressive, has it been implemented ? Also I thought only the AESA radars were LPI radars. Are you referring to the future (AMSAR?) or the current RBE2?

Rangewise and pricewise (you could probly have 2 MKIs for one Rafale!), the MKI has too much of an advantage. It would be hell to pay if the Rafale always wound up in a 1 VS 2 situation against the MKI. At any rate, the MKI, even single handeldy seems to have some definite advantages over the Rafale (radar range and power or missile range for example).

Kind Regards,
USS.

Franco Lolan
07 Aug 05,, 18:16
Isn't the "Meteor"a European BVR AAM?

uss
10 Aug 05,, 01:23
Isn't the "Meteor"a European BVR AAM?

franco, unipidity:

yes, the MBDA made Meteor will change things for certain. And this still won't compensate for the relatively poorer power of the RBE2 vis a vis the Bars NO11M (w. indian computers). The MKI is further scheduled to get a large amount of composites and RCS reduction and the IRBIS radar followed by an AESA. Rafale too should have an AESA in time. It Will be interesting indeed.

USS.

newton
11 Oct 07,, 10:53
Well......... I Belive Even If Pak'tan Gets Them ....india Can Beat Them .we All Know The Standards Of Pilots From Both The Countries .....indian Pilots R Considered 2nd Best After Israelies....

Simullacrum
11 Oct 07,, 11:16
Well......... I Belive Even If Pak'tan Gets Them ....india Can Beat Them .we All Know The Standards Of Pilots From Both The Countries .....indian Pilots R Considered 2nd Best After Israelies....

Man.... people do talk a lot of c'rap..!!!!

cirrrocco
11 Oct 07,, 15:18
Well......... I Belive Even If Pak'tan Gets Them ....india Can Beat Them .we All Know The Standards Of Pilots From Both The Countries .....indian Pilots R Considered 2nd Best After Israelies....


Wow..just wow..there was not a shred of factual evidence when you made that blanket statement...it is ironic considered what your nickname is...Lose the patriotic jingoism man..

Versus
11 Oct 07,, 16:02
This is the ultimate fighter. It is stealth, it is low cost,excellent maneuverability...Sure it needs some upgrades but it is an ideal platform for BVR and WVR fights.
I would replace all metal parts with composite materials, which shouldn't cost much considering that most of the airframe is made out of wood and cloth, which is stealth by default.
Give me some time and I'll post all the modifications here... This will be some kick a$$ airplane.:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Shamus
11 Oct 07,, 17:21
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

glyn
11 Oct 07,, 17:43
This is the ultimate fighter. It is stealth, it is low cost,excellent maneuverability...Sure it needs some upgrades but it is an ideal platform for BVR and WVR fights.
I would replace all metal parts with composite materials, which shouldn't cost much considering that most of the airframe is made out of wood and cloth, which is stealth by default.
Give me some time and I'll post all the modifications here... This will be some kick a$$ airplane.:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

The irony is that the Fokker Dr1 entered service just as the Sopwith Triplane which inspired it was being replaced. I don't think the two types met in combat.

Shamus
11 Oct 07,, 17:45
The irony is that the Fokker Dr1 entered service just as the Sopwith Triplane which inspired it was being replaced. I don't think the two types met in combat.I would still love to find one under the tree come this Holiday season;) :) .

Versus
11 Oct 07,, 17:57
I'm sorry, I..I don't know what is wrong with me...every time I hear stories about stealth supremacy I go crazy...Guess I'm allergic to it.:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Oh boy this will be fun to upgrade...just look how many wingz..:biggrin: :biggrin:

Archer
11 Oct 07,, 18:28
Who resuscitated a two year old thread?

Can this be locked? I hate x vs y threads and I thought the forum had banned them as well. :cool:

Shamus
11 Oct 07,, 21:12
Who resuscitated a two year old thread?

Can this be locked? I hate x vs y threads and I thought the forum had banned them as well. :cool:Yah Archer but Versus made it worthwhile with his revealing of the super secret Super X-1000:biggrin: .

Feanor
11 Oct 07,, 21:51
Haha that was funny, even though resurrecting this borders on necrophilia.

Jimmy
11 Oct 07,, 23:43
Borders on? That's like saying WWII bordered on a series of unfortunate events.

Officer of Engineers
12 Oct 07,, 00:06
Actually, I think we should make it our hobby drowning on dweebs who resurrects these threads.

Feanor
12 Oct 07,, 01:30
Borders on? That's like saying WWII bordered on a series of unfortunate events.

I was trying to be nice :D C'mon give me some credit for trying, I don't do it very often.

Jimmy
12 Oct 07,, 02:03
I know, I was just lashing out because I got beat to mocking the person who resurrected a thread that's been dead for 2 years.

Archer
14 Oct 07,, 03:23
Newton is necrophiliac #1
Simullacrum is at # 2 for replying to Newton
And then comes Cirrocco

The others get a pass. :-x

Officer of Engineers
14 Oct 07,, 04:53
Archer,

You're on this thread ...

Tronic
14 Oct 07,, 05:22
lol... aha!

btw, luv the stealthy Fokker.. :biggrin:

Versus
15 Oct 07,, 18:29
Yah Archer but Versus made it worthwhile with his revealing of the super secret Super X-1000:biggrin: .

Well ladies and gentleman, as you all know the increasing need for protection and security has created need for new weapons which will be able to meet future threats. Stealth concept is the way to go, when it comes to dealing with future threats. It offers considerable advantages over existing designs since it is invisible to radar and infra red means of detection, actual shape of the aircraft and it's aerodynamics are no longer needed. Our prototype of stealth aircraft with triple wings is proved to be successful during the test flights. Unfortunately
due to the high costs of development price of this specific integrated system will be high. The high price of this aircraft forced us to develop a new and cheaper solution for our customers.
Behold as we are presenting today a brand new cheap-but-stealth aircraft.

Ladies and gentleman the Super X-999.99 is here.

Shamus
15 Oct 07,, 18:38
You know Versus,I don't mean to burst your balloon here but.....:rolleyes: :biggrin: .

Versus
15 Oct 07,, 20:04
You know Versus,I don't mean to burst your balloon here but.....:rolleyes: :biggrin: .
Ha,thought of that....it has self sealing cover and self blowing compressor, so as soon it gets penetrated it blows and viola it flies again...:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: ok, I'll be serious from now on...buhahahahahha, yeah right

Feanor
15 Oct 07,, 21:14
http://home.satx.rr.com/gregron/forum-necromancy!.jpg

Versus
15 Oct 07,, 21:57
http://home.satx.rr.com/gregron/forum-necromanc
y!.jpg

The night of the living forums:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Francois
16 Oct 07,, 13:25
I fail to see how an aircraft that is basically a 30 years old airframe with a patchwork of sensors and systems forced to "work" together compares with one that has all its systems designed since the beginning to be integrated in the same optic?
I fail to see.

Jimmy
17 Oct 07,, 00:04
The balloon airframe is much more than 30 years old. :)

Archer
17 Oct 07,, 03:45
Archer,

You're on this thread ...

Thats why I said "the others get a pass". We are just attending the wake. We are decent law abiding folks not into necrophilia and stuff like that.. :biggrin:

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 07,, 04:32
Archer,

I wonder about you. You have a knack of digging the minute details of any weapon system ... what's scary is your more obvious skill at digging up these perverted sexual practices. The Pakistani all Female Repulsion Force comes to mind ... and I rather not have that.

Feanor
17 Oct 07,, 04:54
I fail to see how an aircraft that is basically a 30 years old airframe with a patchwork of sensors and systems forced to "work" together compares with one that has all its systems designed since the beginning to be integrated in the same optic?
I fail to see.

Su-30MK is not quite the same as a regular Flanker. You might want to compare the two in more detail.

Francois
18 Oct 07,, 00:35
I said the airframe is basically the same, and it just is!