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Batista
13 Feb 15,, 11:06
Indian grandfather injured by Madison police sues over excessive force | AL.com (http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/02/indian_grandfather_injured_by.html)

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Sureshbhai Patel was visiting from India, staying with his son, Chirag, his wife and child in their Madison home. After being in the States for almost a week, Sureshbhai was walking through the neighborhood, Friday, Feb. 6, 2015, when Madison Police Officers received a call about a "suspicious person" in the neighborhood. They found Sureshbhai, who couldn't speak English, injuring him after forcing him to the ground. Sureshbhai has been in the hospital since, and the Madison Police Department is investigating the force used by officers on the scene.


The lawyer representing Sureshbhai Patel this morning sued the City of Madison and two individual police officers, arguing the violent stop of the small Indian grandfather violated federal protections against illegal search and seizure.

"Patel, a 57-year-old citizen of India visiting his son in Madison, Alabama, took a walk in his son's neighborhood, was violently assaulted by Madison Officer Doe without provocation, and left partially paralyzed," reads the suit filed today by attorney Hank Sherrod.

The two officers are identified as John Doe and Jim Smith, as Madison has not released the names of the officers involved. Both are sued in their individual capacity.Patel, a citizen of India and a permanent resident in the United States, was walking on Friday morning along Hardiman Place Lane, just outside his son's new home in Madison, when a patrol car pulled up. No crime had been committed and no charges would be filed, but the ensuring encounter left Patel hospitalized.

"Patel is a small man, weighing between 130 and 140 pounds, probably closer to 130, and is narrow of frame and mild of manner. He appeared to be nothing other than the grandfather from India he was," reads the lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court by civil rights attorney Hank Sherrod.

"The officers nevertheless came up to Patel and, despite the absence of any reason to believe Patel was armed or presented any kind of danger or threat, searched Patel for weapons," contends the lawsuit. "After the search, without provocation, (the younger officer) grabbed Patel's left arm, twisted it behind his back, and slammed Patel face first into the ground."

The suit also claims the encounter violated state protections against assault and excessive force. Madison police have placed the officer on administrative leave pending the outcome of their internal investigation.

Madison police on Monday released a statement saying that the patrol car had responded to a call about a suspicious man peering into garages. The lawsuit questions whether there was such a call."Whether there actually was a call or whether the caller actually accused Patel of looking into garages cannot be verified because to date the City refuses to release any recordings or reports that exist related to the incident," reads the suit.The lawsuit also contends there was nothing suspicious about Patel's appearance. "Patel dressed for the walk in plain pants, a button shirt, and a sweater and wore a knit cap on his head. Patel had nothing in his pants except for a green patterned handkerchief that was later used by officers to wipe blood from Patel's face."

The next line in the lawsuit simply states: "Patel has dark brown skin." The police statement said the two officers stopping Patel encountered a "communication barrier."

Sureshbhai Patel's son, Chirag Patel, came to the United States to study electrical engineering, married and became a U.S. Citizen. Chiriag Patel applied for and received permanent resident status for his father. His father had arrived about a week before the incident in order to help care for the couple's 17-month-old son.However, Sureshbhai Patel does not speak English. He speaks Gujarati.The suit says: "While still walking, Patel told the officers, not necessarily in this order, 'no English,' 'Indian,' 'walking,' and pointed down the street and said 'house number [actual number].'""The officers again ordered Patel to stop, and Patel stopped." Police then got out of the car."Patel continued to attempt to explain the situation to the officers."

The suit contends the stop at this point was without reasonable suspicion or probable cause and was therefore itself a violation of the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution.The statement from Madison police on Monday said: "The subject began putting his hands in his pockets. Officers attempted to pat the subject down and he attempted to pull away. The subject was forced to the ground, which resulted in injury."

"Was the call or the false accusation against Patel fabricated by the Madison Police Department to deflect criticism for paralyzing an innocent man?" The suit says: "Patel's face was bloodied, but, much worse, there was significant trauma to Patel's cervical spine, and he immediately became paralyzed in his arms and legs."

The officer who forced Patel to the ground, contends the lawsuit, violated rights protected by the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments. "Specifically, he violated plaintiff's right to be free from excessive force," reads the suit.

Patel was taken by ambulance to Madison Hospital. The hospital called his son at work. Patel was transferred to Huntsville Hospital for cervical fusion surgery. Chirag Patel said as of Tuesday his father could move his arms again, but lacked grip in his hands. He could move one leg, but the other remained paralyzed."Patel has begun physical therapy, is making progress, and hopes to make a full recovery, though the rehabilitation process is expected to be lengthy and difficult, and it is not known whether Patel will make a full recovery," reads the suit.

Sherrod, attorney for Patel, repeatedly questioned the official version of events.

Batista
13 Feb 15,, 11:16
Alabama Cop Who Paralyzed Indian Citizen Fired, Arrested / Sputnik International (http://sputniknews.com/news/20150213/1018202494.html)

VIDEO RELEASED of the attack where the 57 year old "brown skin" old man is violently thrashed on the ground on his face and left paralyzed.


http://video-embed.al.com/services/player/bcpid1949044313001?bctid=4049615536001&bckey=AQ~~,AAAAPLMIMAE~,kKetLjW2WxUgiRmvwWvrX1zHOE tf9iIT

Smart Player (http://video-embed.al.com/services/player/bcpid1949044313001?bctid=4049615536001&bckey=AQ~~,AAAAPLMIMAE~,kKetLjW2WxUgiRmvwWvrX1zHOE tf9iIT)

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Video shows Alabama police throwing grandfather from India to the ground
Watch dashboard camera footage of Madison police officer throw Sureshbhai Patel the ground paralyzing him.

Batista
13 Feb 15,, 11:36
Well done Alabama Cops!!! Alabama White Cops made their day checking strength on a old helpless man.

So few days ago US President OBAMA was preaching "brown" Indians in India about being tolerant and reciting "Gandhi". :rolleyes:

Why is OBAMA silent now when his own house is burning deeply on racism and responsible for so many wars and strife and killings of millions around the world? The Ferguson fire was not even doused and now attack on a old "brown" man.Attacks on Sikhs and their temples is not new anymore since average American doesn't know the difference at all.

Mr Obama should do some soul searching before preaching others about tolerance and human rights and all those big words.Seems like he is blaberring just anything without thinking.

If Martin Luthar King was alive he might have put his head in shame to see RACISM still prevalent and his efforts gone in gutter.

America is Great!

TopHatter
13 Feb 15,, 13:11
Well done Alabama Cops!!! Alabama White Cops made their day checking strength on a old helpless man.

So few days ago US President OBAMA was preaching "brown" Indians in India about being tolerant and reciting "Gandhi". :rolleyes:

Why is OBAMA silent now when his own house is burning deeply on racism and responsible for so many wars and strife and killings of millions around the world? The Ferguson fire was not even doused and now attack on a old "brown" man.Attacks on Sikhs and their temples is not new anymore since average American doesn't know the difference at all.

Mr Obama should do some soul searching before preaching others about tolerance and human rights and all those big words.Seems like he is blaberring just anything without thinking.

If Martin Luthar King was alive he might have put his head in shame to see RACISM still prevalent and his efforts gone in gutter.

America is Great!
Feel better now? You might want to wipe off yoyour keyboard and monitor. God only knows what all those bodily fluids will do to consumer electronics if left unattended.

Batista
13 Feb 15,, 13:38
Feel better now? You might want to wipe off yoyour keyboard and monitor. God only knows what all those bodily fluids will do to consumer electronics if left unattended.

Have any constructive thing to add on the topic?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10959731_609745822460063_1929900087184142104_n.jpg ?oh=c288eb87a59c13ba7679924555b1593b&oe=556527C8&__gda__=1431318896_c9ccecb988a320cbc75cca9fa53a4ff 3

TopHatter
13 Feb 15,, 13:49
Constructive? Oh I'm sorry did I ruin your Tu Quoque orgasm-fest? Would you like some Kleenex or something?

You're not looking for "constructive". You're looking for "Oh my God Batista you are SO right about those evil bastard Americans please Sir tell us MORE!!"

Batista
13 Feb 15,, 14:46
Constructive? Oh I'm sorry did I ruin your Tu Quoque orgasm-fest? Would you like some Kleenex or something?

You're not looking for "constructive". You're looking for "Oh my God Batista you are SO right about those evil bastard Americans please Sir tell us MORE!!"

No, I am not here for "American bashing" otherwise you would see me in all the similar threads running around on racial intolerance specially Ferguson thread.It's you abusing Americans. If anything similar happened in India then hell would break lose and all the International Media would be after it.

I wanted to put a thread on Obama's stupid comment about "Tolerance and Gandhi" even after he received overwhelming welcome in India but then abstained.He did a very ungrateful and immature thing to bring "Gandhi" into the picture and destroy his own recently elevated reputation.Highly Hypocritical.

But now when I see that there is so much of intolerance happening to non-whites it's shocking that Obama has so much hot air in him to preach others when the home is burning.These days he is just shooting anything from his mouth.In other thread he gave cover fire to ISIS (about Christians used to do the same what ISIS is doing today in 21st century) which has raised eyebrows.Before Gandhi he needs to remember Martin Luthar King.

You still haven't commented anything on the topic and not even regret or if that was wrong.

Albany Rifles
13 Feb 15,, 14:56
Batista, calm down. While you have every reason to be outraged over the actions of one asshatted police officer, do not try to broadbrush all American law enforcement.

That the civil authorities stepped in and got rid of this clown is the right thing to do.

You know damn well that you have had excesses in your own country. What the President was saying is it is better for all to follow Ganhi's ways...somethign in light of recent events IN BOTH countries you appear to refuse to acknowledge.

I am addressing this as a mederator as this thread appears to only be intended to inflame and bait. If you want to have an open and respectful dialogue, continue. If you want to flamebait I will close the thread and you could face possible WAB discipline.

In other words, check yourself before you wreck yourself.

This subject DOES deserve a thorough discussion and airing....but this is not the path to take.

Oracle
13 Feb 15,, 17:04
This indeed was Police excess. And I'm glad the idiot cop was suspended. He needs to spend his life behind bars. What the hell was he thinking in the age of FB & Twitter? Fool.

I've read a lot in here about Police brutality in US, however, one question for US members, are Police really that brutal in US? What do you guys think? Where is Z :)

Joe, :biggrin:

DarthSiddius
13 Feb 15,, 17:07
Sorry state of affairs, but it does bring up the question if this was just the lone officer abusing his power or is it a police training issue? The Indian man didn't know any English and was probably unable to comply with or understand the police's instructions. What would be the modus operandi in such a situation? As it turned out, not knowing the local language / culture turned out to be disastrous for the man.

Someone thought he was suspicious enough to call the police just because he was looking into garages?

Video of the incident:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ipw8eIrq00

tuna
13 Feb 15,, 17:20
Two asshatted officers, not one. The one that didn't stop his partner from roid-raging on the little guy is just as much to blame, and deserves just as much jail time as the actual assailant.

Are cops in the US that brutal, you ask Oracle? The answer is sadly, in my opinion, yes.

Too many cops have allowed themselves to be turned into bullies who feel they have nothing to fear. Even if they get caught, the department and union will back them. The fact that these two are facing charges as individuals is a good sign.

Even worse are the cops who tolerate this behavior.

Oracle
13 Feb 15,, 17:27
Two asshatted officers, not one. The one that didn't stop his partner from roid-raging on the little guy is just as much to blame, and deserves just as much jail time as the actual assailant.

Are cops in the US that brutal, you ask Oracle? The answer is sadly, in my opinion, yes.

Too many cops have allowed themselves to be turned into bullies who feel they have nothing to fear. Even if they get caught, the department and union will back them. The fact that these two are facing charges as individuals is a good sign.

Even worse are the cops who tolerate this behavior.

Okay, so 2 of them are facing charges. Good. How does the department back them when there are cameras in Police vehicles recording stuff that happens? And Police have unions? What unions? I thought only communists have unions.

astralis
13 Feb 15,, 17:29
those cops are truly brain-dead. they know the person doesn't speak English, but continues to warn the person in English, commit bodily harm in a takedown of a old man, and then states "“I don’t know what his problem is, but he won’t listen,”.

they should all be thrown in prison. and the neighbor who called the police on him is a freaking racist paranoid.

===

Alabama police officer arrested after Indian grandfather left partially paralyzed - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/11/alabama-cops-leave-a-grandfather-partially-paralyzed-after-frisk-goes-awry/?tid=hpModule_4697cf50-868d-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394)


The department also released portions of audio and video pertaining to the incident. In a non-emergency call to police, a neighbor described Patel as a “skinny black guy” and said that he’d “never seen him before” in the neighborhood. Patel, he said, was “just wandering around” and “walking close to the garage.” The caller added that he was following Patel at a distance. When asked to estimate his age, the caller guessed Patel was in his 30′s.

The neighbor also told the police dispatcher he was “nervous” leaving his wife because of Patel’s presence in the neighborhood.

...

Two videos of the incident later released by Madison police include both audio of the officers involved, and visuals of the exchange. In one video, a pair of officers approach Patel and ask him where he’s headed, what his address is, and request to see his ID. One officer says, “he’s saying ‘no English.’ ” The second officer continues to ask Patel questions, including “are you looking at houses and stuff?”

Sureshbhai Patel said he tried to tell the officers that he doesn’t speak English by saying “No English. Indian. Walking,” according to the lawsuit. He says he repeated his son’s house number and pointed toward the residence.

In the police video, an officer then tells Patel, “Do not jerk away from me again. If you do, I’m gonna put you on the ground.” The officer asks, “Do you understand?” and tells Patel to “relax.”

That’s when an officer twisted his arm behind his back, Patel said, and forced him to the ground, face-first. His face was bloodied, but worse, he also injured his neck and was left paralyzed in his arms and legs, the lawsuit alleges.

One of the two police videos shows the officer holding Patel forcefully, pushing him to the ground. Patel, on the ground, is then told to “chill out” by one of the officers. The officer tells a third, approaching officer that Patel doesn’t “speak a lick of English,” and that they were trying to pat him down. “I don’t know what his problem is, but he won’t listen,” one of the officers adds.

Patel remains on the ground as the officers call for medical assistance.

“Stand up, let’s go,” one officer says. “You’re all right.” For several minutes, the officers repeatedly attempt to get Patel off the ground and into a patrol car.

One officer asks, “He OK?”

astralis
13 Feb 15,, 17:34
it seems to be something in the water down South:

Police performing welfare check on elderly Army veteran end up killing him instead - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/09/police-performing-welfare-check-on-elderly-army-veteran-end-up-killing-him-instead/)

geezus.

Oracle
13 Feb 15,, 17:37
Well, crimes would forever go on, and some racists would always be there. Shit happens, and I don't think brushing all Americans as racists is a nice thing to do. Every country has it's share of bad apples. Just a week or so ago a Japanese tourist was raped in India. If someone says all Indians are rapists, I would punch him on his face.

TopHatter
13 Feb 15,, 17:39
For the record, I find this incident to be extremely disturbing and most unfortunate. From all appearances, Mr. Patel did nothing to warrant this sort of brutal attack and hopefully the Madison PD chief will follow through with his proposal to terminate the officer. Certainly being arrested for assault would warrant that action at the very least.


but it does bring up the question if this was just the lone officer abusing his power or is it a police training issue?
Probably both, and hopefully there will be training for this sort of encounter, not merely in Madison but on a national level.


Someone thought he was suspicious enough to call the police just because he was looking into garages?
If somebody was merely walking along a sidewalk and looking in the direction of an open garage, that doesn't sound terribly suspicious to me.

On the other hand, somebody actually walking up the driveway to the garage itself, that would be trespassing and cause for calling for the police. The 911 call stated that somebody was "looking into windows". Personally I would've called the police if that was case.


MADISON, AL (WAFF) -
A Madison City police officer was arrested after an Indian grandfather was partially paralyzed following a use of force case on Friday.

The Madison City Police Department held a news conference on Thursday on the incident.
Police released the audio of the 911 call as well as the dash cam video of the incident. The dash cam video showed Sureshbhai Patel being thrown to the ground.

The caller said a skinny black man in his 30's had been looking in windows. When police got to the scene, they found Patel, an Indian man in his late 60s.

Officers are heard asking Patel where he lives and where he's going. It appears in the video Patel already has his hands cuffed behind his back when officer Eric Parker body slams Patel into the ground.

Officers then tell Patel to stand up. You see him struggling and he's unable to do so. Madison City Chief of Police Larry Muncy said he and the entire department are sorry.

Muncey said the actions of Parker "did not meet the high standards of the Madison Police Department." He then proposed termination and said the officer turned himself in to the Limestone County Sheriff's Office and was arrested for assault. It is not yet known if he is out on bond.

"I sincerely apologize to Mr. Patel, Mr. Patel's family, and our community," said Muncey. "We strive to exceed expectations."

Patel filed a civil rights lawsuit against the Madison Police Department following Friday's incident.

The lawsuit accuses two officers of illegal seizure, unlawful search, excessive force, and false imprisonment. The filing said Patel was violently assaulted by one of the officers.

According to the lawsuit, Patel took his normal walk route on Hardiman Place Lane. The lawsuit states he was wearing plain pants, a button down shirt, sweater, and knit cap.

Madison Police say they received a call about a suspicious man looking in garages. Both parties agree the officers approached Patel and asked him to stop. The lawsuit states Patel told the officers “no English,” “Indian,” “walking.”

Patel says one of the officers grabbed his arm, twisted it behind his back, and slammed his face into the ground.

The lawsuit also said this caused significant damage to Patel's spine, and that he became immediately paralyzed. He has since regained arm movement and some use of his right leg.

Patel says arrived in the U.S. days before the encounter to help his son and daughter-in-law care for their 17-month-old son.

A GoFundMe has been set up for Patel. Click here to see it.

Officials said the FBI is involved in the review of this case and will be checking to see if any federal violations occurred during the incident. Link (http://www.myfoxal.com/story/28096502/madison-police-officer-arrested-for-assault-in-paralyzed-grandfather-case)

DarthSiddius
13 Feb 15,, 18:01
In a non-emergency call to police, a neighbor described Patel as a “skinny black guy” and said that he’d “never seen him before” in the neighborhood. Patel, he said, was “just wandering around” and “walking close to the garage.” The caller added that he was following Patel at a distance. When asked to estimate his age, the caller guessed Patel was in his 30′s.

So the guy calling in to the police got the age and ethnicity wrong, that should have thrown doubts over his credibility. "Just wandering around" and, allegedly, "walking close to the garage" shouldn't evoke the response appropriated.

astralis
13 Feb 15,, 18:07
BM-- feel free to discuss with TH/Oracle in private, but not here.

I don't want to close this thread over these petty arguments...but I will if I have to.

Blademaster
13 Feb 15,, 18:09
By the way, for those who criticized the police officer's beatdown of this elderly gentleman, time to put your money where your mouth is. Here is the link to contribute to paying off this man's medical bills. He has no health insurance. I have donated a significant amount of money to his fund.

Sureshbhai Patel's Recovery Fund by Aakash Patel - GoFundMe (http://www.gofundme.com/m757pw)

TopHatter
13 Feb 15,, 18:20
So the guy calling in to the police got the age and ethnicity wrong, that should have thrown doubts over his credibility.An incorrect eyewitness account regarding age and ethnicity is about as common as you can get. Both can difficult to determine even when up close.


"Just wandering around" and, allegedly, "walking close to the garage" shouldn't evoke the response appropriated.
If by "response appropriated" you're referring to Mr. Patel being slammed to ground, then no certainly not.

DarthSiddius
13 Feb 15,, 18:33
An incorrect eyewitness account regarding age and ethnicity is about as common as you can get. Both can difficult to determine even when up close.

Fair enough, but I do feel the police should have read the situation differently after establishing contact with Patel.



If by "response appropriated" you're referring to Mr. Patel being slammed to ground, then no certainly not.

What I'm trying to say is even if the guy was trespassing, the employed approach of acting without understanding the scene first is what ultimately lead to this. I'm not automatically inclined to assume that this was a racist police officer(s)' downright abuse of power. (This could very well be the case here but there have been similar police excesses before)

YellowFever
13 Feb 15,, 18:34
it seems to be something in the water down South:

Police performing welfare check on elderly Army veteran end up killing him instead - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/09/police-performing-welfare-check-on-elderly-army-veteran-end-up-killing-him-instead/)

geezus.

Please don't blame this on the "water down South".

You're as guilty as Batista for flaming using words like that.

As far as these two cops are concerned, they should be fired immediately and brought up on charges to the full extent of the law starting with but not limited to abuse of power.

TopHatter
13 Feb 15,, 18:39
Fair enough, but I do feel the police should have read the situation differently after establishing contact with Patel.Oh without question they should have. At the very least in fact.



What I'm trying to say is even if the guy was trespassing, the employed approach of acting without understanding the scene first is what ultimately lead to this. I'm not automatically inclined to assume that this was a racist police officer(s)' downright abuse of power. (This could very well be the case here but there have been similar police excesses before)
Again, no argument from me at all. I'm also not automatically inclined to assume racism is the case here, although it could certainly be pointed to as a possible factor.

IMHO, I think that what Tuna said (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/american-politics-economy/65960-alabama-cops-attacked-paralyzed-indian-grandfather-using-excessive-force.html#post987584) is more likely the case: A police officer "roid-raging" on a smaller person. Police usage of steroids is a bad problem here in the United States and not something that gets a great deal of mainstream attention. I'd be curious to see what would happen if they tested this guy for anabolic steroids

tuna
13 Feb 15,, 19:30
How does the department back them when there are cameras in Police vehicles recording stuff that happens? And Police have unions? What unions? I thought only communists have unions.

If it can be determined that the officer was acting according to department policies, then they cover whatever it is that the officer is accused of. Worst case is usually paid time off. If the officer is found at fault, the city pays the lawsuit.
In other words, they are not held accountable to their actions. And you wonder why these events occur.
This is what I was talking about in another post. Instead of focusing on police behavior in general, it is made into a race issue. This takes the focus off the real problem, and takes those who aren't of the affected race out of the equation.


Yes - police departments have unions.

Blademaster
13 Feb 15,, 19:37
If it can be determined that the officer was acting according to department policies, then they cover whatever it is that the officer is accused of. Worst case is usually paid time off. If the officer is found at fault, the city pays the lawsuit.
In other words, they are not held accountable to their actions. And you wonder why these events occur.
This is what I was talking about in another post. Instead of focusing on police behavior in general, it is made into a race issue. This takes the focus off the real problem, and takes those who aren't of the affected race out of the equation.


Yes - police departments have unions.

This is why unions should be held financially responsible for any action that the police officer may make. Why should the city be forced to bear all the costs? The costs should be split between the city for failure to provide adequate supervision and ensuring that no laws or policies were broken and the union for failure to enforce that supervision and laws and policies and send a message that no one gets off the hook.

I hope that the police officer gets sued as personally liable and that there will be a federal civil suit against him.

gunnut
13 Feb 15,, 19:53
Well done Alabama Cops!!! Alabama White Cops made their day checking strength on a old helpless man.

So few days ago US President OBAMA was preaching "brown" Indians in India about being tolerant and reciting "Gandhi". :rolleyes:

Why is OBAMA silent now when his own house is burning deeply on racism and responsible for so many wars and strife and killings of millions around the world? The Ferguson fire was not even doused and now attack on a old "brown" man.Attacks on Sikhs and their temples is not new anymore since average American doesn't know the difference at all.

Mr Obama should do some soul searching before preaching others about tolerance and human rights and all those big words.Seems like he is blaberring just anything without thinking.

If Martin Luthar King was alive he might have put his head in shame to see RACISM still prevalent and his efforts gone in gutter.

America is Great!

If it makes you feel better, our cops beat our own people too. :tongue:

Albany Rifles
13 Feb 15,, 20:50
1. Madison, AL PD is not unionized.

2. Yellow, it is a disturbing trend throughout much of the country (Zraver will probably faint when he reads that I wrote that). However, there is little question that incidents are on the rise in the South against non-white populations. It is not something in the water but it is something which is trending.

3. Gunnut, you are not helping.

YellowFever
13 Feb 15,, 21:35
2. Yellow, it is a disturbing trend throughout much of the country (Zraver will probably faint when he reads that I wrote that). However, there is little question that incidents are on the rise in the South against non-white populations. It is not something in the water but it is something which is trending.
.

Statistics please.

Because everything I read from the DOJ and the NAACP suggests that North Eastern and South West police depts. are the biggest offenders.

39195

citanon
13 Feb 15,, 21:58
The responsible officer has been charged with assault and is going to be fired. This is an example of the system working.

The instances when it's not working are the incidents that never come to the light of day because they are not caught on video and the victim isn't such a blatantly sympathetic figure.

IMHO every police department in the country need to make body cam use a de facto requirement in potentially confrontational situations with serious penalties for non-compliant officers.


I'm sure the great majority of officers are dedicated, law abiding individuals who are out to protect the communities they serve. On the other hand, abuse of power is a part of the human condition. When you have as much authority as police officers do and as many opportunities to abuse that power as they face, abuses are inevitable. Public supervision and transparency is critical.

cirrrocco
13 Feb 15,, 23:07
Well done Alabama Cops!!! Alabama White Cops made their day checking strength on a old helpless man.

So few days ago US President OBAMA was preaching "brown" Indians in India about being tolerant and reciting "Gandhi". :rolleyes:
----

wow, calm down man. you are gonna get paralyzed at a young age , getting worked up like this. The cop has been arrested. let's see what's gonna happen. I just dont want him to get his pension and get his job back after a jaunt in a fun prison.

cirrrocco
13 Feb 15,, 23:10
This indeed was Police excess. And I'm glad the idiot cop was suspended. He needs to spend his life behind bars. What the hell was he thinking in the age of FB & Twitter? Fool.

I've read a lot in here about Police brutality in US, however, one question for US members, are Police really that brutal in US? What do you guys think? Where is Z :)

Joe, :biggrin:

check out
PINAC - Be the Media - Little Brother Watching Big Brother (http://photographyisnotacrime.com/)
Cop Block | Reporting Police Abuse, Brutality, and Corruption (http://www.copblock.org/)

Mind blown, and how blatant the liars are wearing blue. There should be double the punishment, for people supposed to 'protect and serve'. They just protect and serve their own kind.

astralis
14 Feb 15,, 00:26
YF,


Statistics please.

Because everything I read from the DOJ and the NAACP suggests that North Eastern and South West police depts. are the biggest offenders.

my earlier remark was simply because the recent spate of police misconduct seem to be in the South.

i have to say i'm a bit surprised you went to...Mother Jones...for the map there ;) if there's somewhere more left than HuffPo, you found the place!

that map is problematic, because it relies on places where there were DOJ investigations. plenty of places where it never rose to that level, or gained media attention. yet that's the only one the author of that Mother Jones piece used, because there is very little in the way of statistics for police brutality. there's no national reporting requirement, and many states hide their data, or collect different types of data.

so we're left with these one-off incidents, which are telling in their own way, as was, for instance, the police response to the ferguson protests.

do you really think that if it was, say, oh a german grandfather taking a walk...that he would be reported as "suspicious"? or, when the police came up to him, would start ordering him about in English even after knowing he couldn't speak? and then knock him down so hard to paralyze the man, and wonder why he wouldn't listen?

and this was close to huntsville, where there IS a pretty diverse community by Southern standards, courtesy of NASA.

zraver
14 Feb 15,, 00:54
This indeed was Police excess. And I'm glad the idiot cop was suspended. He needs to spend his life behind bars. What the hell was he thinking in the age of FB & Twitter? Fool.

That he has powerful protections that sheild him from the laws he enforces and a near cart blanche to do as he will.


I've read a lot in here about Police brutality in US, however, one question for US members, are Police really that brutal in US? What do you guys think? Where is Z :)

Joe, :biggrin:

Yes, US cops are that brutal. If you look at use of force percentages for the tiny percentage of US cops who have college degrees and compare them to the generally GED/HS diploma majority of beat cops you see a hugely different approach to policing. Its funny, teachers in the US generally need a 4 year degree and do not hold the power of life and death. Cops make the same or more than teachers and have guns but don't require any special education other than a brief stint at an academy. Through the early part of Febuary 2015, over 100 citizens had been killed including several unarmed cases reminiscent of the big cases of 2014. 0 Cops were shot by citizens, though a couple were shot be other cops. I think the first cop killed by a citizen this year was killed by his lady love who killed him and then called 9-11 to report the shooting stating, "he was getting ready to hit me again".

The US has more laws than any nation on Earth and incarcerates more of its own citizens than anyone. If we judge freedom by the number of laws and the number of prisoners, the US cannot claim to be "The Land Of The Free".

I really feel bad for this Indian grandfather who has discovered that Land of the Free and Home of the brave has become the land of the oppressed and the home of the enforcer. Its gotten so bad in many parts of the country even "white" people are getting nervous.

gunnut
14 Feb 15,, 01:17
Fullerton, CA, will be the first city in Orange County to have every single cop wear a body camera to record interactions between police and public. This should reduce needless violence and provide more confidence in the police from the public.

Bigfella
14 Feb 15,, 01:26
If Martin Luthar King was alive he might have put his head in shame to see RACISM still prevalent and his efforts gone in gutter.

Its spelled 'Luthor'. Have you never read Batman?

Mohan
14 Feb 15,, 05:34
Its spelled 'Luthor'. Have you never read Batman?

I think it's spelled as "Luther". You should have read it.

Martin Luther King, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr).

kuku
14 Feb 15,, 07:09
I think it's spelled as "Luther". You should have read it.

That was funny....

Bigfella, you racist, every black guy you see you associate with Luthor eh!
39198

USA has to improve its piss poor policing record, (to all who will say back to me what about India, India has real funding and training issues), as a nation made out of money, USA should have no such excuse, this is just ignorance, bigotry.

I feel sad for all my fellow countrymen who have to work in USA, the money is good but then its not quite Ghandinagar, is it?
Just like i feel sad for my relatives who live in Delhi and are called Chinki on a daily basis....

This world needs people to loose their ignorance.

Officer of Engineers
14 Feb 15,, 07:12
Its spelled 'Luthor'. Have you never read Batman?You dumb ass. Luthor is Superman's kissing buddy. The Joker is Batman's.

Bigfella
14 Feb 15,, 07:38
You dumb ass. Luthor is Superman's kissing buddy. The Joker is Batman's.

Apologies sir. Nice to see one of us is on the ball. I think I was being too subtle, even for myself. :biggrin:

Bigfella
14 Feb 15,, 07:41
That was funny....

Bigfella, you racist, every black guy you see you associate with Luthor eh!
39198


When did Lex go blackface? Damn. Missed a memo.


USA has to improve its piss poor policing record, (to all who will say back to me what about India, India has real funding and training issues), as a nation made out of money, USA should have no such excuse, this is just ignorance, bigotry.

I feel sad for all my fellow countrymen who have to work in USA, the money is good but then its not quite Ghandinagar, is it?
Just like i feel sad for my relatives who live in Delhi and are called Chinki on a daily basis....

This world needs people to loose their ignorance.

Agree about the US. There are clearly some serious problems there. I would never hold up Australian police forces as some model of good behaviour, but the preparedness of US police to resort to force, often lethal, is truly disturbing.

Bigfella
14 Feb 15,, 07:50
I think it's spelled as "Luther". You should have read it.

Martin Luther King, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr).

You are correct, of course. :)

MLK is one of my favourite people. I read & watched heavily about the Civil Rights movement from my late teens to my mid-20s. Whatever his personal flaws, King was a towering leader & perhaps the finest orator I have ever heard. His speeches can still bring me to tears. I consider it one of the privileges of my life that I got to visit the site of his death with two former WABbers some years ago. On that same trip I got to visit the new MLK memorial in DC and stand on the exact spot on the Lincoln memorial where he made his 'I have a dream' speech'. Fair to say it gave me shivers.

Fair to say Batista dramatically undermined any force his points might have had by misspelling King's name.

Monash
14 Feb 15,, 09:29
Still, US law enforcement - at least at the Country/City level seems to have a real public image problem on their hands. As I've said before there appears, in some jurisdictions at least to be a growing disconnect between LEA and the communities they serve. One assumes many local heads of department would be concerned enough to be contemplating community engagement and trust building programs of some form or another. There may also be training and recruitment issues at play as well though you would have to look closely at such things on a statewide basis to be sure. It would also help if both the Forces and Unions concerned didn't come out 'swinging' with automatic public statements in support of officers after shooting incidents etc before the incident investigation is finished. Full support for the member concerned in the background of course, but no public statements until the facts are known. (That's how it's done here at least.)

All of the above is only an impression I'm getting from afar by the way. It is certainly not intended as a criticism of the US law enforcement per se. Constant engagement with the community, impartial and open investigations with 'lessons learned' reviews afterwards for the troops as well as good leadership that won't tolerate a 'them and us' attitude to community policing would be a big plus at this point in time - for some local departments at least.

Albany Rifles
14 Feb 15,, 21:27
I am intrigued by how international posters who are making judgements on the LEA in the US based on...what?

Do you know or have you lived here?

Or is it all what you read and see in the media?

There are over 18,000 police agencies in the US split between federal, state and local with approxiamtely 450,000 sworn officers.

Over half of those officers serve in small rural departments with 12 officers or less.

There are no rigid set of standards for police officers nationwide....and I doubt we Americans would ever agree to a national police force. So the are are a myriad of convaluted issues which stand in the way of a single force.

And unlike many companies, the US military is expressly forbidden to take part in law enforcement other than under extremely rare circumstances.

All of the said, the vast majority of police officers in my country are concientious, hard working men and women who truly do try to protect and serve. They have to serve in incredibly stressful environments requiring split second decisions which could result in a life lost...theirs, a citizen's or a criminals. In almost all cases they make the right call.

Are ther clowns and assholes?

Yup....but look around your workplace and see if it is absent of the 2 above.

I live in a rural county in South with an 102 person police department. They have to patrol a very large area with an incredibly doverse population....US military members, farmers, a large migrant community overlaid by 2 interstate highways and 2 major state highways....with a major US river thrown in to boot. They write tickets, saolve cases of breakins, back up the military police on FT Lee, lend assistance to other jurisdications and patrol the James River.

They do all of this while being in an open war against the MS13 gang. There are bounties on the heads of 7 officers of our force because they all arrested 4 ringleaders who were harrassing the Hispanic migrant community.

I can't remember the last time a cop shot anyone in my county.

I can't remember the last time a cop in our county fired a shot...and I know a bunch of the officers on the force.

And from my personnel experience living in several parts of the country...that is pretty much the norm.

I received more scrutiny and hassle from police in Germany, France and Poland than I ever have in the US.

Yet I don't pretend to know the day to day operations of the police forces in those countries.

And I do not judge them.

So going back to the case at hand....if you wish to condemn the 2 police officers at question here.

Fine.

But do not brush all of the men and women of US LEAs as the same.

Because you are wrong.

PS: If you want to Google my county and try to prove me wrong...make sure you are reading about Prince George County, VIRGINIA and not Prince George's County, MARYLAND.

zraver
14 Feb 15,, 22:51
Alby, the number of sworn officers is 800,000ish with a total of 1.1 million law enforcement employees many of which have specialized arrest powers- jailers, bailiffs, constables etc.

Bigfella
15 Feb 15,, 01:37
I am intrigued by how international posters who are making judgements on the LEA in the US based on...what?

Do you know or have you lived here?

Or is it all what you read and see in the media?


A lot of it is based on the information I come across in discussions like this. Then I go off & do a bit of burrowing myself. There is an issue in the US. There is no getting around it. The numbers are clear. I wouldn't argue that it is just down to policing, but that has to be a factor.

Here's a comparison. According to the FBI there are about 400 'justifiable homicides' by police every year. That figure is low. Perhaps less than 50% the actual number (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/another-much-higher-count-of-police-homicides/) of people killed by police (reporting is not mandatory). In fact, the WSJ reckons there are another 550 per year (http://www.wsj.com/articles/hundreds-of-police-killings-are-uncounted-in-federal-statistics-1417577504) not counted in these stats. However, lets go with 400 per year. From 1989 to 2011 Australian police forces killed 105 people (that is not just 'justifiable' killings). That is 4.7 per year. America's population is about 14 times Australia's, so a comparable US figure would be 65. it is probably 10 times that or more.

However, it is worse than that. Australia actually has quite high numbers of police killings compared to places like Britain, Germany and others in Europe (let alone somewhere like Japan). Germany has a similar number of police killings per year as Australia with 4 times the population. Apparently in Canada, with a population a bit over 10% of America's, its about 12 a year.

In 2013 British police officers discharged their weapons 3 times:


Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons three times. The number of people fatally shot was zero. In 2012 the figure was just one. Even after adjusting for the smaller size of Britain’s population, British citizens are around 100 times less likely to be shot by a police officer than Americans. Between 2010 and 2014 the police force of one small American city, Albuquerque in New Mexico, shot and killed 23 civilians; seven times more than the number of Brits killed by all of England and Wales’s 43 forces during the same period

Armed police: Trigger happy | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/08/armed-police)

Now, I realise that the US is unique & has a set of circumstances that no one nation duplicates. So, America can't be expected to be exactly like everyone else. However, when the numbers of police killings per capita is likely 10-15 times that of a nation like Australia there are clearly issues that go beyond America's unique social circumstances. Some of that has to be to do with police training and/or tactics.

When there are high profile killings like Ferguson that produce protests there is often a lot of attention over the justification of the shooting & the character of the victim. This tends to get turned into a means to dismiss the protests - 'the kid was bad/the shoot was justified'. From my POV what that misses is that the protests are an expression of deeper anger at policing that isn't just about killings, but is about lower level brutality & humiliations that go unreported and largely unknown outside those communities until a bigger issue brings them to light. I have several African-American friends (a higher number than the average white American ironically ;) ), they each have stories of things that have happened to themselves or friends/family that would have many white Americans I know screaming to high heaven about their 'rights' (unnecessary car stops, harassment & even arrest for no reason). Yet for these folk it was a 'normal' part of life.

I'm sure that most police in America are good people trying to do the right thing and I'm sure that there are a few assholes too, but I stopped buying the 'bad apple' theory of police misconduct decades ago. Some things are the result of institutional problems & require institutional solutions. Unfortunately America's decentralized policing structure makes that incredibly difficult to do. You may have a good county police force, but the next county may not be as lucky.

Native
15 Feb 15,, 02:16
An Alabama police officer has been arrested after video emerged of him slamming an unarmed man to the ground after repeatedly trying to question him, law enforcement officials said.
Alabama Police Officer Arrested After Slamming Grandfather to Ground, Leaving Him Partially Paralyzed | KTLA (http://ktla.com/2015/02/14/alabama-police-officer-arrested-after-slamming-grandfather-to-ground-leaving-him-partially-paralyzed/)

zraver
15 Feb 15,, 02:21
I'm sure that most police in America are good people trying to do the right thing and I'm sure that there are a few assholes too

40% of police spouses report being abused. if you will abuse your spouse, you will abuse a civilian... 40% of all cops are dirty at a minimum. There there is whatever percentage don't beat their spouses but engage in other criminal conduct- theft, rape, assault.... Add in the huge number of cops, the fact that we have so many laws that just about anyone can be charged at any time and to top it off, massive surveillance and that any violation of any statue can be an arrestable offense and what you get is a police state to make Stalin drool.

Monash
15 Feb 15,, 04:09
I am intrigued by how international posters who are making judgements on the LEA in the US based on...what?

Do you know or have you lived here?

Or is it all what you read and see in the media?

There are over 18,000 police agencies in the US split between federal, state and local with approxiamtely 450,000 sworn officers.

Over half of those officers serve in small rural departments with 12 officers or less.

There are no rigid set of standards for police officers nationwide....and I doubt we Americans would ever agree to a national police force. So the are are a myriad of convaluted issues which stand in the way of a single force.

And unlike many companies, the US military is expressly forbidden to take part in law enforcement other than under extremely rare circumstances.

All of the said, the vast majority of police officers in my country are concientious, hard working men and women who truly do try to protect and serve. They have to serve in incredibly stressful environments requiring split second decisions which could result in a life lost...theirs, a citizen's or a criminals. In almost all cases they make the right call.

Albany, my comments at least were based partly on media reporting, partly in contact (formal and informal) with US LEA and partly on my own experience as an Australian based LEO. With regards to your post - I agree that such thing as a "National" Police Force would be legally and politically impractical. When you note however that "There are no rigid set of standards for police officers nationwide" you raise an important point. National or even State wide Police forces may not be practical but there is not reason why the same should apply to recruitment and training standards. Other professions have 'national standards' for training and recruitment and on paper at least, there is no be the same reason why Policing should not be the same. This may, repeat may, be one of the issues effecting Policing in the US. As you noted 18000 agencies mean potentially 18,000 different recruiting and training systems. I am fully aware this is not the case in practice but I'm sure you get the point I am trying to make.

Finally, for what it's worth I agree with other aspects of your post and have myself in the past argued against some of the more judgmental opinions that are expressed from time to time whenever Police shooting incidents are posted on WAB. Eagle eye hindsight and armchair expertise is a pain in the ass for all professions.

citanon
15 Feb 15,, 05:56
My last four police encounters in the us:

1. accident in which I was rear ended at a stop light. Officers were perfectly professional.
2 and 3. Stopped by chp late at night when they thought I was dozing off. Officers nice and helpful even though I was tired and grumpy, left aftr making sure I was properly wake (which was very helpful).
4. Accidentally ran a red light attending a conference in sf. Motorcycle officer launched into a rant about idiot convention goers, I was sheepishly apologetic. Guy left without giving a ticket or even getting off his bike.

I'm guessing most encounters between police officers and law abiding citizens end like this. The trouble comes when you have the rogue officet or rogue department. Then the citizen could have lots of trouble clearing his name or getting redress. That's why transpaency is essential. Body cams and cruiser cams enhance transparency and police work. No excuse not to use them.

Bigfella
15 Feb 15,, 08:48
My last four police encounters in the us:

1. accident in which I was rear ended at a stop light. Officers were perfectly professional.
2 and 3. Stopped by chp late at night when they thought I was dozing off. Officers nice and helpful even though I was tired and grumpy, left aftr making sure I was properly wake (which was very helpful).
4. Accidentally ran a red light attending a conference in sf. Motorcycle officer launched into a rant about idiot convention goers, I was sheepishly apologetic. Guy left without giving a ticket or even getting off his bike.

I'm guessing most encounters between police officers and law abiding citizens end like this. The trouble comes when you have the rogue officet or rogue department. Then the citizen could have lots of trouble clearing his name or getting redress. That's why transpaency is essential. Body cams and cruiser cams enhance transparency and police work. No excuse not to use them.

Can I suggest another category. Police often deal with people who are difficult. Some may be petty criminals, others may be agitated or stupid or drug affected or mentally ill. Not 'average citizens in normal circumstances'. Sometimes ordinary people may become difficult if they feel police are treating them unfairly, even if the police see it as reasonable. I'm not just talking US now, its everywhere. This is where training, culture & institutional attitudes are crucial because this is where escalation can have bad or even tragic consequences. This is where training to de-escalate and a culture that encourages that are crucial. I don't think its as simple as 'rogue' elements. They are an issue, but only one.

If police in Britain only fired their guns 3 times in a 12 month period that speaks to a particular police culture. One of the things it means is that British police don't shoot the mentally ill at anywhere near the rate we do in Australia or you do in the US. That alone is something I wish we could find a way to replicate, as we lost mentally ill person last week to police gunfire. I wouldn't suggest that culture can be transferred wholesale to the US or that it should be, but there must be lessons, even for the 'good' departments.

Double Edge
15 Feb 15,, 19:45
USA has to improve its piss poor policing record, (to all who will say back to me what about India, India has real funding and training issues), as a nation made out of money, USA should have no such excuse, this is just ignorance, bigotry.
That's just it, Z was making this point some time back. They do have funding issues.

Since they have five times more cops those cops got to go out and make themselves count.

Result ? people feel the cops are out to get them. One little infraction and you get busted. A little too over zealous.

so its the opposite result of there never is a cop when you need one.

kuku
16 Feb 15,, 04:45
That's just it, Z was making this point some time back. They do have funding issues.

Since they have five times more cops those cops got to go out and make themselves count.

Result ? people feel the cops are out to get them. One little infraction and you get busted. A little too over zealous.

so its the opposite result of there never is a cop when you need one.
Unarmed men running away being shot to death.
old and frail men being slammed hard to the ground.
People with mental ilesness being chocked to death.

over policing my ass, this is bigotry racism.

Officer of Engineers
16 Feb 15,, 05:03
over policing my ass, this is bigotry racism.They do it to white homeless as well. This is god complex. Far worst than racism.

Double Edge
16 Feb 15,, 12:22
Unarmed men running away being shot to death.
old and frail men being slammed hard to the ground.
People with mental ilesness being chocked to death.

over policing my ass, this is bigotry racism.
I don't see it as racism, but over aggressive policing. Did he ever pose a threat to their safety. The guy couldn't even speak their language. In an area that i have to think does not have too much crime. So why this deal.

Amadou Diallo would fit your charge better. Look him up. Or people getting shot by accident. By like eleven cops at the same time. What is that.

Males between the ages of 18-35. frisked and searched. why ? most likely age group to commit crime. aka profiling. white no bar. And this is in England.

If i were to compare american cops with others. there's too many of them in the US is my first impression. All over the place. NYC literally crawling with them. City has a a good budget, hires more cops. City is bankrupt, fewer cops.

One thing i learnt on this board (7thsnipe i think it was). never argue with a cop. they're just doing their job. does not matter which country. Cop is a cop. Cop giving you hassle. Put up with it. If you get taken in, then you can do your fighting with legal muscle.

Worst place to be if your a child molester, rapist or cop ? prison! Cop has to be top of the list.

tuna
16 Feb 15,, 14:05
Agreed, and the professional rabble rousers don't want it to change. That's why they marginalize the issue by implying it is racism, instead of a larger issue that affects the whole rainbow of colors, creeds, orientation, etc.

Double Edge
16 Feb 15,, 14:57
Dare i say you need 'poh-lice reform' :biggrin:

Another buzzword we keep hearing in India that never happens.

Why ? Cops are not a profit centre. They are a cost centre.

It takes resources to 'protect & serve'.

Yours is a case of protecting those sources of funding. mine is a never ending struggle to find more.

kuku
16 Feb 15,, 15:58
I don't see it as racism, but over aggressive policing. Did he ever pose a threat to their safety. The guy couldn't even speak their language. In an area that i have to think does not have too much crime. So why this deal.
Amadou Diallo would fit your charge better. Look him up. Or people getting shot by accident. By like eleven cops at the same time. What is that.

Males between the ages of 18-35. frisked and searched. why ? most likely age group to commit crime. aka profiling. white no bar. And this is in England.

If i were to compare american cops with others. there's too many of them in the US is my first impression. All over the place. NYC literally crawling with them. City has a a good budget, hires more cops. City is bankrupt, fewer cops.

One thing i learnt on this board (7thsnipe i think it was). never argue with a cop. they're just doing their job. does not matter which country. Cop is a cop. Cop giving you hassle. Put up with it. If you get taken in, then you can do your fighting with legal muscle.

Worst place to be if your a child molester, rapist or cop ? prison! Cop has to be top of the list.
There is a police per 100,000 of population ratio, i think that makes over policing or under policing very apparent.
If all nations with a high ratio face the same problems, i would understand.

As for police reforms in India, there was a study of police on TV, they came out with very great observations, like electricity bills of police stations pending all over, pending phone bills, police forcing people to purchase petrol/diesel for their patrolling bikes and cars, none of the weapons in the police station in a working condition, etc. etc.

Double Edge
16 Feb 15,, 17:31
There is a police per 100,000 of population ratio, i think that makes over policing or under policing very apparent.
Its a rough metric.


If all nations with a high ratio face the same problems, i would understand.
There is no understanding in this case. yesterday it was this grandfather, who will it be next time. Many more locals than foreigners so chances are good it will be a local. White people won't make the news. They must have deserved it :rolleyes:

Oracle
16 Feb 15,, 18:37
I don't see it as racism, but over aggressive policing. Did he ever pose a threat to their safety. The guy couldn't even speak their language. In an area that i have to think does not have too much crime. So why this deal.

Amadou Diallo would fit your charge better. Look him up. Or people getting shot by accident. By like eleven cops at the same time. What is that.

Males between the ages of 18-35. frisked and searched. why ? most likely age group to commit crime. aka profiling. white no bar. And this is in England.

If i were to compare american cops with others. there's too many of them in the US is my first impression. All over the place. NYC literally crawling with them. City has a a good budget, hires more cops. City is bankrupt, fewer cops.

One thing i learnt on this board (7thsnipe i think it was). never argue with a cop. they're just doing their job. does not matter which country. Cop is a cop. Cop giving you hassle. Put up with it. If you get taken in, then you can do your fighting with legal muscle.

Worst place to be if your a child molester, rapist or cop ? prison! Cop has to be top of the list.

Data Mining. Makes me wonder how efficiently big data is adopted worldwide.

Kuku, this incident was not racist.

Oracle
16 Feb 15,, 18:41
There is a police per 100,000 of population ratio, i think that makes over policing or under policing very apparent.
If all nations with a high ratio face the same problems, i would understand.

As for police reforms in India, there was a study of police on TV, they came out with very great observations, like electricity bills of police stations pending all over, pending phone bills, police forcing people to purchase petrol/diesel for their patrolling bikes and cars, none of the weapons in the police station in a working condition, etc. etc.

If one has to dig - racist crimes in India would top. Are there any stats of how many NE guys attacked in Delhi is racist? How many policemen refuse to file an FIR for a crime committed? Why North India is such a hellhole? In the end, it all boils down to effective policing and policies.

anil
16 Feb 15,, 19:33
Are there any stats of how many NE guys attacked in Delhi is racist?
Are you stupid?

The NE racism issue has become like the case of the boy who cried wolf. It has been over done. You can pull a 30min sensational show out of your ass for higher TV ratings but not statistics. NDTVs nitin gokhale tries to put it very subtly

NORTHEAST MONOLOGUES: What according to you would be the major challenges for the Northeast in the next decade?

Nitin Gokhale: The biggest challenge the North East faces, in my personal view, is to overcome "We are the victims" mindset that dominates the public discourse in the region.

anil
16 Feb 15,, 19:37
Back to topic,

This cop had no idea that he was going to became a national headline. Idiot.

kuku
16 Feb 15,, 20:12
Its a rough metric.
There is no understanding in this case. yesterday it was this grandfather, who will it be next time. Many more locals than foreigners so chances are good it will be a local. White people won't make the news. They must have deserved it :rolleyes:

Kuku, this incident was not racist.
Its not a rough matrix, or a complex one.

This is racist, a cop slamming an old guy who is not a threat to anyone does not happen as a norm, a person who is that idiotic should not be in any professional police force, you guys are not looking at it for what it is for some crazy ass reason i do not understand.

You present a crazy police force that is slamming old guys to the ground and breaking their spine, shooting unarmed people on the streets like a dog, chocking to death mental patients who can not be coherent at any time, and this is happening in a developed nation, what a bunch of morons, people in the USA should address this, its just stupid.

kuku
16 Feb 15,, 20:31
If one has to dig - racist crimes in India would top. Are there any stats of how many NE guys attacked in Delhi is racist? How many policemen refuse to file an FIR for a crime committed? Why North India is such a hellhole? In the end, it all boils down to effective policing and policies.
NE guys are attached in Delhi, yes, because of racism!!!, you can increase the amount of police tomorrow to 50 times, it will still keep happening, people remain ignorant, the police you increase 50 times will also be racist, because you draw them from the same pool.
This is a human problem present in all nations accept it, address it, about time.

North, East, West, South, India in all directions resembles a hell hole, with water available 2-3 hours a day, poorest solid waste management in the world, poorest health standards in the world, poorest sewage management in the world, and as a result most of India in all directions smells like shit 24*7, with mosquitoes flying around in hordes spreading all sorts of diseases (unless its too hot or too cold for them to survive), if the mosquitoes done get you with the poorest police to people ratio a criminal will (as soon as they get the chance), but that will only happen if you survive the worst management and most intense traffic in the world..... its crazy really, but we are trying to improve it one day at a time.

It is because of a lot of things which can all be eventually be traced down to "too many problems, not enough money, and too much corruption", the solution lies in "reducing population, increasing GDP, and reducing corruption". And no matter what we do, if we keep fucking so many new mouths into existence, nothing can help us.

A person with somewhat mongloid features is called a bahadur, nepadi, gurkha, chinki, and made fun of all across India (in places with out a permanent large population with mongloid features), including the Southern States.
That is the stupid way it is, and its not acceptable, we should start to improve it all cross the globes....

TopHatter
16 Feb 15,, 22:58
North, East, West, South, India in all directions resembles a hell hole, with water available 2-3 hours a day, poorest solid waste management in the world, poorest health standards in the world, poorest sewage management in the world, and as a result most of India in all directions smells like shit 24*7, with mosquitoes flying around in hordes spreading all sorts of diseases (unless its too hot or too cold for them to survive), if the mosquitoes done get you with the poorest police to people ratio a criminal will (as soon as they get the chance), but that will only happen if you survive the worst management and most intense traffic in the world..... its crazy really, but we are trying to improve it one day at a time.

I'll admit that I've never been to India, but isn't that a little harsh? :frown:

gunnut
17 Feb 15,, 00:20
My last four police encounters in the us:

1. accident in which I was rear ended at a stop light. Officers were perfectly professional.
2 and 3. Stopped by chp late at night when they thought I was dozing off. Officers nice and helpful even though I was tired and grumpy, left aftr making sure I was properly wake (which was very helpful).
4. Accidentally ran a red light attending a conference in sf. Motorcycle officer launched into a rant about idiot convention goers, I was sheepishly apologetic. Guy left without giving a ticket or even getting off his bike.

Man...that "white privilege" comes in handy :tongue:

I'm just yanking your chain. Are you white? I forgot. :biggrin:



I'm guessing most encounters between police officers and law abiding citizens end like this. The trouble comes when you have the rogue officet or rogue department. Then the citizen could have lots of trouble clearing his name or getting redress. That's why transpaency is essential. Body cams and cruiser cams enhance transparency and police work. No excuse not to use them.

Most encounters are non-stories. There's nothing to report if nothing out of the ordinary happened. No one wants to see a cop talking to a guy and then both leave the scene peacefully. That makes a hell of a boring news headline:

Cop converses with a member of the public. NOTHING HAPPENED! We'll bring you the full story after these messages.

I don't know about you but I'm flipping channel to the re-run of Sharknado 2.

Well...My TV would be on Sharknado 2 already...but still....

bolo121
17 Feb 15,, 00:57
I'll admit that I've never been to India, but isn't that a little harsh? :frown:

Nope its pretty much true. Take for example Bangalore which has much more tax revenue compares to most places. Just type Bangalore Garbage Crisis into google.
The scumbag politicians encroached and stole all of the planned landfill sites. So now only one single place is left. Here also there is no proper waste management.
The people near it suffer dreadfully from polluted water, air and everything else.

In the same way there is a huge water shortage problem. Even in my relatively ok middle class area we are lucky to get Cauvery water (pumped supply of river water) for 2 or 3 hours. Most places have permanently dry pipes.
There is huge wastage from leaky pipes and rampant unchecked theft.
Groundwater is near totally depleted thanks to uncounted thousands of illegal borewells. Some of the richest most powerful people in the city are the water mafia who control private tanker trucks that people are obliged to buy water from.
Add to this water contamination and pollution. Here is an old article from 2013, god knows how bad it is now.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/bengaluru/Toxic-groundwater-threatens-lives-of-Bangaloreans/2013/05/27/article1607801.ece

None of the scum in the government give a shit.

Gun Grape
17 Feb 15,, 01:18
As AR stated, the majority of cops in the US are great guys.

But law enforcement is no different than any other organization. All have, what we in the Corps refer to as that 10%. That small group of people that cause 90% of the problems.

This article seems to back that up

5 percent of arresting NYPD officers make 40 percent of all resisting arrest charges (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/06/1349810/-5-of-New-York-City-cops-make-40-of-all-resisting-arrest-charges)


A shocking 72 percent of all resisting arrest charges are brought by only 15 percent of the NYPD. Resisting arrest is a charge that is often used to cover the use of excessive force by police. Why else would Darvell Elliot have wound up in a hospital bed after he had been handcuffed by Officer Donald Sadowy outside of Elliot's Brownsville home? In a case of mistaken identity (all black men look the same to some police officers) the police stopped him because a black man had stolen an iPod and cellphone in the area. He claims that once they handcuffed him, they tripped him and beat him. The picture his lawyer provided WNYC appears to back up his complaint.
The NYPD has used computer software for years to track crime in its jurisdiction. But apparently it hasn't taken advantage of data to deal with abusive cops. According to WNYC, one officer, Donald Sadowy, has been sued for excessive force 10 times in just over two years.

Historically, the department has done more to crack down on corrupt cops than abusive ones, said Robert Kane, director of the criminology and justice studies program at Drexel University, who spent several years studying officer misconduct in the NYPD.
He says cops like Sadowy are on the street because the NYPD wants them there.

“I would only expect that officer to be taken off the street if the organization didn’t value the aggressive behavior in which that officer typically engages,” Kane said.

Why do 60 percent of police officers never need to make the charge? Could it be that the NYPD relies on shock troop officers to provide the threat that makes most citizens compliant? If not, why does the NYPD allow them to remain on the street?
As Darvell Elliot put it:

“He thinks we’re the danger. But you’re the danger. You’re supposed to protect and serve us,” Elliott said a year later. “We’re not supposed to be scared of you. We’re supposed to be safe around you.”

39204

Double Edge
17 Feb 15,, 01:18
My last four police encounters in the us:

1. accident in which I was rear ended at a stop light. Officers were perfectly professional.
2 and 3. Stopped by chp late at night when they thought I was dozing off. Officers nice and helpful even though I was tired and grumpy, left aftr making sure I was properly wake (which was very helpful).
4. Accidentally ran a red light attending a conference in sf. Motorcycle officer launched into a rant about idiot convention goers, I was sheepishly apologetic. Guy left without giving a ticket or even getting off his bike.

I'm guessing most encounters between police officers and law abiding citizens end like this.
As for my experiences in the US yeah.

i remember once staggering out of the train and walking home. I was hammerd and couldn't even walk straight. There's this cop car following me slowly behind. They figure they will nab me if i get into my car. This went on for about 300 yards. I then noticed them and smiled and told them i lived nearby and had no car. Incidentally, if you are in such a state and make it to your car. You are expected to make sure you cant get to your car keys otherwise they can do you from drunk driving if your keys are accessible. Throw your keys in the bushes or in the boot and retrieve them when you sober up. They can't charge you.

A friend of mine was driving back in NJ. A bt high after a party. Sees a red light and stops at the intersection. Only thing is he missed the red light and stops on the other side, as in just after the intersection. Cop shows up, friend insists he stopped at the red light. Cops smiles asks him where he lives and turns out its just up the street. Cops lets him go and tells him not to drink and drive again.


The trouble comes when you have the rogue officet or rogue department. Then the citizen could have lots of trouble clearing his name or getting redress. That's why transpaency is essential. Body cams and cruiser cams enhance transparency and police work. No excuse not to use them.
yep, and one guy can mess it up for everybody. It happens.

Gun Grape
17 Feb 15,, 01:31
40% of police spouses report being abused. if you will abuse your spouse, you will abuse a civilian... 40% of all cops are dirty at a minimum. There there is whatever percentage don't beat their spouses but engage in other criminal conduct- theft, rape, assault.... Add in the huge number of cops, the fact that we have so many laws that just about anyone can be charged at any time and to top it off, massive surveillance and that any violation of any statue can be an arrestable offense and what you get is a police state to make Stalin drool.

To be fair, both of the studies I found that say that were from 1992. At the same time spouse abuse nationwide was 34%.

I doubt it is as high now. Spouse abuse went way down after 1994. Especially since anyone convicted of spouse abuse loses their gun rights. That kicked lots of people out of the military, I'm sure it did the same for LE

TopHatter
17 Feb 15,, 01:47
Cop converses with a member of the public. NOTHING HAPPENED!
That's been 100% of my encounters with the police.

I had one cop try to provoke me just a little into backtalking him. Instead, I "killed him with kindness" and wound up having him forget about 1 of the 2 tickets he was going to give me.

Another time, a cop pulled me and another driver over at the exact same time, for the exact same offense.
The other driver was a 60ish white guy driving a Cadillac. I won't bore you with the details but the old guy's bad attitude and my positive attitude resulted in one of us getting a ticket and the other getting off with a warning.

Yet another time I was driving through South Carolina on my way back home in another state. I was speeding and got pulled over by a thoroughly "good ol boy" looking local cop. I knew I was looking at a guaranteed ticket, but also figured there was even odds that he'd shake me down for everything he could simply because I lived out-of-state. I was my usual politely cooperative and respectful citizen and drove away with yet another warning.



Nope its pretty much true.

Wow...I can't imagine living in that kind of viscous circle. :frown:

zraver
17 Feb 15,, 04:01
To be fair, both of the studies I found that say that were from 1992. At the same time spouse abuse nationwide was 34%.

I doubt it is as high now. Spouse abuse went way down after 1994. Especially since anyone convicted of spouse abuse loses their gun rights. That kicked lots of people out of the military, I'm sure it did the same for LE

I'm not so sure 1. cops don't investigate cops, 2. romantic partners know the cops know where the shelters are and no the cops will side with the abuser. Sexual misconduct allegations are still the second most common complaint leveled by citizens against cops so misogyny seems to be alive and well.

TopHatter
17 Feb 15,, 04:21
1. cops don't investigate cops

Uh, Internal Affairs? :confused:

erik
17 Feb 15,, 06:27
I'm not so sure 1. cops don't investigate cops, 2. romantic partners know the cops know where the shelters are and no the cops will side with the abuser. Sexual misconduct allegations are still the second most common complaint leveled by citizens against cops so misogyny seems to be alive and well.

As it was mentioned above, there's Internal Affairs and then there investigations conducted by other agencies such as the Feds or the State police. Cops do investigate cops and not just for serious issues. Issues such as traffic crashes involving a police vehicle and use of any type of force and much more.

I'm confused by the post... are you trying to say that the police side with the abuser in a domestic violence situation?

You are correct in that sexual misconduct complaints are are not uncommon (not sure what data you pulled to get the 2nd highest, I haven't looked into it myself). However, the key word is "Allegations." I am not saying they do not happen, because obviously they do (Law Enforcement isn't the only profession where this is true). However, there are countless false allegations that are proven wrong. There are many actions taken to make sure you have evidence to prove an allegation false.

antimony
17 Feb 15,, 06:44
I'll admit that I've never been to India, but isn't that a little harsh? :frown:

It is the harsh truth from the POV of someone who wants India to rapidly improve. I am in that camp, any pace of progress is not enough and we need to push harder just to reach decent international standards.

But if you do visit, you should be fairly comfortable as long as you are on a first world budget. Just avoid the urges to "do as the natives do" and stick to the larger cities with their malls, places to visit and stuff.

If you do indeed want to be uncomfortable, then, well...

Bigfella
17 Feb 15,, 08:46
It is the harsh truth from the POV of someone who wants India to rapidly improve. I am in that camp, any pace of progress is not enough and we need to push harder just to reach decent international standards.

But if you do visit, you should be fairly comfortable as long as you are on a first world budget. Just avoid the urges to "do as the natives do" and stick to the larger cities with their malls, places to visit and stuff.

If you do indeed want to be uncomfortable, then, well...

Never did understand 'poverty tourism'. In some ways I almost find it almost insulting - 'look how good I am pretending to be poor for a few days'. Move in for 6 months or a year & you get respect. I get the value in understanding that some people live difficult & different lives, but I'm happy to gain that understanding by observation rather than participation. I'm very fond of floors, decent roofs, plumbing & electricity. Not at all fond biting parasites or food poisoning.

Love to visit India one day, but I won't be getting the 'whole experience'.

lemontree
17 Feb 15,, 09:18
I wanted to put a thread on Obama's stupid comment about "Tolerance and Gandhi" even after he received overwhelming welcome in India but then abstained.He did a very ungrateful and immature thing to bring "Gandhi" into the picture and destroy his own recently elevated reputation.Highly Hypocritical.

Sorry I got in a bit late. Obama's comments were apt, and in fact his comments and the drubbing the BJP got in the elections is what seems to have prompted the RSS to shut the VHP from making communal rants and Modi personally ordered the Delhi Police Commissioner to act after the 6th attack of church property within 2-3 months.

We don't want to be chided by an outsider, but we will continue to prosecute minorities!!

The victim in this case will get complete justice from US law and civil society, but will similar justice be available to anyone of us here in India?

Two stupid cops don't represent the US, just as the rabid right wingers don't represent India's Hindus.

lemontree
17 Feb 15,, 09:29
Are you stupid?

The NE racism issue has become like the case of the boy who cried wolf. It has been over done. You can pull a 30min sensational show out of your ass for higher TV ratings but not statistics. NDTVs nitin gokhale tries to put it very subtly

No sir...you are being stupid.
You seem to know nothing of what the North easterners go through in Delhi.

anil
17 Feb 15,, 10:52
No sir...you are being stupid.
You seem to know nothing of what the North easterners go through in Delhi.
Perhaps I AM stupid for using common sense.

Ever heard of a nepali in india being beaten up because he looked mongoloid? The irony is that it only and always seems to happen to NE people outside NE. What do make of this claim? wink http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/darksmiles/wink.gif

bolo121
17 Feb 15,, 13:39
Perhaps I AM stupid for using common sense.

Ever heard of a nepali in india being beaten up because he looked mongoloid? The irony is that it only and always seems to happen to NE people outside NE. What do make of this claim? wink http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/darksmiles/wink.gif

I don't think its a case of crying wolf. There are many NE students and workers in Bangalore especially in the restaurant trade. I have seen the way people behave towards them.

Double Edge
17 Feb 15,, 13:45
NORTHEAST MONOLOGUES: What according to you would be the major challenges for the Northeast in the next decade?

Nitin Gokhale: The biggest challenge the North East faces, in my personal view, is to overcome "We are the victims" mindset that dominates the public discourse in the region.
Agree, how much more empowered they stand to become by not allowing any of this to upset them.

as for major challenge for NE, i want transit through Bangladesh. Everything else will work it self out after :)

Double Edge
17 Feb 15,, 13:58
in fact his comments and the drubbing the BJP got in the elections is what seems to have prompted the RSS to shut the VHP from making communal rants and
You asked some time back whether the zealots can be contained.

What i'm unsure about is whether they can pin the blame on them as yet or not. the media alludes to it. But i've always seen these characters as self-appointed unelected guardians of the faith with dubious legitimacy. Blowhards that want to hog the limelight to increase their credibility. There have always been limits to that.

because of you we lost is something i'm waiting for better researched & argued commentary to confirm.

if so then Modi can push back against radical sangh parivar members. In any case he has done this in the past in Gujurat so no surprises there.


Modi personally ordered the Delhi Police Commissioner to act after the 6th attack of church property within 2-3 months.
here (http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/pm-modi-breaks-silence-on-church-attacks-says-govt-committed-to-religious-freedom/)


“My government will ensure that there is complete freedom of faith and that everyone has the undeniable right to retain or adopt the religion of his or her choice without coercion or undue influence. My government will not allow any religious group, belonging to the majority or the minority, to incite hatred against others, overtly or covertly. Mine will be a government that gives equal respect to all religions,” he said at a function in New Delhi.


In a stern warning to fringe elements, he said, “We cannot accept violence against any religion on any pretext and I strongly condemn such violence. My government will act strongly in this regard.”

But at the same time lets keep things in perspective too.

In report on church attacks, Bassi told Centre: Theft in 206 temples last year (http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/in-report-on-church-attacks-bassi-told-centre-theft-in-206-temples-last-year/)
Are thefts & vandalism being called attacks ? Few years back in the case of the 500 odd churches 'attacked' in my state i found a lot of it.

Just one was gutted in Delhi and the cops say they have not been able to solve it. Guess that church is going to get a do over and look better than before :)


Bassi presented the data at a meeting with Home Ministry officials after he was summoned by Prime Minister Narendra Modi. According to the data, 206 temples, 30 gurdwaras, 14 mosques and three churches were burgled in 2014.
How burgularies on temples spiked seven fold and mosques twice further in the space of two years is curious.


The victim in this case will get complete justice from US law and civil society, but will similar justice be available to anyone of us here in India?
They got that by fighting for it and funding it. We can do the first part not so sure about the second.

anil
17 Feb 15,, 14:24
I don't think its a case of crying wolf. There are many NE students and workers in Bangalore especially in the restaurant trade. I have seen the way people behave towards them.
The case has similarities to the situation in mumbai. Here, the marathi culture(people) find the hindi culture(people) as "repulsive". However, physical confrontation or acts of violence between these two culture groups are few and hardly ever makes it to headlines.

We're of topic again

kuku
17 Feb 15,, 15:13
I'll admit that I've never been to India, but isn't that a little harsh? :frown:
Its from a guy from the wastewater solid waste treatment sector that travels a lot across india.

Is it harsh, yes it is, however from my eyes it is what it is. I paid 200 thousand USD for a home in delhi and the municipality built a open sewer drain 300 meters away, don't get me started with the rest of it.

It's bad and we are trying to fix things, I am from a field working for a better india, and we are a democracy, one cannot fix problems by shifting entire masses or moving mountains, things are done slowly here. And I mean slower than a snail. A city starting a project to supply 24*7 water actually resulted in a half year long crippling protest. This will take time.

Bigotry of police forces and of people is something I have seen around me quite often and some thing i know when i see it, I expect better from more successful democracies, a better example for everyone. Sadly NEWS coming out of US is generally negative (given that good news don't sell) which creates a very negative perception, and the perception is they should improve things.

Double Edge
17 Feb 15,, 15:52
Sadly NEWS coming out of US is generally negative (given that good news don't sell) which creates a very negative perception, and the perception is they should improve things.
Z does not have anything to sell, works with cops and see his views about them. Its not so different to attitudes people have to cops in India. Anecdotal but its given an idea of perceptions.

You have these league tables and then you have these surveys conducted which have a gap and it seems even in the developed countries they still have issues. I've seen similar with discussions about other countries and you think wait a minute this happens where i live how is it happening where you live :)

zraver
17 Feb 15,, 16:36
Z does not have anything to sell, works with cops and see his views about them. Its not so different to attitudes people have to cops in India. Anecdotal but its given an idea of perceptions.

You have these league tables and then you have these surveys conducted which have a gap and it seems even in the developed countries they still have issues. I've seen similar with discussions about other countries and you think wait a minute this happens where i live how is it happening where you live :)

I am selling one thing- a belief in personal liberty and property rights. A massive all seeing police state whose enforcers are above the law is not a free society where liberty and property can flourish.

kuku
17 Feb 15,, 17:10
Never did understand 'poverty tourism'. In some ways I almost find it almost insulting - 'look how good I am pretending to be poor for a few days'. Move in for 6 months or a year & you get respect. I get the value in understanding that some people live difficult & different lives, but I'm happy to gain that understanding by observation rather than participation. I'm very fond of floors, decent roofs, plumbing & electricity. Not at all fond biting parasites or food poisoning.

Love to visit India one day, but I won't be getting the 'whole experience'.
It’s a beautiful place, just stay clear of the cities and everything modern (malls, the metropolitans and shit).

If you want to come travel the backwaters for a couple of days on a houseboat with a cook and full service and everything for less than 200 aus dollar everything included.
If you want to travel on a bike across the great Himalayas, or across the great south.
If you want to experience something ancient.
if you want to live like a king (a real king) for less than 100 aus dollar perday (everything included)

If you want to see a modern city, go to Sydney or something.


We're of topic again
Welcome to internet

Oracle
17 Feb 15,, 17:27
For all the claims that some of my countrymen made here - Not all Nepalis who work in Bangalore or Mumbai or any other city is an Indian. NE do have Nepalis, but very small in terms of percentage/population. I understand that this is the internet and, well we dish out statements based upon what we read. Believe me, most Nepalis are from Nepal, not NE. They say they are from Darjeeling or Assam, but this is not true. Other ethnic groups from the NE? Yes. But is it fair that some of you guys who have never visited the NE, judge things based upon look and feel. Anil is a racist, I know that. His first argument with me here in WAB was 'why did the tribals go up the hill and how can we bring them back'. But DE, you too. It's a pity we engaged in a lot of good discussions.

kuku
17 Feb 15,, 17:28
Z does not have anything to sell, works with cops and see his views about them. Its not so different to attitudes people have to cops in India. Anecdotal but its given an idea of perceptions.

You have these league tables and then you have these surveys conducted which have a gap and it seems even in the developed countries they still have issues. I've seen similar with discussions about other countries and you think wait a minute this happens where i live how is it happening where you live :)
its clearly a racism incident, the only reason a nice old man was slammed to the ground was because of the colour of his skin not the tone of his voice.
I agree there may be a larger police problem, but that aside, this particular incident was racism....

kuku
17 Feb 15,, 17:33
Every man with mongloid features is called a nepali, gurkha, chinki, bahadur in India. I know i am.Its done as a derogatory statement.
And i am sad for them, for the blood the Nepalis have spent for India, they should be saluted all the time.

Oracle
17 Feb 15,, 17:33
Are you stupid?

The NE racism issue has become like the case of the boy who cried wolf. It has been over done. You can pull a 30min sensational show out of your ass for higher TV ratings but not statistics. NDTVs nitin gokhale tries to put it very subtly

anil
Contributor

20 Sep 12
Location
Mumbai
Posts
510

Not a single worthy post. What happened? Some sleek chick from the NE gutted you? :biggrin:

antimony
17 Feb 15,, 17:48
Every man with mongloid features is called a nepali, gurkha, chinki, bahadur in India. I know i am.Its done as a derogatory statement.
And i am sad for them, for the blood the Nepalis have spent for India, they should be saluted all the time.

Given the hots Anil has for goons like the Shiv Sena, who thrive on regional bigotry, I don't think he will ever understand something like this

TopHatter
17 Feb 15,, 18:47
Let's keep it on topic guys :)

Double Edge
17 Feb 15,, 19:26
I am selling one thing- a belief in personal liberty and property rights. A massive all seeing police state whose enforcers are above the law is not a free society where liberty and property can flourish.
Right, this is what people will be saying if we increase cops in my country.

Too few not good, too much = police state.

Double Edge
17 Feb 15,, 19:37
Anil is a racist, I know that. His first argument with me here in WAB was 'why did the tribals go up the hill and how can we bring them back'. But DE, you too. It's a pity we engaged in a lot of good discussions.
I know everything you're referring to. When i lived in england, some sections there do not consider there is such a country as India. We are all from Pakistan. I've had loads of abuse. Also from arabs when i grew up in the ME. Like you i kept myself in this 'racism' prison. It was many years later that i broke out of it. Few members here helped with that. Wish i met them earlier would have saved lots of unnecessary stress.

You get abuse on the street, its a dog barking, should have the same effect, does not stop you going about your business.

Try it, now you got an invisble force shield. You don't get insulted. You are coherent and ready in case things go beyond. fight or flight. You dont even have to fight, just deflect or use repartee, most times it does not go beyond. Same thing with those cartoons. can't control what people say, but you have full control of what you perceive.

Real racism is rare. There is no deep seated hatred of people from the NE in India. Its mostly harassment. There are a few cases where it goes beyond but they are rare. Don't fall for the victim complex. it sucks and makes you feel helpless. Bad place to be.

The irony of this thread is if it was a not an Indian guy that got attacked there would not even be a thread. This is an issue for the people who live in the town where this occured. I'd be anxious if i lived there regardless of what colour i was. What goes around comes around.

A lot of people would endorse what anil said. Are we all racists now. Maybe you should examine how you define racism. Keep the bar high and you will be fine, the r word should be the last thing on your mind not the first, better still to not use it :)

Hint: if he advocated violence against people from a certain area, you'd be on stronger ground. Did he ? no.

TopHatter
17 Feb 15,, 20:09
A lot of people would endorse what anil said. Are we all racists now. Maybe you should examine how you define racism. Keep the bar high and you will be fine, the r word should be the last thing on your mind not the first, better still to not use it :)

I second this. Accusing another WAB member of racism is very incautious step to take.

Double Edge
17 Feb 15,, 20:14
Such is the tyranny of hurt sentiment.

citanon
17 Feb 15,, 21:04
Man...that "white privilege" comes in handy :tongue:

I'm just yanking your chain. Are you white? I forgot. :biggrin:

I'm Chinese.


Can I suggest another category. Police often deal with people who are difficult. Some may be petty criminals, others may be agitated or stupid or drug affected or mentally ill. Not 'average citizens in normal circumstances'. Sometimes ordinary people may become difficult if they feel police are treating them unfairly, even if the police see it as reasonable. I'm not just talking US now, its everywhere. This is where training, culture & institutional attitudes are crucial because this is where escalation can have bad or even tragic consequences. This is where training to de-escalate and a culture that encourages that are crucial. I don't think its as simple as 'rogue' elements. They are an issue, but only one.

If police in Britain only fired their guns 3 times in a 12 month period that speaks to a particular police culture. One of the things it means is that British police don't shoot the mentally ill at anywhere near the rate we do in Australia or you do in the US. That alone is something I wish we could find a way to replicate, as we lost mentally ill person last week to police gunfire. I wouldn't suggest that culture can be transferred wholesale to the US or that it should be, but there must be lessons, even for the 'good' departments.

That's the other huge elephant in the room. When should police escalate and when should they de-escalate? I think we are off-kilter in many parts of the US, but I don't think British police has it right either.

Double Edge
17 Feb 15,, 22:03
Can I suggest another category. Police often deal with people who are difficult. Some may be petty criminals, others may be agitated or stupid or drug affected or mentally ill. Not 'average citizens in normal circumstances'. Sometimes ordinary people may become difficult if they feel police are treating them unfairly, even if the police see it as reasonable. I'm not just talking US now, its everywhere. This is where training, culture & institutional attitudes are crucial because this is where escalation can have bad or even tragic consequences. This is where training to de-escalate and a culture that encourages that are crucial. I don't think its as simple as 'rogue' elements. They are an issue, but only one.

If police in Britain only fired their guns 3 times in a 12 month period that speaks to a particular police culture. One of the things it means is that British police don't shoot the mentally ill at anywhere near the rate we do in Australia or you do in the US. That alone is something I wish we could find a way to replicate, as we lost mentally ill person last week to police gunfire. I wouldn't suggest that culture can be transferred wholesale to the US or that it should be, but there must be lessons, even for the 'good' departments.
I have to think de-escalation would be SOP. Because its the cheapest tactic with big rewards.

As far as cops go i've always found Briitsh cops to be the least intimidating. They have presence without any of the weapons a US cop carries as std issue. We've imbibed some of that in India.

US means first thing they have to worry about is whether the other is armed but once past that point i don't see why what you said can't be done. I have to believe the better cops every where employ it. How do you mandate it, heh.

Let's see if there is any more reflective reporting on this coming up by people in the field. Not seen any posted so far. The how do we deal with this and try to reduce chances it does not happen again variety.

anil
18 Feb 15,, 06:58
For all the claims that some of my countrymen made here - Not all Nepalis who work in Bangalore or Mumbai or any other city is an Indian.
When I used the word "nepali", I wasn't referring just to citizens of nepal residing in india. There are vast colonies of nepali castes(chetri gorka gurung etc) around india who hold various identity papers alluding to indian citizenship.

I was trying to give you an example of an established group of mongoloid people who have deep interests with india with a history of engagement spanning centuries back to ancient india. The NE communities(everyone of the valley and of the hill) have roughly 2 decades of engagement with people in mainland india.

lemontree
18 Feb 15,, 08:09
Perhaps I AM stupid for using common sense.

I seriously doubt that....


Ever heard of a nepali in india being beaten up because he looked mongoloid? The irony is that it only and always seems to happen to NE people outside NE. What do make of this claim? wink http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/darksmiles/wink.gif

Just because you did not hear it, it does not mean it does not happen.
Did you ever wonder why the Gorkhas in Darjeeling are demanding a separate state??

Go and ask the Nepalese girls, on how they are treated by our north Indian brothers!!...

tbm3fan
18 Feb 15,, 08:10
In case no one caught this one here is another recent example of excessive force in my opinion.

17 Year-Old-Girl Shot Dead By Three Cops At Police Station (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/01/26/3615294/kristiana-coignard-shot-cops-longview/)


On Thursday, 17-year-old Kristiana Coignard was shot dead by three police officers in the lobby of the Longview Police Department. Coignard arrived at the station around 6:30 p.m. and asked to talk to an officer. Police say the girl was “brandishing a weapon” before she was shot four times.

The three officers, who have not been identified, have been placed on leave. The investigation of Coignard’s death is now being handled by the Texas Rangers.

The incident, at this point, is shrouded in mystery. Officials could not “confirm the type of weapon Coignard brandished at the officers.” Beyond the alleged, unspecified weapon, virtually no details about the events that immediately preceded Coignard’s death have been released.

Coignard was living in Longview with her Aunt, Heather Robertson. In an interview with ThinkProgress, Robertson raised questions about the circumstances of Coignard’s death. “I think it was a cry for help. I think they could have done something. They are grown men. I think there is something they are not telling us.”

Robertson said that her niece had been struggling with mental illness, including depression and bipolar disorder, since her mother died when she was four. She had been hospitalized twice in recent years after suicide attempts. One time, she tried to hang herself. Another time, she drank toilet bowl cleaner. Since arriving in Longview in December, Coignard had been taking medication and regularly seeing a therapist. She had no criminal record and “was only violent with herself, ” Robertson said.

Robertson and Coignard’s grandmother, Holly McGuire, spoke to a Longview police officer on the night Coignard was killed for about 30 minutes. They were provided with few details of what transpired but were told that a video of the incident, including sound, exists. They have not been contacted by the Texas Rangers.

Kristian Brian, a spokesperson for the Longview Police Department, declined to comment further on the case, citing the ongoing investigation by the Texas Rangers. Brian did confirm that a video of the incident exists.

Police officers frequently encounter the mentally ill, but often do not receive training. As a result “rash stigmatization and misinterpretation of the intentions of the mentally ill can cause vital errors and ultimately make the difference between life and death.”

Coignard’s death also raises questions about use of force protocols in the United States. British citizens, for example, “are about 100 times less likely to be shot by police, according to the Economist.”

Officers in Longview were involved in two fatal shootings in 2014, including one involving a 15-year-old. In both instances, the officers were cleared by a grand jury.

I argued this with a colleague in Texas who of course is extremely conservative. He saw no issues with this at all. The police were in fear for their life and were justified. I asked how dangerous could a small 17 year old girl be with a knife? He said a knife can be a dangerous weapon in a person's hands and had I ever seen a knife fight. What, she is a teenage girl and not a Navy Seal. I bowed out after that.

lemontree
18 Feb 15,, 08:17
I argued this with a colleague in Texas who of course is extremely conservative. He saw no issues with this at all. The police were in fear for their life and were justified. I asked how dangerous could a small 17 year old girl be with a knife? He said a knife can be a dangerous weapon in a person's hands and had I ever seen a knife fight. What, she is a teenage girl and not a Navy Seal. I bowed out after that.

The cop must have seen visions of "Kill Bill" in her.
However, a tragic and sad way for a young person to die.

anil
18 Feb 15,, 08:50
Just because you did not hear it, it does not mean it does not happen.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/smilies/ashamed0005.gif This statement?


Did you ever wonder why the Gorkhas in Darjeeling are demanding a separate state??
It's hard to claim indian citizenship when the nation state of nepal exists just a few kms away


Go and ask the Nepalese girls, on how they are treated by our north Indian brothers!!...
I wouldn't peddle gossip like that.

North does like to mark its territory but describing them as culturally deviant is very defamatory and wrong.

citanon
18 Feb 15,, 08:59
In case no one caught this one here is another recent example of excessive force in my opinion.

17 Year-Old-Girl Shot Dead By Three Cops At Police Station (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/01/26/3615294/kristiana-coignard-shot-cops-longview/)



I argued this with a colleague in Texas who of course is extremely conservative. He saw no issues with this at all. The police were in fear for their life and were justified. I asked how dangerous could a small 17 year old girl be with a knife? He said a knife can be a dangerous weapon in a person's hands and had I ever seen a knife fight. What, she is a teenage girl and not a Navy Seal. I bowed out after that.

I think I saw this video on Live Leak. Thing is, she came at one of them swinging with a knife. It looked like some scene from the movie Scream. I would have shot also if I were there.

The part that didn't quite compute for me: the cop who got her to the ground but couldn't keep her down despite outweighing her by at least 100 lbs. That guy needs to hit the gym hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21WqaDzztGk

Bigfella
18 Feb 15,, 09:05
That's the other huge elephant in the room. When should police escalate and when should they de-escalate? I think we are off-kilter in many parts of the US, but I don't think British police has it right either.

Its one of the keys to good policing because it is the most important issue relating to the privileges police get to use violence. It might be a small part of policing in terms of time on the job, but it is a huge part in terms of impact, especially potentially negative impact. I think you are right about many US police forces & I would throw in some in Australia - though I think we are improving. I wouldn't argue in favour of wholesale importation of the British approach to either nation, but it seems to be working there.

citanon
18 Feb 15,, 09:22
I argued this with a colleague in Texas who of course is extremely conservative. He saw no issues with this at all. The police were in fear for their life and were justified. I asked how dangerous could a small 17 year old girl be with a knife? He said a knife can be a dangerous weapon in a person's hands and had I ever seen a knife fight. What, she is a teenage girl and not a Navy Seal. I bowed out after that.

Unless you have unbelievable skill or have the appropriate tools it's almost impossible to defend against a determined knife attack. Once she went for him the only chance the police officer had was to shoot her. Any hesitation and he could be bleeding out in the next minute.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j55d8uqvKDQ

tuna
18 Feb 15,, 15:09
Unless you have unbelievable skill or have the appropriate tools it's almost impossible to defend against a determined knife attack. Once she went for him the only chance the police officer had was to shoot her. Any hesitation and he could be bleeding out in the next minute.


I've got to agree. Coming at someone with a knife is a great way to be shot. Letting someone get close to you with a knife, be they a teenager or a SEAL is a great way to be cut.

Even if you know what you are doing, you WILL be cut, and being cut is no fun.

I'm not one to usually agree with police use of force, but I've no issue with shooting a knife weilder. Sometimes you win stupid prizes when you play stupid games.

TopHatter
18 Feb 15,, 19:25
The part that didn't quite compute for me: the cop who got her to the ground but couldn't keep her down despite outweighing her by at least 100 lbs. That guy needs to hit the gym hard.It's not about weight or hitting the gym. Ever seen a parent try to restrain a squirming toddler?

I'd say he needs a crash course in restraining holds.

zraver
19 Feb 15,, 00:07
What, she is a teenage girl and not a Navy Seal. I bowed out after that.

Inside of 20 feet, if I have my knife out and your gun is holstered, you are going to get cut and overall odds favor me. Doesn't matter if the me is the 42yo male, or I am or a 17yo slip of a girl. Knives kill.

citanon
19 Feb 15,, 01:27
It's not about weight or hitting the gym. Ever seen a parent try to restrain a squirming toddler?

I'd say he needs a crash course in restraining holds.

Yeah that. Though it's hard to see clearly what was happening on the ground from the video. Maybe he got off her because she somehow got the knife out already.

TopHatter
19 Feb 15,, 02:06
Yeah that. Though it's hard to see clearly what was happening on the ground from the video.

That's why I don't believe that police body-cam's will be the panacea they've been promised to be. (That, and I'm mistrustful of "silver bullet" solutions).

Don't get me wrong, personal cams for every officer should absolutely be implemented IMO. But the original thread topic was on a police camera and it didn't deter these thugs from acting like...well, thugs.

gunnut
19 Feb 15,, 02:29
I'm Chinese.

Happy New Year! :)

citanon
19 Feb 15,, 03:48
Happy New Year! :)

Thanks! You too! I've been saying happy New Year to everyone I see today just to make it seem more festive. :biggrin:

bolo121
19 Feb 15,, 08:57
I just came across this when browsing. Absolutely horrifying. At least our Indian police only encounter kill people once properly bribed.

In Fairfax, Va., a different, no-less-scary police shooting - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/in-fairfax-va-a-different-no-less-scary-police-shooting-1.2960995)


White privilege didn't protect John Geer.

That's not to say he didn't have it. As a middle-class kitchen designer living in the pleasant Washington suburb of Fairfax, Va., he had nothing whatsoever in common with the impoverished black men killed by police in Missouri and Brooklyn last year.

Those deaths triggered riots, marches and demonstrations across America, and interventions by the White House.

But Geer, pierced 18 months ago by a police bullet as he stood inside the screen door of his own home, his hands raised, begging not to be shot, simply disappeared into the emotional mixing bowl of American news and political priorities.

That should not have happened. The killing of John Geer is probably the clearest and most compelling example of what amounts to police impunity in recent American history.

This part was what disgusted me the most.

Please ask him not to point his gun at me, Geer begged Barnes. Geer even offered to come out and be handcuffed voluntarily if Torres and the other patrolmen would agree to move "way back."

Then he asked to scratch his nose again. Barnes consented. And Torres fired.

Geer, grabbing his wound, screamed in pain and stepped back, slamming his door.

All of this was caught on video and still the guy is walking around free and is still a cop.
HE should be doing 30 years without the possibility of parole.

lemontree
19 Feb 15,, 10:28
I wouldn't peddle gossip like that.

Then you really are living in wonderland.


North does like to mark its territory but describing them as culturally deviant is very defamatory and wrong.
Their actions speak for them, and one does not become defamatory by calling a spade a spade.
You want to hide your head in the sand, then that is your choice.

I am rather shocked by your callous attitude to something that is quite an issue in India. But then the attitude you are displaying may be the reason for such an issue to still exist.

Double Edge
19 Feb 15,, 11:42
I am rather shocked by your callous attitude to something that is quite an issue in India. But then the attitude you are displaying may be the reason for such an issue to still exist.
There was an incident recently in my city where these girls (not nepali, not from the NE) but local and married went out for ice cream. And got harrassed by a bunch of boys. Why ? they should not be out late at night ie moral policing. They filmed the episode on their phones and called their husbands.

I can't imagine single guys having an issue with girls being out at night. If anything that's a good thing i'd have thought !!

lemontree
20 Feb 15,, 10:34
There was an incident recently in my city where these girls (not nepali, not from the NE) but local and married went out for ice cream. And got harrassed by a bunch of boys. Why ? they should not be out late at night ie moral policing. They filmed the episode on their phones and called their husbands.

Yup, that incident was all over the news channels, and the chaps got arrested too.

Blademaster
25 Feb 15,, 15:52
Sorry I got in a bit late. Obama's comments were apt, and in fact his comments and the drubbing the BJP got in the elections is what seems to have prompted the RSS to shut the VHP from making communal rants and Modi personally ordered the Delhi Police Commissioner to act after the 6th attack of church property within 2-3 months.

We don't want to be chided by an outsider, but we will continue to prosecute minorities!!



Actually a closer examination on the church attacks revealed that it was a smokescreen and only served to feed the false premise that the Modi government was anti minority all along. See here: Crying wolf: Narrative of ?Delhi church attacks? flies in the face of facts - Firstpost (http://www.firstpost.com/india/crying-wolf-narrative-of-delhi-church-attacks-flies-in-the-face-of-facts-2101105.html)

It was a very clever ploy by the AAP and its media allies to paint Modi as anti-minority and cast the blame on Modi when the above facts revealed that out of 6, 5 were deemed to be non hate crimes, where half of them were due to run of the mill burglary crimes and the others accidents, nothing of a hate crime nature.

Yes Modi had to step in because the AAP and the Catholic Church was so adept in making this into something that it was not - a falsehood that the RSS, and therefore, BJP was somehow behind this "wave of violence"

Enjoy the ill gotten fruits of crying wolf, my friend, and see how far that takes you.

citanon
07 Mar 15,, 10:26
How it's supposed to be done:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWXuPTNxwpE

Blademaster
07 Mar 15,, 23:30
And completely misses the point. The grandfather did no action that required or necessitated a police response. He told them he couldn't speak english and did not pose any threat or did not break any law or ordinance at that point. He tried to give the police his identification which the police greatly overreacted to and slammed him down to the ground.

citanon
17 Mar 15,, 05:41
LiveLeak.com - Graphic Body Cam Footage Shows Dallas Police Shooting Mentally Ill Man Holding Screwdriver (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f4_1426548792)

Wow. Does anyone want to defend the officers in this video? I can't find any justification. The guy had a screw driver, not a knife, not a shiv, a freaking screw driver.

Officer of Engineers
17 Mar 15,, 06:16
LiveLeak.com - Graphic Body Cam Footage Shows Dallas Police Shooting Mentally Ill Man Holding Screwdriver (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f4_1426548792)

Wow. Does anyone want to defend the officers in this video? I can't find any justification. The guy had a screw driver, not a knife, not a shiv, a freaking screw driver.How sharp is a SKS bayonet?

citanon
17 Mar 15,, 07:59
How sharp is a SKS bayonet?

Still a difference between:

39445

And:

39446

Maybe if the guy sharpened it. I suspect he didn't or his mother wouldn't haven't been so nonchalant walking out of the house. Plus she was getting between him and the officer he was heading towards. They had time to back up and take out the tazer if they tolerated a little more risk.

And there's also the nonchalant attitude of the shooter, chuckling at the end of the video when he got back in his patrol car.....

omon
17 Mar 15,, 18:25
i remember watching documentary "faces of death", there was an episode there (all real, filmed as it happened) 1 mentaly ill patient in nut house, got a hold of screwdriver that maintanace man left behind, he killed 1 doctor with it, striking him in the neck, dead doctor was on video laying in thy floor bleeding, than the guy was holding a nurse hostage, and held a screwdriver to her thorat, 2 cops were there pointing guns at him, but did not shoot, next second the guy put the screwdriver all the way into nure's neck, only than cops shot him. they had a chance to save her, but all they did was yell "drop the weapon". now why would you not shoot, if you know for a fact he already killed 1 guy, and is about to kill another, well at the end of the day cops failed to safe a nurse, they could have saved her, if they opened fire few seconds earlier.

now another thing, flat screwdriver is just as lethal as knife, but it is perfectly legal to carry. and yes you can poke a person thru up to the handle easy, with barely sharpened flat head. anyone can try it and see how easy it goes thru tissue, and skin. (do not poke yourself, poke a meat, next time you buy a big piece.

tuna
17 Mar 15,, 18:59
Cops were kind of in a no winner at that point. If they shot, someone would have asked:
1. Why did they shoot someone "only" armed with a screwdriver (don't let facts get in the way of emotions)
2. Why didn't they have training for dealing with mentally disturbed people
3. Why didn't they shoot the gun out of his hand or hit him in the leg? (Again, don't let facts get in the way of a hissy fit)

And yes - screwdrivers go into flesh very easily...which is why I don't put them in my back pocket any more.

Side note - also legal and not looked at as so "weaponlike" is a large set of vise grips or crescent wrench. I've always advocated my female loved ones carry this when they go to colleges (where only criminals have weapons), since they always need to adjust the thingamjig on their cars.

zraver
18 Mar 15,, 05:41
Video seems to show a cop shotting a man in the back who was on the ground, that is not defensible.

TopHatter
27 Mar 15,, 20:38
Federal charge for ex-cop in confrontation with Indian man

BIRMINGHAM, Alabama (AP) — A former Alabama police officer has been charged with violating the civil rights of an Indian man who was injured during a violent confrontation, authorities said Friday.

Former Madison police officer Eric Sloan Parker is charged with using unreasonable force that left Sureshbhai Patel partially paralyzed. The 57-year-old grandfather was slammed face-first to the ground in the Feb. 6 confrontation, which was captured on video.

Parker will plead not guilty, defense attorney Robert Tuten said.

"We are shocked, disappointed and overwhelmed by all the ways Eric Parker is coming under attack," Tuten said in an email. "However, we are looking forward to seeing the indictment and having our day in court."

Police treatment of minorities has become a big issue in the United States over the past year, and U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance said people "must be able to trust the police."

"Law enforcement officers who violate their oath to protect and use excessive force must be brought to justice," Vance said in a statement.

Hank Sherrod, an attorney for Patel, said Patel and his family were "very pleased by the prompt and decisive action" of federal prosecutors.

Patel has made "tremendous progress" and recently took a few steps using a walker but remains in a rehab center in Huntsville, Sherrod said.

Patel was visiting relatives when police were called to a suburban neighborhood where he was walking.

Audio and video recordings released by police show Patel was slammed to the ground by an officer responding to a call about someone walking in a subdivision in the town.

Parker, 26, of Toney has since been fired and faces a state assault charge. Patel also has filed a civil lawsuit.

Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley previously apologized to the Indian government for the treatment of Patel, calling it a case of "excessive force."

The police chief in Madison, a suburb of Huntsville in the Tennessee Valley of north Alabama, also has apologized for what happened to Patel. Link (http://news.yahoo.com/federal-charge-ex-cop-confrontation-indian-man-162811169.html)
___________________

Glad to know there is accountability and swift action taken on both the Federal and State level.

Monash
30 Mar 15,, 11:23
LiveLeak.com - Graphic Body Cam Footage Shows Dallas Police Shooting Mentally Ill Man Holding Screwdriver (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f4_1426548792)

Wow. Does anyone want to defend the officers in this video? I can't find any justification. The guy had a screw driver, not a knife, not a shiv, a freaking screw driver.

Wasn't able to see the video but I might suggest considering what that screwdriver could do if driven into your abdomen by a drug effected, angry or mentally disturbed adult male. Alternately consider how hard you could punch out with a screwdriver if seriously pissed off/frightened.

The general rule is - put yourself in the officers shoes, ask if you had time to issue warnings/directions, if so ask if they were obeyed. If not consider what other force options were available and whether you had time to deploy them - and remember you can usually only choose one option in the few seconds you have to deploy it. Would you have used OC spray for instance or gone to taser or baton? Finally if you are not 100% certain of your choice then how easy is it to judge the other guy? Always put yourself in the other persons shoes before you judge.

That aside there are heaps of examples (in the US at least due to sheer scale) where LEOs have either made a wrong decision or else were grossly negligent if not criminal in their conduct. The former is an innocent mistake, the latter should see them treated like any other offender.

Blademaster
30 Mar 15,, 14:54
The general rule is - put yourself in the officers shoes, ask if you had time to issue warnings/directions, if so ask if they were obeyed. If not consider what other force options were available and whether you had time to deploy them - and remember you can usually only choose one option in the few seconds you have to deploy it. Would you have used OC spray for instance or gone to taser or baton? Finally if you are not 100% certain of your choice then how easy is it to judge the other guy? Always put yourself in the other persons shoes before you judge.

That aside there are heaps of examples (in the US at least due to sheer scale) where LEOs have either made a wrong decision or else were grossly negligent if not criminal in their conduct. The former is an innocent mistake, the latter should see them treated like any other offender.

Why do the public have to put themselves in the officer's shoes in the first place? The LEO is there to protect the public and individuals, not himself. If he can't handle that, then he shouldn't be a LEO in the first place. The job of the LEO is to put the public's safety and individual members' safety first before himself.

I saw the video and that suspect, given all the rights of being presumed innocent until proven guilty, was not acting in any hostile manner even with the screwdriver. But the LEO just went ahead and shot him up and he was heard laughing afterwards. That tells me that he didn't exactly fear for his safety in the first place. So I do not agree with your post at all.

Monash
31 Mar 15,, 06:56
Why do the public have to put themselves in the officer's shoes in the first place? The LEO is there to protect the public and individuals, not himself. If he can't handle that, then he shouldn't be a LEO in the first place. The job of the LEO is to put the public's safety and individual members' safety first before himself.

I saw the video and that suspect, given all the rights of being presumed innocent until proven guilty, was not acting in any hostile manner even with the screwdriver. But the LEO just went ahead and shot him up and he's was heard laughing afterwards. That tells me that he didn't exactly fear for his safety in the first place. So I do not agree with your post at all.

As I said I haven't seen the video so I can't comment on this particular case, although based purely on your description the officer in question may well have made a serious error of judgment (and that's putting it lightly).

That said. LEO's job is to uphold the law not put his life at risk in order to serve the public. They are not expected to suffer injury or death as part of their job description any more than a fireman is 'expected' to burn to death in the line of duty or a Doctor is 'expected' to risk catching a serious illness in the course of treating the sick. These things are risk factors to be mitigated against, not job descriptors.

A LEO has no more of a legal obligation to put themselves at risk than any private citizen - there is simply a greater probability of such harm occurring given the specific nature of the job they perform.

As for the rest if called to account for their actions before a jury that is how a LEO'S actions will be judged I.e. each member of the jury will asked to decide based on the evidence put before them whether the officer's actions were reasonable in the circumstances. (Would I do the same thing in the same circumstances if I was in his or her place.)

TopHatter
01 Sep 15,, 23:57
Alabama police officer on trial for throwing Indian man to ground

(Reuters) - The federal trial of an Alabama police officer who faces a civil rights charge after being captured on video throwing an Indian man to the ground got underway on Tuesday with the start of jury selection, prosecutors said.

Eric Parker, 26, is accused of using unreasonable force while serving as a police officer in Madison, Alabama during the Feb. 6 incident, which left an Indian grandfather badly injured.

He faces a single charge of depriving the victim of his rights.

Sureshbhai Patel, who spoke no English, had been on a morning walk about two weeks after moving from India to northern Alabama to help his son's family care for a young child.

He sustained injuries that required surgery to relieve pressure on his spinal cord, according to a civil suit that he has filed against Parker and the city.

The 58-year-old is expected to testify through a translator, his attorney Hank Sherrod said in an email. He said Patel is not expected to fully recover from his injuries, and now requires assistance to walk.

The police department released a video recorded inside a patrol vehicle. It showed Patel standing with his hands behind his back with two uniformed officers in a residential neighborhood, before he was abruptly flipped to the ground.

The Madison Police Department apologized for Parker's actions and recommended his termination, which he has challenged.

Parker's attorney, Robert Tuten, previously said the officer did not believe he had violated the law. He could not immediately be reached for comment on Tuesday.

Parker was charged in state court with misdemeanor assault. Both that trial and his termination proceedings are on hold pending the outcome of the federal case, a city official said. Link (http://news.yahoo.com/alabama-police-officer-trial-throwing-indian-man-ground-180833592.html)

TopHatter
03 Sep 15,, 03:43
Indian man injured by police testifies against officer

HUNTSVILLE, Ala. (AP) — An Indian man left partially paralyzed when he was slammed to the ground during a police stop in Alabama testified Wednesday that he'd been in the state only about a week when he was confronted by officers investigating a call about a suspicious person.

Sureshbhai Patel, 58, was pushed in a wheelchair to the witness stand in U.S. District Court in Huntsville, where he testified through an interpreter against Officer Eric Parker during the opening day of testimony. Parker is accused of violating Patel's civil rights during the police stop Feb. 6 in Madison, a suburban city of about 46,500 just west of Huntsville.

Patel recounted how he was staying with his son on a visit from India and had been out for a morning walk in the neighborhood when police approached. He said he doesn't speak English and couldn't understand the orders police gave him.

Cameras in patrol cars recorded the scene as Parker swept one of his legs in front of Patel, slamming him to the ground.

"My two hands, my two legs they all became cold and numb," Patel said, testifying through interpreter.

Patel later recalled that he couldn't stand after officers tried lifting him up. Patel's family has said he still has trouble walking and that the family faces hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills.

Madison police officer Charles Spence testified Wednesday morning that Parker had Patel's hands behind his back when he arrived and that he didn't think Patel needed to be detained because he didn't appear to pose a threat or resist officers. Spence said Patel was knocked down, then handcuffed and the cuffs were taken off when it became clear that he was hurt.

Video, which was slowed down and enlarged for jurors, was shown in court while Spence was on the witness stand.

In the video, Patel can be seen turning his head toward Parker just before he was knocked down. Before and after the takedown, officers are heard several times trying unsuccessfully to communicate with Patel, who had repeatedly said "No English."

Parker and his attorney, Robert Tuten, have said Patel repeatedly tried jerking away from officers and reached for his pockets.

Patel denied those claims through his interpreter and said he stopped when officers ordered him to because he heard them shout — not because he understood what they were saying. Patel also said officers "checked his pants" before he was slammed down.

Police were called after a neighbor reported a thin black man walking around looking at houses. Spence said he initially passed Patel and kept looking for a black man who fit the description.

Prosecutors dismissed the defense's argument that the use of force was justified. They noted that officers were seeking a person based on a vague description and that Patel wasn't engaged in any criminal activity.

"We could imagine some ghastly scenarios, right?" prosecutor Robert Posey asked after Tuten mentioned hypothetical situations a suspicious person could have been involved in. "But that doesn't mean you get to treat everybody like a home invasion killer," Posey said.

Police are trained to be suspicious and must always expect the worst, Tuten said during opening statements. He called Patel's injuries unfortunate and characterized the encounter as an escalation of police tactics, not a criminal offense.

"They say excessive force, Officer Parker says reasonable under the circumstances," Tuten said, later adding. "It's unfortunate that Mr. Patel doesn't speak English. It's also unfortunate that Mr. Parker doesn't speak Hindi."

Patel, a farmer from Gujarat, India, speaks Gujarati. His son, Chirag Patel, said he spent the last nine years working to bring his parents to the United States.

Chirag Patel said he hadn't thought of telling his father to carry identification during his usual morning walks strolling down the block and back.

The elder man, who is now undergoing physical rehabilitation, has since been joined by his wife and now lives in Alabama with his son.

Parker is being fired by the city of Madison but has appealed and the termination process is on hold until criminal charges are resolved.

Court documents show Madison Police Chief Larry Muncey is expected to testify for prosecutors that Parker's actions violated department procedures. He publicly apologized to Patel.

Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley called Patel's treatment a case of "excessive force" in an apologetic letter to the Indian government.

Parker also faces a state assault charge. Patel filed a federal lawsuit seeking an unspecified amount of money for his injuries. Link (http://news.yahoo.com/opening-statements-near-trial-alabama-officer-084913208.html)

kato
03 Sep 15,, 07:48
i remember watching documentary "faces of death"
Faces of Death is not a documentary. Faces of Death IV - including the scene with the nurse - in particular is entirely faked.