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View Full Version : 2 NYPD cops shot dead ‘execution style’ in Brooklyn



Parihaka
21 Dec 14,, 00:25
Given the current frictions between the police and Mayor De Blasio (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2882169/Bill-Blasio-charged-murder-Hundreds-attack-New-York-City-Mayor-having-blood-hands-two-police-officers-ambushed-killed.html), I wonder if he'll be invited to the funeral (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Police-Union-Petitions-for-Mayor-Speaker-Not-to-Attend-Officer-Funerals-285660651.html)


Two uniformed NYPD officers were shot dead — execution style — as they sat in their marked police car on a Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, street corner.
According to preliminary reports, both officers were working overtime as part of an anti-terrorism drill when they were shot point-blank by a single gunman who approached their car at the corner of Myrtle and Tompkins avenues.
“It’s an execution,” one law enforcement source told The Post of the 3 p.m. shooting.
The gunman just started “pumping bullets” into the patrol car, another source said.
The suspected gunman fled to a nearby subway station at Myrtle and Willoughby avenues, where he was fatally shot. Preliminary reports were unclear on whether he was shot by police or his own hand.
“They engaged the guy and he did himself,” one investigator said.
MoreGunman kills self after 2 NYPD cops fatally shot ‘execution style’ as ‘revenge’ for Garner | New York Post (http://nypost.com/2014/12/20/2-nypd-cops-shot-execution-style-in-brooklyn/)

Parihaka
21 Dec 14,, 19:10
Interesting to see the sanitisation of the story over the last 24 hours in real time rather than using way back.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/20/sick-cheers-for-cop-killer-in-brooklyn.html
Anyways, it no longer has anything to do with the race hate campaign being run by the democrat party but just another unfortunate coincidence, nothing to see, move on.

TopHatter
21 Dec 14,, 20:13
This occurred (for real) the way people imagine Michael Brown was killed: Sitting there minding his own business when some racist cop decided to execute him in broad daylight simply for being black.

Julie
21 Dec 14,, 21:41
Any comment from Sharpton or Justice Department about this horrid incident? Just askin...

TopHatter
21 Dec 14,, 22:12
Any comment from Sharpton or Justice Department about this horrid incident? Just askin...

Sharpton denounced it pretty scathingly. Not that he had much of a choice.

Julie
22 Dec 14,, 00:26
I read that the gun had been purchased in a pawn shop in 1996 in Georgia, and he had 15 arrests in Georgia. :slap: He also shot his girlfriend in Maryland just previous to him going to New York.

zraver
22 Dec 14,, 00:43
I read that the gun had been purchased in a pawn shop in 1996 in Georgia, and he had 15 arrests in Georgia. :slap: He also shot his girlfriend in Maryland just previous to him going to New York.

he tweeted just before and just after the shooting- saw the blood on his pants. So a black man mad about white cops killing other black men shoots an Asian and a Hispanic... makes (no) sense. Shooting random cops won't fix the divide between police and citizen, it will only reinforce the cop siege mentality which will lead to more use of force which will lead to more citizen sense of siege...

Bigfella
22 Dec 14,, 00:52
he tweeted just before and just after the shooting- saw the blood on his pants. So a black man mad about white cops killing other black men shoots an Asian and a Hispanic... makes (no) sense.

.....and his girlfriend (race unknown to me at this point). Lets not forget the first victim in all this just because she doesn't fit the narrative.

If you are trying to find sense in any of this you will fail. The only people who think they see some sort of 'sense' in this are running their own agendas.

Parihaka
22 Dec 14,, 01:07
The only people who think they see some sort of 'sense' in this are running their own agendas.

Here's one agenda
The NY Police Union (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/21/the-ny-police-union-s-vile-war-with-mayor-de-blasio.html)
You'll note the automatic assumption and justification that NYPD police are inherently racist, invoking De Blasio, the President etc.
This isn't a new agenda, the democrats have been running it for years.

zraver
22 Dec 14,, 02:17
.....and his girlfriend (race unknown to me at this point). Lets not forget the first victim in all this just because she doesn't fit the narrative.

If you are trying to find sense in any of this you will fail. The only people who think they see some sort of 'sense' in this are running their own agendas.

He may have shot her, haven't seen that confirmed, I did see his posts directly before and after the shooting saying he was gonna give (then gave) a pair of pigs their wings (his words). He said he was doing this for Mike Brown and Eric Garner.

bonehead
22 Dec 14,, 06:16
Sharpton denounced it pretty scathingly. Not that he had much of a choice.


— Rev. Al Sharpton

"Gun violence continues to plague our city and we remain committed to working with both members of the community and law enforcement to address it in a nonviolent, peaceful, and productive way."




I'd say the bastard used the usual liberal "gun violence" bull shit as he never lets an event go by without blaming guns.

lemontree
22 Dec 14,, 07:15
Very unfortunate and tragic for the two policemen. RIP

Parihaka
22 Dec 14,, 10:55
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/22/nyregion/a-widening-rift-between-de-blasio-and-the-police-is-savagely-ripped-open.html

Julie
22 Dec 14,, 12:08
I see now he had at least 19 charges in Georgia alone, some for gun possession. The shooter's mother states that he had mental issues and even she was scared of him. With THAT kind of rap sheet, how was this guy even still walking the streets, and with a gun? The shooter had a history of doing bad things for attention. NY attracted him like a magnet.

astralis
22 Dec 14,, 16:45
pari,


You'll note the automatic assumption and justification that NYPD police are inherently racist, invoking De Blasio, the President etc.

even without invoking the race card, there's simply a problem with the simple numbers when it comes to US police turning to what should be a last resort.

38794

moreover, as the article you posted points out, police dept reporting shows that black males are 21x more likely to be shot than white males.

one doesn't need to be a full-on race-baiter like Sharpton to note that something is wrong here, and that this ultimately undermines minority trust in the police, which is bad for -everyone-.

Mihais
22 Dec 14,, 18:22
Black males should then do 21 times less crime.I somehow doubt cops can get away with cold blooded murder of innocents,especially given a working environment where the slightest attack on a ''minority'' results in investigations,media attention and the whole circus associated with it.

tuna
22 Dec 14,, 19:22
Maybe if the cops didn't carry guns, they wouldn't be so quick to use them? After all, bringing a gun to a situation only makes the situation worse.

At least, that's what the police tell civilians who want to protect themselves...

tantalus
22 Dec 14,, 19:49
pari,



even without invoking the race card, there's simply a problem with the simple numbers when it comes to US police turning to what should be a last resort.

38794

moreover, as the article you posted points out, police dept reporting shows that black males are 21x more likely to be shot than white males.



0 in Japan and Britain, that's a remarkable year.

21 more times...That requires further qualification, the fact that black males are in poorer social cohert means on average they will be involved in more crime. I am not saying that there isn't discrimination and racial profiling on top of this reality. It'd ridiculous to believe otherwise. Humans possess an inherent nature towards discrimination and something like racial profiling comes easy too us, it will always be a problem, especially if one race is on average poorer than an another, we will constantly need to guard against it, and remain vigilant in keeping it at a minimum.

Parihaka
22 Dec 14,, 20:34
pari,



even without invoking the race card, there's simply a problem with the simple numbers when it comes to US police turning to what should be a last resort.

38794

moreover, as the article you posted points out, police dept reporting shows that black males are 21x more likely to be shot than white males.

one doesn't need to be a full-on race-baiter like Sharpton to note that something is wrong here, and that this ultimately undermines minority trust in the police, which is bad for -everyone-.

Yeah I freely admit I nearly fell of my chair when I read the 21X number. The natural takeout is that your police forces are staffed almost exclusively by current KKK/Stormfront members which given the nature of your country isn't right so I went and had a look at the study where I found these.


The data, for instance, is terribly incomplete. Vast numbers of the country's 17,000 police departments don't file fatal police shooting reports at all, and many have filed reports for some years but not others. Florida departments haven't filed reports since 1997 and New York City last reported in 2007. Information contained in the individual reports can also be flawed. Still, lots of the reporting police departments are in larger cities, and at least 1000 police departments filed a report or reports over the 33 years
And

i ProPublica calculated a statistical figure called a risk ratio by dividing the rate of black homicide victims by the rate of white victims. This ratio, commonly used in epidemiology, gives an estimate for how much more at risk black teenagers were to be killed by police officers.Risk ratios can have varying levels of precision, depending on a variety of mathematical factors. In this case, because such shootings are rare from a statistical perspective, a 95 percent confidence interval indicates that black teenagers are at between 10 and 40 times greater risk of being killed by a police officer. The calculation used 2010-2012 population estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau's American Community Survey.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not decrying the study itself but the interpretations without context, so I went and had a look at your raw crime vs ethnicity figures as per the FBI
FBI — Table 43 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf)
Here my math went woolly but even with the very high rate of black vs white violent crime, the police shootings of black still seemed higher than shootings of white, so then I went looking for 'peer review'.
John Lott: Dangerous distortions on cops shooting black men - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/john-lott-dangerous-distortions-cops-shooting-black-men-article-1.2030545)


But the original 21-fold claim is based on worse than unreliable data. ProPublica acknowledges that the data on justifiable police killings are “terribly incomplete. . . . Vast numbers of the country’s 17,000 police departments don’t file fatal police shooting reports at all.”

But they don't make it clear that literally only a couple hundred police departments (217 in 2012, just 1.2% of all the departments in the country) report these numbers.

Even worse, the very few police departments that do report are predominately urban areas, which tend to have much higher concentrations of blacks. This skews the numbers to over-represent black deaths.

ProPublica justifies its use of the flawed data by quoting David Klinger, a University of Missouri-St. Louis professor. However, Klinger told me that he told ProPublica that the FBI Uniform Crime Report data on justifiable police homicide is “no good,” a common view of those who work with the data. (One ProPublica author, Ryan Gabrielson, denied to me that Professor Klinger told them this.)

If you’re going to correctly compare the rates at which police kill black and white male teenagers, you have to compare teenage crime rates. You can’t just compare crime rates among the entire black and white populations. The rate that these teenagers commit murder, not including rape and other less serious crimes, also provides a somewhat better measure of the perceived threat that they might pose to police.

Among blacks, teenage crime is much more prevalent. Based on the most recent available FBI crime numbers, black male teenagers were nine times more likely to commit murder than were their white counterparts. That’s right, nine times, and the gap in these urban areas is undoubtedly even larger.

After adjusting for murder rates, black male teenagers are still killed by the police 2.3 times as often as whites. This is a considerable difference — but again, over-representation of urban areas in the data set could be a big part of the explanation.

The big play to portray your police as inherently racist dating right back to before the Henry Louis Gates fiasco is a very dangerous path. The recent Martin/Brown/Garner protests, where both the protestors and supporters are suggesting that not only are your cops endemically racist but your court systems also and the whole notion of trial by a jury of your peers should be overridden based on nothing but the perception of race has no upside.
De Blassio is no way responsible for the deaths of the two officers, nor Holder, nor Obama. They are partly responsible for the growing antipathy toward your police and court system because they systematically call those systems into question whenever an action or result happens that supports their narrative of racism.

Parihaka
22 Dec 14,, 22:45
and a counter view from Slate (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/12/ismaaiyl_brinsley_murdered_two_police_officers_in_ brooklyn_police_departments.html)


Given the dangers inherent to being a police officer—and the extent to which most cops are trying to do the best they can—it’s actually understandable that cops are a little angry with official and unofficial criticism. But they should know it comes with the territory. For all the leeway they receive, the police aren’t an inviolable force; they’re part of a public trust, accountable to elected leaders and the people who choose them. And in the same way that police have a responsibility to protect and secure the law, citizens have a responsibility to hold improper conduct to account.

Yes, this is contested terrain and both sides will fight to define the scope and limits of police power. But these arguments are a vital part of self-governance, which is why everyone should be disturbed by statements like Giuliani’s, Pataki’s, and Patrick Lynch’s. The idea that citizens can’t criticize police—that free speech excludes scrutiny of state violence—is disturbing. Since, if free speech doesn’t include the right to challenge the official use of force, then it isn’t really free speech.

gunnut
22 Dec 14,, 23:19
— Rev. Al Sharpton

"Gun violence continues to plague our city and we remain committed to working with both members of the community and law enforcement to address it in a nonviolent, peaceful, and productive way."




I'd say the bastard used the usual liberal "gun violence" bull shit as he never lets an event go by without blaming guns.

I blame cars for car accidents and alcohol for alcoholics. Most importantly, I blame cars and alcohol for drunk driving.... :biggrin:

gunnut
22 Dec 14,, 23:22
Maybe if the cops didn't carry guns, they wouldn't be so quick to use them? After all, bringing a gun to a situation only makes the situation worse.

At least, that's what the police tell civilians who want to protect themselves...

I'm all for banning guns. Let's start with the police first.

Bigfella
23 Dec 14,, 00:47
He may have shot her, haven't seen that confirmed, I did see his posts directly before and after the shooting saying he was gonna give (then gave) a pair of pigs their wings (his words). He said he was doing this for Mike Brown and Eric Garner.

He did shoot her. She survived & is in hospital. This guy had a long history of petty crime & violent behaviour. he had also attempted suicide on at least one previous occasion. Diagnosed or otherwise, it sounds like this guy was mentally ill.:


Brinsley, 28, had at least 19 arrests in Georgia and Ohio, spent two years in prison for gun possession and had a troubled childhood so violent that his mother was afraid of him, police said. He ranted online about police and the government and expressed "self-despair and anger at himself and where his life was," Boyce said.

Boyce said Brinsley's mother believed he had undiagnosed mental problems and may have been on medication at some point, but detectives were still trying to determine if he had a mental illness.

Ismaaiyl Brinsley, New York Cop Killer, Had Long Criminal History (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/22/ismaaiyl-brinsley-crimina_n_6366688.html)

astralis
23 Dec 14,, 03:02
pari,


The natural takeout is that your police forces are staffed almost exclusively by current KKK/Stormfront members which given the nature of your country isn't right so I went and had a look at the study where I found these.

this is really a simplification of the nature of current-day racism in the US. no, the police are not staffed with KKK/Stormfront members. nor do we really face the systemic, legally-sanctioned racism of the past. however, there is a much more subtle type of bias which does remain:

How subconscious racism complicates racial disparities in policing - Vox (http://www.vox.com/2014/8/28/6051971/police-implicit-bias-michael-brown-ferguson-missouri)


The big play to portray your police as inherently racist dating right back to before the Henry Louis Gates fiasco is a very dangerous path. The recent Martin/Brown/Garner protests, where both the protestors and supporters are suggesting that not only are your cops endemically racist but your court systems also and the whole notion of trial by a jury of your peers should be overridden based on nothing but the perception of race has no upside.

i would ask that you differentiate whom is saying this.

again, sharpton is not the default liberal view here. i'd say this is more of the average liberal take:

Ismaaiyl Brinsley murdered two police officers in Brooklyn: Police departments claim to be targeted by anti-police movement. (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/12/ismaaiyl_brinsley_murdered_two_police_officers_in_ brooklyn_police_departments.html)


De Blassio is no way responsible for the deaths of the two officers, nor Holder, nor Obama. They are partly responsible for the growing antipathy toward your police and court system because they systematically call those systems into question whenever an action or result happens that supports their narrative of racism.

reference the article above.

even if we were to look at this from a very limited, political/special interest perspective, i doubt it is a goal for the party of government to undermine fellow government officials...especially officials in an union...to support a narrative that would politically appeal to only a very limited sector of the voting populace.

especially a voting populace that they already have a lock on.

Parihaka
23 Dec 14,, 03:57
pari,



this is really a simplification of the nature of current-day racism in the US. no, the police are not staffed with KKK/Stormfront members. nor do we really face the systemic, legally-sanctioned racism of the past. however, there is a much more subtle type of bias which does remain:

How subconscious racism complicates racial disparities in policing - Vox (http://www.vox.com/2014/8/28/6051971/police-implicit-bias-michael-brown-ferguson-missouri)

To be honest Asty I'm not to sure what you're saying here, is it that implicit racism justifies the 21X claim? If so there's a plethora of studies which debunk it, every criminologist I've found ridicules that '21 times more likely'.

As for implicit racism fortunately we have better than vox to determine if an implicit bias as defined by Fridell et al actually relates to near real world results.


Our participants demonstrated significantly greater threat responses (http://spokane.wsu.edu/admissions/Criminal-Justice/faculty-staff/Racial&EthnicBiasDFJDMStrongerLens_ExperimentalCriminolog y_JamesKlingerVila2014.pdf) against black suspects than white or Hispanic suspects suggesting they held subconscious biases associating blacks with threat. This finding is consistent with the psychological liter- ature on racial stereotypes (Devine and Elliot 1995), the experimental research on implicit bias in shooting behavior (Correll et al. 2006), and much of the criminological literature on police use of deadly force in the field (Sorenson et al. 1993; Jacobs and O’Brien 1998). However, our participants showed a behavioral bias in favor of blacks because they took longer to shoot armed black suspects than armed white or Hispanic suspects. In other words, they hesitated longest before deciding to shoot black suspects. Thus, contrary to expectations, participants’ subconscious bias that blacks were more threatening resulted in behaviors that favored blacks over white or Hispanic suspects.
Participants in the present study displayed greater alpha suppression when facing black suspects, in both threat and null (respectively “shoot” and “don’t-shoot”) scenar- ios. This indicates that they reacted subconsciously to the racial aspect of minority status in the manner expected by theory as did the participants in previous, button- pushing studies (e.g., Ito and Urland 2003; Correll et al. 2006; Sadler et al. 2012). However, although the research participants in the present study appeared to exhibit subconscious bias against blacks, it had an inverse effect on the speed with which they pulled the trigger on the real handgun adapted for use in the simulator. Our results using a more physically, psychologically, and neurophysiologically realistic stimulus than the button-pressing research design suggests that participants’ bias against blacks when compared to Hispanics or whites delayed their decision to shoot.
It is critical to note that this study examined the impact of racial/ethnic bias on the subconscious responses and shooting behavior of non-police participants. As such, the results from this sample are not generalizable to sworn officers. However, there is some evidence from the field to support the proposition that an officer’s threat bias could cause him or her to tend to take more time to make decisions to shoot people whom they subconsciously perceived as more threatening because of race or ethnicity. This behavioral “counter-bias” might be rooted in people’s concerns about the social and legal consequences of shooting a member of a historically oppressed racial or ethnic group.
Discussion of a counter-bias favoring blacks extends at least as far back as the late 1970s, when Inn et al. (1977) reported that incident records from a major metropolitan police department showed that officers fired more shots per incident at white suspects than at black suspects. This finding led them to speculate that, “perhaps, police behave more cautiously with blacks because of departmental policy or public sentiment concerning treatment of blacks” (Inn et al. 1977: 35).

So yes there is implicit racism, Obama's grandma was no different than the rest of us. From this one study though, the subjects were less likely to shoot a black person than a white one.



i would ask that you differentiate whom is saying this.The NYPD, the NYPD unions and affiliates, the former governor of New York, the former Mayor of New York, along with sundry others. EDIT TO ADD: this just in...


Politicians have spent the months since the tragedy in Ferguson piously wringing their hands and bemoaning the lack of trust of police by the minority community. Mayors and Congressmen and Senators and professional racists from all sides have seized on the moment to advance their often self-serving opinions of what is wrong in America as a hyperventilating media nods knowingly and faithfully reports each and every word. Enough is enough.

While these politicians and their retinues ignore the decaying infrastructure of our cities, the substandard educational system, the nonexistent families, the poor nutrition, the lack of employment opportunities–all of which create a toxic environment which breeds crime–they focus with laser vision on every real or perceived mistake made by the cops fighting a running battle to keep the streets safe for our poorest and most disadvantaged citizens in our country’s worst pockets.

Enough is enough. There’s nothing wrong with the way cops do their jobs that won’t be fixed when politicians suck it up and attack the problems that breed poverty and crime–but they’re not going to do that. The media professes shock when we speak out–well, buckle them on America–you’re going to hear a lot from our 325,000 members in the days and months ahead. Some of you may not like it, but you would do well to listen. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Chuck Canterbury, president of the Fraternal Order of Police (http://www.fop.net/servlet/display/news_article?id=6005&XSL=xsl_pages%2fpublic_news_individual.xsl&nocache=30772313)

Is there an implicit bias against police and the judicial system within Democrat ranks? The fact you all believe they need retraining would suggest so.


even if we were to look at this from a very limited, political/special interest perspective, i doubt it is a goal for the party of government to undermine fellow government officials...especially officials in an union...to support a narrative that would politically appeal to only a very limited sector of the voting populace.

especially a voting populace that they already have a lock on.
Aye well I apparently have a much better view of your fellow democrats than you. I believe most of them actually believe there is a police/judicial bias against blacks and they are genuine in their attempts to change that. After all, those most likely to profit from Obamacare were already locked into the democrat party, yet they introduced it anyway.

Parihaka
23 Dec 14,, 04:56
He did shoot her. She survived & is in hospital. This guy had a long history of petty crime & violent behaviour. he had also attempted suicide on at least one previous occasion. Diagnosed or otherwise, it sounds like this guy was mentally ill.:

'It’s true that the shooter in New York appears to have been mentally troubled. But that doesn’t mean that his act can or should be treated as an isolated event, having nothing to do with the national climate.'

'In Manhattan’s Union Square last week, a protester wielded a menacing sign. It didn’t make the front page of any newspaper. You didn’t see it on cable news. An appalled bystander sent me a photo of the marcher and his inciteful placard, but didn’t want to be identified in any way.
You’ll know why in a moment.
“Justice Please,” the top line of the poster read. “Before we see a lot of new Larry Davis[es],” the message threatened. “1986 6 cops killed,” the banner ended ominously. It was underlined in red marker for bloody emphasis.'

'Something about the current state of America has been causing far more disturbed people than before to act out their illness by threatening, or actually engaging in, political violence.
Based on what we know so far, the NYPD killings look like more like politically tinged schizophrenia. It is appropriate, however, to consider what was swirling outside Brinsley's head. To call his crime an assassination is to acknowledge that it appears to have had a political and not merely a personal context. That context wasn’t Islamic radicalism, Puerto Rican independence, or anarcho-syndicalism. It was the anti-police xenophobic populism that flourishes in the wet and angry climate of New York and Ferguson. Extremist shouters didn’t program Brinsley, in some mechanistic way, to shoot his girlfriend and the officers. But the protest marchers did make it appreciably more likely that a disturbed person like Brinsley would react, would be able to react, and would not be prevented from reacting, in the crazy way he did.'






Apologies Jacob Weisburg (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_big_idea/2011/01/the_tea_party_and_the_tucson_tragedy.html), Paul Krugman (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10krugman.html?_r=0), Michelle Malkin (http://michellemalkin.com/2014/12/11/the-cop-killing-cult-of-larry-davis/). Just too big a target to not shoot.;)

Julie
23 Dec 14,, 05:10
"It is important to note that black men commit nearly half of all murders in this country, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 per cent of the population.”

The analysis:

FactCheck has already looked at the statistics on killings by law enforcement officials. Though imperfect, the official figures suggest blacks are disproportionately likely to die at the hands of police.

Several people have left comments pointing out that this is not necessarily surprising or unfair, since blacks are also disproportionately likely to be involved in violent crime in the US, thereby putting themselves in the firing line.

It is true that around 13 per cent of Americans are black, according to the latest estimates from the US Census Bureau.

And yes, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides recorded in the data between 1980 and 2008. Only 45 per cent of the offenders were white. Homicide is a broader category than “murder” but let’s not split hairs.

Blacks were disproportionately likely to commit homicide and to be the victims. In 2008 the offending rate for blacks was seven times higher than for whites and the victimisation rate was six times higher.

As we found yesterday, 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks and 84 per cent of white victims were killed by whites.

Alternative statistics from the FBI are more up to date but include many crimes where the killer’s race is not recorded. These numbers tell a similar story.

In 2013, the FBI has black criminals carrying out 38 per cent of murders, compared to 31.1 per cent for whites. The offender’s race was “unknown” in 29.1 per cent of cases.

What about violent crime more generally? FBI arrest rates are one way into this. Over the last three years of data – 2011 to 2013 – 38.5 per cent of people arrested for murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault were black.

Clearly, these figures are problematic. We’re talking about arrests not convictions, and high black arrest rates could be taken as evidence that the police are racist.

But academics have noted that the proportion of black suspects arrested by the police tends to match closely the proportion of offenders identified as black by victims in the National Crime Victimization Survey.

This doesn’t support the idea that the police are unfairly discriminating against the black population when they make arrests.

So why are black offenders – and young black men in particular – over-represented in America’s crime statistics?

Judging from online comments, there is a wide spectrum of views on this, from unapologetic racism to militant refusal to blame the problem on anything but historic white racism.

Some criminologists think we could be simply confusing race for poverty or inequality: black people tend to offend more because they tend to be more disadvantaged, living in poorer urban areas with less access to public services, and so on.

If you control for deprivation, people of different races ought to be similarly predisposed to commit crime. Or that’s the theory, at least.

There is a lot of research in this area, but a lot of it is contradictory.

This study of violent crime in deprived neighborhoods in Cleveland, Ohio, found that reductions in poverty led to reductions in the crime rate in exactly the same way in predominantly black and white areas, suggesting poverty, not race, is the biggest factor.

Other studies get different results.

All sociologists have suffered from the same basic problem: finding urban white communities that are as disadvantaged as the poorest black neighborhoods, so that you can get a fair comparison.

Some thinkers play down the importance of poverty in favor of the “violent subculture theory”.

This is the idea that some black communities, for some reason, have developed cultural values that are more tolerant of crime and violence.

The verdict

There is evidence in the official police-recorded figures that black Americans are more likely to commit certain types of crime than people of other races.

While it would be naïve to suggest that there is no racism in the US criminal justice system, victim reports don’t support the idea that this is because of mass discrimination.

Higher poverty rates among various urban black communities might explain the difference in crime rates, although the evidence is mixed.

There are few simple answers and links between crime and race are likely to remain the subject of bitter argument.


FactCheck: do black Americans commit more crime? | The FactCheck Blog | The FactCheck Blog (http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime/19439)

Triple C
23 Dec 14,, 06:26
Pari, you would note that the Spokane study is set up to argue with half a dozen research studies by social psychologists that reached the opposite conclusion. The Correl study, for example, finds that police officers exhibit a "robust" racial bias in their shoot/no shoot experiments, though professionals do outperform better than the general populace. I recall one of my colleagues engaged in the latter field as a lab monkey (probably employed under Correl or his research collaborators) had made statements to that effect that criminologists and social psychologists are in vehement disagreement with regard to racial bias in police shootings.

None of those researchers allege police officers are raging racists; instead the argument is bias has a persistent presence in people's reflexes even though they take no stock in overtly racist ideologies.

lemontree
23 Dec 14,, 06:30
38794


The countries taken as a bench mark are not correct, as Japan, Britain and Germany have fairly strict gun laws compared to the US. With the availability of guns in the US the Police have to be always on the alert, as criminals have easy access to guns. Hence more shooting incidents.

However, in the case of India, the incidents from death by police shooting are very high, considering that we do not have easy access to guns.

Parihaka
23 Dec 14,, 08:05
Pari, you would note that the Spokane study is set up to argue with half a dozen research studies by social psychologists that reached the opposite conclusion. The Correl study, for example, finds that police officers exhibit a "robust" racial bias in their shoot/no shoot experiments, though professionals do outperform better than the general populace. I recall one of my colleagues engaged in the latter field as a lab monkey (probably employed under Correl or his research collaborators) had made statements to that effect that criminologists and social psychologists are in vehement disagreement with regard to racial bias in police shootings.

None of those researchers allege police officers are raging racists; instead the argument is bias has a persistent presence in people's reflexes even though they take no stock in overtly racist ideologies.
I'm well aware of that, I just can't see how an implicit bias, whether the social psychologists or the criminologists, can in any way, shape or form reinforce or justify a claim that black teens get shot 21 times as many as white teens by Police. Any police team across the country will shoot 21 black kids for every white kid? Really? As I said earlier, your police would have to be almost exclusively KKK, which of course they are not.
I therefore dismiss those numbers, just as criminologists do, and ascribe it's use to the current Democrat assault on police and the legal system.

tantalus
23 Dec 14,, 12:48
The countries taken as a bench mark are not correct, as Japan, Britain and Germany have fairly strict gun laws compared to the US. With the availability of guns in the US the Police have to be always on the alert, as criminals have easy access to guns. Hence more shooting incidents.

However, in the case of India, the incidents from death by police shooting are very high, considering that we do not have easy access to guns.
Logically that could account for a significant part of the difference.


I'm well aware of that, I just can't see how an implicit bias, whether the social psychologists or the criminologists, can in any way, shape or form reinforce or justify a claim that black teens get shot 21 times as many as white teens by Police. Any police team across the country will shoot 21 black kids for every white kid? Really? As I said earlier, your police would have to be almost exclusively KKK, which of course they are not.

At the very least. you have exhibited a major doubt over such a claim, and with some contributions by others have established that any analysis is complex and difficult to interpret due to the nature of the data.



I therefore dismiss those numbers, just as criminologists do, and ascribe it's use to the current Democrat assault on police and the legal system.
I am willing to dismiss them as well, having done a little research of my own. I agree that exaggerating discrimination is very dangerous to society. You posted up a lot of materials, from both sides, and it's difficult for me to exactly and definitely understand your position.

Do you believe there is any racial bias in the US policing or judicial system that requires measures to be taken?

Just to add, I believe that any racial bias, if existing, requires a disproportional response in favour of amelioration because the perception is that the problem is very great indeed, and being practical, that perception isn't likely to disappear by telling people their analysis is statistically unsound.

Without having ever looked at single study, or series of data, would in not be very surprising if there was no racial bias at all, given the history of racism against blacks in the US, the fact that blacks are more more likely to involved in crime because of there socioeconomic status, also a product of that same history, and the natural tendency towards discrimination in humanity.

troung
23 Dec 14,, 14:55
Break the police union. Something about a union to protect heavily armed government officials from scrutiny and secure six figure tax payer funded pensions which just sounds repulsive.

Triple C
23 Dec 14,, 15:03
"I'm well aware of that, I just can't see how an implicit bias, whether the social psychologists or the criminologists, can in any way, shape or form reinforce or justify a claim that black teens get shot 21 times as many as white teens by Police. Any police team across the country will shoot 21 black kids for every white kid? Really? As I said earlier, your police would have to be almost exclusively KKK, which of course they are not."

That's not what people are claiming. Biased threat perception is considered part of the problem, but there are additional structural factors such as the confluence of the war on drugs, disappearance of traditional jobs for inner-city blacks, urban planning which concentrates poverty, etc., and all of which have a synergistic impact on rate of black violent deaths. Criticism is concentrated on Law Enforcement because as an arm of the government they are more capable of change than other large-scale political, economic and cultural problems. Most of the research in fact suggest cops are less likely to be affected by implicit bias than ordinary citizens which is attributable to training.

zraver
23 Dec 14,, 16:45
Until we get good data tracking of police shootings and use of force incidents we will never know for sure since we don't know how many people police actually kill.

Troung- busting up the police unions that use milquetoast reprimands in place of judicial proceedings for felony offenses would be a great help. As would making cops carry personal liability insurance. Sure the department would pay, but as a bad cop wracked up lawsuits and settlements his premium would go up and the department could get rid of him or force him to pay his own premiums, either way he would get priced out of law enforcement.

Granted, given the 4 of every 10 cops is dirty* it would be a big boost to the unemployment numbers. But most of us wouldn't mind since the real policing is done by the good 60% anyway.

* 40% of spouses of police report being victims of domestic violence.

Parihaka
23 Dec 14,, 20:24
Do you believe there is any racial bias in the US policing or judicial system .....


Yes I do, I regard it as minor and a convenient scapegoat for the political/ruling classes. Any actions are easily covered by current training.

As to my own opinion, it aligns with Chuck Canterbury, head of the largest police organisation in the world. It's not a union you'll note.


Politicians have spent the months since the tragedy in Ferguson piously wringing their hands and bemoaning the lack of trust of police by the minority community. Mayors and Congressmen and Senators and professional racists from all sides have seized on the moment to advance their often self-serving opinions of what is wrong in America as a hyperventilating media nods knowingly and faithfully reports each and every word. Enough is enough.

While these politicians and their retinues ignore the decaying infrastructure of our cities, the substandard educational system, the nonexistent families, the poor nutrition, the lack of employment opportunities--all of which create a toxic environment which breeds crime--they focus with laser vision on every real or perceived mistake made by the cops fighting a running battle to keep the streets safe for our poorest and most disadvantaged citizens in our country's worst pockets.

Enough is enough. There's nothing wrong with the way cops do their jobs that won't be fixed when politicians suck it up and attack the problems that breed poverty and crime--but they're not going to do that. The media professes shock when we speak out--well, buckle them on America--you're going to hear a lot from our 325,000 members in the days and months ahead. Some of you may not like it, but you would do well to listen

tantalus
23 Dec 14,, 21:34
Yes I do, I regard it as minor and a convenient scapegoat for the political/ruling classes. Any actions are easily covered by current training.

As to my own opinion, it aligns with Chuck Canterbury, head of the largest police organisation in the world. It's not a union you'll note.

I agree that many others issues, including those listed by Canterbury are more important social issues, many of them contributing to the lesser issue of racial discrimination by police. I am guessing its an issue worth tackling, but its just guess, I would need the data to convince me. The perception is that it is a major issue, and that is significant in itself. Blaming solely the political/ruling classes on face value seems unconvincing. It seems more likely that most of the impetus stems from a critical mass of civilian perception and is propagated by the nature of the media, which never reports in proportion to the the severity of the problem.

troung
24 Dec 14,, 00:34
hey focus with laser vision on every real or perceived mistake made by the cops fighting a running battle to keep the streets safe for our poorest and most disadvantaged citizens in our country's worst pockets.

Like choking the life out of a man over sales taxes? Kept that street safe.


Enough is enough. There's nothing wrong with the way cops do their jobs that won't be fixed when politicians suck it up and attack the problems that breed poverty and crime--but they're not going to do that.

Choking someone to death over sales tax... well I guess that was tax money out of their pensions it was good to send a message...


The media professes shock when we speak out--well, buckle them on America--you're going to hear a lot from our 325,000 members in the days and months ahead. Some of you may not like it, but you would do well to listen

Through public sector unions at tax payer expense.


Mayors and Congressmen and Senators and professional racists from all sides have seized on the moment to advance their often self-serving opinions of what is wrong in America as a hyperventilating media nods knowingly and faithfully reports each and every word. Enough is enough.

Yeah those bastards protesting police violence, how dare they.

===========
Piece of pondscum sucking on the tax payers tit...

======
Something about organizations which exist to protect government agents who abuse US citizens and fleece the taxpayer for huge pensions - and then have the gall to be goddamn bitchy.

Parihaka
24 Dec 14,, 00:56
Of course, they should all be paid shit, if at all. Get rid of them and you can just hire private security from your own pocket when you think you need it. Good luck with that.

Bigfella
24 Dec 14,, 01:15
Do we have data comparing arrests for drug possession by race overlaid with drug usage patterns by race?

Parihaka
24 Dec 14,, 01:20
Do we have data comparing arrests for drug possession by race overlaid with drug usage patterns by race?
http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/us0309web_1.pdf
HRW claims to demonstrate that, haven't risked it myself

zraver
24 Dec 14,, 05:21
Of course, they should all be paid shit, if at all. Get rid of them and you can just hire private security from your own pocket when you think you need it. Good luck with that.

When was the last time you heard about cops solving a burglary? Hundreds of thousands of rape kits go untested... national the rate for solved murders is exceedingly low... but woe to anyone who does ten over the speed limit or sells a loose cigarette. Too many cops are revenue agents for the stare, professional extortionist, nothing more.

Bigfella
24 Dec 14,, 06:56
When was the last time you heard about cops solving a burglary? Hundreds of thousands of rape kits go untested... national the rate for solved murders is exceedingly low... but woe to anyone who does ten over the speed limit or sells a loose cigarette. Too many cops are revenue agents for the stare, professional extortionist, nothing more.

Don't necessarily agree with all the specifics here, but the 'war on drugs' soaks up a ridiculous amount of police time & resources. Can also be a nice little earner.

I think we had some stuff about that here a few years back including input from some former cops. I'll try to do some digging.

Parihaka
24 Dec 14,, 08:25
When was the last time you heard about cops solving a burglary? Hundreds of thousands of rape kits go untested... national the rate for solved murders is exceedingly low... but woe to anyone who does ten over the speed limit or sells a loose cigarette. Too many cops are revenue agents for the stare, professional extortionist, nothing more.

Then sack them, or reprioritise them. It is you, after all, who enables and tasks them.

zraver
24 Dec 14,, 16:42
Then sack them, or reprioritise them. It is you, after all, who enables and tasks them.

If you think American police are responsive to public pressure you've missed the entire debate. Powerful unions, property interests in employment, allies in the prosecutors office, personal immunity, internal action in lieu of prosecution (even for felonies).... They are a world unto themselves and they answer to no one, least of all us poor serfs who pay their wages.

troung
27 Dec 14,, 07:54
The money should be paid out of the pension fund - give them some skin in the game and not bill the serfs twice...
NYPD misconduct claims at record highs | Al Jazeera America (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/12/9/nypd-misconduct-claimsatalltimehighs.html)


NYPD misconduct claims at record highs
City statistics show claims against New York City police have never been higher or costlier
December 9, 2014 5:00AM ET
by Michael Keller @mhkeller

Complaints of alleged police wrongdoing in New York City have hit a record level of 5,601 — a 150 percent increase from 2006 — and when the claims were settled or went to trial, they have cost the city over $315 million from 2006 to 2012, according to latest figures released by the city.

The numbers reflect concerns spotlighted in recent days by rising public anger over incidents including the fatal police shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown on Aug. 9 in Ferguson, Missouri, and the police chokehold death of New York City resident Eric Garner in July. In both cases, grand juries recently declined to indict the police officers involved, triggering major nationwide demonstrations accusing police of excessive force and racism.

On average, New York City pays about $45 million a year to settle or pay plaintiffs who have won in court on police-related claims, which are defined as "alleged improper police conduct, such as false arrest or imprisonment, shooting of a suspect, excessive force, assault or failure to provide police protection." Before a Staten Island grand jury decided not to indict the officer who killed Garner, Garner's family said they planned to sue the city for $75 million in civil court.

In 2000, to help control rising costs from claims filed against the city's police force, the city comptroller recommended the New York Police Department incorporate payout information into its statistical crime-tracking program. Twelve years and repeated recommendations later, claims are at record levels, and the NYPD hasn’t developed any system for routinely tracking them by officer, offense or precinct.

The NYPD did not respond to a request for comment in time for publication.

Number of claims filed, by claim type, fiscal years 2006 to 2012


Number of claimsPolice actionCivil rightsDefective sidewalkCorrectionsMotor vehicleSchoolDefective roadwayUnknown claim typeMedical malpracticeCity propertyRecreationEmployee Uniformed ServicesTraffic control deviceHealth facilityAdmiralty20062007200820092010201120120k10k 2.5k5k7.5kHighcharts.com


Note: New York City fiscal years run from July 1 to June 30. For example, fiscal year 2012 is July 2011 to June 2012.
Source: NYC Office of the Comptroller, Annual Claims report.

Claims are not always proof of wrongdoing, said Joel Berger, a civil rights attorney who was a senior litigator with the city’s law department from 1988 to 1996. "But typically in a police misconduct case, once a lawyer decides to file it, that means the lawyer has investigated it and has come to the conclusion that it's sufficiently meritorious to spend time and resources on," he said. "The important thing is that the number of complaints skyrocketed over a five-year period. When you have that large an increase, it's got to tell you something."

"Police action" and claims against the NYPD are often cited in comptroller reports as areas "of concern" and consistently cost the city a large share of personal injury payouts along with civil rights claims, a category that includes claims of discrimination and alleged civil rights violations by law enforcement.

Dollar amount of settlements and judgments, by claim type, fiscal years 2006 to 2012


Settlement or judgment amountMedical malpracticeMotor vehicleCivil rightsPolice actionDefective sidewalkDefective roadwaySchoolsEmployee uniformed servicesRecreationHealth facilityAdmiraltyCity propertyCorrection facilityTraffic control device2006200720082009201020112012$0M$50M$100M$150 M$200MHighcharts.com


Note: New York City fiscal years run from July 1 to June 30. Year-over-year comparisons may be skewed by large settlements in one year, such as the $52 million recently paid to the Central Park 5, who were falsely convicted of a murder in 1989 and sued the city in 2003.
Source: NYC Office of the Comptroller, Annual Claims report.

The comptroller is still preparing the figures for fiscal year 2013, but Berger said the overall trend isn’t likely to go away. "There’s a huge backlog of cases in the city’s law department, and I still get cases of police overstepping their bounds," he said. "In 2014 narcotics cops in Brooklyn jumped a perfectly innocent woman and claimed she was doing a narcotic transaction. They discovered no transaction had taken place, but they didn’t like the woman’s attitude and arrested her for disorderly conduct. You see this stuff all the time."

These numbers show the roots of a frustration with police even before the high-profile cases like Garner's and Brown's, Berger said, and are evidence of policing practices that put residents at odds with police.

"For those of us who work in civil rights litigation, we saw the volume of our work was going up and the majority of them were low-level cases that don’t attract media attention," he said. "They weren’t people being beaten to a pulp or railroaded into false confessions. It was people being arrested because a cop didn’t like their attitude and wanted to run them through the system even though they knew the case would get thrown out."

Number of settlements and judgments by Claim type, Fiscal Years 2006 to 2012


No. of settlements and judgementsPolice actionCivil rightsDefective sidewalkMotor vehicleSchoolDefective roadwayCorrection facilityMedical malpracticeMedical malpracticeRecreationEmployee Uniformed ServicesEmployee Uniformed ServicesCity propertyAdmiraltyTraffic control devices2006200720082009201020112012050010001500200 0Highcharts.com


Note: New York City fiscal years run from July 1 to June 30. For example, fiscal year 2012 is July 2011 to June 2012.
Source: NYC Office of the Comptroller, Annual Claims report.

One proposal in the comptroller’s report is to create a task force with representatives from various civil groups to identify precincts that have seen repeated claims and seek remedies. Similarly, tracking which officers have claims repeatedly filed against them and the outcome of these claims would let the NYPD better address long-term trends.

"I've had cases of someone arrested for a controlled substance violation when he had in his pocket one pill of Motrin. I’ve had someone arrested for public urination when he was on dialysis and couldn’t urinate. You couldn’t make this stuff up," Berger said. “It's a terrible epidemic and indicative of the stuff that’s going on that is causing so much public outrage at the moment. Notwithstanding the statements of Mayor [Bill] de Blasio and Police Commissioner [William] Bratton to the contrary, the city's law department continues to fight these cases fiercely."

zraver
27 Dec 14,, 17:26
The money should be paid out of the pension fund - give them some skin in the game and not bill the serfs twice...
NYPD misconduct claims at record highs | Al Jazeera America (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/12/9/nypd-misconduct-claimsatalltimehighs.html)

You know the unions will never allow public servants to have skin in the game or be held to account.

troung
27 Dec 14,, 19:25
You know the unions will never allow public servants to have skin in the game or be held to account.

Talk like that emboldens criminals

zraver
27 Dec 14,, 20:13
Talk like that emboldens criminals

I'm sure my support of liberty and calls for accountability probably have me on watch lists even though I believe in peaceful reform... C'est la vie.

bonehead
28 Dec 14,, 04:17
Break the police union. Something about a union to protect heavily armed government officials from scrutiny and secure six figure tax payer funded pensions which just sounds repulsive.

For the most part they cops are only enforcing the chain of command and following orders. The cops in NYC are however causing the mayor some major heartburn the last few days. In many cases the heat directed to the unions is misguided. It is the higher ups is where the bulk of corruption lays as these are the people making the rules…mostly to protect themselves. Cops are always out there risking themselves, lives and injuries, for the public good. They see and deal with the worst of humanity so the rest of us don't have to. The ones that keep their ducks in a row and survive to retire earned that pension.

bonehead
28 Dec 14,, 04:23
pari,



even without invoking the race card, there's simply a problem with the simple numbers when it comes to US police turning to what should be a last resort.

38794

moreover, as the article you posted points out, police dept reporting shows that black males are 21x more likely to be shot than white males.

one doesn't need to be a full-on race-baiter like Sharpton to note that something is wrong here, and that this ultimately undermines minority trust in the police, which is bad for -everyone-.

The better question is how many of those shootings was justified. There is no question that the U.S. has a lot more violent criminals than most countries. That is what happens when you allow a lucrative drug trade and gangs to run amuck.

bonehead
28 Dec 14,, 04:30
I see now he had at least 19 charges in Georgia alone, some for gun possession. The shooter's mother states that he had mental issues and even she was scared of him. With THAT kind of rap sheet, how was this guy even still walking the streets, and with a gun? The shooter had a history of doing bad things for attention. NY attracted him like a magnet.


"how was this guy even still walking the streets"


That July is the $64,000 question. We know that only a very small part of the population accounts for a huge share of the crime yet this guy and more like him are released to make more victims each and every day. When you call the libs for it they blink and say that if there were no guns he would be a model citizen. Therefore guns are the problem.

zraver
28 Dec 14,, 04:32
The better question is how many of those shootings was justified. There is no question that the U.S. has a lot more violent criminals than most countries. That is what happens when you allow a lucrative drug trade and gangs to run amuck.

Which goes back to the problem of powerful unions, friendly DA's, property interests in employment, personal immunity, tesyilying, Brady Cops and other factors that all serve as a bar to effective prosecution.

tuna
29 Dec 14,, 16:28
I hate to see this issue devolve into a race issue, which it seems to have become nationally.

I'm a white, middle aged, male, 25+ years of military service, churchgoing, tax paying citizen. I see problems with the police.

The thuggery was most manifest when Massachusetts started to change the rules that a cop needs to be at road construction (at overtime pay) instead of a flagman, like 49 other states. They used the "public safety" argument, and when they lost, the cops protested, and created unsafe conditions by ignoring the flagman.

I no longer consider the police to be my friend, nor do I think that they care. I'm just another one of "them", in the "Us, vs. Them" game.

bfng3569
29 Dec 14,, 16:54
I hate to see this issue devolve into a race issue, which it seems to have become nationally.

I'm a white, middle aged, male, 25+ years of military service, churchgoing, tax paying citizen. I see problems with the police.

The thuggery was most manifest when Massachusetts started to change the rules that a cop needs to be at road construction (at overtime pay) instead of a flagman, like 49 other states. They used the "public safety" argument, and when they lost, the cops protested, and created unsafe conditions by ignoring the flagman.

I no longer consider the police to be my friend, nor do I think that they care. I'm just another one of "them", in the "Us, vs. Them" game.

I'm not sure if this is serious or just complete sarcasm with the term 'thuggery'?

The attempt to change the rules to require a cop instead of a flagman was union and cash related (like many other things in MA).

how does this equate to 'thuggery'?

tuna
29 Dec 14,, 17:10
It already was required to have a cop, flagmen in Mass have only been legal, and only in certain situations, for the past 5 years or so.

The claim was that a cop is required for public safety as no one would follow the directions of a flagman. To "prove this point", one of the first flagmen working a construction job was harassed and instructions ignored by off duty cops. Complaints about the behavoir were ignored by those of their fellow officers on duty. That, to me, is thuggery. When the mob does it, it is a crime, when the cops do it, it's for public safety?

And yes - it is all about the union and cash, not that the cops will ever admit that.

As for the claim that 40% are dirty based on domestic violence, I'd say that number is way low. Those who cover for dirty cops under the "Thin Blue Line" excuse are just as bad as those who foul the public image of the police. Unless the police clean thier own house, they will won't regain the trust of the public.

omon
29 Dec 14,, 18:16
Those who cover for dirty cops under the "Thin Blue Line" excuse are just as bad as those who foul the public image of the police. Unless the police clean thier own house, they will won't regain the trust of the public.

Establishment hates mutiny from within, very much so. No cops will come forward, when some are, they are punished severely.

Officer Fired For Interrupting Another Officer’s Choking Of Suspect.

former Buffalo, New York police officer, who was fired after she stopped another officer from choking a man, is now fighting for her pension eight years later.
On Nov. 1, 2006, Cariol Horne responded to a call made by another officer to assist with an arrest. When Horne arrived, she discovered then-officer Gregory Kwiatkowski assaulting Neal Mack, who was being arrested for attacking his girlfriend, WKBW reported.

Gregory Kwiatkowski turned Neal Mack around and started choking him. So then I’m like, ‘Greg! You’re choking him,’ because I thought whatever happened in the house he was still upset about, so when he didn’t stop choking him, I just grabbed his arm from around Neal Mack’s neck,” said Horne.
After Horne grabbed his arm, Kwiatkowski punched her in the face, Horne says. She then attempted to defend herself, but other officers restrained her, causing injury to her shoulder. She says the punch was so hard that she was later forced to get her bridge replaced.

Horne lost her pension because of the incident. Though she has filed several appeals, she continues not to receive any payments for her 19 years as a police officer. She now works as a truck driver to feed her five children.

Officer Fired For Interrupting Another Officer's Choking Of Suspect - Page 2 of 2 - UPTOWN Magazine (http://uptownmagazine.com/2014/12/officer-cariol-horne-fired-for-interrupting-another-officers-choking-of-suspect/2/)

I’m pretty sure she would not be getting her pension back.

tuna
29 Dec 14,, 18:46
I think it is the truth, and not just me being cynical when I say that it is the minority of officers like Ms Horne that give all police a good name.

Firestorm
29 Dec 14,, 18:51
Don't necessarily agree with all the specifics here, but the 'war on drugs' soaks up a ridiculous amount of police time & resources. Can also be a nice little earner.

More than a little nice, thanks to Civil Asset Forfeiture. There are so many horror stories (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/tim-walberg-an-end-to-the-abuse-of-civil-forfeiture/2014/09/04/e7b9d07a-3395-11e4-9e92-0899b306bbea_story.html) about that practice that it is clear that it's just a euphemism for State Sanctioned Robbery.

astralis
29 Dec 14,, 19:29
tuna,


I hate to see this issue devolve into a race issue, which it seems to have become nationally.

the problem is that it's both a straight "policing" issue as well as a race issue. there's no doubt that there's a lot of police abuses coming to a head-- among them, police becoming a revenue pull for the state and profiling-- but there's also no denying that minorities and the poor are hit out of proportion.

for instance, just from the news of this morning:

Ferguson Police Spokesperson Suspended for 'Pile of Trash' Comment (http://time.com/3648187/ferguson-spokesperson-police-pile-of-trash/)

speaks to both a lack of professionalism and respect for the community the police spokesman was supposed to be serving...and can you doubt there's a racial factor involved?

zraver
29 Dec 14,, 23:08
Anyone who follows the Freethoughtproject knows that police abuse is a common rather than uncommon problem. Too many cases of sexual assault, beating people who are already cuffed, shooting pets, throwing grenades in to crib with babies... Whats todays story... a cop hit and kills a 10yo with his car. Police say the cop was responding to a call but wasn't running lights and sirens and witnesses say he was speeding... Anyone want to give odds no charges will be filed. Or lets talk about the failure to indict a trigger happy cop who gunned down John Crawford, the cop that called a dog over to him so he could shoot it, or the PBA telling NYPD cops to ignore orders and not enforce the law except for felonies to make life difficult for the mayor (blue coup). 86% of Americans want police video recorded... that is an amazing number. Not that it will matter with cops leaving cameras off (recent Berkerley MO) shooting, friendly prosecutors and all the other protections they enjoy but it shows that the gulf between the police and the public is massive. The police are no longer wolf hunters, they are the wolves.

troung
30 Dec 14,, 01:27
hey see and deal with the worst of humanity so the rest of us don't have to. The ones that keep their ducks in a row and survive to retire earned that pension.

These are not B-17 tail gunners, sorry.

Teen's fury after police chief escapes prosecution for saying 'he would drop underage drinking charge*if she posed for naked photos in station basement' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889475/Teen-s-fury-police-chief-escapes-prosecution-saying-drop-underage-drinking-charge-posed-naked-photos-station-basement.html)


A teenager who was allegedly told by a police chief that an underage drinking charge would be dropped if she posed for naked photos in the station's basement has expressed her anger that he has escaped prosecution.
....

A month later Seastrand resigned as the New London police chief in April.

Court documents say the town's insurance provider paid $70,000 to Janelle on behalf of the town and Seastrand.

The attorney general's office said the allegations were disturbing, but did not rise to the level of criminal conduct.

State prosecutors said Seastrand's actions were 'abhorrent behavior and unacceptable behavior for anyone in that type of a position,' but did not file criminal charges against him.

Seastrand has been prohibited from ever serving as a law enforcement officer again.

The Valley News reports that the Seastrand did not admit any wrongdoing as part of the settlement.

Westfall did not return to college in 2013 and transferred to a new college this year.

Read more: Teen's fury after police chief escapes prosecution for saying 'he would drop underage drinking charge*if she posed for naked photos in station basement' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889475/Teen-s-fury-police-chief-escapes-prosecution-saying-drop-underage-drinking-charge-posed-naked-photos-station-basement.html#ixzz3NKv5kL1t)
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

zraver
30 Dec 14,, 01:47
From 1999-2014 the NYPD shot and killed 179 people, only 3 cops were indicted, only 1 convicted (for shooting an innocent bystander 4 times) and none ever spent a day in jail. 23 of the dead were unarmed and 86% of the dead were black or hispanic.

zraver
30 Dec 14,, 01:50
On the good news front, here locally, former Deputy Josh George was sentenced to 12 years in prison for internet stalking of a child.

Parihaka
30 Dec 14,, 16:57
Never mind y'all, cheer up, despite having the same number of cops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_police_officers) per head of population as New Zealand, seemingly you're still managing to kill them (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1169077-report-gun-deaths-of-officers-jump-56-percent/) at far higher rates than we are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_police_officers_killed_in_the_ line_of_duty#Killed_by_criminal_act).

Parihaka
30 Dec 14,, 18:33
Establishment hates mutiny from within, very much so. No cops will come forward, when some are, they are punished severely.

Officer Fired For Interrupting Another Officer’s Choking Of Suspect.

former Buffalo, New York police officer, who was fired after she stopped another officer from choking a man, is now fighting for her pension eight years later.
On Nov. 1, 2006, Cariol Horne responded to a call made by another officer to assist with an arrest. When Horne arrived, she discovered then-officer Gregory Kwiatkowski assaulting Neal Mack, who was being arrested for attacking his girlfriend, WKBW reported.

Gregory Kwiatkowski turned Neal Mack around and started choking him. So then I’m like, ‘Greg! You’re choking him,’ because I thought whatever happened in the house he was still upset about, so when he didn’t stop choking him, I just grabbed his arm from around Neal Mack’s neck,” said Horne.
After Horne grabbed his arm, Kwiatkowski punched her in the face, Horne says. She then attempted to defend herself, but other officers restrained her, causing injury to her shoulder. She says the punch was so hard that she was later forced to get her bridge replaced.

Horne lost her pension because of the incident. Though she has filed several appeals, she continues not to receive any payments for her 19 years as a police officer. She now works as a truck driver to feed her five children.

Officer Fired For Interrupting Another Officer's Choking Of Suspect - Page 2 of 2 - UPTOWN Magazine (http://uptownmagazine.com/2014/12/officer-cariol-horne-fired-for-interrupting-another-officers-choking-of-suspect/2/)

I’m pretty sure she would not be getting her pension back.

Hmmm
Horne's actions criticized in report Fired police officer called unprofessional - City & Region - The Buffalo News (http://www.buffalonews.com/article/20080510/CITYANDREGION/305109980)
Police Lieutenant Vindicated | wgrz.com (http://www.wgrz.com/news/article/109161/13/Police-Lieutenant-Vindicated)
and finally a summary and findings of her claims against fellow officers and employer.
https://casetext.com/case/horne-v-buffalo-police-benevolent-association
Interesting how the narrative changes over time.

zraver
31 Dec 14,, 00:41
Never mind y'all, cheer up, despite having the same number of cops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_police_officers) per head of population as New Zealand, seemingly you're still managing to kill them (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1169077-report-gun-deaths-of-officers-jump-56-percent/) at far higher rates than we are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_police_officers_killed_in_the_ line_of_duty#Killed_by_criminal_act).

Based on the data for 2014 ytd. 2 cops killed by accidental gunfire from other cops, there are 809,000 police. Chance of a cop killing a fellow cop .0002% During the same time 47 cops were killed by citizens (46 charged as felony, one ruled justified) and there are 317,000,000 citizens. Chance of a cop getting shot by a private sector fire arm .00001%. Cops are an order of magnitude more dangerous to other cops than citizens.

troung
31 Dec 14,, 02:27
A bunch of unionized revenue collectors throwing a public temper tantrum. A shame the effort won't be taken to bust this union.


Arrests plummet 66% with NYPD in virtual work stoppage

By Larry Celona, Shawn Cohen and Bruce Golding

December 29, 2014 | 11:30pm
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Arrests plummet 66% with NYPD in virtual work stoppage
Arrests plummet 66% with NYPD in virtual work stoppage | New York Post (http://nypost.com/2014/12/29/arrests-plummet-following-execution-of-two-cops/)
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It’s not a slowdown — it’s a virtual work stoppage.

NYPD traffic tickets and summonses for minor offenses have dropped off by a staggering 94 percent following the execution of two cops — as officers feel betrayed by the mayor and fear for their safety, The Post has learned.

The dramatic drop comes as Police Commissioner Bill Bratton and Mayor Bill de Blasio plan to hold an emergency summit on Tuesday with the heads of the five police unions to try to close the widening rift between cops and the administration.

The unprecedented meeting is being held at the new Police Academy in Queens at 2 p.m., sources said.

Angry union leaders have ordered drastic measures for their members since the Dec. 20 assassination of two NYPD cops in a patrol car, including that two units respond to every call.

It has helped contribute to a nose dive in low-level policing, with overall arrests down 66 percent for the week starting Dec. 22 compared with the same period in 2013, stats show.

Citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent, from 10,069 to 587, during that time frame.

Summonses for low-level offenses like public drinking and urination also plunged 94 percent — from 4,831 to 300.

Even parking violations are way down, dropping by 92 percent, from 14,699 to 1,241.

Drug arrests by cops assigned to the NYPD’s Organized Crime Control Bureau — which are part of the overall number — dropped by 84 percent, from 382 to 63.
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Rafael Ramos and Wenjian LiuPhoto: Getty Images

The Post obtained the numbers hours after revealing that cops were turning a blind eye to some minor crimes and making arrests only “when they have to” since the execution-style shootings of Officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu.
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Statistics obtained by The Post show a dramatic drop in NYPD activity between Dec. 22 — the first weekday after the double cop assassination — and Sunday, compared with the same period last year.

Police sources said Monday that safety concerns were the main reason for the dropoff in police activity, but added that some cops were mounting an undeclared slowdown in protest of de Blasio’s response to the non-indictment in the police chokehold death of Eric Garner.

“The call last week from the PBA is what started it, but this has been simmering for a long time,” one source said.

“This is not a slowdown for slowdown’s sake. Cops are concerned, after the reaction from City Hall on the Garner case, about de Blasio not backing them.”

The Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association has warned its members to put their safety first and not make arrests “unless absolutely necessary.”

Sergeants Benevolent Association President Ed Mullins told The Post he’s glad de Blasio is meeting with the unions, but worries that it’s just a publicity stunt.

“I’m disappointed in the issuance of a press release announcing the meeting, which now raises concerns of sincerity,” he said.

“Is this about politics or is it about working through problems?”

Additional reporting by Yoav Gonen


The NYPD Is an Embarrassment to the City of New York
280,836

The NYPD Is an Embarrassment to the City of New York

A ceremony at Madison Square Garden yesterday morning marked the graduation of 884 new officers into the New York Police Department. When Mayor Bill de Blasio took the podium to address the graduating class, praising them for their courage and determination, he was greeted like an unpopular high school principal: with boos, jeers, and the turning of backs. When he talked about the officers facing "problems [they] don't create," someone in the audience called back: "You created them!"

Don't blame any incoming officers for the outbreak, however—they were only mimicking the hysterical fits their elders have been throwing in public for the past month. Two days earlier, at the funeral of officer Rafael Ramos, uniformed members of the force turned around en masse when de Blasio began to deliver his eulogy. (What other group comes to mind when you think about protests at funerals?) A week before, officers had turned their backs when de Blasio entered One Police Plaza after the shocking and senseless killing of Ramos and his partner, Wenjian Liu.
NYPD Turn Backs to de Blasio at Slain Officer's Funeral

According to multiple sources, hundreds of NYPD officers turned their backs to Mayor Bill de Blasio … Read more

Those symbolic displays of contempt were intended to demonstrate the department's lack of faith in its democratically elected leader. What they have communicated instead is that the New York Police Department is too childish and entitled to deserve its privileged status, and too aggrieved and resentful to be called "New York's Finest." The New York Police Department is an embarrassment to the city of New York.

After the non-indictment of Daniel Pantaleo, the officer who killed unarmed Staten Island man Eric Garner, the department has embarked on an apparent mission to make itself look as juvenile as possible. In addition to the turned backs, the union representing NYPD officers recently pushed a petition to bar the mayor from attending cops' funerals, then all but instructed officers to participate in a work stoppage.

Why? Because de Blasio had the temerity to admit in public that his son is at a higher risk of being killed by the NYPD because his son is black. Because de Blasio said out loud, as mayor of New York city, what American parents of black and Latino children have said in private for decades. (There was also an incomprehensible dustup about de Blasio's use of the word "allegedly.")
How Mayor de Blasio Warned His Own Son About His Police Force

During a speech about a Staten Island grand jury's failure to indict NYPD officer Daniel… Read more

Four days before Christmas, a man named Ismaayil Brinsley grabbed a handgun, shot his girlfriend, took a bus to New York City, and murdered Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos while they were sitting in their car on a corner in Bed Stuy. Shortly thereafter, Brinsley fled into the Myrtle-Willoughby G Train station and committed suicide. Brinsley had made his intentions clear in an Instagram post earlier that day: He was going to kill some New York City cops, and he was going to do so because of the police killings of Eric Garner and Michael Brown.

It's hard to imagine something that could have changed the dynamic of the ongoing popular protests against police brutality more: Two men lost their lives. Two families had their husbands, fathers, and sons torn from them. Thousands of NYPD cops lost their colleagues. The tragedy was an immediate and clarifying humanization of a profession whose incompetents and villains had dominated the news.

But if the deaths of Liu and Ramos gave the police department a moment to solemnly reflect and an opportunity to reconnect with a citizenry it had alienated with abuse and violence, they were squandered within only a few hours, when Patrick Lynch, the head of the police department's largest union, told reporters that there was "blood on the hands" of the mayor and protesters. The willfully ignorant dolchstosslegende of de Blasio's culpability in the murders was ridiculous to anyone with even passing understanding of the story: Ismaayil Brinsley allegedly shot and wounded his girlfriend before the murder-suicide; he'd had a long list of past weapons and robbery charges; he was obviously sick and hurting.

And so while Lynch brayed, the rest of the city kept moving. De Blasio, recognizing the gravity of the moment, called for a temporary halt to the public protests that have filled streets around the city all month. Protesters declined to heed de Blasio's call, and returned to the streets a few nights later, some singing "This Little Light of Mine" and paying their respects at an impromptu memorial for officers Liu and Ramos. In a tremendous showing of grace, Eric Garner's daughter Emerald visited the memorial, telling reporters, "I just had to come out and let their family know that we stand with them, and I'm going to send my prayers and condolences to all the families who are suffering."
Eric Garner's Daughter Visited the Slain NYPD Officers' Memorial Today

Earlier today, Eric Garner's daughter visited the memorial for Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos,… Read more

Not moving: The cops. Days before the murders, Lynch proudly said at a police union meeting that officers should respond to gentle criticism from the mayor and demonstrators by deliberately slowing down their patrols: "We're going to take that book, their rules and we're going to protect ourselves because they won't. We will do it the way they want us to do it. We will do it with their stupid rules, even the ones that don't work." Another PBA spokesman denied that Lynch was calling for a slowdown, but the union chief's language is clear enough.
New York's Law Enforcement Unions Are Filled With Pathetic Crybabies

Patrick Lynch, chairman of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association and head spokesbaby for the… Read more

That apparent slippage in enforcement is addressed in a pair of New York Post articles published this week. According to the emphatically pro-cop tabloid, since December 22, tickets and minor summonses are down 94 percent and overall arrests down 66 percent compared to the same period last year. But instead of framing the lack of action in terms of Lynch's raging ego, the Post and its sources posit that the recent unrest and the Liu-Ramos murder have left cops feeling afraid of being hurt on the job.

In truth, it's probably a little bit of both. Whether you're a good cop or a bad cop, waking up and starting your patrol in a city where two of your colleagues were killed on the job and where throngs of people express their displeasure with you every single night is surely a source of enormous anxiety and discomfort, and rightfully so.

But fearful as it may be, this is the job the cops signed up for: to protect and serve, as the motto on the side of every squad car in New York says, with courtesy, professionalism, and respect. This is why the angle that Lynch's vituperative rhetoric is really about a union contract dispute is so unconvincing. Despite what the NYPD would have you believe, a police officer is not an oppressed minority, but a special, protected class of person—just look at what happened to Daniel Pantaleo after he killed a man on video for clear evidence of that. And if the pressures of being a police officer ever become too great, cops are welcome to relieve themselves of that special status by turning in their guns and badges and quitting the force.

Eric Garner wasn't so privileged. When the pressures of being a black man in a racist police state became too great for him to bear, he didn't have the luxury of quitting. The greatest tool at his disposal in the moments before his death was his voice, and he used it. "I'm tired of it! This stops today," he pled with officers as they questioned him about allegedly selling a single loose cigarette. "Please, just leave me alone." For that simple request, he was executed in public without a trial.

This is the truth that black and Latino and queer and otherwise disenfranchised New Yorkers have known for decades, if not centuries: The NYPD has never been "New York's Finest." The life-threatening danger that New York's police department poses to its citizens of color is so clear, so well-tread, that discussing it here would be tiresome if it wasn't so necessary and so agonizing. This year, there was Eric Garner, the unarmed father of six who was choked to death by a cop with an alleged history of aggressive misconduct toward black men, and whose death went completely unprosecuted. There was also Akai Gurley, declared "a total innocent" by NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton, but only after he was shot and killed by a rookie cop in the hallway of his own apartment building; Denise Stewart, dragged nearly naked from her home by a dozen cops who mistakenly knocked on her door after receiving a 911 call from another unit; Rosan Miller, given a mercifully nonfatal chokehold for grilling up food on the sidewalk in front of her house (this is what mercy toward black people looks like from the NYPD: a chokehold that doesn't kill you). Last year, there was Kimani Gray, shot dead in the street at 16 years old, and before that, Tamon Robinson, Shereese Francis, Ramarley Graham, Alberta Spruill, Amadou Diallo. The list goes on and horribly on.

But the world is changing. Stop-and-frisk has slowed, if not entirely ended. Thanks to collective action in the wake of Garner's death, outcry over the NYPD's brutality and recklessness became too loud for the department or the city or its white establishment to ignore this year. Mayor de Blasio's experience raising a son at high risk of NYPD killing makes him a compassionate and impassioned, if not always effective, advocate for change. His administration, the incisive editorials in the New York Times and the New York Daily News, and, most of all, the thrilling sight of people taking to the streets to demand justice have made New York feel like the city it wants to be—the greatest city in the world.

The infantile response from the NYPD and the unions that represent it is not worthy of it. It is hardly worthy of a schoolyard bully who can't believe he's finally been called on his bullshit.

Illustration by Jim Cooke
336 669Reply
The NYPD Is an Embarrassment to the City of New York (http://gawker.com/the-nypd-is-an-embarrassment-to-the-city-of-new-york-1676173181)

Lest we forget

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/09/17/nyregion/officers-rally-and-dinkins-is-their-target.html

Thousands of off-duty police officers thronged around City Hall yesterday, swarming through police barricades to rally on the steps of the hall and blocking traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge for nearly an hour in the most unruly and angry police demonstration in recent memory.

The 300 uniformed officers who were supposed to control the crowd did little or nothing to stop the protesters from jumping barricades, tramping on automobiles, mobbing the steps of City Hall or taking over the bridge. In some cases, the on-duty officers encouraged the protesters.

While the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association had called the rally to protest Mayor David N. Dinkins's proposal to create an independent civilian agency that would look into police misconduct, the huge turnout -- estimated by the Police Department at 10,000 protesters -- and the harsh emotional pitch reflected widespread anger among rank-and-file officers toward the Mayor for his handling of riots against the police in Washington Heights last July, his refusal to give them semiautomatic weapons and his appointment of an outside panel to investigate corruption....
During most of that time, there were no uniformed officers on the bridge, though four officers on scooters arrived shortly after noon. They did virtually nothing to control the crowd. At one point, a New York Times photographer who was taking pictures was surrounded by demonstrators, punched in the back and shoved. A police lieutenant told the photographer, Keith Meyers, that he should leave the bridge. "I can't protect you up here," the officer said. A New York Times reporter, Alan Finder, was also kicked in the stomach.

tuna
31 Dec 14,, 04:35
Wow, most people get gired for blatantly not doing their jobs.

zraver
31 Dec 14,, 05:12
Wow, most people get gired for blatantly not doing their jobs.

Most people don't have a combination of contract, union and property interest in employment.

Officer of Engineers
31 Dec 14,, 05:57
Sorry, Jason

Doesn't even start to make sense. If this is an Empire as you suggest, then the junior guys has to do everything by the book. Yeah, they will be protected but that does not give them right to be emperor of the block. They will be hung out to dry (as many do) if they don't obey the rules and the rule is to uphold the law.

That means traffic tickets, arrests, the mundane stuff that makes life liveable in any city. The last thing any police force wants is private security firms taking over their jobs as in many rich neighbourhoods. That means that they want the kid having the door banged down to call the cops instead of the local crime lord that his mother is paying for protection.

Bigfella
31 Dec 14,, 07:41
Never mind y'all, cheer up, despite having the same number of cops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_police_officers) per head of population as New Zealand, seemingly you're still managing to kill them (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1169077-report-gun-deaths-of-officers-jump-56-percent/) at far higher rates than we are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_police_officers_killed_in_the_ line_of_duty#Killed_by_criminal_act).

The high price of freedom from tyranny I guess.

Parihaka
31 Dec 14,, 14:02
The high price of freedom from tyranny I guess.

What, that we don't get to kill our cops as frequently as they do? :biggrin:

zraver
31 Dec 14,, 22:50
Sorry, Jason

Doesn't even start to make sense. If this is an Empire as you suggest, then the junior guys has to do everything by the book. Yeah, they will be protected but that does not give them right to be emperor of the block. They will be hung out to dry (as many do) if they don't obey the rules and the rule is to uphold the law.

That means traffic tickets, arrests, the mundane stuff that makes life liveable in any city. The last thing any police force wants is private security firms taking over their jobs as in many rich neighbourhoods. That means that they want the kid having the door banged down to call the cops instead of the local crime lord that his mother is paying for protection.

Sir, agree to disagree. Police in the US are out of control and all untouchable. Someone needs to police the police.

tuna
31 Dec 14,, 23:32
Agreed. That's why it shouldn't be a race issue, but strictly a police abuse issue. Making it a race thing takes people like me out of the dialogue and leaves it in the hands of those like Sharpton, who see everything as racially motivated.

troung
01 Jan 15,, 01:35
Hard to say its a few bad apples when they all seem in on playing union thugs, with guns. Armed thugs taking orders from their union bosses and showing contempt for the elected officials and the tax payers.

The guys who turned their backs and booed should be on the unemployment line.


The NYPD’s Revolt Is A Direct Threat To Democracy
Ben Domenech
By Ben Domenech
December 31, 2014
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Since the moment when police officers turned their backs in protest on New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio, we’ve seen the type of escalating activity in the city which would be more recognizable as the preview to a messy Latin American coup d’etat. The latest is a form of purposeful sabotage on the part of the NYPD, which is now actively shirking its duty to enforce the law. According to the New York Post, traffic tickets and summonses have plummeted by 94 percent, and overall arrests are down 66 percent for the week compared to the same period last year. Here’s the data comparisons from this year to 2013:

Citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent, from 10,069 to 587, during that time frame. Summonses for low-level offenses like public drinking and urination also plunged 94 percent — from 4,831 to 300. Even parking violations are way down, dropping by 92 percent, from 14,699 to 1,241. Drug arrests by cops assigned to the NYPD’s Organized Crime Control Bureau — which are part of the overall number — dropped by 84 percent, from 382 to 63.

Considering how much New York, as with many of our other major cities, has leaned toward over-policing, this isn’t all a bad thing – I’m not going to get worked up about cops handing out fewer parking violations. But as a whole, this represents a completely irresponsible rejection of the duty to enforce the law. Yesterday, speaking to a graduating class of more than 800 new officers at Madison Square Garden, de Blasio was booed and heckled as he struggled to extend an oratorical olive branch. De Blasio told the gathering of new cops “you will confront all the problems that plague our society, problems that you didn’t create” – in response, a heckler jeered “You created them!” People in the audience applauded and cheered as a de Blasio tried to recover with even more voluminous praise for the force.

Supporters of the NYPD have pointed out throughout the back-turning that their officers feel upset at Mayor de Blasio and others, that they feel they are less safe because of the comments of politicians. This is one more example of one of the most irritating tendencies of unionized police forces today – a recurring demand that they receive the same attitude of respect for authority given to the United States military, without any of the responsibility and duty that comes with it. A poll last week found that a mere 15 percent of active duty service members approve of President Obama – understandable, considering his many policy decisions and a laundry list of questionable choices.

But is the American military turning their backs on the Commander in Chief? Showing contempt for him? Going AWOL with the endorsement of their superiors? Shirking their duty? Booing and jeering at him at a graduation ceremony? No. They, after all, are not unionized.

The real rise of frustration with police officers in America comes down to one thing: an enduring sense that the current law enforcement system is unfair. We have to abide by rules they do not. We are the civilians, as if they are not. When we go before a court, enduring bias assumes that police are responsible and honest, even if the evidence suggests otherwise. District attorneys have one method for grand juries with cops, and different methods for ones without cops. The problem is one of institutional disrespect for their own civic obligations. We have to obey the commands of officers, but they have no real desire to obey the commands of their own authorities, or the ultimate authority they serve – the people.

In retrospect, Mayor de Blasio should’ve responded to the backs turning by firing people immediately. The NYPD needed to be reminded that chain of command exists, and that they are not at the top of it. Instead, what New York City is experiencing now amounts to nothing less than open rebellion by the lone armed force under the worst kind of weakened junta, one led by a figure ideologically radical and personally weak, who has lost control of his bureaucracies and may soon be devoured by them.

Perhaps he can take a cue from a political leader of another time, who faced open revolt from a police force in another major city.


To Mr. Samuel Gompers President American Federation of Labor New York City, N.Y. Replying to your telegram, I have already refused to remove the Police Commissioner of Boston. I did not appoint him. He can assume no position which the courts would uphold except what the people have by the authority of their law vested in him. He speaks only with their voice. The right of the police of Boston to affiliate has always been questioned, never granted, is now prohibited. The suggestion of President Wilson to Washington does not apply to Boston. There the police have remained on duty. Here the Policemen's Union left their duty, an action which President Wilson characterized as a crime against civilization. Your assertion that the Commissioner was wrong cannot justify the wrong of leaving the city unguarded. That furnished the opportunity, the criminal element furnished the action. There is no right to strike against the public safety by anybody, anywhere, any time. You ask that the public safety again be placed in the hands of these same policemen while they continue in disobedience to the laws of Massachusetts and in their refusal to obey the orders of the Police Department. Nineteen men have been tried and removed. Others having abandoned their duty, their places have, under the law, been declared vacant on the opinion of the Attorney General. I can suggest no authority outside the courts to take further action. I wish to join and assist in taking a broad view of every situation. A grave responsibility rests on all of us. You can depend on me to support you in every legal action and sound policy. I am equally determined to defend the sovereignty of Massachusetts and to maintain the authority and jurisdiction over her public officers where it has been placed by the Constitution and law of her people. Calvin Coolidge Governor of Massachusetts

I doubt that the Salvador Allende of Park Slope has the stomach for such a confrontation – but the reality is that the NYPD today is turning into an embarrassing neighborhood bully, and the only thing a bully understands is force. You wouldn’t want those broken windows to stay broke, would you?

Parihaka
01 Jan 15,, 04:56
So, question.
Are the NYPD allowed to strike?

zraver
01 Jan 15,, 05:29
So, question.
Are the NYPD allowed to strike?

NO

Taylor Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Law)

Triple C
01 Jan 15,, 05:40
In most states of the USA, no. I could have swore there is a SCOTUS ruling on this, but apparently I am wrong because in 14 states (as of 2001) cops can strike. Generally states legislate some classes of public employees as having a job too important to public good to be allowed to put down the tools and leave shop.

omon
05 Jan 15,, 18:13
nypd can do pretty much anything they want, who is there to stop them?

as for strike, they are on strike, they do not ticket\arrest for minor crimes, that otherwise would be bringing revenue to the city, that is pretty much a strike, as far as mayor concearned. it is mayor that nypd has problem with.

NYPD traffic tickets and summonses for minor offenses have dropped off by a staggering 94 percent following the execution of two cops — as officers feel betrayed by the mayor and fear for their safety, The Post has learned. (http://nypost.com/2014/12/29/arrests-plummet-following-execution-of-two-cops/)

Triple C
06 Jan 15,, 14:47
Q&A: An NYPD Officer?s Real Talk on Garner Case -- NYMag (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/12/qa-an-nypd-officers-real-talk-on-garner-case.html?mid=facebook_nymag)

Disgruntled cop talks to the press. I don't know if his views are merely anecdotal or representative of NYPD woes, but it's not a perspective I hear much. Interesting bits are in bold.

Excerpt:



[Q:]So you don’t think this is a race thing?
[A:]No, it’s not a race thing. It’s a Ray Kelly thing. That man singlehandedly ruined this department. When I came up as a rookie, you were assigned an older cop who had been around and knew what they were doing. We were taught that you catch more flies with honey. Basically, if you let the small things go — like the guy selling loosies or weed or whatever on the corner — then when the big shit happens, like homicide or burglary, those are the same guys who will tell you all about it. If they hate you, they won’t tell you shit.

[Q:]But this is happening everywhere. I mean, Ferguson — there have been so many of these cases for so long.
[A:]All I know is New York City. Nowadays, since Kelly’s Operation Impact, rookies are taught one thing: Write tickets, do searches, make money. They’ll have a quota they have to fill. They’re not supposed to, but they do. They come up not knowing their asses from their elbows. These rookies don’t understand how to let the small stuff go. They’ll be on your back for a bag of grass. So then when things happen, they overreact.

[Q:]Pantaleo came up during the Kelly years. You think he overreacted?
[A:]Yeah, I guess so. He could have just looked at that guy and seen he wasn’t going to get violent. They talk about racial profiling now, but the thing is, back when I came up, we were taught how to profile. We profiled criminal intent. You could look at a guy and see how he moved, what he was looking at, his behavior. You’d know the guys that were carrying and the ones who weren’t. And you knew the ones who weren’t coming in without a fight.

zraver
08 Jan 15,, 02:57
In the latest news.... Cops rammed holes into a home and killed a man over a DUI warrant, family left homeless when home is condemned. Cop escorting a woman to her home to collect her things freaked out at the sight of the family dog, tried to shoot it, ended up shooting the woman he was escorting in the chest killing her. Two different cops in two different locations ran over and killed juveniles. One cop was speeding without running light and struck a 10yo. The second was responding to a pedestrian v vehicle accident and didn't slow down on entering the scene striking the already struck (but alert and responsive victim) killing him instantly. Finnaly, one highly trained law enforcement officer drove off and left his Colt Commando AR-15 11.4 barrel full auto rifle on the trunk of his car, at some point it slid off and is now missing. Chances of charges being filed- still zero.

Monash
08 Jan 15,, 11:59
Z, lets see what the follow-up to each of these incident's is, since you found the original reports hopefully you can also find what the outcomes of at least some of them are. These outcomes should include criminal negligence charges where appropriate. (Can't comment on the dog one - e.g. a Rottweiler going for you is is one thing, a Maltese Terrier would be another). Apart from that Wiki indicates there are something like 780,000 Police Officers serving the in the US. It would be astounding with those kind of numbers if some 'inappropriate' members weren't recruited. For that matter I believe there are something like 850,000 EMS workers employed over there. Since they don't carry firearms or make arrests they don't have the chance to screw up as spectacularly or as often as Police do but that doesn't mean there aren't members of those professions who have made serious if not grossly negligent errors of judgement from time to time.They just don't get reported as much - and it's not as if their employers or colleagues are going to advertise their screw ups is it?

zraver
08 Jan 15,, 14:14
Z, lets see what the follow-up to each of these incident's is, since you found the original reports hopefully you can also find what the outcomes of at least some of them are. Hopefully they will include criminal negligence charges where appropriate. (Can't comment on the dog one - e.g. a Rottweiler going for you is is one thing, a Maltese Terrier would be another). Apart from that Wiki indicates there are something like 780,000 Police Officers serving the in the US. It would be astounding with those kind of numbers if some 'inappropriate' members weren't recruited. For that matter I believe there are something like 850,000 EMS workers employed over there. Since they don't carry firearms or make arrests they don't have the chance to screw up as spectacularly or as often as Police do but that doesn't mean there aren't members of those professions who have made serious if not grossly negligent errors of judgement from time to time.They just don't get reported as much - and it's not as if their employers or colleagues are going to advertise their screw ups is it?

I'll get my eyes looking for results but really, in the US the chance of police being prosecuted really is near zero. They have too many layers protections. Recently a cop was fired for tazing a 76 year old man who was already in cuffs... not charged just fired and free to get a job as a cop somewhere else.

tuna
08 Jan 15,, 14:25
The problem is that you'll look and look, and never see anything remotely close to charges that a civilian would face for the same offenses.

zraver
08 Jan 15,, 14:31
Other reports say the outside agency cops were called in after they heard a single shot... 61 hours later with no contact they rammed holes in the family home only to discover the suspect had killed himself shortly after the police arrived.... home condemned, mother and kids on the street in winter.... But hey, I'm sure the cops had a blast ramming holes in the house.

SWAT Team Demolishes Home To Arrest Man For DUI, Family Left Homeless | The Free Thought Project (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/swat-team-demolishes-home-arrest-man-dui-family-left-homeless/)

http://www.ithacajournal.com/story/news/public-safety/2015/01/06/cady-autopsy-report/21336929/

tuna
08 Jan 15,, 14:32
But as long as everyone goes home safe, that's the thing, right?

zraver
08 Jan 15,, 14:35
Heres the story of the woman shot in the chest by her police escort

Cop Trying to Kill the Family Dog, Kills Woman Instead, In Front of her Husband and 4-year-old Son | The Free Thought Project (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop-kill-family-dog-kills-woman-instead-front-husband-4-year-old-son/)

zraver
08 Jan 15,, 16:35
But as long as everyone goes home safe, that's the thing, right?

well not everyone...

Wooglin
08 Jan 15,, 20:52
well not everyone...

Well, everyone with a badge anyway. Not much concern beyond that. I see yet another case of overreact and try to kill dog has gone to hell and nobody will be held responsible.

Here's what happens when it's turned around...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/13/newser-teen-prison-sentence-shooting-dog/12593001/

gunnut
13 Jan 15,, 02:58
Anyone remember this story?



Women delivering newspapers in Torrance shot in manhunt for ex-cop

February 7, 2013 | 9:22 am

Two women who were shot by Los Angeles police in Torrance early Thursday during a massive manhunt for an ex-LAPD officer were delivering newspapers, sources said.

The women, shot in the 19500 block of Redbeam Avenue, were taken to area hospitals, Torrance police Lt. Devin Chase said. They were not identified. One was shot in the hand and the other in the back, according to Jesse Escochea, who captured video of the victims being treated.

It was not immediately known what newspapers the women were delivering. After the shooting, the blue pickup was riddled with bullet holes and what appeared to be newspapers lay in the street alongside.

Local, state and federal authorities are involved in a massive search for Christoper Jordan Dorner, 33, a former Los Angeles Police Department officer who is believed to have threatened "unconventional and asymmetrical warfare" against police in an online manifesto, and was suspected of shooting three police officers, one of whom died, early Thursday in Riverside County.

Dorner also is suspected of killing a couple in Orange County earlier this week.

Sources said the Los Angeles police detectives involved in the Torrance shooting were on protective detail for a police official named in the suspect's supposed manifesto, which was posted on what authorities believe is his Facebook page.

A second shooting, involving Torrance police officers, occurred about 5:45 a.m. at Flagler Lane and Beryl Street in Torrance. No injuries were reported in that incident.

Chase said that in both instances police came across vehicles they thought were similar to the one Dorner is believed to be driving. Neither vehicle was Dorner's.

"Now it appears neither of them are directly related," Chase said. "In both of them, officers believed they were at the time."

Freeway signs urged motorists to call 911 if they saw the suspect's 2005 Nissan Titan as officers patrolled the streets near one of the Riverside County crime scenes with rifles at the ready. Los Angeles police were put on a citywide tactical alert and the California Highway Patrol issued a "blue alert" for nine Southern California counties, warning that Dorner was considered "armed and extremely dangerous."

Hours after authorities announced they were looking for Dorner in connection with the double homicide this week in Irvine, the search intensified after three police officers were shot in Riverside County Thursday and Dorner was identified as a possible suspect.

The first police shooting occurred about 1:30 a.m. Thursday in Corona, where two LAPD officers were providing protection for someone mentioned in Dorner's manifesto, officials said. One officer suffered a graze wound to the head during a shootout and Dorner fled the scene, police said.

A short time later, two Riverside officers were shot at the corner of Magnolia Avenue and Arlington Avenue in Riverside. Riverside police Lt. Guy Toussaint said the officers were sitting at a red light when they were ambushed. One was killed, the other was still in surgery Thursday morning.

None of the officers involved were identified.

“Our officers were stopped at an intersection at a red light when they were ambushed," he said. "Because of the close proximity to the timeline, we believe there is a strong likelihood that former LAPD Officer Christopher Dorner was involved in our incident.”

In the online manifesto, Dorner specifically named the father of Monica Quan, the Cal State Fullerton assistant basketball coach who was found dead Sunday in Irvine along with her fiance, Keith Lawrence.

Randy Quan, a retired LAPD captain, was involved in the review process that ultimately led to Dorner’s dismissal. A former U.S. Navy reservist, Dorner was fired in 2009 for allegedly making false statements about his training officer. In the manifesto, he complained that Randy Quan and others did not fairly represent him at the review hearing.

“The violence of action will be high .... I will bring unconventional and asymmetrical warfare to those in LAPD uniform whether on or off duty," Dorner wrote.

Authorities said they believe Dorner attempted to steal a boat from an elderly man about 10:30 p.m. Wednesday at the Point Loma Yacht Club in San Diego, hours before the shootings in Riverside County.

The boat owner reported being accosted by a burly man who tied him up, threatened him with a gun and said he wanted the boat to flee to Mexico.

But while they were trying to get underway, a rope became entangled in the propeller and the boat was inoperable, authorities said.

The suspect fled the scene and the boat owner was unharmed.

About 2 a.m., a citizen reported finding property belonging to Dorner on a street near Lindbergh Field, not far from the scene of the attempted boat theft. The property included a briefcase and Dorner's LAPD badge.


Women delivering newspapers in Torrance shot in manhunt for ex-cop | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/ex-cop-manhunt-newspaper-delivery-women-shot.html)

I understand how easy it is to mistaken 2 Hispanic women driving a blue pickup truck delivering newspaper for 1 black man driving a white pickup truck hunting cops. Hell, I mistaken 2 for 1, brown for black, woman for man, blue for white, on a daily basis. At least a highly trained policeman, LA's finest, got the pickup truck right.

zraver
13 Jan 15,, 05:52
The 8 officers invovled who fired a 130 rouds, 40 of which struck neighboring residences did not face any criminal sanctions. The city paid the two women 4.2 million and in another shooting related to the Dorner case paid a surfer $1.8 million but likewise cleared the officer who rammed him and then shot him.

tuna
13 Jan 15,, 13:54
^^^^
And it was only the lack of marksmanship on the part of the officers that saved these two ladies' lives.

gunnut
13 Jan 15,, 22:52
How about this case?



Kelly Thomas case: why police were acquitted in killing of homeless man (+video)

Two former California police officers who beat a mentally ill homeless man unconscious were acquitted Monday. The case had sparked public outrage.

By Elizabeth Barber, Staff writer January 14, 2014

Two former California police officers seen in a video beating a mentally ill homeless man unconscious during an arrest were acquitted Monday of killing him.

The Orange County jury’s verdict, after two days of deliberations, brought a close to a case that set off an emotional debate on a police officer’s right to use force and the special needs of people with psychiatric disorders. The case also fueled a nationwide conversation on how to train police to work with mentally ill suspects.

The decision upheld the defense’s argument that the two Fullerton police officers, Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli, had acted in line with their training and their professional right to use force when they beat Kelly Thomas, a homeless man diagnosed as a schizophrenic, during a police altercation on a summer night in 2011. It dealt a blow to the prosecution’s contention that the incident sets a precedent for allowing police to deal brutally with the mentally ill, putting a vulnerable population – prone to erratic behavior during arrest – at risk of the same fate as Mr. Thomas.

"This is carte blanche to police officers to do whatever they want," Ron Thomas, the victim’s father, told CNN after the verdict was announced.

Mr. Ramos was acquitted of second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter, and Mr. Cicinelli was acquitted of involuntary manslaughter and excessive use of force. A third officer, Joseph Wolfe, was also accused of involuntary manslaughter, but the district attorney’s office said it would drop the charge against Mr. Wolfe, following the Monday verdicts.

Mr. Thomas, the father, has said that he hopes that the US Justice Department will file federal charges against the officers. The FBI has been pursuing its own investigation of the high-profile case.

On July 5, 2011, at 8:23 p.m., the Fullerton Police Department received a call reporting a “homeless” man – “disheveled and shirtless” – who was “looking in car windows and pulling on handles of parked cars” at a bus depot, according to the Orange Country District Attorney’s office. Six officers, Mr. Ramos and Mr. Cicinelli included, responded.

At first, all was calm. The officers ordered Thomas to sit on the curb and put his hands on his knees. He eventually complied but also appeared to be confused, at times vocally belligerent, the district attorney’s office said.

Then, in circumstances that will likely remain unclear, the altercation turned violent. The defense said that Thomas did not follow police orders to sit still; the prosecution said that Thomas did not understand and could not follow those orders.

What was clear was what followed, since it was recorded from start to finish on a 33-minute surveillance video that would later fuel public outrage and push the case to trial: Ramos put on latex gloves and then put his fists in Thomas’s face, saying, "see these fists?...They're getting ready to ---- you up." For nine minutes and 40 seconds, the six officers pummeled Thomas to the ground, with Ramos delivering volleys of punches and beating Thomas with his baton and Cicinelli tasing the homeless man twice in the face. In parts of the footage that particularly incited public anger, Thomas repeatedly cries out for his father to help him, as well as screams again and again “I’m sorry” and “please, I can’t breathe.”

The altercation left Thomas unconscious, and he did not regain consciousness after being transferred to a local hospital. He died five days later.

The defense did not dispute that the officers had beaten Thomas, but how those actions should be interpreted in court was at the core of the case, the Los Angeles Times reported.

To the prosecution, and to protesters that rallied to Thomas’s cause during the trial, the video showed two police officers abusing their right to force against an unarmed man who “posed a low-level threat,” according to the district attorney’s office.

The defense said that cops must protect themselves when they believe they are in danger, without fear of prosecution for handling the incident with force.

"That fear costs lives,” John Barnett, an attorney for Ramos, told the Los Angeles Times. "Not because they fear the criminal, but because they fear the court.”

On the whole, the defense argued that the two officers were acting in accordance with their training in how to control a tense situation.

"They did what they were trained to do," Mr. Barnett told the Los Angeles Times.


Kelly Thomas case: why police were acquitted in killing of homeless man (+video) - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2014/0114/Kelly-Thomas-case-why-police-were-acquitted-in-killing-of-homeless-man-video)

hzhang
14 Jan 15,, 02:48
This is really a tragedy

chanjyj
14 Jan 15,, 09:12
"Ramos put on latex gloves and then put his fists in Thomas’s face, saying, "see these fists?...They're getting ready to ---- you up" - this is screwed up.

tuna
14 Jan 15,, 13:31
(putting tin foil hat on firmly to avoid mind control rays from the aliens)
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, though I do find them entertaining. I keep wondering why the issue of overly aggressive cops forgetting they are peace officers and focusing on being tactical Tommy law ENFORCEMENT keeps becoming an issue of race.
(Here's my conspiracy theory)
Could it be that "THEY" (can't have a conspiracy without "they" being in charge: I just don't know if it is Jews or Masons* behind this) want it to be a race thing, so that when events like the original post force a huge backlash / crackdown in the name of "officer safety" (as in "we need to do something to stop our officers from being executed in parked cars") it is only a backlash against minorities, and therefore not deemed that important, while still giving LEOs extra-Constitutional powers?
It fits, and without as much suspension of reality as the underground city in Denver being built by the Masons.

(takes tin foil hat off)

Hmmmm?

(* these two groups being blamed for 90% of these theories)

gunnut
14 Jan 15,, 21:13
I don't believe it's a "race" thing per se. It's a host of factors that contribute to the perception, and some reality, of how our police being overly aggressive.

Here are my reasons:

1. Personality - it takes a certain type of personality to be a policeman, usually type A with aggressive attitude. They have to deal with difficult people that normal people don't want to deal with. The people who could/would deal with those difficult people have a certain trait.

2. Union protection - the union is powerful and has the politicians in their back pockets, that include the DAs, the police commissioner, and the city council. When one of the members does something wrong, the union protects its own, no matter the cost to the tax payers. Also, ever noticed that when the police does something wrong, it is investigated by the....police....

3. Our attitude - We are Americans. We are famous for not trusting our government. That's our nature. That's what started this whole thing 230 years ago. We don't trust those with power. We think they are out to get us. Sometimes they are. Those in power know this, and react accordingly. The police is viewed as the protector of the people and arbiter of disputes in other countries, especially in Asia. They are viewed as the oppressors here, by both the left (racist cops) and the right (enforcer of the gun grabbers).

Race might have some bearing to it. After all, we are human beings. We tend to view those who aren't like us with apprehension. That's just the way we are. However, I don't believe (majority) cops are out to get those who don't look like them.

astralis
16 Jan 15,, 20:24
Holder limits seized-asset sharing process that split billions with local, state police - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/holder-ends-seized-asset-sharing-process-that-split-billions-with-local-state-police/2015/01/16/0e7ca058-99d4-11e4-bcfb-059ec7a93ddc_story.html)

gunnut
16 Jan 15,, 20:27
Holder limits seized-asset sharing process that split billions with local, state police - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/holder-ends-seized-asset-sharing-process-that-split-billions-with-local-state-police/2015/01/16/0e7ca058-99d4-11e4-bcfb-059ec7a93ddc_story.html)

Wow I think that's the first thing Holder did that I ever agreed with.

astralis
16 Jan 15,, 20:28
so i figured...;)

seriously, though, this and the body-cam initiative will go a long way in curbing police abuse. the policing 4 profit model that i've seen is seriously disturbing, especially combined with the militarization tendency.

hell, DC has a bad habit of using traffic cams not to promote safety but as a huge cash grab.

zraver
16 Jan 15,, 22:41
Such awesome news.

chakos
16 Jan 15,, 23:31
Maybe because i come from a country where a cop has to explain in detail the reasons for even drawing a firearm let alone using it, i have a harder line on this matter.

The first thing that cops should be taught when they join the academy is that they will be held as accountable, if not more so, as the criminals they arrest in their line of work.

The second thing they need to be taught is that as a public servant its more important that an innocent lives than if you live. You dont shoot because 'i thought he had a gun' you shoot because 'he has drawn a gun and has it pointed at me/another police officer/a member of the public'. You need to be accountable for every action you take in a critical incident.

The third thing i would teach them is killing a family dog is considered on par with a member of the public killing a police dog and the punishments will be exactly the same.

Of those that dont walk out the room in disgust... that is the police force you want to keep.

zraver
16 Jan 15,, 23:52
I wish that was the police force we had.

gunnut
17 Jan 15,, 02:06
so i figured...;)

seriously, though, this and the body-cam initiative will go a long way in curbing police abuse. the policing 4 profit model that i've seen is seriously disturbing, especially combined with the militarization tendency.

hell, DC has a bad habit of using traffic cams not to promote safety but as a huge cash grab.

I am definitely a fan of police body cams. Larry Elder mentioned that the city of Rialto adopted police body cams and the complaints filed by the citizens in the course of interacting with the police dropped dramatically.

Policing for profit is abominable, especially when a government agency wield, literally, the power of life and death.

Many traffic cams in sounthern California have been dismantled after complaints that they increase accident rate. And studies have confirmed the suspicion.

bonehead
18 Jan 15,, 01:56
Gunnut


The decision upheld the defense’s argument that the two Fullerton police officers, Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli, had acted in line with their training and their professional right to use force when they beat Kelly Thomas, a homeless man diagnosed as a schizophrenic, during a police altercation on a summer night in 2011. It dealt a blow to the prosecution’s contention that the incident sets a precedent for allowing police to deal brutally with the mentally ill, putting a vulnerable population – prone to erratic behavior during arrest – at risk of the same fate as Mr. Thomas.


Specifically the officers "had acted in line with their training".

Sometimes it is the system and not the people that are at fault.Sometimes both are at fault. I am not defending the cops but the axiom is for any agency would be that if you want to keep your job you follow their rules to the letter. It is the deviations from the rules that gets the employees hung.

bonehead
18 Jan 15,, 02:20
I wish that was the police force we had.

So do the criminals.

chanjyj
18 Jan 15,, 02:52
So do the criminals.

The Australian police (at least in Queensland) do a mighty fine job - I stayed there for 2 years.

zraver
18 Jan 15,, 04:33
So do the criminals.

I bet the ghost of John Crawford does as well.... I think he probably has a lot of other ghost of unarmed men shot by police who could join in. When more unarmed men are shot by police than police are shot by armed men, there is an obviously imbalance in response violence. We videos surface of wanton killing of pets not displaying aggression and no charges are brought there is a problem.

On the score one for the Constitution column, Holder's decision to end Federal sharing of seized assets is a huge victory. It takes the profit motive out of arrest-less/chargeless property seizures.

tuna
18 Jan 15,, 13:20
It seems to me that if police are following policy, no matter if the policy is or should be illegal, than the "I was only following orders" defense works for them.
I was taught that drawing a weapon was the same as using it, both are considered deadly force. Yet, police tend to draw a lot more than should be prudent, and not always in a desdly force situation.

Or at least it wasn't until they made it one.

gunnut
20 Jan 15,, 01:21
Gunnut


The decision upheld the defense’s argument that the two Fullerton police officers, Manuel Ramos and Jay Cicinelli, had acted in line with their training and their professional right to use force when they beat Kelly Thomas, a homeless man diagnosed as a schizophrenic, during a police altercation on a summer night in 2011. It dealt a blow to the prosecution’s contention that the incident sets a precedent for allowing police to deal brutally with the mentally ill, putting a vulnerable population – prone to erratic behavior during arrest – at risk of the same fate as Mr. Thomas.


Specifically the officers "had acted in line with their training".

Sometimes it is the system and not the people that are at fault.Sometimes both are at fault. I am not defending the cops but the axiom is for any agency would be that if you want to keep your job you follow their rules to the letter. It is the deviations from the rules that gets the employees hung.

So...they were only following orders?

What do we tell our soldiers what they should do if they encounter "interesting" orders?

Who else used "I was only following orders" defense?

Doktor
20 Jan 15,, 10:32
Nice rant gunnut,

But it's not orders, but the training they followed if I am reading well.

You don't really expect to train someone to do something and then blame him for doing exactly that.

gunnut
27 Jan 15,, 02:52
Nice rant gunnut,

But it's not orders, but the training they followed if I am reading well.

You don't really expect to train someone to do something and then blame him for doing exactly that.

Orders, training, policy....whatever....

Here's a comic strip taking a jab at the current state of US police.

troung
27 Jan 15,, 06:14
Gunnut,

He is just defending your freedom. You should approach them slowly, make no movements, don't look like you were thinking about something, make sure you are not a low income earner, and thank them for their service with your head bowed making sure to call them sir.

Bigfella
27 Jan 15,, 06:55
Maybe because i come from a country where a cop has to explain in detail the reasons for even drawing a firearm let alone using it, i have a harder line on this matter.

The first thing that cops should be taught when they join the academy is that they will be held as accountable, if not more so, as the criminals they arrest in their line of work.

The second thing they need to be taught is that as a public servant its more important that an innocent lives than if you live. You dont shoot because 'i thought he had a gun' you shoot because 'he has drawn a gun and has it pointed at me/another police officer/a member of the public'. You need to be accountable for every action you take in a critical incident.

The third thing i would teach them is killing a family dog is considered on par with a member of the public killing a police dog and the punishments will be exactly the same.

Of those that dont walk out the room in disgust... that is the police force you want to keep.

Clearly you didn't spend much time in Victoria in the 80s & 90s. Bodies dropping everywhere. Some of them had guns, plenty didn't. Fortunately it got so crazy that there was wholesale re-training. Much improved now.

Bigfella
27 Jan 15,, 06:58
Gunnut,

He is just defending your freedom. You should approach them slowly, make no movements, don't look like you were thinking about something, make sure you are not a low income earner, and thank them for their service with your head bowed making sure to call them sir.

Try not to be black too. That will help.

gunnut
27 Jan 15,, 18:13
Gunnut,

He is just defending your freedom. You should approach them slowly, make no movements, don't look like you were thinking about something, make sure you are not a low income earner, and thank them for their service with your head bowed making sure to call them sir.

I won't go that far, but I will say that even though I am not a big fan of the police, I have had nothing but positive interaction with them. The key is to be polite and respectful, and that attitude will be reciprocated. If I start off the interaction like an angry customer accusing him of stealing money from me, how would you or anyone else react?

Another thing to remember, only the negative video footage of police encounters make the news. The routine stuff never makes it. They're just not news.

Is there abuse of power by the police? Definitely yes. But most are good guys just there for a pay check. The problem is the bad ones coupled with the broad discretion of power we allow them.

tuna
28 Jan 15,, 14:02
I won't go that far, but I will say that even though I am not a big fan of the police, I have had nothing but positive interaction with them. The key is to be polite and respectful, and that attitude will be reciprocated. If I start off the interaction like an angry customer accusing him of stealing money from me, how would you or anyone else react?

Another thing to remember, only the negative video footage of police encounters make the news. The routine stuff never makes it. They're just not news.

Is there abuse of power by the police? Definitely yes. But most are good guys just there for a pay check. The problem is the bad ones coupled with the broad discretion of power we allow them.

Like you say, the attitude is reciprocated. That goes both ways. If the cop decides to be an arrogant ass, then he can expect the same from me.
The problem isn't so much with the bad ones - it is with the multitude of otherwise good ones who refuse to help clean house under the brotherhood of the thin blue line. Those who refuse to help do something about the dirty cops are just as dirty, and the reason for my "ten percent of cops give the rest a good name" quip.

gunnut
28 Jan 15,, 20:52
Like you say, the attitude is reciprocated. That goes both ways. If the cop decides to be an arrogant ass, then he can expect the same from me.
The problem isn't so much with the bad ones - it is with the multitude of otherwise good ones who refuse to help clean house under the brotherhood of the thin blue line. Those who refuse to help do something about the dirty cops are just as dirty, and the reason for my "ten percent of cops give the rest a good name" quip.

Surely, the "code of silence" is also a big part of the problem. Cops help each other out. And a good cop otherwise would turn a blind eye to some questionable behavior of bad colleagues.

What is the solution? I don't know. Any new government bureaucracy added to keep the police in line will just turn into another apparatus that protects them and impede justice. Like I said, who investigates bad cops? Other cops.

astralis
28 Jan 15,, 21:09
federal oversight has been good, but unfortunately it's not really preventive in measure-- it's more like what happens when things really hit the fan.

for instance, federal oversight of the LAPD sparked a LOT of reforms for the better.

for a wonder i agree with gunnut and don't think we really need a new bureaucracy to conduct this type of preventive oversight. supposedly we have something called news media that does this...

gunnut
28 Jan 15,, 21:24
Try not to be black too. That will help.

Just to show our police is not that racist.

White girl shot dead:
Three cops, a 17-year-old and 'a cry for help': why did Kristiana Coignard die? (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/three-cops-a-17-year-old-and-a-cry-for-help-why-did-kristiana-coignard-die/ar-AA8GDtD)

Hispanic teen shot dead:
No charges filed against Longview officers who shot, killed 15-y - KLTV.com-Tyler, Longview, Jacksonville, Texas | ETX News (http://www.kltv.com/story/27443462/no-charges-filed-against-longview-officers-who-shot-killed-15-year-old-robbery-suspect)

White man shot dead:
Longview man shot, killed by police had pleaded to threatening officers - Longview News-Journal: Police (http://www.news-journal.com/news/police/longview-man-shot-killed-by-police-had-pleaded-to-threatening/article_7e108221-3e16-5b84-a988-84327b513005.html)

All by the same department, in less than a year. I don't have any information on how many blacks they've shot during the same time span.

tuna
28 Jan 15,, 21:29
Civilian oversight works ok for the military. Something similar at the state or county level? There's going to be problems in any solution - but I think that a group made up of a good representation of the community, a group that had teeth to at least fire rogue cops, would solve a lot of problems. The problem is that the board will be at best made up of:

30% who want to do the right thing
30% who want to be cops and will kiss any butt to do so
30% who hate cops and will crush them at any opportunity
10% who want to run for office and think this looks good

I'm thinking an unpaid position, to keep out those who just want the job for a jobs sake.

Not a great idea, but maybe one to build on?

gunnut
29 Jan 15,, 01:46
Civilian oversight works ok for the military. Something similar at the state or county level? There's going to be problems in any solution - but I think that a group made up of a good representation of the community, a group that had teeth to at least fire rogue cops, would solve a lot of problems. The problem is that the board will be at best made up of:

30% who want to do the right thing
30% who want to be cops and will kiss any butt to do so
30% who hate cops and will crush them at any opportunity
10% who want to run for office and think this looks good

I'm thinking an unpaid position, to keep out those who just want the job for a jobs sake.

Not a great idea, but maybe one to build on?

Nothing will work for one big reason: union.