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raptor1992
22 Jun 05,, 19:08
which air force would win using only current generation, that means 4-4.5 generation aircraft with no assistance from naval and land forces

raptor1992
22 Jun 05,, 19:13
i think the Indian Air Force would win with the current generation bacause they have jet that are superior to western jets in many aspects (except for avionics).

Aryaramnaes
22 Jun 05,, 20:09
There is no way we can beat the USAF. They outweigh us in Quality and Quantity.

raptor1992
22 Jun 05,, 20:46
but the IAF have the Su-30MKI and MiG-29 that are superior to the US F-15 and F-16. in fact IAF defeated the USAF in a mock combat. in 5th generation battle we would whoop IAF with our F-22 and F-35 but we don't have these planes in large numbers to make them useful.

raptor1992
22 Jun 05,, 20:47
the chinese are also developing 5th generation fighter that would be a threat to USAF

Aryaramnaes
23 Jun 05,, 03:22
they have way more F 16s and F 15s than India has Su 30 MKI (140) and Mig 29(60). Our Mig 29's also arent as good as the latest versions of the F 15 and F 16.

ZFBoxcar
23 Jun 05,, 03:47
F-16s have destroyed plenty of MiG-29s but no MiG-29 (or any other plane) has ever destroyed an F-16 (as far as I know).

Samudra
23 Jun 05,, 05:22
Dear me !

Quit creating these threads ,please.

Jay
23 Jun 05,, 06:08
the chinese are also developing 5th generation fighter that would be a threat to USAF

Actually its a starship...and it can beat the hell out of any fighter jets produced in the world :frown:

bull
23 Jun 05,, 11:11
the chinese are also developing 5th generation fighter that would be a threat to USAF

Dont make me laugh raptor ,i just had my lunch.

bull
23 Jun 05,, 11:16
F-16s have destroyed plenty of MiG-29s but no MiG-29 (or any other plane) has ever destroyed an F-16 (as far as I know).

We cant give a right call unless we know what generation planes they are using.
For eg if i say BMW M3 VS Merecedes CLK AMG who will win?No one can answer unless i tell their year of make.
If it is 1982 M3 and 2005 CLK AMG then the 2005 CLK AMG would win.

The same way,All the fights that f-16 had taken where on the older generation MIG 29,so i dont hold the opinion of 79 - 0 or whatever.Unless they take on the same generation MIG 29.

Hawg166
23 Jun 05,, 13:39
I think a properly cordinated strike package of A10's and F-15's would prevent the IAF from getting off the ground. Or are you referring to a strictly DACM encounter in the up high, go fast with white scarf flapping in the wind type of fight ?

bull
23 Jun 05,, 13:48
I think a properly cordinated strike package of A10's and F-15's would prevent the IAF from getting off the ground.

No No thats not allowed.We fight only afte IAF is off the ground.

PS:That was a joke i dont think so, IAF is a pushover when it comes to 4 the gen fighters.

Hawg166
23 Jun 05,, 15:16
Anything that shoots real bullets and drops real bombs is never a joke. Slightly less threatening than some other weapons systems maybe, but never a joke.

shadow
23 Jun 05,, 17:18
No No thats not allowed.We fight only afte IAF is off the ground.

PS:That was a joke i dont think so, IAF is a pushover when it comes to 4 the gen fighters.

I dont think u wud again make that mistake by calling it a joke :rolleyes: . but overall..there is a world of diff betn IAF and USAF. superiority lies in technology, quantity.

raptor1992
24 Jun 05,, 01:46
Dont make me laugh raptor ,i just had my lunch.

i'm not saying it's gonna beat the crap out of us i'm just saying that it may come kinda close to the F/A-22. i can't comfirm this though because there's not much info on it.

raptor1992
24 Jun 05,, 01:49
Actually its a starship...and it can beat the hell out of any fighter jets produced in the world

not the F/A-22. oh yeah it's not literally a starship it's just a name for it.

raptor1992
24 Jun 05,, 01:51
i'm also flanker1992 so when you see that it's me :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

flanker1992
24 Jun 05,, 01:52
see i'm raptor1992.

Bill
24 Jun 05,, 04:44
It's against board rules to post under multiple user names.

I suggest you drop one of them immediately.

bull
24 Jun 05,, 12:36
I dont think u wud again make that mistake by calling it a joke :rolleyes: . but overall..there is a world of diff betn IAF and USAF. superiority lies in technology, quantity.

i think we said 4 th genration.

Not F-22 VS MIg 21!!!

raptor1992
24 Jun 05,, 18:46
ok. i'll never use flanker1992. i never did anyway hehe :biggrin:

raptor1992
24 Jun 05,, 18:58
how do you drop one anyway. i'm new.

raptor1992
24 Jun 05,, 19:11
we're talking 4-4.5 generation like F-15E vs. Su-27SK.

Bill
24 Jun 05,, 23:02
"how do you drop one anyway. i'm new."

Just don't use the other screen name any more.

raptor1992
25 Jun 05,, 01:11
how many Su-30MKIs are gonna be produced anyway? are they enough to threaten our 4th generation fighters altogether

raptor1992
25 Jun 05,, 01:15
indian also have mir 2000 that's better than the F-16. i wonder if they continue to update this aircraft

troung
25 Jun 05,, 01:27
indian also have mir 2000 that's better than the F-16. i wonder if they continue to update this aircraft

Actually USAF F-16Cs are more advanced then the InAFs Mirage 2000EH/DHs. The Mirage 2000EH/DHs use the RDM-4/7, Super 530D, R-73E (w/o HMS), R-550 Mk.2, ARMAT, AS-30L, Paveway and BGL-1000.

American F-16s use the AIM-120 as a standard weapon, AIM-9M, AGM-65, AGM-88, JDAM and other goodies... so really USAF F-16Cs are more capable strikers and air combat planes due to ARH missiles and such...

Bill
25 Jun 05,, 17:00
The USAF also has 1,700+ F-16Cs.

So they're not just better, but there're a lot more of them.

raptor1992
26 Jun 05,, 07:17
so the mir 2000 is only better than F-16A. ohhhhhhhhh that explains everything

raptor1992
26 Jun 05,, 07:18
so i guess USAF would win but with high casaulties because IAF Su-30MKI are very powerful.

Officer of Engineers
26 Jun 05,, 19:57
Kinda hard to inflict casualties when you're bingo fuel and the USAF always got fresh birds in the air.

troung
26 Jun 05,, 22:49
so the mir 2000 is only better than F-16A. ohhhhhhhhh that explains everything

Depends on which F-16A and which Mirage 2000E.

RTAF F-16A/B-ADFs use the AIM-120 as do ROCAF F-16A/B B-20s, Dutch/Belgian/Danish/Nowergian/Portugese F-16A/B-MLUs. Those are different then say Pakistan's F-16A/B B-15s which only have the AIM-9P-4/L and R-550 Mk.2.

And then there are strike weapons and MLU-4s use the JDAM.

So it all depends.


so i guess USAF would win but with high casaulties because IAF Su-30MKI are very powerful.

No offense but you might just want to ask questions....

Blademaster
27 Jun 05,, 03:15
The USAF also has 1,700+ F-16Cs.

So they're not just better, but there're a lot more of them.

I wouldn't rely on that figure. Due to the constant stresses put on by many flying hours in OIF, no fly zone patrols, Aghanistan, the spare parts has kinda run low and they have run to the point where they had to cannibalize some F-16s to keep other F-16s. So I would say 1,200 F16s are flyable. Still that is more than the entire IAF.

raptor1992
27 Jun 05,, 07:29
well before we look at the loses we must look at how many planes each side can put up in the air. because if american F-15 outnumbered Su-30MKI 10:1 then F-15 definitely wins. but our ass would still be kicked because IAF is receiveing more Su-30MKIs although they maybe destroyed faster then they can be built.

Bill
27 Jun 05,, 07:43
This is the total number of F-16s by block being retired/sent to storage due to BRAC(these planes have not yet been transferred from their current active status so far as i know)
Retired - Reserve

Block 15ADF 15
Block 25 85
Block 30 30 6
Block 32 9
Block 40 11
Block 42 39
Block 50 18
Block 52 4
Total 178 39

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1369.html

That still leaves the F-16 figure at 1500+, with hundreds more F-15Cs and F-15Es, with about 60 or so F-117s for the USAF/USANG/USAFR alone.

Add in the USN/USMC and it's about another 1,000 F-18s of all makes, a couple hundred AV-8B II+, and a couple sqns of F-14Ds.

I reckon that's just way more combat power than the Indian Airforce could ever realistically deal with, SU-30MkIs or no.

highsea
27 Jun 05,, 08:29
Add to that the 250 or so ADF's in storage, and the 55 F/A-22's already built, with new ones coming off the line at 2 per month, soon to be 3 per month...

Of course, the B-2's and F-117's would take out India's airbases in the first 48 hours or so, and all those shiny SU-30's would be sitting ducks anyway.




Theoretically, of course... ;)

Bill
27 Jun 05,, 08:48
Oh i think if ODS was proof of anything it's that we're nowhere near good enough at shutting airbases down, then keeping them closed.

The Indian AF has a whole spitload of airfields(let alone highways), and over 1000 combat aircraft.

IMO it would be a pretty good fight for about a week to 10 days, followed by a rapid drop-off of IAF combat capability.

bull
27 Jun 05,, 11:38
Oh i think if ODS was proof of anything it's that we're nowhere near good enough at shutting airbases down, then keeping them closed.

The Indian AF has a whole spitload of airfields(let alone highways), and over 1000 combat aircraft.

IMO it would be a pretty good fight for about a week to 10 days, followed by a rapid drop-off of IAF combat capability.

More than 1000 AC in IAF is being too optimistic. The real figure might be around 800 out of which around 300 are MIG 21 upgarded.

MIRAGE 2000 H/TH - 49
MIG 21 Bison - 72
MIG 21 BIS - 97
MIG 21 M - 72
MIG 21 FL - 90
MIG 23 BN - 54
MIG 23 R - 18
MIG 27 ML - 117
MIG 29 - 54
JAGUAR - 140
SU -30MKI - 50


IL- 76 - 28
IL - 78(air refullers) - 2 ( More 6)
AN 32- 80
HS 788M - 32
DO - 41

As an indian myself,i cant even concieve a situation where india can hold onto an US air assault for more than 2 days.

Officer of Engineers
27 Jun 05,, 13:31
As an indian myself,i cant even concieve a situation where india can hold onto an US air assault for more than 2 days.

Point defence.

raptor1992
27 Jun 05,, 18:24
Add to that the 250 or so ADF's in storage, and the 55 F/A-22's already built, with new ones coming off the line at 2 per month, soon to be 3 per month...

F/A-22 would definitely whoop their butt but it's a 5th generation fighter and this is only about 4-4.5 generation fighter.

raptor1992
27 Jun 05,, 18:26
and sometimes when a MiG-29 was shot down it may just because the pilot had poor training and can't fly fighters as well as USAF pilots.

Bill
27 Jun 05,, 23:05
"SU -30MKI - 50 "

The MkI is the only SU-27 variant in IAF service?

raptor1992
27 Jun 05,, 23:30
no. they also have Su-30MK and Su-27SK i think and Mir-2000 and MiG-29.

raptor1992
27 Jun 05,, 23:33
they have ancient MiG-23s as well and some older jet. look like only Su-27 variants and MiG-29s are useful for IAF.

bull
28 Jun 05,, 07:27
they have ancient MiG-23s as well and some older jet. look like only Su-27 variants and MiG-29s are useful for IAF.

All the MIG variants(21 , 23 , 27) are upgraded version with the help of israeli and french kits.

The mirages and also the Jaguar are also very capable.Especially the Jaguars.They add upto more than 200.


They are very highly respected by the IAF.there is around 120 in service with another 80 or to be built by 2010

bull
28 Jun 05,, 07:28
"SU -30MKI - 50 "

The MkI is the only SU-27 variant in IAF service?


The only SU -27 variant is SU 30MKI.

They had taken delivery of 9 SU-30 MKK,but was send back to be upgraded to SU 30 MKI status.

troung
28 Jun 05,, 07:42
They had taken delivery of 9 SU-30 MKK,but was send back to be upgraded to SU 30 MKI status.

The Su-30MK-1s and Su-30Ks are still very much in service and flew to France for DACT. I wouldn't hold my breath on the upgrade to Su-30MKI status either.


no. they also have Su-30MK and Su-27SK i think and Mir-2000 and MiG-29.

Su-30MKI
Su-30MK-1
Su-30K
Mirage 2000EH/DH
MiG-29A/SE/UB

They have not one single seat Su-27s....

bull
28 Jun 05,, 08:01
The Su-30MK-1s and Su-30Ks are still very much in service and flew to France for DACT. I wouldn't hold my breath on the upgrade to Su-30MKI status either. ....

No one asked you to. :rolleyes:



Su-30MK-1

????

highsea
28 Jun 05,, 08:36
No one asked you to. :rolleyes: IIRC, they bagged the idea of upgrading due to high-time on the airframes. They decided to just replace them with new-builds instead.

????See B-R for the explanation of variants.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/index.html

bull
28 Jun 05,, 11:01
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/index.html

Highesea,
i had checked there and i posted i couldnt find MK -1 in IAF. :rolleyes:

ASG
28 Jun 05,, 14:11
Highesea,
i had checked there and i posted i couldnt find MK -1 in IAF. :rolleyes:


It is MKI.. wrong stated as MK -1.

hammer
28 Jun 05,, 16:52
It is MKI.. wrong stated as MK -1.

Actually there are four variants, the Su-30MK-I,II,III and the final batch of Su-30 MKI's.
Check this website. its a comprehensive site on the Sukhoi variants in IAF.IIRC most of them would be upgraded to the Su-30 MKI standard.

vayusena (http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html)

Jay
28 Jun 05,, 16:56
Last I heard, they cannot upgraded to be MKI's. Instead they are going to build new ones to compensate MK-1's.

highsea
28 Jun 05,, 17:30
Highesea,
i had checked there and i posted i couldnt find MK -1 in IAF. :rolleyes:
Don't know what to tell you....
Current versions in IAF service: MKI; Dual-seater, full multi-role capability.
..........................................MK-1; Dual-seater, long-range interceptor.
..........................................K; Dual-seater, limited multi-role capability.

Under the original deal signed, the first batch of eight aircraft (Standard Su-27Ks, also known as Su-30MK-Is) would be delivered in 1997 and would be used primarily for training purposes. The second batch of eight aircraft (Su-30MK-IIs) would be delivered in 1998 and would be fitted with Sextant Avionique's avionics from France, liquid crystal multi-function displays (MFDs), a new flight data recorder, a dual ring laser gyro INS (inertial navigation system) with embedded GPS (Global Positioning Satellite), EW (Electronic Warfare) equipment procured from Israel's IAI (Israeli Aircraft Industries), a new electro-optical targeting system and a RWR (Radar Warning Receiver). The third batch of twelve aircraft (Su-30MK-IIIs) would be delivered in 1999 and would feature canard fore-planes and the last twelve aircraft (Su-30MK-IVs, also known as Su-30MKIs) would be delivered in 2000 and would add the single-axis, thrust-vectoring AL-31FP turbofans. The first 32 aircraft delivered would then be upgraded to the Su-30MKI variant, in a phased manner.

The first deliveries of Su-30MK-1s arrived in kits at Lohegoan AFB in March 1997, where they were assembled and were formally inducted into the No.24 Squadron on 11 June 1997 by the then-incumbent Prime Minister, Inder Kumar Gujral. Ten Su-30K aircraft, which was originally destined for Indonesia, was delivered in November 1999. The Su-30Ks have updated electronic warfare suites, PGM (Precision Guided Munitions) capability and possibly updated radar. Sukhoi, as per contract, was supposed to deliver the next batch of eight (Su-30MK-IIs) aircraft in 1998. Delivery was however postponed, because only in March 1998 did the IAF specify the requirements for the advanced avionics and signed the agreements with the respective companies. The ordinate delays finally led to the decision to have all future deliveries of the aircraft in the full MKI standard. In mid-2002, ten Su-30MKI aircraft were finally delivered in completely-knocked down kits to Lohegaon AFS. These aircraft were formally inducted into the No.20 Squadron on 27 September 2002. Upgrades of the first 18 aircraft (eight Su-30MK-1 and 10 Su-30K) is to be conducted at one of HAL's facilities located across the country, expected to begin in 2003 and to be completed by 2004/05.
(From B-R link previously given)

As has already been mentioned, the last bit about the upgrading the early airframes seems to have been shelved in favor of new builds in MKI format.

bull
29 Jun 05,, 08:42
Don't know what to tell you....
(From B-R link previously given).

Embarassing....... :mad:

Lord General
17 Jul 05,, 06:24
Now this comparison I like!

uss
21 Jul 05,, 19:55
Don't know what to tell you....
(From B-R link previously given)

As has already been mentioned, the last bit about the upgrading the early airframes seems to have been shelved in favor of new builds in MKI format.

I think they changed their minds on that .... the upgrade is on. ACM tyagi just announced upgrade of Su 30 and MiG 29 "together".

http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/16/stories/2005071602361300.htm

The Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi, said the earlier Sukhoi-30 aircraft will be next in line for upgradation at HAL, along with the MiG-29s.

I wonder if that means it will come out as a SU 30MKI AND a MiG 29MKI :biggrin:

Really eager to find out the MiG29 upgrade details.

Regards,
USS.

cottage cheese
08 Aug 05,, 12:38
they have way more F 16s and F 15s than India has Su 30 MKI (140) and Mig 29(60). Our Mig 29's also arent as good as the latest versions of the F 15 and F 16.


Hey... what happened to the half a dozen or so Harriers we had? Are thay still flying? Haven't heard of them in years. Anyone know?

Yeah... well put up a big maritime front, man...against the USMC's several hundred Harriers and F18s (we're not even talking USAF here)... "never have so many owed so much to so few...." once they see our determined expressions they'll heave anchor and scoot. Oh yes don't forget the good old Alize(spelling?) - we'll sink their fleet man. They dont stand a chance....

Their carrier fleet? bah! we have our dorniers, avros and chetaks and hormones....and Sea Kings... now way they'll enter our waters. Let their tomcats, and stuff come... we'll give them the determined look.... man they're going to the bottom of the Indian ocean. Sea Kings are they still flying?

giggs88
08 Aug 05,, 14:58
i think the Indian Air Force would win


wow.

ajaybhutani
08 Aug 05,, 15:25
firstly i dont understand the reason behind creation of this thread and now i can understand why is it still alive.. there are better topic in air warfare

hello
08 Aug 05,, 16:07
Hey... what happened to the half a dozen or so Harriers we had? Are thay still flying? Haven't heard of them in years. Anyone know?

Yeah... well put up a big maritime front, man...against the USMC's several hundred Harriers and F18s (we're not even talking USAF here)... "never have so many owed so much to so few...." once they see our determined expressions they'll heave anchor and scoot. Oh yes don't forget the good old Alize(spelling?) - we'll sink their fleet man. They dont stand a chance....

Their carrier fleet? bah! we have our dorniers, avros and chetaks and hormones....and Sea Kings... now way they'll enter our waters. Let their tomcats, and stuff come... we'll give them the determined look.... man they're going to the bottom of the Indian ocean. Sea Kings are they still flying?

"Determined look"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In BVR maritime battles, the pilots/ship crews can't even see the enemy pilots/ship crews so how will they see the expressions on their faces? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

;)

hammer
08 Aug 05,, 17:29
"Determined look"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In BVR maritime battles, the pilots/ship crews can't even see the enemy pilots/ship crews so how will they see the expressions on their faces? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

;)

Hello,
I think he is being sarcastic.

cottage cheese
08 Aug 05,, 17:45
"Determined look"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In BVR maritime battles, the pilots/ship crews can't even see the enemy pilots/ship crews so how will they see the expressions on their faces? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

;)

Aww comeon!.... the US surely have the best and most powerful binocs and optics... what about the KH11 and stuff... they're a super power for heavens sakes...definitely we'll give 'em the face that'll sink a thousand ships! :)

By the way, I didn't realize it earlier , but this thread now qualifies for the Naval Warfare threads...

cottage cheese
08 Aug 05,, 17:56
Hello,
I think he is being sarcastic.

Hammer, any juice on what happened to those harriers? The last I saw of them was during Republic Day back in the later 80's .... they were demonstrating it during the beating the retreat... it hovered....it hovered....can you believe it? it hovered!! wow we are invincible man!

hammer
08 Aug 05,, 19:45
Hammer, any juice on what happened to those harriers?

The Indian Navy is in the process of upgrading upto 15 SeaHarriers with Israel by installing the Elta EL/M-2032 radar & the Rafael 'Derby' medium range air to air missile.



wow we are invincible man!

:biggrin: What got into you?

BTW here's a good link on IN Sea Harriers. INHarriers (http://www.acig.org/exclusives/aero/acig_aero05_harrier.htm)

Samudra
09 Aug 05,, 04:46
hovered....it hovered....can you believe it? it hovered!!

I was awe-struck when i saw the angel(s)* in Bang-galore.
And what of the finger Sir ? We wont the show the finger , you say ? ;)
Nowadays Uncle is telling us "Ever the best of friends , aint us ? " ;)

* Hammer , i meant the aircrafts.Honest.

cottage cheese
09 Aug 05,, 04:59
The Indian Navy is in the process of upgrading upto 15 SeaHarriers with Israel by installing the Elta EL/M-2032 radar & the Rafael 'Derby' medium range air to air missile.

15!!? .... The USMC/USN has no chance now.

Hammer , thanks for the update though... nice to know we can still hover.

hammer
09 Aug 05,, 07:31
I was awe-struck when i saw the angel(s)* in Bang-galore.

* Hammer , i meant the aircrafts.Honest.

*cough* *cough* Yeah, I know. Why don't you post the pics of those "angel(s)" that you and your friend clicked in Bangalore in the Multimedia forum? We sure would like to check out your photography skills. :biggrin:

hammer
09 Aug 05,, 08:23
15!!? .... The USMC/USN has no chance now.

:biggrin: . Yep, no chance at all.

hello
09 Aug 05,, 12:43
The Indian Navy is in the process of upgrading upto 15 SeaHarriers with Israel by installing the Elta EL/M-2032 radar & the Rafael 'Derby' medium range air to air missile.

15!!? .... The USMC/USN has no chance now.

Hammer , thanks for the update though... nice to know we can still hover.

They can hover too and stealthily(F-35B). 480 vs 15. Wow :rolleyes:

hello
09 Aug 05,, 12:43
Hello,
I think he is being sarcastic.

I am. :biggrin:

cottage cheese
09 Aug 05,, 13:07
They can hover too and stealthily(F-35B). 480 vs 15. Wow :rolleyes:

Only 480? Haven't the seen the steely determined look on our face? we have our cost- effective stealth technologies too. In overwhelming numbers too. All those vultures...crows...kites...No way the USN/USMC can come near us...they dont know bird hits the way we do...

Muahahahahah...besides, we'll train our pilots to snipe with the cannons (Are our harriers fitted with the Aden?)... on shot one kill...man... all head shots - No HUDs man ... just Ziess und Diavari 9X rifle scopes....we'll switch the cannons to single shot- 250 shots per cannon X 15 = 3750 rounds - 480 = 3270... imagine... send all 480 USN F35Bs to the bottom and still have 3270 rounds to spare. :)

cottage cheese
09 Aug 05,, 13:16
*cough* *cough* Yeah, I know. Why don't you post the pics of those "angel(s)" that you and your friend clicked in Bangalore in the Multimedia forum? We sure would like to check out your photography skills. :biggrin:

yeah Samudra... lets take a look :)

promise... I'm only going to look at Harriers :)

Samudra
10 Aug 05,, 04:33
Cottage Cheese , my friend Hammer is bent upon having my father throw me out of the house.

He has been giving me quite a number of innovative 'ideas' for the same since the time we knew each other.Like asking my father for half a million bucks.

The latest one is to open my secret vault at home to produce the images he now desperately seeks , at which time he shall have my father informed of it and then my father shall duly do the needfull. :rolleyes:

Its all a conspiracy hatched by someone inside Pakistan and pays Hammer to execute it. :biggrin:

cottage cheese
10 Aug 05,, 07:30
Cottage Cheese , my friend Hammer is bent upon having my father throw me out of the house.

He has been giving me quite a number of innovative 'ideas' for the same since the time we knew each other.Like asking my father for half a million bucks.

The latest one is to open my secret vault at home to produce the images he now desperately seeks , at which time he shall have my father informed of it and then my father shall duly do the needfull. :rolleyes:

Its all a conspiracy hatched by someone inside Pakistan and pays Hammer to execute it. :biggrin:

:biggrin: :biggrin:
You have my house to move into.... now lets take a look at those Harriers... ;)

hammer
10 Aug 05,, 07:36
Cottage Cheese , my friend Hammer is bent upon having my father throw me out of the house.

I am doing you a favour actually.Its time for you to get thrown out of the house.



Its all a conspiracy hatched by someone inside Pakistan and pays Hammer to execute it. :biggrin:

I will give you a hint. A*** A**** and N**. :biggrin:

Samudra
10 Aug 05,, 16:24
now lets take a look at those Harriers

I am afraid i did not have a high end camera - the display was quite far away, but i do have pictures that Hammer would like to see. ;)

Will post in the weekend.

cottage cheese
11 Aug 05,, 05:57
I am afraid i did not have a high end camera - the display was quite far away, but i do have pictures that Hammer would like to see. ;)

Will post in the weekend.

Yeah- now you're talking.... I've kept a room ready at my place - just in case your dad exiles you :)

Samudra
11 Aug 05,, 14:50
cottage cheese

thanks for the room , i have been always curious to see the NE !
So which state ?

annnnnnyways i thought I'm going to give you a sneak preview.
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5945/dsc000929mq.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc000929mq.jpg)

On second thoughts , i think i am giving you this preview alone !

hammer
11 Aug 05,, 17:23
On second thoughts , i think i am giving you this preview alone !

Check the warning sign to her left."Please Do Not Touch" :biggrin:

Samudra
11 Aug 05,, 17:28
You mean the aircrafts right ?

Yeah , they wont let us touch them..
Gawd , i could have had a nice...... ;)

longcat
11 Aug 05,, 23:02
USAF would win

cottage cheese
12 Aug 05,, 05:35
Check the warning sign to her left."Please Do Not Touch" :biggrin:

Good heavens!.... whats the weapon load of that thing? ;)

cottage cheese
12 Aug 05,, 05:37
USAF would win

Aww come on.... snap out of it... we have 15 Harriers.... the US has no hope. :)

Samudra
12 Aug 05,, 10:05
Good heavens!.... whats the weapon load of that thing?

Ask Hammer , he is the expert :biggrin:

cottage cheese
12 Aug 05,, 10:58
Ask Hammer , he is the expert :biggrin:

Hammer.... specifications please:

Dimensions
Weapon load
Size to weight ratio...etc. :biggrin:

ArjunMK1
16 Aug 05,, 17:18
US would surely win but with a bloody nose .

magic-spaceship
16 Aug 05,, 19:43
US would surely win but with a bloody nose .

What would the bloody nose be from? Laughing too hard? ;)

ArjunMK1
16 Aug 05,, 21:12
What would the bloody nose be from? Laughing too hard? ;)


More than hundred SU 30 MKI , 100 Mig 29s . And there are 100s of Mirages, Mig 21 upgrades , Mig 23,25,27s , Jaguar upgrades . And LCA in near future.
Also there are Falcon airborne AWACS and ground based Green Pines.

Stop laughing . It will be bloody nose with broken teeth !!!

highsea
16 Aug 05,, 23:14
Buncha bovine manure.

Hal can produce what? 10 SU-30's per year?
The 126 AC are still in limbo.
The LCA, well.... :rolleyes:

Keep wishin' Arjun- you guys are a long way from giving the US a bloody nose.

Adux
17 Aug 05,, 01:06
Buncha bovine manure.

Hal can produce what? 10 SU-30's per year?
The 126 AC are still in limbo.
The LCA, well.... :rolleyes:

Keep wishin' Arjun- you guys are a long way from giving the US a bloody nose.

high sea,

india got very good anti aircraft systems in place, they will definitly get a bloody nose, keep the american cockiness aside, atleast in the last 50 years india has fought with credible foes, the same cannot be said about most of US campigns. but as u said it will be just one punch, before the US rolls us over. we wont meet any objectives, but the us will have casualities thats for certain

Our country is third world, but our military mind you is not by any measure third rate.

Josh

highsea
17 Aug 05,, 02:21
It has nothing to do with cockiness, it's numbers and technology and logistics. The US has over 1500 of the world's best tactical aircraft, plus some 60 B-1B's, 21 B-2's, and 60 F-22's. And we have the ability to take that anywhere in the world and sustain it. We have all the supporting systems, AWACS, AEW, tankers, satellites, etc. We have the best trained air crews in the world. We have 12 CVBG's, each one fields an airwing that could take on the IAF by themselves.

Arjun makes a list of aircraft that India doesn't have, and says that will be used to give the US a bloody nose...That's cockiness. :rolleyes:

magic-spaceship
17 Aug 05,, 04:49
Who says we are going to be nice and fight fair? I have no disrespect for the Indian Air Force but lets be realistic - who says we are going to even let them get off the ground? Kind of hard to fly an airplane out of a airbase that has been visited by a B2 - F117 - F/A22 - or any of our cruise missles? Can we shut down every airbase - my guess is not - but we can very strongly hamper the IAF ability to conduct an Air Campaign with out ever having to face them in the air. Does this imply that the IAF is crappy or has bad pilots - no - it just shows the technological gap between the two air forces.

cottage cheese
17 Aug 05,, 04:55
What would the bloody nose be from? Laughing too hard? ;)

Our 15 harriers of course! :)

Samudra
17 Aug 05,, 05:05
Gawds sake , its the US !
and what would the US achieve by bombing us ?
Occupy us or liberate us ?

all this versus threads crap need to be locked !

brownboi4eva
17 Aug 05,, 05:12
hmm Highsea...i agree about most of your points but the best trained pilots in the world? you cant be serious....a LOT of other countries have excellently trained pilots

highsea
17 Aug 05,, 05:36
...a LOT of other countries have excellently trained pilotsYes they do, but nobody does it with the numbers of aircraft and and supporting assets like the US. And it's not just pilot training, it's AWACS, ground crews, pilots- everybody working together. It takes years and years to develop this, you can't get it by buying a few planes. It takes hard work and time.

When I talk about the best training, I am talking about the whole system, not just the pilot.

lemontree
17 Aug 05,, 10:51
Who says we are going to be nice and fight fair? I have no disrespect for the Indian Air Force but lets be realistic - who says we are going to even let them get off the ground? Kind of hard to fly an airplane out of a airbase that has been visited by a B2 - F117 - F/A22 - or any of our cruise missles? Can we shut down every airbase - my guess is not - but we can very strongly hamper the IAF ability to conduct an Air Campaign with out ever having to face them in the air. Does this imply that the IAF is crappy or has bad pilots - no - it just shows the technological gap between the two air forces.
Have'nt I asked you guys to leave out the USAF and other air assets out of an Indo-US war scenario? ;) ...and the navy too.
Just use the army... and NO AWACS. :tongue:

kargal
28 Aug 05,, 09:59
The American Girls are enough to knock down Indians Air Force. The cat getting out of cage after mouse.........Uncle Sam is the one who is supporting and booting up their economy... now they are showing eyes to American Air Force. Have you forgotton F-86 action, stay in you cage . You have threaten TAF,PAF,USAF, China, are you out of your mind. You: indian didn't said about Isreal Air Force. :biggrin:

hammer
28 Aug 05,, 18:39
The American Girls are enough to knock down Indians Air Force. The cat getting out of cage after mouse.........Uncle Sam is the one who is supporting and booting up their economy... now they are showing eyes to American Air Force. Have you forgotton F-86 action, stay in you cage . You have threaten TAF,PAF,USAF, China, are you out of your mind. You: indian didn't said about Isreal Air Force. :biggrin:

Can someone please translate this for me? Thanks.

babushree
28 Aug 05,, 18:48
what a buncha nuts.....
why would India confront USA when both join hands as strategic partners of this century? Are there are too many ***** on this forum "veiled" as Indians and tryin' to stir up the sh!t?
For all of ya *****!!!!
we are not going to islamicize USA, but join hands with USA and Israel to fight against "islamic terrorism".
war games and excercises or only held among "friendly" countries. ;)

kargal
28 Aug 05,, 20:15
high sea,

india got very good anti aircraft systems in place, they will definitly get a bloody nose, keep the american cockiness aside, atleast in the last 50 years india has fought with credible foes, the same cannot be said about most of US campigns. but as u said it will be just one punch, before the US rolls us over. we wont meet any objectives, but the us will have casualities thats for certain

Our country is third world, but our military mind you is not by any measure third rate.

Josh
************************************************** ***************
Indian always dreams how to USA #1 power should be knowked out , What was the result of Indian vs USA exercise. Indians activities are under watch,besides friendship. :biggrin:

kargal
28 Aug 05,, 20:25
Can someone please translate this for me? Thanks.


You didn't get it.....nicle head......................saying that ,The USA technology farahead than Indian.(1-10 ratio)

The fighter F-86 ......... called Sabber has record ........knocked down 5-6 superior
indian fighters.......

Now Indians are getting F-18 or F-22 ........Hhhhmmmmmmm....where they will use it....against ......TAF,PAF, I am sure not USA-Israel Air force...man it will be suicidal.

Oh yes let the Indian should get the trainning first. We will talk latter. :biggrin:

kargal
28 Aug 05,, 20:59
what a buncha nuts.....
why would India confront USA when both join hands as strategic partners of this century? Are there are too many ***** on this forum "veiled" as Indians and tryin' to stir up the sh!t?
For all of ya *****!!!!
we are not going to islamicize USA, but join hands with USA and Israel to fight against "islamic terrorism".
war games and excercises or only held among "friendly" countries. ;)

************************************************** *************
Indian, performed State terrorism from 1947 -1971, & in Punjab,known to all. THe USA & Pak are on the line, fighting against terrorism and Indian were not fit for this war. As a matter of fact, the Indian taught this kinds of act as being State terrorist. Yes, there is a diff between millitant/Mujahid vs Torrorist. Killing in Gujrat/Karachi, is another type of torrorism. Pakistan(non NATO) & USA will win at last. Killing your self or Satti or put fire on your self, is a part of terrorism & (Unhuman), which teaches a wrong act, All Indian has started this act, now crazy , Psycho are following it. Indian should be blamed for the terroism.
Musharraf is addressing Jewish lobby, dont worry, every thing will alright. Sleep tight. :biggrin:

kargal
28 Aug 05,, 21:02
You mean the aircrafts right ?

Yeah , they wont let us touch them..
Gawd , i could have had a nice...... ;)
"""HOT DOG""""" :redface:

DalerMehndi
28 Aug 05,, 22:05
kargal, go back to pakistanidefenceforum.com and learn english before making another post.

DalerMehndi
28 Aug 05,, 22:10
It has nothing to do with cockiness, it's numbers and technology and logistics. The US has over 1500 of the world's best tactical aircraft, plus some 60 B-1B's, 21 B-2's, and 60 F-22's. And we have the ability to take that anywhere in the world and sustain it. We have all the supporting systems, AWACS, AEW, tankers, satellites, etc. We have the best trained air crews in the world. We have 12 CVBG's, each one fields an airwing that could take on the IAF by themselves.

Arjun makes a list of aircraft that India doesn't have, and says that will be used to give the US a bloody nose...That's cockiness. :rolleyes:
Which aircraft on Arjuns list does India not have?

longcat
28 Aug 05,, 23:56
Does the IAF have SU-27s too?

DalerMehndi
29 Aug 05,, 03:43
No, only Su-30MKIs and a few Su-30MKs i think.

babushree
29 Aug 05,, 04:35
************************************************** *************
Indian, performed State terrorism from 1947 -1971
how pathetic is a *****_brain?
any terrorist activity today will lead to the root in pakistan. look thru the "darul harb" prism buddy, it is islam the root of terrorism and Pakiland is the hub. America has already started the crusade against islamic world and she needs pakistan "only" for its convenience. right now usa is running the show in pakistan. the whole country is wired thru "piesces" and sending the data back to washington. FBI is found everywhere in pakistan lets leave CIA alone for a moment to ensure that they zap its nuclear assets (chinaman suds) once musharaf falls.
why so much of this for non nato ally?
because the world sees every pakistani as a terrorist more than any other citizen of non islamic countries. every terror activity is hatched in pakistan
:redface:
in the last war in 1971, indian airforce had complete control of pakistani airspace after wiping out every plane in *****_posession.

babushree
29 Aug 05,, 04:41
Does the IAF have SU-27s too?
yeappppp!!!!
IAF has a fairly large number of SU-27. all have been upgraded with up-to-date avinionics thru Israel.

troung
29 Aug 05,, 05:09
in the last war in 1971, indian airforce had complete control of pakistani airspace after wiping out every plane in *****_posession.

Every plane?


every terror activity is hatched in pakistan

No way... wow...


how pathetic is a *****_brain? any terrorist activity today will lead to the root in pakistan. look thru the "darul harb" prism buddy, it is islam the root of terrorism and Pakiland is the hub

Out of bounds...


Are there are too many ***** on this forum "veiled" as Indians and tryin' to stir up the sh!t? For all of ya *****!!!!

Really out of bounds...

lemontree
29 Aug 05,, 06:24
yeappppp!!!!
IAF has a fairly large number of SU-27. all have been upgraded with up-to-date avinionics thru Israel.
BS, No Su-27, only the versions known as SU-MKI.

lemontree
29 Aug 05,, 06:28
The American Girls are enough to knock down Indians Air Force.
Forget it man with the stock of butter cookie our pilots have, those American girls would be dating them. :biggrin:

Have you forgotton F-86 action
Now look at my signature, that is Flt.Lt.Yunus Hussain's F-86 being SD by Flt.Lt.Neb's Hunter over Halwara.

babushree
30 Aug 05,, 00:52
Every plane?
yes sirry bob! ever plane of of PAF. we don't hit civilians unlike you islamic goons (out of bounds again :biggrin: ) where everyone competes to get 72 "mythological" virgins in the heavens. what a weird wackos?

DalerMehndi
30 Aug 05,, 06:33
like i said before, don't talk about something you don't know about. Also, if a pakistani says something bad, don't stoop down to his level in your reply. Reply in a decent and mature manner...people will actually respect you if you do that.

troung
30 Aug 05,, 06:46
yes sirry bob! ever plane of of PAF. we don't hit civilians unlike you islamic goons (out of bounds again ) where everyone competes to get 72 "mythological" virgins in the heavens. what a weird wackos?

Mods ban this guy on so many levels...

lemontree
30 Aug 05,, 06:51
Mods ban this guy on so many levels...
I second that.

Bill
30 Aug 05,, 06:55
"like i said before, don't talk about something you don't know about. Also, if a pakistani says something bad, don't stoop down to his level in your reply. Reply in a decent and mature manner...people will actually respect you if you do that."

Dehler you're new, so i'm gonna be nice.

Shut the fucck up. :)

brownboi4eva
30 Aug 05,, 08:49
LMAO - Sniper laying the smack down

DalerMehndi
30 Aug 05,, 23:43
"like i said before, don't talk about something you don't know about. Also, if a pakistani says something bad, don't stoop down to his level in your reply. Reply in a decent and mature manner...people will actually respect you if you do that."

Dehler you're new, so i'm gonna be nice.

Shut the fucck up. :)
???

Sameer
02 Sep 05,, 02:48
This is the dumbest thread ever created and hence deserves no respect. India is first of all no threat to the US, in fact the US admin wishes to use India as a counterweight to China and ties are increasing to fight Islamic terror.

iN the hypothetical case however, the USAF AS A FIGHTING FORCE, would destroy the IAF within one week assuming they put up a 1991 force level. It would be impossible for the US to ever invade India however as they would need too many troops, the IN would also end up at the bottomm of the sea as it would simply be overwhelmed with superior numbers. The IN and the IAF are good forces but cannot cope with the vast amount of US 4th gen fighters that outnumber IAF fighters or USN.

The IAF could hold its own vs 3-4 US carrier battle groups but not more and assuming the USAF and its assets stays out.

If however this was a war scenario in which an equal number of IAF fighters faught an equal number of 4th gen US fighters, then the IAF should do very well just like they have been doing in training exercises. Neither the IAF or the PLAAF can match up to the USAF or the US economy for another 40 years. India does not even want to compete with the US millitarily, besides democracies do not fight each other.

take this from an Indian.

cheers

!xobile
02 Sep 05,, 06:11
The thread should be IAF vs PLAAF...they atleast are likely to end up competing in the future. Lets change the topic to that actually. Right now, the IAF has a qualitative edge, but the PLAAF has a major quantitative edge. In the fighter category, the IAF has upgraded MiG-21 Bisons, MiG-20s, Mirage-2000s, Su-30MKs, and Su-30MKIs. The PLAAF has Su-27s and a bunch of MiG-21 based aircraft(liek the JF-17 and J-10). In the future, the PLAAF is going to be getting the J-XX and more of its other aircraft. The IAF will be getting the PAK-FA on the higher end and the LCA and some MCRA(either F-16, F-18, Mirage 2k5, or MiG35) on the lower end to fill up numbers. If the IAF and the PLAAF battle each otehr with an equal number of aircraft, i cna confidently say that hte IAF would win. Its aircraft, though fewer in nubmer, are much better and its aircraft are armed with better a2a missiles(R-27, R-77, Python 4). The IAF has also traiend against amny airforces around the world and it has experience with fighters taht are better than anything the PLAAF has(IAF has gone up against heavily upgraded Mirage-2k5s, F-15c and F-16s). Also, the IAF is getting AWACS and AEW aircraft very soon while the PLAAF is still trying to develop its own platform.

bull
02 Sep 05,, 15:54
"like i said before, don't talk about something you don't know about. Also, if a pakistani says something bad, don't stoop down to his level in your reply. Reply in a decent and mature manner...people will actually respect you if you do that."

Dehler you're new, so i'm gonna be nice.

Shut the fucck up. :)
Sniper,what was wrong with that???

Sameer
04 Sep 05,, 03:24
The thread should be IAF vs PLAAF...they atleast are likely to end up competing in the future. Lets change the topic to that actually. Right now, the IAF has a qualitative edge, but the PLAAF has a major quantitative edge. In the fighter category, the IAF has upgraded MiG-21 Bisons, MiG-20s, Mirage-2000s, Su-30MKs, and Su-30MKIs. The PLAAF has Su-27s and a bunch of MiG-21 based aircraft(liek the JF-17 and J-10). In the future, the PLAAF is going to be getting the J-XX and more of its other aircraft. The IAF will be getting the PAK-FA on the higher end and the LCA and some MCRA(either F-16, F-18, Mirage 2k5, or MiG35) on the lower end to fill up numbers. If the IAF and the PLAAF battle each otehr with an equal number of aircraft, i cna confidently say that hte IAF would win. Its aircraft, though fewer in nubmer, are much better and its aircraft are armed with better a2a missiles(R-27, R-77, Python 4). The IAF has also traiend against amny airforces around the world and it has experience with fighters taht are better than anything the PLAAF has(IAF has gone up against heavily upgraded Mirage-2k5s, F-15c and F-16s). Also, the IAF is getting AWACS and AEW aircraft very soon while the PLAAF is still trying to develop its own platform.

Well that is more complicated than you would think. The IAF is well trained but the PLAAF? We really do not know, for all we know, they could be amazing and also it depends how many top end fighters the PLAAF is willing to put up agaist the IAF, remember the PLAAF has the USN, Japanese Air force, Taiwanese AF etc etc to worry about.

mythbuster
04 Sep 05,, 20:03
1) there arent 55 f22s in sercice that number is the total build, not the operative ones , in operation there are arroun 30 raptors and are in pre-operative service

2)not all the f16 have amraams or are adpated to that, thats tipical for some fans, they see a falcon with amraams and they think that all planes have the missile, the f16 is mainly a bomber, its radar dont work for air superiority, but they can be linked with the f15s to do the job

3)the main weapon of the US isnt their f18-14-15-16-117, is the TOMAHAWK, now i dont know how india is defended against that , but you can deal easely against such missiles with ciws, i think that china and russia have ground mobile ciws

4) the f16c isnt a great dogfighter against the mig29, and the first 2 turns of the mirage 2000, also against these both fighters the americans are warned to fight above 5000 mts and 400 knots-almost always the dogfight heigh-speed, since the f16 dont have good performance at such altitud, but the M2k lose energy easely, so it have only 2 turns toi defeat the falcon, a dogfight combat is very probable in high ECM enviorement, remember that india isnt a small country and you cannot place bombers in the near countries , since they have nuke weapons, the thinks wont be so easy as in iraq

5)i dont know how good are the indians pilots, but its seems that are good enought

but in general the US could win if they can launch their tomahawks and india dont have defences against that, but there are other factors, the USAF will find hard to put some planes in the area ,forget to put in pakistan-like in saudi arabia in the iraq war-, so the main job is for the f18-14, not so good planes, the f18 cant fight against better heigh-kinetic plataforms like migs29-mirage2000, the f14 wont help much, since it have a pathetic radar with low aperture or discrimination and missiles that dont work against mobile targets, also remember that the indias have s300, stealth sams that can be placed in the enemy fighter rutes, playing in pasive mode.

tphuang
05 Sep 05,, 08:07
The thread should be IAF vs PLAAF...they atleast are likely to end up competing in the future. Lets change the topic to that actually. Right now, the IAF has a qualitative edge, but the PLAAF has a major quantitative edge. In the fighter category, the IAF has upgraded MiG-21 Bisons, MiG-20s, Mirage-2000s, Su-30MKs, and Su-30MKIs. The PLAAF has Su-27s and a bunch of MiG-21 based aircraft(liek the JF-17 and J-10). In the future, the PLAAF is going to be getting the J-XX and more of its other aircraft. The IAF will be getting the PAK-FA on the higher end and the LCA and some MCRA(either F-16, F-18, Mirage 2k5, or MiG35) on the lower end to fill up numbers. If the IAF and the PLAAF battle each otehr with an equal number of aircraft, i cna confidently say that hte IAF would win. Its aircraft, though fewer in nubmer, are much better and its aircraft are armed with better a2a missiles(R-27, R-77, Python 4). The IAF has also traiend against amny airforces around the world and it has experience with fighters taht are better than anything the PLAAF has(IAF has gone up against heavily upgraded Mirage-2k5s, F-15c and F-16s). Also, the IAF is getting AWACS and AEW aircraft very soon while the PLAAF is still trying to develop its own platform.
Okay, I can thank you for getting me to register with this forum. Your complete ignorance of PLAAF (and especially J-10) has forced me into action.

First of all, calling JF-17 and J-10 based on Mig-21 is completely ludicrous. The planes that are based on Mig-21 are J-8 and J-7. J-10 is based on the Lavi project and JF-17 is based on Mig-33.

Secondly, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions about J-10. One, it is fully operational and part of the air force. There are anywhere from 35 to 50 J-10s right now. J-10 will move into maximum production in the next while according to Kanwa (I'm guessing september or October), which means 4 new J-10s every month. The capability of J-10 is significantly underrated on this forum. Anyone who has followed J-10 would realize that J-10 is a far superior platform than su-27. In air to air combat between J-10 and su-27 and su-30mkk squadrons in China, J-10 totally owned su-27 and su-30mkk in all air to air combat. Between J-10 and su-27, I think the kill score was 5:0. This is quite surprising considering the fact that the su-27 squadron had far more experience than the J-10 pilots with their planes. The only category it lost in was air to ground attack to su-30mkk. You may have noticed that China has suspended the production license for su-27sk and stopped buying su-30mkk, mk2 and did not pursue when the Russians offered su-27skm and su-30mkk3. That's because the planes that the Russians were offering are inferior to J-10. Once the WS-10A project completes in the end of the year, these engines will likely be installed on J-10 to give it superior thrust ratio and power compared to the current AL-31FN engine. It's also likely that TVC nozzle will be added to these engines. SD-10/PL-12 is no slouch. You have to realize that China is replacing the Russian a2a missiles like R-27, R-73 and R-77 with PL-12 and PL-8, because the latter offered comparable or better performances.

As for JF-17, I'm not sure what it's real ability is, since it hasn't shown itself in any kind of military exercise or combat. I personally think plaaf doesn't need it and should get as many j-10s as it can get. Same with LCA, the project is labled by the Indian media as a waste of money. It still only has 4 prototypes and isn't going anywhere. IAF is placing a mamoth 20 plane order for it. And is choosing amongst foreign fighter jets again for that order of 126. Does that look like IAF has any kind of confidence in LCA? Be rational. Compare what China is doing with J-10 to what IAF is doing with LCA. Ask yourself how successful LCA really is?

In combat, J-8 and J-7 will most likely be going against Mig-21 bisons and Mig-23s. I personally think J-8 dominates Mig-23s and bisons, but that's just me, because I read a lot about the upgrades done to J-8, but not much about the IAF low level planes.

As for su-30mkk/mkk2 vs su-30mki, it depends on the time. As of now, China has 100 mkk/mkk2 vs 40 mki in IAF (also, not all the mki are upgraded to the final stage), so I think mkks can take the mkis on. In the future, it will definitely be J-10 vs mki. by the time you guys have a fleet of mkis and mig35s, J-10 will also be upgraded to the twin-engine version with dsi and better radar than it has now. I personally think it will be better than su-30mki and mig35s, just because J-10 already has shown itself against the 4th generation Russian planes. The twin engine J-10 is supposed to be similar in performance to Mig1.44.
http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports/2004/04fisher_report/7airforcesystems.htm

As for AWACs, I believe China is getting some A50 AWACS from Russia as well as developing AWAC on its own (although it's still under testing right now). I would say that the Phalcon system is superior though.

Any questions?

lemontree
05 Sep 05,, 09:06
In air to air combat between J-10 and su-27 and su-30mkk squadrons in China, J-10 totally owned su-27 and su-30mkk in all air to air combat.
Has J-10 been involved in any exercise carried out with other nations?

You may have noticed that China has suspended the production license for su-27sk and stopped buying su-30mkk, mk2 and did not pursue when the Russians offered su-27skm and su-30mkk3. That's because the planes that the Russians were offering are inferior to J-10.
They also happen to be inferior to the Su-30MKI models.

You have to realize that China is replacing the Russian a2a missiles like R-27, R-73 and R-77 with PL-12 and PL-8, because the latter offered comparable or better performances.
The PLAAF BVR missile is yet to see the light of day. The PL-8 is still a short range missile not BVR.

Compare what China is doing with J-10 to what IAF is doing with LCA. Ask yourself how successful LCA really is?

The J-10 is a LAVI copy with some ToT, while the LCA is made from scratch.

In combat, J-8 and J-7 will most likely be going against Mig-21 bisons and Mig-23s. I personally think J-8 dominates Mig-23s and bisons, but that's just me,
Then you need to update yourself. Most J-8s do not have BVR capability while all Bisons are BVR aircraft with helmet mounted sights which can "schlemm" enemy fighter like the Mig-29s in WVR combat. Only the J-8F/H have BVR capability. Besides the IAF is doing away with the Mig-23s, only the Mig-27 remain and these fly with escorts so those J-8s will have to face the escorts like the Mirage-2K, Mig-29, Su-30MKI or the Bisons.
In the 1999 Kargil war the PAF F-16s were flying CAP over Skardu and one of them got missile locked by a Mig-29 or Mirage-2k. The PAF stopped the F-16 CAPs and put in the Mirage-III/Vs (to save the F-16s). I am sure you understand the F-16 BlK 20/25 is many times better than the J-8.

Now you have'nt taken into consideration the airbases of PLAAF near India. They will be funtioning at extended ranges which gives very little time over the target area, which also means that there will be little fuel for dog fights. As for the airbases in Tibet - PLAAF has 14 major ones and a few tactical ones. The high altitude of the airbases precludes their effectiveness due to rarified atmosphere, which has to be countered by takeoff from lower altitutes further inland and by mid-air refueling over Tibet, provided IAF leaves those tankers alone. If the take off from Tibet, they will have to carry more fuel and less weapon loads.

indianguy4u
05 Sep 05,, 10:31
Where can one find the article of recent russian-chinese excercise? Pls post a link .

tphuang
05 Sep 05,, 16:41
Has J-10 been involved in any exercise carried out with other nations?

They also happen to be inferior to the Su-30MKI models.

The PLAAF BVR missile is yet to see the light of day. The PL-8 is still a short range missile not BVR.

The J-10 is a LAVI copy with some ToT, while the LCA is made from scratch.

Then you need to update yourself. Most J-8s do not have BVR capability while all Bisons are BVR aircraft with helmet mounted sights which can "schlemm" enemy fighter like the Mig-29s in WVR combat. Only the J-8F/H have BVR capability. Besides the IAF is doing away with the Mig-23s, only the Mig-27 remain and these fly with escorts so those J-8s will have to face the escorts like the Mirage-2K, Mig-29, Su-30MKI or the Bisons.
In the 1999 Kargil war the PAF F-16s were flying CAP over Skardu and one of them got missile locked by a Mig-29 or Mirage-2k. The PAF stopped the F-16 CAPs and put in the Mirage-III/Vs (to save the F-16s). I am sure you understand the F-16 BlK 20/25 is many times better than the J-8.

Now you have'nt taken into consideration the airbases of PLAAF near India. They will be funtioning at extended ranges which gives very little time over the target area, which also means that there will be little fuel for dog fights. As for the airbases in Tibet - PLAAF has 14 major ones and a few tactical ones. The high altitude of the airbases precludes their effectiveness due to rarified atmosphere, which has to be countered by takeoff from lower altitutes further inland and by mid-air refueling over Tibet, provided IAF leaves those tankers alone. If the take off from Tibet, they will have to carry more fuel and less weapon loads.

What does it matter if J-10 has been involved in military exercise with other nations or not? China doesn't want to disclose the full capability of J-10. In fact, the values listed on sinodefense is not correct at all if you read some Chinese sources. You should notice in the recent China-Russia military exercise, China intentionally hid its most advanced weapons like 052C, 054, yuan sub and J-10 and missiles like SD-10 and YJ-85.

As for SD-10, it's already finished testing and is equipped on J-10. Just because it has not seen battle action, that doesn't mean it's not good. So, we agree that some version of J-8 has BVR capability. We can pretty much agree on that mig-23 and J-7 will be cannon fodders (no matter what you say, having 1000 of them does have an effect). Can I get an approximate number of each type of planes you have (not counting the mig21 and 23)?

I have a feeling it's going to be 200 su-27/J-11 (btw, J-11 is about 30-40% better than su-27sk according to most Chinese sources) against mirage2000/su-27 of IAF. Some J-10 vs the Mig29A/B/C and remaining J-10 and su-30mkk/mk2 vs su-30mki. You can make your own judgement on which one is better. Since some of you think su-30mki is better than F-15C with AESA and F-16 block 50/52 is worse than Mig-29, I don't think any kind of argument would work on you.

I never said mkk or su-27 was better than mki. I just said if you think J-10 is rubbish, just check out some of its result. J-10 hasn't gone up again su-30mki, so I don't know how it will fare. Make no mistake, J-10 is China's best a2a fighter jet. And we are going to be making 50 of them a year.

As for Tankers, you obviously haven't heard. China is buying 30 IL-76 transports and 6 to 10 IL-78 tankers from Russia when the two sides meet later this month. They are expected to be delivered in 2 to 5 years. I wonder how many fully upgraded su-30mkis will India have by then. The way this is going, Russia will crack soon and actually offer something to China equal to the mkis.

Do you want to go through the attackers and bombers?

As for J-10 vs LCA, does it matter whether or not J-10 got some head start with Lavi? every plane gets some head start from other projects. The most important part is that J-10 is done and LCA is not.

tphuang
05 Sep 05,, 16:43
Where can one find the article of recent russian-chinese excercise? Pls post a link .
check some of the threads on china defense forum
http://www.china-defense.com/forum/index.php?showforum=13

indianguy4u
05 Sep 05,, 19:16
cant open huang (i have no id). Can u post the article here.

tphuang
05 Sep 05,, 20:28
there is a lot of articles, but I will just post some of the English ones then.

http://www.spacewar.com/2005/050828052516.74f3dujb.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20050831-113412-3370r.htm

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-08/27/content_3409567.htm

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050826/wl_nm/china_russia_dc_3

photo center
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/zhuanti/yanxi/index.html

a few points of summarY;
1. both sides agreed that the military exercise went really well and would like to have more in the future.
2. possible military exercise between Russia/China/India in the future and other SCO countries
3. China is committed to buying 30 IL-76MD transports and 6 to 10 IL-78 tanker. China is also interested in ToT and a production line for Tu-22M3 backfires and buying A50I AWACS from Russia. China's defense minister is visiting Russia this month and will probably sign on some deals.
4. Apparently, Russia wants to reverse the trend of past years and remove some of the tech restrictions it put on military export to China.

VayuSena
05 Sep 05,, 20:55
It would be good if a Russia-China-India axis could be formed. We would be unstoppable if that happened.

Anyway, if China does make those huge purchases of Il-76/78s and Tu-22M3s, India will definetly purchase something in response(i think it already has a lot of Il-76/78s and a decent number of Tu-22M3s though).

Officer of Engineers
06 Sep 05,, 01:59
It would be good if a Russia-China-India axis could be formed. We would be unstoppable if that happened.

When compared to the American centric formal Alliances? (NATO, NORAD, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, ANSUS, ABCA). Russia-China-India got a long way to go.

Hongkongfuey
06 Sep 05,, 03:40
PLaAF is way ahead of the IAF. You cannot talk about LCA as well. It's an average performing aircraft, probably equivalent or less than the JF-17 if you can compare the two, and not headed anywhere for production for another 10 years at least by which time the technology will be outdated. JF-17 will be inducted within a year in comparison with plenty of scope for upgrades. Another point is that the JF-17 is developed from the same era technology as the Mig-29, so you might expect it to be performing at a higher level than this.

tphuang
06 Sep 05,, 04:42
PLaAF is way ahead of the IAF. You cannot talk about LCA as well. It's an average performing aircraft, probably equivalent or less than the JF-17 if you can compare the two, and not headed anywhere for production for another 10 years at least by which time the technology will be outdated. JF-17 will be inducted within a year in comparison with plenty of scope for upgrades. Another point is that the JF-17 is developed from the same era technology as the Mig-29, so you might expect it to be performing at a higher level than this.
I'm not too sure of LCA's specs, but JF-17 specs are really not all that impressive. JF-17 in its original form is expected to have 70 to 80% of the capability of F-16A/B. Either way, it definitely seems to be progressing much smoother than LCA. It should be ready for mass production by 2007.

ajaybhutani
06 Sep 05,, 05:01
hmmm... ur post is quite informative though sources of your knowledge is what i doubt .
Lets starts from ur first sentence

PLaAF is way ahead of the IAF.
In what ways . ?? They ahve better aircraft better numbers or will win hands on in a war between india and china / are much better trained ? please be more specific about it ?


You cannot talk about LCA as well. It's an average performing aircraft, probably equivalent or less than the JF-17 if you can compare the two,

Please care to show your comparison ?? i would like to debate on that.. its surely not a good idea to close the discussion announcing your view as a final one.




Some news peices about LCA you might have missed.
1. the site for production has already been selected
2. three test planes are flying reguarly with 4 more to join tests in a year .
3. order for 40 has already been placed.



. JF-17 will be inducted within a year in comparison with plenty of scope for upgrades.

Oh well then with what features/capabilities ?? Please care to explain whats coming in this version produced within a year.



Another point is that the JF-17 is developed from the same era technology as the Mig-29, so you might expect it to be performing at a higher level than this.
Oh year but which version of Mig29 ?? For what i recall the latest one contains a 3D TVC apart from many more features.. :biggrin: :biggrin:

lemontree
06 Sep 05,, 07:42
PLaAF is way ahead of the IAF. You cannot talk about LCA as well. It's an average performing aircraft, probably equivalent or less than the JF-17 if you can compare the two, and not headed anywhere for production for another 10 years at least by which time the technology will be outdated. JF-17 will be inducted within a year in comparison with plenty of scope for upgrades. Another point is that the JF-17 is developed from the same era technology as the Mig-29, so you might expect it to be performing at a higher level than this.
Yeah the LCA sucks...happy now. ;) Move on.

lemontree
06 Sep 05,, 08:31
You should notice in the recent China-Russia military exercise, China intentionally hid its most advanced weapons like 052C, 054, yuan sub and J-10 and missiles like SD-10 and YJ-85.
Reports and discussions on the exercise it is learn't that the Russians fielded about 1500 personnel while PLA fielded about 10,000. Looks like they hid more 'things'.

As for SD-10, it's already finished testing and is equipped on J-10. Just because it has not seen battle action, that doesn't mean it's not good. So, we agree that some version of J-8 has BVR capability.
I never said that the SD-10 is ineffective, just that the world is not sure that it is ready yet or the PAF (Pak air force) would have been the first ones to brag about it.

Can I get an approximate number of each type of planes you have (not counting the mig21 and 23)?
Its not the numbers that you have, but what damage they can inflict in a given theater of operations. We are counting on the fact that PLAAF will not pull out all their high performance ac regiments/ sqdns away from their eastern coast to deploy them against the IAF.
PLAAF inventory- Aircraft 2950

J-11 (Wpns) AA-11(Qty)48 range - fighter1500 attack? 1000
J-8 (Wpns)PL-2/PL-7/PL-9 (Qty)150 range - fighter 800 attack? 550
J-7 (wpns)PL-2 / PL-7 (Qty)500 range - fighter600-850 attack 400-550
J-6 (Wpn)PL-1 / PL-2 (Qty)1800 range - fighter 685 attack?450
Q-5 (won) -NA- (Qty) 450 range - attack 400-600

You think the above PLAAF inventory and their ranges can make a dent in the IAF.

Some J-10 vs the Mig29A/B/C and remaining J-10 and su-30mkk/mk2 vs su-30mki. You can make your own judgement on which one is better. Since some of you think su-30mki is better than F-15C with AESA and F-16 block 50/52 is worse than Mig-29, I don't think any kind of argument would work on you.
I am not thick headed :) I can understand the performance aspects of aircraft if explained.

I just said if you think J-10 is rubbish, just check out some of its result. J-10 hasn't gone up again su-30mki, so I don't know how it will fare. Make no mistake, J-10 is China's best a2a fighter jet. And we are going to be making 50 of them a year.
You can excuse the lack of enthusiasim since most of the J-6/J-7/J-8 were just modified Mig-19/21s. Its capabilities will remain a mystery till it shows its punch.

As for Tankers, you obviously haven't heard. China is buying 30 IL-76 transports and 6 to 10 IL-78 tankers from Russia when the two sides meet later this month. They are expected to be delivered in 2 to 5 years. I wonder how many fully upgraded su-30mkis will India have by then. The way this is going, Russia will crack soon and actually offer something to China equal to the mkis.

Do you want to go through the attackers and bombers?
You have to understand the problems faced by the PLAAF in Tibet. For one the aircraft pens on the current airfields make the PLAAF fighter sitting ducks to air-raids. See the open ac pens of the airfields in Suzhou, Xingning, Fuzhou and Nanchang-Xangtang.


As for J-10 vs LCA, does it matter whether or not J-10 got some head start with Lavi? every plane gets some head start from other projects. The most important part is that J-10 is done and LCA is not.
Has the engine been decided for the J-10?

tphuang
06 Sep 05,, 13:35
Reports and discussions on the exercise it is learn't that the Russians fielded about 1500 personnel while PLA fielded about 10,000. Looks like they hid more 'things'.

I never said that the SD-10 is ineffective, just that the world is not sure that it is ready yet or the PAF (Pak air force) would have been the first ones to brag about it.

Its not the numbers that you have, but what damage they can inflict in a given theater of operations. We are counting on the fact that PLAAF will not pull out all their high performance ac regiments/ sqdns away from their eastern coast to deploy them against the IAF.
PLAAF inventory- Aircraft 2950

J-11 (Wpns) AA-11(Qty)48 range - fighter1500 attack? 1000
J-8 (Wpns)PL-2/PL-7/PL-9 (Qty)150 range - fighter 800 attack? 550
J-7 (wpns)PL-2 / PL-7 (Qty)500 range - fighter600-850 attack 400-550
J-6 (Wpn)PL-1 / PL-2 (Qty)1800 range - fighter 685 attack?450
Q-5 (won) -NA- (Qty) 450 range - attack 400-600

You think the above PLAAF inventory and their ranges can make a dent in the IAF.

I am not thick headed :) I can understand the performance aspects of aircraft if explained.

You can excuse the lack of enthusiasim since most of the J-6/J-7/J-8 were just modified Mig-19/21s. Its capabilities will remain a mystery till it shows its punch.

You have to understand the problems faced by the PLAAF in Tibet. For one the aircraft pens on the current airfields make the PLAAF fighter sitting ducks to air-raids. See the open ac pens of the airfields in Suzhou, Xingning, Fuzhou and Nanchang-Xangtang.


Has the engine been decided for the J-10?

PAF probably won't get the SD-10s until they get the first 50 JF-17s (so, 2007). I don't really think India will go to war against China again, so all of these comparisons are just based on hypothetical arguments around the quantity/quality of the ACs. I personally do think it helps to have a lot of cannon fodders. It distracts enemy from the main force. But yeah, China definitely would not pull its most advanced ACs from Taiwan strait. It will probably send over a bunch of its latest J8IIs.

As for J-10, if you do read over more articles on it, you would realize it's quite a fine plane and has excellent potential. In fact, its experience is already helping China in developing it's 4.5 generation aircraft.

As for the engine, they are using AL-31FN for probably at least the first 100 J-10s. Maybe more, China would like to use WS-10A, but that engine probably won't start production until early next year. Even then, J-10 will have to fight for the engine with J-11B. Since SAC (producers of J-11B) have better connection with PLAAF, they might get more of WS-10As. I'm not sure whether WS-10As have the TVC nozzle yet, but in the near future, it will have it, since China already showed that it has developed TVC nozzles. It would be stupid to not put it on your best jet engine.

Hongkongfuey
07 Sep 05,, 02:12
I'm not too sure of LCA's specs, but JF-17 specs are really not all that impressive. JF-17 in its original form is expected to have 70 to 80% of the capability of F-16A/B. Either way, it definitely seems to be progressing much smoother than LCA. It should be ready for mass production by 2007.

Cant find all the specs for the JF-17 either. But JF-17 is considered to be 70% as manoeverable as the F-16 (not sure which block, but probably original designs of each), however, it has a high climb rate which allows it to intercept fourth generation fighters. I have read its airframe is third generation but again, its airframe is supposedly based on the product 33 design of the eighties from the same era as the modern day Mig-29 which should make it fourth generation at least. It's certainly a fourth generation fighter, a bit lacking on top speed, but for interception it's not required. F-16s have a better payload than the JF-17 though. I dont think LCA has would have the same climb rate for interception as the JF-17.

Hongkongfuey
07 Sep 05,, 04:13
SD-10s are probably already with the PAF if it's a co-development with China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD-10

SD-10 is the official armament of the JF-17
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder

Jay
07 Sep 05,, 07:53
Cant find all the specs for the JF-17 either.
Yeah, becoz the fighter is still being tested.


But JF-17 is considered to be 70% as manoeverable as the F-16 (not sure which block, but probably original designs of each),
70%...this is ridiculous. How do you calculate 70%?? does JF-17 has 70% turn radius or turn rate??


however, it has a high climb rate which allows it to intercept fourth generation fighters.
F-16, at the min has a initial climb rate of about 50000 ft (15239 m) / min, you think a JF-17 can outrun this, given the fact that JF-17 climb rates are still unknown?? Though we have thrust to weight ratio (>=0.9, gotta believe what the Chinese say), when you toss in fuel and a load of armamments, I dont get a pretty picture.


I have read its airframe is third generation but again, its airframe is supposedly based on the product 33 design of the eighties from the same era as the modern day Mig-29 which should make it fourth generation at least.
If we go by your popular source, it still says 3rd Gen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-9

BTW, Airframe isnt the only paramater to classify a plane's generation. JF-17 avionics, less said is better.


I dont think LCA has would have the same climb rate for interception as the JF-17.
Why not? Even before Tejas gets an engine, how can you decide that Tejas will not have a climb rate similar to JF-17?

Hongkongfuey
07 Sep 05,, 08:53
Yeah, becoz the fighter is still being tested.


70%...this is ridiculous. How do you calculate 70%?? does JF-17 has 70% turn radius or turn rate??


F-16, at the min has a initial climb rate of about 50000 ft (15239 m) / min, you think a JF-17 can outrun this, given the fact that JF-17 climb rates are still unknown?? Though we have thrust to weight ratio (>=0.9, gotta believe what the Chinese say), when you toss in fuel and a load of armamments, I dont get a pretty picture.


If we go by your popular source, it still says 3rd Gen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-9

BTW, Airframe isnt the only paramater to classify a plane's generation. JF-17 avionics, less said is better.


Why not? Even before Tejas gets an engine, how can you decide that Tejas will not have a climb rate similar to JF-17?

Although, its overall maneuverability is 70% that of the F-16 Falcon but its high climb rate makes the aircraft able to challenge early fourth generation fighters
http://www.defencetalk.com/air_systems/fighters/fc-1_jf-17_thunder_4.html

The climb rate and turn rate of the JF-17 is enhanced by the position of the wings way behind the canopy. The LCA is a small aircraft so the wings arent going to be as far back behind the canopy.

Avionics of the JF-17 are supposedly pretty good actually.
Fire-control radar Italian FIAR Grifo S-7
Navigation system GPS system
Other Head up display (HUD), infra-red search-and-track system, night-vision goggle capability and a digital dual Fly by wire (FBW).

JF-17 is a fourth generation fighter according to this


The JF-17 (Joint Fighter-17), aka "Thunder" is a Single Seat Multirole Day/Night fourth generation fighter aircraft and will be inducted into the Pakistan Air Force and Chinese Air Force (the PLAAF) in 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder

Jay
07 Sep 05,, 11:51
Although, its overall maneuverability is 70% that of the F-16 Falcon but its high climb rate makes the aircraft able to challenge early fourth generation fighters
It depends on how they classify fighters. One such classification says F-16 A/B are 3rd Gen. In a simple world, do you think JF-17 will be able to outrun a F-16 A/B or may be a Mirage 2000??


The climb rate and turn rate of the JF-17 is enhanced by the position of the wings way behind the canopy. The LCA is a small aircraft so the wings arent going to be as far back behind the canopy.
That doesnt mean that you can climb and outrunt he rest of the aircrafts. Fuel load, dry weight, load with full weapons, Thrust to Weight ratio are directly responsible for higher climb rate. And I dont think JF-17 has a TWR more than 1.


Avionics of the JF-17 are supposedly pretty good actually.
Fire-control radar Italian FIAR Grifo S-7
Navigation system GPS system
Other Head up display (HUD), infra-red search-and-track system, night-vision goggle capability and a digital dual Fly by wire (FBW).
Is it a joke or for real? Those are basic avionics for any fighter jet. It pales when compared with LCA's avinoics that are already integrated and tested.

Check this out...
Flight Control - Digital quadruplex redundant architecture

Cockpit environment - 3x 5x5 inch and 2x 3x3 MFDs/SSDUs, displays for comm. and nav., HOTAS and VTAS (voice), HUD with UFCP, centralised warning, mission planning and retreival unit, FCP for emergency flight control, HMS (Elbit's JHMCS tech), digital video recording (DVR).

Core avionics features - Sensor fusion with Power PC/VME 64 core avionics computer, digital weapons systems management with front end weapons management computer (32 bit,single chip,dual redundant arch), digital pylon interface boxes. 5x MiL-STD-1553B avionics and weapons databuses with fibre optic databus in development.

Comm and Nav. - RCI Ring lase gyro based INS with GPS/GLONASS correction. Comm system in V/UHF with Frequency hopping, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum technology and Secrecy. High speed multi-point air-to-air air-to-ground datalink.

Self-protection - Tarang HADF Mk.II 4th gen RHAWS, Internal solid state software intensive jammer with the ability to capture unknown emissions for later exploitation and analysis and internal CMDS. The system can also cue the pilot to initiate additional evasive maneuvers while working in automatic conjunction with ECM/CMDS action.

Sensors - MMR Radar (By spec, this seems better than the Zhuk-M but both of them are not phased arrays like the RBE-2) DSP and Radar computer.

Others: Elta Litening-II LDP, IRST, FADEC for engine control etc etc.


JF-17 is a fourth generation fighter according to this
With a 3rd gen airframe (J-9) and a mix of analog and digital avionics is defintely not 4th Gen.

Hongkongfuey
07 Sep 05,, 12:59
It depends on how they classify fighters. One such classification says F-16 A/B are 3rd Gen. In a simple world, do you think JF-17 will be able to outrun a F-16 A/B or may be a Mirage 2000??


That doesnt mean that you can climb and outrunt he rest of the aircrafts. Fuel load, dry weight, load with full weapons, Thrust to Weight ratio are directly responsible for higher climb rate. And I dont think JF-17 has a TWR more than 1.


Is it a joke or for real? Those are basic avionics for any fighter jet. It pales when compared with LCA's avinoics that are already integrated and tested.

Check this out...
Flight Control - Digital quadruplex redundant architecture

Cockpit environment - 3x 5x5 inch and 2x 3x3 MFDs/SSDUs, displays for comm. and nav., HOTAS and VTAS (voice), HUD with UFCP, centralised warning, mission planning and retreival unit, FCP for emergency flight control, HMS (Elbit's JHMCS tech), digital video recording (DVR).

Core avionics features - Sensor fusion with Power PC/VME 64 core avionics computer, digital weapons systems management with front end weapons management computer (32 bit,single chip,dual redundant arch), digital pylon interface boxes. 5x MiL-STD-1553B avionics and weapons databuses with fibre optic databus in development.

Comm and Nav. - RCI Ring lase gyro based INS with GPS/GLONASS correction. Comm system in V/UHF with Frequency hopping, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum technology and Secrecy. High speed multi-point air-to-air air-to-ground datalink.

Self-protection - Tarang HADF Mk.II 4th gen RHAWS, Internal solid state software intensive jammer with the ability to capture unknown emissions for later exploitation and analysis and internal CMDS. The system can also cue the pilot to initiate additional evasive maneuvers while working in automatic conjunction with ECM/CMDS action.

Sensors - MMR Radar (By spec, this seems better than the Zhuk-M but both of them are not phased arrays like the RBE-2) DSP and Radar computer.

Others: Elta Litening-II LDP, IRST, FADEC for engine control etc etc.


With a 3rd gen airframe (J-9) and a mix of analog and digital avionics is defintely not 4th Gen.

A lot of those avionics you've bunched up are in the JF-17, but here it says the LCA doesnt have as good avionics as the JF-17



The aircraft is being considered as a match for the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is expected to form the backbone of the Indian Air Force in future. There are, however, some features like advanced and futuristic avionics and cost effectiveness that give the JF-17 an edge over the LCA. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/fc-1.htm

ajaybhutani
07 Sep 05,, 13:25
A lot of those avionics you've bunched up are in the JF-17, but here it says the LCA doesnt have as good avionics as the JF-17
name a single avionic planned in JF17 thats better than its counterpart in LCA. ?? Its all speculation fed by pakistani sources to show the public that they are getting comparable stuff to india.

Jay
07 Sep 05,, 13:41
A lot of those avionics you've bunched up are in the JF-17, but here it says the LCA doesnt have as good avionics as the JF-17
What are you talking about? JF-17 has Quad digital FBW? IRST? HMS?? FADEC??

I dont think so ;)

Jay
07 Sep 05,, 13:47
From your source,


This machine has used the advanced air operated contour and the big thrust force, the low consumption turbofan engine, as well as the advanced digital fax flies controls the system, the integrated aviation electron and the armament system, has in the launch to be apart from the ball, to realize the multi- goals beyond line of sight attack ability, has many kinds of advanced precise function and so on navigation, battlefield situation sensation, target detection and recognition, operational attack as well as electronic warfare.

Because has used the contemporary advanced design and the manufacture technology, the owlet dragon/FC-1 airplane had achieved the third generation fighter aircraft synthesis fighting efficiency, can contend with with now the advanced fighter aircraft, simultaneously has the low cost the characteristic, completely adapts the modern warfare request and the military airplane market demand.

Thats a piece of garbage written over there. some one from global security used a poor chinese lang converter.

Regardless, we have been seeing lots of news reports leaked from China/Pakistan about JF-17's avionics and so far none of them are advanced or ground breaking as you claimed.

If you have any other info about avionics, share with us. Until then, I will continue to say that JF-17 at the most has a late 3rd gen fighter capability.

dabrownguy
07 Sep 05,, 17:51
forum. Anyone who has followed J-10 would realize that J-10 is a far superior platform than su-27. In air to air combat between J-10 and su-27 and su-30mkk squadrons in China, J-10 totally owned su-27 and su-30mkk in all air to air combat. Between J-10 and su-27, I think the kill score was 5:0.
Thats crap. The Typhoon only has a 5:1 kill ratio against a Su-35 and the Raptor had 10:1. Considering the Typhoon to be 5 gen and it has a 5:1 kill ratio against teh Su-35 which is supererior to the Su-27. Hmmm. Somthing is wrong. BTW 5:0 is like not a kill ratio since the J-10 didn't loose. You made that up.

That's because the planes that the Russians were offering are inferior to J-10.
No thats because PLAAF are pushing for more Russian stuff. Ever heard of bargaining?

As for JF-17, I'm not sure what it's real ability is, since it hasn't shown itself in any kind of military exercise or combat. I personally think plaaf doesn't need it and should get as many j-10s as it can get. Same with LCA, the project is labled by the Indian media as a waste of money. It still only has 4 prototypes and isn't going anywhere. IAF is placing a mamoth 20 plane order for it. And is choosing amongst foreign fighter jets again for that order of 126. Does that look like IAF has any kind of confidence in LCA? Be rational. Compare what China is doing with J-10 to what IAF is doing with LCA. Ask yourself how successful LCA really is?
You be rational. Don't you know how India buys Indian stuff? In batches. The 20 ordered will be for operational and tactical development with an American engine. Considering the requirements for the IAF they are gonna need a lot more than 124+190!

In combat, J-8 and J-7 will most likely be going against Mig-21 bisons and Mig-23s. I personally think J-8 dominates Mig-23s and bisons, but that's just me, because I read a lot about the upgrades done to J-8, but not much about the IAF low level planes.
Thats you cause your an idoit. The Bison is superior to the J-8 and J-7. It has better EW system and are R-77 capable. What can the J-8 do?

As for su-30mkk/mkk2 vs su-30mki, it depends on the time. As of now, China has 100 mkk/mkk2 vs 40 mki in IAF (also, not all the mki are upgraded to the final stage), so I think mkks can take the mkis on. In the future, it will definitely be J-10 vs mki
We know nothing of the J-10 besides you making crap up. Were is your source? Do we have to believe you?
Your right about the MKI not being in the final upgrade. The current version is supperior to the MKK2 the later versions will have AESA!

by the time you guys have a fleet of mkis and mig35s, J-10 will also be upgraded to the twin-engine version with dsi and better radar than it has now. I personally think it will be better than su-30mki and mig35s, just because J-10 already has shown itself against the 4th generation Russian planes. The twin engine J-10 is supposed to be similar in performance to Mig1.44.
Ha. That is some serious dumbness. J-10 has not internal weapons bay and is a single engined figher. 2 engines would require a completely new jet. Hence this is the reason China is developing the J-12. BTW the J-10 hasn't shown it's self. If J-10 is such a success why is China developing the Mighty Thundar? :biggrin:
Like everyone pointed out the IAF missile inventory is superior to the PLAAF.

ou should notice in the recent China-Russia military exercise, China intentionally hid its most advanced weapons like 052C, 054, yuan sub and J-10 and missiles like SD-10 and YJ-85.
Do you know that Chinese sources are the same ones making all those CG fantasy images and PSing the pictures to make it look cooler. Are you one of them?

I have a feeling it's going to be 200 su-27/J-11 (btw, J-11 is about 30-40% better than su-27sk according to most Chinese sources) against mirage2000/su-27 of IAF
How? Can it carry more missiles? Does it have the range of the agility? I doubt it.

. The way this is going, Russia will crack soon and actually offer something to China equal to the mkis.
Yea the Su-35. But even thats not on PAR with the MKI.

As for J-10 vs LCA, does it matter whether or not J-10 got some head start with Lavi? every plane gets some head start from other projects. The most important part is that J-10 is done and LCA is not.

Not true. THe ones in service are not complete. Fully complete J-10 will have IRST inflight refueling.

Do you want to go through the attackers and bombers?
Yes.

Considering that the FC-1's avonics are not enough for the PAF which are actually using a forign radar. Why is the FC-1 can't share it's avonics from the J-10?

tphuang
08 Sep 05,, 03:14
Thats crap. The Typhoon only has a 5:1 kill ratio against a Su-35 and the Raptor had 10:1. Considering the Typhoon to be 5 gen and it has a 5:1 kill ratio against teh Su-35 which is supererior to the Su-27. Hmmm. Somthing is wrong. BTW 5:0 is like not a kill ratio since the J-10 didn't loose. You made that up.

Go to any Chinese web site and read it up. It's widely posted in China. You can choose to believe it or not. And it's against su-27, not su-35. J-10 wouldn't be able to beat su-35. If you can read Chinese, I'd direct you to all a site that reports this. Then again, you still probably would not believe it until you see with your eyes. And read up on the specs of J-10 sometimes, and then you'd probably see that it has far superior stats than su-27. Including speed, g, T/W ratio, hard points and avionics. I'm not comparing it to su-35 or su-30mki, those have far better radar and improved plane structure versus su-27 and su-30mkk.



No thats because PLAAF are pushing for more Russian stuff. Ever heard of bargaining?

Wow, you really are BSing now. If there is one thing China needs, that is new and better weapons really fast. Because of the Taiwan situation, China decided to go ahead with mass production of J-10 despite the fact that the engine made for it (WS-10A) was not even ready. As a result, they had to buy a lot of AL-31FN. Because of Taiwan, China bought the mkk, because they would get delivered faster. All this is because China wants the balance tilted to the point that Taiwan would not declare independence before 2008 (because of Olympics/Taiwanese election). Time is not on China's side. Look at the buying spree that China had in the past few years. They are about to buy even more IL-76, Il-78 and Tu-22M3s from Russia. The only thing they are not getting is su-30mkk. If su-27/su-30mkk were better, China would not be suspending one contract and not buying the other.



You be rational. Don't you know how India buys Indian stuff? In batches. The 20 ordered will be for operational and tactical development with an American engine. Considering the requirements for the IAF they are gonna need a lot more than 124+190!

No, I don't. I'm not Indian. If they are going to buy more, then good for them. I thought I read a lot of people who said that Indian media is calling LCA a waste of money. Considering you guys only four prototypes out after all these years, I can see why.



Thats you cause your an idoit. The Bison is superior to the J-8 and J-7. It has better EW system and are R-77 capable. What can the J-8 do?

Right, I'm an idiot. Yet, you can't even spell the word correctly. Nice one.

top speed mach2.2, g limit 6.9, equipped with SD-10 and a radar that's good enough to use it, so it has BVR capability. I don't know exact radar of KLJ-1, but it has to be better than Zhuk-8II (70KM detection forward and 40KM detection backward), because it replaced it. So, what are the numbers on the radar of bison?



We know nothing of the J-10 besides you making crap up. Were is your source? Do we have to believe you?

No you don't. But judge by yourself, read what China is doing and the effort it puts behind J-10, judge for yourself. As I said, I can give you a lot of sites, but they are in Chinese.



Your right about the MKI not being in the final upgrade. The current version is supperior to the MKK2 the later versions will have AESA!

I never said that MKI is not better than MK2 or that the later versions would not be good. I'm very impressed by su-30MKI, that's why I think China should try to get su-35 to match it.



Ha. That is some serious dumbness. J-10 has not internal weapons bay and is a single engined figher. 2 engines would require a completely new jet. Hence this is the reason China is developing the J-12. BTW the J-10 hasn't shown it's self. If J-10 is such a success why is China developing the Mighty Thundar? :biggrin:
Like everyone pointed out the IAF missile inventory is superior to the PLAAF.

that's why it's going to take a little longer to develop the double engined J-10. But then again, you guys won't be finished with su-30mkis until 2015. They are getting a lot of help from the Mig1.44 project. Yeah, there are competing next generation jets in China, the double engined and stealthy J-10 and the J-XX project. I would be laughing if one of those two finishes ahead of LCA. JF-17 is a piece of garbage. We are doing it for two reasons:
1. help out Pakistan
2. to replace the low end planes, because it is much cheaper than J-10.
Personally, many Chinese don't even think we should buy any JF-17. As for J-12, it's goal is to be as good as F-22 (although that won't happen), but that's it's goal. It's trying to be a fifth generation plane.



Do you know that Chinese sources are the same ones making all those CG fantasy images and PSing the pictures to make it look cooler. Are you one of them?

No, I'm not. I'm insulted that you would even go that low.



How? Can it carry more missiles? Does it have the range of the agility? I doubt it.

Do a google search, even the Sukhoi officials admitted that the most recently produced J-11s are better than the original su-27. Reason is that China is equipping it with better radar (not as good as KLJ-3, but still better than the original Russian ones). Also, China is fully indigenizing the J-11, so the structure of the plane is slightly changed to be more like su-30mkk. Even so, it's still garbage, but then again, so are su-27/mirage2000. You can see I don't have much respect for earlier models of su-27 and mig-29.



Yea the Su-35. But even thats not on PAR with the MKI.

Things look good for mki, but the su-35 is not really in production, so we don't know what it's really going to be like.



Not true. THe ones in service are not complete. Fully complete J-10 will have IRST inflight refueling.

There is this thing called upgrade. You may notice that su-30mkis haven't achieved their full potentials either. In fact, J-10 is not going to stop upgrading anytime soon. New radar is getting developed for it. WS-10A should make it better. Hopefully, China will actually be smart enough to put some long range AAMs on it. As for J-10, it's in service, there are multiple squadrons of J-10s in service right now. Think about it, we already have almost 50 of them.



Yes.

Considering that the FC-1's avonics are not enough for the PAF which are actually using a forign radar. Why is the FC-1 can't share it's avonics from the J-10?
bombers, China is getting TU-22M3 (they are old, but it's still good to have them). JH-7A is claimed by many to be as good as su-30mkk for attacking missions. Also, su-30mk2 is good for naval attacking missions.

As for FC-1, the first 50 avionics delivered to FC-1 will be using Chinese Avionics. We know that the radars put on FC-1 is definitely not as good as the one put on J-10. The reason why PAF want Western ones is because the Western ones are proven (that's pretty obvious). But it must be said that the ones supplied are still good enough to pass the PAF standards. It's just that they are trying to make it as good as LCA/su-30mki (which isn't going to happen). Whereas in China's case, we just don't care about JF-17.

indianguy4u
08 Sep 05,, 07:33
tphuang just b'coz all u quote are from chinese website nobody here is gonna change their perception about chinese R&D capabilities. So untill and unless a neutral source come along all what u have said is not proven.

PS: When u are telling that indians here are being to much patriotic in championing LCA cause, its same (could/couldnt) with the writers of chinese websites u read.

lemontree
08 Sep 05,, 08:02
I don't really think India will go to war against China again, so all of these comparisons are just based on hypothetical arguments around the quantity/quality of the ACs.
That is what these stupid threads are - like silly debates on IAF and Turkish Airforce :rolleyes: Just hypothetical brainstorming sessions.

I personally do think it helps to have a lot of cannon fodders. It distracts enemy from the main force. But yeah, China definitely would not pull its most advanced ACs from Taiwan strait. It will probably send over a bunch of its latest J8IIs.
But back to topic, currently an Indo-Sino war is a distant realitly as both nations have been pragmatic and are developing their economy. However, most China watchers feel (as our WAB Colonel (OoE) a Sino expert) and most service men feel that an Indo-Sino war will mainly be infantry-arty intensive on the high mountains and the only thing that can give India an edge is the IAF. The navy will be restricted to sentry duties around likely PLAN threats (as PLAN currently does not have the assets to threaten Indian intrests).

ajaybhutani
08 Sep 05,, 08:38
Thats you cause your an idoit.
That was never needed dude. Hes representing his opinion just as you are...

tphuang
08 Sep 05,, 14:11
tphuang just b'coz all u quote are from chinese website nobody here is gonna change their perception about chinese R&D capabilities. So untill and unless a neutral source come along all what u have said is not proven.

PS: When u are telling that indians here are being to much patriotic in championing LCA cause, its same (could/couldnt) with the writers of chinese websites u read.
I basically mentionned one. That is the J-10. It's based on Lavi which is from F-16. It's not a F-16 clone as some have quoted, but it does often get compared to F-16s. So, you can base your judgements on that. Sure, those writers are patriotic, but the exercises between su-27/mkk and j-10 are mentionned by too many people. And if you look at the capabilities of the planes and what the Chinese government is doing, you start seeing why they actually happened.

indianguy4u
08 Sep 05,, 14:16
I basically mentionned one. That is the J-10. It's based on Lavi which is from F-16. It's not a F-16 clone as some have quoted, but it does often get compared to F-16s. So, you can base your judgements on that. Sure, those writers are patriotic, but the exercises between su-27/mkk and j-10 are mentionned by too many people. And if you look at the capabilities of the planes and what the Chinese government is doing, you start seeing why they actually happened.
I just meant ppl need hard facts. If it had been in reputed source then it would be possible to digest easily info. Its same with everyone.

Why doesnt plaaf or other wing of chinese def exercise to west.

indianguy4u
08 Sep 05,, 14:17
Does plaaf has any prog of sending Af pilots to west for training etc.

Sameer
08 Sep 05,, 17:17
I basically mentionned one. That is the J-10. It's based on Lavi which is from F-16. It's not a F-16 clone as some have quoted, but it does often get compared to F-16s. So, you can base your judgements on that. Sure, those writers are patriotic, but the exercises between su-27/mkk and j-10 are mentionned by too many people. And if you look at the capabilities of the planes and what the Chinese government is doing, you start seeing why they actually happened.


There should be one regiment of J-10 operational close to beijing, between 20-50 planes have been mentioned.

dabrownguy
08 Sep 05,, 20:12
Go to any Chinese web site and read it up. It's widely posted in China. You can choose to believe it or not. And it's against su-27, not su-35. J-10 wouldn't be able to beat su-35. If you can read Chinese, I'd direct you to all a site that reports this. Then again, you still probably would not believe it until you see with your eyes. And read up on the specs of J-10 sometimes, and then you'd probably see that it has far superior stats than su-27. Including speed, g, T/W ratio, hard points and avionics. I'm not comparing it to su-35 or su-30mki, those have far better radar and improved plane structure versus su-27 and su-30mkk.
First off I did go to Chinese military sites. CDF and SDF.
As for the EF vs Su35 the EF was actually simulating a Metaor missile. Read up on it. As for Hardpoints. How does the Su-27 loose to the J-10? The Su-27 can carry 10 AAM. J-10 can only carry 6 at most. The rest are for dumb bombs. Speed. Pff. What planet are you from. And I doubt the J-10 could pull more G rates. But does it matter? The Su-27 has a higher angle of attack. I stopped believing Chinese sources like yours when they claim RED AGEIS and HQ-9 with a range of 300 km. Please post a source!

Wow, you really are BSing now. If there is one thing China needs, that is new and better weapons really fast. Because of the Taiwan situation, China decided to go ahead with mass production of J-10 despite the fact that the engine made for it (WS-10A) was not even ready. As a result, they had to buy a lot of AL-31FN.
So what does that say?

Time is not on China's side. Look at the buying spree that China had in the past few years. They are about to buy even more IL-76, Il-78 and Tu-22M3s from Russia. The only thing they are not getting is su-30mkk. If su-27/su-30mkk were better, China would not be suspending one contract and not buying the other.
Say you are right and PLAAF will buy more J-10. Wonderfull. But did you maybe think they stopped to fill gaps in the AF? Since the Su-27 is only a air to air weapon. Perhaps PLAAF is pushing for the Su-35 upgrade. :rolleyes:
Ever wondar why the IAF doesn't purchase 700 Su-30MKI? No it's not because they don't have the cash. Its because LCA and MRCA are needed to fill gaps of ground attack and interception. Why did you think the US bought the F-16 when the F-15 is superior. Just because PLAAF dicides to buy the J-10 doesn't make it superior to the Su-27. It even has less range and payload.

No, I don't. I'm not Indian. If they are going to buy more, then good for them. I thought I read a lot of people who said that Indian media is calling LCA a waste of money. Considering you guys only four prototypes out after all these years, I can see why.
Trust the Indian Media.

top speed mach2.2, g limit 6.9, equipped with SD-10 and a radar that's good enough to use it, so it has BVR capability.
So what about speed? The Raptor has a speed of Mach 1.6. Its energy that counts in dog fights. In BVR the Bison has the R-77. I don't see the J-8 using the SD-10 when its not complete yet. The J-8 is trash. And considering the RCS of the J-8 it'll be locked on pretty fast.

I don't know exact radar of KLJ-1, but it has to be better than Zhuk-8II (70KM detection forward and 40KM detection backward), because it replaced it. So, what are the numbers on the radar of bison?
The Zhuk has less radar range. But what weapons can the J-8 carry? How many are BVR and in service compared to the 125 off Bison? But does the J-8 radar range matter when its uses a inferior R-27 missile compared to the R-77 the Bision uses.

No you don't. But judge by yourself, read what China is doing and the effort it puts behind J-10, judge for yourself. As I said, I can give you a lot of sites, but they are in Chinese.
So the J-10 can pull Mach 2.2. G limit is 10. Umm. You know what thats crap.

Do a google search, even the Sukhoi officials admitted that the most recently produced J-11s are better than the original su-27. Reason is that China is equipping it with better radar (not as good as KLJ-3, but still better than the original Russian ones)
The Chinese did improve the J-11. But to replace the radar? I doubt it.
I was asking how the J-10 is superior to the Su-27? In range? Weapon load?
Any idea?

Things look good for mki, but the su-35 is not really in production, so we don't know what it's really going to be like.
It is in production you undeducated teenager. Check your sources. The Russians threw out the TCV upgrade but gave it the N-011 radar. Not bars but close enough. Some minor changes here and there. Su-35 upgrade is just a sin off of the S-37 which crashed. As of now there is no Su-37 airframe.


There is this thing called upgrade. You may notice that su-30mkis haven't achieved their full potentials either.
They are complete but coming improved in batches.
The J-10 is used for analising combat potential in the PLAAF right now. Those are not production varients.

JH-7A is claimed by many to be as good as su-30mkk for attacking missions. Also, su-30mk2 is good for naval attacking missions.
No it isn't. I can carry the same weapons. But when it comes to radar. Payload. and range. It out classes it. The JH-7 is underpowered.

As for FC-1, the first 50 avionics delivered to FC-1 will be using Chinese Avionics. We know that the radars put on FC-1 is definitely not as good as the one put on J-10. The reason why PAF want Western ones is because the Western ones are proven (that's pretty obvious).
Why not? Why not offer the J-10's radar. Wouldn't that give China more money and PAF a better radar?
BTW. GO to school. This topic can crap you made up doesn't belong here.

My Indian sources say the LCA is capable of MACH 3 and 20 G limits!
Believe that.

tphuang
09 Sep 05,, 01:43
First off I did go to Chinese military sites. CDF and SDF.
As for the EF vs Su35 the EF was actually simulating a Metaor missile. Read up on it. As for Hardpoints. How does the Su-27 loose to the J-10? The Su-27 can carry 10 AAM. J-10 can only carry 6 at most. The rest are for dumb bombs. Speed. Pff. What planet are you from. And I doubt the J-10 could pull more G rates. But does it matter? The Su-27 has a higher angle of attack. I stopped believing Chinese sources like yours when they claim RED AGEIS and HQ-9 with a range of 300 km. Please post a source!

hmm, should we start to limit EF, so that it's at a disadvantage against su-35? Just where do you think su-35 should rank then? BTW, su-35 is not even finished yet, Russia is still planning changes to it (including equipping it with the missiles to be used in PAK FA). So, it's awfully ealry for some of you to say mki is better than it.

Check the other thread. And J-10 has 11 hard points. Check any source including sinodefense, it's actually one of the few things that sinodefense actually mentionned in there and got right. As for CDF and SDF, if you read some of those threads, then you might have figured out that other posters also think J-10 is better than su-27. There are Chinese sources that bs, but mainly with Chinese weapons vs Foreign weapons (rather than Chinese vs Chinese). As for Aegis, it's the Americans that compared 170/171/051C to Aegis ships.



So what does that say?

Say you are right and PLAAF will buy more J-10. Wonderfull. But did you maybe think they stopped to fill gaps in the AF? Since the Su-27 is only a air to air weapon. Perhaps PLAAF is pushing for the Su-35 upgrade. :rolleyes:
Ever wondar why the IAF doesn't purchase 700 Su-30MKI? No it's not because they don't have the cash. Its because LCA and MRCA are needed to fill gaps of ground attack and interception. Why did you think the US bought the F-16 when the F-15 is superior. Just because PLAAF dicides to buy the J-10 doesn't make it superior to the Su-27. It even has less range and payload.

J-10 is actually not as good as su-30mkk in A2G missions. It's specialty is A2A combat. mkk/mk2 is the weapon for that. If China is filling gaps, it should be getting more mkk/mk2s. F-16 block 60 with AESA is just as good as any F-15 in air combat.

As for range, J-10's range is reported to be anywhere from 1100 KM to 1850 KM compared to 1500 KM for J-11. No one know exactly what it is. I doubt anyone has really seriously tested it out. As for payload, it's likely less than J-11, but it's still in the range of F-16s (around 7000 KG).



Trust the Indian Media.

So what about speed? The Raptor has a speed of Mach 1.6. Its energy that counts in dog fights. In BVR the Bison has the R-77. I don't see the J-8 using the SD-10 when its not complete yet. The J-8 is trash. And considering the RCS of the J-8 it'll be locked on pretty fast.

The Zhuk has less radar range. But what weapons can the J-8 carry? How many are BVR and in service compared to the 125 off Bison? But does the J-8 radar range matter when its uses a inferior R-27 missile compared to the R-77 the Bision uses.

SD-10 is complete, it has finished testing. I honestly don't know where you get your sources from. Dude, you repeated your point twice in there. I get it. R-77 is good. And also, what's the point of having R-77 when your radar range doesn't even go that far? Let's see, I'm going to hit someone that my radar can't even detect. That's an interesting thought. I'm not sure how many J-8II are in service. As for RCS, considering both planes are based on Mig-21 technogloy, I think their RCS should be in each other's ballpark. I'd love to see you provide some evidence for otherwise. So, after you called out J-8 (which I have no problem with), you can only come up with 2 areas that Bison exceeds it in (and those arguments aren't even good)? Yes J-8 is trash, but so is Bison. I consider anything below F-16A/B to be trash.



So the J-10 can pull Mach 2.2. G limit is 10. Umm. You know what thats crap.

What do you think the numbers are then? Those are pretty widely published numbers. For Mach 2.2, check this article
http://military.china.com/zh_cn/critical3/27/20050423/12264381.html


The Chinese did improve the J-11. But to replace the radar? I doubt it.
I was asking how the J-10 is superior to the Su-27? In range? Weapon load?
Any idea?

Yes they did, if you say that you visit CDF. Pick up any thread and start reading. Once you finish that, go search J-11 and 1474 (that's the radar it uses). It's believed that the radar is better and the assembling is done better.
If you don't take my words, check this
http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2000_2003/reports/mair1.htm
It's done in the J-11 Indigenization part



It is in production you undeducated teenager. Check your sources. The Russians threw out the TCV upgrade but gave it the N-011 radar. Not bars but close enough. Some minor changes here and there. Su-35 upgrade is just a sin off of the S-37 which crashed. As of now there is no Su-37 airframe.

Wow, now I'm really offended. You have thrown two personal attacks at me now. Do you want me to give you an idea of my educational background? I'd be glad to entertain you. Again, I read a recent article (just yesterday) that the Russians are still making changes to Su-35 (as I stated above). As for TVC, you are right about that, but su-35 might change to AL-31FM1 in the future, which would have TVC.



The J-10 is used for analising combat potential in the PLAAF right now. Those are not production varients.

Can you provide a source for this. Check http://www.kanwa.com/ckir/, in the 2005-08-20 issue, it says J-10A is starting maximum production level. If you go back a few issues to 2004 issue of Kanwa, the first production line's maximum capacity started in 2004.



No it isn't. I can carry the same weapons. But when it comes to radar. Payload. and range. It out classes it. The JH-7 is underpowered.

Why not? Why not offer the J-10's radar. Wouldn't that give China more money and PAF a better radar?
BTW. GO to school.

okay, that's the 3rd insult directed to me. You are really hurting my feelings now. Just kidding, cheers. Don't get so angry.
The JH-7A radar is actually better than the radar on su-30mkk (I know that's sad, considering JL-10A isn't that great). Again, I don't believe JH-7A is as good as su-30mkk, but some people have said it.

As for the radar, China doesn't want to give PAF its best weapons. I think that's easily understandable. F22P is a second level Frigate. JF-17 is a third level fighter. K-8 is just for poor countries.

"This topic can crap you made up doesn't belong here. " - looks like you need some help with English. It's really ironic that you have provided zero source the entire response. Thanks.



My Indian sources say the LCA is capable of MACH 3 and 20 G limits!
Believe that.
except that one poster on this board consistently mentionned that LCA is capable of MACH 1.8 and 9 g limit and has only reached mach 1.4 and 5 g in tests. Even the non-Chinese sources are putting j-10 at mach 2.0 and 10 g. I don't see your point. I have definitely read a tonne more about j-10 than you have.

dabrownguy
09 Sep 05,, 07:48
hmm, should we start to limit EF, so that it's at a disadvantage against su-35? Just where do you think su-35 should rank then? BTW, su-35 is not even finished yet, Russia is still planning changes to it (including equipping it with the missiles to be used in PAK FA). So, it's awfully ealry for some of you to say mki is better than it.
What do I need to say to you that the Su-35 is in service with teh Russians. The Su-35 is and upgrade for the Su-27. It has almost everything the Su-37 prototype had. It is finished. Further work is always going on. The MKI is being developed even further.

Check the other thread. And J-10 has 11 hard points. Check any source including sinodefense, it's actually one of the few things that sinodefense actually mentionned in there and got right. As for CDF and SDF, if you read some of those threads, then you might have figured out that other posters also think J-10 is better than su-27. There are Chinese sources that bs, but mainly with Chinese weapons vs Foreign weapons (rather than Chinese vs Chinese). As for Aegis, it's the Americans that compared 170/171/051C to Aegis ships.
You are a fool. The J-10 has 6 hardpoints that are "wet". Those hardpoints are the only ones that can use air to air weapons. The Su-27 uses all the hardpoints for air to air. Meaning the Su-27 can carry 10 air to air weapons.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Su-30/Su-30j.jpg
Shut up. The J-10 has 4 hardpoints that are either for PODS or dumb-bombs. Those 4 hardpoints are too tight and close to the middle hardpoint to be equiped with air to airweapons, not to mention to small.

It's specialty is A2A combat.
No its not. The specialty is multi-role. Airtoair,air to ground. If the J-10 is a air superiority fighter it would have more air to air harpoints like the MiG-29 or the Su-27.

F-16 block 60 with AESA is just as good as any F-15 in air combat.
Corrections. The F-15K is better. It too is superiot in terms of air to air, and air to ground.

As for range, J-10's range is reported to be anywhere from 1100 KM to 1850 KM compared to 1500 KM for J-11. No one know exactly what it is. I doubt anyone has really seriously tested it out
Thats because theres no officail source.

As for payload, it's likely less than J-11, but it's still in the range of F-16s (around 7000 KG).
It is less than the J-11. Less than the F-16. The F-16 has a more powerfull engine and is a stronger structure. Given the engine. Not more than 5000 kg.


SD-10 is complete, it has finished testing. I honestly don't know where you get your sources from. Dude, you repeated your point twice in there. I get it. R-77 is good. And also, what's the point of having R-77 when your radar range doesn't even go that far? Let's see, I'm going to hit someone that my radar can't even detect.
Ever heard of datalinking? The Su-30MKI highlights the target and the R-77 is fired from the Bison.

That's an interesting thought. I'm not sure how many J-8II are in service. As for RCS, considering both planes are based on Mig-21 technogloy, I think their RCS should be in each other's ballpark. I'd love to see you provide some evidence for otherwise.
So? One is a lot bigger. The j-8 is just a bigger J-7. The RCS is obvously bigger. Do you even know what i'm talking about?

Yes J-8 is trash, but so is Bison. I consider anything below F-16A/B to be trash.
Yea but Bison is better than J-8 and still comparable to F-16A/B. That early block isn't BVR capable. The Bison employs the same EW suite the MKI employs.
I find it hard to believe it. It isn't officail. This like the time some one faked news of PLAN sinking an IN sub. Give me a english source. Give me a real source. Give me math atleast.


Yes they did, if you say that you visit CDF. Pick up any thread and start reading. Once you finish that, go search J-11 and 1474 (that's the radar it uses). It's believed that the radar is better and the assembling is done better.
If you don't take my words, check this
http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/...ports/mair1.htm
It's done in the J-11 Indigenization part
The radar? the J-11 has a superior radar to the J-10 radar. States sinodefence. Now. Why would sinodefence.com claim China is working on a multi-role J-11B? Because it is in the works. BTW give me the actuall radar specs. Range is not everything.

Wow, now I'm really offended. You have thrown two personal attacks at me now. Do you want me to give you an idea of my educational background? I'd be glad to entertain you. Again, I read a recent article (just yesterday) that the Russians are still making changes to Su-35 (as I stated above). As for TVC, you are right about that, but su-35 might change to AL-31FM1 in the future, which would have TVC.
The complete upgrade is with TVC. The Russian AF didn't want it because of the mantianence. They are always working on new technology. So what is your point?

Can you provide a source for this. Check http://www.kanwa.com/ckir/, in the 2005-08-20 issue, it says J-10A is starting maximum production level. If you go back a few issues to 2004 issue of Kanwa, the first production line's maximum capacity started in 2004. Thats a light production batch with Russian engines. If anything China is waiting for a indignous engine.

The JH-7A radar is actually better than the radar on su-30mkk (I know that's sad, considering JL-10A isn't that great). Again, I don't believe JH-7A is as good as su-30mkk, but some people have said it.
People say a lot of things. How is the radar superior. Do you have specs or do I have to trust your view. Your already wrong on everything you've said. You've had countless baseless arguements.

As for the radar, China doesn't want to give PAF its best weapons. I think that's easily understandable. F22P is a second level Frigate. JF-17 is a third level fighter. K-8 is just for poor countries.
What?? Best weapons. The US is offering F-16BL50. China is embarassed to give out the J-10 which isn't even on par?

looks like you need some help with English. It's really ironic that you have provided zero source the entire response. Thanks.
My sources are good. Check the specs and everything i've said. You have provided nothing but lies.

except that one poster on this board consistently mentionned that LCA is capable of MACH 1.8 and 9 g limit and has only reached mach 1.4 and 5 g in tests.
Yes. Why not. Thats reasonable considering that most aircraft do reach these limits. If the F-18 can reach Mach 2 the much lighter LCA with a single engine can reach mach 1.8. That is the goal. The other is to have G limits of 9. You state unbelieve things How is it that you don't understand testing?

Even the non-Chinese sources are putting j-10 at mach 2.0 and 10 g. I don't see your point. I have definitely read a tonne more about j-10 than you have.
From sources that speculate. Read up other aircraft. Compare it to J-10.

dabrownguy
09 Sep 05,, 08:07
BTW read this topic. He seems more reliable and honest then your pointless boasting.
http://pakistanidefenceforum.com/index.php?showtopic=48599
;)

kargal
09 Sep 05,, 23:15
kargal, go back to pakistanidefenceforum.com and learn english before making another post.

I think your 5HT level is getting higher and have a problem of indigestion about the facts. I am only answering about some Indian immature member are talking. Grow up kidow and don't support others, come back in real world of peace and harmony not a machoismo. :tongue:

kargal
09 Sep 05,, 23:38
how pathetic is a *****_brain?
any terrorist activity today will lead to the root in pakistan. look thru the "darul harb" prism buddy, it is islam the root of terrorism and Pakiland is the hub. America has already started the crusade against islamic world and she needs pakistan "only" for its convenience. right now usa is running the show in pakistan. the whole country is wired thru "piesces" and sending the data back to washington. FBI is found everywhere in pakistan lets leave CIA alone for a moment to ensure that they zap its nuclear assets (chinaman suds) once musharaf falls.
why so much of this for non nato ally?
because the world sees every pakistani as a terrorist more than any other citizen of non islamic countries. every terror activity is hatched in pakistan
:redface:
in the last war in 1971, indian airforce had complete control of pakistani airspace after wiping out every plane in *****_posession.
*********You are immature with FULL OF hate, so what hindo do...MEAN MEAN....
We will see after few months,MUSHARAF IS GONA RISE,....RISE ...RISE.
USA IS THERE, SINCE 1947. sO WHAT AND YOU WILL SEE jEWS BROTHER TOO :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
" indian airforce had complete control" YES IN EAST PAKISTAN,
1971, THAT WAS NOT ACTUAL WAR. iT WAS BHUTO'S WAR AND LOST IT ... DOOD

akash
09 Sep 05,, 23:51
*********You are immature with FULL OF hate, so what hindo do...MEAN MEAN....
We will see after few months,MUSHARAF IS GONA RISE,....RISE ...RISE.
USA IS THERE, SINCE 1947. sO WHAT AND YOU WILL SEE jEWS BROTHER TOO :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
" indian airforce had complete control" YES IN EAST PAKISTAN,
1971, THAT WAS NOT ACTUAL WAR. iT WAS BHUTO'S WAR AND LOST IT ... DOOD


Bull **** dood.

tphuang
10 Sep 05,, 01:46
BTW read this topic. He seems more reliable and honest then your pointless boasting.
http://pakistanidefenceforum.com/index.php?showtopic=48599
;)
right, and some Pakistanis would know more about Chinese planes than Chinese sources. Nice. And let see what did he say that contradicted what I said? SD-10, that's about it. And I didnt' say anything about SD-10 being great, but just that it's finished testing and J-10 is equpping them as of July according to Kanwa. And just as I said before, the first bathc of JF-17 uses Chinese avionics.

VayuSena
10 Sep 05,, 03:30
Kargal: Like DM said, go back to the PDF...we dont need your kind here. Also, learn some decent english. The Hindus, the Jews and all the otehr infidels have been defeating you people for decades. You claim to be superior to Hindus and Jews...so how come they always defeat you guys in every aspect?



INFIDEL PRIDE!

tphuang
10 Sep 05,, 04:03
What do I need to say to you that the Su-35 is in service with teh Russians. The Su-35 is and upgrade for the Su-27. It has almost everything the Su-37 prototype had. It is finished. Further work is always going on. The MKI is being developed even further.

hmm, I thought I read it somewhere that it is entering their service, but it's getting upgrades (just like MKI is).


You are a fool. The J-10 has 6 hardpoints that are "wet". Those hardpoints are the only ones that can use air to air weapons. The Su-27 uses all the hardpoints for air to air. Meaning the Su-27 can carry 10 air to air weapons.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Su-30/Su-30j.jpg
Shut up. The J-10 has 4 hardpoints that are either for PODS or dumb-bombs. Those 4 hardpoints are too tight and close to the middle hardpoint to be equiped with air to airweapons, not to mention to small.

Nice, another direct insult. Since you have been questioning my age, may I ask what is yours? Okay, now that I checked a little more. I must apologize, it looks like you are right about the 4 hard points, but it's still 7 hard points not 6. You don't need to carry 10 aam, if you can hit the opposing fighter with 1 aam.


No its not. The specialty is multi-role. Airtoair,air to ground. If the J-10 is a air superiority fighter it would have more air to air harpoints like the MiG-29 or the Su-27.

hmm, it was originally developed as a air superiority fighter to combat mig-29/su-27. Check up on this. It was later redesigned for multi-role, but the problem is that it's A2G attack is quite weak. However, it turned out as I mentionned that in the A2A combats, it was superior to su-27sk/J-11/Su-30mkk.



Corrections. The F-15K is better. It too is superiot in terms of air to air, and air to ground.

That's your opinion, but even if that's the case, F-16 block 60 is still better than most of the F-15 class. Same with J-10, it's not better than su-35/30mki, but it's better than 27sk and skm and smk and mkk.



It is less than the J-11. Less than the F-16. The F-16 has a more powerfull engine and is a stronger structure. Given the engine. Not more than 5000 kg.

right, F-16's early models used F-110 and J-11 uses AL-31FN. They have similar thrust and T/W ratio. Although, AL-31 is considered to be less reliable. In fact, WS-10A is designed based on the non-military version of F-110. It's specs are similar to F-110. Please, check up on this before talking. Your engine argument is totally flawed.



Ever heard of datalinking? The Su-30MKI highlights the target and the R-77 is fired from the Bison.

So? One is a lot bigger. The j-8 is just a bigger J-7. The RCS is obvously bigger. Do you even know what i'm talking about?

J-8 is bigger, but it's designed slightly better than J-7. Size is not the only determining factor of stealthiness. Yeah, it datalink is used, it would be useful.



Yea but Bison is better than J-8 and still comparable to F-16A/B. That early block isn't BVR capable. The Bison employs the same EW suite the MKI employs.
I find it hard to believe it. It isn't officail. This like the time some one faked news of PLAN sinking an IN sub. Give me a english source. Give me a real source. Give me math atleast.

You are telling me that something based on Mig-21 is better than F-16, lol. Cool.


The radar? the J-11 has a superior radar to the J-10 radar. States sinodefence. Now. Why would sinodefence.com claim China is working on a multi-role J-11B? Because it is in the works. BTW give me the actuall radar specs. Range is not everything.

sinodefense is a fan site. The number used for J-10 radar isn't correct. Think about this, it rejected zhuk-10pd which has much better numbers than what's posted on sinodefense. China isn't stupid, it picks the best possible radar for its flagship fighter. If you don't believe me, check this
http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2004/04fisher_report/7airforcesystems.htm
Check the J-10 section for the radar info
btw, the Chinese source I had was this.
http://www.tzsl.org/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=1468
The radar used for J-11B is 1474. No one knows exactly what the stats of 1474 (KLJ-4) is, but it is thought to be close to 1473. So, don't tell me J-11 has a superior radar to J-10 radar.



The complete upgrade is with TVC. The Russian AF didn't want it because of the mantianence. They are always working on new technology. So what is your point?
Thats a light production batch with Russian engines. If anything China is waiting for a indignous engine.

yes, China is waiting for WS-10A which is due to finish testing in the end of this year or the beginning of next year. Actually, J-11B is already fitted with it, so most of the testing is done on J-11B.



People say a lot of things. How is the radar superior. Do you have specs or do I have to trust your view. Your already wrong on everything you've said. You've had countless baseless arguements.

I just provided some. It's up to you whether you believe them or not. I read a lot of J-10 articles and I determine from a wide range of articles what is most commonly mentionned and come up with my views.



What?? Best weapons. The US is offering F-16BL50. China is embarassed to give out the J-10 which isn't even on par?

China won't give Pakistan its best weapons, because it needs it for Taiwan. If Pakistan doesn't want to buy them, no big deal. If you read the pakistan forum, you would notice that most of the posters want J-10. And if you don't think so, start a thread there and ask people to vote.



My sources are good. Check the specs and everything i've said. You have provided nothing but lies.

I provided links and you have done nothing (no links, no source) but talk and thrown insults at me.



Yes. Why not. Thats reasonable considering that most aircraft do reach these limits. If the F-18 can reach Mach 2 the much lighter LCA with a single engine can reach mach 1.8. That is the goal. The other is to have G limits of 9. You state unbelieve things How is it that you don't understand testing?

From sources that speculate. Read up other aircraft. Compare it to J-10.
I read up on other aircraft. If J-8 can reach mach 2.2, nothing is stopping J-10 from doing better. As for G limit, most of the site I read uses 10g, but there are some that uses 9. I do understand testing, I spend a year doing that kind of job.

Look, I think it's pointless to argue anymore. I've read my J-10 sources and you read yours. You have yours and I have my. Let's just leave it as that.

brownboi4eva
10 Sep 05,, 04:51
after the plane also dont forget to analyze the weapons and A2A available, along with RCS and radars.

dabrownguy
10 Sep 05,, 08:23
hmm, I thought I read it somewhere that it is entering their service, but it's getting upgrades (just like MKI is).
They are in service. I don't know how many times I have to tell you that the ones in service are upgrades.

but it's still 7 hard points not 6. You don't need to carry 10 aam, if you can hit the opposing fighter with 1 aam.
Well the one under the belly is Wet but doesn't or will most likily not be equiped with AAM. Most likily heavy ASM or bombs. If you equip it with 6 AAM then the one under it will be a ejectable drop tank. The drop tank is dropped when engaging WVR enemies. Range is reduced when you put more weight on it.

hmm, it was originally developed as a air superiority fighter to combat mig-29/su-27.
Yes and the requirement changed and PLAAF notified Chengdu. It is now a MRCA! The orginal requirment was for a TWIN engined air superiority fighter that could challenge the likes of flankers. Not it's a single engined MRCA the role of air supreriority is taken by Flankers.

A2G attack is quite weak. However, it turned out as I mentionned that in the A2A combats, it was superior to su-27sk/J-11/Su-30mkk.

A2G attack is quite weak. However, it turned out as I mentionned that in the A2A combats, it was superior to su-27sk/J-11/Su-30mkk.
How? Higher AOA? IRST? Radar? Hardpoints? Doesn't seem to be!
I will give you that the R-27 and the R-77 are not great missiles. The EW suite on the S-27 is crap. The R-77 PLAAF have are a latter and the worst in service. But you exclude all this. I don't see how this aircraft can deal with a Su-27. It is not on par when it comes to air to air combat against the Su-27. When it comes to ground attack. Of course its better than the Su-27. The Su-27 has no Air to ground attack capability other then dumb bombs.


That's your opinion, but even if that's the case, F-16 block 60 is still better than most of the F-15 class.
Your point being?

but it's better than 27sk and skm and smk and mkk.
Hah! The MKK employs a powerfull radar and has ground attack capability. You really don't know what your talking about.

right, F-16's early models used F-110 and J-11 uses AL-31FN. They have similar thrust and T/W ratio. Although, AL-31 is considered to be less reliable. In fact, WS-10A is designed based on the non-military version of F-110. It's specs are similar to F-110. Please, check up on this before talking. Your engine argument is totally flawed.
Its designed after the Al-31. Why do you think it'll replace it? The Kaveri is designed after the GE-404. Why do you think it'll replace it?

J-8 is bigger, but it's designed slightly better than J-7.
Stealthy? Englighten me please? Look at them! They are the same. The J-8 is no way stealtheir!.

Size is not the only determining factor of stealthiness. Yeah, it datalink is used, it would be useful.
Size does determine RCS. So does scattering, smooth surface, internal weapons bay, and the unproven PLASMA technology. Where is your arguement again?

You are telling me that something based on Mig-21 is better than F-16, lol. Cool.
The early block A/B when it comes to BVR. I don't know about the EW but probabily the same. Its been talked about. The Bison employs R-77 and R-73.

Think about this, it rejected zhuk-10pd which has much better numbers than what's posted on sinodefense. China isn't stupid, it picks the best possible radar for its flagship fighter. If you don't believe me, check this
Politics get the last word. Always do. Perhaps it wasn't the PLAAF's choice.

So, don't tell me J-11 has a superior radar to J-10 radar.
Don' tell me the J-10 is superior to the J-11 when you don't have radar specs.

China won't give Pakistan its best weapons, because it needs it for Taiwan. If Pakistan doesn't want to buy them, no big deal.
Again China isn't giving. They are selling! The J-10 can easily be produced in large numbers for both PAF and PLAAF. You have no arguement here.

If you read the pakistan forum, you would notice that most of the posters want J-10. And if you don't think so, start a thread there and ask people to vote.
Because they are jsut like you. They don't know it's capabilities. They are overnationalist idoits. Most of them.

I provided links and you have done nothing (no links, no source) but talk and thrown insults at me.
Hey but I don't have outrages claims.


I read up on other aircraft. If J-8 can reach mach 2.2, nothing is stopping J-10 from doing better
It has two powerfull engines.

As for G limit, most of the site I read uses 10g, but there are some that uses 9. I do understand testing, I spend a year doing that kind of job.
Okay say the J-10 can use 10G even thought the Pilot can't. What is it's AoA?

Look, I think it's pointless to argue anymore. I've read my J-10 sources and you read yours. You have yours and I have my. Let's just leave it as that.
Good idea.

Wing-man
07 Oct 05,, 11:57
Well i can say that comparing IAF with USAF IAF is going to be dead meat lets compare the A/c of IAF and USAF well USAF has F-15,F-16,F-18,F-22,F-117,B-2,B-1,B-52,A-10 and those F-20 :tongue: plus they also have Mig-29's and Mig-27's and i have heard they also have some SU-27's besides they have over all best avionics like AMRAAMS , AIM-9X,harm,etc and they have S-3 sentry and comparing MIG-25 with Black BIRD :eek: IAF is a laughing stock in front USAF compare the budget of both countries well i dont want to say any more a hand full of mir-2000 and Su-30 can not win a war when they are also outnumbered besides B-2 can take out those aircrafts even before they are in air IAF is doomed for sure if they stand against USAF, War games is some thing entirely different as compared to real war in a wargame they never use all avalible weapons like B-2 and F-117 India has just enough capability to take on F-16's and nothing above that where as USAF is thinking to even stop the production of those aircrafts

Acer
07 Oct 05,, 14:03
I read through maybe half of this topic, and figured the question is worthless... lol

I mean, (if raptor122 still reads this), why limit it to only 4-4.5 generation aircraft? I mean seriously, why do you think 5th generation aircraft are being built? To replace the older versions...

It's like, maybe we should compare the tank forces of the US and China, then say that M1A2s don't count.

And even a squadron of Raptors can do alot to alter the balance in the air. [I think simulation has each plane downs 10 aircraft (Mig-29 level ish) before getting shot down?]

And still again, the post about better pilot training... lame... that has to be counted

my 2 cents... not that I think anyone cares anymore... lmao

Warrior_Medic
21 Oct 05,, 08:49
Iraq pre-Desert Storm would wipe out the Indian Air FARCE !

raptor1992
21 Oct 05,, 23:45
Iraq pre-Desert Storm would wipe out the Indian Air FARCE !

i seriously doubt that. not trying to be offensive mate. iraqis are very primitive in air-to-air combat :biggrin:

Warrior_Medic
22 Oct 05,, 01:21
i seriously doubt that. not trying to be offensive mate. iraqis are very primitive in air-to-air combat :biggrin:

Why do you doubt that? The Iraqis had/have the same basic equipment as the Indian Air FARCE (crappy Soviet hardware) and they had experience with their war with Iran and their sucessful invasion of Kuwait. What have the Indians ever done?

Iraq wins hands down.

India is nothing but an upstart country or a pussycat on paper.

Just like opening Desert Storm, we'd launch stealth attacks deep into India and annihilate anything that would impede the total destruction of the Indian military infrastructure.

I'm not even going to mention what OUR NUCLEAR POWERED AIRCRAFT CARRIER BATTLE groups and our subs would do to the Indian coast.

raptor1992
22 Oct 05,, 01:28
Why do you doubt that? The Iraqis had/have the same basic equipment as the Indian Air FARCE (crappy Soviet hardware) and they had experience with their war with Iran and their sucessful invasion of Kuwait. What have the Indians ever done?

Iraq wins hands down.

India is nothing but an upstart country or a pussycat on paper.

Just like opening Desert Storm, we'd launch stealth attacks deep into India and annihilate anything that would impede the total destruction of the Indian military infrastructure.

I'm not even going to mention what OUR NUCLEAR POWERED AIRCRAFT CARRIER BATTLE groups and our subs would do to the Indian coast.

hey, Su-30MKIs would make the indians victorious. most of iraqi air force are just MiG-23

ajaybhutani
25 Oct 05,, 08:51
Why do you doubt that? The Iraqis had/have the same basic equipment as the Indian Air FARCE (crappy Soviet hardware) and they had experience with their war with Iran and their sucessful invasion of Kuwait. What have the Indians ever done?

Iraq wins hands down.

India is nothing but an upstart country or a pussycat on paper.

Just like opening Desert Storm, we'd launch stealth attacks deep into India and annihilate anything that would impede the total destruction of the Indian military infrastructure.

I'm not even going to mention what OUR NUCLEAR POWERED AIRCRAFT CARRIER BATTLE groups and our subs would do to the Indian coast.
How old are u kid ??

Warrior_Medic
25 Oct 05,, 09:10
How old are u kid ??


Above 30+ years old (forget what my registration info says). Why? Just because I have my own way of replying doesn't make me anymore immature than all you cyberspace posters (what a joke).

How old are you, kid? Are you even in the military? I got 10 continous years as a U.S. Army soldier (10 to go) and I'm a 2 time Iragi war vet (DS and OIF) with possibly more deployment as a medic.

WHAT ARE YOU!? :rolleyes:

ajaybhutani
25 Oct 05,, 09:54
Above 30+ years old (forget what my registration info says). Why? Just because I have my own way of replying doesn't make me anymore immature than all you cyberspace posters (what a joke)

How old are you, kid? Are you even in the military? I got 10 continous years as a U.S. Army soldier (10 to go) and I'm a 2 time Iragi war vet (DS and OIF) with possibly more deployment as a medic.

WHAT ARE YOU!? :rolleyes:
1. In case u've got 10 continous years in military you would understand how insane it is to compare indian military with Iraqi military. And of course there are many army personnel here.retired and still in service but i havent seen any of them with such posts.
Quite interestingly the way u have written ur posts , it reminded me of bulls first first few posts.

lwarmonger
25 Oct 05,, 09:54
Why do you doubt that? The Iraqis had/have the same basic equipment as the Indian Air FARCE (crappy Soviet hardware) and they had experience with their war with Iran and their sucessful invasion of Kuwait. What have the Indians ever done?


Kicked the crap out of Pakistan several times, and knocked the Chinese back across the border.



Iraq wins hands down.

Iraqi aircraft flew to Iran at the start of Desert Storm, who then kept the aircraft and sent the pilots home. Hardly a stellar preformance.



India is nothing but an upstart country or a pussycat on paper.

With a series of victories behind them.



Just like opening Desert Storm, we'd launch stealth attacks deep into India and annihilate anything that would impede the total destruction of the Indian military infrastructure.

I'm not even going to mention what OUR NUCLEAR POWERED AIRCRAFT CARRIER BATTLE groups and our subs would do to the Indian coast.

You could say that about our abilities compared to any nation. Of all the nations on earth, I think India is one of the least threatening nations to the US in the future, given the friendly relationship and strengthening economic ties between our two countries.

lwarmonger
25 Oct 05,, 09:57
Quite interestingly the way u have written ur posts , it reminded me of bulls first first few posts.

True. Lol. :biggrin:

bull
25 Oct 05,, 10:38
Quite interestingly the way u have written ur posts , it reminded me of bulls first first few posts.

Ajayyyyyyyyy, when have i said something like that!!!

ajaybhutani
25 Oct 05,, 14:18
Ajayyyyyyyyy, when have i said something like that!!!
sorry dude dont take it so sireously.. when u came to the forum there was some level of immaturity visible from ur posts.. and definitely u have learned a lot during ur stay here....or i would say you have grown up..
I found similar immaturity in his posts. actually much more immaturity .. :D..

lwarmonger
25 Oct 05,, 17:49
Ajayyyyyyyyy, when have i said something like that!!!


:tongue:
:biggrin:

Got to love messin with people!

Officer of Engineers
25 Oct 05,, 18:00
and knocked the Chinese back across the border.

To be accurate, they scared the Chinese back across the border. The Chinese were the ones who delivered the knock out sucker punch.

ajaybhutani
26 Oct 05,, 05:43
To be accurate, they scared the Chinese back across the border. The Chinese were the ones who delivered the knock out sucker punch.
when did that happen ??

Officer of Engineers
26 Oct 05,, 05:46
1962. When else?

lemontree
26 Oct 05,, 06:22
I'm not even going to mention what OUR NUCLEAR POWERED AIRCRAFT CARRIER BATTLE groups and our subs would do to the Indian coast.
Have you considered the millions of crows over Indian cities?...The USAF would suffer max cas due to bird hits.. :biggrin: :tongue:

lemontree
26 Oct 05,, 06:27
How old are you, kid? Are you even in the military? I got 10 continous years as a U.S. Army soldier (10 to go) and I'm a 2 time Iragi war vet (DS and OIF) with possibly more deployment as a medic.

Although the post was not addressed to me. But I have a query...
What was the powdered medicine put on wounds and injuries before dressing it up (since WW2 till the late 70s)?...As an army medic you would know.

Officer of Engineers
26 Oct 05,, 06:59
Although the post was not addressed to me. But I have a query...
What was the powdered medicine put on wounds and injuries before dressing it up (since WW2 till the late 70s)?...As an army medic you would know.
Captain,

You do realize he cannot answered. He's banned.

ajaybhutani
26 Oct 05,, 08:04
1962. When else?
i apologise i m quite ignorant about india china war. I thought india lost miserably in the same.

lemontree
26 Oct 05,, 08:59
Captain,

You do realize he cannot answered. He's banned.
Oops..did'nt notice that sir. :)

Warrior_Medic
27 Oct 05,, 01:10
1. In case u've got 10 continous years in military you would understand how insane it is to compare indian military with Iraqi military. And of course there are many army personnel here.retired and still in service but i havent seen any of them with such posts.
Quite interestingly the way u have written ur posts , it reminded me of bulls first first few posts.


Yeah...yeah (kid).

Let me know when you're done with boot camp and actually have something akin to a DD214.

Armchair 5 star generals here :rolleyes:

Warrior_Medic
27 Oct 05,, 01:23
Kicked the crap out of Pakistan several times, and knocked the Chinese back across the border.

Wow. Bunch of Pakistanis. Yeah, that's impressive for you Indians to be so arrogant enough to think you can take on the MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. And another thing, the Chinese raped your countryside for years before India did anything about it. In fact, even the Chinese could destroy India.


Iraqi aircraft flew to Iran at the start of Desert Storm, who then kept the aircraft and sent the pilots home. Hardly a stellar preformance.

Who the hell do you think sent them with their tails behind their back to Iran? That's right! us and our allies with our F-15C Eagles in REAL TIME BATTLE (NOT THAT STUPID MOCK EXERCISES you Indians are so proud of with your puny exercises with the now outdated F-15 Eagle and lacksadaisacal American pilots).

AND YOUR WRONG! at the start of the war, the Iraqis actually flew against our aircrafts until we kicked their ass like we'd always done to other air forces the past 65 years. Get an education fool and don't think WE AMERICANS care about your little insignificant border war with a bunch of sheep herders (lol).

When was the last time India had a "Battle of the Bulge" type battle again?

In a aerial battle with us, we'd send all your iNDIANS PILOTS TO kali. In a all-out war with the U.S. , you're country won't last 1 day (nuclear) or 1 week (non-restrictive Vietnam crap conventional warfare).

Get over yourselves armchair fighter fanboys. It's you people that's looking like assclowns, not I.


I'd still pick Iraq and China over India anyday and Pakistan is a freaking joke of a military. That's like the U.S. trying to compare itself to the aboriginies.

Warrior_Medic
27 Oct 05,, 01:30
Although the post was not addressed to me. But I have a query...
What was the powdered medicine put on wounds and injuries before dressing it up (since WW2 till the late 70s)?...As an army medic you would know.

I'm a freaking medic of the 90s and present day (with a combat medic badge). I'm also a damn registered nurse in an ED unit in the civilian world. What the hell do I care about some stupid powder that obviously was disbanded from usage? I could freaking Google your damn answer, but I don't have to prove nothing to you! I also don't care if you think i'm a liar (like I give a crap).

Let me know when you've passed bootcamp.

:rolleyes:

TopHatter
27 Oct 05,, 01:40
I'm a freaking medic of the 90s and present day (with a combat medic badge). I'm also a damn registered nurse in an ED unit in the civilian world. What the hell do I care about some stupid powder that obviously was disbanded from usage? I could freaking Google your damn answer, but I don't have to prove nothing to you! I also don't care if you think i'm a liar (like I give a crap).

Let me know when you've passed bootcamp.

:rolleyes:
Lighten up Francis :rolleyes:

You know, you could be just a little more polite to the members on this board, regardless of nationality.
Us civilian guys are going to get the impression that military personnel are all a bunch of arrogant braggarts that like to show up and throw their service record, citations and military expertise around.

raptor1992
27 Oct 05,, 01:57
To be accurate, they scared the Chinese back across the border. The Chinese were the ones who delivered the knock out sucker punch.

sounds familiar. i believe i heard that from a news on CNN :biggrin:

dabrownguy
27 Oct 05,, 03:59
The Iraqi military is stronger than the Indian military? I seriously doubt it.

Officer of Engineers
27 Oct 05,, 04:25
Let me know when you've passed bootcamp.

I have absolutely no idea what is your major malfunction but be advised that there are those here who has seen alot more trigger time than you.

In fact, why is this freaking idiot unbanned?

lemontree
27 Oct 05,, 05:48
I'm a freaking medic of the 90s and present day (with a combat medic badge).
I am yet to hear or see a "freaking" medic.

I'm also a damn registered nurse in an ED unit in the civilian world. What the hell do I care about some stupid powder that obviously was disbanded from usage? I could freaking Google your damn answer, but I don't have to prove nothing to you! I also don't care if you think i'm a liar (like I give a crap).
I checked. FYI it is still used widely in the US, and has not been discarded (disbanded is not the word). The earlier form was a powder and today it also comes as a gel in a tube - Neosprin. So most probably you are a liar , in WAB liars are pariahs. Suit yourself. :rolleyes:

Let me know when you've passed bootcamp.
You will not last a week from what we have gone through. ;)

Warrior_Medic
27 Oct 05,, 06:58
I am yet to hear or see a "freaking" medic.

I checked. FYI it is still used widely in the US, and has not been discarded (disbanded is not the word). The earlier form was a powder and today it also comes as a gel in a tube - Neosprin. So most probably you are a liar , in WAB liars are pariahs. Suit yourself. :rolleyes:

You will not last a week from what we have gone through. ;)

Dude, STFU. I don't need to "last", I've been there done that.

:rolleyes:

stupid armchair wannabe teeny boppers.

Warrior_Medic
27 Oct 05,, 06:59
I have absolutely no idea what is your major malfunction but be advised that there are those here who has seen alot more trigger time than you.

In fact, why is this freaking idiot unbanned?


And?

:rolleyes:

Warrior_Medic
27 Oct 05,, 07:00
Lighten up Francis :rolleyes:

You know, you could be just a little more polite to the members on this board, regardless of nationality.
Us civilian guys are going to get the impression that military personnel are all a bunch of arrogant braggarts that like to show up and throw their service record, citations and military expertise around.

Yeah, and?

I couldn't care less about you Starbucks sipping losers.

Warrior_Medic
27 Oct 05,, 07:03
The Iraqi military is stronger than the Indian military? I seriously doubt it.

Who's gonna take a bunch of Indian teenagers like you seriously?

Atleast people around the world have heard of Iraqis once military might. Nobody cares about India, a country that can't even feed its 1 billion people and yet brags about it's ghetto military LIKE IT'S EVER DONE ANY HARM TO any country (your skirmish with China and Pakistan a thousand years ago is a freaking joke).

Damn, will somebody nuke these retarded ass upstart third world countries already.

lwarmonger
27 Oct 05,, 07:30
Let me know when you're done with boot camp and actually have something akin to a DD214.


Basic.

It's called basic training. Who calls it "boot camp?" Not only a liar, a bad one.

:rolleyes:

lemontree
27 Oct 05,, 07:56
Dude, STFU. I don't need to "last", I've been there done that.

Like hell you have done anything except shag in the bush. Bloody wanna be. Seems you are another delinquent PDF member :rolleyes: ;)

bull
27 Oct 05,, 09:09
Captain,

You do realize he cannot answered. He's banned.

he is not

ajaybhutani
27 Oct 05,, 11:40
he is not
he was banned for 3 days..

ajaybhutani
27 Oct 05,, 11:45
Yeah...yeah (kid).

Let me know when you're done with boot camp and actually have something akin to a DD214.

Armchair 5 star generals here :rolleyes:

I m not in military and dont even intend to. After all its all about the profession one wants to join.
If passing a boot camp is the only way u consider anyone to be worthwhile . then i dont think u should use the weapons given to you because they all are made by scientists and engineers .. most of them never visited the " boot camp".

vishv29
09 Nov 05,, 10:00
theres no way that we can fight against usaf even for 2 days.mki's,miraaj2000,mig29 wont be able to do much in the absence of awacs.besides we fall short both at quality and quantity.usaf can easily very easily destroy iaf.and people here on the forum, who are americans know it very well.they just want their airforce to be appriciated by everyone thats why they have started this stupid thread.

with love

vishal............................................ ..

giggs88
09 Nov 05,, 10:40
Let me know when you've passed bootcamp.

The Army doesn't have a bootcamp. The Marines and the Navy do. I have never seen a Soldier say "bootcamp". They always refer to it as "basic".

The Army has BCT (Basic Combat Training). Do a little more research. The tidbits are the ones that get you. :rolleyes:

giggs88
09 Nov 05,, 10:41
they just want their airforce to be appriciated by everyone thats why they have started this stupid thread.

:rolleyes:

Knaur Amarsh
04 Nov 09,, 12:36
05-09 ..... the kittens, someone help the kittens :eek: Jeez I can't see this, too painful :(

Deltacamelately
04 Nov 09,, 12:46
05-09 ..... the kittens, someone help the kittens :eek: Jeez I can't see this, too painful :(
God just killed one.

Knaur Amarsh
04 Nov 09,, 13:03
God just killed one.

Just 1 ?! I hope the GS is as merciful as God then :redface:

YellowFever
04 Nov 09,, 14:27
Just 1 ?! I hope the GS is as merciful as God then :redface:

What are you talking about?

I just troll around this place so I can see the dead chick pic.

Gunny....indulge me please!

Knaur Amarsh
04 Nov 09,, 14:36
What are you talking about?

I just troll around this place so I can see the dead chick pic.

Gunny....indulge me please!

Well YellowBelly, you must be exceptionally dumb not to have figured this out already - The Gunny Doesn't Work That Way :tongue:

You don't tell the GS what to post and how to INDULDGE you pal, he does it of his own accord, like the Chuck Norris of WAB one might say.

Here be you expecting dead chick pics and the GS might decide to post something completely different.

Something that'd ruin both your appetite and sleep, like pics of a certain lady or Tankie crossdressing, who knows.

Things that I'd rather not talk about.

tankie
04 Nov 09,, 14:56
Well YellowBelly, you must be exceptionally dumb not to have figured this out already - The Gunny Doesn't Work That Way :tongue:

You don't tell the GS what to post and how to INDULDGE you pal, he does it of his own accord, like the Chuck Norris of WAB one might say.

Here be you expecting dead chick pics and the GS might decide to post something completely different.

Something that'd ruin both your appetite and sleep, like pics of a certain lady or Tankie crossdressing, who knows.

Things that I'd rather not talk about.

well dont then :P

tankie
04 Nov 09,, 14:57
theres no way that we can fight against usaf even for 2 days.mki's,miraaj2000,mig29 wont be able to do much in the absence of awacs.besides we fall short both at quality and quantity.usaf can easily very easily destroy iaf.and people here on the forum, who are americans know it very well.they just want their airforce to be appriciated by everyone thats why they have started this stupid thread.

with love

vishal............................................ ..

I see he had his love rejected , maybe he was giving it to the Mjr Deltadropshort :rolleyes:

Maxor
04 Nov 09,, 15:09
As of right now and for the next 8 years at least of production for both nations the US winds easily hands down. I expect India to narrow the gap but in terms of real conflict both sides know that the US air corps. (USAF, USN, USMC.) defeat the indians while taking sustainable losses.


Now stop with the NecroPostinghttp://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/files/2009/07/necrophilia.png

Versus
04 Nov 09,, 15:18
Wow 15 pages....man, this thread is worthy of Titanic saga. Couldn't resist to add my little contribution to it :) I would like to start similar thread, ummm..let's see..Serbian Army versus Army of ants from the nearby forest. My bets are on the ants.

tankie
04 Nov 09,, 15:20
Necrophilia and masochism , is that like flogging a dead horse .:rolleyes:

Mohan
04 Nov 09,, 15:29
:biggrin:In before this is closed

YellowFever
04 Nov 09,, 15:36
Wow 15 pages....man, this thread is worthy of Titanic saga. Couldn't resist to add my little contribution to it :) I would like to start similar thread, ummm..let's see..Serbian Army versus Army of ants from the nearby forest. My bets are on the ants.

How can you take this subject so lightly?

First we would have to determine what kind of warplanes the ants would be flying.

ZekeJones
04 Nov 09,, 20:10
How can you take this subject so lightly?

First we would have to determine what kind of warplanes the ants would be flying.

None, they have their own wings.:biggrin:

Maxor
04 Nov 09,, 21:14
only the queens and the males, the males are rare and everyone knows we don't let queens in the armed services.

Versus
04 Nov 09,, 21:26
How can you take this subject so lightly?

First we would have to determine what kind of warplanes the ants would be flying.

Unless they form an alliance with wasps and hornets, situation is getting critical. But I bet they will try some underground tactic and undermine our tank force which consists out of 3.2 tanks. That is three tanks and one turret. They use it on time share basis and it is very efficient tactic. When the enemy sees three tanks coming at him and the turret bouncing between them, the first thing he will do is to seek a psychiatrist. Armored fist basketball with the turret, but than it wouldn't be a basketball it would be umm turretball or basket turret???

gunnut
04 Nov 09,, 22:37
IBCD (in before Celine Dion)...formerly IBDC (in before dead chick)...

:biggrin:

YellowFever
06 Nov 09,, 22:08
Damn.....I think the Gunny is losing his touch.

This thread would've had a dead chick pic and a stern
lecture days ago if he was in his top form. :(

highsea
06 Nov 09,, 22:33
^^^ Maxor had his back (see previous page)

Gun Grape
06 Nov 09,, 22:49
A big thanks to Maxor.

Guys, the Gunny cannot be everywhere. A heads ups every once in a while would be nice.

I see the offender has 7 post and this is his second necro. Just ban him and get it over with.

Dead kitty time

ZekeJones
06 Nov 09,, 22:50
only the queens and the males, the males are rare and everyone knows we don't let queens in the armed services.

Only if they don't tell.

diablo49
06 Nov 09,, 23:06
:))Posting in epic thread. :))

Knaur Amarsh
06 Nov 09,, 23:21
Guys, the Gunny cannot be everywhere.

Noo! :eek::eek::(:(:eek::eek:

Next we ll be finding out that the tooth fairy is a mythical creature and Tankie in fact does take a bath once in a while.

Parihaka
06 Nov 09,, 23:43
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/administration/9119d1195979168-useful-pictures-barnes-lock.jpg