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citanon
26 Mar 15,, 02:16
A very disturbing turn in the ongoing investigation:

www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html


A senior military official involved in the investigation described “very smooth, very cool” conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona to Düsseldorf. Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter.

“The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer.”

He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.”

While the audio seemed to give some insight into the circumstances leading up to the Germanwings crash, it also left many questions unanswered.

"We don’t know yet the reason why one of the guys went out,” said the official, who requested anonymity because the investigation is continuing. "But what is sure is that at the very end of the flight, the other pilot is alone and does not open the door."


At the crash site, a senior official working on the investigation said, workers found the casing of the plane’s other black box, the flight data recorder, but the memory card containing data on the plane’s altitude, speed, location and condition was not inside, apparently having been thrown loose or destroyed by the impact.

Blademaster
26 Mar 15,, 03:27
This raises dramatically that this may be a suicide by pilot. Suicide by pilot is every airline's and aviation control agency's worst nightmare because it is so hard to defend against and predict against and screen out.

kato
26 Mar 15,, 11:50
Not necessarily. The copilot (in the cockpit) apparently only had 630 flight hours total so far and had been on this job for about 18 months. The pilot (locked out) had ten times as much flight experience on A320s alone.

Doktor
26 Mar 15,, 13:55
Erm...

Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'started descent' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587?)

Mihais
26 Mar 15,, 14:01
I'm curious what's the Mohammed coeficient of the co-pilot.:rolleyes:

Blademaster
26 Mar 15,, 14:42
I'm curious what's the Mohammed coeficient of the co-pilot.:rolleyes:

Zero. It was a german pilot with a very germanic name. I think you missed another coefficient and that is the Romeo coefficient.

Doktor
26 Mar 15,, 15:09
BM,

Your sarcasmmeter is broken.

kato
26 Mar 15,, 15:27
Zero. It was a german pilot with a very germanic name.
Not particularly Germanic. Even my own last surname is (considerably) more common in Germany, and most people here pronounce it in English instead of German when reading it...

Mihais
27 Mar 15,, 12:35
Zero. It was a german pilot with a very germanic name. I think you missed another coefficient and that is the Romeo coefficient.

Yeah,I just found out he's not a Mohammed.At first glance.

Anyway,too bad the asshole is dead.FFS,there are plenty of trains and high buildings.

Double Edge
27 Mar 15,, 19:59
A very disturbing turn in the ongoing investigation:
Helpless is how i would describe it.

The pilot trying to get back into the cockpit in vain and all of us including the entire civil aviation industry :frown:


Suicide by pilot is every airline's and aviation control agency's worst nightmare because it is so hard to defend against and predict against and screen out.
How often did it happen in the last fifty years ?

The prosecutor disagrees with the term suicide, not when one is responsible for over a hundred lives.

ArtyEngineer
27 Mar 15,, 20:13
Horrible scenario. It sure shows how successful the work to make cockpits secure has been however. How on earth can we regulate or design out this scenario from occuring again? Back to 3 peron flight crews so that if 1 has to leave the cockpit for whatever reason there are still 2 people in there?

citanon
27 Mar 15,, 20:19
Horrible scenario. It sure shows how successful the work to make cockpits secure has been however. How on earth can we regulate or design out this scenario from occuring again? Back to 3 peron flight crews so that if 1 has to leave the cockpit for whatever reason there are still 2 people in there?

The policy in the us has been if one pilot leaves the cockpit, a crew member sits inside to naje sure you never have just one person there. This also solves issues around the remaining pilot having a medical emergency. As of today many airlines in Europe are changing their policy to match .

citanon
27 Mar 15,, 20:22
Helpless is how i would describe it.

The pilot trying to get back into the cockpit in vain and all of us including the entire civil aviation industry :frown:


How often did it happen in the last fifty years ?

The prosecutor disagrees with the term suicide, not when one is responsible for over a hundred lives.

ASN News » List of aircraft accidents and incidents intentionally caused by pilots (http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015/03/26/list-of-aircraft-accidents-and-incidents-deliberately-caused-by-pilots/)

ArtyEngineer
27 Mar 15,, 20:42
The policy in the us has been if one pilot leaves the cockpit, a crew member sits inside to naje sure you never have just one person there. This also solves issues around the remaining pilot having a medical emergency. As of today many airlines in Europe are changing their policy to match .

Ah Ok so the US already operates a 2 man rule basically with a flight attendant being able to fulfill the role as required.

Blademaster
27 Mar 15,, 21:18
The prosecutor disagrees with the term suicide, not when one is responsible for over a hundred lives.

Suicide bombers.

Double Edge
27 Mar 15,, 22:57
ASN News » List of aircraft accidents and incidents intentionally caused by pilots (http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015/03/26/list-of-aircraft-accidents-and-incidents-deliberately-caused-by-pilots/)
Counted 13 incidents (of which two have the word suicide) in around 40 years. Which when compared to the number of flights worldwide since makes deliberate pilot action the least likely of any number of things that could go wrong when flying a plane.


Suicide bombers.
Bombing what ?

he says its not suicide but deliberate.

See citanons list..

'accidents and incidents intentionally caused by pilots'.

Blademaster
27 Mar 15,, 23:19
Counted 13 incidents (of which two have the word suicide) in around 40 years. Which when compared to the number of flights worldwide since makes deliberate pilot action the least likely of any number of things that could go wrong when flying a plane.


Still that event is dramatically higher than a person successfully hijacking a plane so this means it needs to be redressed.



Bombing what ?

he says its not suicide but deliberate.

See citanons list..

'accidents and incidents intentionally caused by pilots'.

You said that the prosecutor said this is not suicide but something else. When a person straps a bomb to his vest and explodes himself and kills other, he is still called a suicide bomber. Hence my terminology, suicide by pilot/plane is correct and media have started calling it suicide by pilot/plane. It is murder too but also suicide.

Double Edge
28 Mar 15,, 01:17
Still that event is dramatically higher than a person successfully hijacking a plane so this means it needs to be redressed.
What can they do ?

The guy locked the door from the inside. code did not work. They will not remove manual locking from the inside as that is the last defense. Hijacking is more probable than pilot deliberately doing this.


You said that the prosecutor said this is not suicide but something else. When a person straps a bomb to his vest and explodes himself and kills other, he is still called a suicide bomber. Hence my terminology, suicide by pilot/plane is correct and media have started calling it suicide by pilot/plane. It is murder too but also suicide.
He did not say anything more. it left me thinking he was implying murder but he did not say that either.

suicide implies killing yourself not others. bomber means others. I can see how you derive it but that is not what the prosecutor is using. The media will use it because its easier to understand.

kato
28 Mar 15,, 10:50
Still that event is dramatically higher than a person successfully hijacking a plane
In numbers? Depends on what one calls successful. Getting the plane under control to the point of rerouting it to a different target? For that the number's considerably higher, especially in the 70s to 90s. The number of "really successful" hijackings in the sense of ransoms being paid or similar (or the political statement of the hijackers being successfully brought forward by e.g. crashing the plane) is somewhere in the very low double-digits too.

DonBelt
30 Mar 15,, 04:46
More on the door locking and emergency access on an Airbus 320:

Q&A: How do you open a cockpit door from the outside? - U.S. - Stripes (http://www.stripes.com/news/us/q-a-how-do-you-open-a-cockpit-door-from-the-outside-1.336804)

lemontree
30 Mar 15,, 10:22
it is time they made parachutes mandatory for passengers. With such nutcases around, who knows...

Blademaster
30 Mar 15,, 15:00
it is time they made parachutes mandatory for passengers. With such nutcases around, who knows...

I was thinking more along the lines of ejectable cabins.

citanon
30 Mar 15,, 18:12
it is time they made parachutes mandatory for passengers. With such nutcases around, who knows...

How about just allowing selective ejection of the nutcase?

And now we know this guy was once treated for suicidal tendencies:

Germanwings Flight 9525 co-pilot suicidal at one time - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/30/europe/france-germanwings-plane-crash-main/index.html)

Blademaster
03 Apr 15,, 21:58
Germanwings crash: Co-pilot Lubitz 'accelerated descent' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32173632)

This is definitely mass murder. There will be heads rolled even though the scumbag tried to hide his suicidal tendencies. The heads that will be rolled most likely would be the persons in charge of hiring and managing pilots.

Double Edge
03 Apr 15,, 23:14
head rolling is for public consumption. Will they in the future be better able to spot a suicical tendency ? heh no.

There is a very simple recommendation in DonBelt's post. That would make such an incident less likely which is really what everybody wants.