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lemontree
26 May 14,, 10:09
We must never confuse dissent with disloyalty. When a loyal opposition dies, then the soul of our country will die with it.

Two Indian citizens are facing arrest for posting anti-Modi comments on FB...
Goan youth faces arrest for anti-Modi Facebook comments - Rediff.com India News (http://www.rediff.com/news/report/ls-election-goan-youth-faces-arrest-for-anti-modi-facebook-comments/20140523.htm)
Now, anti-Modi picture lands MBA student in dock - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bangalore/Now-anti-Modi-picture-lands-MBA-student-in-dock/articleshow/35612385.cms)

sated buddha
26 May 14,, 10:44
We must never confuse dissent with disloyalty. When a loyal opposition dies, then the soul of our country will die with it.

Two Indian citizens are facing arrest for posting anti-Modi comments on FB...
Goan youth faces arrest for anti-Modi Facebook comments - Rediff.com India News (http://www.rediff.com/news/report/ls-election-goan-youth-faces-arrest-for-anti-modi-facebook-comments/20140523.htm)
Now, anti-Modi picture lands MBA student in dock - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bangalore/Now-anti-Modi-picture-lands-MBA-student-in-dock/articleshow/35612385.cms)

LT, do you have have any details on what exactly was posted in each case. I know in the second case it was pretty offensive, pornographic even?

For example, I know the IT reins have been tightening in our country for some time. My posting and blogging style, both here and elsewhere in the etherspace, is well known by my younger sister, who is a IT geek of some repute and a big shot in the industry till recently when she took a voluntary sabbatical for her kids.

She was over with her family for the weekend and we got into some socio-political discussion and she was VERY worried about what I was posting, and how, and where.

I guess you would say that now with "my" side in power, I need not worry for 5 years at least. But the broader issue is that even from the Congress and Kapil Sibal's time, the powers do seem to be getting antsy about us mouthing off.

It is something that will come to a head sooner rather than later. And we, both you and me, will find ourselves in this fight on the same side.

Double Edge
26 May 14,, 12:27
We must never confuse dissent with disloyalty. When a loyal opposition dies, then the soul of our country will die with it.
Freedom of speech or the lack thereof.


Two Indian citizens are facing arrest for posting anti-Modi comments on FB...
Indians have a 'right to be offended'. Offend and go to jail.

We do this to maintain internal security & harmony. Pre-emptive, no mucking around.


I guess you would say that now with "my" side in power, I need not worry for 5 years at least. But the broader issue is that even from the Congress and Kapil Sibal's time, the powers do seem to be getting antsy about us mouthing off.
'Your' side hasn't anything to do with this.

Article 19 (ii) of the constitution is the reason :bang:

Been like that since 1951.

SajeevJino
26 May 14,, 15:59
During the MMS Tenure many of them Posted Some Cartoons posing MMS as a Puupet and so on But No one was Arrested

The Guy I know one is Named Manoj Kureel a Atrists who makes hundred of Cartoon Picture Mimicking MMS as Joker and Acting as a Robot ..He is still in Facebook Who has a Page Named Manoj Kureel

Double Edge
26 May 14,, 17:14
yeah, it would seem some people are more zealous about applying the existing law than others. Can't fault them for exercising their rights under said law.

I'm against that law to begin with.

Blademaster
27 May 14,, 15:25
Chidamabaram was fond of using that law to quell any dissent against him or his sons. Same thing with Sonia Gandhi and her son. There were stories of how they would intimidate any journalist or photographer who would try to see what they were up to or even dissent against them.

So it is not like we just woke up in North Korea just now. It has been happening for the last 10 years so I find lemontree's post as being disingenuous.

lemontree
27 May 14,, 15:26
Freedom of speech or the lack thereof.
Indians have a 'right to be offended'. Offend and go to jail.

We do this to maintain internal security & harmony. Pre-emptive, no mucking around.
Debating in an open forum does not mean the same thing. This is a warpped application of laws.

While one bunch of people of a political party openly formented communal violence and got tickets to contest elections in one region. Guess what!!... they won and are MLAs now.

Double standards, don't you think?

Double Edge
27 May 14,, 15:26
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/international-politics/57048-great-indian-love-affair-censorship.html

LT, this adminstration or that administration makes no difference. some times they choose to act on it other times not. Up to the complainant to act or not.

It's in the constitution, laws can be made on that basis and will not be found unconstitutional by the supreme court.

lemontree
27 May 14,, 15:29
So it is not like we just woke up in North Korea just now. It has been happening for the last 10 years so I find lemontree's post as being disingenuous.
Why mate?... two cases of vindictiveness in two weeks of obtaining majority! So why fault me with what I say.

If anti-national dissent and loyal dissent cannot be differentiated, then what use are our laws and the judiciary?

lemontree
27 May 14,, 15:35
LT, do you have have any details on what exactly was posted in each case. I know in the second case it was pretty offensive, pornographic even?
I agree, but you are also aware of the blatant vulgar and pronographic anti-congress/Manmohan images that are doing the rounds. All of them posted by the pro-Modi supporters. That is why I say it is double standards.


I guess you would say that now with "my" side in power, I need not worry for 5 years at least. But the broader issue is that even from the Congress and Kapil Sibal's time, the powers do seem to be getting antsy about us mouthing off.
Its not the question of your side or my side. We have a constitution and judiciary that is becoming a mockery.


It is something that will come to a head sooner rather than later. And we, both you and me, will find ourselves in this fight on the same side.
We saw this tyle pf talibanisation during Bal Thakkery's funeral strike, when the SS forced the police to arrest two girls for online posts.

Double Edge
27 May 14,, 15:48
I agree, but you are also aware of the blatant vulgar and pronographic anti-congress/Manmohan images that are doing the rounds. All of them posted by the pro-Modi supporters. That is why I say it is double standards.
Congress did not act on it, their choice.

Same with Arundhati Roy and the opposition baying for sedition charges to be applied. Why ? because it would give her yet more publicity. Instead they settled for a public apology from her.


We saw this tyle pf talibanisation during Bal Thakkery's funeral strike, when the SS forced the police to arrest two girls for online posts.
Yep, those two girls that got rounded up for posting on FB how inconvenienced they were with the huge crowds.

SS did not force the cops to act, the cops were obligated to act on the basis of a complaint.

Doktor
27 May 14,, 16:02
SS did not force the cops to act, the cops were obligated to act on the basis of a complaint.

Isn't it the same?

Double Edge
27 May 14,, 16:04
No, the SS or any other outfit does not need to resort to violence when they can have that 800 pound gorilla known as the STATE to do their dirty work for them. All legal.

Keeps the peace and these outfits get to brag how nobody can slag them off and get away with it.

Doktor
27 May 14,, 16:20
No, the SS or any other outfit does not need to resort to violence when they can have that 800 pound gorilla known as the STATE to do their dirty work for them. All legal.

Keeps the peace and these outfits get to brag how nobody can slag them off and get away with it.

I meant on the forcing the police to act. If it is against the law, shouldn't the police act even if noone reported it? Have to think on this.

Double Edge
27 May 14,, 16:24
But they didn't force the cops. It got reported like that. Since they are tough outfit it isn't hard to believe it.

What happens is someone finds something offensive and they file a complaint. Cops act on the basis of complaints. They are empowered to do so whenever justified. This is the case anywhere in the world.

The problem is what is offensive and to whom is like pain isn't it.

Totally subjective.

antimony
28 May 14,, 01:26
But they didn't force the cops. It got reported like that. Since they are tough outfit it isn't hard to believe it.

What happens is someone finds something offensive and they file a complaint. Cops act on the basis of complaints. They are empowered to do so whenever justified. This is the case anywhere in the world.

The problem is what is offensive and to whom is like pain isn't it.

Totally subjective.

Do away with stupid "National Interest" laws that seek to protect anyone's sensitive ears. No stupid laws, not stupid interpretation of laws

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 06:18
We saw this tyle pf talibanisation during Bal Thakkery's funeral strike, when the SS forced the police to arrest two girls for online posts.

The girls were stupid. Not the stupidness of youth, but the stupidness of the misplaced arrogance of minority entitlement syndrome.

You are from Mumbai. You know the reality. Balasaheb was God for a huge majority of Mumbaikars. He was the reigning ruler of Mumbai. When a King dies, the people mourn. In such a charged environment if two stupid girls mouth off, the ramifications are not something you and I are unaware of.

The girls were not kids. Or firangs (foreigners) unaware of the realities and dynamics of the milieu they lived in.

They were stupid, immature, and a huge emabarrassment and liability to their families and the community they belonged to.

You may not like Balasaheb. You may call him anything. But the facts were there for the entire nation to see on his passing away. Mumbai came on to the streets. Maharshtra from far flung places came on to the streets. You may believe whatever you like.

But you do not have the right to hurt the sentiment of others.

The police did their job. And prevented the situation from escalating and getting ugly. Because you and I both know how ugly it could have got, especially at that moment.

This is not talibanization. This is a diverse and complex democracy living together and staying together with mutual respect. With your rights come responsibilities. Responsibilities which two stupid airheads flagrantly threw to the wind. And were given a rap on their knuckles for.

A rap on the knuckles is a whole lot better than what could have, might have happened.

Oracle
28 May 14,, 06:28
You are from Mumbai. You know the reality. Balasaheb was God for a huge majority of Mumbaikars. He was the reigning ruler of Mumbai. When a King dies, the people mourn. In such a charged environment if two stupid girls mouth off, the ramifications are not something you and I are unaware of.

Bah, and I thought you were a citizen of India. Seems you are content on being a subject. That is a very poor mentality, where-in we put goons and politicians on high pedestal because of caste & community.

LT, expect more of this kind of incidents to occur, until someone says enough is enough and BJP is left red-faced. That will probably set a change in motion for the stupid laws we have.

Oracle
28 May 14,, 06:50
The girls were stupid. Not the stupidness of youth, but the stupidness of the misplaced arrogance of minority entitlement syndrome.

You are from Mumbai. You know the reality. Balasaheb was God for a huge majority of Mumbaikars. He was the reigning ruler of Mumbai. When a King dies, the people mourn. In such a charged environment if two stupid girls mouth off, the ramifications are not something you and I are unaware of.

The girls were not kids. Or firangs (foreigners) unaware of the realities and dynamics of the milieu they lived in.

They were stupid, immature, and a huge emabarrassment and liability to their families and the community they belonged to.

You may not like Balasaheb. You may call him anything. But the facts were there for the entire nation to see on his passing away. Mumbai came on to the streets. Maharshtra from far flung places came on to the streets. You may believe whatever you like.

But you do not have the right to hurt the sentiment of others.

The police did their job. And prevented the situation from escalating and getting ugly. Because you and I both know how ugly it could have got, especially at that moment.

This is not talibanization. This is a diverse and complex democracy living together and staying together with mutual respect. With your rights come responsibilities. Responsibilities which two stupid airheads flagrantly threw to the wind. And were given a rap on their knuckles for.

A rap on the knuckles is a whole lot better than what could have, might have happened.

Let's replace Bal Thackeray with Akbaruddin Owaisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbaruddin_Owaisi) for a moment and think this through. Religion and regionalism are dangerous topics.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 06:50
Bah, and I thought you were a citizen of India. Seems you are content on being a subject. That is a very poor mentality, where-in we put goons and politicians on high pedestal because of caste & community.

We are both citizens. LT too. Your rights extend up to and only where they start encroaching on mine. Expect pushback. Hard, if need be.

Learn how to behave. Or expect to be taught. This is real life. Not writers club or bloggers anonymous here.

There was nothing about caste or community here. Simply respect for a man by the masses.

The rights of the stupid girls ended where they encroached on the sensibilities of the masses. Law and order is a pragmatic on the ground reality without the luxury of time or reflection or retrospective ruminations. A decision was taken and followed through. For the protection of the girls and their families. And for continued peace of the city at a charged moment.

I believe the police did their duty. I do not agree with either LT or you on this. Because you both suffer from (and/or subscribe to, respectively) a minority entitlement syndrome of a particularly virulent kind.

Oracle
28 May 14,, 06:57
We are both citizens. LT too.

You might live in a free country, but do you feel the same?


Your rights extend up to and only where they start encroaching on mine. Expect pushback. Hard, if need be.

Learn how to behave. Or expect to be taught. This is real life. Not writers club or bloggers anonymous here.

:confused:

Oracle
28 May 14,, 07:06
There was nothing about caste or community here. Simply respect for a man by the masses.

The rights of the stupid girls ended where they encroached on the sensibilities of the masses. Law and order is a pragmatic on the ground reality without the luxury of time or reflection or retrospective ruminations. A decision was taken and followed through. For the protection of the girls and their families. And for continued peace of the city at a charged moment.

I believe the police did their duty. I do not agree with either LT or you on this. Because you both suffer from minority entitlement syndrome of a very virulent kind.

You modified your post after I replied. Anyway.

Police action was for the protection of the girls/families? Not really, as Sena activists attacked the clinic of the Uncle of one of those 2 girls.

Now why were the girls arrested in the first place? Two girls arrested for Facebook post questioning 'Bal Thackeray shutdown' of Mumbai, get bail (http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/two-girls-arrested-for-facebook-post-questioning-bal-thackeray-shutdown-of-mumbai-get-bail/1033177/)

Seems your respect for the man, sensibilities of the masses syndrome is not shared by all, even in Mumbai. And if showing you the other side of the coin is a virulent kind, so be it. I'll call hypocrisy everytime I see it.

bolo121
28 May 14,, 07:14
The girls were stupid. Not the stupidness of youth, but the stupidness of the misplaced arrogance of minority entitlement syndrome.

You are from Mumbai. You know the reality. Balasaheb was God for a huge majority of Mumbaikars. He was the reigning ruler of Mumbai. When a King dies, the people mourn. In such a charged environment if two stupid girls mouth off, the ramifications are not something you and I are unaware of.

The girls were not kids. Or firangs (foreigners) unaware of the realities and dynamics of the milieu they lived in.

They were stupid, immature, and a huge emabarrassment and liability to their families and the community they belonged to.

You may not like Balasaheb. You may call him anything. But the facts were there for the entire nation to see on his passing away. Mumbai came on to the streets. Maharshtra from far flung places came on to the streets. You may believe whatever you like.

But you do not have the right to hurt the sentiment of others.

The police did their job. And prevented the situation from escalating and getting ugly. Because you and I both know how ugly it could have got, especially at that moment.

This is not talibanization. This is a diverse and complex democracy living together and staying together with mutual respect. With your rights come responsibilities. Responsibilities which two stupid airheads flagrantly threw to the wind. And were given a rap on their knuckles for.

A rap on the knuckles is a whole lot better than what could have, might have happened.

Yuck.
Talk about blame the victim syndrome.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 07:18
You modified your post after I replied. Anyway.

Police action was for the protection of the girls/families? Not really, as Sena activists attacked the clinic of the Uncle of one of those 2 girls.

Now why were the girls arrested in the first place? Two girls arrested for Facebook post questioning 'Bal Thackeray shutdown' of Mumbai, get bail (http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/two-girls-arrested-for-facebook-post-questioning-bal-thackeray-shutdown-of-mumbai-get-bail/1033177/)

Seems your respect for the man, sensibilities of the masses syndrome is not shared by all, even in Mumbai. And if showing you the other side of the coin is a virulent kind, so be it.

Unlike you, I do not backtrack. I did not modify my post. I simply added to it.

36949

Enough said.

The man lived and went like the King he was.

Haters can keep hating and cry their eyes out for all I care frankly. :)

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 07:19
Yuck.
Talk about blame the victim syndrome.

Another one with a strong minority entitlement syndrome.

bolo121
28 May 14,, 07:23
Another one with a strong minority entitlement syndrome.

Another one with Majority entitlement syndrome

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 07:24
Another one with Majority entitlement syndrome

Be original

Or at least try.

Would be appreciated more.

Right now I'm just amused.

bolo121
28 May 14,, 07:27
Be original

Or at least try.

Would be appreciated more.

Right now I'm just amused.

Erm, way to be deliberately obtuse as usual.
You were in full blame the victim support the shiv sena thugs majority entitlement and domination mode.
As usual.

bolo121
28 May 14,, 07:29
Unlike you, I do not backtrack. I did not modify my post. I simply added to it.

36949

Enough said.

The man lived and went like the King he was.

Haters can keep hating and cry their eyes out for all I care frankly. :)

Hate was his specialisation not ours.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 07:31
Erm, way to be obtuse as usual.
You were in full blame the victim support the shiv sena thugs majority entitlement and domination mode.
As usual.

They were not the victims. They were stupid airheads. Who through their stupid braindead posts could have started something really violent. Where real people in real life could have gotten really hurt.

I applaud the police for doing their job. Clamping down. Rapping down. And maintaining the peace. I applaud Mmbai and Mumbaikars too for also maintaining the peace. And honoring the memory of their Sher (Tiger) who left them.

So please do continue to cry me a river. As always.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 07:32
Hate was his specialisation not ours.

He was a patriot. And a son of the soil.

He will be remembered by us. And his teachings emulated.

P.S. Who do you define as "ours" ? :) This should be interesting .....

bolo121
28 May 14,, 07:43
People whose opinions differ from you. duh.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 07:52
People whose opinions differ from you. duh.

Where do you and I come in when discussing Balasaheb?

Cribbing about a great man, beloved by the masses, does not diminish his stature. It just makes you look frustrated and whingy.

As always.

Jai Hind. Jai Maharashtra.

36951

Just look at those eyes man .....

Ekta Tiger! (Once there was a Tiger!)

Double Edge
28 May 14,, 10:51
Do away with stupid "National Interest" laws that seek to protect anyone's sensitive ears. No stupid laws, not stupid interpretation of laws
You're not getting it. All that is required is to show what was said is offensive if you can prove that it does not matter what the context is. You have the right under existing law to file charges. And realise that these are non-bailable offenses. Think of it as a more extreme form of protection from libel or defamation.

The interpretation isn't stupid, inserting article 19(ii) back in 1952 was stupid. The reason given at the time was it would be impossible to prosecute someone that advocated murder. If you look at the US that comes under incitement. Anything up to but not including incitement is permitted.

Now whether you get attacked by other parties or fired form your job for what you said is a separate matter but USG will not be able to touch you on the basis of someone charging you offended them.


Double standards, don't you think?
This is the other thing, both sides make the same charge. They do so on the basis of partisan interests. The law in this particular context does not discriminate here at all. Anyone can use it.

A bigger org like SS might get a speedier response but this does not preclude individuals from filing for the same.

Oracle
28 May 14,, 11:06
Unlike you, I do not backtrack. I did not modify my post. I simply added to it.

36949

Enough said.

The man lived and went like the King he was.

Haters can keep hating and cry their eyes out for all I care frankly. :)

King. :rolleyes:

By beating up South & North Indians? He might be the idol you emulate, don't try and push that to others. Hate is a strong word, I prefer seeing both sides of the coin. I'm not a religious extremist.

lemontree
28 May 14,, 11:37
The girls were stupid. Not the stupidness of youth, but the stupidness of the misplaced arrogance of minority entitlement syndrome.

You are from Mumbai. You know the reality. Balasaheb was God for a huge majority of Mumbaikars. He was the reigning ruler of Mumbai. When a King dies, the people mourn. In such a charged environment if two stupid girls mouth off, the ramifications are not something you and I are unaware of.

The girls were not kids. Or firangs (foreigners) unaware of the realities and dynamics of the milieu they lived in.

They were stupid, immature, and a huge emabarrassment and liability to their families and the community they belonged to.

You may not like Balasaheb. You may call him anything. But the facts were there for the entire nation to see on his passing away. Mumbai came on to the streets. Maharshtra from far flung places came on to the streets. You may believe whatever you like.

But you do not have the right to hurt the sentiment of others.

The police did their job. And prevented the situation from escalating and getting ugly. Because you and I both know how ugly it could have got, especially at that moment.

This is not talibanization. This is a diverse and complex democracy living together and staying together with mutual respect. With your rights come responsibilities. Responsibilities which two stupid airheads flagrantly threw to the wind. And were given a rap on their knuckles for.

A rap on the knuckles is a whole lot better than what could have, might have happened.

This is the type of fascism that I'm against.
I'm against a party that threatens to "burn" Mumbai if the rule of law was enforced (w.r.t 1993 riots).

BTW, you are well aware that the police were pulled up for that wrongful arrest.
The SS vandalised a clinic belonging to one of the girls' relatives, and none were arrested for that.

Tell me if I am wrong to stand against it.

lemontree
28 May 14,, 11:53
Where do you and I come in when discussing Balasaheb?

You and I would be two sides of a coin that represent Mumbai.


Just look at those eyes man .....

Ekta Tiger! (Once there was a Tiger!)
:slap:

He formed his policies based on the what inspired him from "Mein Kampf".
His strong point was his strong oratory skills.
His late son's close associate was my business partner a few years ago, so hold a different view.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 12:05
My Internet is coming and going man. Nearly 5 times I have replied to oracle and the reply did not go thru. Will reply fom home later.

Damn! And now this one liner makes it through.:slap:

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 12:17
King. :rolleyes:

Absolutely.

You, an Assamese Bong, rolling your eyes in Bangalore, is not going to change facts on the ground in Mumbai.

The photos do not lie. Nor does the state funeral given to him.

No one forced the millions to come on to the streets. No one threatened them so that the tears came unabated to their eyes.

Get real. Don't shove your sense of right and wrong on to us here. Who we should respect and love, and who we should not.

Balasaheb was the undisputed King of Mumbai. Without challenge. The Shiv Sena is the ruler of Mumbai, Unchallenged.

Does not matter who the CM at the state is. Or the PM of the country. We have seen enough come and go to know who calls the shots here. And always will.

And Mumbai and Maharashtra is the better and safer for that. My daughters are safer for that. My streets are safer for that. Ask any woman she will tell you the same. As any old, infirm, weak, they will say the same. Ask any Mumbaikar fom the 70s through 80s and 90s who cleaned up their city and killed the underworld and released Mumbai from the Pakstani-Dubai stranglehold, they will tell you that.

As I said, Patriots first foremost and last. You guys are just not comfortable with their politically incorrect ways.

Double Edge
28 May 14,, 12:18
LT, expect more of this kind of incidents to occur, until someone says enough is enough and BJP is left red-faced. That will probably set a change in motion for the stupid laws we have.
Hmm, i wish...but how will you counter the below public safety/disorder arguments ie such laws exist to preserve stability. In the 'public interest'.


They were stupid, immature, and a huge emabarrassment and liability to their families and the community they belonged to.

You may not like Balasaheb. You may call him anything. But the facts were there for the entire nation to see on his passing away. Mumbai came on to the streets. Maharshtra from far flung places came on to the streets. You may believe whatever you like.

But you do not have the right to hurt the sentiment of others.

The police did their job. And prevented the situation from escalating and getting ugly. Because you and I both know how ugly it could have got, especially at that moment.

This is not talibanization. This is a diverse and complex democracy living together and staying together with mutual respect. With your rights come responsibilities. Responsibilities which two stupid airheads flagrantly threw to the wind. And were given a rap on their knuckles for.

A rap on the knuckles is a whole lot better than what could have, might have happened.

What is achieves is to defuse the situation by going after the weaker party. The one least likely to cause trouble.

People are incapable of responding to words with words. Incapable of repartee. One person says something, cheapest way is to have another counter. But no, must resort to or threaten violence in the name of honour. The state is required to intervene.

The only time i feel a govt will refrain from prosecuting is if it becomes counter productive in the big picture. They are facing a strong anti-incumbency and do not want to give their opponents more ammo. No clear cut answer here, depends on the situation. This is not a govt that seeks to preserve freedom of speech rather one that is in damage limitation mode.

Incumbents are extremely sensitive to anything that threatens stability as it has a bearing on whether they stay or go. If you consider that in the electronic age, things can move faster still they are uneasy about the possibility of spontaneous riots. The exodus from Bangalore over videos being circulated is a case in point here. The govt of the time was totally stumped and left wondering wtf just happened.

Oracle
28 May 14,, 12:31
Absolutely.

You, an Assamese Bong, rolling your eyes in Bangalore, is not going to change facts on the ground in Mumbai.

The photos do not lie. Nor does the state funeral given to him.

No one forced the millions to come on to the streets. No one threatened them so that the tears came unabated to their eyes.

Get real. Don't shove your sense of right and wrong on to us here. Who we should respect and love, and who we should not.

Balasaheb was the undisputed King of Mumbai. Without challenge. The Shiv Sena is the ruler of Mumbai, Unchallenged.

Does not matter who the CM at the state is. Or the PM of the country. We have seen enough come and go to know who calls the shots here. And always will.

And Mumbai and Maharashtra is the better and safer for that. My daughters are safer for that. My streets are safer for that. Ask any woman she will tell you the same. As any old, infirm, weak, they will say the same. Ask any Mumbaikar fom the 70s through 80s and 90s who cleaned up their city and killed the underworld and released Mumbai from the Pakstani-Dubai stranglehold, they will tell you that.

Correction: I'm not Assamese. Well the rest of your post is ... :confused: Posting walls?


My Internet is coming and going man. Nearly 5 times I have replied to oracle and the reply did not go thru. Will reply fom home later.

Damn! And now this one liner makes it through.:slap:

Beedis interfering with the cables/signal maybe? :biggrin:


Hmm, i wish...but how will you counter the below public safety/disorder arguments ie such laws exist to preserve stability. In the 'public interest'

Maybe public debate should help frame new laws, while abandoning the earlier ones.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 12:31
People are incapable of responding to words with words. Incapable of repartee. Must resort to or threaten violence in the name of honour.

I think you would know enough of the Shiv Sena to realise that the response was very mild. Very controlled.

Repartee? As I said earlier, this is real life, real people, real passions, real sentiments. This is not a writer club or blogger's anonymous. Real lives are stake here. People have died and cities have burned for less. This is India. We are Indians. The STUPID girls were also Indian, living in India. This is not Scandinavia.

I mean what are we even debating here man? Seriously!

Balasaheb breathed his last more than 30 hours before the world was even told of it. Enough time for the state machinery to get in place and maintain control.

And a day after his funeral these MORONS post this? And we are talking repartee and rule of law and stuff as if we are sitting in Parliament? Ask any Mumbai policeman what the situation on the ground at the time was. I know. I have one in the family. And a senior one at that.

Double Edge
28 May 14,, 14:06
Hate was his specialisation not ours.
Put in place by congress to counter a communist leader of the time in Bombay whose name i cannot recall. Late 60s.

He was an effective counter.


Another one with Majority entitlement syndrome
You know i'm not sure if there is any difference in what he said and what minorities would say anytime something comes out that remotely resembles hate speech or amounts to disrespect of their community or religion. One and the same.

Article 19(ii) to the rescue :biggrin:

Satanic verses, Dan Brown, anything inflammatory against (insert family name/group/community/party). All the same isn't it.

Ban, go to jail.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 14:19
You know i'm not sure if there is any difference in what he said and what minorities would say anytime something comes out that remotely resembles hate speech.

Only that the "majority" has never had sole dibs on hate speeches either.

Double Edge
28 May 14,, 14:24
I think you would know enough of the Shiv Sena to realise that the response was very mild. Very controlled.
Versus what they could have done. This is why that law exists. So we have to balance security over freedom.

Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither. Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security - Benjamin Franklin


you do not have the right to hurt the sentiment of others
This is the bit i fundamentally disagree with. In an ideal world sentiments of others should not be infringing on people's right to express themselves. So long as they do not resort to incitement.

Too bad nine out of ten Indians aren't with me on that.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 14:28
Versus what they could have done. This is why that law exists. So we have to balance security over freedom.

Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither. Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security - Benjamin Franklin

This is the bit i fundamentally disagree with.

All very nice DE.

On WAB.

The truth on the ground in India is very different. I am a realist, a pragmatist.

I do not purposely put my hand into fire and expect it to soothe my skin with a cool loving balm. I do not try to change fire. I use it instead to work for me.

But always knowing fully well that it can and will burn me the day I am not careful.

Hope the morons have learned too. As I am sure they have. Bolstered no doubt (albeit belatedly) by their families.

Oracle
28 May 14,, 14:30
Put in place by congress to counter a communist leader of the time in Bombay whose name i cannot recall. Late 60s.

He was an effective counter.

Krishna Desai, murdered on June 6, 1970. He was the sitting MLA of the CPI.


You know i'm not sure if there is any difference in what he said and what minorities would say anytime something comes out that remotely resembles hate speech. One and the same.

All thanks to 19(ii)

Your posts are a little difficult to understand.

The law is there. 19(ii). So, anybody who wants to use/misuse it can do so. All thanks to 19(ii). This is what DE is saying.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 14:46
This is the bit i fundamentally disagree with. In an ideal world sentiments of others should not be infringing on people's right to express themselves. So long as they do not resort to incitement.

Who decides what is incitement and what is kosher "people exercising their right to express themselves"?

Where are you going to draw that line?

And when you do draw the line, do you speak for everyone?

Or are you taking away from some/many THEIR right to feel offended, incited, aggrieved?

In effect, do you decide for them by drawing that line? One way or the other.

Does not sound either more enlightened or even remotely workable frankly. But I'm not saying I'm one of the 9 out of 10 Indians either. There is theory and intellectualization, and there is cold hard reality.

India today lives with its reality. Not what a Utopian ideal should or would look like. We Indians are great at coexisting, adjusting, tolerating. Why set out to mend something that's not broken?

Double Edge
28 May 14,, 14:49
Krishna Desai, murdered on June 6, 1970. He was the sitting MLA of the CPI.
I think that's the one.


Your posts are a little difficult to understand.

The law is there. 19(ii). So, anybody who wants to use/misuse it can do so. All thanks to 19(ii). This is what DE is saying.
I added more to that post maybe its clear now.

You cannot misuse a law. You either use it or not.


All very nice DE.

On WAB.

The truth on the ground in India is very different. I am a realist, a pragmatist.

I do not purposely put my hand into fire and expect it to soothe my skin with a cool loving balm. I do not try to change fire. I use it instead to work for me.

But always knowing fully well that it can and will burn me the day I am not careful.
Consider the elections of 1952. A bunch of people herded into polling booths to do something they did not comprehend for somebody they did not know.

Why would you give democracy to such a people. Why give them rights & freedoms.


Hope the morons have learned too. As I am sure they have. Bolstered no doubt (albeit belatedly) by their families.
What was there to learn other than comply or else

Oracle
28 May 14,, 14:57
I think that's the one.

I added more to that post maybe its more clear now.

You cannot misuse a law. You either use it or not.

Yeah, I get it. So the law needs to be archived.

And people need to grow a thick skin. Else they need to go home, sit in a corner, and cry all they want. With this attitude, we'd left with no one to talk to because everybody would be taking offence.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 15:02
Consider the elections of 1952. A bunch of people herded into polling booths to do something they did not comprehend for somebody they did not know.

Why would you give democracy to such a people. Why give them rights & freedoms.

Because the majority demanded it. And would accept nothing less.

That majority getting its way was Democracy in action. One lesson down, many more to go.


What was there to learn

Do not be a moron.

Especially when others are going to get hurt because you were a moron.

In an ideal world, Darwinism should work faster. Be less selective. Lose some good at the cost of purging most of the crap from the gene pool.

sated buddha
28 May 14,, 15:04
And people need to grow a thick skin. Else they need to go home, sit in a corner, and cry all they want. With this attitude, we'd left with no one to talk to because everybody would be taking offence.

OR

Maybe people need to think before mouthing off.

That way you could talk a lot more to a whole lot more. And would not be so busy bashing each others' heads in. Or chopping, depending on your weapon of choice.

Double Edge
28 May 14,, 15:37
All very nice DE.

On WAB.
Actually not on WAB. WAB is not a democracy.

In the US, in force now.


The truth on the ground in India is very different. I am a realist, a pragmatist.
The truth is we cannot be trusted with the freedoms Americans take for granted.

Why ?


Yeah, I get it. So the law needs to be archived.

And people need to grow a thick skin. Else they need to go home, sit in a corner, and cry all they want. With this attitude, we'd left with no one to talk to because everybody would be taking offence.
19 (ii) needs to be amended to take into account incitement instead of offence. All existing laws pertaining to automatically become invalid.

The problem is the system has built up around it, so if you change it there will be chaos at the outset and no party will dare to try it. All the nasties will come out and threaten violence unhappy that little girls can now mock their cherished beliefs. You will also get a lot of ideologues spreading hate which will trouble the moderates.

So it needs to be staggered in some way to reduce fallout. The next question is whats in it for the party that attempts this change. A lot of inertia here to overcome.

antimony
28 May 14,, 15:54
The girls were stupid. Not the stupidness of youth, but the stupidness of the misplaced arrogance of minority entitlement syndrome.

You are from Mumbai. You know the reality. Balasaheb was God for a huge majority of Mumbaikars. He was the reigning ruler of Mumbai. When a King dies, the people mourn. In such a charged environment if two stupid girls mouth off, the ramifications are not something you and I are unaware of.

The girls were not kids. Or firangs (foreigners) unaware of the realities and dynamics of the milieu they lived in.

They were stupid, immature, and a huge emabarrassment and liability to their families and the community they belonged to.

You may not like Balasaheb. You may call him anything. But the facts were there for the entire nation to see on his passing away. Mumbai came on to the streets. Maharshtra from far flung places came on to the streets. You may believe whatever you like.

But you do not have the right to hurt the sentiment of others.

The police did their job. And prevented the situation from escalating and getting ugly. Because you and I both know how ugly it could have got, especially at that moment.

This is not talibanization. This is a diverse and complex democracy living together and staying together with mutual respect. With your rights come responsibilities. Responsibilities which two stupid airheads flagrantly threw to the wind. And were given a rap on their knuckles for.

A rap on the knuckles is a whole lot better than what could have, might have happened.

So, no respect for freedom of speech because your "sensibilities" were affected. Balasaheb was an animal and I am glad he died, just like I was glad when that other animal Subhas Chakraborty died. I will be even happier when the Thakeray clan bites the dust.

Yes, he was god to those mindless drones who worshipped him as God/ King. Newsflash, this is the 21st Century, no place for Gods or Kings among men.

Officer of Engineers
28 May 14,, 16:11
What's Ben Franklin's saying?

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb arguing what's for dinner. Liberty is an armed lamb contesting the vote.

antimony
28 May 14,, 17:22
What's Ben Franklin's saying?

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb arguing what's for dinner. Liberty is an armed lamb contesting the vote.

Majoritarians in India keep harping about "democracy" and "majority wins", as if a mere majority can allow them to do anything they want, while completely ignoring the "Republic" and "rule of law" part

Officer of Engineers
29 May 14,, 04:57
Well, that is the other reality that SB ... and to an extent Hitesh, tries to ignore. The BJP has a minority government.

Officer of Engineers
29 May 14,, 05:26
Majoritarians in India keep harping about "democracy" and "majority wins", as if a mere majority can allow them to do anything they want, while completely ignoring the "Republic" and "rule of law" partFunny how a minority like LT who achieved battle honours defending the rights of India while SB cowards behind the rights of the majority.

bolo121
29 May 14,, 05:44
Put in place by congress to counter a communist leader of the time in Bombay whose name i cannot recall. Late 60s.

He was an effective counter.
I did recall that he was supported by congress but didnt know the details of his opponent.
Like all such counters his effectiveness came at a heavy price. He brutalized and polarised the atmosphere in Mumbai.



You know i'm not sure if there is any difference in what he said and what minorities would say anytime something comes out that remotely resembles hate speech or amounts to disrespect of their community or religion. One and the same.

Article 19(ii) to the rescue :biggrin:

Satanic verses, Dan Brown, anything inflammatory against (insert family name/group/community/party). All the same isn't it.

Ban, go to jail.

Point taken, after all look at Owasi in Hyderabad.

sated buddha
29 May 14,, 07:00
The truth is we cannot be trusted with the freedoms Americans take for granted.

Why ?

India and America are two different countries. Differnt people. Different societies. Different histories.

While there might be some things we could and should learn, attempt to emulate and internalize from the Americans, as there would be some others they could and probaby would take from us, I am not sure that this is one of them.

We have made our society cohese and work and grow based on tenets of mutual respect and tolerance.

That goes out of the window when you start mouthing off and hurt others. Its simple. There are red lines. Do not cross them. And the fact that they are red lines is because they have historically been colored by real blood.

Learn. Adapt. Coexist.

Or provoke. And reap the wind.

antimony
29 May 14,, 07:08
Let me be brutally honest.

This has been used by every community to suppress freedom of speech. Hindu organizations have used it to stifle artistic expression, Muslims have used it to rail against the Danish cartoon. Someone even went ahead and placed a bounty on the cartoonist. Even Christians used it against seculars who dared to speak out against church issues.

You can either have freedom of speech or you can have censorship. In India we have censorship.

antimony
29 May 14,, 07:08
Let me be brutally honest.

This has been used by every community to suppress freedom of speech. Hindu organizations have used it to stifle artistic expression, Muslims have used it to rail against the Danish cartoon. Someone even went ahead and placed a bounty on the cartoonist. Even Christians used it against seculars who dared to speak out against church issues.

You can either have freedom of speech or you can have censorship. In India we have censorship.

Oracle
29 May 14,, 07:12
Let me be brutally honest.

This has been used by every community to suppress freedom of speech. Hindu organizations have used it to stifle artistic expression, Muslims have used it to rail against the Danish cartoon. Someone even went ahead and placed a bounty on the cartoonist. Even Christians used it against seculars who dared to speak out against church issues.

You can either have freedom of speech or you can have censorship. In India we have censorship.

The question is how do we attain freedom of speech? By renovating cellular jail and exporting all religious & regionalism minded bigots?

sated buddha
29 May 14,, 07:29
So, no respect for freedom of speech because your "sensibilities" were affected.

Freedom to offend more like it.

In such case, it comes partnered with the freedom to get offended.

In a Republic, the right of even one citizen to get offended. And take action acordingly. Rule of Law.

In a Democracy, its the majority which elects their leaders and law makers. Who write the Law. And enforce it.

Its all very connected and simple really.

The rest of your post ..... LOL

sated buddha
29 May 14,, 09:32
Two issues raised by the Colonel, which I cannot repspond to directly, but will address generically nonetheless.

1) "Minority government" is a laughable joke. Or would be if it was not brought up by someone who is neither naive nor unintelligent.

When you have a landslide the like of which has not been seen in 3 decades. Only 31% voted for the BJP. So? This (Indian general elections) is not a two horse race. There are 2 big horses, with 10 odd tattus (ponies) and dozens of khacchars (mules). They all get votes. Coalesce all of these into two polar ends, and you have a 2 party US system, which at least this time (in terms of established pre poll as against the necessistaed post poll alliances of convenience and power broking) got reflected by a Saffron wave.

So no. It is not a minority governement. Its in fact an outright majority governement the likes of which we have seen only 2 or 3 times in the past.

So much so that one of the two horses has been almost (if not fully) relegated to tattu (pony) status! In fact are now just one of 5-6 such tattus of Indian politics.

THAT is the full extent of this Indian vote, which while some outsiders cannot see, unschooled as they may be in the intricacies of Indian politics, some Indians, aware as they are on the other hand, still will not see. Or more accurately, choose not to see.

2) On the isue of "minorities" serving in the forces. Fantastic. They fight for India. JUST like the majority do. And we are grateful to all. The Indian Army and the Indian State has always resisted a religion-wise census of our fighting forces. With good reason. So I am not going to get into this or even respond to "coward" barbs.

Fact is that it is that while the minorities fight alongside the majority against the enemy, it is the majority which remains the majority in the fighting forces as well. And some minorities actually under-represent per their demographic percentages. And equally, some might actualy over-represent. But that's ok. No one forces anyone to fight for India or die for India.

But the fact that is inescapable is that in India it is the majority that protects the minority. Both in war as in peace. On the battlefield, and in our midst. Always has, always will. Its our parampara (tradition).

Because the "majority" do not see "others" as minorities. But as Indians. Hindu all. One nation, one history, one people. The same blood in the same soil. From millenia.

kuku
29 May 14,, 10:55
The right to freedom, and of free speech is only as evolved as the society where this right is being enforced. India sadly is not very evolved, here you can offend people rather easily, and get punished for it.

We can work on trying to change this, however in a society with so much intolerance i doubt anything will happen in my lifetime. Individual rights will continue to suffer in India.

lemontree
29 May 14,, 11:34
SB, I am quite aghast at what you are defending.


We have made our society cohese and work and grow based on tenets of mutual respect and tolerance.

That goes out of the window when you start mouthing off and hurt others. Its simple. There are red lines. Do not cross them. And the fact that they are red lines is because they have historically been colored by real blood.

What nonsense are you mouthing off!

The SS has based its mass support on violence against people of other states who worked in Mumbai. First it was south Indians and now it is against north Indians - and you call that mutual respect and tolerance?

You are idolising an organisation that had burnt and destoryed the Singhania hospital for no fault of the hospital. I'm amazed.


Learn. Adapt. Coexist.

Or provoke. And reap the wind.

You reap as you sow.
BTW, they turn into rats when the other side hits back.
I have faced their militant union leaders and made short work of them.
So they are no big deal.

Blademaster
29 May 14,, 11:37
Funny how a minority like LT who achieved battle honours defending the rights of India while SB cowards behind the rights of the majority.

OOE, you are so far off the mark and you don't even know what you are talking about. Your ignorance shines big time. For all the talk of LT cribbing about minority rights and all, he ignores what have happened to hindus' rights. In short, you are falling for a fallacious narrative without facts backing you up.

What the hell do you think you are and most importantly, what the hell do you know about the hindus' plight in India? For all LTtalk about minorities and being attacked, he conveniently ignores what happens to Hindus in the areas long dominate by Muslims or other minorities.

For starters, Hindus is not one big whole bloc but made of many subgroups and such.

lemontree
29 May 14,, 11:43
For all the talk of LT cribbing about minority rights and all, he ignores what have happened to hindus' rights.
When did I ignore Hindu rights and not defend them when they were violated? (Please do not confuse issues perpeterated by right wing groups, with genuine issues).


What the hell do you think you are and most importantly, what the hell do you know about the hindus' plight in India? For all LTtalk about minorities and being attacked, he conveniently ignores what happens to Hindus in the areas long dominate by Muslims or other minorities.
BM, these are baseless accusations against me.

sated buddha
29 May 14,, 11:45
SB, I am quite aghast at what you are defending.

Why? Do you detect any ideological or sociological inconsistency?


What nonsense are you mouthing off!

The SS has based its mass support on violence against people of other states who worked in Mumbai. First it was south Indians and now it is against north Indians - and you call that mutual respect and tolerance?

You are idolising an organisation that had burnt and destoryed the Singhania hospital for no fault of the hospital. I'm amazed.

You speak as a small minority of Mumbai. The fact is that Mumbai belongs to the Shiv Sena and the Shiv Sena belongs to Mumbai. Mumbaikars love the Shiv Sena. You do not. Does not make you right, and the other 20 million wrong.


You reap as you sow.

Absolutely. Sow and grow organically. Do not infest and create a nuisance. Then pest control needs to be called in.


BTW, they turn into rats when the other side hits back.
I have faced their militant union leaders and made short work of them.
So they are no big deal.

So? Big deal buddy. Me and my HR and security have stood up to week long picketing by the MNS. And driven through a street lined by their goons. Twice a day, day after day. Do not confuse corporate extortion with legitimate concerns. One is commercial, local, easily manageable with the right contacts and phonecalls. The other when it rises, you will have to back off. I think you and I both know that.

Blademaster
29 May 14,, 11:46
SB, I am quite aghast at what you are defending.



What nonsense are you mouthing off!

The SS has based its mass support on violence against people of other states who worked in Mumbai. First it was south Indians and now it is against north Indians - and you call that mutual respect and tolerance?

You are idolising an organisation that had burnt and destoryed the Singhania hospital for no fault of the hospital. I'm amazed.



You reap as you sow.
BTW, they turn into rats when the other side hits back.
I have faced their militant union leaders and made short work of them.
So they are no big deal.

This is what a Muslim has to say about minorities. Muslims are not minorities: Najma is right, her timing is wrong | Firstpost (http://www.firstpost.com/india/minorities-heptulla-said-the-right-thing-but-at-the-wrong-time-1548461.html)

By the way, this is what your precious party have done during their 49 day disastrous reign to create this situation:

NHRC notice to Delhi Govt to show cause why no monetary relief should be given to 12 racially harassed African women , AniNews.in (http://www.aninews.in/newsdetail2/story170349/nhrc-notice-to-delhi-govt-to-show-cause-why-no-monetary-relief-should-be-given-to-12-racially-harassed-african-women.html)

For all of your talk about protecting minorities, the party that you vote for pretty much has a very spotty record of protecting minorities. You are just engaging in your usual narrative of bashing the majority and engaging in the same old tired cliche of decrying "wolf" when there are none to be had. For many years, Hindus were made to feel guilty about their association with religion and meekly follow the western sermonizing bullshit platitudes about respecting minorities' rights and ceding many rights and privileges to those minorities so the "minorities" can be made to feel "peace" with the rest of India and enjoy their privileges that even Hindus cannot even enjoy while at the same time, ignoring what those minorities have done to the majority of Hindus while they were in the rule a while ago.

You keep focusing on SS and highlighting its activities but you have ignored what the other minorities' groups and their activities have done only because SS is a convenient punching bag to carry out your disingenuous narrative and bringing up any mention of the minorities' group and their activities would only serve to undermine your narrative.

Blademaster
29 May 14,, 11:52
When did I ignore Hindu rights and not defend them when they were violated? (Please do not confuse issues perpeterated by right wing groups, with genuine issues).


BM, these are baseless accusations against me.


You have so focused on the activities of SS and highlighting their activities and extrapolating those as to be the theme which the minorities are under attack and the hindus are responsible for it and making it all about right wing attacks. In short, you very are engaging in the sort of communal activities that we so detest. Have you forgotten about what the left wing did in WB when their goons pretty much attacked and killed their way against any opposition in the name of secularism while the UPA-1 stood by and did nothing?

You have pretty much talked about only the right wing issues and extrapolate them into making the narrative that BJP is anti-minority and goes around and beat up people. Where were you when some of Congress' allies during the UPA beat up some people who were in the minority in those areas held and controlled by UPA' allies?

Double Edge
29 May 14,, 12:16
I did recall that he was supported by congress but didnt know the details of his opponent.
I'm not sure if the name Oracle suggested is the right one. A friend who grew up in Bombay and was active in student politics years ago told me this over a few drinks a couple of weeks back.


Like all such counters his effectiveness came at a heavy price. He brutalized and polarised the atmosphere in Mumbai.
But he prevented the rise of the commies there when they were ascendant at a time when it mattered. Industry would have been wiped out of that state otherwise, leaving another Bengal or Kerela. It's no surprise that Anil Ambani had a few words to say at his funeral.

Officer of Engineers
29 May 14,, 13:42
What the hell do you think you are and most importantly, what the hell do you know about the hindus' plight in India? For all LTtalk about minorities and being attacked, he conveniently ignores what happens to Hindus in the areas long dominate by Muslims or other minorities.You're not talking rights here, Hitesh. You're talking one group trumping another group be it Muslims or Hindus. What's between you and God is between you and God. No one can come between that. No one.

And I did not use LT's narrative. SB's own narrative is enough to scare me. They reeked of the Third Reich and the Fatherland.

Oracle
29 May 14,, 14:35
I'm not sure if the name Oracle suggested is the right one. A friend who grew up in Bombay and was active in student politics years ago told me this over a few drinks a couple of weeks back.


In December 1967, the CPI headquarters of Mumbai at Dalvi Building in Parel, which is situated in the very midst of the textile area, was savagely attacked by SS hoodlums and almost destroyed. Organised attempts were made to break up Communist public meetings and several leaders and activists of both the CPI and the CPI(M) were physically assaulted. The climax was reached on June 6, 1970, when armed goondas of the SS murdered the sitting MLA of the CPI, Krishna Desai. Krishna Desai was a popular and militant mass leader in the textile belt and had been elected municipal corporator four times before he was elected to the state assembly in 1967. This was the first major political assassination in Mumbai since independence, and it sent shock waves through the city and state. The leadership of the entire opposition alongwith thousands of incensed workers, marched in Krishna Desai's funeral procession. Opposition leaders directly accused the Shiv Sena and the Congress state government in general, and Bal Thackeray and Vasantrao Naik in particular, of being hand in glove in the perpetration of this heinous crime.

LINK (http://www.cpim.org/marxist/200002_marxist_sena_dhawle.htm)


Another main characteristic of the early years of the Shiv Sena was the frequent struggles against communist trade unions. Prior to the formation of the Shiv Sena, the Communist Party of India played a dominant role in labour politics in Mumbai. The Shiv Sena was supported by elements inside the Indian National Congress, who hoped that the new organization would be capable of weakening the communist trade union influence. Soon Shiv Sena cadres were involved in a series of violent conflicts with the communist trade union activists. In 1970 the CPI MLA of Dadar, Krishna Desai, was assassinated. CPI charged the Shiv Sena for the murder, and held Thackeray as responsible for the act.

LINK (https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Shiv_Sena.html)

antimony
29 May 14,, 15:21
Freedom to offend more like it.

In such case, it comes partnered with the freedom to get offended.

In a Republic, the right of even one citizen to get offended. And take action acordingly. Rule of Law.

In a Democracy, its the majority which elects their leaders and law makers. Who write the Law. And enforce it.

Its all very connected and simple really.

The rest of your post ..... LOL

Your understanding of democracy and republic are tragic, the conclusions you draw are disastrous. By your logic, any dissent against any government, any criticism against anyone is quickly turned into offense and subjugated.

There is no right not to be offended. If you do not want to be offended, stop listening to the offensive discourse.

antimony
29 May 14,, 15:23
OOE, you are so far off the mark and you don't even know what you are talking about. Your ignorance shines big time. For all the talk of LT cribbing about minority rights and all, he ignores what have happened to hindus' rights. In short, you are falling for a fallacious narrative without facts backing you up.

What the hell do you think you are and most importantly, what the hell do you know about the hindus' plight in India? For all LTtalk about minorities and being attacked, he conveniently ignores what happens to Hindus in the areas long dominate by Muslims or other minorities.

For starters, Hindus is not one big whole bloc but made of many subgroups and such.

What are these Hindu rights? HUF tax laws? Inheritance laws? temple right?

the rest, Hindu plight in Muslim areas, are criminal activities, which goes on to show the lack of a rule of law

sated buddha
29 May 14,, 15:28
Your understanding of democracy and republic are tragic, the conclusions you draw are disastrous. By your logic, any dissent against any government, any criticism against anyone is quickly turned into offense and subjugated.

I'm actually giving you a taste of your own medicine. Seems its as unpalatable to you as it is to me .....

Coming back.

If it gives offense and could snowball into a situation, it will be. We have more important things to take care of here than play nursemaid to big mouths. Stupid ones at that who Darwin should have culled by now.


There is no right not to be offended. If you do not want to be offended, stop listening to the offensive discourse.

You cannot put something in the public domain and order others to stay away. Say what you want in your home. When you speak in public, others will hear and react.

You don't like the reaction. Others don't like what caused the reaction.

A situation develops.

So either be judicious in what you say. And exert self control. Or have others exert it for you. Hopefully the state.

sated buddha
29 May 14,, 15:58
For starters, Hindus is not one big whole bloc but made of many subgroups and such.

An important point which most non-Indians do not understand.

Many Indians as well.

"Hindus" in the way it is used today, is as if its one homogeneous religion, Abrahamnic religion style, insofar as they worship a single God.

It is not.

Hindus as a group insofar as you can actually group them are as diverse (in fact much more so) as the larger whole of "Non-Hindu" India, and the only commonality between them within this smaller group, is the same cultural historical commonality between all Indians as part of the larger group.

And by now you all know what that commonality is called.

We are all cutural Hindus.

There is no majority and no minority on the basis of faith at all. Just on the basis of numbers from the larger pool, the whole. For consensus. And the larger good.

Doktor
29 May 14,, 17:32
Stupid ones at that who Darwin should have culled by now.
Wonder which historic figures will agree with this statement of yours.


You cannot put something in the public domain and order others to stay away. Say what you want in your home. When you speak in public, others will hear and react.

You don't like the reaction. Others don't like what caused the reaction.
They can talk, too, what stops them. They can't take lives because they got offended.


So either be judicious in what you say. And exert self control. Or have others exert it for you. Hopefully the state.
Tell me you are not serious. Wait, you are.

Oracle
29 May 14,, 17:53
LT, do you have have any details on what exactly was posted in each case. I know in the second case it was pretty offensive, pornographic even?

For example, I know the IT reins have been tightening in our country for some time. My posting and blogging style, both here and elsewhere in the etherspace, is well known by my younger sister, who is a IT geek of some repute and a big shot in the industry till recently when she took a voluntary sabbatical for her kids.

She was over with her family for the weekend and we got into some socio-political discussion and she was VERY worried about what I was posting, and how, and where.

I guess you would say that now with "my" side in power, I need not worry for 5 years at least. But the broader issue is that even from the Congress and Kapil Sibal's time, the powers do seem to be getting antsy about us mouthing off.

It is something that will come to a head sooner rather than later. And we, both you and me, will find ourselves in this fight on the same side.

I overlooked this post. My bad SB. I love technical discussions. Some questions.

#1. IT geek of some repute - if that is the case, considering she isn't a CEO, maybe she knows me and vice-versa. What technology & domain is she working on? Ask and tell, if that's an issue. And if she's a CEO, I don't think you'd mind letting us know, since you own big guns in the North East, have a senior Police Officer in your family, know the pulse of every single Indian et. al. Afterall, you seem to be on the correct side of everything.

#2. How in heaven's sake does your younger sister know what you post here and there, and wherever we don't know? Let me lessen your burden a bit, it ain't telepathy, right? So, how? If she has fixed a bug/keylogger in your system, then I understand, but having taken a voluntary sabbatical for her kids, I wonder if she has the time for silly mischief that a Grade-V student can accomplish. If that is the case, then IT geek of no repute.

#3. If not, how did she do it? Ethical hacker? I deal with them for penetration testing of our products. I'd be really interested in learning the how's.

Wanting to learn more, your turn. :)

Oracle
29 May 14,, 17:58
You're not talking rights here, Hitesh. You're talking one group trumping another group be it Muslims or Hindus. What's between you and God is between you and God. No one can come between that. No one.

And I did not use LT's narrative. SB's own narrative is enough to scare me. They reeked of the Third Reich and the Fatherland.

Sir, it's not so bad here in India. I mean, look at this very discourse, 1 or 2 against the motion. So, the majority of Indians are tolerant and this is precisely the reason why we ain't living in Somalia like conditions. The renegades here and in India number less, that is the reason they have no real play in society and come to boards such as WAB to preach extremism. They want to be heard. Poor fellas, they ain't flying in here, too.

antimony
29 May 14,, 18:58
An important point which most non-Indians do not understand.

Many Indians as well.

"Hindus" in the way it is used today, is as if its one homogeneous religion, Abrahamnic religion style, insofar as they worship a single God.

It is not.

Hindus as a group insofar as you can actually group them are as diverse (in fact much more so) as the larger whole of "Non-Hindu" India, and the only commonality between them within this smaller group, is the same cultural historical commonality between all Indians as part of the larger group.

And by now you all know what that commonality is called.

We are all cutural Hindus.

There is no majority and no minority on the basis of faith at all. Just on the basis of numbers from the larger pool, the whole. For consensus. And the larger good.

And you guys are trying to turn all of this into a majoritarian, authoritarian religion. A BJP supporter spelled it out to me. Everything now is in the name of Ram. We are losing the pluralistic, multifaceted Hinduism to an aggressive, one dimensional Hinduism.

antimony
29 May 14,, 19:00
Sir, it's not so bad here in India. I mean, look at this very discourse, 1 or 2 against the motion. So, the majority of Indians are tolerant and this is precisely the reason why we ain't living in Somalia like conditions. The renegades here and in India number less, that is the reason they have no real play in society and come to boards such as WAB to preach extremism. They want to be heard. Poor fellas, they ain't flying in here, too.

Unfortunately, people of his ilk are in power. Expect more of this. I ahve sure we will have growth and acche din (good days) and whatnot. We will also have more Ram Sena, more Muthaliks, more moral policing.

Oracle
29 May 14,, 19:13
Unfortunately, people of his ilk are in power. Expect more of this. I ahve sure we will have growth and acche din (good days) and whatnot. We will also have more Ram Sena, more Muthaliks, more moral policing.

You're fear is not without reason my friend. But feeding the trolls means giving them more airtime. So what should be done? I'm waiting for SB to respond to my post, and not run away when his lies have been compromised as before. Let's see.

antimony
29 May 14,, 19:18
I'm actually giving you a taste of your own medicine. Seems its as unpalatable to you as it is to me .....


What medicine? Most of what you say is unpalatable because it is ill informed, illogical, inconsistent, irrational, some of the above or all of the above.

BUT


I would speak out for your right to mouth off. You have every right (in my view) to spout off whatever nonsense you can think of.



If it gives offense and could snowball into a situation, it will be. We have more important things to take care of here than play nursemaid to big mouths. Stupid ones at that who Darwin should have culled by now.


You are telling me that your belief system is so insecure that you cannot withstand someone giving you offense. Let me tell you this. It does not bother me to hear someone speaking ill of my country, my flag, my ethnicity, nationality or whatever, because I am supremely confident of my stature. You calling me a Bong instead of a Bengali, or a desi instead of Indian does not make me see red. You, on the other hand, are on a short fuse.

You talk about Darwin, as in survival of the fittest, as in the rule of the jungle. If that is your hope and aspiration about India, I feel sorry for you, as I was hoping we would become more of a civilization with the rule of law.



You cannot put something in the public domain and order others to stay away. Say what you want in your home. When you speak in public, others will hear and react.

You don't like the reaction. Others don't like what caused the reaction.


Cannot or should not? With your Shiv Sena and Ram Sena goons around, I agree that I cannot, not unless I have my AR15 with me to hunt down rabid dogs.

Should not, as in legally? I sure hope we hope that we have that right. If you don't like the message, don't see it

Should not, as in morally? I would agree. No civilized person should intentionally hurt other people feelings, and instead should engage them in debate



A situation develops.

So either be judicious in what you say. And exert self control. Or have others exert it for you. Hopefully the state.

There again, the threat of use of force. Typical brute fascist mentality.

antimony
29 May 14,, 19:35
You're fear is not without reason my friend. But feeding the trolls means giving them more airtime. So what should be done? I'm waiting for SB to respond to my post, and not run away when his lies have been compromised as before. Let's see.

I am guessing that you will see your post on his ignore list.

antimony
30 May 14,, 00:29
YHave you forgotten about what the left wing did in WB when their goons pretty much attacked and killed their way against any opposition in the name of secularism while the UPA-1 stood by and did nothing?


Please explain,

CPM cadres used to attack TMC and Congress supporters. What did that have to do with religion?

Firestorm
30 May 14,, 00:36
LT, we have been living in North Korea for quite some time. I don't know why you woke up so late.

Kapil Sibal's law: Tweet and go to jail. (http://www.rediff.com/news/column/kapil-sibals-law--tweet-and-go-to-jail/20121101.htm)



So an aam aadmi tweeted that the Union finance minister's son Karti P Chidambaram has amassed more wealth than Robert Vadra, and voila, he gets arrested! Chidu Jr tweets: 'Free speech is subject to reasonable restrictions. I have a right to seek constitutional/legal remedies over defamatory/scurrilous tweets.'

Except that, as far as is known, the businessman whose Web site describes him as 'The Young Politician', has not charged the writer of the 'defamatory' tweet with defamation. Why not?
.....

Section 66A of the Information Technology (Amendment) Act, 2008, came into force in 2010. The section makes punishable with three years in jail posting online 'any information that is grossly offensive or has menacing character.'
There's more to it. A non-bailable arrest warrant for you if you upload information that you knew was false, but you posted it only to cause 'annoyance, inconvenience, danger, obstruction, insult, injury, criminal intimidation, enmity, hatred, or ill will.'
....

In April 2011, the West Bengal police arrested Jadavpur University Professor Ambikesh Mohapatra for merely forwarding on e-mail a cartoon making fun of Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee, using a reference to a Satyajit Ray detective story. It reached Mamta Banerjee and she was offended.
...

Similarly, Congress and Dalit activists in Maharashtra targeted cartoonist Aseem Trivedi for his anti-corruption cartoons that he displayed at the MMRDA grounds in Mumbai in December 2011. Their real intent, it seems, was to show the Anna Hazare movement as being anti-national. They charged him with the cognisable offence of sedition, but also with Sibal's Law -- because the cartoons were also available online.
...

Senior television journalists like Barkha Dutt and Sagarika Ghose constantly complain about online trolling and 'hate speech'. They have thus helped build an environment in favour of Sibal's Law -- 'causing annoyance', 'menacing character', 'grossly offensive' are all good descriptors of how the powerful see online dissent. These journalists have thus favoured draconian laws while paying lip service to free speech by arguing that while corporate media is covered by legal restrictions online media seems to be a free-for-all.

They need to get rid of Section 66(A) and other such offensive parts of the IPC which infringe on our Freedom of Speech. The problem facing the police is that if someone does make a complaint, they are obligated to act.

I'll be disappointed if the Modi government doesn't get around to amending these parts of the Constitution during their tenure.

antimony
30 May 14,, 01:36
LT, we have been living in North Korea for quite some time. I don't know why you woke up so late.

Kapil Sibal's law: Tweet and go to jail. (http://www.rediff.com/news/column/kapil-sibals-law--tweet-and-go-to-jail/20121101.htm)

They need to get rid of Section 66(A) and other such offensive parts of the IPC which infringe on our Freedom of Speech. The problem facing the police is that if someone does make a complaint, they are obligated to act.


I completely agree. That is why I said that this has been used by any party when it suited them. Only now, it is becoming more blatant. It does not have anything to do with Modi directly, it has everything to do with his supporters who now have a feeling of entitlement. Look at SB's imperious comments on this forum on how those who do not behave will face the consequences.



I'll be disappointed if the Modi government doesn't get around to amending these parts of the Constitution during their tenure.

If your hope is that Modi Sarkar will show any leniency on these matters, I suggest you set yourself up for a long line of disappointments.

Oracle
30 May 14,, 07:19
I am guessing that you will see your post on his ignore list.

I don't think SB is the guy to ignore posts. He takes things heads on. Maybe, only when his contour of lies are questioned, then. I dread the day I try to portray myself as Tarzan in here, as many in here are scholars in their respective fields and would tear me to shreds. I'm still hoping for SB to be kind enough and respond to post # 81.

lemontree
30 May 14,, 11:30
LT, we have been living in North Korea for quite some time. I don't know why you woke up so late.
Good point.


They need to get rid of Section 66(A) and other such offensive parts of the IPC which infringe on our Freedom of Speech. The problem facing the police is that if someone does make a complaint, they are obligated to act.

I'll be disappointed if the Modi government doesn't get around to amending these parts of the Constitution during their tenure.
I doubt that they will remove this law, as it helps to control the masses.

lemontree
30 May 14,, 11:37
Why? Do you detect any ideological or sociological inconsistency?
No I'm convinced of your RSS leanings.


You speak as a small minority of Mumbai. The fact is that Mumbai belongs to the Shiv Sena and the Shiv Sena belongs to Mumbai. Mumbaikars love the Shiv Sena. You do not. Does not make you right, and the other 20 million wrong.
Unfortunately you are right here. The elections were in their favour so I cannot argue with that.


Absolutely. Sow and grow organically. Do not infest and create a nuisance. Then pest control needs to be called in.
Dont threaten...sitting behind a laptop.


The other when it rises, you will have to back off. I think you and I both know that.
The otherside is rising too....

lemontree
30 May 14,, 11:44
This is what a Muslim has to say about minorities. Muslims are not minorities: Najma is right, her timing is wrong | Firstpost (http://www.firstpost.com/india/minorities-heptulla-said-the-right-thing-but-at-the-wrong-time-1548461.html).
Irrelevant to your accusations against me.


By the way, this is what your precious party have done during their 49 day disastrous reign to create this situation:
My precious party???....you hardly understand my political standing then mate.


NHRC notice to Delhi Govt to show cause why no monetary relief should be given to 12 racially harassed African women , AniNews.in (http://www.aninews.in/newsdetail2/story170349/nhrc-notice-to-delhi-govt-to-show-cause-why-no-monetary-relief-should-be-given-to-12-racially-harassed-african-women.html)
Irrelevant argument mate


For all of your talk about protecting minorities, the party that you vote for pretty much has a very spotty record of protecting minorities. You are just engaging in your usual narrative of bashing the majority and engaging in the same old tired cliche of decrying "wolf" when there are none to be had. For many years, Hindus were made to feel guilty about their association with religion and meekly follow the western sermonizing bullshit platitudes about respecting minorities' rights and ceding many rights and privileges to those minorities so the "minorities" can be made to feel "peace" with the rest of India and enjoy their privileges that even Hindus cannot even enjoy while at the same time, ignoring what those minorities have done to the majority of Hindus while they were in the rule a while ago.
Please give specifics, you are beating about the bush. Dont pander me with the RSS speak.


You keep focusing on SS and highlighting its activities but you have ignored what the other minorities' groups and their activities have done only because SS is a convenient punching bag to carry out your disingenuous narrative and bringing up any mention of the minorities' group and their activities would only serve to undermine your narrative.
Oh, please educate me on what harm was done by the South Indians and North Indians working in Mumbai, and what "hindu" rights were the SS protecting by targetting own Indian citizens?

lemontree
30 May 14,, 11:49
You have so focused on the activities of SS and highlighting their activities and extrapolating those as to be the theme which the minorities are under attack and the hindus are responsible for it and making it all about right wing attacks. In short, you very are engaging in the sort of communal activities that we so detest.
Please read the post below...there is nothing about minorities here only about Indians. So dont you dare call me communal.


The SS has based its mass support on violence against people of other states who worked in Mumbai. First it was south Indians and now it is against north Indians - and you call that mutual respect and tolerance?

You are idolising an organisation that had burnt and destoryed the Singhania hospital for no fault of the hospital. I'm amazed.


You have pretty much talked about only the right wing issues and extrapolate them into making the narrative that BJP is anti-minority and goes around and beat up people. Where were you when some of Congress' allies during the UPA beat up some people who were in the minority in those areas held and controlled by UPA' allies?
Be specific please.

sated buddha
30 May 14,, 12:02
No I'm convinced of your RSS leanings.

As I've said in the past, we understand each other.

Coming back .....

You have an issue with an Indian buying into the ideology and actions and contributions of one of our oldest and most respected organisations? The ideological fountainhead of the ruling party of our nation? A party which has swept the country. What does that tell you about about what your countrymen think about the RSS?


Unfortunately you are right here. The elections were in their favour so I cannot argue with that.

I know I am right. Have always known since I started my debates with you. When will you know that you were always wrong?

And please LT - the elections were not just "in their favor." The Saffron combine SWEPT Mumbai. SWEPT Maharashtra. And will SWEEP the elections to come.


Dont threaten...sitting behind a laptop.

Who is threatening? This is our state. We will work to keep it clean. And safe. For our old and weak. For our kids. For our women. Where is the dissonance in that? Its called Citizen's Watch in other places.


The otherside is rising too....

The otherside is awakening. And increasingly coming over to this side. Open your eyes and see the reality around you. At work. In your surroundings. On the streets. On social media.

Some sadly are still asleep.

Oracle
30 May 14,, 17:44
/\/\/\ SB, any chance you'd reply to post # 81. Your credibility is seriously at stake here.

Doktor
30 May 14,, 21:10
/\/\/\ SB, any chance you'd reply to post # 81. Your credibility is seriously at stake here.

How dare you?

Double Edge
31 May 14,, 00:04
And you guys are trying to turn all of this into a majoritarian, authoritarian religion. A BJP supporter spelled it out to me. Everything now is in the name of Ram. We are losing the pluralistic, multifaceted Hinduism to an aggressive, one dimensional Hinduism.
Relax, you were talking to a fan boy. They will come out now in droves, problem is they misunderstand why the BJP won, so they bring on the old tired rhetoric that lost the BJP two elections in a row and believe this time it will really happen. I don't know but i think these guys are going to be sorely disappointed.

The constitution for them is a piece of paper that can be trashed at will. Parliament exits only to serve them. They only mouth their aspirations, no concern as to whether its doable at all, they don't care. They want it and now. I saw this with the islamists already in Egypt. of course they will have full on sharia real soon now.

So the party will try to appease them now & again and if it fails they can say at least they tried. Saw this in my state, lower house & upper house pass a law. But if its repugnant to the centre then the president has to take a call. She never did. Nothing happened. There are checks & balances in the system, if anything happens its with the support of the people. Lose that support and you're out. If you look at the way the electorate has been trashing parties of late, they are not in the mood for lack of delivery.

antimony
31 May 14,, 00:48
Relax, you were talking to a fan boy. They will come out now in droves, problem is they misunderstand why the BJP won, so they bring on the old tired rhetoric that lost the BJP two elections in a row and believe this time it will really happen. I don't know but i think these guys are going to be sorely disappointed.

The constitution for them is a piece of paper that can be trashed at will. Parliament exits only to serve them. They only mouth their aspirations, no concern as to whether its doable at all, they don't care. They want it and now. I saw this with the islamists already in Egypt. of course they will have full on sharia real soon now.

So the party will try to appease them now & again and if it fails they can say at least they tried. Saw this in my state, lower house & upper house pass a law. But if its repugnant to the centre then the president has to take a call. She never did. Nothing happened. There are checks & balances in the system, if anything happens its with the support of the people. Lose that support and you're out. If you look at the way the electorate has been trashing parties of late, they are not in the mood for lack of delivery.

DE, the thing is, there is no misunderstanding, only misrepresentation.

If you go back down the thread of the election, these same lost souls were saying that Modi will bring abiout development. Now that he is in power, suddenly it is a saffron wave and hindutva and article 370.

This chest thumping by internet warriors claiming to have brass balls and the superpower of writing short sentences is rather tiresome.

sated buddha
31 May 14,, 06:19
Given a choice between a guy with brass balls versus another who needs a multitude of guns and fiberglass crossbows to compensate for the lack of even really small squishy grape sized apologies of the same, I know which I would prefer in a fight.

And I guess a nation would too.

Because the nation can give brass balls a gun.

But a nation cannot give squishy balls a brass upgrade.

antimony
31 May 14,, 07:21
Given a choice between a guy with brass balls versus another who needs a multitude of guns and fiberglass crossbows to compensate for the lack of even really small squishy grape sized apologies of the same, I know which I would prefer in a fight.

And I guess a nation would too.

Because the nation can give brass balls a gun.

But a nation cannot give squishy balls a brass upgrade.

Ouch, someone hit you in the balls with a gun? Did it hurt? Is that why you are writing longer sentences?

Officer of Engineers
31 May 14,, 07:24
Given a choice between a guy with brass balls versus another who needs a multitude of guns and fiberglass crossbows to compensate for the lack of even really small squishy grape sized apologies of the same, I know which I would prefer in a fight.Ouch, someone hit you in the balls with a gun? Did it hurt? Is that why you are writing longer sentences?No! He did not write that!!!!! HEEHHAHEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yeah, that's it! Bring a pair of brass balls to a gun fight.

Thank god, the InA requires brains above brass balls.

sated buddha
31 May 14,, 07:25
Ouch, someone hit you in the balls with a gun? Did it hurt? Is that why you are writing longer sentences?

Guns bounce off brass balls.

Squishy grape sized balls on the other hand one needs an expeditionary force to locate.

Oracle
31 May 14,, 07:27
Guns bounce off brass balls.

Squishy grape sized balls on the other hand one needs an expeditionary force to locate.

Any chance you'd actually respond to my post rather than weighing the size of balls. :biggrin:

sated buddha
31 May 14,, 07:28
Any chance you'd actually respond to my post rather than weighing the size of balls. :biggrin:

You don't weigh squishy balls.

You make a slide smear and put them under a microscope.

Blademaster
31 May 14,, 12:46
Tweet, retweet: Narendra Modi to unblock 10,000 handles Manmohan Singh blocked | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-tweet-retweet-narendra-modi-to-unblock-10000-handles-manmohan-singh-blocked-1992295)

This was done during MMS' reign.

antimony
31 May 14,, 14:30
Guns bounce off brass balls.

Squishy grape sized balls on the other hand one needs an expeditionary force to locate.

That's right. Be Brave. Stand Strong. Buy some. Brasso.

Polish up.

Those balls

antimony
31 May 14,, 14:33
Tweet, retweet: Narendra Modi to unblock 10,000 handles Manmohan Singh blocked | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-tweet-retweet-narendra-modi-to-unblock-10000-handles-manmohan-singh-blocked-1992295)

This was done during MMS' reign.

Modi is certainly hitting the right notes. However, it his his supporters I am more apprehensive about. Note how soon Narendra Modi was going to enter the history books. Good thing he put a stop to that.

Double Edge
31 May 14,, 15:53
Tweet, retweet: Narendra Modi to unblock 10,000 handles Manmohan Singh blocked | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-tweet-retweet-narendra-modi-to-unblock-10000-handles-manmohan-singh-blocked-1992295)

This was done during MMS' reign.

Recently, Facebook, in its transparency report for 2013, had disclosed that India led the world in the number of censorship requests. India, it said, restricted content 4,765 times. In comparison, Turkey, which came second, restricted content only 2,014 times.
Bingo!

bolo121
31 May 14,, 15:58
A damn shame.
Even sultan Erdogan is more restrained than us.
So much for freedom and democracy.

Double Edge
31 May 14,, 16:09
You have an issue with an Indian buying into the ideology and actions and contributions of one of our oldest and most respected organisations? The ideological fountainhead of the ruling party of our nation? A party which has swept the country. What does that tell you about about what your countrymen think about the RSS?
That's the thing, we had a young guy here some time back who claimed to be in the RSS, his views were quite sharp.

It got me thinking to what extent he actually reflected what the RSS is about. Personally i cannot believe the BJP could have swept the country on the basis of what that guy said. There is no way an org could have sustained itself like that. His views were more radical, when i see people going off like this i think they are more influenced by the radical spin-offs than the RSS itself. There is quite a bit of crossover in what is said online by people claiming to be from the RSS. Those spin-offs exist for a reason, the RSS isn't hard core enough for them. The young are more attracted to emphatic statements than wooly abstract ones.

Let's not forget Advani was a champion of the RSS not interfering with the BJP. He wanted autonomy for the BJP to set policy. Things changed after the 2004 defeat, changed again after the 2009 defeat. I feel so long as the BJP is doing ok, the RSS is strictly hands off. It's only when things go wrong, factionalism, infighting etc, that they become more involved. Once that sets in the party is sunk, applies to any party. The people will sense the weakness and kick them out.

Bear in mind Modi has the power to reform the RSS or destroy it. We're in for an interesting ride.

sated buddha
31 May 14,, 17:02
Do you remember what his ID here was?

ajhax
31 May 14,, 20:21
Bear in mind Modi has the power to reform the RSS or destroy it. We're in for an interesting ride.

Rulers with authoritarian tendencies don't like random people poking nose in their domain. I think, people who are hoping Modi would follow RSS diktat are going to be disappointed. He is his own man.

Interestingly, RSS has started making some right noises. Well at least, relatively right.

From homosexuality to FDI: Will the Modi sarkar reveal a new-look RSS? | Firstpost (http://www.firstpost.com/politics/nod-to-homosexuality-fdi-will-the-modi-sarkar-reveal-a-new-look-rss-1550393.html)

Double Edge
01 Jun 14,, 00:30
Do you remember what his ID here was?
doppelganger (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/members/doppelganger.html)

antimony
01 Jun 14,, 03:16
doppelganger (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/members/doppelganger.html)

Now I remember who Sated Buddha reminds me of

Oracle
01 Jun 14,, 06:11
That's the thing, we had a young guy here some time back who claimed to be in the RSS, his views were quite sharp.

It got me thinking to what extent he actually reflected what the RSS is about. Personally i cannot believe the BJP could have swept the country on the basis of what that guy said. There is no way an org could have sustained itself like that. His views were more radical, when i see people going off like this i think they are more influenced by the radical spin-offs than the RSS itself. There is quite a bit of crossover in what is said online by people claiming to be from the RSS. Those spin-offs exist for a reason, the RSS isn't hard core enough for them. The young are more attracted to emphatic statements than wooly abstract ones.

Let's not forget Advani was a champion of the RSS not interfering with the BJP. He wanted autonomy for the BJP to set policy. Things changed after the 2004 defeat, changed again after the 2009 defeat. I feel so long as the BJP is doing ok, the RSS is strictly hands off. It's only when things go wrong, factionalism, infighting etc, that they become more involved. Once that sets in the party is sunk, applies to any party. The people will sense the weakness and kick them out.

Bear in mind Modi has the power to reform the RSS or destroy it. We're in for an interesting ride.

This is a well summed up post.

Right wing parties/ individuals are not necessarily bad. They value their sense of patriotism towards the country just like I value my freedom, and mostly are receptive towards ideas that could help the Nation grow. It's when a few try to create a line dividing people into religious sects, that things go worse. This gives a cover to the hardcore extremists (trolls in droves who come out) to get even, to what they perceive as an injustice & unfinished business since the Muslim invaders first came into the sub-continent.

The selection of Modi as a PM candidate has already proved the sidelining of the RSS in BJP's policy-making arena. The RSS was against an OBC leading India, however Modi's credentials as CM of Gujarat and as a pro-development guy got the ball rolling. Migrants who went to Gujarat to work in factories and mills and in construction projects started carrying the message of development back home, to their remote villages and towns of other States. Among the many these migrant workers carried the message of wider and cleaner roads and cities, 24X7 power & water supply, ease of starting a small business. Apart from the PR team, it was the people at the grassroots who helped create the Modi phenomena. Frankly, I think Modi's stature is going to get bigger than the RSS. And as months roll into years, we'd see the importance of RSS being limited to social/welfare policies. Keeping the streets garbage free, maybe?

Oracle
01 Jun 14,, 07:37
Now I remember who Sated Buddha reminds me of

And it makes me wonder why SB has, twice or thrice, insisted on making a point that most Indians wouldn't last here in WAB for more than a week. WAB needs to have religious extremist leanings? :confused:

Double Edge
01 Jun 14,, 12:14
And it makes me wonder why SB has, twice or thrice, insisted on making a point that most Indians wouldn't last here in WAB for more than a week. WAB needs to have religious extremist leanings? :confused:
Given the topic of this thread, am open to anything, so long as what is said can be backed up or at least argued adequately. That can be quite an uphill task.

Is what is said a reflection of the subject in discussion or does it say more about the person making the statement.

Double Edge
01 Jun 14,, 12:47
Do not be a moron.

Especially when others are going to get hurt because you were a moron.

In an ideal world, Darwinism should work faster. Be less selective. Lose some good at the cost of purging most of the crap from the gene pool.
Appreciate that this is a difficult indeed alien concept to grasp. Completely at odds with what we are accustomed to.

What is moronic is a girl types something, somebody trashes her uncle's practice and she gets hauled in for what she said rather than the vandals who presumably got off scot free.


Who decides what is incitement and what is kosher "people exercising their right to express themselves"?

Where are you going to draw that line?

And when you do draw the line, do you speak for everyone?
Incitement is explicitly saying go kill THOSE people or wishing them harm, they should not live or be allowed to live. It isn't implicit or indirect but always explicit & direct. How language is used is critical. It's not what you think is said but rather what is or was said.

Simple test, have applied it on numerous occasions here and its surprising how many fail the test. Yet the outcry is always there that hate speech is being used.


Or are you taking away from some/many THEIR right to feel offended, incited, aggrieved?

In effect, do you decide for them by drawing that line? One way or the other.
Feeling offended, aggrieved is a function of perception. I cannot offend you unless you allow yourself to be offended. You are always in control of that. If you lose that control then its your fault.


Does not sound either more enlightened or even remotely workable frankly. But I'm not saying I'm one of the 9 out of 10 Indians either. There is theory and intellectualization, and there is cold hard reality.

India today lives with its reality. Not what a Utopian ideal should or would look like. We Indians are great at coexisting, adjusting, tolerating. Why set out to mend something that's not broken?
Would not call it broken , the existing system is functional to a point. I'm advocating for more freedom.


Because the majority demanded it. And would accept nothing less.

That majority getting its way was Democracy in action. One lesson down, many more to go.

Well, we had this particular freedom at the outset, then 19(ii) was inserted and our freedom was reduced on spurious grounds.


India and America are two different countries. Differnt people. Different societies. Different histories.
Same argument was used to say democracy and Islam are not compatible, Arabs cannot have democracy. Flawed. This is why i brought up the 1952 elections, which would have been a strange alien like ritual for a lot of people.

Freedom is not culture specific its a universal longing.


We have made our society cohese and work and grow based on tenets of mutual respect and tolerance.

That goes out of the window when you start mouthing off and hurt others. Its simple. There are red lines. Do not cross them. And the fact that they are red lines is because they have historically been colored by real blood.

Learn. Adapt. Coexist.

Or provoke. And reap the wind.
What this does is keep us thin skinned & overly sensitive for longer. If its this easy to offend people. Indians are easy to wind up.

This is weakness not strength.

Oracle
01 Jun 14,, 16:04
Given the topic of this thread, am open to anything, so long as what is said can be backed up or at least argued adequately. That can be quite an uphill task.

Is what is said a reflection of the subject in discussion or does it say more about the person making the statement.

Certainly not a subject in discussion. And we both know what.

Blademaster
01 Jun 14,, 16:19
Bingo!

So it put to bed to the assertion that India just woke up as North Korea, insinuating that somehow under Modi, India is turning into N. Korea or somewhat. Guess what? India has already turned into a North Korea state for the last 10 years.

sated buddha
02 Jun 14,, 07:22
doppelganger (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/members/doppelganger.html)

Thanks. Young, crude, politically incorrect in so many ways, obviously has anger management issues, but clearly Indian nonetheless.

As I said to someone (Doktor?) some time ago. It would be a gross fallacy to take the motely crew of Indians here and make judgments on the larger whole of India and Indians based on the same.

India is diverse. Very diverse. And only an Indian really gets the myriad undercurrents.

As DE rightly said, the WAB is not a democracy. It runs on rules. And those that do not play by them do not last. Like any other group, it also has a certain general "acceptable" world view. One though which is dynamic, evolving and certainly not set in stone. It also attracts a certain type with a certain world view, who gravitate and find a comfort level within. Those that do not, or cannot play by the rules, eventually snap and move on.

As with other forums and international groups, it is best to be yourself and let things happen as they will. Because eventually, even with the anonymity the Internet affords, bonds are made, connections forged, friendships even, and one cannot sustain a lie forever.

In the few interactions I personally have had with those from the adminsitration here, I have found them to be fair, intelligent, very well informed, and at a level of maturity not found too many places elsewhere. Its a good group to be a part of, frictions and all.

sated buddha
02 Jun 14,, 09:15
Chaos, stone pelting and rasta roko: Shiv Sainiks take to streets in Pune over controversial Facebook post; FIR lodged

An FIR has been registered here against an unidentified person for posting controversial pictures containing alleged derogatory references to warrior king Shivaji and Shiv Sena leader late Bal Thackeray on social networking site Facebook, police said today.

The FIR was registered against the person last night under IPC section 295A (deliberate and malicious acts, intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs) and relevant sections of the IT Act, an official at Mulund Police Station told PTI.

After spotting the Facebook posts which contained the alleged derogatory references, Shiv Sena activist Avinash Bagal complained at the police station yesterday. According to sources, Cyber Cell of the Mumbai police had, with the help of Facebook administration, blocked one account which contained objectionable pictures last night.

However, a second Facebook account had been created by an unidentified person which was also blocked by police with the help of social networking site.

Shiv Sainiks staged protests in Pune and its surrounding localities last night and this morning and pelted stones at buses irked over the Facebook posts. About eight buses were damaged in the incidents as the Sena activists took to the streets.

In 2012, two girls were arrested over a controversial Facebook post on late Bal Thackeray.

Chaos, stone pelting and rasta roko: Shiv Sainiks take to streets in Pune over controversial Facebook post; FIR lodged | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis (http://www.dnaindia.com/pune/report-chaos-stone-pelting-and-rasta-roko-shiv-sainiks-take-to-the-streets-in-pune-1992701)



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Double Edge
02 Jun 14,, 09:55
Looks like the play for the Maha upcoming assembly elections has begun. SS did not get any important portfolios out of the general elections. Must build political capital in other ways.

sated buddha
02 Jun 14,, 10:07
As I said in the past, the Marathas and Bahmans do not have time for each other. Never have.

Its a Saffron alliance of convenience at best. One Raj has always been extremely (and openly) disdainful of.

Double Edge
02 Jun 14,, 10:13
As I said in the past, the Marathas and Bahmans do not have time for each other. Never have.

Its a Saffron alliance of convenience at best. One Raj has always been extremely (and openly) disdainful of.
Can you give me some more sources on that underlined bit.

sated buddha
02 Jun 14,, 10:15
Can you give me some more sources on that underlined bit.

How about 500 years of my family tree?

But no, seriously, Google around. Its open knowledge even beyond Maharashtrian boundaries and circles. And its seen comonly in other Kshatriya Brahmin milieus as well. The age old friction between the warrior and the intellectual.

I am an anomaly, though a growing one of the current generation in power (Raj, Uddhav age group), that has draws to both sides. Viz the RSS and BJP on one side and the Shiv Sena and MNS on the other.

Many of our elders have never been able to make the jump from regional to national. Which is probably why we have never pulled our due weight at national level. And kept being happy with Maharashtrian intrigue. One of the downsides of belonging to a Maha Rashtra (Great Nation) I guess.

Comfortably sated.

Or "sub nationalism/istic" as Rahul Kanwal coined today morning/last night while comparing Telangana's neo politics to Maharashtra's Shiv Sena / MNS.

Raj is more militant, like his uncle. Uddhav is strong in a silent accomodating way. But he has shown the steel in his spine.

sated buddha
02 Jun 14,, 10:45
deleted OT

Double Edge
02 Jun 14,, 12:23
Raj is more militant, like his uncle. Uddhav is strong in a silent accomodating way. But he has shown the steel in his spine.
Raj did not fare too well in these elections which i found curious. Somehow i always felt this love child would find his destiny and supplant Uddhav as the rightful heir. Not yet. There is always later in the year. I think you guys are going to see more bouts of this goondaism. Shows of strength to hold on to core supporters.

lemontree
02 Jun 14,, 12:34
So it put to bed to the assertion that India just woke up as North Korea, insinuating that somehow under Modi, India is turning into N. Korea or somewhat. Guess what? India has already turned into a North Korea state for the last 10 years.
So where are the cases of people being hounded by the previous govt?...rioting and their properties destroyed.
We just have another example of the "tolerance" of the victors....burning and destroying public and private property.

We face these nutcases on a daily basis so spare me the rhetoric of the past 10 years.

sated buddha
02 Jun 14,, 12:46
love child

Love child? I did not get what you meant by this. Could you elaborate please?

I understand love child to mean something, and I do not see how it fits here, so asking.

sated buddha
02 Jun 14,, 12:47
We face these nutcases on a daily basis so spare me the rhetoric of the past 10 years.

How were things in Mumbai? Our company buses got smashed. Lots of mess to clean up today morning start of the week. Nothing insurance wouldn't cover of course.

antimony
02 Jun 14,, 15:21
Rapid dogs at it again. Alongwith a complicit government machinery. I can understand outrage at the imagines slight of ones hero, however misplaced that feecton might be. But what justifies harming innocent. And the even more disgusting thing? FIRs have been lodged for the Facebook posts but not for the rioting or the instigators. The ultimate mob rule

Sated Buddha,

Go on, tell me in your short pithy sentences how it was actually the fault of those people in the busses and shops

Double Edge
02 Jun 14,, 15:25
So it put to bed to the assertion that India just woke up as North Korea, insinuating that somehow under Modi, India is turning into N. Korea or somewhat. Guess what? India has already turned into a North Korea state for the last 10 years.
if you look at continuing developments, what was intially perceived as affronts on liberties, now looks as opening moves in a larger turf battle.

Indiscretions on FB are just a pretext to stage power plays. SS (as well as rivals) will jostle for better positions over the next few months.


As I said in the past, the Marathas and Bahmans do not have time for each other. Never have.

Its a Saffron alliance of convenience at best. One Raj has always been extremely (and openly) disdainful of.
How convenient for the NCP. Two groups you would think have politics in common but divided by ideology and past baggage. BJP can make advances and win landslides in other states but there are natural barriers in place to prevent them ever coming to power in their own state.

BJP vs SS vS MNS vs NCP is a four cornered fight.


Love child? I did not get what you meant by this. Could you elaborate please?

I understand love child to mean something, and I do not see how it fits here, so asking.
Raj is the illegitimate son of bal thackeray is what i was given to believe. Illegitimate means could not be allowed to succeed him.

lemontree
03 Jun 14,, 07:30
How were things in Mumbai? Our company buses got smashed. Lots of mess to clean up today morning start of the week. Nothing insurance wouldn't cover of course.

The mess was in Pune, Kolhapur, Sholapur, Satara and the Mumbai-Pune expressway. Mumbai remained quiet but there seemed to be unusual police deployment near places religious places of worship (near temples and churches).

sated buddha
03 Jun 14,, 07:38
The mess was in Pune, Kolhapur, Sholapur, Satara and the Mumbai-Pune expressway. Mumbai remained quiet but there seemed to be unusual police deployment near places religious places of worship (near temples and churches).

Heard a mosque got attacked in Kondhwa last night. Hope people cool down. And act more responsible. Clearly someone is trying to stir shit up.

Now I hope people understand what I meant about being careful online.

We are India. The fire is barely concealed. Don't poke around as if you are sitting in Scandinavia smoking pot at a street side cafe. Spouting gibberish about freedom and liberty.

lemontree
03 Jun 14,, 07:49
SB, this appears self kindled, because all SS resources were mobilised in multiple cities in quick time. Let us see what the cyber crime cell find out. They are pretty good in their work.

sated buddha
03 Jun 14,, 07:57
SB, this appears self kindled, because all SS resources were mobilised in multiple cities in quick time. Let us see what the cyber crime cell find out. They are pretty good in their work.

Your views on Munde .... ?

lemontree
03 Jun 14,, 08:13
Your views on Munde .... ?

The accident is very fishy mate

sated buddha
03 Jun 14,, 08:14
The accident is very fishy mate

Self censored .....

Double Edge
03 Jun 14,, 10:04
Now I hope people understand what I meant about being careful online.
Suspect they are being selective with who they go after.


We are India. The fire is barely concealed. Don't poke around as if you are sitting in Scandinavia smoking pot at a street side cafe. Spouting gibberish about freedom and liberty.
Would they go after someone that lived in Delhi, Assam or Kerela ?

But if they live in Maha and there is a show to be staged then yes.

Cherry picking :tongue:

sated buddha
03 Jun 14,, 10:08
Suspect they are being selective with who they go after.

Would they go after someone that did that but lived in Delhi, Assam or Kerela ?

But if they live in Maha and there is a show to be staged then yes.

The Shiv Sainiks have never been afraid of being seen or heard in the rest of the country as well when the need arose. This is their country. A wrong is a wrong wherever it happens.

This is them on Ram Navami in New Delhi ......

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This is them in Batala, Punjab ......

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This is them in Kathmandu, Nepal .....

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In Ludhiana .....

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In Dehradun .....

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There are tons more, but you get the idea ......

sated buddha
03 Jun 14,, 13:22
UK police action over “liking” a Facebook post could signal a dangerous prosecution trend » The Privacy Surgeon (http://www.privacysurgeon.org/blog/incision/uk-police-action-over-liking-a-facebook-post-could-signal-a-dangerous-prosecution-trend/)

Similar article today in the Times about Indian authorities following the same and slapping sections on to offenders.

Good move I say. Like Baiting is a known technique of trolls. And is as inflammatory as the actual content, because what you are essentially doing is saying "Yeah, good for you. I agree."

Thailand, Phillippines too from the look of it.

Meanwhile .....

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Tech-experts-hunt-author-of-FB-post-which-led-to-violence-across-state/articleshow/35934673.cms

Oracle
03 Jun 14,, 13:32
What about people who openly use threats on boards and support known hooligans? They need to be sent to jail without a trial, right?

sated buddha
03 Jun 14,, 13:37
What about people who openly use threats on boards and support known hooligans? They need to be sent to jail without a trial, right?

I believe we all have a social responsibility. I believe what we type online has far reaching consequences. And a word is like an arrow. Once released, you have no control over it. We need to be careful and temperate in our speech. Because what we say and write can have far reaching consequences. Which ultimately we are responsible for. I never take forums lightly. Anonymous fun with no strings attached. I'd advise you strongly to do the same. Especially about posting under the influence. You may be drunk or stoned when you make a post. And sober up the next day.

But the post remains there. And no one who reads it later sees a small disclaimer alongside : "Please don't mind. I was drunk while typing this."

My philosophy on posting online is simple. Be true to yourself and do not pretend and try to be that which you are not. And do not say something to someone which you would be embarassed to read later should you and that person ever really get to know each other in real life.

Hope that clarifies.

Double Edge
03 Jun 14,, 16:04
UK police action over “liking” a Facebook post could signal a dangerous prosecution trend » The Privacy Surgeon (http://www.privacysurgeon.org/blog/incision/uk-police-action-over-liking-a-facebook-post-could-signal-a-dangerous-prosecution-trend/)
From here (http://birchington.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/playing-with-fire.html) blog post dated may 16 2014 or 3 months after your article appeared.

Well, what happened ?


Last week and after four months of pressing for information against a stalled bureaucracy and helped by my Member of Parliament, Sir Roger Gale, the police finally dropped the criminal conspiracy and harassment complaint against me, for lack of evidence. This, without so much as an apology for the time and costs involved in pursuing it.

#1 reason why a case fails


So, it appears, that after many months of inquiry, Kent Police have concluded, that anonymous comments on my weblog are, as I told them on the day of interview, a matter for civil law and not criminal law. That ‘Liking’ a comment on Facebook, is not a criminal offence and, I assume, that challenging the position and style of an artists’ impression of a giant Tesco, development, placed adjacent to Dreamland, is truly what the former mayor of Margate said it is, at best an exaggeration and at worst a misrepresentation of the facts.

:Dancing-Banana:




Similar article today in the Times about Indian authorities following the same and slapping sections on to offenders.

Good move I say. Like Baiting is a known technique of trolls. And is as inflammatory as the actual content, because what you are essentially doing is saying "Yeah, good for you. I agree."
Don't you get it yet..


Thailand, Phillippines too from the look of it.

Meanwhile .....

Tech experts hunt author of FB post which led to violence across state - Mumbai Mirror (http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Tech-experts-hunt-author-of-FB-post-which-led-to-violence-across-state/articleshow/35934673.cms)
Naturally it was an FB post that led to violence.

I mean it just happens like faces that launch a thousand ships.

antimony
03 Jun 14,, 17:23
I believe we all have a social responsibility. I believe what we type online has far reaching consequences. And a word is like an arrow. Once released, you have no control over it. We need to be careful and temperate in our speech. Because what we say and write can have far reaching consequences. Which ultimately we are responsible for. I never take forums lightly. Anonymous fun with no strings attached. I'd advise you strongly to do the same. Especially about posting under the influence. You may be drunk or stoned when you make a post. And sober up the next day.

But the post remains there. And no one who reads it later sees a small disclaimer alongside : "Please don't mind. I was drunk while typing this."

My philosophy on posting online is simple. Be true to yourself and do not pretend and try to be that which you are not. And do not say something to someone which you would be embarassed to read later should you and that person ever really get to know each other in real life.

Hope that clarifies.

What did those people in the bus/ shops do? what social responsibility norms did they flout. Your defense of a pack of rabid dogs, each of whom would run with his tail behind his legs if cornered alone, is disgusting.

Your SS types are NOT India, they are a disease in our society.

Oracle
03 Jun 14,, 20:10
I believe we all have a social responsibility. I believe what we type online has far reaching consequences. And a word is like an arrow. Once released, you have no control over it. We need to be careful and temperate in our speech. Because what we say and write can have far reaching consequences. Which ultimately we are responsible for. I never take forums lightly. Anonymous fun with no strings attached. I'd advise you strongly to do the same. Especially about posting under the influence. You may be drunk or stoned when you make a post. And sober up the next day.

But the post remains there. And no one who reads it later sees a small disclaimer alongside : "Please don't mind. I was drunk while typing this."

So people having a different view should be jailed? As DE said, the law should only be used for incitement. Time for you to walk the talk, and lessen the threats you dish out to others here. Also, time to consume less of those battery acids while you post while insulting and threatening veterans like LT through a keyboard.


My philosophy on posting online is simple. Be true to yourself and do not pretend and try to be that which you are not. And do not say something to someone which you would be embarassed to read later should you and that person ever really get to know each other in real life.

Hope that clarifies.

Really? True to yourself? Biker gang? IT repute? Rings any bell?

lemontree
04 Jun 14,, 11:02
This is getting pathetic...
Techie Killed In Pune, Allegedly After Row Over 'Derogatory' Facebook Post | NDTV.com (http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/techie-killed-in-pune-allegedly-after-row-over-derogatory-facebook-post-535895?pfrom=home-lateststories)

Replicating the commonal lab in Maharashtra!

Is this what India voted for :slap:

sated buddha
04 Jun 14,, 11:06
Two techies have been killed in the past few days. Separate unconnected incidents. But neither was over this. I don't know which new techie this is. Or is someone playing mischief here and giving it a communal twist.

This is a law and order situation in the rampantly sprawling IT city of Hinjewadi where thugs are finding out of town techies easy pickings. Robbery being the main motive.

Oracle
04 Jun 14,, 17:23
Techie beaten to death in Pune, 7 men of Hindu outfit held (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Techie-beaten-to-death-in-Pune-7-men-of-Hindu-outfit-held/articleshow/36053467.cms)

PUNE: A 28-year-old software professional was bludgeoned to death allegedly by seven persons with suspected links to a Hindu outfit near here, police said on Wednesday.

The murder of Shaikh Mohasin Sadiq, who hailed from Solapur and was a resident of Hadapsar, on Monday night sparked tension in the area, they said.

The trigger for the attack was apparently uploading of derogatory pictures of warrior king Shivaji and late Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray on Facebook, which led to a protest bandh on Sunday.

Police have arrested seven persons in this regard under sections 302 (murder), 307 (attempt to murder) and 147 (rioting) of Indian Penal Code.

They are said to be linked to Hindu Rashtra Sena. Sadiq worked in the IT department of a textile firm in the city.

He was thrashed with sticks at Bankar Colony by the accused and succumbed to his injuries during treatment at a nearby hospital, police said.

Two other youths too had been attacked and injured in stone throwing at the same spot on the same night, according to police.

Police said the case was handed over to Crime Branch and they have appealed to citizens not to believe or spread rumours as the situation is peaceful.

Security has been beefed up in the area.

Oracle
04 Jun 14,, 17:52
Arnab on TimesNOW owing Pinky Anand, one of the 23 BJP spokespersons for the party. She is deflecting the questions of the death of Shaikh Mohasin Sadiq, who was beaten to death in Pune. Debate is about a book to be stalled releasing in India named 'Communalism and Sexual Violence: Ahmedabad since 1969' by Megha Kumar.

Why are contrarian voices being muzzled? We are in a majority, 80% of us are Hindus.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 06:31
Mohsin indeed was beaten to death, and singled out because of his apppearance.

RIP. My heart goes out to his parents and his family. And I condemn this deed in the strongest manner possible.

As I condemn those anonymous instigational mischief mongers who started this whole spiral of violence. Neither should be spared the full weight of the law. Because frankly I hold both responsible.

Once again this proves what I have been saying to the Ivory Tower residents here. This is India. This is not Scandinavia. Use your brains. Be responsible, be vigilant, clamp down if you see or know someone who's doing something you feel has the potential to hurt others. Do not be silent. Do not be apathetic. And do not let false loyalty come in the way of doing what is right.

antimony
05 Jun 14,, 08:17
Be responsible, be vigilant, clamp down if you see or know someone who's doing something you feel has the potential to hurt others. Do not be silent. Do not be apathetic. And do not let false loyalty come in the way of doing what is right.

Tell all of this to yourself when you justify the actions of SS goons. People who posted in Facebook had every right to their expression. If you do not like that, criticize them. what gives you the right to violence? what gives you the right to harm those who have nothing to d with these posts?

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 08:26
Tell all of this to yourself when you justify the actions of SS goons.

Can you point ot a single post of mine, where I have justified or condoned violence by any thugs/goons?

Violence is wrong. Taking law into your own hands is wrong.

But it is often situational. And more often than not theere is cause and effect. There is no right or wrong in the aftermath. Just the grim reality for those who suffer in the end for no fault of theirs.


People who posted in Facebook had every right to their expression.

No they had no right to do what they did. NONE!

What they did was inflammatory and irresponsible. And a young Indian lost his life as a result. Those anonymous posters on Facebook are as much to blame for Mohsin's death as are the youth of the Hindu Rashtra Sena who actually beat him up. And I hope BOTH feel the full weight of the law. I will accept nothing less as an Indian.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 08:39
Can you point ot a single post of mine, where I have justified or condoned violence by any thugs/goons?

There are a lot of your posts that glorify right wing extremists. One example, just go back to post # 143 of this very thread.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 08:41
The Shiv Sainiks have never been afraid of being seen or heard in the rest of the country as well when the need arose. This is their country. A wrong is a wrong wherever it happens.

This is them on Ram Navami in New Delhi ......

37049

This is them in Batala, Punjab ......

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This is them in Kathmandu, Nepal .....

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In Ludhiana .....

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In Dehradun .....

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There are tons more, but you get the idea ......

Quoted the glorification in bold & red. :mad:

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 08:48
There are a lot of your posts that glorify right wing extremists.

1) What are "right wing extremists" to you are patriots and sons of the soil to me.

2) Regardless, "glorifying" someone is not equal to condoning of violence, and definitely not lethal violence. You cannot and should not take law into your own hands.

But equally, there is cause and effect. You are being selectively myopic in pointing one out while justifying the other. If violence is unlawful, so is inflammation and instigation. Equally.


One example, just go back to post # 143 of this very thread.

This is what I said there, in response to DE wondering if the Shiv Sena would be so aggro and so brave out of their home turf (Maharashtra):

"The Shiv Sainiks have never been afraid of being seen or heard in the rest of the country as well when the need arose. This is their country. A wrong is a wrong wherever it happens."

Can you help me understand which part of this post you find objectionable or see as condoning of unlawful violence?

Do appreciate - the Right of Free Expression INCLUDES the Right of Free Protest.

And if you have the freedom to INCITE, then others have the freedom to get INCITED.

AND PLEASE DO NOT USE RED. OUT HERE IT IS RESERVED FOR THE MODS (AS IS GREEN), AND YOU ARE MOST DEFINITELY NOT ONE.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 09:09
1) What are "right wing extremists" to you are patriots and sons of the soil to me.

Not a patriot when they destroy public and private property and kill/harass innocents. Some definition of a patriot you got there. Only you.


2) Regardless, "glorifying" someone is not equal to condoning of violence, and definitely not lethal violence. You cannot and should not take law into your own hands.

Why glorify acts of violence in the first case, and then condone it? Aren't they in stark contrast?


But equally, there is cause and effect. You are being selectively myopic is pointing one out while justifying the other. If violence is unlawful, so is inflammation and instigation. Equally.

I have always defended free speech. I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Cause and effect are moot points where an argument lost, results in violence. If someone has made a remark (which to you is offensive), sign on and argue on why that remark is wrong. Back it up with data and sources. Killing people because someone doesn't like someone else's POV is criminal.


This is what I said there, in response to DE wondering if the Shiv Sena would be so aggro and so brave out of their home turf (Maharashtra):

"The Shiv Sainiks have never been afraid of being seen or heard in the rest of the country as well when the need arose. This is their country. A wrong is a wrong wherever it happens."

Can you help me understand which part of this post you find objectionable or see as condoning of unlawful violence?

The mindless streaks of violence that you glorified by posting those pictures.


Do appreciate - the Right of Free Expression INCLUDES the Right of Free Protest.

The right to free protest does not include vandalizing property and killing people.


And if you have the freedom to INCITE, then others have the freedom to get INCITED.

How do you define incitement? And in what legal position are you to even define it?

And if that was indeed an incitement, then there are laws to deal with it. Not hooligans.


AND PLEASE DO NOT USE RED. OUT HERE IT IS RESERVED FOR THE MODS (AS IS GREEN), AND YOU ARE MOST DEFINITELY NOT ONE.

The red part was to showcase your posts glorifying extremists. Isn't BOLD and CAPS too being reserved for the Mods? Preach much?

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 10:10
Not a patriot when they destroy public and private property and kill/harass innocents. Some definition of a patriot you got there. Only you.

When have you seen me equating destruction of public/private property and/or killing/harassing innocents as patriotism? Please point out specifics here. I find you once again jumping off of the deep end with accusations flying loose nad fast, with very little if at all anything to back them up. Let's talk specifics. I have the time and the inclination to debate with you today. Seeing as you seem unusually sober and coherent. Even uncharacteristically civil.


Why glorify acts of violence in the first case, and then condone it? Aren't they in stark contrast?

Again, who is "glorifying" violence. Where have you seen me either glorifying or condoning the same? Can you point out a specific example please? I do not seem to see any, not can recollect if I have ever done so.


I have always defended free speech. I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Good. Then you should not have Shiv Sainiks and other "right wing extremists" exerting their right to the same.


Cause and effect are moot points where an argument lost, results in violence. If someone has made a remark (which to you is offensive), sign on and argue on why that remark is wrong. Back it up with data and sources. Killing people because someone doesn't like someone else's POV is criminal.

I find this rich. You defend the right to be outright inflammatory, derogatory, and stomp willy nilly over the sensibilities of your fellow citizens, crossing brazenly and without care of consequence or rapercussion well known and historically established red lines of decency and decorum and tolerance, social, cultural, religious, historical.

Yet you somehow wish to deny another group of your own felow citizens their own right to feel offended?

Yes, getting offended, getting instigated, getting incited, falling prey to religious hate messages and derogatory portrayals of whom you hold dear, hold high, does not or should not give you the right to inflict bodily harm on another in an ideal world.

Well my friend, you want an ideal world, go to Scandinavia. Smoke pot and enjoy the company of long legged blondes in lovely bracing cold weather and salubrious environs.

THIS IS INDIA.


The mindless streaks of violence that you glorified by posting those pictures.

I might be mistaken so am open to correction, yours or otherwise. What "mindless streak of violence" did you detect in the photos I posted? All I see are citizens exercising their right to freedom of expression and protest.

Do let me know where exactly the violence can be seen. I'm missing it. Might need a change of prescription for my glasses.


The right to free protest does not include vandalizing property and killing people.

I agree. That is wrong and should be (and is) rightfully clamped down on and punished. As should those who did the instigation and incitement. Cause and effect. You need a bamboo to make a flute. If the bamboo isn't there, you wouldn't have a flute to play.


How do you define incitement? And in what legal position are you to even define it?

The law is clear. And is there for you to read and digest. I nor you are legal experts here. But we have courts, and we have the law makers, and we have the police. They all do their job, have done their job. Sometimes they do not, sometimes they fail, sometimes they make mistakes and are wrong. But more often than not what they do does work, and peace is maintained in a highly diverse and sensitive society such as ours.

Try your Scandinavian tactics here and you will have a country and a people in flames within 6 months. Thanks but no thanks. We are ok as we are.


And if that was indeed an incitement, then there are laws to deal with it. Not hooligans.

See above. Don't give hooliganism free fertile soil and oxygen and water. Be responsible. Be discreet and temperate. Be cognizant of what you say and where you say it.

In short, be INDIAN.


The red part was to showcase your posts glorifying extremists. Isn't BOLD and CAPS too being reserved for the Mods? Preach much?

Red and Green out here are off limits to mere mortals. Bolds and Caps and Underlining means I'm shouting to get your attention to point out basics. It did its job.

Double Edge
05 Jun 14,, 10:24
Do appreciate - the Right of Free Expression INCLUDES the Right of Free Protest.
So let them protest, there are rules for protesting in the country. Does not include destruction of public property.


And if you have the freedom to INCITE, then others have the freedom to get INCITED.
You will have to prove what was said amounts to incitement.

There is no freedom to incite, not even in the US. Have already clearly explained to you the distinction between incitement & criticism which these people construe as offense/disrespect.

For now these groups use fear to gain the upper hand. They know they have no chance against an asymmetric opponent. None whatsoever. Very easy to post things online. Internet penetration is increasing year on year.

How do you think it will look like ten years from now. They can't go after everyone that trashes them, they have to be selective and make examples for most effect.

Instead what you should be saying is these groups have no right to say anything either because what they believe in causes offense to others. So they resort to muscle power to even the balance.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 10:26
When have you seen me equating destruction of public/private property and/or killing/harassing innocents as patriotism? Please point out specifics here. I find you once again jumping off of the deep end with accusations flying loose nad fast, with very little if at all anything to back them up. Let's talk specifics. I have the time and the inclination to debate with you today. Seeing as you seem unusually sober and coherent. Even uncharacteristically civil.

Again, who is "glorifying" violence. Where have you seen me either glorifying or condoning the same? Can you point out a specific example please? I do not seem to see any, not can recollect if I have ever done so.

Good. Then you should not have Shiv Sainiks and other "right wing extremists" exerting their right to the same.

I find this rich. You defend the right to be outright inflammatory, derogatory, and stomp willy nilly over the sensibilities of your fellow citizens, crossing brazenly and without care of consequence or rapercussion well known and historically established red lines of decency and decorum and tolerance, social, cultural, religious, historical.

Yet you somehow wish to deny another group of your own felow citizens their own right to feel offended?

Yes, getting offended, getting instigated, getting incited, falling prey to religious hate messages and derogatory portrayals of whom you hold dear, hold high, does not or should not give you the right to inflict bodily harm on another in an ideal world.

Well my friend, you want an ideal world, go to Scandinavia. Smoke pot and enjoy the company of long legged blondes in lovely bracing cold weather and salubrious environs.

THIS IS INDIA.

I might be mistaken so am open to correction, yours or otherwise. What "mindless streak of violence" did you detect in the photos I posted? All I see are citizens exercising their right to freedom of expression and protest.

Do let me know where exactly the violence can be seen. I'm missing it. Might need a change of prescription for my glasses.

I agree. That is wrong and should be (and is) rightfully clamped down on and punished. As should those who did the instigation and incitement. Cause and effect. You need a bamboo to make a flute. If the bamboo isn't there, you wouldn't have a flute to play.

The law is clear. And is there for you to read and digest. I nor you are legal experts here. But we have courts, and we have the law makers, and we have the police. They all do their job, have done their job. Sometimes they do not, sometimes they fail, sometimes they make mistakes and are wrong. But more often than not what they do does work, and peace is maintained in a highly diverse and sensitive society such as ours.

Try your Scandinavian tactics here and you will have a country and a people in flames within 6 months. Thanks but no thanks. We are ok as we are.

See above. Don't give hooliganism free fertile soil and oxygen and water. Be responsible. Be discreet and temperate. Be cognizant of what you say and where you say it.

In short, be INDIAN.


Red and Green out here are off limits to mere mortals. Bolds and Caps and Underlining means I'm shouting to get your attention to point out basics. It did its job.

There are many actually, some being post # 17,20,24,31,33. Some more too. These posts summarize very well what you want to say, preach and glorify. There are even more across threads, which frankly I'm not bothered to dig. Those should answer your questions.


I have the time and the inclination to debate with you today.

What? No beedi manufacturing today? Holiday? :eek: Sorry, I'm busy. Later.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 10:34
So let them protest, there are rules for protesting in the country. Does not include destruction of public property.

Agreed. Nor (as in our company's case recently) does it include right of destruction of private property either.

Redressal and damages needs to be recovered from both parties. The ones inciting, and the ones getting incited. There is no reason why common people should suffer. Why our tax money should get wasted. Why old parents should lose their young son and a family its only earning member. Go after both. And drag them to justice. make an example of them.


You will have to prove what was said amounts to incitement.

There is no freedom to incite, not even in the US.

I (nor you nor Oracle nor anyone else) will have to prove nothing. The police can act and do act and will act. The law is clear. Don't like it? Change it. But till you do, its there and its what will drive the actions of the state machinery.

What we need to figure out instead is how to make sure that people behave online as they do in real life.

In real life, not even an Owaisi or a Togadia can do or will do what these turds did from behind the cloak of their laptop screens.

That is what we need to address. Too many loose cannons. And on the flip side, enough stockpiled gunpowder lying around. The matches and tinder we have ridden our society off through decades of bloodshed and killing, have now found safe refuge in cyber space.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 10:38
What? No beedi manufacturing today? Holiday? :eek: Sorry, I'm busy. Later.

My virgins are busy rolling and tucking while we debate.

Don't run away with your caudal appendage tucked between your extremities just yet. I will answer each of the following


post # 17,20,24,31,33.

But first you need to pint out exactly what you found wrong in each and why.

No red this time. A simple bolding or underlining should suffice. Red coming from you hurts my sensibilities. It incites me.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 10:50
But first you need to pint out exactly what you found wrong in each and why.

No red this time. A simple bolding or underlining should suffice. Red coming from you hurts my sensibilities. It incites me.

Those posts appease, glorify and support a very rabid ideology of right wing fundamentalists. Those posts have already been trashed by many posters, line by line. You need to go and read them again, and read the rebuttals too. Not surprising, that only your views are of the other side of the fence.

Double Edge
05 Jun 14,, 10:53
SB, read #162 again.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 11:05
Those posts appease, glorify and support a very rabid ideology of right wing fundamentalists. Those posts have already been trashed by many posters, line by line. You need to go and read them again, and read the rebuttals too. Not surprising, that only your views are of the other side of the fence.

Aaaaah so no specifics. Simply the same old lame bombast and attempting to hide behind others and shoot off their shoulders.

If there is one thing you would have learned by now, or should have, its that I am ALWAYS politically correct, ALWAYS temperate of speech, and I will NEVER leave a sensible opposing post go unanswered and unrebutted.

So rather than me make the effort all over again, simply go back and read what I have to say for each.

Or

Simply keep carping.

Either way, its fine. I know when to respond to you and when to sidestep as I would anything else in real life that is not particularly appealing, nor evocative of significant interest.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 11:25
Aaaaah so no specifics. Simply the same old lame bombast and attempting to hide behind others and shoot off their shoulders.

If there is one thing you would have learned by now, or should have, its that I am ALWAYS politically correct, ALWAYS temperate of speech, and I will NEVER leave a sensible opposing post go unanswered and unrebutted.

So rather than me make the effort all over again, simply go back and read what I have to say for each.

Or

Simply keep carping.

Either way, its fine. I know when to respond to you and when to sidestep as I would anything else in real life that is not particularly appealing, nor evocative of significant interest.

Yeow! Told ya, I'm a little busy, but you won't go read but fly your baseless logic as always. Some snippets below.


The girls were stupid. Not the stupidness of youth, but the stupidness of the misplaced arrogance of minority entitlement syndrome.

You are from Mumbai. You know the reality. Balasaheb was God for a huge majority of Mumbaikars. He was the reigning ruler of Mumbai. When a King dies, the people mourn. In such a charged environment if two stupid girls mouth off, the ramifications are not something you and I are unaware of.


A rap on the knuckles is a whole lot better than what could have, might have happened.


We are both citizens. LT too. Your rights extend up to and only where they start encroaching on mine. Expect pushback. Hard, if need be.

Learn how to behave. Or expect to be taught. This is real life. Not writers club or bloggers anonymous here.


Enough said.

The man lived and went like the King he was.

Haters can keep hating and cry their eyes out for all I care frankly. :)


India and America are two different countries. Differnt people. Different societies. Different histories.

While there might be some things we could and should learn, attempt to emulate and internalize from the Americans, as there would be some others they could and probaby would take from us, I am not sure that this is one of them.

We have made our society cohese and work and grow based on tenets of mutual respect and tolerance.

That goes out of the window when you start mouthing off and hurt others. Its simple. There are red lines. Do not cross them. And the fact that they are red lines is because they have historically been colored by real blood.

Learn. Adapt. Coexist.

Or provoke. And reap the wind.

These posts and many others I have not quoted provide what is essentially a regressive, confrontational, and threat laden narrative of 'my way or the highway'. They reek of negative self-esteem, one that is scared to actually debate out an issue, but have no qualms in beating people to death and vandalizing public property.

Now some wise words from the Colonel.


Funny how a minority like LT who achieved battle honours defending the rights of India while SB cowards behind the rights of the majority.

Frankly SB, I think you know that your right wing theories won't fly in here (Indians won't last 1 week in here 'analogy'), so you try to mask your threats and insults. We can see through.

Doktor
05 Jun 14,, 11:32
Indians won't last 1 week in here 'analogy'

Where this came from? I never witnessed somebody doing a poll here, but I believe the Indians are second largest group here. Maybe even the largest ;)

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 11:33
Indians won't last 1 week in here 'analogy'

Where this came from? I never witnessed somebody doing a poll here, but I believe the Indians are second largest group here. Maybe even the largest ;)

You have not done your homework? That analogy came from the highly enlightened Mr. SB. :)

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 11:48
Have already clearly explained to you the distinction between incitement & criticism which these people construe as offense/disrespect.

You think, honestly, that the recent Facbook posts were "criticism"?

From Wiki:

Under Indian law, the freedom of speech and of the press do not confer an absolute right to express one's thoughts freely.Clause (2) of Article 19 of the Indian constitution enables the legislature to impose certain restrictions on free speech under following heads:
I. security of the State,
II. friendly relations with foreign States,
III. public order,
IV. decency and morality,
V. contempt of court,
VI. defamation,
VII. incitement to an offence, and
VIII. sovereignty and integrity of India.

Incitement to an offence: This ground was also added by the Constitution (First Amendment) Act, 1951. The Constitution also prohibits a person from making any statement that incites people to commit offence.

Now the other relevant Sections under the IPC .....

1) s 153A IPC makes it an offence to spread communal hate (an offence to promote enmity between groups "on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste, or community or any other ground whatsoever").

The section also prohibits:
• the promotion of ‘disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill-will’ between different communities through ‘words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise’ (section 153A(1)(a));
• acts which are ‘prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony’ between communities, or which ‘disturb or [are] likely to disturb the public tranquility’ (section 153A(1)(b)).

2) s 295A IPC prohibits ‘deliberate and malicious acts, intended to outrage religious feelings or any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs’;

3) s 298 IPC prohibits ‘uttering words, etc, with deliberate intent to wound religious feelings'

4) s.505(1) IPC prohibits ‘statements conducive to public mischief’

5) s.505(2) IPC prohibits ‘statements creating or promoting enmity, hatred or ill-will between classes’.

6) Under s 66A of the Information Technology Act 2000, publication of material which ‘is grossly offensive or has menacing character’, or which is broadcast, despite being known to be false, for the purpose of ‘causing annoyance, inconvenience, danger, obstruction, insult, injury, criminal intimidation, enmity, hatred or ill will’, is prohibited.

The Information Technology (Intermediaries Guidelines) Rules 2011, functioning in addition to the Act, further expand the capacity of the government of India to prohibit ‘hate speech’. Significantly, unlike prior ‘hate speech’ provisions, they explicitly prohibit the ‘host[ing], display, upload[ing], modif[ication], publi[cation], trans[mission], updat[ing], or shar[ing]’ of any information which, as per clause 3(2)(b) of the Rules, is ‘blasphemous’

In addition, clause 3(2)(b) of the Rules prohibit the dissemination of material which is ‘racially [or] racially objectionable’, or ‘otherwise unlawful in any manner whatsoever’, while clause 3(2)(i) prohibits material which ‘threatens the unity, integrity, defence, security or sovereignty of India, friendly relations with foreign states, or public order or causes incitement to the commission of any cognisable offence or is insulting to any other nation.’

8) Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967 bans any organisation which violates s 153A, among other such provisions.

(...... hence the very prompt action by Facebook, Google, Yahoo, etc. in the past as well as now)


For now these groups use fear to gain the upper hand. They know they have no chance against an asymmetric opponent. None whatsoever. Very easy to post things online. Internet penetration is increasing year on year.

How do you think it will look like ten years from now. They can't go after everyone that trashes them, they have to be selective and make examples for most effect.

Instead what you should be saying is these groups have no right to say anything either because what they believe in causes offense to others. So they resort to muscle power to even the balance.

All the more reason for each group, be it linguistic, regional, communal, or anything else, to police itself and ensure that moronic mavericks within do not mouth off and jeopardise by their anonymous actions the larger whole which gets tarnished and painted with the same brush.

The muscle power you speak off only comes to the fore when things go beyond a limit. Otherwise you know and I know and we all know that the same muscle power were it to have been rampantly used and abused would have caused social and communal anarchy in our country by now.

The fact remains that Indians as a whole are extremely clued into what causes offense and what is okay. They have learned to coexist over generations. When lines have been crossed, violence and blood letting that results, further reinforces established red lines and indicates new ones. Its a dynamic process. Its not perfect. But it works for us.

And I would venture to say that there is NO other country which is even remotely close to being as diverse as us and still living together largely peacefully.

Show me one other nation on earth that has 1 billion belonging to one faith and nearly 200 million belonging to another and still coexisting and thriving.

So don't buck what we have achieved and what we are trying to achieve. The Indian method works.

The Scandinavian one will incinerate us.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 12:12
I never witnessed somebody doing a poll here

You do not need to do a poll here.

You need instead to look back to the Indians who were here.

We are 1.25 billion otherwise. About 400 million of us English proficient. A lot more with Internet. Sure we will be one of the biggest groups here and elsewhere. But what does that really say?

Doktor
05 Jun 14,, 12:14
You do not need to do a poll here.

You need instead to look back to the Indians who were here.

I witnessed many of them and the reason for the ban. I am only sorry for the good Brig Ray.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 12:23
I witnessed many of them and the reason for the ban. I am only sorry for the good Brig Ray.

That's ok, but really besides the point I was making now (and then) isn't it?

Just to jog your memory, I actually dug out my post from that now-sadly-closed mega thread ......

"Let me clarify what I wrote in plain English. Plain to me that is. Maybe I need a refresher Rapidex.

I asked Doktor not to base his judgments about India and Indians and the prevailing mood on the ground here and the very reality of our country based on feeds from Western media, the Internet, and the select group of Indians he would come into contact with on the Net (either here or elsewhere) because this select group of Indians would demographically not represent even 5% of the total population of India.

If you split that further ideologically, communally, politically, you see the same microsm just here on WAB getting split even further. So its fair to say that what Doktor or any of the other Western WABbers see here on WAB is not really representative of the the large majority of our country.

Simply put, Oracle, the large majority of our country would not last a week on WAB, based on what I have observed in my 6 months here. So in a way its an exclusive club, and like an exclusive club it has entry barriers in place, and once through those, it has a screening process that is ongoing. Not everyone will survive. Those that do either belong to a certain world view, or are more seasoned and astute in their interactions.

Hope that clarifies."

Hope that clarifies further .....

lemontree
05 Jun 14,, 12:25
1) What are "right wing extremists" to you are patriots and sons of the soil to me.
But when these men resort to terrorising own citiziens, they become terrorists, i.e internal enemies of the state.


Do appreciate - the Right of Free Expression INCLUDES the Right of Free Protest.
The right to protest is not the right to destroy private and government property.


And if you have the freedom to INCITE, then others have the freedom to get INCITED.
No one has the freedom to incite - you know that is a criminal offence. So if something is offensive, use the provisions in law to get after them.

Killing someone over FB posts is madness.

The whole issue is about polarisation and the culprits are the political parties that were voted to power.

Doktor
05 Jun 14,, 12:30
That's ok, but really besides the point I was making now (and then) isn't it?

I don't get what your point was. If it was that Indians don't live here because they are Indians, it's a faulty premise. They don't last long if they spam, troll, offend... you know the regular stuff most forums ban for.

Going even further, I dare you to do a statistics and see how many Indians were banned wrt let's say Pakistanis or Americans. Tho, I never been or will be part of the mods around here, I can tell you they are very cozy and ban as last resort, but not based on the country of origin.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 12:38
But when these men resort to terrorising own citiziens, they become terrorists, i.e internal enemies of the state.

There is a difference between a terrorist and an angry incited mob. You do seem to favor the former - which implies cold calculations and pre-determined actions over spontaneous inflammations.

Thankfully the law and internal law and order apparatus does not share your views.


The right to protest is not the right to destroy private and government property.

I agree. It is deplorable. As are the actions of those which causes such violence. Both are equally to blame and need to be clamped down on firmly.


No one has the freedom to incite - you know that is a criminal offence. So if something is offensive, use the provisions in law to get after them.

The required steps were taken legally. Sections slapped. The inflammatory posts removed. Users blocked.

Then they resurfaced elsewhere, worse than before. That's when all hell broke lose and the police was helpless.


Killing someone over FB posts is madness.

Absolutely. It is criminal. And my heart goes out to Mohsin's mom and dad. I have said as much in my earlier post to make clear my stand once I came to know that this was not a robery related techie death but a communal lynching.


The whole issue is about polarisation and the culprits are the political parties that were voted to power.

How can you say that? Did the political parties make the Facebook posts?

Doktor
05 Jun 14,, 13:32
SB's logic...

I talk, he get offended, he slaps my face, we share the guilt.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 14:05
SB's logic...

I talk, he get offended, he slaps my face, we share the guilt.

Doktor's logic...

I inflame, others get inflamed, some get hurt as a result, some even killed, but I cannot be held responsible because I was only exercising my rights.

Blame the finger that pressed the trigger.

Not the thumb that cocked the gun.

Officer of Engineers
05 Jun 14,, 14:26
The Dictatorship of the Majority.

But the thing is, soldiers like Captain Lemontree and Colonel DCL are individuals. They are putting their lives as well as their family's future on the line. They must, as we all did, believe in the dream of home. They must believe that this is the place they want their children to grow up safe and sound.

This dictatorship of the majority is an insult even when it's benign ... and it's nowhere close to being benign.

Officer of Engineers
05 Jun 14,, 14:45
Doktor's logic...

I inflame, others get inflamed, some get hurt as a result, some even killed, but I cannot be held responsible because I was only exercising my rights.

Blame the finger that pressed the trigger.

Not the thumb that cocked the gun.I just viewed this post because I want to see a response to Dok. What a fucking load of crock. The thumb that cocked the gun and the finger that squeezed (THAT'S SQUEEZED, NOT PULLED) the trigger belong to the same fucking thug.

Speech is protected by law. Even Indian law. Murder is not. So, blame the victim.

What a load of fucking crock.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 14:55
I just viewed this post because I want to see a response to Dok. What a fucking load of crock. The thumb that cocked the gun and the finger that squeezed (THAT'S SQUEEZED, NOT PULLED) the trigger belong to the same fucking thug.

Speech is protected by law. Even Indian law. Murder is not. So, blame the victim.

What a load of fucking crock.

Quoting the Colonel because my post was quoted. And I must therefore clarify.

Nobody is blaming the victim here. The blame lies equally and squarely on the shoulders of the faceless goons who set the spiral of violence in motion.

Which led to the death of an innocent.

This does not absolve the guys who beat up the innocent. That was a crime. But that was squeezing the trigger of a cocked gun.

What was an equal crime was the inflammatory crap on Facebook that started it all. The cocking of the (loaded) gun. By a different thumb. A thumb/s the police and IT cell are looking for even as we speak. A thumb which WILL be caught. And hopefully feel the full weight of law.

As an Indian, I would expect nothing less.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 15:00
And India has always been CONSISTENT on clamping down on stuff that can cause communal or social tension and unrest and violence and people potentially getting hurt or even killed.

We do it fairly and without bias across the board. For stuff that offends or has the potential to offend ANY section of our society.

There is no dictatorship of the majority here. Never has been, and never will be.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 15:03
That guy, Shaiskh Mohsin did not even post the remark in FB for which he got beaten to death. That was no stupid cause and effect, SB. What was, was a pre-mediated, cold blooded killing of an innocent guy from another community. The poor guy was cornered and hammered. Are you playing blind or just trolling?

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 15:06
That guy, Shaiskh Mohsin did not even post the remark in FB for which he got beaten to death. That was no stupid cause and effect, SB. What was, was a pre-mediated, cold blooded killing of an innocent guy from another community. The poor guy was cornered and hammered. Are you playing blind or just trolling?

What part of the killing of an innocent being a crime and deplorable did you fail to comprehend?

Are you at it again? Its barely 7:30 ....

Doktor
05 Jun 14,, 15:10
Nobody is blaming the victim here. The blame lies equally and squarely on the shoulders of the faceless goons who set the spiral of violence in motion.

Which led to the death of an innocent.

The thing you don't understand or don't want is, one can't kill random people because they got offended and shift part of the blame on someone who said something offensive.

Either go to court or swallow some of that pride and huge ego.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 15:13
The thing you don't understand or don't want is, one can't kill random people because they got offended and shift part of the blame on someone who said something offensive.

Either go to court or swallow some of that pride and huge ego.

Well, this is India. Our country, our laws.

Wait and see when the cocking thumb is caught.

It will be interesting to see how our courts decide on this case.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 15:15
What part of the killing of an innocent being a crime and deplorable did you fail to comprehend?

This part -


What was an equal crime was the inflammatory crap on Facebook that started it all.

Because you, instead of stating that the law should have taken it's course, defend the killing by saying it was the FB post that started it in the first place.

Because you have made many such posts, such as -


The girls were stupid. Not the stupidness of youth, but the stupidness of the misplaced arrogance of minority entitlement syndrome.

You are from Mumbai. You know the reality. Balasaheb was God for a huge majority of Mumbaikars. He was the reigning ruler of Mumbai. When a King dies, the people mourn. In such a charged environment if two stupid girls mouth off, the ramifications are not something you and I are unaware of.


A rap on the knuckles is a whole lot better than what could have, might have happened.


We are both citizens. LT too. Your rights extend up to and only where they start encroaching on mine. Expect pushback. Hard, if need be.

Learn how to behave. Or expect to be taught. This is real life. Not writers club or bloggers anonymous here.


Enough said.

The man lived and went like the King he was.

Haters can keep hating and cry their eyes out for all I care frankly. :)


India and America are two different countries. Differnt people. Different societies. Different histories.

While there might be some things we could and should learn, attempt to emulate and internalize from the Americans, as there would be some others they could and probaby would take from us, I am not sure that this is one of them.

We have made our society cohese and work and grow based on tenets of mutual respect and tolerance.

That goes out of the window when you start mouthing off and hurt others. Its simple. There are red lines. Do not cross them. And the fact that they are red lines is because they have historically been colored by real blood.

Learn. Adapt. Coexist.

Or provoke. And reap the wind.


Are you at it again? Its barely 7:30 ....

I don't smoke beedi.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 15:18
Well, this is India. Our country, our laws.

Wait and see when the cocking thumb is caught.

It will be interesting to see how our courts decide on this case.

But you have already decided, haven't you? Why are Courts needed now? The poor guy isn't going to come back.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 15:25
This part -

Yes, I do believe the facless thumb was as responsible for Mohsin's death as the guys of the Hindu Rashtra Sena who have already been caught and are in custody.


Because you, instead of stating that the law should have taken it's course, defend the killing by saying it was the FB post that started it in the first place.

Can you please point out the post, any post, where I have defended or condoned this killing? Please do not put words in my mouth. Or cast baseless aspersions here. It is not appreciated and will be refuted strongly.


Because you have made many such posts, such as -

These are the realities of our society. We do not live atop an Ivory Tower. We are a diverse society with very edgy and touchy people when it comes to a variety of issues.

If you incite, then people will get incited. There will be anger. And anger by its very nature is never in control. Hence our laws. Hence preemptive police action.

Always better to err on the side of safety than be sorry later.

Mohsin's death is a grim reminder that this is not all fun and games on faceless Facebook here. Real faces are affected. Real lives destroyed.


I don't smoke beedi.

I was referring to what you are notorious across forums for. Getting pissed and trolling. Unwelcome baggage which you seem to have carried here as well.

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 15:27
But you have already decided, haven't you? Why are Courts needed now? The poor guy isn't going to come back.

I can neither catch the thumb nor bring him/her to justice.

The police will do the former, the courts will do the latter.

What we decide or decry or debate here will have zero bearing on that.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 15:40
Yes, I do believe the facless thumb was as responsible for Mohsin's death as the guys of the Hindu Rashtra Sena who have already been caught and are in custody.

Can you please point out the post, any post, where I have defended or condoned this killing? Please do not put words in my mouth. Or cast baseless aspersions here. It is not appreciated and will be refuted strongly.

These are the realities of our society. We do not live atop an Ivory Tower. We are a diverse society with very edgy and touchy people when it comes to a variety of issues.

If you incite, then people will get incited. There will be anger. And anger by its very nature is never in control. Hence our laws. Hence preemptive police action.

Always better to err on the side of safety than be sorry later.

Mohsin's death is a grim reminder that this is not all fun and games on faceless Facebook here. Real faces are affected. Real lives destroyed.

I was referring to what you are notorious across forums for. Getting pissed and trolling. Unwelcome baggage which you seem to have carried here as well.

Same BS. Posting walls. Defending the killers instead. Welcome to my ignore list.

Oracle
05 Jun 14,, 15:44
Pune techie murder: 'First wicket fallen', said SMS by accused (https://in.news.yahoo.com/pune-techie-murder---first-wicket-fallen---said-sms-by-accused-050312216.html)

sated buddha
05 Jun 14,, 15:55
Welcome to my ignore list.

Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

antimony
05 Jun 14,, 18:13
Yes, I do believe the facless thumb was as responsible for Mohsin's death as the guys of the Hindu Rashtra Sena who have already been caught and are in custody.



What about the bastards who did all that property damage in Bombay, Pune etc.? What justice are these "sons of soil" facing?

Look, if you think the Facebook posts are inappropriate (which I don't) you are welcome to use the laws of the land to strike them down/ punish whoever did that.

Firestorm
05 Jun 14,, 21:40
Well, this is India. Our country, our laws.

Wait and see when the cocking thumb is caught.

It will be interesting to see how our courts decide on this case.

Even with our laws, the guys who posted the defaced images are not responsible for what the HR Sena murderers did. Even if these thugs had found the actual defacers and killed them, even then they would have been tried for murder and rightly so. In a democracy you cannot go around killing people who annoy or even disgust you. In this case, they just selected a random Muslim youth to vent their anger on.

As for those who posted the images, I hate them for defacing the picture of a man I revere (Shivaji, not Bal Thackeray), but I firmly believe that people should be allowed to say and post whatever they want on the internet as long as they aren't cyberstalking or harassing someone or indulging in other heinous crimes like child-pornography etc. They did not commit any crime in my mind, although our IT laws (which need to be amended) might say otherwise.

Double Edge
06 Jun 14,, 00:01
Have had this discussion with a lawyer some time back and he was of the view that anything offensive or derogatory constituted provocation for which the complainant could sue under existing law. It took some work because this guy could only talk about the way things stood right now. To speak about anything else was to him purely theoretical.

I'm asking to raise the bar, to increase freedom.


You think, honestly, that the recent Facbook posts were "criticism"?
have not seen them but let's say they are offensive or derogatory. Does not matter.


From Wiki:

Under Indian law, the freedom of speech and of the press do not confer an absolute right to express one's thoughts freely.Clause (2) of Article 19 of the Indian constitution enables the legislature to impose certain restrictions on free speech under following heads:
Am not advocating an absolute right. Very important. Am saying anything not amounting to incitement. To ignore incitement is to argue for absolutism which is idealistic and impractical.

Remember i'm talking about something that exists already in the US so this isn't some new idea nobody ever tried before without success.


Incitement to an offence: This ground was also added by the Constitution (First Amendment) Act, 1951. The Constitution also prohibits a person from making any statement that incites people to commit offence.
Fine, but 19(ii) allows more than that, it allows the below too, unfortunately


Now the other relevant Sections under the IPC .....

1) s 153A IPC makes it an offence to spread communal hate (an offence to promote enmity between groups "on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste, or community or any other ground whatsoever").

The section also prohibits:
• the promotion of ‘disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill-will’ between different communities through ‘words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise’ (section 153A(1)(a));
• acts which are ‘prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony’ between communities, or which ‘disturb or [are] likely to disturb the public tranquility’ (section 153A(1)(b)).

2) s 295A IPC prohibits ‘deliberate and malicious acts, intended to outrage religious feelings or any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs’;

3) s 298 IPC prohibits ‘uttering words, etc, with deliberate intent to wound religious feelings'

4) s.505(1) IPC prohibits ‘statements conducive to public mischief’

5) s.505(2) IPC prohibits ‘statements creating or promoting enmity, hatred or ill-will between classes’.

6) Under s 66A of the Information Technology Act 2000, publication of material which ‘is grossly offensive or has menacing character’, or which is broadcast, despite being known to be false, for the purpose of ‘causing annoyance, inconvenience, danger, obstruction, insult, injury, criminal intimidation, enmity, hatred or ill will’, is prohibited.
Am critiquing the above 'causing offense and promoting hatred' nonsense. Deliberate or not, malicious or not is immaterial.

You should be free to say you hate anything so long as you do not tell people to kill those you hate. That's where the line is drawn.

Hating them alone is fine. Over time what this does is tell the listener more about the person making the statement than the statement itself. It leaves those thoughts out there open to be challenged or countered by anyone.

Fight words with words.


The Information Technology (Intermediaries Guidelines) Rules 2011, functioning in addition to the Act, further expand the capacity of the government of India to prohibit ‘hate speech’. Significantly, unlike prior ‘hate speech’ provisions, they explicitly prohibit the ‘host[ing], display, upload[ing], modif[ication], publi[cation], trans[mission], updat[ing], or shar[ing]’ of any information which, as per clause 3(2)(b) of the Rules, is ‘blasphemous’

In addition, clause 3(2)(b) of the Rules prohibit the dissemination of material which is ‘racially [or] racially objectionable’, or ‘otherwise unlawful in any manner whatsoever’, while clause 3(2)(i) prohibits material which ‘threatens the unity, integrity, defence, security or sovereignty of India, friendly relations with foreign states, or public order or causes incitement to the commission of any cognisable offence or is insulting to any other nation.’

8) Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967 bans any organisation which violates s 153A, among other such provisions.

(...... hence the very prompt action by Facebook, Google, Yahoo, etc. in the past as well as now)
Right, bringing laws to date so as to perpetuate existing restrictions into the digital age.

All about making it easier to control/manage people than liberating them. In favour of those that run the state, not the people.



All the more reason for each group, be it linguistic, regional, communal, or anything else, to police itself and ensure that moronic mavericks within do not mouth off and jeopardise by their anonymous actions the larger whole which gets tarnished and painted with the same brush.
They already do that to a certain extent and get away with it. But if the common man dares try he gets bludgeoned.

What if these groups could actually say the sort of things they believe in that causes offense. Right now they do it with their actions. Over a period of time their message is going to wear thin. Worse, people will start to tire of them. What's in it for me they will ask.

People are going to fear them less, right now these groups have fear on their side. Do you really want to perpetuate their tyrannical rule ? why ? to keep the peace ? because the state just does not have the resources to go after them every time they go crazy whenever they feel like it. Why aren't you asking these questions. Are you this cowed by them or any group that threatens violence. if you or me did that we'd get locked up and rightly so but not these types. They have the security of numbers on their side. There never is enough evidence to go after them. They almost never get caught red handed. They crave the right kind of PR and go after anyone that gives them the wrong PR.Incidentally this is why India does not fare very high in world rankings when it comes to press freedom. Because it isn't the state that silences these journalists rather 'interested' groups.

The common man has to worry if the state will bang him up for causing offense failing which the goons will finish him off eventually. Do you see how it levels the playing field. Where one person can counter a whole group with just words. Oddly enough that's what these groups fear the most. That their cherished beliefs can be trashed that easily. Not exactly very big or strong or scary anymore.


The muscle power you speak off only comes to the fore when things go beyond a limit. Otherwise you know and I know and we all know that the same muscle power were it to have been rampantly used and abused would have caused social and communal anarchy in our country by now.
These groups help the state in keeping the peace or maintain the status quo ?

perversely this is why politicans patronise these groups, even terrorists serve a purpose too. The state looks the other way when they flip out so long as its not flagrant. A quid pro quo of sorts.


The fact remains that Indians as a whole are extremely clued into what causes offense and what is okay. They have learned to coexist over generations. When lines have been crossed, violence and blood letting that results, further reinforces established red lines and indicates new ones. Its a dynamic process. Its not perfect. But it works for us.
Ashish nandy had done some work on Cochin, that very old city that goes back thousands of years. it's quite interesting what he had to say. Long back people in that city were free to say they hated how things were and this actually helped to defuse problems. We've since gotten a lot more sensitive and weaker.


And I would venture to say that there is NO other country which is even remotely close to being as diverse as us and still living together largely peacefully.

Show me one other nation on earth that has 1 billion belonging to one faith and nearly 200 million belonging to another and still coexisting and thriving.

So don't buck what we have achieved and what we are trying to achieve. The Indian method works.

The Scandinavian one will incinerate us.
Am not bucking what we've achieved. The biggest problem with India is Indians. We've always held ourselves back. We've put stupid restrictions in place that absolutely crush the spirit of people who then flee abroad and all of a sudden grow wings and fly.

I'm asking why the hell can't we improve things so we can have what we want right here in our own country.

All about mind control, people control, turf control, state control. How else do we manage so many people. We have too many people, this is a liability not an asset :rolleyes:

antimony
06 Jun 14,, 00:01
Can you please point out the post, any post, where I have defended or condoned this killing? Please do not put words in my mouth. Or cast baseless aspersions here. It is not appreciated and will be refuted strongly.


Allow me

Post 60


That goes out of the window when you start mouthing off and hurt others. Its simple. There are red lines. Do not cross them. And the fact that they are red lines is because they have historically been colored by real blood.

Learn. Adapt. Coexist.

Or provoke. And reap the wind.


Post 70


Absolutely. Sow and grow organically. Do not infest and create a nuisance. Then pest control needs to be called in.


Post 78

I'm actually giving you a taste of your own medicine. Seems its as unpalatable to you as it is to me .....

Coming back.

If it gives offense and could snowball into a situation, it will be. We have more important things to take care of here than play nursemaid to big mouths. Stupid ones at that who Darwin should have culled by now.



You cannot put something in the public domain and order others to stay away. Say what you want in your home. When you speak in public, others will hear and react.

You don't like the reaction. Others don't like what caused the reaction.

A situation develops.

So either be judicious in what you say. And exert self control. Or have others exert it for you. Hopefully the state.

Always the threat of violence and retribution, if not by the state then by someone else. Yet you do not say it explicitly, and backtracked when called out.

Brass balls? You do not even have the guts to state your position clearly on an online forum and instead rely on subtle innuendos. Neither can you face it up like a man when called out.

You accuse others of hiding behind a laptop. You hide behind a bunch of goons who see it fit to establish their writ on a helpless city with the use of force.

antimony
06 Jun 14,, 00:14
Maharashtra police to crack whip on those who ‘like’ offensive Facebook posts - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maharashtra-police-to-crack-whip-on-those-who-like-offensive-Facebook-posts/articleshow/35974198.cms)


MUMBAI: In an attempt to contain protests over objectionable posts on a social networking site about Chhatrapati Shivaji, Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar and the late Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray, the Maharashtra police have decided to take action even against those who 'like' the controversial posts.

Those who 'like' such posts will be booked under the Information Technology Act and under the Code of Criminal Procedure, the Nanded police have said. A person could face three to five years in jail if convicted under Section 66 (a) of the IT Act (punishment for sending offensive messages through communication service, etc), applied in this case.


Are you fucking kidding me? 3-5 years for a "like" on Facebook?

sated buddha
06 Jun 14,, 07:33
What about the bastards who did all that property damage in Bombay, Pune etc.? What justice are these "sons of soil" facing?

What about them? At last count, 180 people have been arrested or detained by the police. Is there something else you are looking for perhaps? Drawing and quartering maybe?

And where do you get off using foul language on an open forum man? Sometimes its rabid dogs, other times bastards? Can you not make a point without resorting to gutterspeak?


Look, if you think the Facebook posts are inappropriate (which I don't) you are welcome to use the laws of the land to strike them down/ punish whoever did that.

The law was followed. Sections were slapped. The offending posts were removed. Facebook was obliged to pull them and block the offending IDs. But then after some time they appeared under a new ID. Same content. Even worse this time. That's when people seriously lost it. These are revered figures in Maharashtra. The reaction was not unexpected. Not only Facebook, this then started getting bounced around on Whatsapp. And spread like wildfire. The police were helpless. They have admitted today that Whatsapp cannot be controlle. That people need to be responsible and know what to post and what to forward. Social responsibility to maintain the peace. The police cannot be everywhere. If LT says that the Indian Army is powerless against an agitated populace, do you think our state police are better equipped? When emotions run high and tempers rise, things go bad very quickly. We have seen it too often not to realise what the warning signs are and where the red lines are which should not be crossed. Well they were crossed here, and I hold the perpetrators culpable. I look forward to them being caught, as they will be. Count on it. Post that, I look forward to how the Courts are going to look at this case. I do not recall anyone getting actualy kiled in the NE exodus fracas that happened similarly because of social media. This time an innocent Indian has lost his life. This should be a landmark judgment. A message needs to be sent out. A precedent set.

sated buddha
06 Jun 14,, 07:49
Allow me

Post 60

Post 70

Post 78

These are the realities of our society. We do not live atop an Ivory Tower. We are a diverse society with very edgy and touchy people when it comes to a variety of issues.

If you incite, then people will get incited. There will be anger. And anger by its very nature is never in control. Hence our laws. Hence preemptive police action.

Always better to err on the side of safety than be sorry later.

Mohsin's death is a grim reminder that this is not all fun and games on faceless Facebook here. Real faces are affected. Real lives destroyed.


Always the threat of violence and retribution, if not by the state then by someone else. Yet you do not say it explicitly, and backtracked when called out.

I am pointing out the realities of India to you. An Indian who is clueless about the country he comes from. And who's thinking is completely out of sync with the thinking of most Indians actually living in India. Yet who somehow believes that it is actually he who speaks for India and Indians. Please ....


Brass balls? You do not even have the guts to state your position clearly on an online forum and instead rely on subtle innuendos. Neither can you face it up like a man when called out.

My position is amply clear. And has been consistemt. I guess that's what pains you. No backing down.


You accuse others of hiding behind a laptop. You hide behind a bunch of goons who see it fit to establish their writ on a helpless city with the use of force.

I have never condoned violence against innocents. I do not need to hide behind anybody. I am a free Indian living openly with my family and kids on my own soil. Doing well for myself with God's grace. Working towards doing my bit for my country and my people. Speaking my mind without fear. Always have, always will.

lemontree
06 Jun 14,, 09:06
There is a difference between a terrorist and an angry incited mob. You do seem to favor the former - which implies cold calculations and pre-determined actions over spontaneous inflammations.

Thankfully the law and internal law and order apparatus does not share your views.
Terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism)
In the international community, terrorism has no legally binding, criminal law definition. Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts that are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants...

The above definition by wikipedia appears completely in sync with my views.


How can you say that? Did the political parties make the Facebook posts?
The political party in question has a history of instigating violence themselves...
Desecration of a statue of Bal Thakeray's late wife 2006 - The Telegraph - Calcutta : Nation (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1061012/asp/nation/story_6859673.asp)

So what (http://www.lokraj.org.in/?q=articles/news/so-what-s-new-about-mumbai-burning-our-response-opinion-article-hindu-online-edition)

In December 2010, the Pune police, apprehending violence at a protest called by the Sena, tapped Sena leaders’ phones and heard Milind Narvekar, Uddhav Thackeray’s PA, instruct Sena MLC Neelam Gorhe (a former Socialist) to gather a mob, burn buses and inform TV channels. Everything went according to plan; 54 buses were burnt.
The actual news report of the above two being arrested - Pune violence: Two Shiv Sena leaders booked - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/pune/Pune-violence-Two-Shiv-Sena-leaders-booked/articleshow/7190123.cms?referral=PM)

lemontree
06 Jun 14,, 09:15
Edited

antimony
06 Jun 14,, 14:58
These are the realities of our society. We do not live atop an Ivory Tower. We are a diverse society with very edgy and touchy people when it comes to a variety of issues.

If you incite, then people will get incited. There will be anger. And anger by its very nature is never in control. Hence our laws. Hence preemptive police action.

Always better to err on the side of safety than be sorry later.

Mohsin's death is a grim reminder that this is not all fun and games on faceless Facebook here. Real faces are affected. Real lives destroyed.



I am pointing out the realities of India to you. An Indian who is clueless about the country he comes from. And who's thinking is completely out of sync with the thinking of most Indians actually living in India. Yet who somehow believes that it is actually he who speaks for India and Indians. Please ....


Stop trying to make me laugh, its sickening. For a large part of the thread, and in other threads you were swinging about those fake brass balls, trying to prove that you are part of that group of Indians who will extract justice. Your glorification of the RSS and the "sons of soil" are proof of that. you backed down when called out.



My position is amply clear. And has been consistent. I guess that's what pains you. No backing down.


No, what pains me is that villagers from a hardscrabble UP backwater have shown more spine and character than the populace of a metropolis such as Bombay, in protesting against monsters among them



I have never condoned violence against innocents. I do not need to hide behind anybody. I am a free Indian living openly with my family and kids on my own soil. Doing well for myself with God's grace. Working towards doing my bit for my country and my people. Speaking my mind without fear. Always have, always will.

You have condoned violence against those you consider guilty. What gives you that right?

antimony
06 Jun 14,, 15:05
And where do you get off using foul language on an open forum man? Sometimes its rabid dogs, other times bastards? Can you not make a point without resorting to gutterspeak?

Foul language? Gutterspeak? People who torched 200 buses and shops? If I would condone mob rule of my own, I would have them drawn and quartered. Unfortunately, I believe in civilized justice.



The law was followed. Sections were slapped. The offending posts were removed. Facebook was obliged to pull them and block the offending IDs. But then after some time they appeared under a new ID. Same content. Even worse this time. That's when people seriously lost it. These are revered figures in Maharashtra. The reaction was not unexpected. Not only Facebook, this then started getting bounced around on Whatsapp. And spread like wildfire. The police were helpless. They have admitted today that Whatsapp cannot be controlle. That people need to be responsible and know what to post and what to forward. Social responsibility to maintain the peace. The police cannot be everywhere. If LT says that the Indian Army is powerless against an agitated populace, do you think our state police are better equipped? When emotions run high and tempers rise, things go bad very quickly. We have seen it too often not to realise what the warning signs are and where the red lines are which should not be crossed. Well they were crossed here, and I hold the perpetrators culpable. I look forward to them being caught, as they will be. Count on it. Post that, I look forward to how the Courts are going to look at this case. I do not recall anyone getting actualy kiled in the NE exodus fracas that happened similarly because of social media. This time an innocent Indian has lost his life. This should be a landmark judgment. A message needs to be sent out. A precedent set.

And always the blame at the wrong footstep. The perps are your sons of soil, not others. A precedent needs to be set, it will never be set because the police cannot apply the laws of the land. Udhav thakeray and his gang should be in jail, they will never be.

sated buddha
06 Jun 14,, 15:15
For a large part of the thread, and in other threads you were swinging about those fake brass balls, trying to prove that you are part of that group of Indians who will extract justice.

I'm sorry if that's the impression you got. Must be a perception problem. Or one of comprehension. Either way I have never claimed, directly or indirectly, to be part of any group that "extracts justice."

The brass balls was your contribution incidentally. From my side, I simply said that the world has two types of men. Those with balls, and those who were born with them but lost them midway.


Your glorification of the RSS and the "sons of soil" are proof of that. you backed down when called out.

I'm sorry once again, but how are we back to the RSS now? Where is the RSS involved in all of this? Do you have a pre-prgrammed button that gets activated on cue and you go around blabbering RSS, RSS at regular intervals?


No, what pains me is that villagers from a hardscrabble UP backwater have shown more spine and character than the populace of a metropolis such as Bombay, in protesting against monsters among them

You will then have to take it up with the spineless and characterless populace of Bombay. And who are these "monsters" btw? RSS ..... :)


You have condoned violence against those you consider guilty. What gives you that right?

Must be in your fertile imagination no doubt. Because I do not recall any such thing.

Really man, do you have anything inteligible to discuss or are you going to stick to this silly monster/rabid/bastard/RSS trip of yours? Its tiresome. And fruitless.

sated buddha
06 Jun 14,, 15:30
Foul language? Gutterspeak?

Absolutely. Is this the way you normaly speak?


People who torched 200 buses and shops? If I would condone mob rule of my own, I would have them drawn and quartered. Unfortunately, I believe in civilized justice.

As do we. 180 people have been arrested or detained. Inquiries are on. Procedure will be followed. Is there something more that needs to be done to meet your expectations of "civilized justice" perhaps? Do let me know. Will pass it on to my family member in Mumbai. Am sure he will be grateful for the education.


Udhav thakeray and his gang should be in jail, they will never be.

Why should they be in jail? For what? Just because you say so? Who is this "gang"? Udhav and his immediate family? Extended family? Shiv Sena upper leadership? Shiv Sena pramukhs? Or all Shiv Sainiks en masse? Please clarify and your legal rationale for this mass incarceration.

Udhav could possibly be the next CM of our state incidentally. Your statements are laughable and clueless as always.

antimony
07 Jun 14,, 02:50
I'm sorry if that's the impression you got. Must be a perception problem. Or one of comprehension. Either way I have never claimed, directly or indirectly, to be part of any group that "extracts justice."


Yes it is a problem, Its called chickening out.



The brass balls was your contribution incidentally. From my side, I simply said that the world has two types of men. Those with balls, and those who were born with them but lost them midway.


You brought balls in a discussion that did not need any, I just extended that. And you have lost them, midway through this thread



I'm sorry once again, but how are we back to the RSS now? Where is the RSS involved in all of this? Do you have a pre-prgrammed button that gets activated on cue and you go around blabbering RSS, RSS at regular intervals?


How convenient of you to leave out the Sons of soil. You have posting images of the SS thugs with a barely concealable sense of pride, on how they are always unafraid to be seen when they burn up the city.



You will then have to take it up with the spineless and characterless populace of Bombay. And who are these "monsters" btw? RSS ..... :)


I do so regularly when I meet my friends from Bombay, some of which have led to, shall we say, vigorous debates, which is fine.
And now I am taking it up with you. The Monsters? The Shiv Sena



Must be in your fertile imagination no doubt. Because I do not recall any such thing.


I have already shown it where you have done so. You want to continue to evade, fine.



Really man, do you have anything inteligible to discuss or are you going to stick to this silly monster/rabid/bastard/RSS trip of yours? Its tiresome. And fruitless.

Someone who has wet dreams about the Shiv Sena would obviously think so.

antimony
07 Jun 14,, 03:00
Absolutely. Is this the way you normaly speak?


No, I save it for your fascist heroes



As do we. 180 people have been arrested or detained. Inquiries are on. Procedure will be followed. Is there something more that needs to be done to meet your expectations of "civilized justice" perhaps? Do let me know. Will pass it on to my family member in Mumbai. Am sure he will be grateful for the education.


Yeah, you did so at the very end of the thread, after having been called out by multiple members. Before that it was all calls of retribution and revenge. That's called damage control/ checking out/ backpedalling



Why should they be in jail? For what? Just because you say so? Who is this "gang"? Udhav and his immediate family? Extended family? Shiv Sena upper leadership? Shiv Sena pramukhs? Or all Shiv Sainiks en masse? Please clarify and your legal rationale for this mass incarceration.


From Captain LT's post, seems pretty clear his coterie planned the riots



Udhav could possibly be the next CM of our state incidentally. Your statements are laughable and clueless as always.

Crooks and thugs have been elected to high offices before.

tbm3fan
07 Jun 14,, 05:25
And India has always been CONSISTENT on clamping down on stuff that can cause communal or social tension and unrest and violence and people potentially getting hurt or even killed.

We do it fairly and without bias across the board. For stuff that offends or has the potential to offend ANY section of our society.

There is no dictatorship of the majority here. Never has been, and never will be.

I've read through this whole thread trying to follow it with all the competing opinions. This one post stood out the most to me. The above is a pretty sad commentary on a society when you have to watch the society because they can't control their anger with one another over an insult if you will. Wow, sad, sad indeed. I can understand a 5 year old not being able to control their emotions but an adult has no excuse of any kind.

I have run into people who give you the finger for one reason or the other and laugh it off. Some may say F you and still laugh it off. So what, who the hell cares as I don't care what you think of me or don't think of me. You were just a small blip on the my big radar screen and so you will vanish in a moment. However, try those same "incitements" in another country and people go berserk. Seen it first hand in the Philippines where those men also have a hard time controlling their emotions. People there need to get a grip on their lives but apparently can't and so all these censorship laws. Fine, but don't use the term the world's biggest "democracy", just use world's biggest...

sated buddha
07 Jun 14,, 06:39
I've read through this whole thread trying to follow it with all the competing opinions. This one post stood out the most to me. The above is a pretty sad commentary on a society when you have to watch the society because they can't control their anger with one another over an insult if you will. Wow, sad, sad indeed. I can understand a 5 year old not being able to control their emotions but an adult has no excuse of any kind.

I have run into people who give you the finger for one reason or the other and laugh it off. Some may say F you and still laugh it off. So what, who the hell cares as I don't care what you think of me or don't think of me. You were just a small blip on the my big radar screen and so you will vanish in a moment. However, try those same "incitements" in another country and people go berserk. Seen it first hand in the Philippines where those men also have a hard time controlling their emotions. People there need to get a grip on their lives but apparently can't and so all these censorship laws. Fine, but don't use the term the world's biggest "democracy", just use world's biggest...

Sir, with all due respect, laws are made by people and for people. What works for you need not work for others. And vice versa. Does not automatically make you better or correct. Or vice versa.

You live in a country that officially spies on its people as state policy? You live in a country that oficially practices racial/ethnic/religious profiling as state and homeland security policy? You live in a country which has never voted a woman to President, and only recently after more than two centuries voted a man of color as its President?

I could equally well say that is pretty sad commentary for a nation that stands and has stood as the beacon of freedom and liberty and equality in this world for over 200 years. Or similarly ask what it says about the people and the society when their own state has to keep tabs on their emails and phone calls? That not only can they not be trusted as a whole, but some can be trusted even less than the others? Sad, sad indeed?

Maybe you should not use the term the world's oldest "democracy", just use world's oldest...

But I personally would not say any of the above, coz I recognize that there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to people or cultures.

Hope that clarifies. Without coming across as tit for tat. And without giving offense.

Bigfella
07 Jun 14,, 07:36
Once again it is fascinating to observe how much alike Chinese '50 centers' and Indian fanbous are. Its like you guys exchange scripts.

sated buddha
07 Jun 14,, 07:38
Yes there are huge cultural and historical and even spiritual similarities between the two civilizations and peoples. We've been abutting each other for millenia. We will rub off on each other in more ways than one.

A lot more than rub each other.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 09:09
Once again it is fascinating to observe how much alike Chinese '50 centers' and Indian fanbous are. Its like you guys exchange scripts.

Oh not again............

The person you are addressing as fanboy has done more hard work than few trolls, nitpicker and fear mongers who are spamming this thread with exaggeration and hypothetical personal gibberish.
..................................................

SB you have totally missed the point to convey all these so called concerned Indians that it is the law of the land at work which was there even before there beloved Congress-I was ruling the country.

To all outsider readers ''Our country Our rules'' minus turning into N.K :rolleyes:.

All other crimes which are happening has no involvement of the state rather state resources are on man hunt as we speak.

Also there are double standards shown which you failed to call out, when Hindus are burnt then the OP (Lamontree)was justifying their killing. The bravado was so high at adrenalins that he was ready to kill them all on that train with belted machine gun, because they were responsible for their alleged (fictional) crimes of agitating the innocent Muslims.

The same Muslims who recently have been involved in mass exodus of thousands and thousands of North east Indian pollution living in central-South India simply by hate SMSs are now again in question with people agitated on streets. You must see a pattern here, since they are Hindus, they do not fit in the gall blabber of Congress-I foot solders, apologist Hindus, pseudo experts of Hinduism, and a lobby who for right reasons is defending old posters.

sated buddha
07 Jun 14,, 09:21
Ambidex, I see have seen and will continue to see all of the above my friend.

And I have pointed out all of the above in the course of the last 3-4 threads where I have butted heads with these same Indians and expert foreign Indologists/social activists/flag bearers of dmocracy freedom liberty equality secularity free speech etc.

On LT, I have a soft corner and open respect for him. And I do understand him, as he me. He's pulled no punches, and neither have I. We are both Indians. Let's leave it at that.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 10:11
Ambidex,
On LT, I have a soft corner and open respect for him. And I do understand him, as he me. He's pulled no punches, and neither have I. We are both Indians. Let's leave it at that.

Oh whatever, I have lost my interest in anything he writes apart from his inputs on LOC, IB and army at times.

He is one of those lucy Indian who had plenty at home, came back home to then brag about how very few Christian in army have won so many medals for India than those poor Hindus who run their families from wages they earn serving at borders without proper bulwarks but still cannot claim for their sacrifices as made by Hindus. Take your pick who is communal here.

Call me an asshole who has just communalized the army but given the whole pattern one poster is following, it is easy to make an obvious diagnosis of the problem he is crying foul here.

There is no perfect country on the face of this earth but now suddenly if your level of disgust about union of India has increased because a non congress-I party has won; that you are now going to invent and dug excuses to portray India as North Korea, then only one remedy I can suggest and that is to pack your bags and leave the country for better places.

sated buddha
07 Jun 14,, 10:19
Oh whatever, I have lost my interest in anything he writes apart from his inputs on LOC, IB and army at times.

He is one of those lucy Indian who had plenty at home, came back home to then brag about how very few Christian in army have won so many medals for India than those poor Hindus who run their families from wages they earn serving at borders without proper bulwarks but still cannot claim for their sacrifices as made by Hindus. Take your pick who is communal here.

Call me an asshole who has just communalized the army but given the whole pattern one poster is following, it is easy to make an obvious diagnosis of the problem he is crying foul here.

There is no perfect country on the face of this earth but now suddenly if your level of disgust about union of India has increased because a non congress-I party has won; that you are now going to invent and dug excuses to portray India as North Korea, then only one remedy I can suggest and that is to pack your bags and leave the country for better places.

Give or take a few bits, I have said much the same to him on his face some time back as well. As well as to others who somehow believe that a soldier is always right, and all-knowing, and the only one with integrity. And on all counts, a common civilian always comes in second best.

Nobody is perfect.

While doing a forum search for "RSS" here I actually came upon a thread from 2006 where our good Captain was telling Indians that we need to be grateful to Christian run institutions for our education. And that if in return these institutions under the umbrella (facade?) of education also slipped in a little teeny weeny bit of evangelism and Christian preaching gratis, what was wrong? For him it was the most natural thing in the world, perfectly fair, and we had no right to be outraged as secular Indians because we should actually be grateful for the top quality (the best!) education we got from these institutions as part of the package deal. And if we did not like it, he did even provide an alternate suggestion as well. That we should leave and join a school run by the Arya Samaj or Sikh trust or even the Government. I was pleasantly shocked and amused to put in mildly, seeing as my entire family has been educated for generations in Convents and Jesuit institutions .......

But point is ambidex, he may be communal, he actually is communal (I call it minority entitlement syndrome), But he fought for India. And that in my book at least over-cancels the communal bit.

As I said, we understand each other.

Please expect the daggers to remain unsheathed for a long long time where the BJP, the so-called sangh parivaar, and Hindus in general are concerned. Because the BJP is here for the long haul, and the frustrations of the other side are only going to rise. One needs to vent and say "I told you so" - no matter how tenuous the link, or how absurd the logic. Classic case in point being some apologists and self-hating Indians who will pull in the RSS in the discussion of a crime done by a totally unrelated group. Why? Well both are Hindu, so they must be the same!!!!!!!!!!! And why stop there? By extension, lets take a broad swipe at 1/6th of humanity as well while we are at it. The undertones are clear and cannot be missed. At least not by someone like me who has been fighting their ilk (Indian and foreign) on social media and forums across cyberspace for years now.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 11:46
While doing a forum search for "RSS" here I actually came upon a thread from 2006 where our good Captain was telling Indians that we need to be grateful to Christian run institutions for our education. And that if in return these institutions under the umbrella (facade?) of education also slipped in a little teeny weeny bit of evangelism and Christian preaching gratis, what was wrong? For him it was the most natural thing in the world, perfectly fair, and we had no right to be outraged as secular Indians because we should actually be grateful for the top quality (the best!) education we got from these institutions as part of the package deal. And if we did not like it, he did even provide an alternate suggestion as well. That we should leave and join a school run by the Arya Samaj or Sikh trust or even the Government. I was pleasantly shocked and amused to put in mildly, seeing as my entire family has been educated for generations in Convents and Jesuit institutions .......


DAV schools are giving far more better education than convent schools (I am from Sarkari School PSEB, where English was introduced (Alphabets) at year 6 level BTW). Hindu charity organizations without asking others to convert, are spending more money on poor than any other organization in India.


But point is ambidex, he may be communal, he actually is communal (I call it minority entitlement syndrome), But he fought for India. And that in my book at least over-cancels the communal bit.


It is not about others are communal or not, it is starting wrong by Indians who then gradually developed habit of being compulsive politically correct and failed to put things in perceptive before going ga ga all over, telling rest of the world we are a secular nation. Look what UK PM said recently. (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-16224394)

Now people those who are pretending rattled by so called rise of Hindu nationalism are not looking at the natural orders of things that with or without Modi/RSS the Hindu votes were doomed to consolidate.


Please expect the daggers to remain unsheathed for a long long time where the BJP, the so-called sangh parivaar, and Hindus in general are concerned. Because the BJP is here for the long haul, and the frustrations of the other side are only going to rise. One needs to vent and say "I told you so" - no matter how tenuous the link, or how absurd the logic. Classic case in point being some apologists and self-hating Indians who will pull in the RSS in the discussion of a crime done by a totally unrelated group. Why? Well both are Hindu, so they must be the same!!!!!!!!!!! And why stop there? By extension, lets take a broad swipe at 1/6th of humanity as well while we are at it. The undertones are clear and cannot be missed. At least not by someone like me who has been fighting their ilk (Indian and foreign) on social media and forums across cyberspace for years now.

If you are good watcher of socio-political affairs of India then you should know that Christian are more rattled by rise of BJP than Muslims themselves. There are plenty of issues simmering as we talk which are soon going to become big, I am predicting here. There is plenty of money at stakes of foreign missionaries who are hunting Hindus soles in Indian heartlands. I have meet two teachers just recently who every year on air ticket sponsored by local Church go to Imphal to heal people.

BJP has been taking their criticism with grace and playing with straight bat for last 4-5 years. They have learnt their lessons after leftist elites who have never seen the real India on NDTV et al, single-handedly destroyed their run to power and trolled their Shining India campaign which was not far from reality if we see in the hindsight. I have full confidence in pool of academicians BJP has accumulated that they understand the nuances of such propaganda.

sated buddha
07 Jun 14,, 12:36
BJP has been taking their criticism with grace and playing with straight bat for last 4-5 years. They have learnt their lessons after leftist elites who have never seen the real India on NDTV et al, single-handedly destroyed their run to power and trolled their Shining India campaign which was not far from reality if we see in the hindsight. I have full confidence in pool of academicians BJP has accumulated that they understand the nuances of such propaganda.

There is no denying on which side of this divide the majority of the educated, articulate, and social media active in India as well as abroad (diaspora) lean.

They have been owning the other side for some time now in public discourse, and I do not see that trend being bucked for some time to come. Its the natural progression of education being followed by the opening of one's eyes.

The more eyes open, the more the migration. Its the law of nature.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jun 14,, 14:03
To all outsider readers ''Our country Our rules'' minus turning into N.K :rolleyes:.Well, you're in Australia on an American board dominated by Westerners. We can say anything we want. Our house. Our rules. Don't like it? Leave.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 14:09
Well, you're in Australia on an American board dominated by Westerners. We can say anything we want. Our house. Our rules. Don't like it? Leave.

What it has to do with context of my post ?

Officer of Engineers
07 Jun 14,, 14:20
Your post implies that your country, your laws and we have no say in it whatsoever. We have no impact but I will called a damned fucking Nazi a damned fucking Nazi when I see one.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 14:33
Your post implies that your country, your laws and we have no say in it whatsoever. We have no impact but I will called a damned fucking Nazi a damned fucking Nazi when I see one.

Nazi for what ? Because a man is arrested by police on a complaint (following guidelines of an existing law) for spreading rumors of eminent holocaust of Muslims on facebook.

Canadian laws should be far more stricter if I am making a guess ?

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 14:45
Your post implies that your country, your laws and we have no say in it whatsoever.

No it doesn't implies the way you are trying to impinge. Our Country our law doesn't mean you have no right to deplore it. The same argument has been made in this very forum before on couple of occasions.

It is only an argument to give it another facet during this multi-quote discourse where plenty has been already said and then there are many examples available within the ambit of common laws existing in your own countries, regarding spreading rumors, hate posts, inciting violence, blasphemy, defamation etc.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jun 14,, 15:11
Nazi for what ?Are you shitting me!

SB has been touting Hindustan for Hindus, saying that this is their common culture and then directly proceeded to identify every other Indian who does not agree with him as a foreigner, Boink, Maratha, Tibetan, etc. He spouts the law of the land when it suits him (Facebook), asks for understanding and blaming the victims (riots and murder) to reduce the crime, and outright ignore the laws of the land (Kashmir) when it will not get him what he wants.

FUCKING NAZI!


Because a man is arrested by police on a complaint (following guidelines of an existing law) for spreading rumors of eminent holocaust of Muslims on facebook.So that justifies riots?


Canadian laws should be far more stricter if I am making a guess ?One does not allow the other. Just because some Nazi calls for a holocaust does not give you leave to riot in downtown Toronto.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jun 14,, 15:19
It is only an argument to give it another facet during this multi-quote discourse where plenty has been already said and then there are many examples available within the ambit of common laws existing in your own countries, regarding spreading rumors, hate posts, inciting violence, blasphemy, defamation etc.And the courts take care of it. Not justification for perceived vigilantism.

The thumb that cocks the gun. What a load of fucking crock.

antimony
07 Jun 14,, 16:09
I've read through this whole thread trying to follow it with all the competing opinions. This one post stood out the most to me. The above is a pretty sad commentary on a society when you have to watch the society because they can't control their anger with one another over an insult if you will. Wow, sad, sad indeed. I can understand a 5 year old not being able to control their emotions but an adult has no excuse of any kind.

I have run into people who give you the finger for one reason or the other and laugh it off. Some may say F you and still laugh it off. So what, who the hell cares as I don't care what you think of me or don't think of me. You were just a small blip on the my big radar screen and so you will vanish in a moment. However, try those same "incitements" in another country and people go berserk. Seen it first hand in the Philippines where those men also have a hard time controlling their emotions. People there need to get a grip on their lives but apparently can't and so all these censorship laws. Fine, but don't use the term the world's biggest "democracy", just use world's biggest...

TBM

I agree overall with your post but the last part was quite uncalled for. Unlikely the US which puts up multiple barriers for citizens to vote, including separate jurisdictions having separate laws on identity proof, unequal voting rights, inconsistent voting methods, India has actually gone out of it s way to ensure that each citizen has a say, in a fairly consistent manner. Everyone has the right to vote and out election authorities go out of their way to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to vote. Unlike the US, we do not have citizens with gas bills wrangling with authorities for the right to vote. Nor do we have hanging chads.

Hot tempers? What would you expect in a deeply traditional fractious society? Look at other comparable societies and see how they act. you know who you should blame? Religion.

Censorship? I find this fairly disingenuous. Yes, the US has full freedom of speech, which I greatly respect. Most other societies, including western democracies, have some sort of censorship.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 16:10
SB has been touting Hindustan for Hindus saying that this is their common culture and then directly proceeded to identify every other Indian who does not agree with him as a foreigner, Boink, Maratha, Tibetan, etc. He spouts the law of the land when it suits him (Facebook), asks for understanding and blaming the victims (riots and murder) to reduce the crime, and outright ignore the laws of the land (Kashmir) when it will not get him what he wants.

FUCKING NAZI!

Let SB say on these accusations.

BTW You should have shown the same exasperation when Lamontree justified burning of Hindus in a train which had women and children in it.

India is for Indians not Christians and Muslims. If you need special treatment then stop pretending secular, that is my point.


So that justifies riots?

I think you are out of sync with the events that has happened in India. In this Facebook case Police acted promptly and made an example of him. He could have rather agitated Muslims against PM Modi. The trick of Congress-I was (and I can post a video of an eminent journalist)that you spread so much fear and hate about Modi and then bet on some angry Muslim killing him. A Muslim leader from Sharanpur made his video of saying cutting Modi into pieces, self posted it and then whole rank and file of Congress-I came in his support with an excuse that he represent resentment of Muslims. The EC let that goon contest the election as well.

If you are in syn with these events then my answer is in the same language, that nothing justifies riots. But since this forum claim to be visited by dinosaurs then there is no harm in discussing the mechanisms of riots than restricting others on sanctimonious preaching.

Riots do happen, you can not simply close your eyes and pretend of not knowing the mechanisms of trigger of riots. Those who are trained to control riots study it and understand the justification that can be invented, made and prevalent psych of population sensitive to few matter that can evoke passions.



One does not allow the other. Just because some Nazi calls for a holocaust does not give you leave to riot in downtown Toronto.

Right, but only in theory, riots do happen. Canadians are rioting for bloody hockey matches, and what not.

antimony
07 Jun 14,, 16:13
Oh whatever, I have lost my interest in anything he writes apart from his inputs on LOC, IB and army at times.

He is one of those lucy Indian who had plenty at home, came back home to then brag about how very few Christian in army have won so many medals for India than those poor Hindus who run their families from wages they earn serving at borders without proper bulwarks but still cannot claim for their sacrifices as made by Hindus. Take your pick who is communal here.

Call me an asshole who has just communalized the army but given the whole pattern one poster is following, it is easy to make an obvious diagnosis of the problem he is crying foul here.

There is no perfect country on the face of this earth but now suddenly if your level of disgust about union of India has increased because a non congress-I party has won; that you are now going to invent and dug excuses to portray India as North Korea, then only one remedy I can suggest and that is to pack your bags and leave the country for better places.

Fine, you are an asshole.

Oops, sorry, I withdraw:whome:

Tell you what, going forward we will refer to you as "A". You can speculate on whether that means Ambidex or something rhyming with glasshole;):cool:

Double Edge
07 Jun 14,, 16:16
Yes there are huge cultural and historical and even spiritual similarities between the two civilizations and peoples. We've been abutting each other for millenia. We will rub off on each other in more ways than one.

A lot more than rub each other.
This is one of the things i wonder about. The Asian mentality is to accept some individual compromises for the benefit of the collective. Might have worked in an earlier era but with the 'want it and now' types not so much.

We have a youth bulge and they are impressionable.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 16:30
And the courts take care of it. Not justification for perceived vigilantism.

The thumb that cocks the gun. What a load of fucking crock.

In this case an innocent Muslim guy was killed for making alleged disrespecting comments about Shiva Ji and Bal Thakrey. The state machinery is out to nab those bastards (have already few), MHA, media are were prompt and out to condemn such mentality.

But there are some harsh realities, I would rather advise anyone who can read this not visit India or go to these states without knowing the dos and don'ts. You want to assume that mobs are not mad then it is your choice. Any sane Indian who understands these things don't fuck up with list of dos and donts.

If you go to Tamilnaidu don't say any thing disrespecting against Rajnikant (who is just an average actor) or you (you means not you Sir) will be beaten to pulp. For not removing statue of Shiva Ji because it could have evoked riots the architect of multi-million dollar project of renovating of CSI Airport was changed.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 16:39
Fine, you are an asshole.

Oops, sorry, I withdraw:whome:

Tell you what, going forward we will refer to you as "A". You can speculate on whether that means Ambidex or something rhyming with glasshole;):cool:

Be brave enough to call others asshole than being coward who can not say 'wrong a wrong' but is an apologist clown who moans like a bitch on every change of paragraph .

BTW that was a bait to attract real assholes and guess what, you are the first one. I never communalized the army but those who bragged about their religion's contribution for a most secular organization. I am still waiting for the answer of my question I kept close to my chest for last two years.

I know your comprehension skills are not better than a high school drop out but next time you quote me then try read properly to whom my post was addressed.

antimony
07 Jun 14,, 16:43
Be brave enough to call others asshole than being coward who can not say 'wrong a wrong' but is an apologist clown who moans like a bitch on every change of paragraph .

BTW that was a bait to attract real assholes and guess what you are the first one. I never communalized the army but those who bragged about their religion's contribution for a most secular organization. I am still waiting for the answer of my my question I kept close to my chest for last two years.

I know your comprehension skills are not better than a high school drop out but next time you quote me then try read properly to whom my post was addressed.

Lolz,



I never communalized the army but those who bragged about their religion's contribution for a most secular organization.


"I am not a racist, but..."

All this from your safe perch in a foreign land, from where you dare to mock someone who wore the uniform.

Double Edge
07 Jun 14,, 16:54
DAV schools are giving far more better education than convent schools (I am from Sarkari School PSEB, where English was introduced (Alphabets) at year 6 level BTW). Hindu charity organizations without asking others to convert, are spending more money on poor than any other organization in India.
Debatable


It is not about others are communal or not, it is starting wrong by Indians who then gradually developed habit of being compulsive politically correct and failed to put things in perceptive before going ga ga all over, telling rest of the world we are a secular nation. Look what UK PM said recently. (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-16224394)
What you do you expect with 19(ii) ?

What am i to make of Cameron's statement ? Certainly not as much as you are reading into it. He's a politician first & foremost and he's playing to his supporters. Bush did this with creationism back in 2005. A debate that's been junked since 1925. In India they are trying to push vedic education, which is just Indian creationsim. It's going to get slammed.

PC in the west helps you hold onto your job. It does not land you in jail like 19(ii) in India.

But as to what a country is, looks at its laws that set it up. I'd look at the constitution. Not what some politico claims.


Now people those who are pretending rattled by so called rise of Hindu nationalism are not looking at the natural orders of things that with or without Modi/RSS the Hindu votes were doomed to consolidate.
Lol, like they did in 2004 & 2009. Repeat this to yourself and stop being a cheerleader.

Jobs, Scams, Inflation
Jobs, Scams, Inflation
Jobs, Scams, Inflation

..

Modi knows it but how many of his so called supporters do i wonder. Because if he does not deliver those same votes will decisively consolidate against him.

Modi got into the development game to rehabilitate himself from Godhra. Who was his inspiration ? Chandraba Naidu, who'd been at the development game as early as the mid-nineties.

One bad monsoon and he goes to the elections in 2003 and gets wiped out. Had he been in power i daresay, he'd have given Modi some serious competition in the development stakes.


If you are good watcher of socio-political affairs of India then you should know that Christian are more rattled by rise of BJP than Muslims themselves. There are plenty of issues simmering as we talk which are soon going to become big, I am predicting here. There is plenty of money at stakes of foreign missionaries who are hunting Hindus soles in Indian heartlands. I have meet two teachers just recently who every year on air ticket sponsored by local Church go to Imphal to heal people.
Muslims got to see how muslim votes did not result in more restrictive 'sharia' being implemented in the arab world.


BJP has been taking their criticism with grace and playing with straight bat for last 4-5 years. They have learnt their lessons after leftist elites who have never seen the real India on NDTV et al, single-handedly destroyed their run to power and trolled their Shining India campaign which was not far from reality if we see in the hindsight. I have full confidence in pool of academicians BJP has accumulated that they understand the nuances of such propaganda.
I think the BJP are a bunch of simpletons when it comes to dirty tricks. The GOP has had decades of experience in that. One slip up and the shrill cries and never ending baiting will go out.

I find myself increasingly having to concentrate on India nowadays than foreign affairs as there is just so much BS around. The supporters/detractors always look to hijack a discussion.

Shining India took me a while to figure out. I see it as a way to hardsell India to the world. To show Indians that the world is interested in India. We need to follow up on that with more than words.

TopHatter
07 Jun 14,, 17:36
Let's everybody keep it cool here and knock off the personal attacks please.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jun 14,, 18:18
BTW You should have shown the same exasperation when Lamontree justified burning of Hindus in a train which had women and children in it.I didn't read those. But my blood boiled when it happened. It's boiling now.


India is for Indians not Christians and Muslims. If you need special treatment then stop pretending secular, that is my point.SB didn't say India for Indians. He said Hindustan for Hindus ... and then proceeded to identify those who are not Hindus.


I think you are out of sync with the events that has happened in India. In this Facebook case Police acted promptly and made an example of him. He could have rather agitated Muslims against PM Modi. The trick of Congress-I was (and I can post a video of an eminent journalist)that you spread so much fear and hate about Modi and then bet on some angry Muslim killing him. A Muslim leader from Sharanpur made his video of saying cutting Modi into pieces, self posted it and then whole rank and file of Congress-I came in his support with an excuse that he represent resentment of Muslims. The EC let that goon contest the election as well.What, you're actually supporting thought police? The more I read about this, the more it disgusts me. Yeah, I know the Ghandi Dynasty did the same or worst and that disgusts me but your country, your rules. Don't expect the rest of us to like it or say nothing about it, especially when this is not an Indian based forum.


If you are in syn with these events then my answer is in the same language, that nothing justifies riots. But since this forum claim to be visited by dinosaurs then there is no harm in discussing the mechanisms of riots than restricting others on sanctimonious preaching.

Riots do happen, you can not simply close your eyes and pretend of not knowing the mechanisms of trigger of riots. Those who are trained to control riots study it and understand the justification that can be invented, made and prevalent psych of population sensitive to few matter that can evoke passions.And we deploy in force to limit damage. We may not be able to prevent riots but we sure as hell can and do confront it head on. We don't look the other way.


Right, but only in theory, riots do happen. Canadians are rioting for bloody hockey matches, and what not.And we go after them. A STANLEY CUP is no justification for destroying lives and property.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 18:26
What am i to make of Cameron's statement ? Certainly not as much as you are reading into it. He's a politician first & foremost and he's playing to his supporters. Bush did this with creationism back in 2005. A debate that's been junked since 1925. In India they are trying to push vedic education, which is just Indian creationsim. It's going to get slammed.

I can see you are drawing new lines of debate and talking about everything.


PC in the west helps you hold onto your job. It does not land you in jail like 19(ii) in India.

You are mixing topic of political and legal debate with being professionally political correct. By being politically correct in India I meant to say appeasement of minorities by political class. When PM of India will say that Muslims have first right on India's resources then it is doomed to taken up by right Hindu groups and used to its best millage.


But as to what a country is, looks at its laws that set it up. I'd look at the constitution. Not what some politico claims.

Then what is this fuss all about being over censorious for BJP leaders ? Let them work under the umbrella of constitution of India, the institutions are so strong that they will be put in their right place even if out of power they were evil.

The only people who have undermined the constitutional bodies are Sonia Gandhi lead UPA 2 leaders, and the list goes like this CBI, CAG, PAC, JPC on 2G.



Lol, like they did in 2004 & 2009. Repeat this to yourself and stop being a cheerleader.

Jobs, Scams, Inflation
Jobs, Scams, Inflation
Jobs, Scams, Inflation


Because if he does not deliver those same votes will decisively consolidate against him.

Once lost on communal polarization, assume its is done deal of congress-I to bid good bye for a long time. The example is Gujarat, Rajiv Gandhi sweeping polls after killing Sikhs.


Muslims got to see how muslim votes did not result in more restrictive 'sharia' being implemented in the arab world.

I don't know what you are saying here again.


I think the BJP are a bunch of simpletons when it comes to dirty tricks. The GOP has had decades of experience in that. One slip up and the shrill cries will go out.

GOP's dirty tricks made Mr. Clinton visit India, meet ABP and a paradigm shift in US policy towards India happened.

ambidex
07 Jun 14,, 18:36
SB didn't say India for Indians. He said Hindustan for Hindus ... and then proceeded to identify those who are not Hindus.


Sir, I will quote rest at another time, It is now 0530 am here at my place. If SB has said it then it is coming out of booklets of RSS. They are the same people who were made run with tails between legs by Sikh groups who started abusing Hindu gods openly for calling them not Sikhs but Hindus.

Doktor
07 Jun 14,, 22:14
The thumb that cocks the gun. What a load of fucking crock.

Life was way too comfy when you were not checking blocked messages. I am sorry I made him make that remark.

I am on a split mind if he has already departed in extreme or he is cracking between what he knows is right and what he is served to be right.

antimony
07 Jun 14,, 23:34
DAV schools are giving far more better education than convent schools (I am from Sarkari School PSEB, where English was introduced (Alphabets) at year 6 level BTW). Hindu charity organizations without asking others to convert, are spending more money on poor than any other organization in India.


Exactky how do you justify this claim?



It is not about others are communal or not, it is starting wrong by Indians who then gradually developed habit of being compulsive politically correct and failed to put things in perceptive before going ga ga all over, telling rest of the world we are a secular nation. Look what UK PM said recently. (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-16224394)


Of course the UK is a Christian nation. Its head of state is the queen, who is also the head of the Church of england. what does that have to do with India?

Officer of Engineers
08 Jun 14,, 03:29
Sir, I will quote rest at another time, It is now 0530 am here at my place. If SB has said it then it is coming out of booklets of RSS. They are the same people who were made run with tails between legs by Sikh groups who started abusing Hindu gods openly for calling them not Sikhs but Hindus.If you are apouting what I think you're spouting, then I agree with you. Hitesh, for all his hatre for the Brits, will not deny British India is India.

How do I say this? India was the British Empire. Yeah, I know it sucks you Indians think otherwise. Canada, Australia, the Americas, compared to India at the time? Come on!!

Yes, we've done better but that does not erase your histoy. Unlike the Chinese who claims the Mongol Empire as their own, the Indians can rightfully claim the British Empire as their own. Your regiments served across the globe!

Your regiments killed two monsters. SB wanted to be Hitler!

Officer of Engineers
08 Jun 14,, 03:40
Life was way too comfy when you were not checking blocked messages. I am sorry I made him make that remark.

I am on a split mind if he has already departed in extreme or he is cracking between what he knows is right and what he is served to be right.For the first time in his life, he confronted men with courage of their convictions. Even Indian men. Men who will not back down in front of thugs ... and he hides behind thugs.

bolo121
08 Jun 14,, 07:03
India is for Indians not Christians and Muslims. If you need special treatment then stop pretending secular, that is my point.

This quote shows the common point that unites SB, Ambidex and Blade.
They do not consider people other than Hindus as Indian.
The rest of us especially according to several prolific walls of text from SB are just fools who need to rediscover the hindutva in us.
The Constitution declared India to be a sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic republic.
The bolded part is what they dont like.

ambidex
08 Jun 14,, 08:10
Exactky how do you justify this claim?

Even if the claim is false what has made your theological underwear go into twist.


Of course the UK is a Christian nation. Its head of state is the queen, who is also the head of the Church of england. what does that have to do with India?

Exactly my point, they have kept things in perspective that apologists like you are drafting eulogistic phrases for them.

ambidex
08 Jun 14,, 08:27
If you are apouting what I think you're spouting, then I agree with you. Hitesh, for all his hatre for the Brits, will not deny British India is India.

I don't blog in packs so I don't know what Hitesh has to say on the topic in hand.


How do I say this? India was the British Empire. Yeah, I know it sucks you Indians think otherwise. Canada, Australia, the Americas, compared to India at the time? Come on!!


British were rather kicked out with lock stock and barrel unlike Islamic invaders who are still coexisting with us. Invasion of Britain is rather small dotted line in age of subcontinent. Guess what, we rather played smart, bid them good bye forever unlike other natives who are still subservient to queen and part of commonwealth.


Yes, we've done better but that does not erase your histoy. Unlike the Chinese who claims the Mongol Empire as their own, the Indians can rightfully claim the British Empire as their own. Your regiments served across the globe!


I don't think it is my argument. To me Aurangzeb was rather better Indian who through out his life enforced Europeans to pay taxes and fined for infringements they committed.

India is far more pluralistic to be constrained into even your definition on how we should be perceiving our history. We respect Brigadiar Ray who takes proud in his family's contribution fighting for the crown during WWII and at the same time cherish efforts of Azad Hind Fauj.

For an outsiders we might be contradicting ourselves or suffering some identity crisis, but for us we have privilege to take either side to exasperate people who don't do their home work before calling us out.

ambidex
08 Jun 14,, 08:29
This quote shows the common point that unites SB, Ambidex and Blade.
They do not consider people other than Hindus as Indian.
The rest of us especially according to several prolific walls of text from SB are just fools who need to rediscover the hindutva in us.
The Constitution declared India to be a sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic republic.
The bolded part is what they dont like.

Stop making judgement about people, I am afraid you do not have pay scale to make personal comments about me.

bolo121
08 Jun 14,, 08:42
Stop making judgement about people, I am afraid you do not have pay scale to make personal comments about me.

Pay scale? Are you owner of my company or something? I thought you were a NZ based doc?
In your own words you have judged me not to be an Indian so I am well within my rights to judge you back.

ambidex
08 Jun 14,, 08:59
Pay scale? Are you owner of my company or something? I thought you were a NZ based doc?
In your own words you have judged me not to be an Indian so I am well within my rights to judge you back.

Posted edited.

I will ignore your this post for sake of keeping the thread clean.

bolo121
08 Jun 14,, 09:06
Posted edited.

I will ignore your this post for sake of keeping the thread clean.

Very well, detente it is.