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Blademaster
25 Oct 14,, 06:27
see here:

BBC News - US firm fined for underpaying Indian workers (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29751691)

See the relevant quote,
Reports say the firm paid the Indian workers the same wages they received in their normal jobs in the Indian city of Bangalore - and continued to pay them in rupees.

US laws require foreign workers to be paid at least the minimum wage, with overtime for working more than 40 hours a week.

"This is worse than anything that I ever saw in any of those Los Angeles sweatshops," Michael Eastwood, assistant district director of Department of Labour, told the Associated Press news agency.

The point I want to make is the contrast of the treatment meted out to US firm executives and the treatment of DK Khobograde. The US executives were not hauled before jail and stripped searched and accused of visa fraud which is plainly here.

And zraver and others were ranting and frothing at the "inhuman treatment" by the diplomat for engaging in slavery like practices and trafficking and using pretty strong language. Furthermore, there were posts of how US government would mete out the exact same treatment if similar practices were found elsewhere in US.

Can anyone tell us why these members of this firm, see here: About EFI: Senior Leadership Team (http://w3.efi.com/about-efi/senior-leadership-team), were not arrested, strip-searched, and made to pay high amounts of bail and undergo such humiliating treatment that DK Khobograde underwent?

And many american and western posters were wondering and questioning why India and several posters like me were protesting at such treatment and we were ridiculed for such views.

Talk about double standards. :rolleyes:

citanon
25 Oct 14,, 07:10
38349

Blademaster
25 Oct 14,, 07:26
Your attempt of ridiculing this thread does not obliviate the fact that there is a double standard going on and it needs to be pointed out and commented on. I would have posted in that DK thread but it was closed down, hence the need for a new thread. If you want to see where I am coming from, read this thread: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/american-politics-economy/64781-indian-diplomat-arrested-nyc.html

Posters were justifying the treatment of the Indian diplomat meted out by US authorities. I have pointed out a similar situation with a similar fact pattern and highlighted the difference of the treatment meted out by US authorities.

Oracle
25 Oct 14,, 07:38
Khobragade (Slavery + less than minimum wage) Vs EFI (less than minimum wage paid).

38350

Blademaster
25 Oct 14,, 07:45
Khobragade (Slavery + less than minimum wage) Vs EFI (less than minimum wage paid).

38350

Really? :rolleyes: How was it slavery when the maid had complete freedom of movement and had her own hours of work and her own room and amenities? She even got paid more than these workers by the firm. Your attempts of characterizing Dk's actions as slavery is pretty revealing for someone who claims to be a true Indian.

Try again, Sherlock Holmes.
38351

YellowFever
25 Oct 14,, 08:47
Let it go....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=parFSROrSyE

YellowFever
25 Oct 14,, 08:47
Because people all across the world agree...

38352

Bigfella
25 Oct 14,, 11:41
BM has a very good point. Surely only a savage and brutal people clinging to the bottom rung of civilization would pay so low a wage. Such people richly deserve any criticism that comes their way.

Hey BM, maybe if you keep this thread active for long enough vsdoc/doppleganger/sated Buddha will invent another persona and agree with you. He always was your biggest fan. :biggrin:

commander
25 Oct 14,, 12:56
Lol and I thought WAB had some unbiased opinion on some issues already , but some of its members had proved before and are still proving that is not the case. Instead of just trolling (using it intentionally) why don't add something valuable instead of wasting some digital space :whome:.

So this proves once again the bully doesn't follow his own rules although I am not sure what i should have expected , silly me. At least stop taking the moral high ground hereafter on any issue cause who knows your government might do the same in every dang thing :biggrin:

commander
25 Oct 14,, 13:00
And for some ignorant on this issue it was never about DK, it was about how our DIPLOMAT was treated. So stop saying silly stupid things trying to say one is slavery and the other is not.

Double Edge
25 Oct 14,, 13:18
see here:

BBC News - US firm fined for underpaying Indian workers (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29751691)

See the relevant quote,
ok, here is the part i don't get.


The eight workers were brought to the US on a special project, at the time when they helped the company move its headquarters from Foster City to Fremont.

Reports say the firm paid the Indian workers the same wages they received in their normal jobs in the Indian city of Bangalore - and continued to pay them in rupees.
Which Indian will go to the US for the same wages they get in India. Living costs in the US are not the same. It would be a loss. They will go so long as they get a chance to make much more. So something is missing in this story.

But as I recall the maid was being offered 3-5 times what she would get in India for the same work. The issue was this still was under US laws despite other benefits.


The point I want to make is the contrast of the treatment meted out to US firm executives and the treatment of DK Khobograde. The US executives were not hauled before jail and stripped searched and accused of visa fraud which is plainly here.

Can anyone tell us why these members of this firm, see here: About EFI: Senior Leadership Team (http://w3.efi.com/about-efi/senior-leadership-team), were not arrested, strip-searched, and made to pay high amounts of bail and undergo such humiliating treatment that DK Khobograde underwent?
No, but american firms get into trouble now and then when an Erin Brockovich comes around.


And many american and western posters were wondering and questioning why India and several posters like me were protesting at such treatment and we were ridiculed for such views.
I wasn't or chose not to feel that way and made the same points in a different way. Had differences over that affair even with members of my own family.

The problem was things had crossed a point of no return in the diplomats case. The key was to prevent it reaching that far which was a failure between the state dept and India's foreign office. It took on a life of its own. At the same time it has to be said this was no ordinary maid, she had better connections, she had the upper hand in that fight.

That was a story of a disgruntled worker but who spilled the beans here ? I doubt it was those same indian workers complaining about 'inhuman conditions'.


Talk about double standards. :rolleyes:
Any time an american gets into trouble abroad their state orgs swing into action. This is something we need to do but its an issue of capacity. They have lots of people to do it we don't not yet.

Right now Kiwis have more capacity then India in this regard.

bolo121
25 Oct 14,, 14:08
I doubt that this was any deliberate action by the US government.
It was an ambitious DA wanting a trophy case.
The state department had very little leverage on him and so he got to run it to the end.

However the view in India was from the beginning was shaped by the media narrative of a calculated insult to the Nation.

Officer of Engineers
25 Oct 14,, 16:33
What double standard? One got convicted. The other got off scott free.

Doktor
25 Oct 14,, 17:02
BM,

How are the two cases related, but the underpayment part?

TopHatter
25 Oct 14,, 18:22
So this proves once again the bully doesn't follow his own rules although I am not sure what i should have expected , silly me. At least stop taking the moral high ground hereafter on any issue cause who knows your government might do the same in every dang thing :biggrin:

EFI is a government company? And the government brushed the incident under the carpet? Huh, who knew. :confused:

YellowFever
25 Oct 14,, 18:47
I kinda figured vsdoc was sated buddha but doppelganger too?????

Man, the guy doesn't know when to quit....

Double Edge
25 Oct 14,, 19:35
I kinda figured vsdoc was sated buddha but doppelganger too?????

Man, the guy doesn't know when to quit....
Sure ?

vsdoc was no biker and had a bigger hard on about iran. Also sharper edge on partisan rhetoric.

YellowFever
25 Oct 14,, 19:49
Not sure.

But I always thought so since they both annoyed the colonel with the same tpye of questions...lol

Oracle
25 Oct 14,, 20:40
$1.21/hour.

Hehehehe. Laughable.

Blade wanted to make a case out of thin air. A very poor and mis-informed lawyer.

In the Indian IT industry, a fresh graduate outta college is billed at a minimum of $21.00/hour for offshore projects. Suppose, client request has to be be fulfilled, than for the same guy/girl in US, the minimum billing rate is $54.00/hour. What in the hell am I missing like DE did? White man's burden? Probably.

What visa did they use to get into US. L or H? Or did they break US laws by sneaking with B Visas and working. And also, before these guys join office in US, they have to sign contracts in India, and are well aware of the money being paid for their services.

There are millions in India who get ripped off in the MNREGA scheme. These people don't even get justice. Atleast in US, systems are in place and people actually get justice.

Oracle
25 Oct 14,, 20:41
BM has a very good point. Surely only a savage and brutal people clinging to the bottom rung of civilization would pay so low a wage. Such people richly deserve any criticism that comes their way.

Hey BM, maybe if you keep this thread active for long enough vsdoc/doppleganger/sated Buddha will invent another persona and agree with you. He always was your biggest fan. :biggrin:

You're encouraging trolls. :biggrin:


EFI is a government company? And the government brushed the incident under the carpet? Huh, who knew. :confused:

Forgive him. He's just trolling. Blade fanboy.

Double Edge
25 Oct 14,, 21:29
Blade wanted to make a case out of thin air. A very poor and mis-informed lawyer.

In the Indian IT industry, a fresh graduate outta college is billed at a minimum of $21.00/hour for offshore projects. Suppose, client request has to be be fulfilled, than for the same guy/girl in US, the minimum billing rate is $54.00/hour. What in the hell am I missing like DE did? White man's burden? Probably.
Stop it with the personal attacks. You have BM entirely wrong. He's been here since day 1.

commander
25 Oct 14,, 22:41
EFI is a government company? And the government brushed the incident under the carpet? Huh, who knew. :confused:


Not my point, I was only referring to the scenario when an American company does the same though they aren't a government organization you still treat them with royalty where in another country's diplomat is jailed and was cavity searched?

commander
25 Oct 14,, 22:46
You're encouraging trolls. :biggrin:



Forgive him. He's just trolling. Blade fanboy.

FYI I can speak for myself and your holiness can take your bag of crap and make some room for real conversations.

You calling me a troll is probably the biggest joke I ever heard.

Doktor
26 Oct 14,, 00:23
If you ladies are done, may I ask, again, where is the correlation and the double standard?

DarthSiddius
26 Oct 14,, 00:41
Khobragade (Slavery + less than minimum wage) Vs EFI (less than minimum wage paid).

38350

This is just plain wrong, there was no charge for slavery.

In any case..

This is not double standards as an American company underpaying its employees (in the US) is not the same as the American government underpaying its employees overseas. It would be double standards if someone from the American government in India or elsewhere underpays their employees in violation of the local labour laws.

Blademaster
27 Oct 14,, 23:15
What double standard? One got convicted. The other got off scott free.

There were no convictions. Only fines and they were civil in nature, not criminal. DK did not get off scott free. She has an outstanding warrant against her. Charges have not been dropped.

The double standard is that DK got strip-searched and thrown into jail while those executives were not and did not have any charges against them.

Blademaster
27 Oct 14,, 23:18
This is just plain wrong, there was no charge for slavery.

In any case..

This is not double standards as an American company underpaying its employees (in the US) is not the same as the American government underpaying its employees overseas. It would be double standards if someone from the American government in India or elsewhere underpays their employees in violation of the local labour laws.

then why was DK arrested if you considered the act of hiring a maid to be a government action. The US governnment made it clear that it was a private action. Hence the comparision to an American company. So your analogy is wrong and far off the mark.

Blademaster
27 Oct 14,, 23:22
$1.21/hour.

Hehehehe. Laughable.

Blade wanted to make a case out of thin air. A very poor and mis-informed lawyer.

:rolleyes: Sure whatever floats your boat.



In the Indian IT industry, a fresh graduate outta college is billed at a minimum of $21.00/hour for offshore projects. Suppose, client request has to be be fulfilled, than for the same guy/girl in US, the minimum billing rate is $54.00/hour. What in the hell am I missing like DE did? White man's burden? Probably.

What visa did they use to get into US. L or H? Or did they break US laws by sneaking with B Visas and working. And also, before these guys join office in US, they have to sign contracts in India, and are well aware of the money being paid for their services.

So you are accusing these Indians of gaming the system but not the maid? :rolleyes:



There are millions in India who get ripped off in the MNREGA scheme. These people don't even get justice. Atleast in US, systems are in place and people actually get justice.

MNREGA is a big fat joke and that last comment shows you are absolutely clueless with the way the justice system works in US. No the system doesn't work as advertised and people do not actually get justice. If they did, then there would be no place or money for lawyers. The system would hum as it works and people wouldn't have to pay lawyers. Guess what? lawyers are in demand showing that justice has not been served.

Blademaster
27 Oct 14,, 23:29
ok, here is the part i don't get.


Which Indian will go to the US for the same wages they get in India. Living costs in the US are not the same. It would be a loss. They will go so long as they get a chance to make much more. So something is missing in this story.

But as I recall the maid was being offered 3-5 times what she would get in India for the same work. The issue was this still was under US laws despite other benefits.

Who knows but that is not the point. The point I am making is that while the maid was underpaid according to US laws, DK was criminally charged. EFI executives were not. That is the key difference I am referring to.


No, but american firms get into trouble now and then when an Erin Brockovich comes around.
Sorry but your equivalance is a fallacy because those executives were not arrested and strip-searched and be subjected to humiliating treatment. Those executives were just slapped with civil fines or monetary damages. DK was slapped with criminal charges and she still has an outstanding warrant out for her to face criminal charges. Criminal charges and civil charges are two entirely separate things.




The problem was things had crossed a point of no return in the diplomats case. The key was to prevent it reaching that far which was a failure between the state dept and India's foreign office. It took on a life of its own. At the same time it has to be said this was no ordinary maid, she had better connections, she had the upper hand in that fight.

That she did and she finangled into a green card. US authorities should have known better and treat it like a civil case as the US authorities have down with EFI. They treated it as a civil case, not a criminal case. That is the double standard I am talking about.



That was a story of a disgruntled worker but who spilled the beans here ? I doubt it was those same indian workers complaining about 'inhuman conditions'.
No the Indians did complain. After all, how did the US Labor Dept found out?



Any time an american gets into trouble abroad their state orgs swing into action. This is something we need to do but its an issue of capacity. They have lots of people to do it we don't not yet.
In the DK case, India state org did swung into action.



Right now Kiwis have more capacity then India in this regard.

No doubt.

Blademaster
27 Oct 14,, 23:35
BM,

How are the two cases related, but the underpayment part?

Similar fact patterns but different outcomes.

DarthSiddius
27 Oct 14,, 23:37
then why was DK arrested if you considered the act of hiring a maid to be a government action. The US governnment made it clear that it was a private action. Hence the comparision to an American company. So your analogy is wrong and far off the mark.

I'll quote myself


It would be double standards if someone from the American government in India or elsewhere underpays their employees in violation of the local labour laws.

It would still be a private action.


BTW in my opinion this entire DK fiasco could have been handled much more tactfully (and with a lot less drama) by all the parties involved.
The US agencies did drop the ball in their handling of an IFS officer belonging to a government the US administration professes to have "the defining partnership of this century" with.
The maid played the American system to her and her family's advantage. Now the fault for letting this happen does in fact lie with the Ministry of External Affairs' current system of having "dual contracts" if not DK herself.
And as always our media over inflated this whole issue forcing the GoI to act "tough"
With the benefit of hindsight - the MEA/DK didn't respect US law when filing the visa application, on the other hand the US State department didn't respect the position of the diplomat while going after her.

DarthSiddius
27 Oct 14,, 23:41
The double standard is that DK got strip-searched and thrown into jail while those executives were not and did not have any charges against them.

Not sure but aren't different agencies involved in these two separate incidents? If so, they could have their own standard procedures to handle such cases. Not that I agree with what DK was subjected to.

Blademaster
27 Oct 14,, 23:50
I'll quote myself


It would still be a private action.


I am disagreeing with you on the implied notion that what US did was not double standards. One got arrested and got strip-searched and got criminal charges slapped against her and be subjected to humiliating treatment while the other did not and only got monetary fines imposed. And both cases were on the issue of underpaying foreign workers from India.




BTW in my opinion this entire DK fiasco could have been handled much more tactfully (and a lot less drama) by all the parties involved.
The US agencies did drop the ball in their handling of an IFS officer belonging to a government the US administration professes to have "the defining partnership of this century" with.
The maid played the American system to her and her family's advantage. Now the fault for letting this happen does in fact lie with the Ministry of External Affairs' current system of having "dual contracts" if not DK herself.
And as always our media over inflated this whole issue forcing the GoI to act "tough"
With the benefit of hindsight - the MEA didn't respect US law when filing the visa application, on the other hand the US State department didn't respect the position of the diplomat while going after her.

Counterresponse:
1. There would have been no drama if the diplomat wasn't arrested, strip-searched, and be subject to humiliating treatment. If the US had sent a letter or sent a formal protest to the Indian ambassador, there would have been no hullabaloo.
2. They did more than that. They did purposefully.
3. Actually, there was more than to this. There was somebody in the US embassy/consulate that actively aided the maid and that person got kicked out.
4. No the media did not overinflate this. They properly reported this and made sure that the weak docile PM MMS did not brush it under the rug as he would have done as some form of appeasement. The media made sure that the GoI looked out for one of their own and protest strongly about it.
5. And the US didn't respect Indian law when they operated a for profit school and liquor dispensary store in New Delhi but GoI looked the other way as part of a gentlemen's agreement. US broke that gentlemen's agreement first. What the US did in New Delhi was worse than what the diplomat did in New York. After all, US cheated millions of dollars while the diplomat didn't pay thousands.

This whole thing would have been avoided if US just sent a letter to the Indian Ambassador along with a monetary fine and a court order to appear or forfeit the right to contest the charges just as they did with EFI. The US authorities sent letters and formal notices to the company with civil fines and there were no arrests.

Blademaster
27 Oct 14,, 23:57
EFI is a government company? And the government brushed the incident under the carpet? Huh, who knew. :confused:

yeah stay confused that way... at no times did we say EFI is a government company or the government brushed the incident under the carpet. Way to go off the mark and miss the point completely as customary. The point is the different treatment meted out to the EFI executives as compared to the diplomat DK. :rolleyes:

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 00:03
BM has a very good point. Surely only a savage and brutal people clinging to the bottom rung of civilization would pay so low a wage. Such people richly deserve any criticism that comes their way.


38359




Hey BM, maybe if you keep this thread active for long enough vsdoc/doppleganger/sated Buddha will invent another persona and agree with you. He always was your biggest fan. :biggrin:

And you don't have any questionable admirers? yeah sure. :rolleyes:

I will take vsdoc/doppelganger/SB any day any time of the week over Oracle. In fact, you are quite welcome to have Oracle since Oracle would play the part of a fawning bootlicker quite admirably to your narcissistic colonial image of yourself. Please give him a visa to your country. Both countries would be the better for it.

Double Edge
28 Oct 14,, 00:16
Who knows but that is not the point. The point I am making is that while the maid was underpaid according to US laws, DK was criminally charged. EFI executives were not. That is the key difference I am referring to.
As i recall the charge was for DK lying on the visa application form regarding pay.

So who hired these people and brought them over ?

Was it was the company itself or most likely some consulting firm. They are the employers of these people. They are the ones who will get into the net. If thats the case then EFI is untouchable.


No the Indians did complain. After all, how did the US Labor Dept found out?
This was not mentioned in the article. Unless there have been further revelations.

As to how the labor dept found out ? there are many ways. Disgruntled employees who lost a job for a start. This is the biggest source for tipoffs.

DarthSiddius
28 Oct 14,, 00:18
I am disagreeing with you on the implied notion that what US did was not double standards. One got arrested and got strip-searched and got criminal charges slapped against her and be subjected to humiliating treatment while the other did not and only got monetary fines imposed. And both cases were on the issue of underpaying foreign workers from India.


You would be right if the US was a monolithic block where all decisions and actions are made by and carried out by a singular overseeing authority.

BTW all countries have double standards. It's called having an affective foreign policy.


1. There would have been no drama if the diplomat wasn't arrested, strip-searched, and be subject to humiliating treatment. If the US had sent a letter or sent a formal protest to the Indian ambassador, there would have been no hullabaloo. As I said, all parties involved.


2. They did more than that. They did purposefully.
If they did, then why?


3. Actually, there was more than to this. There was somebody in the US embassy/consulate that actively aided the maid and that person got kicked out.
I wonder why this whole thing was handled by the US administration the way it was.


4. No the media did not overinflate this. They properly reported this and made sure that the weak docile PM MMS did not brush it under the rug as he would have done as some form of appeasement. The media made sure that the GoI looked out for one of their own and protest strongly about it.
I wouldn't call their reporting proper but their reporting did force MMS's hand.


5. And the US didn't respect Indian law when they operated a for profit school and liquor dispensary store in New Delhi but GoI looked the other way as part of a gentlemen's agreement. US broke that gentlemen's agreement first. What the US did in New Delhi was worse than what the diplomat did in New York. After all, US cheated millions of dollars while the diplomat didn't pay thousands.
Not sure what laws were broken but if they were this should have been raised through the proper channels.


This whole thing would have been avoided if US just sent a letter to the Indian Ambassador along with a monetary fine and a court order to appear or forfeit the right to contest the charges just as they did with EFI. The US authorities sent letters and formal notices to the company with civil fines and there were no arrests.
Again different agencies doing thing's their way leading to a collective blunder. But I agree, this whole DK episode could have (and should have) been better handled.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 00:28
As i recall the charge was for DK lying on the visa application form regarding pay.


So who hired these people and brought them over ?

Was it was the company itself or most likely some consulting firm. They are the employers of these people. They are the ones who will get into the net. If thats the case then EFI is untouchable.

The visa application was signed and submitted by the maid and yet DK was the one being charged for visa fraud. She made no false statement when she didn't even sign the visa application. So according to your reasoning, DK should have been untouchable. But she wasn't. And in the EFI case, they were the ones that hired those Indian workers and if you go through the visa application requirements, it requires an employer's statement or consent to hiring those workers and attesting that no other domestic workers could be found and that those specialized workers were required and that it would be in accordance to US labor laws.



This was not mentioned in the article. Unless there have been further revelations.

As to how the labor dept found out ? there are many ways. Disgruntled employees who lost a job for a start. This is the biggest source for tipoffs.
I am well aware of pay disputes and labor law complaints work. In my course of work, I usually come across several labor law complaints and disputes when those issues overlapped into areas of my expertise and the key thing was that before any complaint can be made, the employee has to be the one signing off the complaint and attesting to all facts. So before any investigation can begin, a complainant or an employee has to make the alleged complaint. There was no whistleblower status in effect. Otherwise it would have taken a different course. Based on the facts of the case, it is easy to infer that it was those Indian workers who complained about the pay.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 00:40
You would be right if the US was a monolithic block where all decisions and actions are made by and carried out by a singular overseeing authority.

No doesn't work that way. After all the caption reads on the complaint as the United States vs. party or United States vs. defendant, insinuating that this person who is bringing the action has the full backing and authority of the US government. That is how the department agencies work. If they slap fines or press charges, they are acting on the authority and full backing of the US government. So your argument is meritless.



BTW all countries have double standards. It's called having an affective foreign policy.
Still it doesn't stop others from pointing out the double standards. It is called having an effective foreign policy.



As I said, all parties involved.
The US gov't could have nipped in the bud if they had apologize in the first place but instead were inordinate and stubborn and refused to play ball until GoI made a huge stink about it and started pulling out moves. Only then did the US gov't react and backtrack in a fashion.


If they did, then why?

I wonder why this whole thing was handled by the US administration the way it was.

Because the US attorney Preet Bharara and his minions wanted to send a message to DK and thought that they could make an example out of her without suffering any consequences. SoS Kerry knew about this beforehand and signed off it. After GoI reacted and made their moves, SoS Kerry had to backtrack and told Preet Bharara to let DK go.



I wouldn't call their reporting proper but their reporting did force MMS's hand.
Yes it was proper because DK was not allowed to leave the US. If she tried, she would have been arrested. The US did not recognize her diplomatic credentials and grant her immunity. It was only after the media forced MMS hand that DK got the necessary credentials and was allowed to leave the country unmolested.



Not sure what laws were broken but if they were this should have been raised through the proper channels.
Taxation laws and labor laws and you can thank the Congress party for that oversight



Again different agencies doing thing's their way leading to a collective blunder. But I agree, this whole DK episode could have (and should have) been better handled.

No it was deliberate on the part of the State and the US Attorney's. They knew what they were doing and went for it because they thought that India would be meek and stand idly while one of their diplomats get molested. It was spinned into a blunder when the whole thing backfired on them.

TopHatter
28 Oct 14,, 00:51
Essentially, Blademaster, what you're saying is "I Have A Frothing Hatred For America (Even Though I Live And Work Here)"

How's that, am I in the ballpark? Why I don't get is why you simply don't come right out and say it?

Have a little moral honesty and just say what's actually seething underneath these "YOU'RE DOING IT TOO!!" posts.

Double Edge
28 Oct 14,, 00:58
The visa application was signed and submitted by the maid and yet DK was the one being charged for visa fraud. She made no false statement when she didn't even sign the visa application. So according to your reasoning, DK should have been untouchable. But she wasn't.
I seem to remember that she had to sign somewhere on the form as the employer who applying for the visa. As i recall she resisted arrest and they had to haul in and process her. This i put down to a lack of proper advice by the embassy.

We've had diplomats in similar situations before, none blew up in this way. Which made it all the more perplexing when it happened.


And in the EFI case, they were the ones that hired those Indian workers and if you go through the visa application requirements, it requires an employer's statement or consent to hiring those workers and attesting that no other domestic workers could be found and that those specialized workers were required and that it would be in accordance to US labor laws.
this is the general requirement to get the visa. Are you sure nothing more is being done ? you make it sound like everything is over and done with, i thought it was just starting.

No Preet Baria kingshit prosecutor making waves in this case is there.

This is why there are so many lawyer jokes :biggrin:


I am well aware of pay disputes and labor law complaints work. In my course of work, I usually come across several labor law complaints and disputes when those issues overlapped into areas of my expertise and the key thing was that before any complaint can be made, the employee has to be the one signing off the complaint and attesting to all facts. So before any investigation can begin, a complainant or an employee has to make the alleged complaint. There was no whistleblower status in effect. Otherwise it would have taken a different course. Based on the facts of the case, it is easy to infer that it was those Indian workers who complained about the pay.
So something has happened between going over and this happening. Did not get paid for the work or they were promised a raise that did not materialise. After working for so long they would get more etc.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 01:24
Essentially, Blademaster, what you're saying is "I Have A Frothing Hatred For America (Even Though I Live And Work Here)"

How's that, am I in the ballpark? Why I don't get is why you simply don't come right out and say it?


38360



Have a little moral honesty and just say what's actually seething underneath these "YOU'RE DOING IT TOO!!" posts.

So I refuse to be a rah rah cheerleader or look the other way while my own country does something that I do not like or agree or If I see a course where an US action is wrong, I will not hesitate to call it out., I am being morally dishonest? You prefer me to be silent?

I do have moral honesty to point out what the double standards are and acknowledge them. It is you that do not display any moral honesty because you equate with calling a spade a spade or calling the kettle black as some form of treason or unpatriotic act and you refuse to acknowledge your own duplicity while criticizing others for duplicity such as you have strongly criticized Russia and other countries. I notice that you get very defensive when somebody points out the duplicity of your country's actions but you applaud others for pointing out the duplicity of their own country's actions. So I find your criticisms as rather petty and unbecoming of you.

Because I dare to puncture your narcissistic view of the US and its policies, I am deemed to be unpatriotic and unAmerican. You know what? You would fit rather well among the staff of the people that sat on the House Committee of unAmerican activities, never minding that the notion of dissidence is a very American trait and steeped into the soul and character of America and its ideals. So in overall, your status of a moderator does certainly suit your personality. :rolleyes:

I bet you spent your school years pining as a hall monitor.

DarthSiddius
28 Oct 14,, 01:41
No doesn't work that way. After all the caption reads on the complaint as the United States vs. party or United States vs. defendant, insinuating that this person who is bringing the action has the full backing and authority of the US government. That is how the department agencies work. If they slap fines or press charges, they are acting on the authority and full backing of the US government. So your argument is meritless.
Of course he has the backing of the US government, doesn't mean, for instance, President Obama himself knew about this.


Still it doesn't stop others from pointing out the double standards. It is called having an effective foreign policy.
Yet I don't see GoI raising this


The US gov't could have nipped in the bud if they had apologize in the first place but instead were inordinate and stubborn and refused to play ball until GoI made a huge stink about it and started pulling out moves. Only then did the US gov't react and backtrack in a fashion.
Could have, would have, should have. You know my position on this. This should have been dealt with more care and subtlety.


Because the US attorney Preet Bharara and his minions wanted to send a message to DK and thought that they could make an example out of her without suffering any consequences. SoS Kerry knew about this beforehand and signed off it. After GoI reacted and made their moves, SoS Kerry had to backtrack and told Preet Bharara to let DK go.
By your own admission it was Preet Bharara who started all this. I'm not sure about Kerry's involvement but if it's true that was a bad judgement call.


Yes it was proper because DK was not allowed to leave the US. If she tried, she would have been arrested. The US did not recognize her diplomatic credentials and grant her immunity. It was only after the media forced MMS hand that DK got the necessary credentials and was allowed to leave the country unmolested.
There was a reason DK was moved to the UN mission. She didn't have immunity before. As to US diplomats being accorded similar courtesy in India. It's a courtesy after all and not law. It's good that this discrepancy was rectified later. Balance to the force was restored.


Taxation laws and labor laws and you can thank the Congress party for that oversight
Again, not well versed with the laws applicable, will defer to you.


No it was deliberate on the part of the State and the US Attorney's. They knew what they were doing and went for it because they thought that India would be meek and stand idly while one of their diplomats get molested. It was spinned into a blunder when the whole thing backfired on them.
So they simply did it because they thought India was meek. They sure showed us!

TopHatter
28 Oct 14,, 02:01
So I refuse to be a rah rah cheerleader or look the other way while my own country does something that I do not like or agree or If I see a course where an US action is wrong, I will not hesitate to call it out., I am being morally dishonest? You prefer me to be silent? Who said I preferred you to be silent? Where did I say that? I didn't.


I do have moral honesty to point out what the double standards are and acknowledge them. It is you that do not display any moral honesty because you equate with calling a spade a spade or calling the kettle black as some form of treason or unpatriotic act and you refuse to acknowledge your own duplicity while criticizing others for duplicity such as you have strongly criticized Russia and other countries. I notice that you get very defensive when somebody points out the duplicity of your country's actions but you applaud others for pointing out the duplicity of their own country's actions. So I find your criticisms as rather petty and unbecoming of you.I don't give two shits when someone points out the duplicity of my country's actions. Facts are facts and I stand by them even when the United States has egg on it's face. You on the other hand are absolutely enraged when somebody points out a problem, systemic or not, with India. It practically pours out of you. Not sure if you've noticed or not but your (purported) pious and noble motives are amazingly transparent.


Because I dare to puncture your narcissistic view of the US and its policies, I am deemed to be unpatriotic and unAmerican. You know what? You would fit rather well among the staff of the people that sat on the House Committee of unAmerican activities, never minding that the notion of dissidence is a very American trait and steeped into the soul and character of America and its ideals. So in overall, your status of a moderator does certainly suit your personality. :rolleyes:Ohhhh where to begin.
My narcissistic view of the US and its policies? Sorry, no such thing. My eyes are wide open to the failings my country. Most Americans are in fact. When scandals occur, we hang our dirty laundry out for all to see. We don't immediately take to Internet message boards and scream about how bad other country's are too.

I don't know who deemed you unpatriotic or unAmerican. It certainly wasn't me. I asked when you were planning on coming right out and saying what you clearly feel but are wrapping in noble motives, most recently, "dissidence".

Oh and your snide comparison of my Modship to the HUAC isn't earning you any points either. You've got something to say about my Moderating decisions or anything else to do with a Moderator's status, you can do it via PM. You don't bring it up in public. That's been a rule here long before I became a Moderator. But you know that already.


I bet you spent your school years pining as a hall monitor.

No, I was pining to be a message board moderator.

Double Edge
28 Oct 14,, 03:38
However the view in India was from the beginning was shaped by the media narrative of a calculated insult to the Nation.
This is a difficult one and needs careful handling.

The slightest development is amplified which then gets force multiplied with social media. Its so temporary and the next cycle hits and everything is forgotten and its 'entertain us' again. The english media is the worst offender. Regional i don't think is any where as bad.

if you dare say anything about it they will scream police state.

I saw a poll sometime back that went along the lines only 30% of westerners believe what they read or hear in the media whereas for Indians that figure is 70%.

The predominant media in India is TV, everybody watches it. internet and printed stuff is much less.

It will take time.

zraver
28 Oct 14,, 04:16
1. DK was not a diplomat

2. Its often easier to fine a corporate person than prosecute a natural person in American business

3. watching BM have another meltdown is more entertaining than watching sportscasters try to avoid saying Redskins

4. If I made as many racist comments as he did I'd be banned, must be nice to have brown skin.

TopHatter
28 Oct 14,, 04:37
4. If I made as many racist comments as he did I'd be banned, must be nice to have brown skin.

That is exactly what does NOT need to be said.

bolo121
28 Oct 14,, 05:11
This is a difficult one and needs careful handling.

The slightest development is amplified which then gets force multiplied with social media. Its so temporary and the next cycle hits and everything is forgotten and its 'entertain us' again. The english media is the worst offender. Regional i don't think is any where as bad.

if you dare say anything about it they will scream police state.

I saw a poll sometime back that went along the lines only 30% of westerners believe what they read or hear in the media whereas for Indians that figure is 70%.

The predominant media in India is TV, everybody watches it. internet and printed stuff is much less.

It will take time.

Indeed, It was this feedback loop that boosted it up to such a high level.
It became all about 'insult', and loss of face.

Bigfella
28 Oct 14,, 10:19
I will take vsdoc/doppelganger/SB any day any time of the week over Oracle. In fact, you are quite welcome to have Oracle since Oracle would play the part of a fawning bootlicker quite admirably to your narcissistic colonial image of yourself. Please give him a visa to your country. Both countries would be the better for it.

Blademaster's Law: As an online discussion involving BM grows longer, the probability of a racist comment about white people or racist epithet directed at a white person approaches 1 ó​ that is, if an online discussion involving BM (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later he will slip in a racist comment about white folk or racially abuse a board member. Once such a reference is made BM is deemed to have lost the argument.

Always a matter of when, not if.

commander
28 Oct 14,, 14:17
Essentially, Blademaster, what you're saying is "I Have A Frothing Hatred For America (Even Though I Live And Work Here)"

How's that, am I in the ballpark? Why I don't get is why you simply don't come right out and say it?

Have a little moral honesty and just say what's actually seething underneath these "YOU'RE DOING IT TOO!!" posts.

TH, isn't a good citizen supposed to point out the flaws of his/her own government ? or is it that you play along with your government no matter what they do. Oh wait..... ;)

commander
28 Oct 14,, 14:23
There was a reason DK was moved to the UN mission. She didn't have immunity before. As to US diplomats being accorded similar courtesy in India. It's a courtesy after all and not law. It's good that this discrepancy was rectified later. Balance to the force was restored.

Because IIRC at that time it was contested since it was 'outside' the embassy premises she loses her immunity and not the immunity itself or something of that sort. Hence India moved her to a UN mission, I maybe wrong but this is what I can remember from top of my head.



So they simply did it because they thought India was meek. They sure showed us!

Well they did show us a lot of times before if you can remember, Dr. Kalam was frisked in the airport too. DK incident was the icing on the cake where a Indian women was ass raped in a US jail.

commander
28 Oct 14,, 14:30
1. DK was not a diplomat

2. Its often easier to fine a corporate person than prosecute a natural person in American business

3. watching BM have another meltdown is more entertaining than watching sportscasters try to avoid saying Redskins

4. If I made as many racist comments as he did I'd be banned, must be nice to have brown skin.

1. Yes she was and it was still contended by the US authorities, about it's technicality on her being a grade below or whatever.

2. Shows you have two rule books. One for your own folks and the other for your guests. Sure have it your way.

4. Oh the irony :rolleyes:

commander
28 Oct 14,, 14:35
And just to remind some of the folks here, in the old thread there were even citations from your own rule book where it was not necessary to do a cavity search but still your law enforcement gone ahead with that all the while without knowing she is a Diplomat, oh the arrogance. THAT is the issue, me and BM are not supporting DK for what she did but rather how she was treated for such petty issues. What she did is absolutely wrong, no questions about it.

Officer of Engineers
28 Oct 14,, 14:57
The accusation of a cavity search was done by DK. The US Marshalls have stated that all they have done was a strip search as per procedure for all suspects, no exceptions. A cavity search is only done when warranted for contraband of which DK was not suspected.

TopHatter
28 Oct 14,, 15:48
TH, isn't a good citizen supposed to point out the flaws of his/her own government ?

If I thought for one second that was Blademaster's motivation for these threads, I'd say you have a point. But because it's blindingly obvious what his motivation is, I'd say you don't.

News reports posts here in threads that demonstrate systemic and highly embarrassing problems with India are a festering source of rage to him. As I said before, it practically pours out of him like steam from a teakettle.
He can't dismiss those posts as false propaganda so he has to resort to Tu Quoque retorts, attacking Western countries when similarly embarrassing examples pop up in there as well.

Otherwise known as the "And You Are Lynching Negroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes)" defense.

His hatred for the West, personified in the United States and to a lesser extent Great Britain (bonus points for Commonwealth countries) is manifest in his snarling comments about BigFella's supposed "narcissistic colonial image"

As well, an Indian that supports or agrees with the West in this regard is usually dismissed with venom as a "fawning bootlicker", like Oracle.

I don't know if you or he has noticed or not but his motivations are more than clear to just about anybody reading his posts. THAT'S the kind of moral honesty that I'd like him to show. Not his pious (but obviously fake) defense of "dissidence is a very American trait and steeped into the soul and character of America and its ideals." He doesn't give a single shit about "very American traits", nor the "soul and character of America and its ideals". I'd just like to see him admit that for a change.


or is it that you play along with your government no matter what they do. Oh wait..... ;)
So much easier to frame this into a nice neat black-and-white argument isn't it.

Because in his (and yours, apparently) world, the only alternative is to be a "rah rah cheerleader" for the U.S., right? ;)

commander
28 Oct 14,, 16:22
If I thought for one second that was Blademaster's motivation for these threads, I'd say you have a point. But because it's blindingly obvious what his motivation is, I'd say you don't.

News reports posts here in threads that demonstrate systemic and highly embarrassing problems with India are a festering source of rage to him. As I said before, it practically pours out of him like steam from a teakettle.
He can't dismiss those posts as false propaganda so he has to resort to Tu Quoque retorts, attacking Western countries when similarly embarrassing examples pop up in there as well.

Otherwise known as the "And You Are Lynching Negroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes)" defense.


TH, IMV I have seen western posters in WAB and much more IRL with attitude towards any issue you(not you ofc) say "3rd World country" has. The sort of Holier-than-thou attitude even though you(again not you) fail to acknowledge that the same flaws plague your country too. It's that attitude that's the problem that invokes the "you have shit on yourself too" comment when someone tries to deal us with the kind of high handedness.



As well, an Indian that supports or agrees with the West in this regard is usually dismissed with venom as a "fawning bootlicker", like Oracle.

I don't want to talk about you-know-who. But I have to give an example for that, he was more than happy to be under colonial rule than be in a republic India. His resent for anything India was evident in so many posts so much so he argued many a times for the sake of it. I will stop here as I don't want to get into mud slinging.



I don't know if you or he has noticed or not but his motivations are more than clear to just about anybody reading his posts. THAT'S the kind of moral honesty that I'd like him to show. Not his pious (but obviously fake) defense of "dissidence is a very American trait and steeped into the soul and character of America and its ideals." He doesn't give a single shit about "very American traits", nor the "soul and character of America and its ideals". I'd just like to see him admit that for a change.


Not something I am qualified to discuss since I am not a US citizen but I will say this, I think you and others are prejudiced when it comes to BM.


So much easier to frame this into a nice neat black-and-white argument isn't it.

Because in his (and yours, apparently) world, the only alternative is to be a "rah rah cheerleader" for the U.S., right? ;)

I am not saying you personally are one, although you are part of a society that makes that government. US government is solely responsible for the creation of almost all bigwig terrorist organizations that I can think of. The term and concept of good and bad terrorism was coined/developed by your own Intelligence agencies. Not saying there was nothing good done by the USA. As much good done by your country is trumped ten times over by all the bad things that it created. Atleast from outside of US (to some of us) it looks like the people are hand in hand with the wrongdoings of your government. If you are not protesting them then what do you want us to believe ? that you are protesting silently ?

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 16:54
1. DK was not a diplomat

Yes she was. Your assertion of DK not being a diplomat flies in the face of diplomatic credentials already established through the UN.



2. Its often easier to fine a corporate person than prosecute a natural person in American business
And that makes it ok to arrest and strip search an Indian diplomat?



3. watching BM have another meltdown is more entertaining than watching sportscasters try to avoid saying Redskins

Only in your dreams you would think I would be having a meltdown.



4. If I made as many racist comments as he did I'd be banned, must be nice to have brown skin.
again you are so fond of using window dressing words when the substance was not there. What racial comments did I make? Flinging out claims that racist comments were made does not make it true as it has become your customary habit.

ajhax
28 Oct 14,, 17:00
US government is solely responsible for the creation of almost all bigwig terrorist organizations that I can think of.

Such as Hamas, Hezbollah, PKK, LTTE, FARC, GIA, Boko Haram, LeT, Chechens and Naxalites? :whome:
Even for Taliban and Al-Qaeda the primary culprit is Pakistan and not US.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 17:07
Who said I preferred you to be silent? Where did I say that? I didn't.
No but you were insinuating that I should not bring up past acts of duplicity by US. You keep harping on the alleged fact that I say " you did it too" when I am rebutting the moral position taken by some posters.



I don't give two shits when someone points out the duplicity of my country's actions. Facts are facts and I stand by them even when the United States has egg on it's face. You on the other hand are absolutely enraged when somebody points out a problem, systemic or not, with India. It practically pours out of you. Not sure if you've noticed or not but your (purported) pious and noble motives are amazingly transparent.

You have a very selective memory. In the past ten years, I have pointed out many problems with India including its policies. The only problem I had is when Minskaya started keeping track of all rapes occuring in India. If I did the same thing with US, believe me, you and many others would be calling for my head on the basis that I was trolling and bringing up rape news every time it happens in the US. There were at least 10 instances of rape that occured in US in the last several weeks and yet I didn't bring those up because it served no purpose. We already know that we have a rape problem in US and elsewhere. When I started questioning the motivation of Minskaya, I was told to shut up by you and by Oracle and by others.

Then when I started questioning the basis of US's actions and beliefs against others, you led the charge in trying to silence me by the very actions of questioning my motivations and then starting to question my loyalty and others.



Ohhhh where to begin.
My narcissistic view of the US and its policies? Sorry, no such thing. My eyes are wide open to the failings my country. Most Americans are in fact. When scandals occur, we hang our dirty laundry out for all to see. We don't immediately take to Internet message boards and scream about how bad other country's are too.

Ooooh where to begin.... let's start with the fact that when I questioned JD(sp?) point of view towards Russia and Crimea and I started pointing out counterexamples to show why his argument was not a good argument to begin with and you immediately jumped on my back and accused me of engaging in tuo quo blah arguments.



I don't know who deemed you unpatriotic or unAmerican. It certainly wasn't me. I asked when you were planning on coming right out and saying what you clearly feel but are wrapping in noble motives, most recently, "dissidence".
No but you strongly implied it in that personal attack.



Oh and your snide comparison of my Modship to the HUAC isn't earning you any points either. You've got something to say about my Moderating decisions or anything else to do with a Moderator's status, you can do it via PM. You don't bring it up in public. That's been a rule here long before I became a Moderator. But you know that already.
Then don't ever question my motivations or make insinuations about my loyalty in public. You opened that door, not me. When you said "what you're saying is "I Have A Frothing Hatred For America (Even Though I Live And Work Here)," you implied that I was unloyal and unpatriotic. That was an ad hominem attack and you, of all, should have known better and it has been a rule long before you became a moderator. You have higher standards to follow.




No, I was pining to be a message board moderator.

Ok then follow the standards expected of a moderator instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks when you implicitly questioned my loyalty.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 17:38
If I thought for one second that was Blademaster's motivation for these threads, I'd say you have a point. But because it's blindingly obvious what his motivation is, I'd say you don't.
And I say that you are oblivious to the point I was trying to make.



News reports posts here in threads that demonstrate systemic and highly embarrassing problems with India are a festering source of rage to him. As I said before, it practically pours out of him like steam from a teakettle.
And you totally ignored the context that Minskaya was undergoing and the insinuations. The whole thing started when she stated that India was messed up and she conveniently left out the fact that those kind of rapes were not unique to India but also occurred in US and other countries. What she ignored the fact that India was doing something about it and not letting it be sweep under the rugs. And then she and you jumped on me for not willing to tolerate the criticisms.

You are really a piece of work.



He can't dismiss those posts as false propaganda so he has to resort to Tu Quoque retorts, attacking Western countries when similarly embarrassing examples pop up in there as well.
And that gives you the right to sermonize other countries and lecture them on morality when our country has glaring failures? Or the fact that some of our actions have led to these kind of results that we wanted to avoid in the first place? You are really good at deflecting failures and moving the goalposts whenever it suited your narrative. As for dismissing false propaganda, you are doing a pretty good job of it when it comes to Russians trying to defend their country's viewpoints and using news articles.



Otherwise known as the "And You Are Lynching Negroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes)" defense.
Wow where did that come from? Now you are bringing up the lynching negroes defense. You are just pulling shit out of your ass in trying to make a vain feeble counterargument. What's next? Claims that I am engaging in conspiracy theories and tinfoil hats? You know that the lynching negroes defense is a strawman's argument designed to be satrical. You know what it is funny? If I started throwing out that term in the rape threads, you would have immediately claim that I can't withstand criticisms of India.

By throwing out that "lynching negroes defense" you are, in effect, admitting that you cannot withstand any criticism of your country by others unless it fits your own narrative.



His hatred for the West, personified in the United States and to a lesser extent Great Britain (bonus points for Commonwealth countries) is manifest in his snarling comments about BigFella's supposed "narcissistic colonial image"
You could not be more wrong. I do not hate the West. If I did, I would be a totally different person and not trying to help people in my area. As for Britain, yes I despised the British for what they have done as Chinese and Koreans and Philippines have despise the Japanese for what the Japanese have done to them. As the Jews despised the Nazis for what they have done to the Jews. But I do not hate the British people right now because they didn't do anything to the Indians but that doesn't mean that I will stand by idly and watch and listen to the British people and their heirs or cousins claim that the British Raj was a good thing for India. It is full of BS and it need to be rebutted. BigFella was the one that started making mocking comments on my views and ridiculing our grievances against the British Empire so I rebutted him in the same way.

If you can't handle that, that's your problem, not mine.



As well, an Indian that supports or agrees with the West in this regard is usually dismissed with venom as a "fawning bootlicker", like Oracle.
Yeah if you were following the exchange more closely, you would have realized that Oracle started the whole thing by questioning me and my heritage and my background and accused me of being a fanboy and other things. He was the one that claimed to be a true Indian and I wasn't Indian at all and tried to silence me on topics related to India and make it so that his posts was only worth listening to because he was a true Indian and I was not.



I don't know if you or he has noticed or not but his motivations are more than clear to just about anybody reading his posts. THAT'S the kind of moral honesty that I'd like him to show. Not his pious (but obviously fake) defense of "dissidence is a very American trait and steeped into the soul and character of America and its ideals." He doesn't give a single shit about "very American traits", nor the "soul and character of America and its ideals". I'd just like to see him admit that for a change.

I would like you to admit for a change that you wanted me to go along with whatever the US says and accept the position of the US as it is compared to others. Just as the people of US made the mistake of going along with the narrative of the Bush administration when it came to Iraq and WMDs and when the French refused to go along with it saying it was a mistake, the French were called froggies and insults and those who agreed with the French were instantly termed as traitors and unpatriotic Americans. As it turned out, the French were largely correct in the first place and we, the US, wasted almost 2-3 trillion dollars on the Iraq front because we failed to question the motivations and the positions that the US took.

And that is what you want me to do. Stay silent on the motivations and reasons behind the US stand. For example, I questioned several posters with respect to Crimea and Russia because it could have been avoided in the first place. The outcome was so plainly obvious due to geopolitics considerations and realities. But, no you turned it around and made it like I hated the US and the West so much.

Your use of the words, "moral honesty" is actually quite dishonest since you are insinuating the fact that I am not American or patriotic or whatever agenda you have.



So much easier to frame this into a nice neat black-and-white argument isn't it.
Only in your world because it would be so easier to justify your stance and your points.



Because in his (and yours, apparently) world, the only alternative is to be a "rah rah cheerleader" for the U.S., right? ;)
And in your world, it would be so much easier to paint me as the enemy of US and the West as someone who hates the US and the West and then it would be so easy to dismiss my posts and my arguments, which is the very same tactic as other oppressive regimes like to use when they want to silence their opponents.

Instead of responding to my counterpoints, you engaged in this whole drama of "tuo quo arguments" and this is a new one, "lynching negroes defense" which I find to be distasteful since you very well know that a lot of those lynchings went unpunished and not and making a mockery of those unpunished lynchings speaks to your true nature and your "moral honesty"

How about this for a change? When those countries started criticizing the US for its human rights record, what did a lot of people in the US say? They used their own version of "lynching negroes defense" to pooh pooh those criticisms no matter how valid those criticisms may be irrespective of the criticizing country's own problems.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 17:49
Blademaster's Law: As an online discussion involving BigFella grows longer, the probability of a racist comment about non-white people or racist epithet directed at a non-white person approaches 1 —​ that is, if an online discussion involving BigFella(regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later he will slip in a racist comment about non-white folk or racially abuse a board member. Once such a reference is made BigFella is deemed to have lost the argument.

Always a matter of when, not if.

Fixed it for you.

Red Team
28 Oct 14,, 17:56
:pop:

YellowFever
28 Oct 14,, 18:00
:pop:


It's the same shit GIGO.

Not even worthy of a popcorn emoticon anymore.

Double Edge
28 Oct 14,, 18:55
1. Yes she was and it was still contended by the US authorities, about it's technicality on her being a grade below or whatever.
No Z is right on this. At the time she was apprehended she had no immunity. So she had to be promoted post facto to get off the charge.

Anyway, this is all water under the bridge, old news.

What is going on with the main topic of the thread ? that seems to have been forgotten.

No mention in my daily about this affair yet btw.

citanon
28 Oct 14,, 19:17
The premise of this thread is ridiculous.

In one case you had a woman hiding all over town and claiming to the authorities that her employer kept her in slave like conditions. In the second case you had civil regulators discovering after the fact that some workers who were here for a short period to help with an office move were underpaid.

Had any of those workers in the later case did what the woman in the DK case did, that is, "escape" from the employers, hid all over town and claimed to the local authorities that he/she and compatriots were being kept in "slave like conditions", the local police might have mounted a SWAT raid on the office and arrested everyone there. If that had happened, BM would be writing a thread about how the outrageous treatment of Indians continue with police harassment of businesses employing Indian workers.

Let's review. DK case: woman "escapes" from her employer and claimed that she was enslaved. Criminal authorities got involved. Criminal charges were filed. EFI case: civil regulators discovered underpayment through an anonymous tip. No claims of slavery from any party involved. No dramatic escapes real or feigned. Workers involved already back in India. No criminal charges filed.

And we wasted 5 pages of posts on this.... :rolleyes:

YellowFever
28 Oct 14,, 19:19
No Z is right on this. At the time she was apprehended she had no immunity. So she had to be promoted post facto to get off the charge.


Well, this thread is all about splitting hairs so... :biggrin:

Khobragade was a consular which could be technically called a diplomat but she did not enjoy full diplomatic immunity.

It was only after the fact of the arrest (as you stated) that the Indian govt. requested her status be changed to UN Mission, WHICH THE U.S., AS THE HOST NATION, APPROVED, in order for her to be granted full immunity.

So technically Khobragade was a diplomat (albeit a low level one with only consulate immunity).

The charges against her were dropped because she enjoy diplomatic immunity AT THE TIME OF THE INDICTMENT.

Although I have no idea why or how the charges were reinstated afterwards.

Most likely to make sure she doesn't re-enter the country again with full immunity?

TopHatter
28 Oct 14,, 19:23
Blademaster,
I think it would be a really good idea if I cleared the air and set all my cards on the table. So here it is:

I don't question your loyalty or your patriotism. I never have, and neither was it ever my intention to do so implicitly. However you clearly believe that I have, so for that I do apologize.

I do not and have never asked or expected you to stay silent on anything regarding the national events of any country. Nor have I ever, explicitly or implicitly, wanted you to "go along with whatever the US says and accept the position of the US" nor play the part of a pro-US cheerleader. That brand of blind herd-like ultra-nationalist mentality is utterly abhorrent to me personally and the thought of expecting or demanding it from somebody else is repugnant. If I have given you that perception as well, then I am again very sorry.

I do not view the United States or it's foreign or domestic policies through rose-colored glasses. I never have.
I will be the very first to say that the United States can and has made a mockery of its own democratic principles with its actions, at home and abroad.

Regarding criticism or news reports of embarrassing events in India, it has been my own personal observation that your go-to response has typically been to highlight similar problems in the West, particularly the United States. In effect, a "you too" reply. In future I will avoid replying to your similar posts as we clearly have extremely divergent opinions on this and no good can come from publicly attacking each others motives and intentions.

That's all I have.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 19:35
Replying to you in PM. This is my last post on this.

antimony
28 Oct 14,, 19:49
Pretty disappointing set of posts here


If I thought for one second that was Blademaster's motivation for these threads, I'd say you have a point. But because it's blindingly obvious what his motivation is, I'd say you don't.

News reports posts here in threads that demonstrate systemic and highly embarrassing problems with India are a festering source of rage to him. As I said before, it practically pours out of him like steam from a teakettle.
He can't dismiss those posts as false propaganda so he has to resort to Tu Quoque retorts, attacking Western countries when similarly embarrassing examples pop up in there as well.

Otherwise known as the "And You Are Lynching Negroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes)" defense.


I know very well what BM's intentions are. I do not subscribe to his views most of the time and am not well known about my
"hatred for the West, personified in the United States and to a lesser extent Great Britain (bonus points for Commonwealth countries)"

However, does that lessen his point? What is true, is true, be it in India or the US.

It is also highly disappointing (and disgusting) to see some of the respected member of the forum make is a white skin vs. brown skin issue.

On the other hand, I am surprised at Blade's surprise that there is: :eek: UNDERPAYMENT ISSUES IN THE USA :eek:

One only has to go to the Home Depot parking lots; the guys standing there are not being paid minimum wage. I have little sympathy for Khobragade, her maid or the guys in Blade's article. Its capitalism. Everyone knew what they were going to get paid, or were going to pay and went ahead with their actions anyway. In this particular case, I suspect there is some visa fraud going on.

The workers were being paid in India Rupees. That probably means that they were being paid their salaries back in India and an allowance in the US. However, people brought in Business visas are NOT allowed to work, so there may be a clear violation of visa rules here rather than underpayment.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 20:37
On the other hand, I am surprised at Blade's surprise that there is: :eek: UNDERPAYMENT ISSUES IN THE USA :eek:


I am not surprised that there is underpayment issues. You mistake and mischaracterize my objection to double standards as surprise that there is underpayment issues. I deal with them on a monthly basis.



One only has to go to the Home Depot parking lots; the guys standing there are not being paid minimum wage. I have little sympathy for Khobragade, her maid or the guys in Blade's article. Its capitalism. Everyone knew what they were going to get paid, or were going to pay and went ahead with their actions anyway. In this particular case, I suspect there is some visa fraud going on.

See the highlighted bold part. That was the part that got DK arrested. Why were the EFI executives not arrested? That is what I am referring to and my main point. If there was visa fraud going on, I would like to see the EFI executives be subjected to the same treatment that DK got.



The workers were being paid in India Rupees. That probably means that they were being paid their salaries back in India and an allowance in the US. However, people brought in Business visas are NOT allowed to work, so there may be a clear violation of visa rules here rather than underpayment.
Then where are the indictment charges as it has been done in the DK case? Where are the arrest warrants as it has been done in the DK case?

One of the biggest points that was made in the DK case was that US authorities would have done the same for anybody else. Now comes the proof in the pudding. Here we got a company with executives engaging in visa fraud as you have alluded to and the only treatment we have seen is no indictment charges, no arrest warrants for visa fraud, only slaps of fines and monetary damages.

And by the way, I neither subscribe to most of your views but that goes without saying. :rolleyes:

gf0012-aust
28 Oct 14,, 21:29
I am not surprised that there is underpayment issues. You mistake and mischaracterize my objection to double standards as surprise that there is underpayment issues. I deal with them on a monthly basis.



See the highlighted bold part. That was the part that got DK arrested. Why were the EFI executives not arrested? That is what I am referring to and my main point. If there was visa fraud going on, I would like to see the EFI executives be subjected to the same treatment that DK got.


Then where are the indictment charges as it has been done in the DK case? Where are the arrest warrants as it has been done in the DK case?

One of the biggest points that was made in the DK case was that US authorities would have done the same for anybody else. Now comes the proof in the pudding. Here we got a company with executives engaging in visa fraud as you have alluded to and the only treatment we have seen is no indictment charges, no arrest warrants for visa fraud, only slaps of fines and monetary damages.

And by the way, I neither subscribe to most of your views but that goes without saying. :rolleyes:

I'm not in position to cite US Law, but I would have expected that Visa Fraud charges can only be directly applied to the passport/visa holder

anyone else involved in promoting that activity would need to be prosecuted and pursued at the country where that activity was initiated, at some point there would be persons at the arrival/delivery end who could be gathered up under the umbrella of being accessories etc.....

commander
28 Oct 14,, 21:34
The premise of this thread is ridiculous.

In one case you had a woman hiding all over town and claiming to the authorities that her employer kept her in slave like conditions. In the second case you had civil regulators discovering after the fact that some workers who were here for a short period to help with an office move were underpaid.

Had any of those workers in the later case did what the woman in the DK case did, that is, "escape" from the employers, hid all over town and claimed to the local authorities that he/she and compatriots were being kept in "slave like conditions", the local police might have mounted a SWAT raid on the office and arrested everyone there. If that had happened, BM would be writing a thread about how the outrageous treatment of Indians continue with police harassment of businesses employing Indian workers.

Let's review. DK case: woman "escapes" from her employer and claimed that she was enslaved. Criminal authorities got involved. Criminal charges were filed. EFI case: civil regulators discovered underpayment through an anonymous tip. No claims of slavery from any party involved. No dramatic escapes real or feigned. Workers involved already back in India. No criminal charges filed.

And we wasted 5 pages of posts on this.... :rolleyes:

Well not to drag this further, here are the similarities in both the cases and that's not,

DK:

1. Domestic help hired in India with an agreement that salary will be paid in Indian rupees (whatever the sum maybe) + accommodation + food + her regular week off's.
2. The maid understood she was being ripped off after getting to know the minimum wage and the technicality that if a domestic worker is hired for one's house that doesn't come under Indian jurisdiction rather US laws are applicable, so the contract she had with DK in India is not applicable.
3. The maid filed a case on DK with the help of PB the prosecutor and with his help deports her entire family from India to the US.
4. Charges are on the basis of the visa fraud and some here even accused that of being a human trafficking. Fair enough.
5. US authorities contended even though she is a consular her immunity doesn't apply outside the consulate (?)
6. She gets arrested in public and a strip search and allegedly cavity search was carried out.

EFI:

1.The firm hired a few Indian professionals with an agreement made in India that promised them a certain salary in rupees + allowances to take care of their accommodation and food.
2. The employees understood they are being ripped off and one of them complains to the authorities.
3. The authorities slap charges against the company and it's directors and were asked to pay a fine and were let go.


THIS is what we were complaining about. Why is one more serious than the other ?

commander
28 Oct 14,, 21:45
No Z is right on this. At the time she was apprehended she had no immunity. So she had to be promoted post facto to get off the charge.

Anyway, this is all water under the bridge, old news.

What is going on with the main topic of the thread ? that seems to have been forgotten.

No mention in my daily about this affair yet btw.

No she was considered a junior consulate which according to the US authorities is not enough to provide her immunity. But India was contending that she was a consulate no matter what position she was in and is automatically eligible for immunity. When the US didn't budge we promoted her to a UN mission which by default provided her the immunity the US authorities said she didn't have and they had to let her go. There was misunderstanding on both sides on this part on who was right.

Probably was deliberately clogged or just wasn't juicy enough for the daily's ;)

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 21:50
I'm not in position to cite US Law, but I would have expected that Visa Fraud charges can only be directly applied to the passport/visa holder

anyone else involved in promoting that activity would need to be prosecuted and pursued at the country where that activity was initiated, at some point there would be persons at the arrival/delivery end who could be gathered up under the umbrella of being accessories etc.....
If that was so, then DK could not have been charged or arrested. She was not the visa holder or passport holder. The maid was.

Officer of Engineers
28 Oct 14,, 21:53
EFI:

1.The firm hired a few Indian professionals with an agreement made in India that promised them a certain salary in rupees + allowances to take care of their accommodation and food.
2. The employees understood they are being ripped off and one of them complains to the authorities.
3. The authorities slap charges against the company and it's directors and were asked to pay a fine and were let go.This part is not correct. The Indian professionals were already working for EFI in India. They were tasked with a project that had some dealings within the US. They were not hired specifically for this project.

Just because I was tasked to the US does not mean I get paid in US wages

commander
28 Oct 14,, 22:00
This part is not correct. The Indian professionals were already working for EFI in India. They were tasked with a project that had some dealings within the US. They were not hired specifically for this project.

Just because I was tasked to the US does not mean I get paid in US wages

But Sir, please correct me if I am wrong. When a individual works in the US or when someone hires someone to work in the US soil don't they automatically fall under the US jurisdiction and hence US labour laws are applicable the moment they enter USA? If so any previous contracts/agreement/understanding that they had in any other country will automatically becomes void until they get back to their home country, and the fact whether they were hired specifically or not doesn't come in to play.

Officer of Engineers
28 Oct 14,, 22:05
But Sir, please correct me if I am wrong. When a individual works in the US or when someone hires someone to work in the US don't they automatically fall under the US jurisdiction and hence US labour laws are applicable ? If so any previous contracts/agreement/understanding that they had in any other country will automatically becomes void until they get back to their home country, and the fact whether they were hired specifically or not doesn't come in to play.I don't know. There are so many grey areas. I know Indian software producers pushing sales in North America don't get paid in North American wages, ie they're selling a product, nor working on a project but come time for software installation ... do you count that as a product sale or work?

Officer of Engineers
28 Oct 14,, 22:13
One of the biggest points that was made in the DK case was that US authorities would have done the same for anybody else. Now comes the proof in the pudding. Here we got a company with executives engaging in visa fraud as you have alluded to and the only treatment we have seen is no indictment charges, no arrest warrants for visa fraud, only slaps of fines and monetary damages.Was there visa fraud? A lot of things are missing. Even in India, these guys don't work for $1.20 an hour.

commander
28 Oct 14,, 22:16
I don't know. There are so many grey areas. I know Indian software producers pushing sales in North America don't get paid in North American wages, ie they're selling a product, nor working on a project but come time for software installation ... do you count that as a product sale or work?

We would call them as sale since the actual work itself is done in Indian soil. Even in the US IIRC someone had pointed out in the other post that had the maid worked within Indian consulate/Indian sovereign soil in the US (not sure if it's the right term i.e. where India's jurisdiction still applies) the contract she made with DK would have been valid and the US authorities couldn't have initiated any charges. Even the Indian consulate members that are working in the US are paid with respect to Indian laws and I am assuming the same goes here too.

There was a project in the US called Blueseed where they had a ship anchored in the International waters outside the jurisdiction of US laws and the US couldn't do much about it since the actual work per se was not done in US soil, even though they were the residents of the United States of America / were allowed to visit the country in tourism visas' due to the clamps put on H1B visa's. I am guessing it's similar to that

Blueseed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueseed)

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 22:24
This part is not correct. The Indian professionals were already working for EFI in India. They were tasked with a project that had some dealings within the US. They were not hired specifically for this project.

Just because I was tasked to the US does not mean I get paid in US wages

Now you confuse me because in the past your position was that once on US soil, US law takes precedence even over contracts. That was the point you drew from the DK episode. Now you are saying since the contract was entered into on Indian soil and was tasked to US, the contract still runs supreme. Can you clarify your position?

commander
28 Oct 14,, 22:26
Was there visa fraud? A lot of things are missing. Even in India, these guys don't work for $1.20 an hour.

A graduate out of college in India will have about 1000 more graduates that can match his skills and can replace him for even less salary. Till they have a solid experience on their resume they can't expect much but accept the pay they are offered.

Just calculated how much they are paid,

1.20$= 73.42Rs.
per day income = 73.42 x 8 = 587.36Rs
per month = 587.36 x 30 = 17,621 Rs.

Which IS actually inline with what some of the freshers get paid here. When I started not so long back (about 2 years back) I was getting around 12,000Rs per month which translates to 50Rs/hour ~1$ in 2009 and 2010 onwards. I would say these are lucky guys if they are freshers though to getting paid 17k a month as a starter :redface:

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 22:28
I don't know. There are so many grey areas. I know Indian software producers pushing sales in North America don't get paid in North American wages, ie they're selling a product, nor working on a project but come time for software installation ... do you count that as a product sale or work?

Perhaps this news source will help answer your questions. Electronics for Imaging wage violation results in fine by U.S. Department of Labor - Silicon Valley Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2014/10/23/electronics-for-imaging-in-fremont-fined-for.html)


The EFI violations of state and federal labor laws concerned eight employees who were paid to help install a computer network when the company moved its home office from Foster City to Fremont, according to the Mercury News. The data storage provider said that it had brought in some of its IT employees from Bangalore, India, to do the jobs in Fremont between Sept. 8, 2013 and Dec. 21, 2013

So this makes it very clear that it was not part of sales but part of IT support and labor, therefore subject to US labor and visa laws.

YellowFever
28 Oct 14,, 22:34
No she was considered a junior consulate which according to the US authorities is not enough to provide her immunity. But India was contending that she was a consulate no matter what position she was in and is automatically eligible for immunity. When the US didn't budge we promoted her to a UN mission which by default provided her the immunity the US authorities said she didn't have and they had to let her go. There was misunderstanding on both sides on this part on who was right.

Probably was deliberately clogged or just wasn't juicy enough for the daily's ;)

What are you smoking?

"According to U.S. authorities"?????

They fall under The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 and The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963, which are both internatiinal treaties.

Consulate officers enjoy VCCR and diplomats enjoy VCDR and they are similar but not that same.

There is/was no misunderstanding. India was plainly wrong on that issue.

And the Indian govt. might "promote" her to UN Mission but that doesn't make it so until the host nation (U.S.) approves that status.

If the U.S. didn't want to "budge" she wouldn't have been approved for the new status and she wouldn't have been allowed to get on a plane for home.

Officer of Engineers
28 Oct 14,, 22:36
Now you confuse me because in the past your position was that once on US soil, US law takes precedence even over contracts. That was the point you drew from the DK episode. Now you are saying since the contract was entered into on Indian soil and was tasked to US, the contract still runs supreme. Can you clarify your position?I'm thinking the military example here. Working on US bases does not change my pay nor my obligations.

Double Edge
28 Oct 14,, 22:39
http://41.media.tumblr.com/e2997b47d5ff7513683a34a7d32c846c/tumblr_mxtamfkWt91rjwciio6_1280.png

antimony
28 Oct 14,, 22:46
I'm not in position to cite US Law, but I would have expected that Visa Fraud charges can only be directly applied to the passport/visa holder

anyone else involved in promoting that activity would need to be prosecuted and pursued at the country where that activity was initiated, at some point there would be persons at the arrival/delivery end who could be gathered up under the umbrella of being accessories etc.....

The rule of not working under a business visa is a rule by US Immigration authorities, no Indian law is being broken.

Business Visas are applied for by the employing company. If EFI was the employing party then they would be prosecuted. If these were employees of some contracting company then that contracting company would be prosecuted.

commander
28 Oct 14,, 22:47
What are you smoking?

"According to U.S. authorities"?????

They fall under The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961, which is an international treaty.

Consulate officers enjoy VCCR and diplomats enjoy VCDR and they are similar but not that same.

There is/was no misunderstanding. India was plainly wrong on that issue.

And the Indian govt. might "promote" her to UN Mission but that doesn't make it so until the host nation (U.S.) approves that status.

If the U.S. didn't want to "budge" she wouldn't have been approved for the new status and she wouldn't have been allowed to get on a plane for home.

Haha I hope some high quality shit :biggrin:.

Anyway, it was my understanding of how it worked and from what I have seen around. When I said misunderstanding do note I included my country as well. I didn't say the US authorities solely created this mess. Please tell me in simple words then what kind of immunity does a diplomat don't have that a consulate has ? I understand lets say for crimes like murder or espionage things are different but don't a diplomat enjoy a basic immunity from being prosecuted and strip searched for not paying the maid enough ? I mean the maid was free to go where ever she liked , it was not like she was chained in the basement of DK's house or being drugged and kept unconscious was she ?

antimony
28 Oct 14,, 22:49
This part is not correct. The Indian professionals were already working for EFI in India. They were tasked with a project that had some dealings within the US. They were not hired specifically for this project.

Just because I was tasked to the US does not mean I get paid in US wages

If you are tasked with a project in the US, you are working. If you are on a business visa, it is illegal to work at all. I think your presumption is wrong, as working in the US means the possession of a US work visa (H1B, L1 etc.) which means you would be paid US wages and be subject to US labor laws.

Part of this is to prevent job loss by preventing low wages to foreign workers within the US.

commander
28 Oct 14,, 22:50
The rule of not working under a business visa is a rule by US Immigration authorities, no Indian law is being broken.

Business Visas are applied for by the employing company. If EFI was the employing party then they would be prosecuted. If these were employees of some contracting company then that contracting company would be prosecuted.

But weren't they already PART of the company ? i.e. they were not just hired for the sake of this particular task in the US but rather were identified as talented men in their organization that were chosen to help the company move it's network from one place to another ? How does a contractor come under picture. Even if we consider them to be working for a contractor who provides manpower to EFI when EFI chose them to be flown to USA they become the responsibility of EFI and not the contractor ?

antimony
28 Oct 14,, 22:53
I don't know. There are so many grey areas. I know Indian software producers pushing sales in North America don't get paid in North American wages, ie they're selling a product, nor working on a project but come time for software installation ... do you count that as a product sale or work?

Product sales and service sales are accounted separately. But that does not relate to this. The point is, where is the worker working and what is his/ her visa status?

If the answer to the first is "within the US", then the worker HAS to have a work visa and is subject to US laws. The nature of the work and nature of employment contract may determine the type of visa.

If the Indian software producers are employing people in the US, they are subject to the exact same laws.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 22:56
I'm thinking the military example here. Working on US bases does not change my pay nor my obligations.

That's because you were working on a NATO visa and through NATO terms and agreements and repricocity, you were exempt from many of the requirements. However if you brought a personal employee, that employee was subject to US and state labor laws. See here:

http://hermosillo.usconsulate.gov/root/pdfs/visasnato.pdf


Under the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), certain representatives and staff from member countries can enter the US as temporary visas. Under the treaty, they are not subject to normal immigration inspections and documentary requirements. Instead, consular officials decide whether they are admitted. Admission is for as long as the Secretary of State recognizes their status. Employment authorization is obtained through the State Department.

An applicant is classified under the symbol NATO-1, NATO-2, NATO-3, NATO-4, NATO-5, or NATO-6 if seeking admission to the United States under the applicable provision of the Agreement on the Status of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization or the Protocol on the Status of International Military Headquarters Set Up Pursuant to the North Atlantic Treaty. This includes, national representatives, international staff and immediate family members of an individual classified NATO-1 through NATO-6.
However, many armed forces personnel are exempt from passport and visa requirements if they are either attached to NATO Allied Headquarters in the United States and are traveling on official business, or are entering the United States under NATO Status of Forces Agreement. In the case of the later, they must carry official military ID cards and NATO travel orders. When traveling in exempt status, such personnel would generally be entering the United States by military aircraft or naval vessel.
What are the different type of NATO Visa's?
There are different type of NATO Visa can be issued to alien, these are:


NATO-1 Representative of NATO and their immediate relatives.
2.- NATO-2 Representative of NATO and their immediate relatives other than NATO-1.
3.- NATO-3 Employees of NATO and their immediate relatives.
4.- NATO-4 Other employees of NATO and their immediate relatives.
5.- NATO-5 Engineers of NATO and their responsible families.
6.- NATO-6 Military workers of NATO and their responsible families.
7.- NATO-7 Maids of NATO-1 through NATO-6 and their immediate relatives.



Personal Employees
Personal employees, attendants, domestic workers, or servants of individuals who hold a valid NATO-1 through NATO-6 visa, may be issued a NATO-7 visa, if he/she meets the requirements. As part of the application process an interview at the embassy or consulate is required. Proof that you will receive a fair wage, sufficient to financially support yourself, comparable to that being offered in the area of employment in the U.S. is required. In addition, you'll need to demonstrate that you will perform the contracted employment duties. The consular officer will determine whether you are eligible for the NATO-7 visa.

To apply for a NATO-7 visa, the visa applicant must submit each of the items explained in the How to Apply - Required Documentation section above.
Employment Contract - In addition to the above, accompanying the visa application and supporting documents, an employment contract is required, which must be signed by both the employer and the employee. The contract must include each of the following items:

The contract must be in English and also in a language understood by the employee to ensure the employee understands his or her duties and rights regarding salary and working conditions;
2.A guarantee the employee will be compensated at the state or federal minimum or prevailing wage, whichever is greater. Any money deducted for food or lodging, is limited to that which is considered reasonable. (Note: Fair prevailing wage is determined by the consular officer using the Department of Labor Alien Labor Certification/Occupational Employment Survey prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area.)
3.A statement by the employee, promising not to accept any other employment while working for the employer;
4.A statement by the employer, promising to not withhold the passport of the employee; and
5.A statement indicating that both parties understand that the employee cannot be required to remain on the premises after working hours without compensation.

The employer must pay the domestic's initial travel expenses to the United States, and subsequently to the employer's onward assignment, or to the employee's country of normal residence at the termination of the assignment

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 22:59
What are you smoking?

"According to U.S. authorities"?????

They fall under The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 and The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963, which are both internatiinal treaties.

Consulate officers enjoy VCCR and diplomats enjoy VCDR and they are similar but not that same.

There is/was no misunderstanding. India was plainly wrong on that issue.

No she wasn't because there was a gentleman's agreement regarding maids and personal employees just as the one between India and US with US's school for profit as part of US consulate in New Delhi.



And the Indian govt. might "promote" her to UN Mission but that doesn't make it so until the host nation (U.S.) approves that status.

If the U.S. didn't want to "budge" she wouldn't have been approved for the new status and she wouldn't have been allowed to get on a plane for home.
Then certain family members of the US embassy staff would have not been allowed to go home because they would have been charged with tax evasion and fraud. Goes both ways.

YellowFever
28 Oct 14,, 23:00
Haha I hope some high quality shit :biggrin:.

Anyway, it was my understanding of how it worked and from what I have seen around. When I said misunderstanding do note I included my country as well. I didn't say the US authorities solely created this mess. Please tell me in simple words then what kind of immunity does a diplomat don't have that a consulate has ? I understand lets say for crimes like murder or espionage things are different but don't a diplomat enjoy a basic immunity from being prosecuted and strip searched for not paying the maid enough ? I mean the maid was free to go where ever she liked , it was not like she was chained in the basement of DK's house or being drugged and kept unconscious was she ?


Hah, send me some of that good stuff. :biggrin:


A Brief History of U.S. Diplomacy (http://www.usdiplomacy.org/diplomacytoday/law/immunity.php)


Towards the bittom of that page should give you some ideas.

You could make the arguments that the authority handling the DK case could have been more prudent considering the politics involved but how they handled it was well within their right to do so.

antimony
28 Oct 14,, 23:01
But weren't they already PART of the company ? i.e. they were not just hired for the sake of taking them to the US but rather were identified as talented men in their organization that were chosen to help the company move it's network from one place to another ? How does a contractor come under picture. Even if we consider them to be working for a contractor who provides manpower to EFI when EFI chose them to be flown to USA they become the responsibility of EFI and not the contractor ?

If they were company employees then they would have (should have) been brought to the US under L1 visa (intra-company transfer). They could also have used H1B visas but companies have moved away from that (as employees can jump ship under H1B, not possible under L1).

Either way (L1 or H1B), they would automatically have become US employees, filled up an i9, got their SSNs and be no different from, TopHatter or Yellowfever n gterms of applicability of US labor laws. H1B has a requirement that the worker must be paid at least the actual or prevailing wage for the chosen occupation, whichever is higher. There is a extensive wage database that gives the prevailing wage : FLCDataCenter.com (http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=36084&code=27-1014&year=15&source=1)

for L1 I am not aware of a minimum wage but I am sure companies would take precautions not t go below the market rate to avoid DOL problems.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 23:05
Hah, send me some of that good stuff. :biggrin:

I think you have had quite enough by now.



A Brief History of U.S. Diplomacy (http://www.usdiplomacy.org/diplomacytoday/law/immunity.php)


Towards the bittom of that page should give you some ideas.

You could make the arguments that the authority handling the DK case could have been more prudent considering the politics involved but how they handled it was well within their right to do so.

See Note 2: "This table presents general rules. Particularly in the cases indicated, the employees of certain foreign countries may enjoy higher levels of privileges and immunities on the basis of special bilateral agreements."

The Indian embassy maintained that there was a gentleman's agreement wrt to personal staff and were shocked when that agreement was not adhered to in DK's case.

commander
28 Oct 14,, 23:10
And YF, about the US not budging part and that had US not agreed on the status being the host nation part. India started to clamp down hard on your folks here in Delhi and had them surrender their ID's issued by GoI that gave them some special access and privileges that no other countrymen enjoys. So it wasn't that you gracefully accepted the status and let us flow our diplomat out of US ;) you were forced to.

zraver
28 Oct 14,, 23:20
Yes she was. Your assertion of DK not being a diplomat flies in the face of diplomatic credentials already established through the UN.

She was not credentialed as a diplomat through the US State Department. She was a consular official a different category.



And that makes it ok to arrest and strip search an Indian diplomat?

She wasn't a diplomat and was personally involved with what amounted to slavery.



Only in your dreams you would think I would be having a meltdown.

And I still enjoyed watching you do it.



again you are so fond of using window dressing words when the substance was not there. What racial comments did I make? Flinging out claims that racist comments were made does not make it true as it has become your customary habit.

Go back and re-read your words to BF. Swap out the word colonialist for white. As far as I know BF hasn't colonized anything but his arm chair. it was a racial epitaph. You said it, you own it.

Blademaster
28 Oct 14,, 23:25
She was not credentialed as a diplomat through the US State Department. She was a consular official a different category.
Still entitled to some form of immunity and subject to a gentleman's agreement



She wasn't a diplomat and was personally involved with what amounted to slavery.

Really? :rolleyes: Slavery?? then how did the maid have complete freedom of movement and she was happy until she realized that she wasn't getting any more money and tried to blackmail DK? Your slapping lipstick on a pig attempts of window dressing it as slavery does not obliterate the fact that there was no prima facie of slavery and there was no justification for an arrest and strip search.



And I still enjoyed watching you do it.
Enjoy your fantasy and whatever you have been smoking. Oh by the way, Yellow wants some more. Humor him if you can.



Go back and re-read your words to BF. Swap out the word colonialist for white. As far as I know BF hasn't colonized anything but his arm chair. it was a racial epitaph. You said it, you own it.

Read again, genius and it was in response to BF's snide remark about the colonial past. He said it, he owned it and whatever response that came next.

antimony
29 Oct 14,, 00:11
Go back and re-read your words to BF. Swap out the word colonialist for white. As far as I know BF hasn't colonized anything but his arm chair. it was a racial epitaph. You said it, you own it.

You are the one who brought white/ brown into this debate. If this issue was raised by someone whose skin color meets your approval (like BF) would your reaction be different?

YellowFever
29 Oct 14,, 00:50
I think you have had quite enough by now.



See Note 2: "This table presents general rules. Particularly in the cases indicated, the employees of certain foreign countries may enjoy higher levels of privileges and immunities on the basis of special bilateral agreements."

The Indian embassy maintained that there was a gentleman's agreement wrt to personal staff and were shocked when that agreement was not adhered to in DK's case.



And YF, about the US not budging part and that had US not agreed on the status being the host nation part. India started to clamp down hard on your folks here in Delhi and had them surrender their ID's issued by GoI that gave them some special access and privileges that no other countrymen enjoys. So it wasn't that you gracefully accepted the status and let us flow our diplomat out of US ;) you were forced to.


Great.

Get back to me when either of you have anything more concrete than "But they said....."

commander
29 Oct 14,, 00:57
Great.

Get back to me when either of you have anything more concrete than "But they said....."

But where did I say "they said" ? All I said was that we forced you to acknowledge the immunity status and had the diplomat released. And the double standards by the US law enforcement in the land of free.

Blademaster
29 Oct 14,, 00:57
Great.

Get back to me when either of you have anything more concrete than "But they said....."

Then do your reading homework. Go read the closed thread and pore through the various news reports and articles that were put forth for your reading dissemination.

YellowFever
29 Oct 14,, 00:59
Then do your reading homework. Go read the closed thread and pore through the various news reports and articles that were put forth for your reading dissemination.

You made that statement.

It's up to you to back it up and bring it here.

citanon
29 Oct 14,, 01:54
Well not to drag this further, here are the similarities in both the cases and that's not,

DK:

1. Domestic help hired in India with an agreement that salary will be paid in Indian rupees (whatever the sum maybe) + accommodation + food + her regular week off's.
2. The maid understood she was being ripped off after getting to know the minimum wage and the technicality that if a domestic worker is hired for one's house that doesn't come under Indian jurisdiction rather US laws are applicable, so the contract she had with DK in India is not applicable.
3. The maid filed a case on DK with the help of PB the prosecutor and with his help deports her entire family from India to the US.
4. Charges are on the basis of the visa fraud and some here even accused that of being a human trafficking. Fair enough.
5. US authorities contended even though she is a consular her immunity doesn't apply outside the consulate (?)
6. She gets arrested in public and a strip search and allegedly cavity search was carried out.

EFI:

1.The firm hired a few Indian professionals with an agreement made in India that promised them a certain salary in rupees + allowances to take care of their accommodation and food.
2. The employees understood they are being ripped off and one of them complains to the authorities.
3. The authorities slap charges against the company and it's directors and were asked to pay a fine and were let go.


THIS is what we were complaining about. Why is one more serious than the other ?
a: we dont actually know who complained. the tip off was anonymous.

here is the crucial difference: in the efi case the complaint was made to civil authorities alleginging underpayment. in the dk case the accusation was made by the maid herself to criminal authorities alleging trafficking.

the two completely different handling came as a result of the nature of the complaint and the recipient authorities.

if the workers had made similar allegations that they were held against their will, the management may well have been arrested and booked into jail, in which case a strip search would have been standard procedure.

its not the serious of what actually occured. its the nature of the complaint and the avenue.

also, the directors did not pay a fine. the company paid a fine. no allegations were leveled personally vs the directors.

zraver
29 Oct 14,, 02:04
You are the one who brought white/ brown into this debate. If this issue was raised by someone whose skin color meets your approval (like BF) would your reaction be different?

Skin color that meets my approval.... What ever gave you the idea that skin color mattered to me? lets see- defense of Palestinians who are dark skinned, defense of, admiration of and friends with of Colonel Yu a Canadian of Chinese defense, statements that I wish Condolezza Rice would run for office, public statements complaining about how blacks are treated in the US, statements about how the British in India committed a genocide, admiration of Persian culture, a personal religious faith that blends Christianity and Native American faiths, 2 mixed race ex-wives with 3 mixed race kids, specialized in tutoring foreign exchange and students of color.... Yup I sure am hung up on skin color.

BM brought in his usual racist snarkyness and I called him on it. You tried to be just as snarky but snarked up the wrong tree there snarkester.

zraver
29 Oct 14,, 02:51
Still entitled to some form of immunity and subject to a gentleman's agreement

Consular immunity is way different from diplomatic immunity and the crimes she was accused of were not ones to which she was entitled to immunity.


Really? Slavery?? then how did the maid have complete freedom of movement and she was happy until she realized that she wasn't getting any more money and tried to blackmail DK? Your slapping lipstick on a pig attempts of window dressing it as slavery does not obliterate the fact that there was no prima facie of slavery and there was no justification for an arrest and strip search.

yes slavery because that is what it amounted to. Freedom of movement without her passport and with her family threatened isn't very free. There was a lot of evidence of it and had she been prosecuted she would be in federal prison. The arrest was warranted, and strip searches are normal procedure for felony defendants.


Read again, genius and it was in response to BF's snide remark about the colonial past. He said it, he owned it and whatever response that came next.

We've been over this, every oen of the principals in the case from the dirty consular official, the victim and the prosecutor was Indian or of Indian decent and you went on a rampage about white America.

antimony
29 Oct 14,, 03:01
Skin color that meets my approval.... What ever gave you the idea that skin color mattered to me? lets see- defense of Palestinians who are dark skinned, defense of, admiration of and friends with of Colonel Yu a Canadian of Chinese defense, statements that I wish Condolezza Rice would run for office, public statements complaining about how blacks are treated in the US, statements about how the British in India committed a genocide, admiration of Persian culture, a personal religious faith that blends Christianity and Native American faiths, 2 mixed race ex-wives with 3 mixed race kids, specialized in tutoring foreign exchange and students of color.... Yup I sure am hung up on skin color.


Z,

I certainly would not have expected it of you, but then I see this:



4. If I made as many racist comments as he did I'd be banned, must be nice to have brown skin.

It is your quote, even the Mods called you out on it.



BM brought in his usual racist snarkyness and I called him on it. You tried to be just as snarky but snarked up the wrong tree there snarkester.

Blade's comments has been called by many, including the Mods and including me. That gives you the green light to reciprocate? I can even understand you calling out him in particular, but no, you had to go pick on "brown skin".

Yes, you are one of the last persons on the board I would have expected this of, which I why I am doubly surprised.

zraver
29 Oct 14,, 03:18
I was flipping his racism back at him so that hopefully he would see he was going too far in seeing skin color behind every bush.

YellowFever
29 Oct 14,, 04:18
But where did I say "they said" ? All I said was that we forced you to acknowledge the immunity status and had the diplomat released. And the double standards by the US law enforcement in the land of free.

You didn't "force" anything.

The state department acknowledged the immunity status after it was granted by the state department.

In fact, they tried to downplay the incident as soon as it occured.

if it makes your government feel better to think they have "forced" the big bad Americans, feel free to think so but don't try to push that on us.

I wanted to ask this before the other thread was abruptly closed so let me ask ithere:

Why do you think we did what we did to DK and what was in it for us?

Chunder
29 Oct 14,, 04:42
It's the same shit GIGO.

Not even worthy of a popcorn emoticon anymore.

I don't even see what the problem is. I like being cavity searched.

Problem is the dentist stretched my lips doing it.

I've been strip searched before. 'meh'

Albany Rifles
29 Oct 14,, 05:41
Okay everybody....we are getting close to some lines none of us need to cross.

Take a deep breath and think and reason before posting.

We do not intend to squelch legitimate debate and discussion....but the Mods and Admin will not allow a thread to degenerate into a garbage pit.

Self regulate.

Firestorm
29 Oct 14,, 06:04
yes slavery because that is what it amounted to. Freedom of movement without her passport and with her family threatened isn't very free. There was a lot of evidence of it and had she been prosecuted she would be in federal prison. The arrest was warranted, and strip searches are normal procedure for felony defendants.

Can you please post a link from where you got the part about Richard not having access to her passport?

The news about her family in India being threatened by DK's father came from a petition filed by her husband Philip in an Indian court. This was done after Sangeeta Richard had already left DK's house and DK had been contacted by Sangeeta's attorney about paying the rest of her dues. The petition was withdrawn four days later. Sangeeta Richard was able to leave DK's house quite easily (since she had been left alone there) and her family was able to fly from India to the US without anybody stopping them.

Firestorm
29 Oct 14,, 06:26
BM brought in his usual racist snarkyness and I called him on it. You tried to be just as snarky but snarked up the wrong tree there snarkester.

I approve of your righteous indignation about another poster's "racist snarkyness". I would also like to remind you of a cheeky little comment you had slipped in when the DK issue was being discussed:


I wonder what caste the servant was from. I bet if she had been a higher caste there would be a lot less blaming the victim going on.

Link: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/american-politics-economy/64781-indian-diplomat-arrested-nyc-3.html#post942610

Right there you basically accused pretty much every Indian poster who posted on DK's side of being casteist. That is the equivalent of me saying that you would care about a victim more if he/she was white instead of black. Your comment of course was especially ridiculous considering that DK's herself came from a so-called "lower caste". You assumed that since we were Indians, we just had to be casteist right?

Blademaster
29 Oct 14,, 07:01
I was flipping his racism back at him so that hopefully he would see he was going too far in seeing skin color behind every bush.

Only you would think that I would be seeing skin color behind every bush. Tells me a lot about your pysche profile. Only you would think that rebutting to BF's snarkiness in his own language would be racist. Why am I not surprised? :rolleyes:

Blademaster
29 Oct 14,, 07:14
Consular immunity is way different from diplomatic immunity and the crimes she was accused of were not ones to which she was entitled to immunity.

Ok in that case, then why weren't EFI executives charged with the same crimes that DK was charged for doing the same thing that DK did, underpaying the worker?



yes slavery because that is what it amounted to. Freedom of movement without her passport and with her family threatened isn't very free. There was a lot of evidence of it and had she been prosecuted she would be in federal prison. The arrest was warranted, and strip searches are normal procedure for felony defendants.

She was free to come and leave of her own will. The passport she had was a special Indian passport that would have granted her access to many more places than a normal Indian passport and when she reported that she wasn't coming in until she got more money and she wanted to stay in America and attempted to blackmail a high ranking consular officer which is a serious breach of security protocols, she, under the laws of India, abused the privileges of that passport and was not entitled to retain possession of the passport. DK followed the rules of Indian laws governing such passports and reported it and the passport was promptly revoked for security reasons. DK would have been in much bigger trouble if she hadn't reported the issue to her superiors.

The maid's freedom was not restricted at all. She just became an undocumented alien, a situation entirely of her own making. If she was so unhappy with her situation, all she had to do was quit, fly back to India and get a regular passport and fly back to US and make a claim for unpaid wages. She had that complete freedom. So no it was not slavery because slavery means bonded servitude against her will. She was not held against her will. She only claimed she was held against her will because she didn't want to leave America and lose her opportunity to stay in America. She didn't want to take the legal way out and she was not forbidden from using the legal way out. yes there was a court warrant out for her in India and that is because instead of taking the legal way out, she attempted to blackmail a high ranking Indian consular officer and that was a serious breach of security protocols and the Indian courts were well in their rights to investigate that matter further. If she hadn't attempted to blackmail the officer, the courts would have not issued a warrant for her. The maid would have been free and still was free to file a complaint against DK and the court would have taken up her case. But she didn't want to do that because it meant that she would have to leave America and go back to India and she couldn't get in US without going through the long time consuming process of applying for visas and green cards that law abiding citizens would undergo.



We've been over this, every oen of the principals in the case from the dirty consular official, the victim and the prosecutor was Indian or of Indian decent and you went on a rampage about white America.

No you went on a rampage about Indians and their caste systems and engaging in every racial stereotype that could be thrown against Indians and we called you out for it and you went around and started crying and bitching "reverse racism" and flinging out basesless flimsy window dressing words and charges that were completely unmeritorious.

Triple C
29 Oct 14,, 08:42
Blademaster,

Which moral consistency would you prefer? That Khobragade and the US company are both allowed to abuse Indians with illegally poor wages? Or both of them severely punished? I don't see any viable defense of Khobragade's case here. The NY prosecutor is simply doing his job, not letting privileged people drive down labor prices for maids in NYC through illegal practices.

Bigfella
29 Oct 14,, 10:06
Pretty disappointing set of posts here

Given who started the thread & why that shouldn't come as much surprise. When someone digs a cesspit we shouldn't be surprised at what happens next.


It is also highly disappointing (and disgusting) to see some of the respected member of the forum make is a white skin vs. brown skin issue.


I'm not sure if I was included in this (don't know if 'respected' applies :biggrin: ) but I'm happy to explain my explain my post. TH covered most of what I would say about BM & his behaviour, so I'll be brief. I'm not a fan of racial epithets, even when they are packaged in weasel words like 'colonial mentality' designed to allow for deniability. This sort of thing is never more than a few posts away with BM and it isn't just me who cops it. I could descend into the sort of inchoate rage that produces this behaviour, but I'm content to make fun and call out the behaviour for what it is.

Sorry if that is dragging the tone down a bit, but I can't imagine many posters being as polite about something like this. I'm also curious what you think would happen if a white poster repeatedly abused Indians based on their ethnicity. I have a fair idea how I would respond, and it wouldn't be as politely as I have so far. I don't want to make life any more difficult for the Mods, so I'll leave it there.

commander
29 Oct 14,, 11:49
You didn't "force" anything.

The state department acknowledged the immunity status after it was granted by the state department.

In fact, they tried to downplay the incident as soon as it occured.

if it makes your government feel better to think they have "forced" the big bad Americans, feel free to think so but don't try to push that on us.


Fair enough, each country/person entitled to it's/their view. We see it as a egg in the face for the US and you guys see it differently.




I wanted to ask this before the other thread was abruptly closed so let me ask ithere:

Why do you think we did what we did to DK and what was in it for us?

Even I had the same question, but in the previous thread it was kind of mentioned something about someone in the US state department wanting to send a message or humiliate Indian side. Do note that we also are furious of how our diplomat had indulged in such activity. It was also covered that this was a common practice among other countries diplomats as well. BUT just because someone is doing something illegally doesn't give DK the rights to do it herself. But that's a separate issue. The sole reason why it was blown up was when the news broke up about being strip searched and 'allegedly' cavity searched. Had it been just a detention there wouldn't have been much fuss. After all we were shameless to let our former beloved President being frisked in your airport and a number of other high profile figures. You were well within your right to do a strip search and whatever your law permits you to do. BUT we reserve the right to invoke some of the special previliges that your folk enjooyed here. In the previous post there were a lot of moaning when someone accidentally removed an extra barricade. So yeah the question is a mystery to us too. Because some of our diplomats had a similar issue earlier and were settled without making this big a mess resulting in straining diplomatic ties with 2 countries.

zraver
29 Oct 14,, 14:41
I approve of your righteous indignation about another poster's "racist snarkyness". I would also like to remind you of a cheeky little comment you had slipped in when the DK issue was being discussed:



Link: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/american-politics-economy/64781-indian-diplomat-arrested-nyc-3.html#post942610

Right there you basically accused pretty much every Indian poster who posted on DK's side of being casteist. That is the equivalent of me saying that you would care about a victim more if he/she was white instead of black. Your comment of course was especially ridiculous considering that DK's herself came from a so-called "lower caste". You assumed that since we were Indians, we just had to be casteist right?

Yup I made a mistake. But my mistake months ago doesn't excuse someone deliberate acts today.

Blademaster
29 Oct 14,, 16:57
Blademaster,

Which moral consistency would you prefer? That Khobragade and the US company are both allowed to abuse Indians with illegally poor wages? Or both of them severely punished? I don't see any viable defense of Khobragade's case here. The NY prosecutor is simply doing his job, not letting privileged people drive down labor prices for maids in NYC through illegal practices.

I expect the EFI executives to receive the same treatment that DK got. Treatment needs to be uniform all over US, not just in one particular location. Otherwise, too many inferences can be drawn and not necessarily in a good way.

Blademaster
29 Oct 14,, 16:58
Yup I made a mistake. But my mistake months ago doesn't excuse someone deliberate acts today.

Then start following your goddamn advice! You were the one crying reverse racism.

zraver
29 Oct 14,, 17:04
Then start following your goddamn advice! You were the one crying reverse racism.

I wasn't crying, I was pointing out your race baiting. That you can't see it is sad, you've been here for years and are full member and have been showing all the privileges of an old timer without anyone caring what color you are but you still run around with a chip on shoulder.

Blademaster
29 Oct 14,, 17:08
Given who started the thread & why that shouldn't come as much surprise. When someone digs a cesspit we shouldn't be surprised at what happens next.



I'm not sure if I was included in this (don't know if 'respected' applies :biggrin: ) but I'm happy to explain my explain my post. TH covered most of what I would say about BM & his behaviour, so I'll be brief. I'm not a fan of racial epithets, even when they are packaged in weasel words like 'colonial mentality' designed to allow for deniability. This sort of thing is never more than a few posts away with BM and it isn't just me who cops it. I could descend into the sort of inchoate rage that produces this behaviour, but I'm content to make fun and call out the behaviour for what it is.

Sorry if that is dragging the tone down a bit, but I can't imagine many posters being as polite about something like this. I'm also curious what you think would happen if a white poster repeatedly abused Indians based on their ethnicity. I have a fair idea how I would respond, and it wouldn't be as politely as I have so far. I don't want to make life any more difficult for the Mods, so I'll leave it there.

You were the one being the weasel when you tossed out that oblique reference to the colonial past when you stated "surely only a savage and brutal people clinging to the bottom rung of civilization would pay so low a wage" and combined with your other weasely post from another tread referring to my view on the British Raj and tying it somehow to racism against whites and tying that to any criticism I had of certain US policies, it is not a stretch of imagination to infer that you were playing games and being two faced about it. In effect, you were employing some variations of the racism card in a thinly disguised attempt to ridicule my posts on this thread. If you can't come forth with a coherent counterargument, you resort to these kind of games. And that seems to be your modi operandi. So I played your game and called you out on it. And guess what? You and zraver started crying and bitching racism.

I see right through you and I am not afraid to call it out on you. You are perfectly welcome to cry hoarsely and bitch racism all you want. It just shows that you got nothing worthwhile to contribute.

Blademaster
29 Oct 14,, 17:14
I wasn't crying, I was pointing out your race baiting. That you can't see it is sad, you've been here for years and are full member and have been showing all the privileges of an old timer without anyone caring what color you are but you still run around with a chip on shoulder.

And it is pathetic to see that you still haven't gotten it and that you think I was race baiting. You have been completely oblivious to the context my posts were in and you conveniently other posters such as BF's blatantly race baiting. Check out his first post on the thread. That should have been obviously your first clue. Please spare me your self gratitious advice to know what is right or wrong considering your given track record. I remember when you came on this forum and you had this huge chip on your shoulder and getting int trouble several times on that account and you still haven't lost that chip.

Defending one's views and against baseless charges is not called having a chip on your shoulder. It is called standing up for yourself and not letting anybody paint the wrong picture of you.

zraver
29 Oct 14,, 17:25
You were the one being the weasel when you tossed out that oblique reference to the colonial past when you stated "surely only a savage and brutal people clinging to the bottom rung of civilization would pay so low a wage"

He was talking about your view of the US not his views of India or Indians which is why you are the only one painting pictures of yourself.

Blademaster
29 Oct 14,, 17:30
He was talking about your view of the US not his views of India or Indians which is why you are the only one painting pictures of yourself.

Yes and read on that other comment and you will see where I was coming from and how he was the one that played the racism card first. He pretty much tied my criticism of US policies to a viewpoint that I can only see wrong and think US is a bad country because I happen to disagree with the fact that British Raj was good for India and that somehow in BF's twisted/warped sense of logic, that somehow got translated into bigotry against other commonwealth countries and white people. And he parlayed that into a contempt and hatred for the US that I supposedly have.

And you, being the clueless idiot, picked up where he left off and played his game and started crying racism without actually knowing what the context was. So you are the one painting the wrong picture, not me. So bitch to BF, not to me.

Oracle
29 Oct 14,, 19:10
Stop it with the personal attacks. You have BM entirely wrong. He's been here since day 1.

Seems you haven't read or are not interested in BM's replies to my posts. Don't patronize me. Been here since day 1? So what? He got the authority to insult and I don't? You really think I care? Do what you do best. This entitlement mentality needs to go.

Oracle
29 Oct 14,, 19:13
Essentially, Blademaster, what you're saying is "I Have A Frothing Hatred For America (Even Though I Live And Work Here)"

How's that, am I in the ballpark? Why I don't get is why you simply don't come right out and say it?

Have a little moral honesty and just say what's actually seething underneath these "YOU'RE DOING IT TOO!!" posts.

Well said. Needs to be quoted and saved.

Oracle
29 Oct 14,, 19:32
I wasn't crying, I was pointing out your race baiting. That you can't see it is sad, you've been here for years and are full member and have been showing all the privileges of an old timer without anyone caring what color you are but you still run around with a chip on shoulder.

You, Sir, made some of those rules. :biggrin:

Oracle
29 Oct 14,, 20:02
I wasn't crying, I was pointing out your race baiting. That you can't see it is sad, you've been here for years and are full member and have been showing all the privileges of an old timer without anyone caring what color you are but you still run around with a chip on shoulder.

Another gem, that I don't want to be buried in foregone threads years from now.

Firestorm
29 Oct 14,, 20:15
Yup I made a mistake. But my mistake months ago doesn't excuse someone deliberate acts today.

Your mistaken assumption about her caste wasn't my main point. It was the implicit accusation you made in that sentence. That was intentional. Since you are accusing others of race-baiting here, I thought it was pertinent to point out your own objectionable acts.

Double Edge
29 Oct 14,, 22:57
Seems you haven't read or are not interested in BM's replies to my posts. Don't patronize me.
Was referring to your second post in this thread. What was the need for 'poor & misinformed' lawyer' ? That is what i mean by personal attack. But there was more behind my comment and had to do previous threads where you threw others. This is what i'm asking you to stop.


Been here since day 1? So what?
once you survive here a few more years you will understand. It ain't easy.


He got the authority to insult and I don't? You really think I care? Do what you do best. This entitlement mentality needs to go.
No authority or entitlement is implied. You can challenge any one, just make it a challenge.

zraver
29 Oct 14,, 23:21
You, Sir, made some of those rules. :biggrin:

Nope, I merely codified them, we try to be a family here, as much as we might disagree. If someone is willing to devote enough time to write a small book- up to a multi-volume collection they are worth more than a newbie. I see by your own post count you've been an active member in the year you've been here, that is what this board needs.

zraver
29 Oct 14,, 23:22
Your mistaken assumption about her caste wasn't my main point. It was the implicit accusation you made in that sentence. That was intentional. Since you are accusing others of race-baiting here, I thought it was pertinent to point out your own objectionable acts.

To which when corrected I offered an immediate mea culpa, something others could learn from.

antimony
29 Oct 14,, 23:50
Given who started the thread & why that shouldn't come as much surprise. When someone digs a cesspit we shouldn't be surprised at what happens next.


Right, and all of you wanted to follow him right into that.



I'm not sure if I was included in this (don't know if 'respected' applies :biggrin: ) but I'm happy to explain my explain my post.


It was about Zraver, not about you.



TH covered most of what I would say about BM & his behaviour, so I'll be brief. I'm not a fan of racial epithets, even when they are packaged in weasel words like 'colonial mentality' designed to allow for deniability. This sort of thing is never more than a few posts away with BM and it isn't just me who cops it. I could descend into the sort of inchoate rage that produces this behaviour, but I'm content to make fun and call out the behaviour for what it is.


We all know BM. We have seen his posts and know where he stands. The reciprocity of Zraver in that manner was unexpected.



Sorry if that is dragging the tone down a bit, but I can't imagine many posters being as polite about something like this. I'm also curious what you think would happen if a white poster repeatedly abused Indians based on their ethnicity. I have a fair idea how I would respond, and it wouldn't be as politely as I have so far. I don't want to make life any more difficult for the Mods, so I'll leave it there.

Looks like you are saying that we brown boys have out easier than you white boys. Is that the way you want to go?

Bigfella
30 Oct 14,, 09:22
Right, and all of you wanted to follow him right into that.

I wanted to skewer his pomposity a bit. Fun too.


It was about Zraver, not about you.

Cool.


We all know BM. We have seen his posts and know where he stands. The reciprocity of Zraver in that manner was unexpected.

I wouldn't have chosen to express myself the way Z did, but he raised a legitimate issue.



Looks like you are saying that we brown boys have out easier than you white boys. Is that the way you want to go?

I'm asking a question and making a statement.

Question: Do you think if a white poster consistently directed racially or ethically loaded abuse at a non-white poster we would act differently? I'm not talking about Mods here (they have enough problems), I'm talking about general treatment by the board. Its a legitimate question. I know what I think, but my perception may be incorrect.

(I would also point out that BM isn't the only expat Indian to employ this sort of abuse, fortunately it isn't widespread)

Statement: If I encountered another poster engaging in this sort of abuse consistently I would like to think I would call them on it and very possibly take it further. I wouldn't be polite. I don't know if I would behave differently based on the ethnicity of the poster, but I do feel I would be more comfortable tackling someone of a similar background. I'm not really sure why. I certainly don't tolerate that sort of behaviour offline.

If you choose to take that as a 'white v brown' thing I can't stop you, but it isn't my intent. I'm trying to discuss what I see as a difficult situation in an adult way. If you think I've got this wrong then by all means say so. I'm not trying to provoke conflict but discuss the way people choose to handle a particular type of behaviour. I'm looking at a behaviour, not skin colour. Perhaps there are things I'm not seeing in this.

lemontree
30 Oct 14,, 11:31
see here:

BBC News - US firm fined for underpaying Indian workers (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29751691)

See the relevant quote,

The point I want to make is the contrast of the treatment meted out to US firm executives and the treatment of DK Khobograde. The US executives were not hauled before jail and stripped searched and accused of visa fraud which is plainly here.

And zraver and others were ranting and frothing at the "inhuman treatment" by the diplomat for engaging in slavery like practices and trafficking and using pretty strong language. Furthermore, there were posts of how US government would mete out the exact same treatment if similar practices were found elsewhere in US.

Can anyone tell us why these members of this firm, see here: About EFI: Senior Leadership Team (http://w3.efi.com/about-efi/senior-leadership-team), were not arrested, strip-searched, and made to pay high amounts of bail and undergo such humiliating treatment that DK Khobograde underwent?

And many american and western posters were wondering and questioning why India and several posters like me were protesting at such treatment and we were ridiculed for such views.

Talk about double standards. :rolleyes:

Sorry guys for coming on a bit late on this thread.
A lot of discussion and cussing has been done in the last 10 odd pages.

One point needs to be remembered is that in the maid's case, she was assisted and helped by the various diplomatic staff that she had worked for. This case had nothing to do with US policy or standards towards any country. In this case DK was singled out for special treatment, because of alleged mistreatment (real or made up).

Sangeeta's in-laws had worked for and knew some very powerful US diplomats who seemed to have helped her.
The list includes:-
- Geoffrey R Pyatt - US Ambassador to Ukraine.
- Uzra Zeya - former deputy executive secretary to former US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice and Hillary Clinton.
- Timothy Haley - Regional Security Office
- Wayne May - Regional Security Office

As per Indian intelligence officials, Uzra Zeya allegedly played a major role in converting the entire low wages controversy into a human trafficking issue. Later, Zeya’s department gave Sangeeta Richards the trafficking victim status and also expedited the T-visa application for her family.

For our US friends:
Wage disparity between US and India is rather high. The wages that your labour laws have for a maid are very high for most countries. The equality and dignity of labour that exists in US/ EU is yet to be enforced in India. A fact is, that the wages for the maid as per US was higher than what the Indian diplomat was earning, but the wage earned by Sangeeta was very handsome when it compared to her counterparts in India. For this reason, a UN mission is highly prised for the Asia armies, while not so for the US army personal - the issue is wage disparity.

A maid used a system to her advantage, which pitted two nations against each other.
A strong IFS lobby took sides with their kind.
A group of US Diplomats tried to "help out the under dog".

commander
30 Oct 14,, 15:06
Sorry guys for coming on a bit late on this thread.
A lot of discussion and cussing has been done in the last 10 odd pages.

One point needs to be remembered is that in the maid's case, she was assisted and helped by the various diplomatic staff that she had worked for. This case had nothing to do with US policy or standards towards any country. In this case DK was singled out for special treatment, because of alleged mistreatment (real or made up).

Sangeeta's in-laws had worked for and knew some very powerful US diplomats who seemed to have helped her.
The list includes:-
- Geoffrey R Pyatt - US Ambassador to Ukraine.
- Uzra Zeya - former deputy executive secretary to former US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice and Hillary Clinton.
- Timothy Haley - Regional Security Office
- Wayne May - Regional Security Office

As per Indian intelligence officials, Uzra Zeya allegedly played a major role in converting the entire low wages controversy into a human trafficking issue. Later, Zeya’s department gave Sangeeta Richards the trafficking victim status and also expedited the T-visa application for her family.

For our US friends:
Wage disparity between US and India is rather high. The wages that your labour laws have for a maid are very high for most countries. The equality and dignity of labour that exists in US/ EU is yet to be enforced in India. A fact is, that the wages for the maid as per US was higher than what the Indian diplomat was earning, but the wage earned by Sangeeta was very handsome when it compared to her counterparts in India. For this reason, a UN mission is highly prised for the Asia armies, while not so for the US army personal - the issue is wage disparity.

A maid used a system to her advantage, which pitted two nations against each other.
A strong IFS lobby took sides with their kind.
A group of US Diplomats tried to "help out the under dog".

Wow, never knew the maid had such powerful contacts within the US ranks. Thanks for clarifying on this Captain. So this was intentional on the part of the US authorities, and I bet they didn't expect this to be blown up to this magnitude, at least on this issue MMS govt lodged a strong protest and saved face.

antimony
30 Oct 14,, 16:39
I wanted to skewer his pomposity a bit. Fun too.

I wouldn't have chosen to express myself the way Z did, but he raised a legitimate issue.


Did he indeed?

Let me tell you what my specific beef here is: I have no problem whatsoever in you mocking or countering Blade's arguments. I myself do not agree with him on 90% of issues.

What I have specific objections to is in limiting the discussion by mocking his intent and also in insinuating that "brown" posters have more leeway on this board to racially abuse others compared to "white" posters. That is not and more importantly, should not be true.



I'm asking a question and making a statement.

Question: Do you think if a white poster consistently directed racially or ethically loaded abuse at a non-white poster we would act differently? I'm not talking about Mods here (they have enough problems), I'm talking about general treatment by the board. Its a legitimate question. I know what I think, but my perception may be incorrect.

(I would also point out that BM isn't the only expat Indian to employ this sort of abuse, fortunately it isn't widespread)

Statement: If I encountered another poster engaging in this sort of abuse consistently I would like to think I would call them on it and very possibly take it further. I wouldn't be polite. I don't know if I would behave differently based on the ethnicity of the poster, but I do feel I would be more comfortable tackling someone of a similar background. I'm not really sure why. I certainly don't tolerate that sort of behaviour offline.

If you choose to take that as a 'white v brown' thing I can't stop you, but it isn't my intent. I'm trying to discuss what I see as a difficult situation in an adult way. If you think I've got this wrong then by all means say so. I'm not trying to provoke conflict but discuss the way people choose to handle a particular type of behaviour. I'm looking at a behaviour, not skin colour. Perhaps there are things I'm not seeing in this.

I will tell you exactly what I think. I have seen posts and thread that show other countries in a poor light. In the South Asian threads, there are many directly particularly against Pakistan (though lately there have been some focus on India). While some of our Indian posters take some sort of titillating satisfaction in that, I don't.

Next when some Indian posters highlight the same issues for the West, it is "tit for tat" or "bad intent". Why? Even though the intent may be wrong (an attempt to get back) aren't we supposed to discuss each thread on its merits?

I don't know if you have noticed, but I have been countering BM on this very thread purely on its merits, which he seems to have overlooked in his zeal to see someone stripped.

Blademaster
30 Oct 14,, 17:07
Wow, never knew the maid had such powerful contacts within the US ranks. Thanks for clarifying on this Captain. So this was intentional on the part of the US authorities, and I bet they didn't expect this to be blown up to this magnitude, at least on this issue MMS govt lodged a strong protest and saved face.

Only made possible in the face of strong Indian media exposure and Indian public mood.

Blademaster
30 Oct 14,, 17:08
I don't know if you have noticed, but I have been countering BM on this very thread purely on its merits, which he seems to have overlooked in his zeal to see someone stripped.

Uh please point out the points that I overlooked? I thought I addressed them completely.

Albany Rifles
30 Oct 14,, 17:08
Okay, the WAB is race neutral....period.

If someone is acting differently let a mod know.

As for tit for tat. You need to self-monitor.

And one can be proud of one's country. But we must all avoid becoming jingoistic.

Blademaster
30 Oct 14,, 17:11
Sorry guys for coming on a bit late on this thread.
A lot of discussion and cussing has been done in the last 10 odd pages.

One point needs to be remembered is that in the maid's case, she was assisted and helped by the various diplomatic staff that she had worked for. This case had nothing to do with US policy or standards towards any country. In this case DK was singled out for special treatment, because of alleged mistreatment (real or made up).

Sangeeta's in-laws had worked for and knew some very powerful US diplomats who seemed to have helped her.
The list includes:-
- Geoffrey R Pyatt - US Ambassador to Ukraine.
- Uzra Zeya - former deputy executive secretary to former US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice and Hillary Clinton.
- Timothy Haley - Regional Security Office
- Wayne May - Regional Security Office

As per Indian intelligence officials, Uzra Zeya allegedly played a major role in converting the entire low wages controversy into a human trafficking issue. Later, Zeya’s department gave Sangeeta Richards the trafficking victim status and also expedited the T-visa application for her family.

For our US friends:
Wage disparity between US and India is rather high. The wages that your labour laws have for a maid are very high for most countries. The equality and dignity of labour that exists in US/ EU is yet to be enforced in India. A fact is, that the wages for the maid as per US was higher than what the Indian diplomat was earning, but the wage earned by Sangeeta was very handsome when it compared to her counterparts in India. For this reason, a UN mission is highly prised for the Asia armies, while not so for the US army personal - the issue is wage disparity.

A maid used a system to her advantage, which pitted two nations against each other.
A strong IFS lobby took sides with their kind.
A group of US Diplomats tried to "help out the under dog".

So basically that puts to rubbish any claims of slavery or human trafficking as propagated through this thread.

Double Edge
30 Oct 14,, 18:28
So basically that puts to rubbish any claims of slavery or human trafficking as propagated through this thread.
Of course. That was made clear in the thread concerned or at least i tried to put that point across.

She needed those pretexts to get her permanent residence. Thanks to preet baoria.

antimony
30 Oct 14,, 18:45
Uh please point out the points that I overlooked? I thought I addressed them completely.

You are looking at this mainly from a perspective of "look, you do it too". I am saying that this is quite possibly a visa rules violations instead of just a DOL issue. In the past (a few years backs, before crackdown by authorities) there was a practice by the big names in Indian S/W of getting Indian employees work for clients, especially for short duration projects and where L1/ H1B resources were not available. They would bring these guys on a business visa, continue paying their Indian salaries and also pay a per diem in the US that would take care of food and lodging. Highly illegal from a visa rules perspective (as the Indian employees worked instead of just participating in business meetings) and they have largely stopped after fines and blacklisting. No stripping though.

Oracle
30 Oct 14,, 19:24
Was referring to your second post in this thread. What was the need for 'poor & misinformed' lawyer' ? That is what i mean by personal attack. But there was more behind my comment and had to do previous threads where you threw others. This is what i'm asking you to stop.

It was not a personal attack at all. You could have PM'd me, or asked me anyway. There was no need to take sides if you were confused. Blade is a lawyer right? Educated in a US Law School? So, the guys whom EFI paid less than minimum wage got some 1000's of dollars through US justice. Now tell me, if there is a provision in US law, that employers who pay less than minimum wage, can get off by paying some 1000's of dollars in fine, what's wrong in it? Is it a white man's burden and shit that espouses from time to time in this board? Either US changes the law or people like Blade needs to bring about a change. Blade being a lawyer, didn't know about this simple law, that he wanted EFI management arrested, strip searched etcetera? There was no argument at all from the beginning of this post.

Oh and btw, you can ask both sides to stop. Right?


once you survive here a few more years you will understand. It ain't easy.

I know. Been here for a year I guess.


No authority or entitlement is implied. You can challenge any one, just make it a challenge.

Then, please be fair.

Oracle
30 Oct 14,, 19:25
Nope, I merely codified them, we try to be a family here, as much as we might disagree. If someone is willing to devote enough time to write a small book- up to a multi-volume collection they are worth more than a newbie. I see by your own post count you've been an active member in the year you've been here, that is what this board needs.

Thank you. I learn something new everyday. Godbless!

citanon
30 Oct 14,, 20:19
Of course. That was made clear in the thread concerned or at least i tried to put that point across.

She needed those pretexts to get her permanent residence. Thanks to preet baoria.

Some of our posters are missing a crucial aspect of this DK business. She was not punished at all. She was not deemed guilty of anything by the US justice system. She was not even fined.

The only thing that happened to her was that charges were filed and she was arrested and booked into jail. Being booked into jail does not mean you are guilty of anything.

Had she not had diplomatic immunity, she would have had her day in court with likely a very good attorney and all of these issues and more would have been gone over with a fine tooth comb, with the jury ultimately deciding whether she was guilty of any of this.

Since she claimed immunity, this was moot. She was not punished at all.

DK was not specifically selected to be humiliated. India was not specifically targeted. She was only strip searched because that's what SOP for prisoners booked into US jails. God knows there have been enough suicides, stabbings and all forms of contraband smuggled into jail because prisoners were not checked.

And the charges were filed because her maid leveled very serious accusations at her that was accepted by a US Attorney. US Attorneys love going after high profile people. The higher the profile, the better. If you think DK had it hard, if you think she was treated unfairly, just talk to Martha Stewart.

US attorneys are some of the most ruthless, calculating, insidious and devious glory hounds on the planet. They are not so much Homo sapien as Canis praeconia. The entire system incentivizes them to go after the most high profile targets possible. It's not personal. It's not racial. It's not directed against India. It's just business.

It sounds bad, but our Indian posters might be more appreciative of such a system, if they were to pause for a moment and reflect on its merits on fighting public corruption.

antimony
30 Oct 14,, 21:17
Some of our posters are missing a crucial aspect of this DK business. She was not punished at all. She was not deemed guilty of anything by the US justice system. She was not even fined.

The only thing that happened to her was that charges were filed and she was arrested and booked into jail. Being booked into jail does not mean you are guilty of anything.

Had she not had diplomatic immunity, she would have had her day in court with likely a very good attorney and all of these issues and more would have been gone over with a fine tooth comb, with the jury ultimately deciding whether she was guilty of any of this.

Since she claimed immunity, this was moot. She was not punished at all.

DK was not specifically selected to be humiliated. India was not specifically targeted. She was only strip searched because that's what SOP for prisoners booked into US jails. God knows there have been enough suicides, stabbings and all forms of contraband smuggled into jail because prisoners were not checked.

And the charges were filed because her maid leveled very serious accusations at her that was accepted by a US Attorney. US Attorneys love going after high profile people. The higher the profile, the better. If you think DK had it hard, if you think she was treated unfairly, just talk to Martha Stewart.

US attorneys are some of the most ruthless, calculating, insidious and devious glory hounds on the planet. They are not so much Homo sapien as Canis praeconia. The entire system incentivizes them to go after the most high profile targets possible. It's not personal. It's not racial. It's not directed against India. It's just business.

It sounds bad, but our Indian posters might be more appreciative of such a system, if they were to pause for a moment and reflect on its merits on fighting public corruption.

This point hits off on most of the relevant points in this case:

From the Indian POV:

The diplomat (regardless of what her actual technical status is) was arrested for trivial reasons, humiliated and strip searched (never mind that this is SOP). Must be a case of American high handedness and an intention of making India look bad, probably racially motivated for good measure.

BUT, the US Attorney is an Indian, and the State Dept. has no control on his actions. So what gives?

Because a cutthroat US attorney decided to go after a high profile case based on the case of someone (the maid) who knew very well what she was getting into) to go after someone who should have known better.

Bottomline, everyone involved needs to sit down and eat crow, but at least Preet Bahara has the law on his side.

By the way, as an immigrant myself, I have zero tolerance for DK's position. I do all my own stuff, including (horror :eek:) tie my own shoelaces. Indian bureaucrats are used to an imperial lifestyle, with govt. appointed servants, bungalows and other perks. They are the ones with the "colonial mindset", not Law enforcement officials doing their job. My only complaint is her treatment, GIVEN HER POSITION. If she had been a private person, I would not have cared, regardless of her color, nationality, religion, <insert your own method of dividing humanity>.

Double Edge
30 Oct 14,, 21:46
Some of our posters are missing a crucial aspect of this DK business. She was not punished at all. She was not deemed guilty of anything by the US justice system. She was not even fined.

The only thing that happened to her was that charges were filed and she was arrested and booked into jail. Being booked into jail does not mean you are guilty of anything.

Had she not had diplomatic immunity, she would have had her day in court with likely a very good attorney and all of these issues and more would have been gone over with a fine tooth comb, with the jury ultimately deciding whether she was guilty of any of this.

Since she claimed immunity, this was moot. She was not punished at all.

DK was not specifically selected to be humiliated. India was not specifically targeted. She was only strip searched because that's what SOP for prisoners booked into US jails. God knows there have been enough suicides, stabbings and all forms of contraband smuggled into jail because prisoners were not checked.

And the charges were filed because her maid leveled very serious accusations at her that was accepted by a US Attorney. US Attorneys love going after high profile people. The higher the profile, the better. If you think DK had it hard, if you think she was treated unfairly, just talk to Martha Stewart.

US attorneys are some of the most ruthless, calculating, insidious and devious glory hounds on the planet. They are not so much Homo sapien as Canis praeconia. The entire system incentivizes them to go after the most high profile targets possible. It's not personal. It's not racial. It's not directed against India. It's just business.
Thanks for taking the time to post.

DK to me is an unfortunate event. In the past.

Very simple reason. Harping on it implies US-India relationship is thin. real thin. Lacking in substance.

I'd like to think its much more :)

Double stds is a point i've not understood and am not making.

I would treat these two as separate incidents from the outset. Commingling is always tricky.

The underlined bit i would use to characterise tv media in india. Feral is another good word here. If they did not get a rise out of you then they failed is the motto.


It sounds bad, but our Indian posters might be more appreciative of such a system, if they were to pause for a moment and reflect on its merits on fighting public corruption.
if india legalises corporate lobbying then a lot of the so called corruption will reduce. But it will also reduce the choice of parties to the well heeled and you end up with corporates having a major say at the expense of the people. i don't know if that will work in India yet. There are too many voices and if people get left out then bombs go off.

elections are expensive, we seem to have one or the other every year some where in the country.

commander
30 Oct 14,, 22:00
Some of our posters are missing a crucial aspect of this DK business. She was not punished at all. She was not deemed guilty of anything by the US justice system. She was not even fined.

The only thing that happened to her was that charges were filed and she was arrested and booked into jail. Being booked into jail does not mean you are guilty of anything.

Had she not had diplomatic immunity, she would have had her day in court with likely a very good attorney and all of these issues and more would have been gone over with a fine tooth comb, with the jury ultimately deciding whether she was guilty of any of this.

Since she claimed immunity, this was moot. She was not punished at all.

DK was not specifically selected to be humiliated. India was not specifically targeted. She was only strip searched because that's what SOP for prisoners booked into US jails. God knows there have been enough suicides, stabbings and all forms of contraband smuggled into jail because prisoners were not checked.

And the charges were filed because her maid leveled very serious accusations at her that was accepted by a US Attorney. US Attorneys love going after high profile people. The higher the profile, the better. If you think DK had it hard, if you think she was treated unfairly, just talk to Martha Stewart.

US attorneys are some of the most ruthless, calculating, insidious and devious glory hounds on the planet. They are not so much Homo sapien as Canis praeconia. The entire system incentivizes them to go after the most high profile targets possible. It's not personal. It's not racial. It's not directed against India. It's just business.

It sounds bad, but our Indian posters might be more appreciative of such a system, if they were to pause for a moment and reflect on its merits on fighting public corruption.

There are some fair points you made about the US attorney's go after high profile targets to attain easy fame, but in this case PB was already in the highest position he could be in state level. Was he trying to contest to be the Governor of the state or what ?

If that's the case why was the same attorney who with all his US law behind him couldn't do squat when the Russian diplomats were found exploiting the US medical system and "pick pocketed" about 1.5$ Million ? not one but 49 in total. I am sure one just one Russian diplomat and his wife subjected to strip search and cavity search for contraband is more juicier than a wage dispute case between a maid and her employer ?

And seriously ? she was arrested in front of her kids near the gates of the school they go to. Couldn't they have been more civil ? They expected a Indian diplomat a women at that to carry guns and bombs and knife in her ass and vagina ? BS

With the entire US judicial behind him all he could say was this,


"Diplomacy should be about extending hands, not picking pockets in the host country," U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara told a Manhattan news conference. He called it "shameful and systemic corruption."

Bharara said it was a case "we would be prosecuting and making arrests in, but for immunity." Still, he added, participation in crimes by diplomats generally leads to expulsion from a country.

Owh so now he understands about diplomacy and immunity eh ? Suddenly his balls were clamped hard by the Russians? And about the no fine imposed for DK, there are still charges against her in the US, not a civil one but a criminal one. You see why we cry double standards now. The US has different rule books to treat different countries. I am pretty sure your SoS Kerry had intervened and told PB to not touch the Russians. Well anyway this is getting tiresome as many are not understanding our stand. We are as furious as anyone because she tarnished our country's image largely thanks to the US media. Instead they decided to treat Indian's differently because hey who gives a shit about a third world country anyway right, they won't speak up and we can throw all the rules outside the window.

Source: Preet lost his balls (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/12/05/medicaid-fraud-russia-diplomats/3878619/)

TopHatter
30 Oct 14,, 22:32
There are some fair points you made about the US attorney's go after high profile targets to attain easy fame, but in this case PB was already in the highest position he could be in state level. Was he trying to contest to be the Governor of the state or what ? If he has further political ambitions, then sure, why not? And if not a State Governor or even merely Lieutenant Governor, then something at the Federal level.


They expected a Indian diplomat a women at that to carry guns and bombs and knife in her ass and vagina ? BS
You need to re-read what citanon said: It's Standard Operating Procedure. That means you do it for both the gangbanger thug and the high-class celebrity alike.
They weren't looking at her as an Indian, nor as a diplomat nor as a woman. She was a prisoner being booked into custody, first last and always.

And guns and bombs are hardly the only things smuggled (or "suitcased" as the terminology goes) into jail. They expect anything and everything (https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=women+prisoners+smuggling+contraband ). Weapons, money, drugs, you name it.

Smart phones (http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20120325/LOCAL/303259930), for example, are particularly prized these days.

Hence a full search being Standard.

commander
30 Oct 14,, 22:56
If he has further political ambitions, then sure, why not? And if not a State Governor or even merely Lieutenant Governor, then something at the Federal level.

Fair enough, I couldn't find anything online where he was hinting a career in political spectrum, but it is his wish and rights, I can't say much into it, was just curious that's all. My doubts were that if he was going for a higher position did he lose the will to go after the Russians due to the political pressure that was exerted (which wasn't in the case of DK)? Or did he just think Indian's will be an easy pick and MMS govt will just keep quiet (which they almost did if not for the Indian media).


You need to re-read what citanon said: It's Standard Operating Procedure. That means you do it for both the gangbanger thug and the high-class celebrity alike.
They weren't looking at her as an Indian, nor as a diplomat nor as a woman. She was a prisoner being booked into custody, first last and always.

And guns and bombs are hardly the only things smuggled (or "suitcased" as the terminology goes) into jail. They expect anything and everything (https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=women+prisoners+smuggling+contraband ). Weapons, money, drugs, you name it.

Smart phones (http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20120325/LOCAL/303259930), for example, are particularly prized these days.

Hence a full search being Standard.

TH, I agree to your points about it being a SOP and I did before too. It is well within your rights/law, we are not contesting it. We were contesting why a double standard then? If you can let go of the Russians and just expel them because of their diplomatic status and immunity why couldn't you do that to an Indian diplomat? Even Indian diplomat's enjoy the same level of immunity that is covered by Vienna convention isn't it? Doesn't matter which country they are from big or small, rich or poor. Preet couldn't even lay his hands on them let alone stripping them naked. Was it because the US attorney's and the State Department thought Indian diplomats can be easily bullied with any/meager resistance. If Preet is going after a foreign official, a diplomat at that then the state department wouldn't even know about it? That's hard to believe, because the same state department from what I have learnt from other forums made sure Preet couldn't lay his hands on the Russians and practically told him to back the F*** off, correct me if I am wrong. If they did know about it and kept quiet then it proves that you have different rules for different countries.

TopHatter
30 Oct 14,, 23:35
Fair enough, I couldn't find anything online where he was hinting a career in political spectrum, but it is his wish and rights, I can't say much into it, was just curious that's all. My doubts were that if he was going for a higher position did he lose the will to go after the Russians due to the political pressure that was exerted (which wasn't in the case of DK)? Or did he just think Indian's will be an easy pick and MMS govt will just keep quiet (which they almost did if not for the Indian media).No idea either way, just pointing out that a State Attorney with political ambitions has a lot of options open to him or her.


TH, I agree to your points about it being a SOP and I did before too. It is well within your rights/law, we are not contesting it. We were contesting why a double standard then?
You had clearly questioned the need for a full search by stating "They expected a Indian diplomat a women at that to carry guns and bombs and knife in her ass and vagina ? BS" That's all that I was responding to.


If you can let go of the Russians and just expel them because of their diplomatic status and immunity why couldn't you do that to an Indian diplomat? Even Indian diplomat's enjoy the same level of immunity that is covered by Vienna convention isn't it? Doesn't matter which country they are from big or small, rich or poor. Preet couldn't even lay his hands on them let alone stripping them naked.
I'm still in doubt as to her diplomatic status and whether or not she enjoyed full immunity at the time of her arrest and search. I'm hearing two different stories from both sides.
As far as the Russians go, were they arrested and booked into custody? If not, then you are comparing two entirely different sets of circumstances, just the like the EFI case.


Was it because the US attorney's and the State Department thought Indian diplomats can be easily bullied with any/meager resistance...If they did know about it and kept quiet then it proves that you have different rules for different countries.I have no idea of the US authorities motivations but I rather doubt such systematic and premeditated bullying mentality. It simply doesn't make a great deal of sense.

And again, two different sets of circumstances are going to handled in two different ways. That doesn't indicate a double standard. It indicates two different sets of circumstances that are going to handled in two different ways.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 02:51
No idea either way, just pointing out that a State Attorney with political ambitions has a lot of options open to him or her.

Agreed, sometimes quicker one's are by being a dickhead and a bully who just wants to be more American than an American. They want to prove their loyalty to the American system to show that they are one of them. What they don't get is sometimes they never will and will be the laughing stock later. In Modi's government we will see if the American attorney's try to play around.



You had clearly questioned the need for a full search by stating "They expected a Indian diplomat a women at that to carry guns and bombs and knife in her ass and vagina ? BS" That's all that I was responding to.

Sorry, didn't think things were so worse in the penitentiaries of the US. Thanks for pointing out. BUT why was the diplomat arrested in the first place is what I wonder. Why wouldn't they know they are dealing with a Indian diplomat and to know how immunity works.



I'm still in doubt as to her diplomatic status and whether or not she enjoyed full immunity at the time of her arrest and search. I'm hearing two different stories from both sides.
As far as the Russians go, were they arrested and booked into custody? If not, then you are comparing two entirely different sets of circumstances, just the like the EFI case.


No that exactly is what I am talking about. You didn't arrest a Russian diplomat. While an Indian diplomat was arrested. You can doubt her immunity. BUT even a diplomat is eligible for some extent and a leniency can be given if the wife's and their family's of the Russian consulate workers not just diplomats , then why not the same for us ?



I have no idea of the US authorities motivations but I rather doubt such systematic and premeditated bullying mentality. It simply doesn't make a great deal of sense.

It has been there for sometimes, the US most of the times acts as a bully towards India. They are only trying to get close to us mainly to counter China. If they can get well with China they won't even need us. Even Though we are a big market, China's is the same but better. So US would rather work with China IF they can. But since that's not happening they are trying to be nice. Otherwise India was always seen a distant second compared to Pakistan who ironically hosted OBL causing an embarrassment to the US. Otherwise US was very content with Pakistan so they have a help in combating terror and for political reasons. So India being neutral and not playing the US way has some scar in the relationship (if you can call it that) like Ukraine or the Malaysian Airlines issue.



And again, two different sets of circumstances are going to handled in two different ways. That doesn't indicate a double standard. It indicates two different sets of circumstances that are going to handled in two different ways.

Correct one is as serious as stealing money from US's treasure and that going to the Russians :whome: is not important considering to the Indian diplomat who didn't pay her maid 10 bucks an hour more or whatever. Your country has it's priorities wrong then, no offence.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 02:54
You didn't arrest a Russian diplomat. While an Indian diplomat was arrested. You can doubt her immunity.Because the letter of the law, ie International Law, states that she was NOT a diplomat. She was a Councillor. Two very different things. The Russians were in fact internationally legal diplomats. DK was not. Not during the time of her arrest.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 02:56
It has been there for sometimes, the US most of the times acts as a bully towards India. They are only trying to get close to us mainly to counter China. If they can get well with China they won't even need us. Even Though we are a big market, China's is the same but better. So US would rather work with China IF they can. But since that's not happening they are trying to be nice. Otherwise India was always seen a distant second compared to Pakistan who ironically hosted OBL causing an embarrassment to the US. Otherwise US was very content with Pakistan so they have a help in combating terror and for political reasons. So India being neutral and not playing the US way has some scar in the relationship (if you can call it that) like Ukraine or the Malaysian Airlines issue.Think you seriously misread. The India Card only existed in the minds of Indian politicians. Both the US and China know that until you get rid of the Pakistani issue, you cannot throw your full weight against China.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:12
Think you seriously misread. The India Card only existed in the minds of Indian politicians. Both the US and China know that until you get rid of the Pakistani issue, you cannot throw your full weight against China.

Sir, goes to confirm the thinking. But then why is the US trying to cozy up to India ? Obama was the first to call Modi after he was elected and was asked to visit the USA. Which he did recently this is after to a decade ban to enter US soil. If you wanted you could have done differently. The US knows they need India now especially after they know their reign in the Asia Pacific region is challenged and it's allies were being bullied constantly. Infact the country owes so much money to China they can't do much unless China does something really stupid. So we also knew this and I would say we played till recently very weakly but now we knew our leverage too. China will not stop bullying anytime soon unless it gets what it wants which goes against the US interests and it's allies. So yeah, we were not THAT stupid ;)

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:13
Deigo Garcia is more important to checking China than India is. The US is after India because it's a great business oppertunity but don't read anything more than that.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:14
Because the letter of the law, ie International Law, states that she was NOT a diplomat. She was a Councillor. Two very different things. The Russians were in fact internationally legal diplomats. DK was not. Not during the time of her arrest.

India still challenged that at that time around only when the US didn't then we switched her to a UN mission which then the US couldn't deny any more.So yeah there is always another side to any story :)

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:20
Deigo Garcia is more important to checking China than India is. The US is after India because it's a great business oppertunity but don't read anything more than that.

Owh we know that too, we know our strength and we know our weakness. But we will be one day some place where the US can't resist us. We are already looking east to build our relations stronger with our neighbours. Except maybe SL but SL knows who is it's master, so it won't try anything to cross the red line. Pakistan is an annoyance which we are quite capable of taking care, maybe not now but we will real soon. A business opportunity that we will use it for our advantage. You will not attack China unless it does something really stupid like March into Taiwan, but even then I don't believe you will try to be on their bad books. Especially when Russia is trying to emerge as a headache to the US they wouldn't want Chinese money fund the Russian oil deals and such which in turn is their money by importing their products. So China will keep bullying and you won'
t be able to do anything but contain it , which is only possible if you can have a better ally not a failed state like Pakistan but India.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:24
But we will be one day some place where the US can't resist us.Come back to us when you get there and not before. Diplomacy 101. Nobody gets nothing for nothing.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:26
India still challenged that at that time around only when the US didn't then we switched her to a UN mission which then the US couldn't deny any more.So yeah there is always another side to any story :)The other side of the story is that even India didn't know about her other status until days after.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:27
Come back to us when you get there and not before. Diplomacy 101. Nobody gets nothing for nothing.

The double standards, yeah we know that well Sir, and when times right we will play our cards. Anyway so this is in favour of what we were arguing about then. Different laws to different people. Whatever ;)

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:29
A very wise saying


A double standard is not only a reality for all countries, it's a necessity.

- M21Sniper

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:31
The other side of the story is that even India didn't know about her other status until days after.

No, we tried diplomatically but when that didn't work out we revoked something from our side and then played the stare game for some time. Indian media screamed in high pitch "Indian women stripped in the US" and mounted immense pressure on MMS govt to do something to somehow get her out of the US and wouldn't have given up until then especially a Diplomat.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:33
I am not going through the hows or whys again. All I am saying is that the letter of the law was observed by the Americans.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:34
A very wise saying

There's also another wise saying,

Every dog has it's day.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:35
There's also another wise saying,

Every dog has it's day.Yeah but no one ever bowed down to a puppy before.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:36
Yeah but no one ever bowed down to a puppy before.

Puppy is gonna grow one day ;) not gonna stay puppy forever.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:39
I am not going through the hows or whys again. All I am saying is that the letter of the law was observed by the Americans.

letter of the law was observed by the Americans...towards Indians and Russians are treated differently. :)

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:40
Old dogs ain't scared of pups. Never had. Never will.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:42
letter of the law was observed by the Americans...towards Indians and Russians are treated differently. :)Again, the Russians fell under the VCDR. DK fell under VCCR. Two very different definitions and the Americans observed them both.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:44
Old dogs ain't scared of pups. Never had. Never will.

Who said anything about scaring :confused:, the pup once grown only wants to mind it's business and it's interests. As far as scaring grows we are not the one doing that but another dog next door to us is giving the old dog's a concern with it's barking :whome:

commander
31 Oct 14,, 03:46
Again, the Russians fell under the VCDR. DK fell under VCCR. Two very different definitions and the Americans observed them both.

Sorry but are we forgetting that the US officials twisted that to a trafficking rather than a civil issue and made sure with whatever immunity she had for her position void ? Had that been the case as per you same law book then she would have had the immunity. This shows the bullying nature of the US towards India.

antimony
31 Oct 14,, 03:47
I am not going through the hows or whys again. All I am saying is that the letter of the law was observed by the Americans.

And so was every restriction that the Indian government placed on US expats and diplomats in Delhi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/16/world/asia/indian-school-ensnared-in-us-diplomatic-row.html?_r=0
India Won (http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2014/01/10/india-wont-ease-restrictions-on-u-s-in-delhi/)

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:48
Who said anything about scaring :D, the pup once grown only wants to mind it's business and it's interests. As far as scaring grows we are not the one doing that but another dog next door to us is giving the old dog's a concern with it's barking :whome:If you're going to use the dog analogy, at least know something about dogs.


Sorry but are we forgetting that the US officials twisted that to a trafficking rather than a civil issue and made sure with whatever immunity she had for her position void ? Had that been the case as per you same law book then she would have had the immunity. This shows the bullying nature of the US towards India.Yeah so? So lawyers know how write around the law? What is so earth shattering about that?

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 03:49
And so was every restriction that the Indian government placed on US expats and diplomats in Delhi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/16/world/asia/indian-school-ensnared-in-us-diplomatic-row.html?_r=0
India Won (http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2014/01/10/india-wont-ease-restrictions-on-u-s-in-delhi/)I actually agree with this. They're there to serve and to represent their country; not a paid holiday.

antimony
31 Oct 14,, 04:00
I actually agree with this. They're there to serve and to represent their country; not a paid holiday.

Apparently it really rankles, especially the one about the school. In every opportunity that Gardiner Harris gets on TV talk shows(whatever the topic may be), he spends at least 5 mins bitching about it. In one show he hypothesized about seizing under some pretext, the money cards the new Indian dips get when they travel to the US. And he is just a journo.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 04:08
Apparently it really rankles, especially the one about the school. In every opportunity that Gardiner Harris gets on TV talk shows(whatever the topic may be), he spends at least 5 mins bitching about it. In one show he hypothesized about seizing under some pretext, the money cards the new Indian dips get when they travel to the US. And he is just a journo.Cry baby. India's house. India's rules. Don't like it? Don't go. I'm sure Afghanistan is more inviting.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 04:08
If you're going to use the dog analogy, at least know something about dogs.

Sorry for being a polite dog ? :confu:

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 04:10
Sorry for being a polite dog ? :confu:There is no such thing.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 04:11
Cry baby. India's house. India's rules. Don't like it? Don't go. I'm sure Afghanistan is more inviting.

But Sir, unfortunately the diplomats let it be Indian or American doesn't think that way and indulge in all sorts of things. I was personally furious on her involvement in another scam in India and would have really liked to be punished in India , ironically the US did just the opposite and caused some sympathy for her.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 04:13
There is no such thing.

Polite yes but not weak, we will defend our territory and make sure our turf belongs to us. So yeah polite but not weak. We will not go looking for trouble like our neighbours rather try to be friendly as much as possible and try to get along.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 04:18
But Sir, unfortunately the diplomats let it be Indian or American doesn't think that way and indulge in all sorts of things.Yeah, I'm not diplomatic corps either.


Polite yes but not weak, we will defend our territory and make sure our turf belongs to us. So yeah polite but not weak. We will not go looking for trouble like our neighbours rather try to be friendly as much as possible and try to get along.You're putting traits into dogs that don't exist. That's why your analogy is falling apart. If you want to discuss why the US is not giving India her perceived dues, then we can discuss that but once you start talking about dogs and I try to point out dog behaviour that is within context of this discussion, you assign traits that don't exist and we can't take the analogy into a deserved discussion.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 04:24
Yeah, I'm not diplomatic corps either.

You're putting traits into dogs that don't exist. That's why your analogy is falling apart. If you want to discuss why the US is not giving India her perceived dues, then we can discuss that but once you start talking about dogs and I try to point out dog behaviour that is within context of this discussion, you assign traits that don't exist and we can't take the analogy into a deserved discussion.

Yes , please tell me what we did to not receive the US's trust and it's trust fund. I am not joking, we didn't attract as much investment as lets say even Pakistan let alone China. Business is business we are learning to try keep that separate like the Chinese, let's see how that works out for us. Worked well for the Chinese. Even the recent Obama-Modi visit as per some experts didn't yield anything significant but rather something that were expected. Good one's but expected out of Modi in this visit. I am not sure if you have never seen a polite dog, although not something they are known for or designed upon but seen some.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 04:32
Honestly? Bargin basement prices. Tianamen Square collapsed the Chinese economy. It also is the biggest reason why the Chinese are so economically powerful today. They cut their prices down to barebone survival. Anyway to make a buck, they did it. At the cost to their enviornment and health. What India is offering today is fair trade. What China offerred was a fire sale.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 04:36
Honestly? Bargin basement prices. Tianamen Square collapsed the Chinese economy. It also is the biggest reason why the Chinese are so economically powerful today. They cut their prices down to barebone survival. Anyway to make a buck, they did it. At the cost to their enviornment and health. What India is offering today is fair trade. What China offerred was a fire sale.

Against which the US and other countries led by it were advertising. i.e. to be more responsible with the climatic changes and environment. Yet they will contradict themselves with their own actions. I am blaming them it's their wish. But just wondering on why the US contradicts many of it's own stands and principles by it's actions.

But, things are changing in India under Modi. Not a life altering one, slowly but steadily AND friendly to Indians and not at the cost of their health or social life and be democratic.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 04:43
Against which the US and other countries led by it were advertising. i.e. to be more responsible with the climatic changes and environment.Yeah, how is that going? Even Canada withdrew from Kyoto.


Yet they will contradict themselves with their own actions. I am blaming them it's their wish. But just wondering on why the US contradicts many of it's own stands and principles by it's actions.This is the thing I don't understand. After all that has been shown. After all that we have wrote. Why do you insist in believing that the Americans do not insist in looking out for Americans no matter what? Contradiction? Why not?


But, things are changing in India under Modi. Not a life altering one, slowly but steadily AND friendly to Indians and not at the cost of their health or social life and be democratic.You were asking about the Chinese model and why it worked. I answered it. The Chinese model would not work for India. Indians were not as brainwashed nor as cowed as the Chinese were. Only a cowed populace could have worked as hard as they did after Tianamen.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 05:48
Yeah, how is that going? Even Canada withdrew from Kyoto.

Didn't stop them from trying to preach what they don't follow and are still doing it, bsides India's and ironically China's.


This is the thing I don't understand. After all that has been shown. After all that we have wrote. Why do you insist in believing that the Americans do not insist in looking out for Americans no matter what? Contradiction? Why not?

Oh kind of hand an idea on the American standards from the beginning, just didn't think they would go as far as to arresting a diplomat.
eperate.


You were asking about the Chinese model and why it worked. I answered it. The Chinese model would not work for India. Indians were not as brainwashed nor as cowed as the Chinese were. Only a cowed populace could have worked as hard as they did after Tianamen.

Owh we will devise our model, just keeping the diplomatic and business ties is what will we try to experiment and see how it works.We don't have to make our people slavesss in their own country through debts or through authority.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 14,, 07:14
Didn't stop them from trying to preach what they don't follow and are still doing it, bsides India's and ironically China's.Don't know if they were preaching about climate change but pollution controls are always a good idea. There is a case to be made about China. China 3000 years ago was as biologically as rich as the Amazons. That's gone and it was all man caused.


Oh kind of hand an idea on the American standards from the beginning, just didn't think they would go as far as to arresting a diplomat.Again, according to accepted international Vienna Conventions, DK was not a diplomat. She was not presented to the US as one. She was presented to the US as a Consular, not a Diplomat. And in case you did not know, she is not a diplomat just because India says she is. The host country, ie the US, must accept and acknowledge her as a diplomat. That is how things work.


Owh we will devise our model, just keeping the diplomatic and business ties is what will we try to experiment and see how it works.We don't have to make our people slavesss in their own country through debts or through authority.Let me put it in a way you understand. Go up to your boss and demand a $200K US salary just because you will become this fantastic software engineer.

Albany Rifles
31 Oct 14,, 15:34
Commander;

There are some fair points you made about the US attorney's go after high profile targets to attain easy fame, but in this case PB was already in the highest position he could be in state level. Was he trying to contest to be the Governor of the state or what ?

Top Hatter spoke to this a little bit but I want to clear up something.

A US District Attorney is a Federal, not state official. He is a memeber fo the US Department of Justice and represents the US Government in cases before the US District and Circuit Courts. It is a federally apponted postion, not an elected position, confirmed by the Senate. Now some US District Attorneys do often times go on to state level elected offices. Several coem to mind...Chris Christie and GOV Martinez of NM.

But a more common government career path for a US Attorney is a Federal judgeship.

Either way he was acting as a Federal and not a state authority in the matter.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 15:56
Don't know if they were preaching about climate change but pollution controls are always a good idea.

While asking India to reduce it's pollution level but in reality US is the second most contributor of pollution in the world and India is third. With almost half of India's population it is the worst polluter than China or India when considered per person. Doesn't that sound to preaching others but not practicing or also called hypocrisy ?

Source (http://www.rediff.com/money/report/slide-show-1-special-most-polluting-countries-in-the-world-india-ranks-3/20130808.htm)


There is a case to be made about China. China 3000 years ago was as biologically as rich as the Amazons. That's gone and it was all man caused.

Yes sad indeed, their mammoth dam projects and the likes have changed the country forever. Agreed Sir.


Again, according to accepted international Vienna Conventions, DK was not a diplomat. She was not presented to the US as one. She was presented to the US as a Consular, not a Diplomat. And in case you did not know, she is not a diplomat just because India says she is. The host country, ie the US, must accept and acknowledge her as a diplomat. That is how things work.

But Sir, like I said IF the case was treated on it's merits rather than behaved like a bully under civil charges she would have had immunity wouldn't she ? After all most of the US businessmen get along just fine paying their workers less than that, those of non US origin. So that is again hypocrisy. They themselves are not perfect and on top of it they twist the issue to something else and bullied around.



Let me put it in a way you understand. Go up to your boss and demand a $200K US salary just because you will become this fantastic software engineer.

Aaahaha I wish it was possible, although if the cost of living is under control one can get along well with a moderate salary, which will provide a lot of our countrymen with jobs who don't have any source of income at all. I am not saying we don't need high paying jobs but just that to develop our country as long as inflation and CoL is kept in check we can work something out.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 15:59
Commander;

There are some fair points you made about the US attorney's go after high profile targets to attain easy fame, but in this case PB was already in the highest position he could be in state level. Was he trying to contest to be the Governor of the state or what ?

Top Hatter spoke to this a little bit but I want to clear up something.

A US District Attorney is a Federal, not state official. He is a memeber fo the US Department of Justice and represents the US Government in cases before the US District and Circuit Courts. It is a federally apponted postion, not an elected position, confirmed by the Senate. Now some US District Attorneys do often times go on to state level elected offices. Several coem to mind...Chris Christie and GOV Martinez of NM.

But a more common government career path for a US Attorney is a Federal judgeship.

Either way he was acting as a Federal and not a state authority in the matter.

AR, thanks for clarying that. I always thought the seat of DA was filled in by some sort of system where an attorney is elected and not appointed. Even the consulate workers in the Russian embassy not just diplomats (or anyone in that level) had exploited your country's system right ? How did the State department were able to keep PB off the backs of the Russians ?

bfng3569
31 Oct 14,, 19:13
Against which the US and other countries led by it were advertising. i.e. to be more responsible with the climatic changes and environment. Yet they will contradict themselves with their own actions. I am blaming them it's their wish. But just wondering on why the US contradicts many of it's own stands and principles by it's actions.

But, things are changing in India under Modi. Not a life altering one, slowly but steadily AND friendly to Indians and not at the cost of their health or social life and be democratic.


I'm confused, but are you trying to say that the U.S. (Obama and his state department etc) preach to the rest of the world to be more 'responsible' when it comes to the climatic impact or their respective countries, yet at home (in the U.S.) he is advocating policies to loosen the 'responsible' climatic impact of the U.S. and to be less responsible as opposed to being more restrictive?

Gun Grape
31 Oct 14,, 19:32
AR, thanks for clarying that. I always thought the seat of DA was filled in by some sort of system where an attorney is elected and not appointed. Even the consulate workers in the Russian embassy not just diplomats (or anyone in that level) had exploited your country's system right ? How did the State department were able to keep PB off the backs of the Russians ?

No, It was a investigation that spanned 10 years. All those charged were diplomats. Most had already left the country.

Russian diplomats accused of $1.5M Medicaid fraud (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/12/05/medicaid-fraud-russia-diplomats/3878619/)

US charges 49 Russian diplomats with Medicaid fraud worth $1.5mn ? RT News (http://rt.com/news/russia-consulate-medicaid-fraud-783/)

Gun Grape
31 Oct 14,, 19:36
Against which the US and other countries led by it were advertising. i.e. to be more responsible with the climatic changes and environment. Yet they will contradict themselves with their own actions. I am blaming them it's their wish. But just wondering on why the US contradicts many of it's own stands and principles by it's actions.

But, things are changing in India under Modi. Not a life altering one, slowly but steadily AND friendly to Indians and not at the cost of their health or social life and be democratic.

Look at your own link. What is more responsible, a 5 year 11% drop (US)in emissions or a 43% increase(India)?

Seems the US is not contradicting ourselves. We are reducing emissions

commander
31 Oct 14,, 19:36
I'm confused, but are you trying to say that the U.S. (Obama and his state department etc) preach to the rest of the world to be more 'responsible' when it comes to the climatic impact or their respective countries, yet at home (in the U.S.) he is advocating policies to loosen the 'responsible' climatic impact of the U.S. and to be less responsible as opposed to being more restrictive?

You are asking someone to be more responsible with climate change and global warming, all good. But in your own home you burn fuel like there is no tomorrow , be the second largest polluter in the world. Isn't that hypocrisy?

commander
31 Oct 14,, 19:41
Look at your own link. What is more responsible, a 5 year 11% drop (US)in emissions or a 43% increase(India)?

Seems the US is not contradicting ourselves. We are reducing emissions

GG, which is after you have contributed enough for decades towards global warming and still be the 2nd largest polluter with almost half of our population. Your folks are burning oil like there is no tomorrow. Now you are asking us to be more restrictive when we are trying to grow ? No doubt global warming is a reality and we have to deal with it. But in the name of that you are trying to put too much restrictions. Yet, everything is made in China at the cost of environment and that's where your capital is flowing to.

antimony
31 Oct 14,, 20:42
You are asking someone to be more responsible with climate change and global warming, all good. But in your own home you burn fuel like there is no tomorrow , be the second largest polluter in the world. Isn't that hypocrisy?

A little bit of education is in order here, given that I live in the US and I am familiar with what is going on here. There is a lot of focus in the US on reducing emissions and pollution of all kinds. The EPA is the bane of US companies. There is a lot of effort in trying to reduce pollution and be more efficient. The result - a cleaner, greener local environment.

Now I completely understand the argument that India needs to push for industrial growth but what stops us from being smart about it and leverage technologies that did not exist when the Industrialized nations built their own industries? What stops us, for example, in placing a heavy emphasis on hybrid, CNG or plug in vehicles? In the US, public buses, garbage pickup trucks and many other heavy vehicles run on cleaner burning gas. How many do so in India and what's stopping us from having more of those? How many hybrids do you see plying around? Why do we not have solar panels covering each and every highrise and govt. building? Why do we not have laws and incentives where solar producers are allowed credit on their electricity bills? When vehicular pollution in Delhi or Chennai increases, who do you think it hurt more, the US citizens or the local residents?

India's first duty is to her own citizens. Being bullheaded and refusal to deal with pollution at every level based on "they do it too" is shirking of that responsibility.

bfng3569
31 Oct 14,, 20:50
You are asking someone to be more responsible with climate change and global warming, all good. But in your own home you burn fuel like there is no tomorrow , be the second largest polluter in the world. Isn't that hypocrisy?

you didn't answer the question asked though, did you.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 21:37
A little bit of education is in order here, given that I live in the US and I am familiar with what is going on here. There is a lot of focus in the US on reducing emissions and pollution of all kinds. The EPA is the bane of US companies. There is a lot of effort in trying to reduce pollution and be more efficient. The result - a cleaner, greener local environment.

I do appreciate any effort taken by them to reduce their carbon footprint. Yet with all those initiatives they are still ahead of India in contributing towards the air pollution with only half of our population. We can also start to look into it but not until we can afford to go full green.



Now I completely understand the argument that India needs to push for industrial growth but what stops us from being smart about it and leverage technologies that did not exist when the Industrialized nations built their own industries? What stops us, for example, in placing a heavy emphasis on hybrid, CNG or plug in vehicles? In the US, public buses, garbage pickup trucks and many other heavy vehicles run on cleaner burning gas. How many do so in India and what's stopping us from having more of those? How many hybrids do you see plying around? Why do we not have solar panels covering each and every highrise and govt. building? Why do we not have laws and incentives where solar producers are allowed credit on their electricity bills? When vehicular pollution in Delhi or Chennai increases, who do you think it hurt more, the US citizens or the local residents?

1. Money.
2. Technology.
3. Population.

We have barely enough money to play around with in the first place. Once we stabilize the economy we can think about the rest. Modi is very active in the re-usable energy sector and I am sure we will see some mega projects like in Gujarat either Solar, Wind or Hydro or all three balanced. For which we would need time and again money. We are also trying to go nuclear energy way but that's a long way. In most of the villages people still use the old style stoves powered by wood and coal. The automobile industry in India had always been geared towards fuel economy rather unlike the US. Still in Delhi CNG has been successful. We can possibly replicate that in other metro's and cities but it will take time and again money. Unless you show some incentive to use CNG why would people go for it or why would manufacturers would try innovative technology that can offer similar benefits that a petroleum/diesel based vehicle can provide. Even in the US the hybrid cars are not much of a success story. It is still in that niche category. Solar panels also cost money and LOTS of it for residential use. Right now in my house we have a 1KW solar system installed and cost us almost 1.6Laks for the whole setup. Apart from the government subsidy. So that matters too. Government can try to install solar panels but will mostly be limited to government offices and buildings which I am pretty sure will happen soon. But you can't expect every household in India to shell out 2 Lakhs. How well is it going in the US with less than half of our population and with more cash in hands ? If you want to mass produce solar panels which can reduce the price of it then why hasn't the US or any country did that already and had it's citizens moved to it ? It is not that easy. So asking to clean up is easy but it's tough to implement in India with a Billion people.


India's first duty is to her own citizens. Being bullheaded and refusal to deal with pollution at every level based on "they do it too" is shirking of that responsibility.

I didn't say it meaning that way, but rather US thinks everyone should follow it's rule while it has a separate rule for it's own and THAT will not work out well.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 21:39
you didn't answer the question asked though, did you.

He is not advocating policies to let loose in the US but rather is not too sincere in implementing some of the rules in his country.

bfng3569
31 Oct 14,, 22:00
He is not advocating policies to let loose in the US but rather is not too sincere in implementing some of the rules in his country.

can you point me to something to support this claim?

I see him pushing for new regulations on fuel economy, reductions in plant emissions, reduction in coal etc etc etc.

were is he not sincere in his country in implementing these things?

zraver
31 Oct 14,, 22:19
I do appreciate any effort taken by them to reduce their carbon footprint. Yet with all those initiatives they are still ahead of India in contributing towards the air pollution with only half of our population. We can also start to look into it but not until we can afford to go full green.

If you won't, why should we?

Gun Grape
31 Oct 14,, 22:30
GG, which is after you have contributed enough for decades towards global warming and still be the 2nd largest polluter with almost half of our population. Your folks are burning oil like there is no tomorrow. Now you are asking us to be more restrictive when we are trying to grow ? No doubt global warming is a reality and we have to deal with it. But in the name of that you are trying to put too much restrictions. Yet, everything is made in China at the cost of environment and that's where your capital is flowing to.

Our CO2 emissions are the lowest in 20 years and yes we burn more fossil fuel than you do with 1/4 your population.

Part of the reason is the size of our country 3.6 million square miles verses India at 1.2 million square miles.
List of countries and dependencies by area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area)

Another reason is that we are the third largest exporter, behind China and the EU. India is #17
List of countries by exports - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports)

One more point about pollution, Your ranking only showed CO2 emissions. In a ranking of the most polluted countries by particulate matter, the US is far down on the list.

India is 13th with 109 Micrograms of particulate matter per cubic meter of air.(ug/m3) 38 Ug/m3 above the world average.
The US is 84th at 18 UG/m3. which is 53 UG/M3 BELOW the world average.

Countries Ranked by Air Pollution | Statistic Brain (http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries-ranked-by-air-pollution/)

The WHO ranks you as 9th of the worlds worlds air polluted countries.
Countries with the worst air pollution ranked by World Health Organisation (http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/countries-with-the-worst-air-pollution-ranked-by-world-health-organisation/story-e6frfqai-1227040198863)


1. Money.
2. Technology.
3. Population.

The technology is there. The US spent the research money on stack scrubbers and other pollution control devices. Same with wind and solar.
You don't need to invest in research, just use tech already proven.

Not saying that you need to have every citizen install solar panels. But your industry can install pollution control devices and use better practices. I'll refer to Antimony's post.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 23:02
If you won't, why should we?

Not that we won't, but we can't afford it - yet. Also isn't it the US that's fore fronting this? the US wants us to reduce our carbon emission. I am still saying we will implement if we can. Nobody wants to live in planet full of poisonous gases or kill the ecosystem/planet we live in for one's own interests.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 23:14
Our CO2 emissions are the lowest in 20 years and yes we burn more fossil fuel than you do with 1/4 your population.

But that doesn't neutralize the carbon and other particles that's thrown in the air for decades. Also you have outsourced most of your industries to China and wouldn't that have played a vital role ? You are basically paying the Chinese to do you dirty work. If one part of the planet is affected that will also affect the rest of the world and the air just wont stay within the Chinese territory right ?



Part of the reason is the size of our country 3.6 million square miles verses India at 1.2 million square miles.
List of countries and dependencies by area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area)

Another reason is that we are the third largest exporter, behind China and the EU. India is #17
List of countries by exports - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports)

Fair enough.



One more point about pollution, Your ranking only showed CO2 emissions. In a ranking of the most polluted countries by particulate matter, the US is far down on the list.

India is 13th with 109 Micrograms of particulate matter per cubic meter of air.(ug/m3) 38 Ug/m3 above the world average.
The US is 84th at 18 UG/m3. which is 53 UG/M3 BELOW the world average.

Countries Ranked by Air Pollution | Statistic Brain (http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries-ranked-by-air-pollution/)

The WHO ranks you as 9th of the worlds worlds air polluted countries.
Countries with the worst air pollution ranked by World Health Organisation (http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/countries-with-the-worst-air-pollution-ranked-by-world-health-organisation/story-e6frfqai-1227040198863)


I can only think that mainly because the heavy industries are in China now. All your products right from a tooth pick to some heavy machinery are made outside China. Isn't that playing a big role here ?



The technology is there. The US spent the research money on stack scrubbers and other pollution control devices. Same with wind and solar.
You don't need to invest in research, just use tech already proven.

Not saying that you need to have every citizen install solar panels. But your industry can install pollution control devices and use better practices. I'll refer to Antimony's post.

We are not sitting idle ourselves too. We have been exploring options within our realm of possibilities. Just where are we to find money then to buy all those solar panels. We are not saying you should fund us, we can take care of our own but will take sometime. You have taken a long time to get to where you are with your cleaner cities, give us some time too. We will do it on our own.

commander
31 Oct 14,, 23:17
can you point me to something to support this claim?

I see him pushing for new regulations on fuel economy, reductions in plant emissions, reduction in coal etc etc etc.

were is he not sincere in his country in implementing these things?

IIRC it only started very recently? If the government had been so sincere, with an economy that can cross out India's many times over why is the country still the biggest polluter of carbon than India then ? Gun Grape had argued about all other emissions but CO2 is the biggest contributor to greenhouse effect aka global warming.

antimony
31 Oct 14,, 23:19
I do appreciate any effort taken by them to reduce their carbon footprint. Yet with all those initiatives they are still ahead of India in contributing towards the air pollution with only half of our population. We can also start to look into it but not until we can afford to go full green.


Of course they are. They are an Industrialized nation, for crying out loud, with factories that are still on older technologies. They will take time to change over. Also, the US govt. does not control their own economy unlike the GOI. If the US Govt. starts forcing rules down everybody else's throat, they are going to up and leave, exactly what has been happening. GOI has much greater control on the economy, like the PSUs, for example



1. Money.


We are spending 3500 crore on a stupid ass statue. There are other ways to honor Sardar Patel, by starting some clean initiatives on his name



2. Technology.


We are going to the moon and Mars. We need to be able to figure this out



3. Population.


All the more reason to smarten up.



We have barely enough money to play around with in the first place. Once we stabilize the economy we can think about the rest. Modi is very active in the re-usable energy sector and I am sure we will see some mega projects like in Gujarat either Solar, Wind or Hydro or all three balanced. For which we would need time and again money. We are also trying to go nuclear energy way but that's a long way. In most of the villages people still use the old style stoves powered by wood and coal.

Yes, I am aware of the ground realities, and yet, we place coal as the most likely source for generating power.



The automobile industry in India had always been geared towards fuel economy rather unlike the US.
So where are the Teslas and the Priuses?



Still in Delhi CNG has been successful. We can possibly replicate that in other metro's and cities but it will take time and again money. Unless you show some incentive to use CNG why would people go for it or why would manufacturers would try innovative technology that can offer similar benefits that a petroleum/diesel based vehicle can provide. Even in the US the hybrid cars are not much of a success story. It is still in that niche category.

Ever heard of the Prius? Want to know how many I see on my daily drive?



Solar panels also cost money and LOTS of it for residential use. Right now in my house we have a 1KW solar system installed and cost us almost 1.6Laks for the whole setup. Apart from the government subsidy. So that matters too. Government can try to install solar panels but will mostly be limited to government offices and buildings which I am pretty sure will happen soon.


Your hope is quite endearing. Tell me, when solar prices have been going down worldwide, why are they sky high in India? have you looked at the import duty + anti dumping duty + myriad other duties on solar panel imports? And what the local manufacturing doing? Why does the govt. not subsidize solar panel manufacturing to the extent that the US and Chinese govt.s do?



But you can't expect every household in India to shell out 2 Lakhs. How well is it going in the US with less than half of our population and with more cash in hands ? If you want to mass produce solar panels which can reduce the price of it then why hasn't the US or any country did that already and had it's citizens moved to it ? It is not that easy. So asking to clean up is easy but it's tough to implement in India with a Billion people.


I expect household in India to catch the throats of Indian politicians when their own throats start burning from the noxious fumes. your knowledge of the ground realities within the US are limited. Various US states (as well as the Federal govt.) offer decent subsidies for manufacture and consumption of solar equipment. However, all areas (like my own area in the Pacific North West) cannot take the advantage of solar the same way. But the laws and mechanisms are there.



I didn't say it meaning that way, but rather US thinks everyone should follow it's rule while it has a separate rule for it's own and THAT will not work out well.

Please take the US out of your mind for one tiny second. Screw what US says or does, India needs to clean up for her own sake, and not just by doing a Swacch Bharat (Clean India).

commander
01 Nov 14,, 00:34
No, It was a investigation that spanned 10 years. All those charged were diplomats. Most had already left the country.

Russian diplomats accused of $1.5M Medicaid fraud (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/12/05/medicaid-fraud-russia-diplomats/3878619/)

US charges 49 Russian diplomats with Medicaid fraud worth $1.5mn ? RT News (http://rt.com/news/russia-consulate-medicaid-fraud-783/)

GG, so there were 49 diplomats including the spouse and the children of the diplomats or it was 49 diplomats plus their family ? 49 with diplomatic status seems awfully high ? Just curious.

commander
01 Nov 14,, 00:54
Of course they are. They are an Industrialized nation, for crying out loud, with factories that are still on older technologies. They will take time to change over. Also, the US govt. does not control their own economy unlike the GOI. If the US Govt. starts forcing rules down everybody else's throat, they are going to up and leave, exactly what has been happening. GOI has much greater control on the economy, like the PSUs, for example


I agree AM, they are a well industrialized nation and hence I am saying if they themselves couldn't achieve a significant success they expect India to change things drastically. That's all I am pointing out. They being a capitalistic one than India I can understand they have hurdles, but so do we in our own way. What are the PSU's that you think will help a great lot, Railways ? they are already Electric and only a very few run on diesel. BHEL ? they are like very rare , yeah they could possibly change. But what else ? Even other countries didn't agree with their rules they left. So that should be a wake up call for the US.



We are spending 3500 crore on a stupid ass statue. There are other ways to honor Sardar Patel, by starting some clean initiatives on his name


As much as I want to disagree with you unfortunately this has been something that I didn't have much of liking myself. A statue is well and good, but that much money ?. Hopefully this is a isolated case.



We are going to the moon and Mars. We need to be able to figure this out


We are getting there. Soon we will be able to.



All the more reason to smarten up.


If managed well that is our biggest asset. But yeah agree with you on that part, people should wisen up. But with the current economy raising a child in India is not cheaper. Many have already switched to the one child policy voluntarily. Soon the growth rate might not be this high , not THIS much atleast. Lets see how things will be down the line.



Yes, I am aware of the ground realities, and yet, we place coal as the most likely source for generating power.


Cheaper ?



So where are the Teslas and the Priuses?


Again, technology, also those that can afford a Tesla in the US are high because of the per capita income and being cheap. But in India it would be much costlier.



Ever heard of the Prius? Want to know how many I see on my daily drive?


Guess you work/stay in a very good neighbourhood.



Your hope is quite endearing. Tell me, when solar prices have been going down worldwide, why are they sky high in India? have you looked at the import duty + anti dumping duty + myriad other duties on solar panel imports? And what the local manufacturing doing? Why does the govt. not subsidize solar panel manufacturing to the extent that the US and Chinese govt.s do?


We are slowly making progress on that front. Rome isn't built in a day. In the future possible, not now though. Which is my point.



I expect household in India to catch the throats of Indian politicians when their own throats start burning from the noxious fumes. your knowledge of the ground realities within the US are limited. Various US states (as well as the Federal govt.) offer decent subsidies for manufacture and consumption of solar equipment. However, all areas (like my own area in the Pacific North West) cannot take the advantage of solar the same way. But the laws and mechanisms are there.

You should know in India global warming is only an internet topic but ground realities are very different. Laws and mechanisms are there and a government should be able to push other options too. Wind power with a vast plain area will prove useful. Anyway I am not a expert, but just guessing.



Please take the US out of your mind for one tiny second. Screw what US says or does, India needs to clean up for her own sake, and not just by doing a Swacch Bharat (Clean India).

Agreed, and we will . I never said we shouldn't .

antimony
01 Nov 14,, 03:08
I agree AM, they are a well industrialized nation and hence I am saying if they themselves couldn't achieve a significant success they expect India to change things drastically. That's all I am pointing out. They being a capitalistic one than India I can understand they have hurdles, but so do we in our own way. What are the PSU's that you think will help a great lot, Railways ? they are already Electric and only a very few run on diesel. BHEL ? they are like very rare , yeah they could possibly change. But what else ? Even other countries didn't agree with their rules they left. So that should be a wake up call for the US.



As much as I want to disagree with you unfortunately this has been something that I didn't have much of liking myself. A statue is well and good, but that much money ?. Hopefully this is a isolated case.



We are getting there. Soon we will be able to.



If managed well that is our biggest asset. But yeah agree with you on that part, people should wisen up. But with the current economy raising a child in India is not cheaper. Many have already switched to the one child policy voluntarily. Soon the growth rate might not be this high , not THIS much atleast. Lets see how things will be down the line.



Cheaper ?



Again, technology, also those that can afford a Tesla in the US are high because of the per capita income and being cheap. But in India it would be much costlier.



Guess you work/stay in a very good neighbourhood.



We are slowly making progress on that front. Rome isn't built in a day. In the future possible, not now though. Which is my point.



You should know in India global warming is only an internet topic but ground realities are very different. Laws and mechanisms are there and a government should be able to push other options too. Wind power with a vast plain area will prove useful. Anyway I am not a expert, but just guessing.



Agreed, and we will . I never said we shouldn't .

Commander,

Here is my essential problem with your position.

When I break it down into specifics (CNG, solar, hyrbids) you agree with every one of them, yet on a larger level you are unwilling to have India sign on to a vision of a environmental cleanup, because you see it as a US led diktat.

Am I correct in this?

My point is that regardless of who is leading the global charge, it would be beneficial for India to get on this bandwagon, as our current ways are unsustainable not only for the planet but also for us. Screw what the US is doing/ not doing, if we continue down the current path we will face pollution, water stress as well as energy unsustainability issues. Its not for the US, or for the earth of for anyone else. It is for us

Gun Grape
01 Nov 14,, 03:29
GG, so there were 49 diplomats including the spouse and the children of the diplomats or it was 49 diplomats plus their family ? 49 with diplomatic status seems awfully high ? Just curious.

Why do you think 49 with diplomat status seems high?

The US kicked out 50 Russian Diplomats all at once back in the Bush days for spying

U.S. Expels 50 Russian Diplomats - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93757)

here is the list of the credentialed Russian Diplomats at the Embassy in Washington. A bit more than 50.
And remember that these offenses took place over a 10 year period.

Diplomatic List | Embassy of the Russian Federation to the United States of America (http://www.russianembassy.org/page/diplomatic-list)

In this link the List of Russian Diplomats recognized by the United States goes from the bottom of page 76 to the end of the page 79

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/227828.pdf

commander
01 Nov 14,, 03:32
Commander,

Here is my essential problem with your position.

When I break it down into specifics (CNG, solar, hyrbids) you agree with every one of them, yet on a larger level you are unwilling to have India sign on to a vision of a environmental cleanup, because you see it as a US led diktat.

Am I correct in this?

My point is that regardless of who is leading the global charge, it would be beneficial for India to get on this bandwagon, as our current ways are unsustainable not only for the planet but also for us. Screw what the US is doing/ not doing, if we continue down the current path we will face pollution, water stress as well as energy unsustainability issues. Its not for the US, or for the earth of for anyone else. It is for us

I agree with you on what needs to be done. All I am saying is not now. Let us build a platform first then we can build on it. But we need that platform badly. I was only pointing out how some of US policies contradicts with it's actions.

Gun Grape
01 Nov 14,, 03:49
I agree with you on what needs to be done. All I am saying is not now. Let us build a platform first then we can build on it. But we need that platform badly. I was only pointing out how some of US policies contradicts with it's actions.

How many of your countrymen are you willing to sacrifice to build that platform? Air pollution is the #5 killer in India now

Centre for Science and Environment (http://cseindia.org/content/air-pollution-now-fifth-largest-killer-india-says-newly-released-findings-global-burden-dise)

TopHatter
01 Nov 14,, 03:59
Antimony: Ever heard of the Prius? Want to know how many I see on my daily drive?

Commander: Guess you work/stay in a very good neighbourhood.


Wait, what? :confused:

As Antimony has tried to tell you, your knowledge of the ground realities within the US is limited and this is a good example.

I assume from your statement that you think that only people in "very good neighbourhoods" are either able or willing to buy a Toyota Prius, due to a supposedly high price?

This is simply incorrect. The Prius is everywhere in the United States.

As of last month, the U.S. accounted for almost half of all Prius sales in the world, with 1.7 million "Prii" sold since 2000.
In 2012 for example, out of 260+ different models, the Prius was the 14th most sold model car in the U.S.

As for price, the average amount paid for a brand new Prius is around $24,000, almost exactly on par with the enormously popular Toyota Camry and very affordable for a modest income family.

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 14,, 04:07
Aaahaha I wish it was possible, although if the cost of living is under control one can get along well with a moderate salary, which will provide a lot of our countrymen with jobs who don't have any source of income at all. I am not saying we don't need high paying jobs but just that to develop our country as long as inflation and CoL is kept in check we can work something out.You have answered your own question. India does not sit at the Supowerpower table because she has NOT EARNED her seat at the Superpower table. Frankly, neither has China.

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 14,, 04:09
I agree with you on what needs to be done. All I am saying is not now. Let us build a platform first then we can build on it. But we need that platform badly. I was only pointing out how some of US policies contradicts with it's actions.Actually I have a question. Is your education so focus that you cannot take on other facts? The one failing of the Four Tigers! They have no iniatitive!

commander
01 Nov 14,, 04:12
Antimony: Ever heard of the Prius? Want to know how many I see on my daily drive?

Commander: Guess you work/stay in a very good neighbourhood.


Wait, what? :confused:

As Antimony has tried to tell you, your knowledge of the ground realities within the US is limited and this is a good example.

I assume from your statement that you think that only people in "very good neighbourhoods" are either able or willing to buy a Toyota Prius, due to a supposedly high price?

This is simply incorrect. The Prius is everywhere in the United States.

As of last month, the U.S. accounted for almost half of all Prius sales in the world, with 1.7 million "Prii" sold since 2000.
In 2012 for example, out of 260+ different models, the Prius was the 14th most sold model car in the U.S.

As for price, the average amount paid for a brand new Prius is around $24,000, almost exactly on par with the enormously popular Toyota Camry and very affordable for a modest income family.

In Indian rupees that comes to 14 Lakhs. With added costs that will be greater than 18 lakhs if not more.

commander
01 Nov 14,, 04:14
You have answered your own question. India does not sit at the Supowerpower table because she has NOT EARNED her seat at the Superpower table. Frankly, neither has China.

Not sure how India can earn it. By developing our country ? that's what we are doing now. We don't need a super power table , yet. We will be there someday but definitely will be there ;)

commander
01 Nov 14,, 04:16
Actually I have a question. Is your education so focus that you cannot take on other facts? The one failing of the Four Tigers! They have no iniatitive!

Sir, I did understand the argument facts or not can debated. I presented my POV doesn't mean i don't consider the argument.

commander
01 Nov 14,, 04:18
How many of your countrymen are you willing to sacrifice to build that platform? Air pollution is the #5 killer in India now

Centre for Science and Environment (http://cseindia.org/content/air-pollution-now-fifth-largest-killer-india-says-newly-released-findings-global-burden-dise)

Recently talks about pollution in particular after reports came out that Delhi was the most polluted city. Even when crackers were burnt on Diwali it was critized. So we are working on it. We made the mess and we can fix it. Not necessarily you lose your countrymen.

commander
01 Nov 14,, 04:19
Why do you think 49 with diplomat status seems high?

The US kicked out 50 Russian Diplomats all at once back in the Bush days for spying

U.S. Expels 50 Russian Diplomats - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93757)

here is the list of the credentialed Russian Diplomats at the Embassy in Washington. A bit more than 50.
And remember that these offenses took place over a 10 year period.

Diplomatic List | Embassy of the Russian Federation to the United States of America (http://www.russianembassy.org/page/diplomatic-list)

In this link the List of Russian Diplomats recognized by the United States goes from the bottom of page 76 to the end of the page 79

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/227828.pdf

Wow, so many diplomats. SO then this confirms the US authorities intentionaly bullied India to help out the under dog, even knowing that would anger the Indian government. So why would they want to do that now.

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 14,, 04:22
Wow, so many diplomats. SO then this confirms the US authorities intentionaly bullied India to help out the under dog, even knowing that would anger the Indian government. So why would they want to do that now.Son, BACK THE RIGHT OFF!

THE RUSSIANS WERE DIPLOMATS - BY LEGAL DEFINITIONS.

DK WAS A COUNCILOR - BY LEGLA DEFINITIONS!

PERIOD! DK WAS NOT A DIPLOMAT NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY! The US, the host country, HAS NEVER RECOGNIZED HER AS A DIPLOMAT! PERIOD!

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 14,, 04:27
And Hitesh, before you reply, the Indian Consulate resided outside the UN zone, making American law the dominant, not UN law. Therefore, no matter what her mission to the UN was, unless the Americans recognize it outside the UN zone, she was shit out luck. Guess what? She was shit out luck.

TopHatter
01 Nov 14,, 04:31
In Indian rupees that comes to 14 Lakhs. With added costs that will be greater than 18 lakhs if not more.
Ah...OK? :confused:

Antimony and yourself were debating the availability of the Prius in the United States, am I wrong?


Wow, so many diplomats. SO then this confirms the US authorities intentionaly bullied India to help out the under dog, even knowing that would anger the Indian government. So why would they want to do that now.

Wait, how do you figure that?? :confused:

zraver
01 Nov 14,, 04:43
Commander, its economy of scale. India will pay roughly the same price for solar or coal if she goes big and only one of them has significant down stream effects.

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 14,, 05:08
This is not the first time that US law enforcement has confronted India about her maid servants. In fact, this is the 3rd time ... and India has not smartened up. India can only flaunt US law in her face for so long before the Americans react. Guess what? The Americans reacted.

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 14,, 05:10
In fact, this thread is non sequitor! The Americans have every right to chose when and if to enforce her own laws. And India has absolutely ZERO say in the matter.

For fuck sakes, every country got the right to expell Ambassadors, who believes that countries don't got the right to arrest Councillors?

antimony
01 Nov 14,, 17:22
I agree with you on what needs to be done. All I am saying is not now. Let us build a platform first then we can build on it. But we need that platform badly. I was only pointing out how some of US policies contradicts with it's actions.

No, this is where you are wrong. we are at a stage where industrial and economic activity is about to take off. If we do not make the right equipment and infrastructure choices now, it may be too costly a mistake to fix later. nd it needs to be done in an incentive/ carrot and stick manner rather than in a ham handed bureaucratic way.

Lets take some examples instead of mere rhetoric. Many industrial units use CPP (Captive Power Plants). We can have incentives to get these powered by solar or wind than by coal. Incentives may include subsidies, tax breaks or even the ability to gt credits by feeding back to the network. We can have incentives based on total carbon footprint

Another one, what say we start a subsidy program for hybrids? Much better than some of the stupid kerosene or other subsidies we give. And if we cover all vehicular classes (like Autos for example) then all sections of society can benefit.

The technology is there, it is a matter of the right policy to use it.

About the US, forget about them, lets take care of our own house. Also, no nation particularly wants to humiliate another friendly nation. Nations and people do follow their own goals, which sometimes result in unexpected side effects and "national humiliation" as in the DK case.

We have the right to respond as we want in the DK case, including re,moval of privileges of US expats and diplomats, but this continued feeling of aggrievement hurts us more than them. It is time we moved on. It is also time we stopped looking at DK as a hero.

zraver
01 Nov 14,, 18:40
Wait someone who gets the government of India to give her things like extra housing shes not supposed to have is not a hero?

CBI to charge Devyani Khobragade, her father in Adarsh scam - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/CBI-to-charge-Devyani-Khobragade-her-father-in-Adarsh-scam/articleshow/33250811.cms)

bfng3569
02 Nov 14,, 01:04
IIRC it only started very recently? If the government had been so sincere, with an economy that can cross out India's many times over why is the country still the biggest polluter of carbon than India then ? Gun Grape had argued about all other emissions but CO2 is the biggest contributor to greenhouse effect aka global warming.

what are you talking about now?

you wont answer the question posed to you, and your response is an attempt to change the argument.

so i'll ask again, where is the factual basis for your claims that it is U.S. POLICY to 'bully' other nations to be more responsible in regards to the climate and where is it U.S. policy to be less responsible?

do you have anything to support your claims?

and i'll give you a hint before you start again, it has nothing to do with volume or quantity so please do not even attempt to go there again.

lemontree
03 Nov 14,, 09:52
So basically that puts to rubbish any claims of slavery or human trafficking as propagated through this thread.

Yes, and one other point...

It seems the US immigration is doing something similar to what there banks used to do: get mired in the sub-prime mortgage crisis that ultimately led to the housing debacle and the crash in the economy: unreasonable, irrational lending.

If the banks lent money to people who could not afford to buy a car, forget a mortgage, then the immigration is giving visas for maids to people who can barely manage to eke out a decent living in New York City at around $4,000 dollars a month salary. It helps that Khobragade lived in a house paid for by the government, and also got money to pay for school for her children. Otherwise she would not be able to survive financially in the city on the salary that she makes. Forget about having a maid.

According to the allegations against her, DK and her maid had agreed that Khobragade would pay INR 30,000 per month, which at the time was equivalent to $573.07. At 40 hours per week, with approximately 4.3 weeks in a month, $573.07 equates to a rate of $3.31 per hour. However, the complaint says, DK instructed her maid to say that she would be paid $9.75 per hour, and not to say anything about being paid INR 30,000 per month. DK also instructed the maid to say that she would work 40 hours per week, with duty hours being 7 a.m. to 12:30 p.m., and 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. DK itís alleged, told the maid that the amount of $4,500 per month was a US prerequisite to get a visa.

Now, as important as it is to ask who decided to process the maidís visa in India in the first place, given DKís salary, it is also important to ask as to where did this number of $4,500 come from?

The math (with calculators): $9.75 x 40 (hours of work per week) is equal to $390.
In a month with 4 weeks, DKís maid, Sangeeta Richard, would make $1,560.
In the five months of the year with five weeks, she would make $1,950.
A full time year (at 40 hours a week) is equal to 2,080 hours, which means the annual salary for her would be $20,280, almost one third of what the US government wanted DK to pay her maid Ė $54,000 annually.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a maid and housekeeper in the US earned an average median salary of $19,390 in 2011, or approximately $9.32 per hour. That year, there were 111, 600 individuals working such jobs in the country. In comparison, a restaurant cookís median salary is $22,080; a security guard makes $23, 900; a pre-school teacher made $26,620; a sports coach $28,470; Bookkeeping, Accounting, & Audit Clerks made $34,740, while a bus driver made 35,720, and a marriage and family therapistís median salary was $46,240, just a bit more than what DKís maid was supposed to be paid.

But then Sangeeta Richard was employed as a maid and housekeeper, her salary should be closer to $20,000.

Coming back to the point.
Can somebody please solve the mystery of why Sangeeta Richard, the maid of Devyani Khobragade, was to be paid $54,000 a year, and not $20,280?

Please correct me if this is an incorrect question.

Officer of Engineers
03 Nov 14,, 15:15
Captain,

The complaint was that Richards worked far more hours than was agreed upon but received no extra moneys for it.

But be that as it may, it is well within US rights to be assholes in their own country.

commander
03 Nov 14,, 15:48
Son, BACK THE RIGHT OFF!

THE RUSSIANS WERE DIPLOMATS - BY LEGAL DEFINITIONS.

DK WAS A COUNCILOR - BY LEGLA DEFINITIONS!

PERIOD! DK WAS NOT A DIPLOMAT NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY! The US, the host country, HAS NEVER RECOGNIZED HER AS A DIPLOMAT! PERIOD!

Whoa.. I didn't ask anything wrong there did I? I was not being sarcastic either, was a bit surprised to know a case was running for so long against so many diplomats and was also surprised to know there were 49 diplomats were involved in this fraud. I only asked about the immunity she had enjoyed based on someone's post earlier about different immunity enjoyed. If that was civil case like they did with the EFI case would she have been arrested ?

commander
03 Nov 14,, 15:52
Ah...OK? :confused:

Antimony and yourself were debating the availability of the Prius in the United States, am I wrong?

No the technology behind prius and not prius itself. Then I kinda said he might be living in a very good neighbourhood that can afford these cars and this is where the price came to picture. Still a average US citizen can buy a prius but in India a car with such technologies are not cheaper or not practical at all.

Wait, how do you figure that?? :confused:[/QUOTE]

From Capt. LT post about how the maid was helped by the power centre's in the US state government. Why not a civil case ? why a criminal case. Why did they have to treat it as a human trafficking when the person involved in the matter was also aware of what she is getting into.

commander
03 Nov 14,, 15:56
Commander, its economy of scale. India will pay roughly the same price for solar or coal if she goes big and only one of them has significant down stream effects.

The cost will come down only after high number of panels are mass produced. Which needs either homegrown industries or to be imported from the US or China. Which again has to pass the environment concern hurdle. We are working on it and soon will be ready. The western countries had enough time and it's not fair to ask us to rapidly catch up to them within a short time with a lot of issues to solve first. THAT is what I was pointing out.

commander
03 Nov 14,, 16:01
This is not the first time that US law enforcement has confronted India about her maid servants. In fact, this is the 3rd time ... and India has not smartened up. India can only flaunt US law in her face for so long before the Americans react. Guess what? The Americans reacted.

We wouldn't have given a shit if the issue was treated how it was supposed to be tried. Some wise ass in the state department thought differently. That is the beginning of the whole issue. If you have issues with a country/it's officials you first raise it with them then if they still hasn't fixed it then start throwing the rule book. Was DK's superior even notified about her arrest beforehand ? What happens if we do the same to some of your counsellor or diplomat or anyone from the consulate? Without any warning we just throw their asses in the jail for what they are doing in India ?

commander
03 Nov 14,, 16:03
In fact, this thread is non sequitor! The Americans have every right to chose when and if to enforce her own laws. And India has absolutely ZERO say in the matter.

For fuck sakes, every country got the right to expell Ambassadors, who believes that countries don't got the right to arrest Councillors?

I will rest my case here because I honestly don't think we are getting anywhere. You have the rights , you follow it yourself first then flaunt it to others. What happened to the US consulate members indulging in murder and a lot of other things in other countries. You extradite your man immediately by twisting arms. I am over this topic. Thanks for arguing everyone for so long.

commander
03 Nov 14,, 16:13
No, this is where you are wrong. we are at a stage where industrial and economic activity is about to take off. If we do not make the right equipment and infrastructure choices now, it may be too costly a mistake to fix later. nd it needs to be done in an incentive/ carrot and stick manner rather than in a ham handed bureaucratic way.

Fair point, I never said lets not do it even if we have means. At the moment in our country after a decade of a mess up it seems that is rather a long way and the reforms the general Indian is looking for will not happen quicker and the corrupt party will again come back to power. If tough decisions needs to be taken it is now agreed, but we don't have the resources/ tough to do it is my stance.


Lets take some examples instead of mere rhetoric. Many industrial units use CPP (Captive Power Plants). We can have incentives to get these powered by solar or wind than by coal. Incentives may include subsidies, tax breaks or even the ability to gt credits by feeding back to the network. We can have incentives based on total carbon footprint

Aren't we already handing out subsidies for solar plants and pay more than market price to power sold back to the grid ? More can never hurt, but we are trying the things possible by us.



Another one, what say we start a subsidy program for hybrids? Much better than some of the stupid kerosene or other subsidies we give. And if we cover all vehicular classes (like Autos for example) then all sections of society can benefit.

To convert the auto's engine to run in electricity as well requires a new motor. If not a costly modification, CNG itself is not wide spread mainly due to the conversion issues even though we know it's somewhat cheaper than gasoline.



The technology is there, it is a matter of the right policy to use it.

About the US, forget about them, lets take care of our own house. Also, no nation particularly wants to humiliate another friendly nation. Nations and people do follow their own goals, which sometimes result in unexpected side effects and "national humiliation" as in the DK case.

Agreed WE normally don't. What was about the involvement of the US state department and secret extradition of the maid's family to the US, all of these compound the bad image of the actions of the US.



We have the right to respond as we want in the DK case, including re,moval of privileges of US expats and diplomats, but this continued feeling of aggrievement hurts us more than them. It is time we moved on. It is also time we stopped looking at DK as a hero.

We did stop some privileges. I am not saying DK is a hero, and I never did. She is a shameless arrogant, corrupt idiot, who screwed our country's image. I would have been more than happy to see her go through Indian justice system. Our system may not be perfect but not broken.

commander
03 Nov 14,, 16:16
Wait someone who gets the government of India to give her things like extra housing shes not supposed to have is not a hero?

CBI to charge Devyani Khobragade, her father in Adarsh scam - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/CBI-to-charge-Devyani-Khobragade-her-father-in-Adarsh-scam/articleshow/33250811.cms)

I am not trying to defend DK, if you have seen my posts you would know that. All I was against was how the case was tried. I would have loved to see her in jail in India and trying to go through Indian justice system. India and US ties would have even improved, you are not letting go of a criminal who had planted a bomb in you soil but rather it was a petty issue between a maid and her employer. I wouldn't have defended her if DK wasn't an Indian government official on official duty in the US. I don't have any sympathies for her anytime.

commander
03 Nov 14,, 16:21
what are you talking about now?

you wont answer the question posed to you, and your response is an attempt to change the argument.

so i'll ask again, where is the factual basis for your claims that it is U.S. POLICY to 'bully' other nations to be more responsible in regards to the climate and where is it U.S. policy to be less responsible?

do you have anything to support your claims?

and i'll give you a hint before you start again, it has nothing to do with volume or quantity so please do not even attempt to go there again.

the fact that you guys burn more oil == more CO2 == more pollution == greater greenhouse effect == global temperature increase == global warming.

Now you come and say to us, "hey there, you are burning too much oil in your house and I can see the smoke reaching my house. So stop burning or pay this much of fine if you fail to do so." but your own backyard is creating equally or more pollution. You enact laws and leave it to sleep ? Just because you have laws doesn't mean much unless implemented properly. Show us you have reduced a lot of the pollution coming from your house first then come back to us. If you are so towards the global warming why don't you stop buying from China which is a bigger polluter in the whole street ?

commander
03 Nov 14,, 16:22
Captain,

The complaint was that Richards worked far more hours than was agreed upon but received no extra moneys for it.

But be that as it may, it is well within US rights to be assholes in their own country.

And yet you get mad at me, if we say that they are acting as one ? Also wasn't it the allegation just like DK said she was cavity searched? was there any proof that the maid was over working.

antimony
03 Nov 14,, 19:24
Fair point, I never said lets not do it even if we have means. At the moment in our country after a decade of a mess up it seems that is rather a long way and the reforms the general Indian is looking for will not happen quicker and the corrupt party will again come back to power. If tough decisions needs to be taken it is now agreed, but we don't have the resources/ tough to do it is my stance.


Commander,

Anyone can have a stance, I am requesting you to examine the basis of yours. On what basis are you saying that we do not have the resources? Are you comparing cost of coal vs. Solar CPPs? Are you adjusting for import duties and subsidies? What about the costs of investing now and trying to switch a few years later? what about the environmental and health impacts till then? Please let me know of your assumptions.

Regarding your complaints of the US, here is what it sounds like. On a scale of 1-10 on trying to be more eco-friendly, the US is around 6-7. You are berating them for not being at 10. the problem is that we in India are perhaps at around 2. Everyone is trying, but we are not trying hard enough, even adjusted for our economy. The measures you speak of are few and far in between, whereas in the US I see those measures at many places. They have not reformed, but will get there sooner than we will.


Show us you have reduced a lot of the pollution coming from your house first then come back to us.
Again, why do you care so much about what the US does. Why not concentrate on our own house?



If you are so towards the global warming why don't you stop buying from China which is a bigger polluter in the whole street ?

You might want to reconsider that. If they really do that, imagine what's next. Maybe they will stop buying IT services from India, and then what happens? :eek:

antimony
03 Nov 14,, 19:25
And yet you get mad at me, if we say that they are acting as one ? Also wasn't it the allegation just like DK said she was cavity searched? was there any proof that the maid was over working.

The cavity search was SOP of any arrest. Her innocence or guilt was to be proven in court.

antimony
03 Nov 14,, 19:38
But be that as it may, it is well within US rights to be assholes in their own country.

In a tort-crazy country like the US? Compensations suits will be flying all over the place.

Firestorm
03 Nov 14,, 19:41
In a tort-crazy country like the US? Compensations suits will be flying all over the place.

Not much chance of that happening in DK's case was there? They have the right to be assholes to the right people. Indian Consular officials now know they fall in that category.

commander
03 Nov 14,, 19:48
Commander,

Anyone can have a stance, I am requesting you to examine the basis of yours. On what basis are you saying that we do not have the resources? Are you comparing cost of coal vs. Solar CPPs? Are you adjusting for import duties and subsidies? What about the costs of investing now and trying to switch a few years later? what about the environmental and health impacts till then? Please let me know of your assumptions.

First hand experience on how funds travel within the government and before reaching the end user whatever is left of it will be meager. I am also including the cost of solar panels, the infrastructure to produce and meet the surge in demand. Cost of investing in these projects. Apart from these there must be hundreds of others but are in the background.



Regarding your complaints of the US, here is what it sounds like. On a scale of 1-10 on trying to be more eco-friendly, the US is around 6-7. You are berating them for not being at 10. the problem is that we in India are perhaps at around 2. Everyone is trying, but we are not trying hard enough, even adjusted for our economy. The measures you speak of are few and far in between, whereas in the US I see those measures at many places. They have not reformed, but will get there sooner than we will.


No but I am annoyed when they try to police around imposing penalties and having ridiculous rules that most countries don't even agree for.


Again, why do you care so much about what the US does. Why not concentrate on our own house?

I honestly don't care what they do, it's the attitude that I am annoyed about. Trying to be the big brother of the world, they might have made some good but all I can see is the negativity. Also criticizing us for stopping the WTO deal without even considering what India had to say (which had a very valid argument) but no, the US would want to fulfil it's capitalistic hunger rather than stopping for a minute to consider what will happen to almost half a billion farmers across India alone. If they want to be capitalistic let them exploit their own people I have no complaints against it. But when you want others to dance to you tune and be your pet dog that is what is ridiculous.



You might want to reconsider that. If they really do that, imagine what's next. Maybe they will stop buying IT services from India, and then what happens? :eek:

Haha, I know I would get an answer similar to it, I don't think the American's would forever outsource the jobs to us. One fine day they are going to pack up and leave to a cheaper country. So we better start looking at alternatives. We have a HUGE IT potential work orders within India if Modi's Digital India gets to be a success. Lets hope for the best.

commander
03 Nov 14,, 19:51
The cavity search was SOP of any arrest. Her innocence or guilt was to be proven in court.

No AM, cavity search was not mandatory. It was part of their procedure but it wasn't mandatory.