PDA

View Full Version : Outrageous



Pages : [1] 2

Minskaya
05 Jan 14,, 11:50
Gang rape, killing of teen in India sparks outrage
January 4, 2014

KOLKATA, India (AP) — The father of a teenage girl who was allegedly gang raped and later died after being set on fire in eastern India is demanding a federal inquiry into the case, which has renewed public outrage over sexual violence in the country. Hundreds of people protested Friday in the West Bengal city of Kolkata, accusing state authorities of failing to protect the family after the 16-year-old girl went to police in October to report she had been raped twice by the same gang. The state's urban development minister defended the police response, noting that six suspects had been arrested in the rapes and another two for allegedly setting the girl on fire. "The state government has taken appropriate action in this case," said the minister, Firhad Hakim. The girl reported being gang raped and left in a field near her home in late October in the Madhyamgram suburb of Kolkata, formerly Calcutta. The next day she was allegedly abducted by the same gang and raped again before being left unconscious by railway tracks, police said. The girl's father, a taxi driver, said last week that his daughter was set on fire on Dec. 23 after being threatened with violence if she did not withdraw her police complaint. She died from her injuries on Wednesday.
Source: USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/04/gang-rape-killing-of-teen-in-india-sparks-outrage/4317079/)

Additional low-lights collocated from Indian and foreign media...

- Local police strenuously attempted to dissuade her from filing rape charges and employed delaying tactics
- Police stood by as the rapist-thugs threatened the family at home demanding they drop charges and leave the area
- Police also told the family to pack up and go back to Bihar
- The landlady (related to one of the thugs) heard her screams for help after being set on fire but did nothing
- The local hospital refused to transfer her to another hospital with a burn unit
- Police originally said her death was a suicide when they knew (for six days) that it was a murder
- The police squabbled with the family about cremation arrangements and tried to illegally seize the body
- The Calcutta government (Mamata Bannerjee) defends police actions and slams the negative coverage as a political conspiracy

Unfortunately, this is not fiction. It is reported across the globe in print and the internet (http://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl=dBxx8NyBO4y-4yMTaywThGho9pPGM&ned=us&siidp=null).

S2
05 Jan 14,, 11:58
I don't "like" this.

Not one bit. I am, though, appreciative of you for bringing this again to our attention. Your summary made for absolutely horrific reading but pales compared to the horror experienced by this poor, unfortunate child.

May shame forever cloud the lives of all who abetted this senseless tragedy.

Oracle
05 Jan 14,, 17:11
Wonder why Indians on this board didn't post this. False nationalism? Maybe.

These scums need to be thrown away to month old hungry dogs. India shining, again, my arse.

May you R.I.P sister.

Oracle
05 Jan 14,, 17:15
Facebook friend rapes woman promising marriage in Surat (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/surat/Facebook-friend-rapes-woman-promising-marriage-in-Surat/articleshow/28445845.cms)

And if that is not enough, here is another one:

Polish woman raped by cab driver (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2014-01-04/delhi/45859643_1_cab-driver-polish-woman-central-delhi)

Why don't we have an Indian Hall of Shame in here?

Oracle
05 Jan 14,, 17:22
Source: USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/04/gang-rape-killing-of-teen-in-india-sparks-outrage/4317079/)

Additional low-lights collocated from Indian and foreign media...

- Local police strenuously attempted to dissuade her from filing rape charges and employed delaying tactics
- Police stood by as the rapist-thugs threatened the family at home demanding they drop charges and leave the area
- Police also told the family to pack up and go back to Bihar
- The landlady (related to one of the thugs) heard her screams for help after being set on fire but did nothing
- The local hospital refused to transfer her to another hospital with a burn unit
- Police originally said her death was a suicide when they knew (for six days) that it was a murder
- The police squabbled with the family about cremation arrangements and tried to illegally seize the body
- The Calcutta government (Mamata Bannerjee) defends police actions and slams the negative coverage as a political conspiracy

Unfortunately, this is not fiction. It is reported across the globe in print and the internet (http://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl=dBxx8NyBO4y-4yMTaywThGho9pPGM&ned=us&siidp=null).

After she was raped once, she went to the local police station to file an FIR. Police refused, on her way back she was raped again. And this happened in West Bengal, the CM 'Mamata Banerjee' a lady, who promised 'poriborton=reforms' if the Left were kicked out. This lady has no shame, she is utterly corrupt, autocratic and despicable. I hope she lies dead on a sewage canal. Even worms won't eat her.

Double Edge
05 Jan 14,, 17:25
Source: USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/04/gang-rape-killing-of-teen-in-india-sparks-outrage/4317079/)

Additional low-lights collocated from Indian and foreign media...

1) Local police strenuously attempted to dissuade her from filing rape charges and employed delaying tactics.

2) Police stood by as the rapist-thugs threatened the family at home demanding they drop charges and leave the area

3) Police also told the family to pack up and go back to Bihar

4) The landlady (related to one of the thugs) heard her screams for help after being set on fire but did nothing

5) The local hospital refused to transfer her to another hospital with a burn unit
6) Police originally said her death was a suicide when they knew (for six days) that it was a murder
7) The police squabbled with the family about cremation arrangements and tried to illegally seize the body
8) The Calcutta government (Mamata Bannerjee) defends police actions and slams the negative coverage as a political conspiracy
1) i've wondered about why they refuse to take the case, reasons offered are the police want to keep crime rate stats down. This is bunk. The reason is simpler. It's safer for the victim not to register the case if the victim is of limited means. Why ? because the cops don't have the resources to protect her 24/7. Multiply as applicable by number of rape complaints for the year, scale it up to the state level and then take it to the national level.

2) if they did not register the complaint there should be no reason for any threats.

3) Good advice, she'd still be alive today had this been done.

4) Why was she set on fire if a complaint was not taken. She must have got the case registered and the predictable followed.

5) Too late to save her.

6) Damage limitation.

7) ?

8) Anything that makes Mamata look bad is a political conspiracy.


Unfortunately, this is not fiction. It is reported across the globe in print and the internet (http://news.google.com/news/rtc?ncl=dBxx8NyBO4y-4yMTaywThGho9pPGM&ned=us&siidp=null).
I believe it :frown:

What's missing in the article is whether the perps have been apprehended. This is a murder case now.

anil
05 Jan 14,, 17:38
Welcome to the world of coalition politics

The bastards are probably politically connected. There are some things which will not change. These same people will vote her(mamata banerjee) back in power next election. We just have to make peace with the current order of things. http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/smilies/confused0071.gif


Why don't we have an Indian Hall of Shame in here?
I hear sansani is looking for a new anchor

Double Edge
05 Jan 14,, 18:27
The bastards are probably politically connected. There are some things which will not change.
We will know if they are named.

Though all that's required is a sufficient mismatch of means between perp & victim.


These same people will vote her(mamata banerjee) back in power next election.
Mamata has had a mixed record. What makes you so certain ?

Dreadnought
06 Jan 14,, 00:07
Does one question why I say give the girls a gun and let them do a service apparently no one else will do? I bet rapes drop instantly.

antimony
06 Jan 14,, 05:52
Does one question why I say give the girls a gun and let them do a service apparently no one else will do? I bet rapes drop instantly.

Oh no, we are all peace loving people and guns are bad, blah blah blah.

I am sick of it. :mad::slap:

sated buddha
06 Jan 14,, 05:56
Oh no, we are all peace loving people and guns are bad, blah blah blah.

I am sick of it. :mad::slap:

As a parent of school going kids, even of daughters, I firmly believe that we are the better for it.

bolo121
06 Jan 14,, 06:01
As a parent of school going kids, even of daughters, I firmly believe that we are the better for it.

erm why exactly?
Pols, goondas, and everyone with money are all tooled up.
Its only us targets who are unarmed.

sated buddha
06 Jan 14,, 06:09
erm why exactly?
Pols, goondas, and everyone with money are all tooled up.
Its only us targets who are unarmed.

How many school shootings do you hear of in India? Are you a parent? Just asking.

bolo121
06 Jan 14,, 06:16
How many school shootings do you hear of in India? Are you a parent? Just asking.

Am about to be a parent soon.
In india the shootings are usually of innocents by well connected people/goondas/police with guns.
We should at least have option to shoot back.

As I am not American cant comment on sandy hook style stuff.

sated buddha
06 Jan 14,, 07:00
Am about to be a parent soon.

Then we cannot have this discussion on the same level playing field perception wise.

Yes we are not perfect, far from it. But the worst I have to worry about when my kids go to school is hair yanking and nail gouging when things get realy rough. And my girls can give at least as good as they get, so even that has been a rarity.

I dread the day, if ever, when Indians get what you are wishing for.

Officer of Engineers
06 Jan 14,, 07:02
I dread the day, if ever, when Indians get what you are wishing for.Why? You can't be trusted?

sated buddha
06 Jan 14,, 07:04
Why? You can't be trusted?

I guess about as much as people of any gun owning culture can be trusted.

Trust breaks down when the unhinged come to town. With guns.

Officer of Engineers
06 Jan 14,, 07:11
The unhinged will always find something. We're lucky that movie and tv cultures have concentrated on the firearm as the weapon of choice for the idiot. It is much harder to kill with a firearm than it is with a bottle of gasoline.

antimony
06 Jan 14,, 07:33
How many school shootings do you hear of in India? Are you a parent? Just asking.

Have you checked the stats on murders withouts guns? How are they looking?

By the way, I am a parent, twice.

I have already started training my elder daughter on the right way to hold a firearm, with trigger control and all that and hope to take her shooting soon. If the fateful day comes when someone tries to do them harm, I hope they would be armed and can protect themselves.

antimony
06 Jan 14,, 07:34
I guess about as much as people of any gun owning culture can be trusted.

Trust breaks down when the unhinged come to town. With guns.

The unhinged are legally forbidden from owning guns. How has that worked out?

sated buddha
06 Jan 14,, 07:48
By the way, I am a parent, twice.

I have already started training my elder daughter on the right way to hold a firearm, with trigger control and all that and hope to take her shooting soon. If the fateful day comes when someone tries to do them harm, I hope they would be armed and can protect themselves.

Your kids have to grow up and go to school in the US. Mine in India. There is a big difference. Were I in the US (as many of my now gun owning friends are), I might have needed to do what you are doing.

I am happy that I do not need to. And I hope it stays that way.

I am not being judgmental or talking down to you in any way here, I hope you can appreciate. I am just reminiscing the decision my wife and I took about 18 years ago now when we were still going around and were on the cusp of the decision to emigrate jointly or stay behind. This was one of the factors we discussed at the time, both of us having many relatives in the US who had moved there from the late 60s to early 70s.


The unhinged are legally forbidden from owning guns. How has that worked out?

Yet a huge number of unhinged and the criminal do have access to and ownership of guns. Such is not the case in India. Because the access is controlled. As are the laws governing licensing and ownership. But more of the former than the latter admittedly.

Minskaya
06 Jan 14,, 09:05
2) if they did not register the complaint there should be no reason for any threats.
This is convoluted thinking. What you suggest turns the victim into a perpetrator. It also suggests that thugs may rape with entitlement and impunity.

Failure to report rape also exposes additional women to serial sexual predators.

Bigfella
06 Jan 14,, 10:10
Is there any chance we can limit this to discussing the issue of rape in India? The moment it becomes a 'pro/anti-gun' thread it will become a total train wreck that swamps the very important topic in the OP. Can we shift the gun argument to a separate thread that can be locked when it degenerates into the predictable, repetitive squabble?

Minskaya
06 Jan 14,, 10:27
Please stay on topic -- refer to the OP (Post #1)

Double Edge
06 Jan 14,, 10:44
This is convoluted thinking. What you suggest turns the victim into a perpetrator. It also suggests that thugs may rape with entitlement and impunity.

Failure to report rape also exposes additional women to serial sexual predators.
Yes it does allow rapists to get away and makes serial rapists out of them and they need to pick their victims carefully if they want to stay in the game.

But i suspect its the leading reason as to why the cops delay to register rape cases to begin with. Can the victim protect herself from the aftermath or not cause the state cannot do it.

If there isn't that much of a mismatch between perp & victim the case does get registered and acted upon. In villages, if the elders decide to act the rapist could get lynched without the cops even getting involved. Jungle justice takes over.

What this means is those that are weak are the most vulnerable. This is disgraceful but what is the solution ?

If the resources are not present how is the funding to be found. It comes out of local body taxes. Are the people going to agree to an increase in those taxes ? no. As it is those taxes do not go very far to begin with. Hiring more cops is not on the agenda. Empowering cops even less so.

Minskaya
06 Jan 14,, 12:19
Yes it does allow rapists to get away and makes serial rapists out of them and they need to pick their victims carefully if they want to stay in the game.

But i suspect its the leading reason as to why the cops delay to register rape cases to begin with. Can the victim protect herself from the aftermath or not cause the state cannot do it.

If there isn't that much of a mismatch between perp & victim the case does get registered and acted upon. In villages, if the elders decide to act the rapist could get lynched without the cops even getting involved. Jungle justice takes over.

What this means is those that are weak are the most vulnerable. This is disgraceful but what is the solution ?

If the resources are not present how is the funding to be found. It comes out of local body taxes. Are the people going to agree to an increase in those taxes ? no. As it is those taxes do not go very far to begin with. Hiring more cops is not on the agenda. Empowering cops even less so.
Unlimited human prey to be assaulted, abused, and then jettisoned like garbage. What can one say beyond... A shameful situation.

Dreadnought
06 Jan 14,, 16:05
I guess about as much as people of any gun owning culture can be trusted.

Trust breaks down when the unhinged come to town. With guns.

Buddha, It seems apparent there is already a MAJOR trust issue between parents like yourself and the way these situations are being treated. The girls it seems are being treated like second class citizens.

I wouldnt say that giving them a gun to carry will indeed fix the problem, but when some important persons son is shot for raping a girl or being a part of that "gang" then perhaps a more focused light will be shown upon this problem and a solution can be found.

Until then I say fight fire with fire, level the playing field. Atleast for their own protection.

You need not use lethal force, rubber bullets hurt like hell. And they leave nice welts. Easy to identify your attacker.

Doktor
06 Jan 14,, 16:41
You can send the girls in armored columns to school or to the shops and then back home it wont solve the problem.

I am more intrigued on why and how the males come to the idea of a gang rape. Police not being able to cope (for now) with this is not causation. Sure it encourages some of them, but there is more to it. Is this new phenomena in India? Or even global?

antimony
06 Jan 14,, 18:35
Your kids have to grow up and go to school in the US. Mine in India. There is a big difference. Were I in the US (as many of my now gun owning friends are), I might have needed to do what you are doing.


Lets carry the gun discussion somewhere else, in deference to the mods.

Regarding the topic, apart from the general problem of raising the profile of girls, I believe giving girls the tools to take care of themselves will also mitigate the problem.

I will not always be around for my daughters, but my only hope is that if any SOB decides to do them harm, then he finds himself swiftly bobbitized.

Firestorm
07 Jan 14,, 01:38
Yet another case which exposes the deeply ingrained "blame the victim" mentality amongst the Police in India, along with their hideous incompetence of course.

The only "good" thing about this case seems to be that half the political parties in India have gotten involved, and the two accused are in police custody. So justice might yet be done, even though it won't bring back the poor girl. The girl's father is now apparently going to meet the President of India to rightfully complain about the treatment meted out to him and his family.

Victim's father to meet President Pranab Mukherjee on Jan 07 (http://zeenews.india.com/news/west-bengal/bengal-gang-rape-victim-s-father-to-meet-president-protests-on_901545.html)

Excerpts about the heavy political involvement.



Meanwhile, political parties and organisations continued to hit the streets demanding punishment of the culprits and denouncing the administrative and police "apathy" towards the girl's family.

Singer-turned-dissident Trinamool Congress MP Kabir Suman, virtually in tears over the tragedy, cried shame and penned a song condemning the police and the administration and highlighting the girl's fate.

A seven-member delegation of the Bihar unit of the Bharatiya Janata Party Saturday called on the family and assured them legal and financial help.

The Democratic Youth Federation of India - youth wing of the CPI-M - staged demonstrations in north Kolkata's busy Shayambazar five-point crossing and Behala Chowrasta in the south expressing "shame" over the happenings.

The CPI-M students' arm, Students Federation of India, has called a students' strike Jan 6 across the state.

The Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) filed a police complaint against police personnel who tried to coerce and threaten the victim's family to hand over the girl's death certificate so they could finish her last rites quietly.

"We have lodged a complaint at the airport police station against police officers, who, instead of helping the family members of the victim, put pressure on them to hand over her death certificate," said AAP leader Mukul Kesri.

The party would file a complaint against the state-run R.G. Kar Medical College and Hospital for alleged neglect in the treatment of the victim, admitted there with serious burn injuries Dec 23. She died Dec 31.

The AAP has also decided to take out a rally in the city Sunday against rising atrocities on women in the state.

They are of course using the case for their political benefit. But some good might come out of it unintentionally.



The police have slapped murder charges against two accused, now under custody, based on the girl's dying declaration that the duo set her ablaze.
The a-holes in uniform need to be locked up right beside the two accused.

Firestorm
07 Jan 14,, 01:51
- The Calcutta government (Mamata Bannerjee) defends police actions and slams the negative coverage as a political conspiracy

This part needs a little background I'm afraid. This Chief Minister of West Bengal is an absolutely paranoid lady who sees maoist assassins under every table and has a habit of loudly shouting "Conspiracy!!" in front of the press every few days. After this, I would have been surprised if she hadn't termed this a "conspiracy" to malign her government.

Unfortunately, the great state of West Bengal hasn't thrown up any other political options in the state besides the Communist nutcases and this lunatic.

sated buddha
07 Jan 14,, 07:52
Buddha, It seems apparent there is already a MAJOR trust issue between parents like yourself and the way these situations are being treated. The girls it seems are being treated like second class citizens.

I did not understand this bit Dreadnought. How are parents like myself (I'm guessing you mean parents of daughters?) to blame or are involved in the problem?


I wouldnt say that giving them a gun to carry will indeed fix the problem, but when some important persons son is shot for raping a girl or being a part of that "gang" then perhaps a more focused light will be shown upon this problem and a solution can be found.

Until then I say fight fire with fire, level the playing field. Atleast for their own protection.

I believe guns (in society) are like nukes (in the world). Sooner or later everyone in going to want to/be forced to have them. And then the shit is really going to hit the fan. I prefer India as it is for now. In terms of gun ownership and armed populace.


You need not use lethal force, rubber bullets hurt like hell. And they leave nice welts. Easy to identify your attacker.

Its a slippery slope from rubber to metal jacketed bullets. Girls in cities here are begining to carry pepper spray, either available online or in select department stores. Soon maybe those taser things will come in as well. I might pick up a couple the next time I'm in Singapore (not difficult to pick up there).


I am more intrigued on why and how the males come to the idea of a gang rape. Police not being able to cope (for now) with this is not causation. Sure it encourages some of them, but there is more to it. Is this new phenomena in India? Or even global?

Frustration, poverty, migrants living away from families for long periods of time (no sex), alcohol/drug binges preceding, all the way to rich/political kids cruising the streets in daddy's car/SUV looking for fresh prey.


Lets carry the gun discussion somewhere else, in deference to the mods.

Sure. I did not know this was a hot button topic which had been discussed here before.


Regarding the topic, apart from the general problem of raising the profile of girls, I believe giving girls the tools to take care of themselves will also mitigate the problem.

I will not always be around for my daughters, but my only hope is that if any SOB decides to do them harm, then he finds himself swiftly bobbitized.

Learning self defense, learning how to use common items (like pens, heels, etc.), pepper spray/mace. This is what is common here and what I plan for my daughters. That and good parenting, using your head and brains, being always self aware and never overly trusting, being in groups and not going to stupid places at stupid times, and using common sense. Guns are not the answer to rape. Because right now we have girls geting raped. Tomorrow you will have girls getting shot.

Firestorm
07 Jan 14,, 09:02
I am more intrigued on why and how the males come to the idea of a gang rape.

Some sort of twisted "Safety in Numbers" line of thinking I guess. They are all sickos, but being in a group emboldens them to do stuff they normally wouldn't for fear of retribution.



Police not being able to cope (for now) with this is not causation. Sure it encourages some of them, but there is more to it. Is this new phenomena in India? Or even global?
It is certainly not new in India. But the increasing spread of both mainstream and social media tends to provide much greater publicity to such shocking crimes than earlier possible. After the horrible rape-murder in Delhi, this issue has been on the forefront for a while and cases where the state authorities are clearly at fault in particular give rise to even more anger.

Minskaya
07 Jan 14,, 10:38
Two suspects thus far - Ratan Sil and Minta Sil - have been charged with rape and murder. They were landlords of the family and are said to have connections to the West Bengal TMC Government. Four others involved in the two gang-rapes of the girl are in custody.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jan 14,, 13:15
Learning self defense, learning how to use common items (like pens, heels, etc.), pepper spray/mace. This is what is common here and what I plan for my daughters. That and good parenting, using your head and brains, being always self aware and never overly trusting, being in groups and not going to stupid places at stupid times, and using common sense. Guns are not the answer to rape. Because right now we have girls geting raped. Tomorrow you will have girls getting shot.What you are describing is a fight, not self defence. In self defence, there is only one mindset. Kill or be killed.

This little girl is dead because she did not kill her attackers.

Doktor
07 Jan 14,, 13:30
What you are describing is a fight, not self defence. In self defence, there is only one mindset. Kill or be killed.

This little girl is dead because she did not kill her attackers.

Col,

Are you saying that if one tries to rape a girl she better kill him, then disable him and get away? Why? Fear from another attack?

sated buddha
07 Jan 14,, 13:44
What you are describing is a fight, not self defence. In self defence, there is only one mindset. Kill or be killed.

This little girl is dead because she did not kill her attackers.


Col,

Are you saying that if one tries to rape a girl she better kill him, then disable him and get away? Why? Fear from another attack?

Personally as a father I would go with the Colonel on this. My concern is that were the floodgates to open, and one thing leading to another they will eventually, then there are greater chances of goons/rich brats/politicians/godmen/other misc scum of the earth having guns compared to our girls and women having them. And then eventually everyone having them. And then we become a gun toting society. And fear that the next guy you vent on is going to draw a gun and shoot you dead. If you don't shoot him dead first. I'm sorry if this is veering back to the guns argument, but the discussion is evolving along those lines and I am responding accordingly. As other countries have shown, both the civilized ones as well as the lawless ones, there is simply no way to ensure only the good guys have guns.

Firestorm
07 Jan 14,, 13:46
The girl came from a poor family who could not have afforded to buy a gun even if they had been allowed to. We should keep this in mind when talking about importing the gun-culture of the US into India. Everybody can afford guns in the US. Most people in India have trouble arranging for three square meals a day.

sated buddha
07 Jan 14,, 13:48
The girl came from a poor family who could not have afforded to buy a gun even if they had been allowed to. We should keep this in mind when talking about importing the gun-culture of the US into India. Everybody can afford guns in the US. Most people in India have trouble arranging for three square meals a day.

Good point. This is the "access" I was talking about in a previous post. Its all about access and afordability, and less about legislation and enforcement. When you get down to it, gun culture is about pure economics. We have a country next door when you can get really high tech guns, or really sophisticated copies, at a pittance. There's a prime example.

Dreadnought
07 Jan 14,, 15:05
I did not understand this bit Dreadnought. How are parents like myself (I'm guessing you mean parents of daughters?) to blame or are involved in the problem?

What I implied is that there seems to be serious mistrust between parents and state/ political officials that can implement stiffer penalties if they chose too. It just seems they are not doing enough to protect the female population. The parents (like yourself) are no doubt outraged by this and by good nature do not trust them to do enough to protect the females any time soon.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jan 14,, 15:46
Col,

Are you saying that if one tries to rape a girl she better kill him, then disable him and get away? Why? Fear from another attack?I said the mindset. You may or may not kill the attacker but you better be willing to kill the attacker because he's may or may not let kill you after he's done the deed ... but you don't know that.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jan 14,, 15:48
Personally as a father I would go with the Colonel on this. My concern is that were the floodgates to open, and one thing leading to another they will eventually, then there are greater chances of goons/rich brats/politicians/godmen/other misc scum of the earth having guns compared to our girls and women having them. And then eventually everyone having them. And then we become a gun toting society. And fear that the next guy you vent on is going to draw a gun and shoot you dead. If you don't shoot him dead first. I'm sorry if this is veering back to the guns argument, but the discussion is evolving along those lines and I am responding accordingly. As other countries have shown, both the civilized ones as well as the lawless ones, there is simply no way to ensure only the good guys have guns.I'm not talking guns. I'm talking mindset. If you're not willing to kill your attacker, then open your legs and scream with pleasure and hope to hell that he enjoys himself enough to want to come back for more instead of killing a lousy laid.

No, there is no way to ensure only the good guys have guns but there is a way to ensure that the good guys will fight back with lethal force.

Firestorm
07 Jan 14,, 15:48
I did not understand this bit Dreadnought. How are parents like myself (I'm guessing you mean parents of daughters?) to blame or are involved in the problem?

What I implied is that there seems to be serious mistrust between parents and state/ political officials that can implement stiffer penalties if they chose too. It just seems they are not doing enough to protect the female population. The parents (like yourself) are no doubt outraged by this and by good nature do not trust them to do enough to protect the females any time soon.

The parents don't really come into the picture here. It would be no different if the girl had been an adult. This is basically a case of the police not doing their f*ckin jobs unless they are pilloried in the media and left with no choice. And it's not just rape, the police have f*cked up the prosecution of many crimes from murder to terrorism because of incompetence, meddling from their political masters or sheer stupidity. In rape cases, there is an added "blame the victim" dimension in play which is a result of a messed up mindset that can't possibly be limited to the cops alone. The cops are after all recruited from the general public.

tuna
07 Jan 14,, 16:30
As a father, I try to instill in my own daughter the mindset that she may take whatever actions she needs to in order to be safe. I don't instill a trust of the police or the idea of a "knight in shining armor" to save her, and try to steer her away from the fairy tales where someone saves the princess. I tell her, often, that the "golden rule" works both ways - so if someone tries to hurt her, they want to be hurt themselves. A proper response to bullies is a punch in the nose, and I don't give a flying f*** at a rolling doughnut what her teacher says.

She's 5. And she isn't picked on, or afraid.

Guns will come later - right now she has her mind, her OWN mind, something that parents, especially fathers, need to make sure their daughters possess.

Agnostic Muslim
07 Jan 14,, 16:41
Are you saying that if one tries to rape a girl she better kill him, then disable him and get away? Why? Fear from another attack?
Sexual assault is a violent physical assault on an individual - why shouldn't the victim treat it as a potentially life threatening assault and act to kill the assailant?

sated buddha
07 Jan 14,, 17:31
I did not understand this bit Dreadnought. How are parents like myself (I'm guessing you mean parents of daughters?) to blame or are involved in the problem?

What I implied is that there seems to be serious mistrust between parents and state/ political officials that can implement stiffer penalties if they chose too. It just seems they are not doing enough to protect the female population. The parents (like yourself) are no doubt outraged by this and by good nature do not trust them to do enough to protect the females any time soon.

Sadly this is true. Out here, more often than not, the police deal with you depending on where you stand in the pecking order and who you know, or might know. I've experienced the police as a student punk and I've experienced them as a respectable middle aged "uncle." And even as a upper middle class guy, to get them to actually move and not give you a tough time, you need to call in some strings. I cannot eve begin to imagine what a poor dad or mom would go through. I'm not saying we do not have honest officers, who do their duty. But what happens in the Indian scene is that more often than not you do not directly come into contact with the more educated officers - first second or even third.

Doktor
07 Jan 14,, 17:45
I said the mindset. You may or may not kill the attacker but you better be willing to kill the attacker because he's may or may not let kill you after he's done the deed ... but you don't know that.

I believe the mindset is there. Skills and training are lacking.

I base my opinion from the talks I had with various LEOs here. They all said they had hard time to shoot someone in the legs instead of torso.

Doktor
07 Jan 14,, 17:46
Sexual assault is a violent physical assault on an individual - why shouldn't the victim treat it as a potentially life threatening assault and act to kill the assailant?

Where I said it shouldn't?

sated buddha
07 Jan 14,, 17:54
She's 5. And she isn't picked on, or afraid.

Guns will come later - right now she has her mind, her OWN mind, something that parents, especially fathers, need to make sure their daughters possess.

Mine are 7 ad 12. And I wish I could keep them in their all- girls Convent school indefinitely ....

My older cousin's elder girl is now 16, and New Year's was spent in large part consuming whisky and listening to his woes and spluttering about clothes and boys .... :biggrin:

Agnostic Muslim
07 Jan 14,, 18:15
Where I said it shouldn't?
You appeared to be questioning the idea in your comment directed at OoE, hence my question, in turn, posed to you seeking a clarification of your stance on the use of deadly force by someone under immediate threat of sexual assault.

Doktor
07 Jan 14,, 18:19
You appeared to be questioning the idea in your comment directed at OoE, hence my question, in turn, posed to you seeking a clarification of your stance on the use of deadly force by someone under immediate threat of sexual assault.

I am trying to figure out if it is OK to train someone to be a killer, especially a young girl - is there another option?
Am fully aware about the other possibility, the girl to become a rape victim. Nothing more then that.

antimony
07 Jan 14,, 18:28
- The Calcutta government (Mamata Bannerjee) defends police actions and slams the negative coverage as a political conspiracy


I am somewhat ashamed to say that I and a lot of other rooted for her to come to power, because it meant that the crusty and corrupt communist government of 30 years would be thrown out.

After that it has been absolute bedlam. I personally believe she has descended into madness

tuna
07 Jan 14,, 20:06
I am trying to figure out if it is OK to train someone to be a killer, especially a young girl - is there another option?
Am fully aware about the other possibility, the girl to become a rape victim. Nothing more then that.

I see three options, not just for girls, but for anyone.
Sheep, wolf or cat.
The sheep and wolf (and sheepdog) have been overused on the internet so I won't bother explaining the obvious. The third option, of cat, is stolen from the website "corneredcat.com" - a firearms website geared toward women.
The cat has weapons, tooth and claw, that aren't brandished needlessly to impress or intimidate. The cat is content to find a piece of sunshine and lie in it. The cat for the most part will watch the world around it in amusement and not bother those that leave it alone, and is happy with affection. Unless and until the cat has reason to fear for itself or its kittens, then the teeth and claws are more than displayed, they are used.

Being aware of the wolves is first step in not being a sheep. Not everyone can or should be a sheepdog, but the will, tools and skill to protect yourself, as a cat would, helps to prevent victims.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jan 14,, 20:17
I am trying to figure out if it is OK to train someone to be a killer, especially a young girl - is there another option?Flight or fight. If flight is not possible then you better fight to live.

A water buffalo is a not natural killer but watch a pride of lions cornering it and see how much damage it will do.

troung
07 Jan 14,, 22:30
Flight or fight. If flight is not possible then you better fight to live.

A gang of at least a half dozen undersized malnourished Indian rapists vs. a sixteen year old girl.


This little girl is dead because she did not kill her attackers.

No she is dead because it appears at least six men raped her on two occasions then at least two men came back around and burned her to death. All the self defense classes in the world aren't going to overcome those numbers.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jan 14,, 23:08
No she is dead because it appears at least six men raped her on two occasions then at least two men came back around and burned her to death. All the self defense classes in the world aren't going to overcome those numbers.A COLT 45 is a fantastic equalizer.

troung
08 Jan 14,, 00:00
A COLT 45 is a fantastic equalizer.

If you own one, if you have gun laws which allow you to own one, if you have gun laws which enable you to carry it concealed, if you carry with it every second of the day, and if you don't get dropped by at least six rapists at the onset of the attack.


City of Joy to City of Rapes
The recent gang rape of a 16-year-old girl at Madhyamgram in Kolkata’s northern fringes sparked mass outrage.
By Soudhriti Bhabani | Mail Today – 16 hours ago

http://in.news.yahoo.com/city-of-joy-to-city-of-rapes-071422880.html

KOLKATA: Truth is stranger than fiction. Once called the city of culture and bhadralok, Kolkata’s fall from grace has been steady when it comes to safety of women. Worst, the irony is a woman chief minister rules West Bengal where she had come to power with the poll cry — ‘ Ma, Mati, Manush’ (mother, earth and mankind).

The recent gang rape of a 16-year-old girl at Madhyamgram in Kolkata’s northern fringes sparked mass outrage, with people from various walks of life coming out to protest the incident and police inaction. Going by the recent incidents of rape and molestation, one can infer that such offences increased in Kolkata and its vicinities since the Mamata Banerjee led Trinamool Congress government rode to power in the 2011 Assembly elections. An ‘unsafe’ Kolkata earned more notoriety when two foreign students were molested in separate incidents in 2013.

Theatre personality Kaushik Sen points out how the current government tactfully divided the civil society and the intelligentsia during its two- andhalf- years rule. “It is unfortunate that the intellectuals in Bengal are sharply divided. Naturally, the voice of protest is not that strong. The second factor is that the Opposition is so hopelessly shattered that the people are unable to find credibility in its protest too,” he said.

Sen condemned the indifferent attitude of the state government.

“I don’t understand why our CM, her Cabinet colleagues and top bureaucrats try to defend themselves whenever such rape cases are reported,” he added.

Political commentators pointed out that the tradition of indifference towards the rape victims exists since the time when the CPI (M)-led Left Front government held sway in West Bengal. Way back in 1990 when a UNICEF official was raped and murdered at Bantala, an upcoming leather complex at Kolkata’s southern fringes, then Chief Minister Jyoti Basu told the media: “Why did she go there? No one in her senses would.” Very little has changed in the city even after the TMC’s much- touted claim of bringing ‘poribartan’. Reacting to the Park Street and Kamduni rape cases, Mamata had said it was a ‘cooked up conspiracy’ by the Opposition to malign the image of her government.

In such traumatic cases, the Park Street rape victim felt, the entire society should react like a family and show compassion towards the survivor who becomes a victim of the social evil. “I believe people are reacting individually. It is absolutely pointless to tag any perpetrators politically. I am sure rapists don’t ask the victim which party she is voting for before committing the crime. Thus, the political blame- game must stop and people must raise their voice unitedly against it. The defensive approach of the state machinery is actually acting as immunity for criminals in the society,” she said.

According to an NCRB report, 30,942 cases of crime against women were reported in the state in 2012 — the highest in the country. West Bengal accounted for 12.67 per cent of the total crime committed against women in the country.

So the question which arises is how Kolkata has suddenly become so unsafe for women? “ The moral degradation has taken a bizarre shape in Bengal. Not just rape incidents but in many cases we have seen that people, mainly Trinamool supporters, who committed crimes, were rewarded by the party later. They are being offered plum posts in the organisations and outside so that they can roam scot- free,” painter Samir Aich said.

RAPE BECOMES A REGULAR AFFAIR

Park Street gang rape

In February 2012, a 37-year-old Anglo-Indian woman was sexually assaulted inside a moving car by some youths who befriended her at a night joint near Park Street. On the night of February 5, the victim was at a pub when a man offered her a ride home in his car. When she climbed in, there were two men in the car. But soon another three entered the vehicle. She was raped at gunpoint. The victim filed a police complaint on February 9.

Kamduni rape

A 20-year-old was abducted and raped in June 2013 while she was returning home at Kamduni village under Barasat police station area in Kolkata’s adjoining North 24- Parganas district. She succumbed to injuries later.

Madhyamgram gang rape

A 16-year-old girl was gang- raped twice in October 2012 at Madhyamgram in Kolkata’s northern fringes. She was first gang-raped near her house. Again she was forcibly taken away by the same gang and raped twice while she was returning home after lodging a complaint with the local police station. Six people have been arrested in connection with the case. Later, the victim was allegedly set afire by some members of the gang. The girl died on December 31, 2013, at a state-run hospital.

Rape of Irish woman

A 21-year-old Irish woman was allegedly raped in Kolkata in June last year. One person, identified as Sujoy Mitra, was arrested following a complaint lodged by the victim. Police said the woman, associated with a Darjeeling-based NGO, had invited Mitra to an upscale hotel to celebrate her birthday. After the party ended, the woman went to dropped an inebriated Mitra to his house in Kalighat, where he allegedly raped her. Mitra, according to the complaint, was drunk. The woman also suspected he was under the influence of drugs.

Doktor
08 Jan 14,, 00:03
Flight or fight. If flight is not possible then you better fight to live.
No problem there, I am just questioning the killer mindset. I don't have a daughter, I have a son, but if possible I'd teach him to stay out of troubles, not to kill someone. Unless totally necessary.


A water buffalo is a not natural killer but watch a pride of lions cornering it and see how much damage it will do.
What mindset is that?




I have one 'event' that occurred while we were late teens or early 20's...

We were sitting on the bar in one club. Some time after a very beautiful, toll girl entered accompanied with a very short guy. It was obvious they were a couple. They took a table and were chit-chatting. Next to their table there was a table with 5 guys all well hung. After a while everyone in the club realized that the guy has a mutated femalish (sp) voice. The guys from the next table started to harass the guy and were throwing insults towards him. The security approached warned the guys, but the couple said everything is fine, so the bouncers left. It lasted for over an hour and the couple behaved like they are the only ones in the club. They were chilled. So we thought "nothing to see here", continued our drinks and the talk with the barmen. Next thing I know the barmen (a friend of mine) said "Dudes, WTF, look at this shit and then we turn around to see all 5 guys from the next table down on the floor kicked by the girl. :biggrin:

Officer of Engineers
08 Jan 14,, 00:16
If you own one, if you have gun laws which allow you to own one, if you have gun laws which enable you to carry it concealed, if you carry with it every second of the day, and if you don't get dropped by at least six rapists at the onset of the attack.The mindset is identicle. If you have to go into the fight, go into the fight for the kill. Otherwise, open your legs and scream with pleasure.


No problem there, I am just questioning the killer mindset. I don't have a daughter, I have a son, but if possible I'd teach him to stay out of troubles, not to kill someone. Unless totally necessary.That is the point. If you cannot run, as opposed to will not run, then it is now totally necessary.

troung
08 Jan 14,, 00:38
The mindset is identicle. If you have to go into the fight, go into the fight for the kill. Otherwise, open your legs and scream with pleasure.

Sixteen year old girls in the developing world (or most places) on their way home aren't planning on going into a fight. Hell a sixteen year old in Muricca are allowed to carry firearms on their way home from school.

Six (at least) third world rapists will beat your typical sixteen year old girl - even with a few hours of self defense. classes.

Double Edge
08 Jan 14,, 00:43
Unlimited human prey to be assaulted, abused, and then jettisoned like garbage. What can one say beyond... A shameful situation.
The system cannot protect everybody.

To protect everybody requires funds which we cannot generate enough.

In the ideal case she would have been given police protection. Where is that to come from.

I have to ask whether it was established that she was raped. She could have been facing a death threat for other reasons.


Two suspects thus far - Ratan Sil and Minta Sil - have been charged with rape and murder. They were landlords of the family and are said to have connections to the West Bengal TMC Government. Four others involved in the two gang-rapes of the girl are in custody.
I'll believe the first part. They have the means.

The second one is going to take more time to establish.

Having connections is not the same as being involved in politics, that's a flat lout lose for anybody that isn't in the same league.

Officer of Engineers
08 Jan 14,, 00:57
Six (at least) third world rapists will beat your typical sixteen year old girl - even with a few hours of self defense. classes.I'm not talking about self defence classes. The only self defence class of worth is situational awareness but if you're caught like this girl, you have two choices, fight with what you got - rocks, sticks, anything ... or open your legs.

troung
08 Jan 14,, 03:34
I'm not talking about self defence classes. The only self defence class of worth is situational awareness but if you're caught like this girl, you have two choices, fight with what you got - rocks, sticks, anything ... or open your legs.

Short of alarming an angry pitchfork carrying mob she at their mercy. Though looking at how helpful the police/non-Gurkha bystanders seem to be in these stories I doubt the pitchfork carrying mob will help her out.

As for situational awareness - I spend a lot of time in the third world and that's all one has most of the time.

Officer of Engineers
08 Jan 14,, 03:58
Short of alarming an angry pitchfork carrying mob she at their mercy.How about a father with an AK-47? In case you've forgotten, I am a father of a baby girl and I have an aresnal.


Though looking at how helpful the police/non-Gurkha bystanders seem to be in these stories I doubt the pitchfork carrying mob will help her out.They did not stop the rape and they will not stop my vengenace.

lemontree
08 Jan 14,, 04:10
The only reason I have not commented on this thread is because such incidents make me sick and full of rage.
There is only one person to blame for lawlessness in Bengal and that is the Chief Minister - the people got the change that they wanted. Now Bengal has the same mafia raj as UP.

troung
08 Jan 14,, 04:15
How about a father with an AK-47? In case you've forgotten, I am a father of a baby girl and I have an aresnal.

We are not discussing a retired Canadian military officer with a weapon - but the developing world.

Great if the third world dad has an AK-47, is nearby to the scene of the crime and is armed at the time, and decides to use it on the mob. Though heavily armed fathers within earshot seem to be scarce in these stories.

Officer of Engineers
08 Jan 14,, 04:17
The only reason I have not commented on this thread is because such incidents make me sick and full of rage.Thank you, Captain, for sharing your rage. I cannot believe that there are fathers in India who would not avenge their daughters, THE LAW BE DAMNED!!!

Officer of Engineers
08 Jan 14,, 04:20
Great if the third world dad has an AK-47, is nearby to the scene of the crime and is armed at the time, and decides to use it on the mob. Though heavily armed fathers within earshot seem to be scarce in these stories.Are you serious, Troung. Are you freaking serious? You who advocate throwing stupid teachers to the wolves are now saying do nothing to girls being raped?

No one deserves to be raped. No one.

FUCK YOU!

Tronic
08 Jan 14,, 04:24
But i suspect its the leading reason as to why the cops delay to register rape cases to begin with. Can the victim protect herself from the aftermath or not cause the state cannot do it.

Nothing short of negligence of duty. Especially considering how many girls commit suicide out of shame or coercion by the perpetrators. Cops are anything but benevolent in such instances.


If there isn't that much of a mismatch between perp & victim the case does get registered and acted upon. In villages, if the elders decide to act the rapist could get lynched without the cops even getting involved. Jungle justice takes over.

When the victim and perps are both poor, cops either will let panchayats (village councils) do their thing, or the cops will act themselves if it isn't too much trouble. No one gives a damn about the poor.

When the victim is poor and the perps are rich or powerful, the cops won't do anything because it's too much trouble; especially since the cops themselves will get coerced by the mafias (business, underground or political). The lower level officers themselves are not sure if their bosses aren't already compromised and bought out. The police being in firm control of the politicians also exacerbates this problem. This results in a system where no one wants to rock the boat and act firmly against the perps.

Officer of Engineers
08 Jan 14,, 04:50
The system cannot protect everybody.Yes it can. The police is being freaking lazy. In the old days, protection means jail. You want police protection, you stay in the jail though the bars are unlocked and you come and go as you please ... just don't step outside of the jail.

It is obvious that even this little cheap scenario was not offerred to the little girl.

Minskaya
08 Jan 14,, 09:13
The system cannot protect everybody.
The first and foremost duty of any state is to protect her citizens from harm both within and without her borders.


To protect everybody requires funds which we cannot generate enough.
You can generate enough funds to engage mujaheddin in Kashmir but not enough to develop the means to protect mothers, daughters, sisters, wives?

Something is terribly wrong in your state and society.

Double Edge
08 Jan 14,, 14:03
The only reason I have not commented on this thread is because such incidents make me sick and full of rage.
Why ? on this board were we discuss conflict that involves organised & systematic killing of people do you lose the plot when the subject of rape come up. You're not the only one. If there's one topic that gets the goat of people here its the subject of rape. Anything else is fine, but not rape.

How are we to have a rational and informed discussion on the subject then. It's the same story if i discuss with some women in my family. They become borderline hysterical.


Yes it can. The police is being freaking lazy. In the old days, protection means jail. You want police protection, you stay in the jail though the bars are unlocked and you come and go as you please ... just don't step outside of the jail.

It is obvious that even this little cheap scenario was not offerred to the little girl.
I wanted to suggest this earlier but the concept of protective custody needs to be defined first. As does witness protection.


Nothing short of negligence of duty. Especially considering how many girls commit suicide out of shame or coercion by the perpetrators. Cops are anything but benevolent in such instances.
How free are the cops to act out of their own will in India ?

Because it seems to be if they do their job some politician is going to pull them up. If they don't well its the same story.

If the victim cannot be protected in the first instance then nothing more can be done. If we are unwilling to accept this then what can feasibly be done.


When the victim and perps are both poor, cops either will let panchayats (village councils) do their thing, or the cops will act themselves if it isn't too much trouble. No one gives a damn about the poor.

When the victim is poor and the perps are rich or powerful, the cops won't do anything because it's too much trouble; especially since the cops themselves will get coerced by the mafias (business, underground or political). The lower level officers themselves are not sure if their bosses aren't already compromised and bought out. The police being in firm control of the politicians also exacerbates this problem. This results in a system where no one wants to rock the boat and act firmly against the perps.
And there you have it. Law & order is a state subject which is zealously guarded.

Take terrorism, after 26/11 the home minister had a simple 3 step formula. An intel agency, a unit to go after terrorists in a pro-active manner and finally an investigative agency. The states shot down options 1 & 2 and all we are left with is what we can do after the fact.

Preventative action is not what we do or is something we do badly. More people have to die or rather keep on dying for things to change.

Dreadnought
08 Jan 14,, 14:37
A COLT 45 is a fantastic equalizer.

Or Sir, a .45 Derringer for those upclose and personel moments.;)

Double Edge
08 Jan 14,, 15:01
The first and foremost duty of any state is to protect her citizens from harm both within and without her borders.
We do better with big problems than silent ones. External threats over internal.

The term pre-emptive does not exist in our vocabulary.


You can generate enough funds to engage mujaheddin in Kashmir but not enough to develop the means to protect (some) mothers, daughters, sisters, wives?

Something is terribly wrong in your state and society.
Emphasis mine.

tuna
08 Jan 14,, 15:12
Or Sir, a .45 Derringer for those upclose and personel moments.;)

As stated before, however - the vicitm in this case was poor, and probably wouldn't be able to afford one. And a derringer in .45 is a handful for a man - not that this would be a range qualifying evet.

Maybe re-tool up the old .45 Liberator that was (or was supposed to be?) dropped in Occupied France for the Resistance. Give these to the girls like crackerjack prizes.

My favorite article Girls Just Wanna Have Guns - Doug Giles - Page full (http://townhall.com/columnists/douggiles/2010/12/04/girls_just_wanna_have_guns/page/full)

Firestorm
08 Jan 14,, 15:47
Double Edge,


How free are the cops to act out of their own will in India ?

While it is true that the cops in many cases are hamstrung by their political bosses when the perps have friends in high places, that is not the biggest problem in India by far. There is something seriously wrong in the way many Police officers in India (especially in the North) react to rape allegations. Their reaction many a times involves some variation of blame the victim.

A couple of Tehelka journalists had done a sting operation a couple of years ago on several cops in the National Capital Region to find out what they really feel about rape. (The irony here of course is now the head honcho of Tehelka himself is in custody for sexually assaulting his employee. ) Anyway, look at the results and weep. I did.

The rapes will go on (http://www.tehelka.com/the-rapes-will-go-on/)

This pretty much sums up the messed up brains of these cops (though there were some exceptions of course).


She asked for it.
It’s all about money.
They have made it a business.
It is consensual most of the time.

Now, as I said in one of my previous posts, the cops are recruited from the general public. So I can only conclude, that we as a society have failed miserably to change our attitude to this heinous crime and our attitudes towards women in general. Blaming the politicians won't cut it.

Officer of Engineers
08 Jan 14,, 15:55
Why ? on this board were we discuss conflict that involves organised & systematic killing of people do you lose the plot when the subject of rape come up. You're not the only one. If there's one topic that gets the goat of people here its the subject of rape. Anything else is fine, but not rape.Because fathers can see this happening to our little girls. That little girl had a father who is in very, very much pain. We can see ourselves in his place.

Doktor
08 Jan 14,, 15:59
Now, as I said in one of my previous posts, the cops are recruited from the general public. So I can only conclude, that we as a society have failed miserably to change our attitude to this heinous crime and our attitudes towards women in general. Blaming the politicians won't cut it.

Cops have different mentality then most of the general population. Especially those who went all the way trough the police training, not some 3-4 months course.

troung
08 Jan 14,, 18:34
Are you serious, Troung. Are you freaking serious? You who advocate throwing stupid teachers to the wolves are now saying do nothing to girls being raped? No one deserves to be raped. No one.

Not saying she had it coming, far from it, but AK-47 wielding fathers are in short supply in these stories. In the absence of one or a kurkhi wielding Gurkha within hacking range six guys (at least) will have their way with one sixteen year old. And if state authorities don't care then they might come back around and finish off what they started. Yes it would be great if Bishnu Shrestha was around to regulate but that's not the situation.

Normally I avoid these subjects because it devolves to posters thinking about what they would do had it been their daughter and had they been within murdering distance of the perps. That's not the scenario the facts present, it was a sixteen year old girl who got raped on two occasions by the same gang and later burned to death while the police allegedly decided to not do their jobs. The death here might have been prevented had the police done their jobs. There was no father with a AK-47, no cops to administer the beating from hell to the preps - nothing but at best uncaring state authorities, a violent gang of rapists and the gasoline they used to murder her.

What makes these stories jump out to me is the pack nature of the crime and the fact state agents seem to really not give a shit until forced by the press.

Minskaya
08 Jan 14,, 22:12
.... and the fact state agents seem to really not give a shit until forced by the press.
The bolded part above really burns my ass. In vivid contrast to the not-give-a-shit-police in India, Japanese law enforcement mobilizes thousands to hunt down an escaped rapist...



Japanese police mobilize 4,000 officers in search of escaped rape suspect
Jan 08, 2014

Kanagawa prefectural police said on Wednesday that it has activated 4,000 officers in search of Yuta Sugimoto, a 20-year-old kidnap and rape suspect who escaped from custody from the Yokohama District Public Prosecutors Office in Kawasaki on Tuesday afternoon. According to police, the suspect was arrested on charges of participating in abduction and gang rape. Sugimoto escaped from the prosecutors’ office during his meeting with a lawyer. On Wednesday, the authorities revealed that the escapee’s clothes were discovered in the garden of a nearby house. Because of this, the prefectural police have also mobilized 900 vehicles and two helicopters to help in the search and arrest of the suspect, this according to reports from NHK.
Source (http://japandailypress.com/japanese-police-mobilize-4000-officers-in-search-of-escaped-rape-suspect-0842087/)

Dreadnought
09 Jan 14,, 17:52
Is thinking a "shoot on sight" order should be weighed.

Doktor
09 Jan 14,, 18:18
I miss Jay. He would have come with another brilliant plan how to proceed.

Blademaster
09 Jan 14,, 20:32
Wonder why Indians on this board didn't post this. False nationalism? Maybe.

These scums need to be thrown away to month old hungry dogs. India shining, again, my arse.

May you R.I.P sister.


Oh really?? Then why don't you ask the good woman, Minksaya why she didn't post this news article and expressed outrage on this:

12 teenage boys arrested for alleged rape video | JPost | Israel News (http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Six-14-year-old-boys-arrested-for-alleged-gang-rape-of-girl-12-335778)

Please save your dramatics for elsewhere. Yes this is a very appalling crime and the rapists need to be heavily punished and the police heavily punished. But don't try to burnish/pander your credentials by decrying your countrymen in an international forum for not posting this news when others have not done so.

Blademaster
09 Jan 14,, 20:34
The first and foremost duty of any state is to protect her citizens from harm both within and without her borders.


You can generate enough funds to engage mujaheddin in Kashmir but not enough to develop the means to protect mothers, daughters, sisters, wives?

Something is terribly wrong in your state and society.

Before you continue down this road and start criticizing us, why don't you respond to this?

12 teenage boys arrested for alleged rape video | JPost | Israel News (http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Six-14-year-old-boys-arrested-for-alleged-gang-rape-of-girl-12-335778)

antimony
09 Jan 14,, 20:43
Before you continue down this road and start criticizing us, why don't you respond to this?

12 teenage boys arrested for alleged rape video | JPost | Israel News (http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Six-14-year-old-boys-arrested-for-alleged-gang-rape-of-girl-12-335778)

Blade,

I am not sure why you would get jumpy over this. Why does it matter what happens in Israel? We Indians have shit in our house we need to take care of.

Obviously I hope that nothings like this happens anywhere, but the problems in our society are quite glaring; we should admit, introspect and correct. There is no pride in pointing the follies of others.

Blademaster
09 Jan 14,, 20:54
Blade,

I am not sure why you would get jumpy over this. Why does it matter what happens in Israel? We Indians have shit in our house we need to take care of.

Obviously I hope that nothings like this happens anywhere, but the problems in our society are quite glaring; we should admit, introspect and correct. There is no pride in pointing the follies of others.

Notice the words by her, "There is terribly wrong in your state and society," presuming that there is nothing wrong in her society and that she is acting mighty and high and crowing. She needs to remember that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I am not condoning what happened in India. It is a very shameful incident/episode and all remedies must be undertaken to correct this situation but don't be fool that India is the only nation that has this kind of problem. Where she is from has that kind of problem but you do not see us sermonizing Minksaya and others for the wrongs and ills of their society.

And moreso, what is the point to Oracle's crying for the need of self flagellation by Indians and others for not bringing this up in this forum and how we have to walk in shame? It is childish grandstanding to the point of being absurd.

troung
09 Jan 14,, 21:29
Before you continue down this road and start criticizing us, why don't you respond to this?

Sometimes I wonder if your parents are brother and sister.
The Israelis appear to have taken the allegation seriously and rounded the dudes up.

12 teenage boys arrested for alleged rape video | JPost | Israel News (http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Six-14-year-old-boys-arrested-for-alleged-gang-rape-of-girl-12-335778)

Tel Aviv police said Sunday the case is highly a sensitive and severe one, which they have placed at the top of their priorities. The story came to their attention just recently, when police received a video of the act.

Police said the girl was not dragged into the school or violently forced there against her will, rather, that she was pressured and unable to give her consent and unable to express her opposition to the acts.

They didn't send her away, they didn't suggest she drop the charges and move, they didn't stand by and allow threats of violence to occur, they didn't illegally try to seize her corpse, they didn't try to rule a murder a suicide. They took an allegation seriously and arrested the alleged rapists and the victim is alive.

The crime at issue in the OP its than "just" the two gang rapes of the same victim by the same gang which disgusts people. Are you really this damn stupid? I mean seriously. I don't know if extreme nationalism turns people into mouth breathing morons, if it attracts the mouth breathing morons - or somewhere in between.

Officer of Engineers
09 Jan 14,, 21:59
I am not condoning what happened in India. It is a very shameful incident/episode and all remedies must be undertaken to correct this situation but don't be fool that India is the only nation that has this kind of problem. Where she is from has that kind of problem but you do not see us sermonizing Minksaya and others for the wrongs and ills of their society.So a father from another country cannot express sorrow for the loss of another father's little girl and anger at the perps who has done this that father's little girl?

No, I don't see Indian. I see a father who lost his little girl and the pain he must feel.

Blademaster
09 Jan 14,, 22:10
So a father from another country cannot express sorrow for the loss of another father's little girl and anger at the perps who has done this that father's little girl?

No, I don't see Indian. I see a father who lost his little girl and the pain he must feel.

You are taking my words out of context. I said nothing of the kind. Reread what I wrote. I said this kind of rape must be punished but I did not go out and say how dysfunctional and wrong the Israel state/society is. You need to reread what Minksaya wrote and understand where I am coming from.

Bigfella
09 Jan 14,, 23:48
You are taking my words out of context. I said nothing of the kind. Reread what I wrote. I said this kind of rape must be punished but I did not go out and say how dysfunctional and wrong the Israel state/society is. You need to reread what Minksaya wrote and understand where I am coming from.

We all know where you are coming from. Same place as always.

YellowFever
10 Jan 14,, 01:53
Hmm....

This thread ranks about a 6 in the potential "break out the popcorn emoticon...this is gonna be good" meter.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 02:14
Before you continue down this road and start criticizing us, why don't you respond to this?

12 teenage boys arrested for alleged rape video | JPost | Israel News (http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Six-14-year-old-boys-arrested-for-alleged-gang-rape-of-girl-12-335778)

I think Indians do not need to show them the mirror and pull them down from their not so outrageous moral horse. This forum will be then spammed counting threads on rapes happening in the western world; where at some countries they are even allowed to carry weapons.

Test run : Israel: Only Nation that Systematically Arrests, Abuses, Tortures, Rapes, Kills Children | Veterans Today (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/24/israel-only-nation-that-systematically-arrests-abuses-tortures-rapes-and-kills-children/)

Israel must fight the rape plague (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.534205)

troung
10 Jan 14,, 02:55
Like roaches - first BM now this idiot. Can't be something in the water as neither one of you characters wishes to live anywhere near India.



Test run : Israel: Only Nation that Systematically Arrests, Abuses, Tortures, Rapes, Kills Children | Veterans Today

Israel must fight the rape plague

1. Veterans today is an anti-Semitic wingnut site. So to down play cases Indian police not giving a flying fuck about gang rapes until the media smokes them out - you post anti-Semitic propaganda. Seriously anti Semitic propaganda. We are not talking about an article which is critical of Israeli policy or even a one sides hit piece - you posted the shit from a website which makes moderate supporters of a Palestinian state cringe. You are a dumbass. An absolute dumbass.
2. You seem to miss the point of the outrage.

Between the two of you ignorant fools...

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 03:42
Like roaches - first BM now this idiot. Can't be something in the water as neither man wishes to live anywhere near India.



1. Veterans today is an anti-Semitic wingnut site. So to down play cases Indian police not giving a flying fuck about gang rapes until the media smokes them out - you post anti-Semitic propaganda. Dumbass. Absolute dumbass.
2. You seem to miss the point of the outrage.

I know what is your interest is in spewing venom against India; it is habit encouraged by Indians themselves. Have you seen any Indian posting negative news about USA or Israel when there is plenty material available? Heck we even did not post threads about China when one member was on spree of flame bait.

I have spent enough time on on-line watch to understand the propaganda, know the traits of loud mouth trolls who skip anything negative about their own country conveniently, or if they do, they make in subtle with easy adjectives. But for India they have special itch for making comments and sweeping generalizations all the way from central Asia :rolleyes:; on reports and criticism published by Indian media itself.

Indians have discussed this topic to best of their ability, many have played with straight bats and many have done what you wanted them to do.

Now this thread has reached its limit where people like me have to intervene and smack your face digitally.

The link I posted, the shit about Israel it is exposing, is showing you a mirror. You should take your crap back of typical coward troll, attacking the source. This site has drafted your sins in hundreds of lines and each need a response from high moral horse rider, before he or she stares at India.

Also I would like to answer your innocent queries regarding inaction of Indian police on this crime, but you have to develop enough intellect making me eat that bait. If you think I have ate the bait quoting you then you be mistaken. I am creating a deterrence, for the next time you feel invited to preach what India should do. According to me we are doing pretty well being a nation of 1.2 billion people, with chaotic over populated accidental cities and rape crimes far more less than United states of America. We are doing pretty well; the same day this thread came out, Indians on-line were showing middle finger to technology denying regime after ISRO injected heavy payload in space with the help of indigenous cryogenic rocket. That didn't made the news here.

bolo121
10 Jan 14,, 03:53
I know what is your interest is in spewing venom against India; it is habit encouraged by Indians themselves. Have you seen any Indian posting negative news about USA or Israel when there is plenty material available? Heck we even did not post threads about China when one member was on spree of flame bait.

I have spent enough time on on-line watch to understand the propaganda, know the traits of loud mouth trolls who skip anything negative about their own country conveniently, or if they do, they make in subtle with easy adjectives. But for India they have special itch for making comments and sweeping generalizations all the way from central Asia about India, on reports and criticism published by Indian media itself.

Indians have discussed this topic to best of their ability, many have played with straight bats and many have done what you wanted them to do.

Now this thread has reached its limit where people like me have to intervene and smack your face digitally.

The link I posted, the shit about Israel it is exposing, is showing you a mirror. You should take your crap back of typical coward troll, attacking the source. This site has drafted your sins in hundreds of lines and each need a response form high moral horse rider before he or she stares at India.

Also I would like to answer your innocent queries regarding inaction of Indian police on this crime, but you have to develop enough intellect making me eat that bait. If you think I have ate the bait quoting you then you be mistaken. I am creating a deterrence for the next time you feel invited to preach what India should do. According to me we are doing pretty well being a nation of 1.2 billion people with chaotic over populated accidental cities and rape crimes far more less than United states of America. We are doing pretty well; the same day this thread came out, Indians on-line were showing middle finger to technology denying regime after ISRO injecting heavy payload in space with the help of indigenous cryogenic rocket. That didn't made the news here.

For the love of god man do you even read what you wrote?
Doing pretty well?
A poor girl is raped and set on fire and all you are interested in is nationalistic chest beating and crying like mayawati about conspiracy 'I know what is your interest is in spewing venom against India'
Jesus Christ!
I hope next life you come back as poor Dalit Girl in UP.

troung
10 Jan 14,, 04:05
I know what is your interest is in spewing venom against India; it is habit encouraged by Indians themselves. Have you seen any Indian posting negative news about USA or Israel when there is plenty material available? Heck we even did not post threads about China when one member was on spree of flame bait.

A woman was raped twice, told to drop the charges and move by the police, threatened by her attackers, burned to death then the police tried to steal her body and cover up her murder - and YOU are the victim? YOU some jackass who lives overseas is the victim because this story deflates your ego? I'm sure would have been happy had the police buried this story.


I am creating a deterrence for the next time you feel invited to preach what India should do. According to me we are doing pretty well being a nation of 1.2 billion people with chaotic over populated accidental cities and rape crimes far more less than United states of America. We are doing pretty well; the same day this thread came out, Indians on-line were showing middle finger to technology denying regime after ISRO injecting heavy payload in space with the help of indigenous cryogenic rocket. That didn't made the news here.

Because this is a thread about a young woman who got gang raped twice, told to fuck off by the police and to drop the charges, murdered by her rapists, and then the police (state agents) tried to cover up the killing. All good...


The link I posted, the shit about Israel it is exposing, is showing you a mirror. You should take your crap back of typical coward troll, attacking the source. This site has drafted your sins in hundreds of lines and each need a response form high moral horse rider before he or she stares at India.

You posted shit from some wing bat anti-Semitic site and now just tried to defend it :rolleyes:

========
The worst thing about a piece of trash like you and BM is that you two live Western nations.

Bigfella
10 Jan 14,, 04:17
I know what is your interest is in spewing venom against India; it is habit encouraged by Indians themselves. Have you seen any Indian posting negative news about USA or Israel when there is plenty material available? Heck we even did not post threads about China when one member was on spree of flame bait.


Seen you trolling plenty about Australia. You weren't the only one. Lots of whining about how we didn't make it easier for you to avoid having to live in India. Guess our cousins have lower standards. Spare us the hypocrisy. You have no idea just how much you resemble the '50 cent army'.

You got here late & clearly have no interest in the topic. Just go away.

...cue implications of racism....never far away.

Tronic
10 Jan 14,, 04:18
I know what is your interest is in spewing venom against India; it is habit encouraged by Indians themselves. Have you seen any Indian posting negative news about USA or Israel when there is plenty material available? Heck we even did not post threads about China when one member was on spree of flame bait.

Speaking for myself.

I live in Canada, so I have strong opinions on things that happen in Canada. I have family in India, and genuinely want the country's social character to change for the better, thus naturally I have strong opinions on things in India. Exposing the dirt helps know the problem better (atleast, that's what was being discussed until someone's superficial pride got hurt :rolleyes:). Knowing the issue helps gradually mobilize a mindset towards change. Hell, the India against corruption movement wouldn't have taken place, had the resentment against corruption not exploded over the social media.

This superficial pride crap is utterly meaningless in instances where the problem is internal and the victims are Indians themselves. These are all real issues, and have nothing to do with pride or shame!

Infact, most Indian problems are not even pan-Indian, but are very regional. Each region in India has it's own character and it's own culture. It's just too bad that no problem can ever be discussed without senseless nationalism coming in the way.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jan 14,, 04:29
Before you continue down this road and start criticizing us, why don't you respond to this?

12 teenage boys arrested for alleged rape video | JPost | Israel News (http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Six-14-year-old-boys-arrested-for-alleged-gang-rape-of-girl-12-335778)I should have known better than to read this ... and I really don't like the fact that I want to use 13 and 14 year old boys as shark bait.

lemontree
10 Jan 14,, 04:42
I cannot believe that there are fathers in India who would not avenge their daughters, THE LAW BE DAMNED!!!

Sir, people go weak when the chips are down. There is rage - but a weak will, weak spirit and more of haplessness. Most of the victims fathers are oridinary people who may have never even been part of a school brawl.

lemontree
10 Jan 14,, 04:48
Why ? on this board were we discuss conflict that involves organised & systematic killing of people do you lose the plot when the subject of rape come up. You're not the only one. If there's one topic that gets the goat of people here its the subject of rape. Anything else is fine, but not rape.

How are we to have a rational and informed discussion on the subject then. It's the same story if i discuss with some women in my family. They become borderline hysterical.


My friend, I am sick of our cultural system that we so proudly protect, and which is responsible for such henious crimes. Rape and murder is the ultimate selfish crime that equates with genocide.

We want segregation in schools -girls separate and boys separate - and creat a sexually depraved society.

Our political culture has destroyed systems that protect the common citrizen - the system works for politicians and not the citizens.

bolo121
10 Jan 14,, 05:03
Sir, people go weak when the chips are down. There is rage - but a weak will, weak spirit and more of haplessness. Most of the victims fathers are oridinary people who may have never even been part of a school brawl.

Yes exactly, we are mostly ordinary Mango Men, no money power and no mob power.
All we can do is weep at the grave or funeral pyre afterwards.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 05:55
For the love of god man do you even read what you wrote?
Doing pretty well?
A poor girl is raped and set on fire and all you are interested in is nationalistic chest beating and crying like mayawati about conspiracy 'I know what is your interest is in spewing venom against India'
Jesus Christ!
I hope next life you come back as poor Dalit Girl in UP.

Listen to me tin pot, It is a crime and it needs to condemned, that's it. Indians are doing it, that is why it is in Indian media.

Ranting on WAB wouldn't make a difference to any soul in India. Now use your brain if you have any before sucking up to others who are here to dig nothing out of it especially when they have no bile to spit on their very own doing the same or worst crimes.

Before you drag me further into your baited political correctness I will request you to put on ignore. I would hate to make it blue light vs blue light or do collateral demage.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 05:59
A woman was raped twice, told to drop the charges and move by the police, threatened by her attackers, burned to death then the police tried to steal her body and cover up her murder - and YOU are the victim? YOU some jackass who lives overseas is the victim because this story deflates your ego? I'm sure would have been happy had the police buried this story.


Talk to my Hand,

I do not think you are any way capable to talk about Indian matters especially the kind of white superamist anti India bigot you are. You need to qualify before getting any serious response on this topic.

Now piss off.

Doktor
10 Jan 14,, 06:03
Before you continue down this road and start criticizing us, why don't you respond to this?

12 teenage boys arrested for alleged rape video | JPost | Israel News (http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Six-14-year-old-boys-arrested-for-alleged-gang-rape-of-girl-12-335778)

From what I can read, it is a different case. In Israel's case the police did the police work.


Tel Aviv police said Sunday the case is highly a sensitive and severe one, which they have placed at the top of their priorities. The story came to their attention just recently, when police received a video of the act.

They were not tipped off by a parent.

sated buddha
10 Jan 14,, 06:25
We want segregation in schools -girls separate and boys separate - and creat a sexually depraved society.

Both my girls (and my wife before them and her mother and my mother and my sister and most of my girl cousins) went to all-girl Convent schools with nuns and sisters.

Me and my brother and my dad and most of my guy cousins and uncles etc. went to all-boy catholic Jesuit schools with fathers and brothers.

None of us turned out to be either sexually depraved or a rapist. Yet. So I do not understand the point you made.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 06:39
I live in Canada, so I have strong opinions on things that happen in Canada.

When we had read strong opinion about Canada from you ?


I have family in India, and genuinely want the country's social character to change for the better, thus naturally I have strong opinions on things in India.

Yea, I know your strong opinion against GoI for putting a terrorist a murderer (of Punjab CM Beant Singh along with many innocent killed by a human bomb) on harms way; to be hanged till death.

People are out to deal with any menace, far more vocal and proactive than ever.


Exposing the dirt helps know the problem better (atleast, that's what was being discussed until someone's superficial pride got hurt :rolleyes:). Knowing the issue helps gradually mobilize a mindset towards change.

The change is already happening without the dictation from super powers and their minions.


Hell, the India against corruption movement wouldn't have taken place, had the resentment against corruption not exploded over the social media.

Anna Hazarey doesn't even know how to spell facebook. What he got at the end of the day? Zero. Don't tell me about AAP nonsense. There have been rise of many political parties in India before.

Societies react with whatever resources they have at their disposal. We have reacted against Emergency far more better and organized than that of today's social media phenomenon which has yield nothing, but has been more vulnerable to influenced opinions and has further polarized the society.


This superficial pride crap is utterly meaningless in instances where the problem is internal and the victims are Indians themselves. These are all real issues, and have nothing to do with pride or shame!

People are more switched on then what you think they aren't. Where I have taken pride of any thing which is not justified. Has I taken pride in this particular crime ?


Infact, most Indian problems are not even pan-Indian, but are very regional. Each region in India has it's own character and it's own culture. It's just too bad that no problem can ever be discussed without senseless nationalism coming in the way

Another generic assumption, typical regionalism by a Punjabi. I have seen twice forced abduction of girls from PAU campus in Ludhiana and police did nothing, god knows what happened to them. No media follow up. At least other people in other regions come out on street but in Punjab the scene of factitious pride is highest leading to cover ups.

It is neither a cultural nor region dependent problem. It is a problem with economy. Economy brings the reforms and reforms puts forces to train. We need police reforms that's it, full stop.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 06:43
From what I can read, it is a different case. In Israel's case the police did the police work.

Oh come on, the crime shouldn't have happened in the first place, because dad has got the loaded gun.

Doktor
10 Jan 14,, 06:47
Oh come on, the crime shouldn't have happened in the first place, because dad has got the loaded gun.

Maybe daddy was in Lebanon or elsewhere.

Crimes will happen, even most heinous ones. The thing is how the society/system reacts afterwards. Indian system failed and you are right, you need reforms. Hope they will turn out good.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 07:23
Maybe daddy was in Lebanon or elsewhere.

Crimes will happen, even most heinous ones. The thing is how the society/system reacts afterwards. Indian system failed and you are right, you need reforms. Hope they will turn out good.

India has 76 police officers per 100,000 people in 2007, Israel had 339 and USA 256.

Tronic
10 Jan 14,, 08:13
When we had read strong opinion about Canada from you ?

Can't compare Canadian system with Indian. They're miles apart.


Yea, I know your strong opinion against GoI for putting a terrorist a murderer (of Punjab CM Beant Singh along with many innocent killed by a human bomb) on harms way; to be hanged till death.

More like angst against GoI for carrying out pogroms and mass murder of it's own citizens.


The change is already happening without the dictation from super powers and their minions.

As if the "superpowers" give a shit how India's elected thieves run the country.


Anna Hazarey doesn't even know how to spell facebook. What he got at the end of the day? Zero. Don't tell me about AAP nonsense. There have been rise of many political parties in India before.

As if AAP's foot up Congress's ass didn't give you a shock.


Societies react with whatever resources they have at their disposal. We have reacted against Emergency far more better and organized than that of today's social media phenomenon which has yield nothing, but has been more vulnerable to influenced opinions and has further polarized the society.

Yeh, because staying ignorant is always so much better.


People are more switched on then what you think they aren't.

Gibberish.


Where I have taken pride of any thing which is not justified. Has I taken pride in this particular crime ?

Not going to waste my time spelling it out for you.


Another generic assumption, typical regionalism by a Punjabi. I have seen twice forced abduction of girls from PAU campus in Ludhiana and police did nothing, god knows what happened to them. No media follow up. At least other people in other regions come out on street but in Punjab the scene of factitious pride is highest leading to cover ups.

"Israel needs to be shown the mirror", "troung is a white supremacist" (nvm the fact he's not even white), and now "Punjabis have factitious pride". Anything but the topic on hand. So damn typical.

As for Punjab, I've already discussed many Punjabi shortcomings (gender bias, violence over land disputes, honour killings, etc) several times before on WAB.



It is neither a cultural nor region dependent problem. It is a problem with economy. Economy brings the reforms and reforms puts forces to train. We need police reforms that's it, full stop.

Police reforms are only the tip of an iceberg.

Doktor
10 Jan 14,, 08:44
India has 76 police officers per 100,000 people in 2007, Israel had 339 and USA 256.

We can go in length, this is separate subject altogether. The number of police officers can vary from what you count as police officers.

Added:

As I said, the sheer number of police officers wont prevent crimes from happening. Turkey has 484 officers per 100 000 inhabitants, however it didn't prevent this (http://muslimrapewave.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/turkey-13yo-girl-gang-raped-by-29-men/). Finland OTOH has 143 officers per 100 000 inhabitants.

Minskaya
10 Jan 14,, 09:39
You need to reread what Minksaya wrote and understand where I am coming from.
Minskaya musings on this board include the notorious Delhi rape and murder. The high incidence of rape and baby rape in South Africa. South Asian families selling their daughters into slavery. The Russian mafia sex trafficking girls from Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. Global sex/child trafficking stories. US Dept of State Tier rankings. Honor killings. A warning to foreigners on the sexual laws in Arab countries. An American judge who sentenced a teacher rapist to 30 days. The rape problem in the US military.

So don't sit there all offended and infer that I am picking on India. And if you believe I'm going to mum up on sexual crime anywhere you're badly mistaken. What happened in Kolkata is outrageous and I'm not going to pretend it didn't happen.

By the way, what in hell is this? - The Assam Rape Festival In India Begins This Week (http://nationalreport.net/assam-rape-festival-india-begins-week/)

And it is not just me. The entire world has taken notice. Due in large part to India's increasingly tarnished global image regarding sexual crime, your valuable tourism industry is beginning to tank...

Attacks on Women Rattle Travelers to India (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304244904579278050017041212)

Tronic
10 Jan 14,, 09:46
By the way, what in hell is this? - The Assam Rape Festival In India Begins This Week (http://nationalreport.net/assam-rape-festival-india-begins-week/)

A very distasteful satire.


And it is not just me. The entire world has taken notice. Due in large part to India's increasingly tarnished global image regarding sexual crime, your valuable tourism industry is beginning to tank...

Attacks on Women Rattle Travelers to India (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304244904579278050017041212)

Wouldn't exactly say the tourism industry has begun to tank.. It's still registering growth, just at a slower pace than before.

Regardless, India needs massive internal reforms in almost every sector.

Minskaya
10 Jan 14,, 09:53
A very distasteful satire.
After looking into it, you are correct. My apologies.

Bigfella
10 Jan 14,, 10:04
And it is not just me. The entire world has taken notice. Due in large part to India's increasingly tarnished global image regarding sexual crime, your valuable tourism industry is beginning to tank...

Attacks on Women Rattle Travelers to India (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304244904579278050017041212)

It isn't just rape stories that are a problem. Much like murder, people might see rape as a crime that is relatively rare & unlikely to impact them. What probably has as much impact is stories of casual sexual assault (groping in crowded areas, for instance) or even just behaviour that could be classified as harassment - aggressive ogling by crowds of men, for instance. I've heard numerous tales of such things from India, among other places (Egypt is notorious). This sort of stuff isn't just in news media, it spreads on tourism websites, by word of mouth etc. It won't discourage everyone, but it will have an impact. By comparison I was interested to note that the female travellers I met in Ethiopia were effusive about just how safe they felt - including sole travellers. Word spreads.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 10:36
Can't compare Canadian system with Indian. They're miles apart.

That was never the question. It was your claim that you have been hard on Canada at times, but I think you were lying to sound balanced.


More like angst against GoI for carrying out pogroms and mass murder of it's own citizens.

But you still support a could be human bomb who tossed a coin but one of his friend got unlucky ? Terrorist sympathiser should be seen with plenty of question marks even when he supports India.


As if the "superpowers" give a shit how India's elected thieves run the country.

Nor their citizens should, specially when they have their own skeletons in closets.



As if AAP's foot up Congress's ass didn't give you a shock.

Again generic reading of things. AAP is in power because Congress-I has given outside support to them. The same AAP chief was swearing on his teenage kids, 'will not to take their support to form the Government'. The whole world understood the scam, but not you.


Yeh, because staying ignorant is always so much better.

Show me when I took pride on crimes like rape. Please don't post for sake of posting, you are wasting my time.


"Israel needs to be shown the mirror", "troung is a white supremacist" (nvm the fact he's not even white), and now "Punjabis have factitious pride". Anything but the topic on hand. So damn typical.


I have posted the links, all Israel neighbours are against them or have been so far, since many decades, they are at war, the opposite side has their own point of views against them. Just because you wanted to suck up Israel it doesn't mean they are country of no sins or alleged sins.

Stop talking about others when they have bigger tongue than you. He may not be a white but the king's courtier is more loyal to the crown than King himself. For last couple of years he has been abusing Pakistanis with adjectives like shit hole etc., now his more frequent target is India.


As for Punjab, I've already discussed many Punjabi shortcomings (gender bias, violence over land disputes, honour killings, etc) several times before on WAB.

That wasn't my point, for a crime like rape you brought in regionalism. I merely pointed out your fallacy.


Police reforms are only the tip of an iceberg.

Let me make it simple, money fixes every thing. Hell it even addressed castism. Policing in Punjab improved many folds just when they were able to get hundreds of brand new bikes for patrolling.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jan 14,, 11:11
Nor their citizens should, specially when they have their own skeletons in closets.That is horse puckey. Just because I can't keep all my little girls safe does not mean that I don't want your little girls safe.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 11:29
We can go in length, this is separate subject altogether. The number of police officers can vary from what you count as police officers.

Added:

As I said, the sheer number of police officers wont prevent crimes from happening. Turkey has 484 officers per 100 000 inhabitants, however it didn't prevent this (http://muslimrapewave.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/turkey-13yo-girl-gang-raped-by-29-men/). Finland OTOH has 143 officers per 100 000 inhabitants.

The kind of picture of India because of rapes and other crimes is been portrayed even when the crime rates are comparatively less, it is for sure that we need more officers.

The point is police in India is poorly feed. They are more desperate for good shoes than good books on policing. The usual abuse hurled at us is our spending money on military and space program etc., but people miss it by miles that it is a catch 22 situation for us. We are like an octopus who is using all its tentacles to get a grip of as much as markers of prosperity it can.

The other reason mentioned frequently is poor distribution of wealth and corruption. My point is, it is a right diagnosis but with exaggerated complications told. No economy can be corruption free.

The other issue of less annoyance is, Policing is a state subject in India. There was an instance when PMO wasn't able to get one IPS officer out from Tamilnaidu because the CM told the PMO to take a hike. When Centre dictates the state it, is called as attack on federal spirit of India. The new reforms has to be penned down and police should be release from the clutches of states. If it doesn't happens then people have elect someone who brings about reforms in sates, at the same time generate more revenues. The recent rise of AAP in Delhi is an example of another wasted opportunity where an honest person who is determined about police reforms but is clueless about how to create wealth rather is socialist freak for whom capitalism is counter intuitive.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 11:50
That is horse puckey. Just because I can't keep all my little girls safe does not mean that I don't want your little girls safe.

Sir, you can not feel the heat of this exaggeration, which is been talked and debated on unusual scale, but I can, living overseas as an Indian. The mischief behind all this is more in proportion than genuine concern.

Indians are becoming untouchables these days. My dad made my life hell, asked me to come back or move to NZ, when I was practising in Australia, because of news of racial attacks on Indians he was watching. I uprooted myself and moved to New Zealand when the trend is opposite.

Recently an Indian trainee teacher was attacked and killed (I think) just because he appreciated a girl in a pub in New Zealand. My observation on that incident is (I may be completely wrong) that he fell victim of this unchecked wrong perception been made and assumed by people against Indians.

Someone has to keep it under control. A mirror needs to shown on regular bases whenever such crimes surface in other countries, which Indians are hardly doing because we know it will fire back at us. Same sense needs to put back.

A link posted above is self explanatory, why It has to be dealt with, given the kind of filth is been published by rag tag bloggers; mislead even moderator of this forum.

Bigfella
10 Jan 14,, 12:35
Sir, you can not feel the heat of this exaggeration, which is been talked and debated on unusual scale, but I can, living overseas as an Indian. The mischief behind all this is more in proportion than genuine concern.


Gee, you must have just been furious when a feral Indian press went into a frenzy about Australia based on half truths & exaggerations.


Indians are becoming untouchables these days. My dad made my life hell, asked me to come back or move to NZ, when I was practising in Australia, because of news of racial attacks on Indians he was watching. I uprooted myself and moved to New Zealand when the trend is opposite.


Funny, I don't recall that being mentioned when you were whining about Australia not making it easier for you to stay here. So you complain about coverage of India overseas yet have nothing to say about Indian coverage of Australia so overblown that your family pressured you to leave. Raise the double standard high!

(guess its lucky the Indian media was so focussed on 'racist Australians' it forgot to mention that some of the attackers in Australia were actually Maori. You might actually have to live in India instead :eek:....yeah, I know, never gonna happen)


Recently an Indian trainee teacher was attacked and killed (I think) just because he appreciated a girl in a pub in New Zealand. My observation on that incident is (I may be completely wrong) that he fell victim of this unchecked wrong perception been made and assumed by people against Indians.


Any proof there skippy, or are you just indulging the victim mentality again? it is tragic that a young man was killed for nothing. It would be even more tragic for somebody to misrepresent his death in order to push their own agenda - as happened with the murder of Nitin Garg in Australia.


Someone has to keep it under control. A mirror needs to shown on regular bases whenever such crimes surface in other countries, which Indians are hardly doing because we know it will fire back at us. Same sense needs to put back.


trans: 'quick, find a distraction'

Doktor
10 Jan 14,, 13:28
Guys, can you chill?

We all get buthurt when others exaggerate for our countries.

You don't want Yello to post Why Can't We Be Friends, right?

TopHatter
10 Jan 14,, 13:42
Guys, can you chill?

That's very good advice. There have been a lot of personal attacks in this thread and they need to stop.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jan 14,, 13:43
Sir, you can not feel the heat of this exaggeration, which is been talked and debated on unusual scale, but I can, living overseas as an Indian. The mischief behind all this is more in proportion than genuine concern.I'm sorry that life is hard for you but what has that got to do with a dead little girl? You're a grown man. You can take care of yourself.

That father in India just lost his world, his future. You have not.

ambidex
10 Jan 14,, 13:52
Gee, you must have just been furious when a feral Indian press went into a frenzy about Australia based on half truths & exaggerations.

You have all the right to defend Australia and make racial attacks on Indians look as an exaggeration. The fact is, Indians were attacked and hundreds of students protested against those attacks. The perception was against Australia back home and many like me paid the price.


Funny, I don't recall that being mentioned when you were whining about Australia not making it easier for you to stay here. So you complain about coverage of India overseas yet have nothing to say about Indian coverage of Australia so overblown that your family pressured you to leave. Raise the double standard high!

I am fully aware that I mentioned concerns of my parents and them asking me to come back. There might not been a context for me to explain more about my personal circumstances because I was more on pulling down posters making those attacks not racially motivated. If I remember It was you who asked to give my details because you thought I might have been booted out of Australia. I was quite forthcoming about my personal circumstances. Even having a long stay sponsored visa in Australia (Go back and check what I posted) I moved to NZ speaks volume about pressures under which I moved to NZ. As far as whining is concern then your police conducted an inquiry and Issue was raised on diplomatic level, what was that all about ? You do not want to recognise the problem and the whole episode which happened as it, then I can not help.


Guess its lucky the Indian media was so focussed on 'racist Australians' it forgot to mention that some of the attackers in Australia were actually Maori. You might actually have to live in India instead :eek:....yeah, I know, never gonna happen

Of course Indian media or even Indians staying in Australia would care less about the ethnicity of attackers. All it mattered was, attacks were happening in Australia, no such attacks were happening in New Zealand. BTW how can you in a same post say attacks were exaggerated and then blaming Maori for attacking Indians.


Any proof there skippy, or are you just indulging the victim mentality again? it is tragic that a young man was killed for nothing. It would be even more tragic for somebody to misrepresent his death in order to push their own agenda - as happened with the murder of Nitin Garg in Australia.


An Indian died because he was attacked for no good reason and the maggot who attacked him was a trained sailor. I bet if that guy would have other than an Indian he would have been safe and sound. On your emotional preaching why I shouldn't give reference of any tragedy to make my point then 1. I see it as a good argument because It has made you twist it differently with an intellectually constipated POV offering no academic discourse further or allowing people to think freely; one expect from poster here at WAB. 2. I have answered OOE within minutes, which means my observation was not invented on the hoof but a well thought of concern I developed when the attack on that trainee teacher happened. I remember discussing it with my wife at that time as well. 3. I was humble enough to admit in brackets that I may be completely wrong. 4. He was an Indian and ethereally I owe his tragedy and can recite it to alarm and alert everyone with such a possibility; which at the end can save lives than not reciting it because it will hurt some Australian who has no better argument to counter it.

Double Edge
10 Jan 14,, 13:57
Double Edge,



While it is true that the cops in many cases are hamstrung by their political bosses when the perps have friends in high places, that is not the biggest problem in India by far. There is something seriously wrong in the way many Police officers in India (especially in the North) react to rape allegations. Their reaction many a times involves some variation of blame the victim.

A couple of Tehelka journalists had done a sting operation a couple of years ago on several cops in the National Capital Region to find out what they really feel about rape. (The irony here of course is now the head honcho of Tehelka himself is in custody for sexually assaulting his employee. ) Anyway, look at the results and weep. I did.

The rapes will go on (http://www.tehelka.com/the-rapes-will-go-on/)

This pretty much sums up the messed up brains of these cops (though there were some exceptions of course).



Now, as I said in one of my previous posts, the cops are recruited from the general public. So I can only conclude, that we as a society have failed miserably to change our attitude to this heinous crime and our attitudes towards women in general. Blaming the politicians won't cut it.
This is an article that reflects the general consensus. It goes in to many areas. The usual story is blame the cops. Well, why aren't they doing their job ? i don't see that being answered in this article or any number of others in the same vein. And i don't feel too confident about this being just in the north, i would not be surprised if something like this happened in the south. There is no guarantee this could never happen in the south. In some ways that this would happen in Bengal isn't too much of a surprise. That state is $30 billion in the hole and Mamata isn't going to be able to change it overnight. She's angling for a bailout from the centre and will hold the country hostage until she gets it.

Resources. To be a cop in India has got to be the worst job to have. You are undermanned, over burdened, poorly paid and get abused the most. This comes across in the article, where between the lines they're telling the journalists to piss off.

The ratio of cops to 100k population is a great deal higher in the west than it is in India. How bad it is depends on the AO. Central business districts with high property tax tend to have better response than residential areas where the budget is nowhere close. My city shuts down at 11 pm and lost its night life because there were not enough cops to respond as the city grew over the last decade. The cheapest solution was to force establishments to close earlier, a few can stay open later but its a far cry from the 90s when you could stay out all night if you wanted. My city had the best night life in the country, today its Delhi.

Are you going to agree to up your property taxes so that cops in your area can be more responsive. Where is the funding to come from. See, this is something most people do not get. Security, democracy, justice do not come for free. You want to have all of these then better be ready to pay more taxes. Ensure those three wings are adequately funded and you will have the quality of life most want but cannot afford.

As far as the topic is concerned there is only one question i want to find an answer. Protective custody. If the girl was taken in she would be alive today.

So my question is do we have the resources to provide protective custody to a victim. Does such even exist.

Because if it doesn't exist, and the victim cannot protect herself then the best course of action is not to register the complaint. Yeah you can always get the perps on a murder rap after but its better to save the victim. Blaming the cops is useless, and forcing them to register a case just because the media demands it is asking for more rape victims to be killed.

Double Edge
10 Jan 14,, 14:27
My friend, I am sick of our cultural system that we so proudly protect, and which is responsible for such henious crimes. Rape and murder is the ultimate selfish crime that equates with genocide.

We want segregation in schools -girls separate and boys separate - and creat a sexually depraved society.

Our political culture has destroyed systems that protect the common citrizen - the system works for politicians and not the citizens.
If we don't protect the leaders then they will take no steps that endanger their lives. They will be ineffective.

The mood in the country is blame the system. Less effort is spent on understanding why the system does not perform to expectations. Why ? because nobody wants to hear the answer.

Blademaster
10 Jan 14,, 14:52
For the love of god man do you even read what you wrote?
Doing pretty well?
A poor girl is raped and set on fire and all you are interested in is nationalistic chest beating and crying like mayawati about conspiracy 'I know what is your interest is in spewing venom against India'
Jesus Christ!
I hope next life you come back as poor Dalit Girl in UP.

And you completely miss the point. We all Indians and of Indian descent condemn this episode entirely but that does not mean that India is one fucked up society as Minksaya and others make it out to be. Otherwise I am going to start calling USA, Australia, Israel, and every other western nation fucked up backward societies everytime a rape happens.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jan 14,, 15:23
And everytime rape happens, it boils my blood. Someone's little girl is being hurt. And yes, we're a fucked up society to be not able to prevent it.

Ottawa Police announced yesterday that we have a serial rapist. At least 3 cases were tied together with seven more being looked at. First thought came to mind, it took you bastards 18 months to discover this?

So, I'm sorry that your pride about India is hurt. Whoppeedoo. On this post, the police across the world has reported 12 fathers with hurt little girls. If your indignation about India's place in the world overshadows this, then your priorities are misplaced.

troung
10 Jan 14,, 16:17
Resources. To be a cop in India has got to be the worst job to have. You are undermanned, over burdened, poorly paid and get abused the most. This comes across in the article, where between the lines they're telling the journalists to piss off.

Then don't take the job.


Talk to my Hand,

You have no argument so you play the race card. Like I said I'm sure you wished the police had done a better job covering this up.


Stop talking about others when they have bigger tongue than you. He may not be a white but the king's courtier is more loyal to the crown than King himself. For last couple of years he has been abusing Pakistanis with adjectives like shit hole etc., now his more frequent target is India.

Yawn. Had this story been about Pakistan the tone of some members would be a lot different.


I do not think you are any way capable to talk about Indian matters especially the kind of white superamist anti India bigot you are. You need to qualify before getting any serious response on this topic.

Post anti Semitic propaganda - play the race card when called out on it.


Otherwise I am going to start calling USA, Australia, Israel, and every other western nation fucked up backward societies everytime a rape happens.

If the police - told the victim to fuck off, told her to move, allowed the rapists to threaten her, tried to rule her murder a suicide and steal her fucking body you might be onto something. Find those stories and the reaction of most members would be to string the police up with the attackers not to sweep it under the rug because it offends people's delicate sense of hyper nationalism.

==================
Discussions about racism in Australia, white racism, Jewish racism against Arabs are attempts by people to cover up the fact that Indian police officers refused to do their job then tried to cover up a murder. It's amazing a young lady is terrorized then brutally murdered but two of our more useless members think they are the real victims in the story. Literally the topic has changed to some goof who has done everything in his power to leave India behind whining about how hard a time he had getting the hell out of India and complaining that this story is being discussed in the first place.

A girl was raped twice, refused help by the police, terrorized by her attackers, then murdered and the police tried to cover it up. That's the story - not two losers who left India and are mad that people around the world found out about this event.

From a few pages ago - http://www.tehelka.com/the-rapes-will-go-on/
Something seems rotten with some of the agents tasked with enforcing the law.

Often been called the rape capital of India, the Delhi-NCR region has thrown up numerous such instances of police apathy in rape cases. When asked to explain the rising instances of rape, the cops have invariably blamed the women, an array of extraneous factors or resorted to specious arguments instead of looking inwards and focussing on police reforms. The most disturbing aspect of this is the rank misogyny that underlies it.A few weeks later, the Gurgaon Police outraged civil society by proposing a blanket curfew on working women in the city after 8 pm without prior permission from the Labour Department. This was the first reaction by the police after the report of a brutal gang-rape of a pub employee by six men. The police made no statement about the rapists. Later, however, the police put out a statement asserting they had been misquoted by the media.

Seventeen senior cops of over a dozen police stations across Gurgaon, Noida, Ghaziabad and Faridabad were caught on spy camera blaming everything from fashionable or revealing clothes to having boyfriends to visiting pubs to consuming alcohol to working alongside men as the main reasons for instances of rape. ‘It’s always the woman who is at fault’ was in essence the argument offered by a majority of the cops. Many of them believe that genuine rape victims never approach the police and those who do are basically extortionists or have loose moral values. Others believe that the women from Northeast could never be victims of forced sex as they are invariably involved in the flesh trade. Even more shockingly, some of them are of the view that if a woman has consensual sex with one man, then she shouldn’t complain if his friends also join in. If a woman is doing late hours at the office then she had it coming… and the arguments keep coming.


When asked about sensitisation in the police, Inspector Sunil Kumar of Delhi Police shrugged away the query, saying rape is anyway the girl’s fault, particularly if she is a ‘Delhi girl’: “If a girl living in Delhi doesn’t want this trauma she will not encourage it. Suppose you are two people and I am a girl dating you both. I am flirting with one person and ignoring you, then after I see you jealous, I come to you. Then one day when he (the other person) is drunk, he might come with two-three friends and ask me to join him. I will then go with him with my wish. In a fit of vindictiveness, he will try to have sex with me, with or without my wish. But first, it is my fault because I courted disaster. No rape can happen in Delhi without the girl’s provocation.”

GIVEN THAT these extremely disturbing attitudes exist in agencies that are meant for the protection of harassed women, it comes as little surprise that rapes continue unabated. Six rape cases were reported from different parts of the NCR during the two weeks TEHELKA reporters were out in the field meeting policemen. While the men in uniform have a spectrum of reasons to rationalise rise in rape occurrence, there is little acknowledgment of the fact that perhaps better policing and instilling a fear of the law among the perpetrators could make women feel that much safer.
I guess it's easier to call Americans and Australians racist.

Blademaster
10 Jan 14,, 16:24
And everytime rape happens, it boils my blood. Someone's little girl is being hurt. And yes, we're a fucked up society to be not able to prevent it.

Ottawa Police announced yesterday that we have a serial rapist. At least 3 cases were tied together with seven more being looked at. First thought came to mind, it took you bastards 18 months to discover this?

So, I'm sorry that your pride about India is hurt. Whoppeedoo. On this post, the police across the world has reported 12 fathers with hurt little girls. If your indignation about India's place in the world overshadows this, then your priorities are misplaced.

My pride is not hurt. It was never hurt. But it doesn't mean that I am going to roll over and let certain things pass that have no basis in truth.

I am very ashamed that this rape happened but it doesn't mean that India is a fucked up society or that I have lost my faith in Indian society.
Yes there should be outrage at this kind of crime but it doesn't mean bashing a country as a whole or making sweeping generalizations like Minksaya and others did. IIRC, you also protested against this kind of sweeping generalizations for other kind of atrocities against USA or other countries.

What I take from this episode is that people are outrage by it and doing something about it instead of doing nothing and moving on. The Indian media and the people that hear about it are doing something. Same way that your country's media and police are doing something about the serial rapes. But no one is calling your country a one fucked up country or dysfunctional country or the rape capital of the world as Minksaya is categorizing India to be. She is being unfairly biased and I am calling her up on it.

cdude
10 Jan 14,, 16:56
This is the kind of thread that you get your popcorn ready and watch the firework.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eO8o9_rI154/Tw4x1NQg0EI/AAAAAAAAAnk/QeUJsEsqgMg/s1600/gus-psyche-popcorn.gif

antimony
10 Jan 14,, 17:34
Listen to me tin pot, It is a crime and it needs to condemned, that's it.

No its not "thats is" It is not just a crime. It is a direct result of the way a section of the Indian society thinks about women. I am glad to say its changing, but there is still a lot of darkness where light needs to be present.

I really don't care who's ego gets butthurt, and which popcorn eating trolls on this board come to gloat over these pieces of sordid news, it is a problem and those among us who care will continue to care and protest and highlight. By the way, I also don't get this gloating over rape in other countries - why does it matter what is happening in Israel or some other place if our own womenfolk are not safe?

Tronic
10 Jan 14,, 20:26
That was never the question. It was your claim that you have been hard on Canada at times, but I think you were lying to sound balanced.

Give me something to be hard on Canada about. In Canada, we don't have to put up with the shit which drives us out of the country like in India. Life is good in Canada.



But you still support a could be human bomb who tossed a coin but one of his friend got unlucky ? Terrorist sympathiser should be seen with plenty of question marks even when he supports India.

I've never supported Rajoana, but regardless, I couldn't give a flying fcuk about getting a stamp of approval from a pseudo-nationalist fanboy like you. You're desperately trying to find a distraction.



Again generic reading of things. AAP is in power because Congress-I has given outside support to them. The same AAP chief was swearing on his teenage kids, 'will not to take their support to form the Government'. The whole world understood the scam, but not you.

When they refused to form a government, you had folks like you screaming that they are only shying away from responsibility and scared to fulfill their electoral promises. Now they have formed a government, and you bring that crap out. Give it a rest.



Show me when I took pride on crimes like rape. Please don't post for sake of posting, you are wasting my time.

I'm confused whether this is a weaseling tactic, or you truly cannot grasp what is being implied.

You being so defensive towards the news of this heinous crime and attacking anyone who presents it reeks of some twisted sense of nationalist pride.



I have posted the links, all Israel neighbours are against them or have been so far, since many decades, they are at war, the opposite side has their own point of views against them.

That has shit all to do with rapes in India.


Just because you wanted to suck up Israel it doesn't mean they are country of no sins or alleged sins.

The hell are you talking about? Israel has nothing to do with this thread or topic...



That wasn't my point, for a crime like rape you brought in regionalism. I merely pointed out your fallacy.

I said that the issues differ in every region. Violence in Punjab or Haryana is nothing like violence in the South or the East of the country. The Police in Punjab are by no means undermanned or underarmed. And the populace in Punjab and Haryana (and even UP) is much more heavily armed than the states in the South or East of the country. When rape (or even eave teasing) happens in Punjab, it almost always results in armed violence. The Dalits of Punjab are not as poor or helpless as the Dalits of UP or Bihar. Infact, Punjab probably has a bigger problem of young boys and girls being murdered by their own parents for eloping rather than rape and kidnapping. That doesn't mean rape doesn't happen in Punjab, but the roots of the problem are very different. The social character of each region is different. The solutions for each state are different. UP/Bihar needs better police training and more cops. That is not the solution for the current problems in Punjab or Haryana. The details and solutions never get to the point of being discussed because someone or the other throws a fit about "India being insulted" by someone posting such news.



Let me make it simple, money fixes every thing. Hell it even addressed castism.

Reservations address casteism? You're doing one hell of a job bringing in everything into this discussion to shy away from the original topic itself.

antimony
10 Jan 14,, 21:11
Give me something to be hard on Canada about. In Canada, we don't have to put up with the shit which drives us out of the country like in India. Life is good in Canada.


The food sucks (compared to India) and there is no family. :frown:
There you go.


Reservations address casteism? You're doing one hell of a job bringing in everything into this discussion to shy away from the original topic itself.

Yeah, that one's a keeper. Casteism is now yytuly dead, for all the money we have thrown at it. Right.

Minskaya
10 Jan 14,, 21:23
No its not "thats is" It is not just a crime. It is a direct result of the way a section of the Indian society thinks about women. I am glad to say its changing, but there is still a lot of darkness where light needs to be present.
And that is what this thread is all about. Shining a light on the heart of darkness. Rape is a crime that happens everywhere and in all societies. The sad truth is that deterring a determined rapist is difficult at best and in many cases virtually impossible. At the very least then, most societies demand that rapists be quickly apprehended and justice served. What struck me about this incident was not the crime itself (horrific as it was), but the 'response' of law enforcement. Rather than protecting this young victim from further harm, they lifted not a finger in her desperate hour of need. Not only were they ambivalent about her rape, but they colluded to threaten her family and cover up her murder. This attitude and behavior is disgusting and inexcusable. From the very words of Indians participating in this thread, this police 'response' is neither atypical nor an aberration. Apparently however, it is a child with many fathers.

I've ruffled some feathers here. Good. I consider that a plus. The sordid incident is being actively discussed and - post upon post, word upon word - light is being shed on the realm of darkness alluded to above.

sated buddha
10 Jan 14,, 22:33
35099

35100

Nirbheek, India's first gun for women

Pervez Iqbal Siddiqui,TNN | Jan 10, 2014, 02.21 AM IST

LUCKNOW: Giving more power to women to defend themselves and as a tribute to December 2012 ganrape victim Nirbhaya, the Indian Ordnance Factory, Kanpur, has manufactured Nirbheek, a .32 bore light weight revolver, India's first firearm designed for women. At 500 grams, it is also the first IOF handgun made of titanium alloy.

Priced at Rs 1,22,360, Nirbheek was launched on January 6 and has already received around 80 formal enquiries and over 20 bookings. "At least 80% bookings are from women licensees," says Abdul Hameed, general manager of IOF. Described by arms experts as an Indian hybrid of a Webley & Scott and Smith & Wesson, for its simple mechanism and light frame, it is the smallest revolver made in India — an ideal to fit a purse or a small hand bag.

In a state where government offers arms licences as incentive to achieve wheat procurement and immunization targets, it is not surprising that a total of 11,22,814 persons have licensed arms as per the state home department records. This is over four times the count of firearms available with the Uttar Pradesh Police (2.5 lakh). Hence a ready market already seems in place for Nirbheek.

But not all women believe carrying a handgun would help combat harassment on public transport daily. "There is nothing they can do to a woman with a gun that they cannot to one without," says Shalini Seth, a medical executive touring on most of the week days. "In rape, the threat is not so much to life and a weapon may not be helpful once a tormentor has prevailed on his prey," she says.

Senior IPS officer Arun Kumar, on the other hand, has a different point of view. "Once a target of rape whips out a handgun, the element of surprise is sure to scare the life out of most of the persons who attempt rape," he said. "In most of criminal cases in India, the perpetrator, irrespective of whether armed or not, neither expects nor faces any stiff resistance from the target. Women carrying small handguns will surely make a difference to the tendency," said Kumar, additional director general of police (ADG) heading Rules and Manuals wing of the UP Police.

The IOF Kanpur is confident the revolver will be the ideal weapon for women in India. "Expectedly, the weapon has received a very good response. More bookings are sure to follow once the Allahabad High Court lifts the ban on new licences," said Hameed. The court had put a ban on issuing new licences in October 2013 while hearing a petition on anomalies in the process through which arms licences are issued.

"The revolver is capable of firing six rounds loaded in a revolving chamber, hence any misfire of a round does not affect next shot, unlike in a pistol. Positive location of main spring eliminates malfunctioning as well," he said. Keeping in mind the target clientele, the IOF Kanpur has also ordered specially designed boxes lined with velvet to make it more attractive.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Nirbheek-Indias-first-gun-for-women/articleshow/28607959.cms

sated buddha
10 Jan 14,, 22:37
Question for the experts: Why are guns so expensive? This gun costs 1.2 lacs. In that much I can buy a sports bike. Or put in 90K more and buy a proper car (Nano). What is it about the gun that makes it so expensive? Even some good functional pens and watches are cheaper.

DarthSiddius
10 Jan 14,, 22:52
What struck me about this incident was not the crime itself (horrific as it was), but the 'response' of law enforcement. Rather than protecting this young victim from further harm, they lifted not a finger in her desperate hour of need. Not only were they ambivalent about her rape, but they colluded to threaten her family and cover up her murder.

Tried to stay away form this thread but I did find the above statement very curious, why didn't the police act? Did the rapists have political connections or was the police bribed? I can understand them not doing their job properly, given the quality of some of the police personnel but actively trying to cover up this rape/murder points towards someone else pulling the strings.

BTW the Calcutta high court has asked the state government whether it is up for a CBI investigation into this case.

Kolkata gang-rape case: Calcutta High Court asks West Bengal government about its position on CBI probe (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-kolkata-gang-rape-case-calcutta-high-court-asks-west-bengal-government-about-its-position-on-cbi-probe-1944064)

antimony
10 Jan 14,, 23:39
And that is what this thread is all about. Shining a light on the heart of darkness. Rape is a crime that happens everywhere and in all societies. The sad truth is that deterring a determined rapist is difficult at best and in many cases virtually impossible. At the very least then, most societies demand that rapists be quickly apprehended and justice served. What struck me about this incident was not the crime itself (horrific as it was), but the 'response' of law enforcement. Rather than protecting this young victim from further harm, they lifted not a finger in her desperate hour of need. Not only were they ambivalent about her rape, but they colluded to threaten her family and cover up her murder. This attitude and behavior is disgusting and inexcusable. From the very words of Indians participating in this thread, this police 'response' is neither atypical nor an aberration. Apparently however, it is a child with many fathers.

I've ruffled some feathers here. Good. I consider that a plus. The sordid incident is being actively discussed and - post upon post, word upon word - light is being shed on the realm of darkness alluded to above.

Mins,

I don't know if you notice this, but there usually is an outpouring of discontent from Indian civil society nowadays. It happened in the Delhi case and I am sure in happening once these cases are cropping. that is good, as civil society is the true mirror of the country, not the administration, officials of politicians, whom we India consider apathetic and useless at best and downright harmful at worst. In conclusion, the cops doing a coverup, while alien to some, is not shocking to me, wihich is all kinds of sad.

antimony
10 Jan 14,, 23:46
Question for the experts: Why are guns so expensive? This gun costs 1.2 lacs. In that much I can buy a sports bike. Or put in 90K more and buy a proper car (Nano). What is it about the gun that makes it so expensive? Even some good functional pens and watches are cheaper.

Because of moronic regulations and pricing policies and misguided notions that guns are bad. Seriously, 1.2 lacs for this piece of crap (an old Webley Scott rehash) that would have been considered outdated even 70 years ago? Here in the US modern defensive pistols (the good brands) can be had around 500/ 600 USD, and they are leagues ahead of this.

Having said that, I hope the ladies start packing either with this (or hopefully something btter) but they really need adequate training before they hit the street. I wishsome agency will arrange that. Hey, there's a business idea

Bigfella
10 Jan 14,, 23:55
Tried to stay away form this thread but I did find the above statement very curious, why didn't the police act? Did the rapists have political connections or was the police bribed? I can understand them not doing their job properly, given the quality of some of the police personnel but actively trying to cover up this rape/murder points towards someone else pulling the strings.

BTW the Calcutta high court has asked the state government whether it is up for a CBI investigation into this case.

Kolkata gang-rape case: Calcutta High Court asks West Bengal government about its position on CBI probe (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-kolkata-gang-rape-case-calcutta-high-court-asks-west-bengal-government-about-its-position-on-cbi-probe-1944064)

Darth,

You have hit on something that might help to explain the reaction of some of us to this.

There are a couple of things about this that are particularly jarring from the POV of western posters. The first is that having reported a terrible rape to the police, the girl was basically ignored by the police and left to the mercies of the rapists, who raped her again and then burned her to death. The gruesome nature of the death alone is shocking, as is the apparent police indifference. This isn't something we are used to seeing. I can't think of a comparable case in Australia. The subsequent attempts of the police to cover up the crime are almost as bad. I'll be interested to see what emerges from any investigation.

We are all aware of stories of police failure and corruption in our respective societies, just as we are aware that terrible crime happen. This example is extreme in every respect. If it happened in one of our nations we would be screaming about it.

sated buddha
10 Jan 14,, 23:57
Because of moronic regulations and pricing policies and misguided notions that guns are bad. Seriously, 1.2 lacs for this piece of crap (an old Webley Scott rehash) that would have been considered outdated even 70 years ago? Here in the US modern defensive pistols (the good brands) can be had around 500/ 600 USD, and they are leagues ahead of this.

It does look a little antique. But the imports from what I know are in the 3.5-5 lac range, so this is comparatively cheaper. The velvet lined case is a nice feminine touch though.

DarthSiddius
11 Jan 14,, 00:43
Darth,

You have hit on something that might help to explain the reaction of some of us to this.

There are a couple of things about this that are particularly jarring from the POV of western posters. The first is that having reported a terrible rape to the police, the girl was basically ignored by the police and left to the mercies of the rapists, who raped her again and then burned her to death. The gruesome nature of the death alone is shocking, as is the apparent police indifference. This isn't something we are used to seeing. I can't think of a comparable case in Australia. The subsequent attempts of the police to cover up the crime are almost as bad. I'll be interested to see what emerges from any investigation.

We are all aware of stories of police failure and corruption in our respective societies, just as we are aware that terrible crime happen. This example is extreme in every respect. If it happened in one of our nations we would be screaming about it.

BF,

Regarding the nature of this crime, all I would like to say is that humanity as a collective has great potential, and is capable of doing both good and bad - to their very extremes. What these turds did to that girl is beyond redemption, and is nauseating not just to you and me but every human being that has an active conscience - this includes Indians and westerners alike (including the posters here - some of them might not articulate this thought correctly but I would be mightily surprised if they feel any different).

The police did not do their job. Now why they didn't is something that the relevant authorities need to figure out, and I'm sure if they look enough the reasons will stand out.

Kolkata gang-rape: family of teen raped twice and set on fire to meet President today (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/kolkata-gang-rape-family-of-teen-raped-twice-and-set-on-fire-to-meet-president-today-467807)


The admission by the police placed Mamata Banerjee's government in a new controversy, not only because of the teen's horrific ordeal, but because of an ugly attempt by the police to force a cremation for her sooner than her family wanted - an attempt, the opposition Left says, to bury the truth that the girl, twice sexually assaulted, was given no security, which led to her murder.

The girl's father, a taxi driver originally from Bihar, is a loyalist of the Left's trade union, CITU, which wanted to organise a public funeral procession.

In a grotesque attempt to stymie that, police tried to hijack the body and organize a hasty cremation. The girl's father however avoided that by refusing to hand over her death certificate.

The only reason I can think of that even begins to explain the police behaviour is that the father of the Victim might have political connections along with the men who raped her. And the police were told to strong-arm the family into cremating the girl before this scheduled public rally - which would likely have been against the state government of West Bengal as it was planned to be carried out by a group related to CPI (Marxist), which is leading the current state legislature's opposition.

Officer of Engineers
11 Jan 14,, 00:52
It does look a little antique. But the imports from what I know are in the 3.5-5 lac range, so this is comparatively cheaper. The velvet lined case is a nice feminine touch though.You'd be much better off training your daughter in long distance sprinting. That is a bellygun, ie stab the barrel into the belly and squeeze the trigger. Somewhat better than a knife but not much. In fact, a sharp knife will do more damage than this thing.

As said before, the best self defence course is situational awareness. But that is a life long trait.

Kung fu, pepper spray, and even tasers means nothing against a crazed doped up thug. Hell, there are stories that even 9mm PB rounds wouldn't stop them. Your best option is to know when to run and run fast.

Bigfella
11 Jan 14,, 00:55
BF,

Regarding the nature of this crime, all I would like to say is that humanity as a collective has great potential, and is capable of doing both good and bad - to their very extremes. What these turds did to that girl is beyond redemption, and is nauseating not just to you and me but every human being that has an active conscience - this includes Indians and westerners alike

Fair point Darth. it is a particularly horrific crime.


(including the posters here - some of them might not articulate this thought correctly but I would be mightily surprised if they feel any different).


Some of them managed to bury their feelings pretty deep beneath a layer of nationalist chest thumping, distraction & victimhood posturing.


The police did not do their job. Now why they didn't is something that the relevant authorities need to figure out, and I'm sure if they look enough the reasons will stand out.

Kolkata gang-rape: family of teen raped twice and set on fire to meet President today (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/kolkata-gang-rape-family-of-teen-raped-twice-and-set-on-fire-to-meet-president-today-467807)



The only reason I can think of that even begins to explain the police behaviour is that the father of the Victim might have political connections along with the men who raped her. And the police were told to strong-arm the family into cremating the girl before this scheduled public rally - which would likely have been against the state government of West Bengal as it was planned to be carried out by a group related to CPI (Marxist), which is leading the current state legislature's opposition.

I'll leave the political ins & outs to locals, but I will say that this sort of thing is outside my experience of law enforcement in Australia. If she turned up in a police station here arrest warrants would be issued very shortly thereafter. I suspect the same is true in the US & Europe. While this might shock all of us, I get the impression that Indian posters are not as surprised by it as others of us are.

DarthSiddius
11 Jan 14,, 01:17
I'll leave the political ins & outs to locals, but I will say that this sort of thing is outside my experience of law enforcement in Australia. If she turned up in a police station here arrest warrants would be issued very shortly thereafter. I suspect the same is true in the US & Europe. While this might shock all of us, I get the impression that Indian posters are not as surprised by it as others of us are.

Sadly in my country (if I'm allowed to say so, I have not lived there in half a decade), politics has always meddled with police affairs. The Indian state police services don't have the required amount of operational independence and are often subject to and required to know tow to political pressures and sensitivities. To compound this serious issue, there aren't nearly enough trained officers/constables and almost all of them aren't paid enough to be able to sustain a modern lifestyle.

Bigfella
11 Jan 14,, 01:25
Sadly in my country (if I'm allowed to say so, I have not lived there in half a decade), politics has always meddled with police affairs. The Indian state police services don't have the required amount of operational independence and are often subject to and required to know tow to political pressures and sensitivities. To compound this serious issue, there aren't nearly enough trained officers/constables and almost all of them aren't paid enough to be able to sustain a modern lifestyle.

Political interference here has dropped off dramatically in the past 30 years, but even at its worst it didn't reach down to operational level quite like this. An undermanned & poorly paid police force is a recipe for all sorts of bad things.

antimony
11 Jan 14,, 01:38
Darth,

You have hit on something that might help to explain the reaction of some of us to this.

There are a couple of things about this that are particularly jarring from the POV of western posters. The first is that having reported a terrible rape to the police, the girl was basically ignored by the police and left to the mercies of the rapists, who raped her again and then burned her to death. The gruesome nature of the death alone is shocking, as is the apparent police indifference. This isn't something we are used to seeing. I can't think of a comparable case in Australia. The subsequent attempts of the police to cover up the crime are almost as bad. I'll be interested to see what emerges from any investigation.

We are all aware of stories of police failure and corruption in our respective societies, just as we are aware that terrible crime happen. This example is extreme in every respect. If it happened in one of our nations we would be screaming about it.

You have (entirely reasonable) expectations that the official machinery will work. We have no such expectations. India progresses in spite of her government and government agencies, not because of them.

While things do happen on a wider scale (anti - terrorism, drugs etc.) for problems of the common man we expect absolutely no respite, and often have to rely on going to the courts ourselves, getting hold of some political party or go to the media.

If the girl had taken her story directly to the media then this may have been avoided.

What is really sad for me is this happened in my home town, where we supposedly want our women to be free, safe and independent.

bolo121
11 Jan 14,, 05:00
Listen to me tin pot, It is a crime and it needs to condemned, that's it. Indians are doing it, that is why it is in Indian media.

Ranting on WAB wouldn't make a difference to any soul in India. Now use your brain if you have any before sucking up to others who are here to dig nothing out of it especially when they have no bile to spit on their very own doing the same or worst crimes.

Before you drag me further into your baited political correctness I will request you to put on ignore. I would hate to make it blue light vs blue light or do collateral demage.

Hmmm lets see, weird personal insult, check.
Ranting on WAB, well thats exactly what you just did.
Accusing of political correctness and sycophancy just because i don't join in your silly opinion, gibberish.
Completely missed the point by a country mile, also check.

Edit: Looks like Antimony and Tronic expressed my points in much clearer fashion already

bolo121
11 Jan 14,, 05:07
And you completely miss the point. We all Indians and of Indian descent condemn this episode entirely but that does not mean that India is one fucked up society as Minksaya and others make it out to be. Otherwise I am going to start calling USA, Australia, Israel, and every other western nation fucked up backward societies everytime a rape happens.

You also miss the point.
The way I see its a convenient escape card we play to avoid looking at our deep social problems in the way we treat women.
We say so what, it happens in other countries too, shrug and move on.

Right from birth where they have to escape ultrasound abortion, to childhood where they struggle to get education and adulthood where they are treated like cash cows by inlaws.

Outside of us tiny educated middle class, womans lot is still very harsh and brutal.

ambidex
11 Jan 14,, 05:41
No its not "thats is" It is not just a crime. It is a direct result of the way a section of the Indian society thinks about women. I am glad to say its changing, but there is still a lot of darkness where light needs to be present.

I really don't care who's ego gets butthurt, and which popcorn eating trolls on this board come to gloat over these pieces of sordid news, it is a problem and those among us who care will continue to care and protest and highlight. By the way, I also don't get this gloating over rape in other countries - why does it matter what is happening in Israel or some other place if our own womenfolk are not safe?

I am sorry for being rude at you on the very first quoting you, it might have been previous posts of yours I read on other threads that added up. But now I am more confident that I wasn't wrong.

Why ?

1. You are barking at the wrong trees, because any Indian who would read this blog respects women, have families and have stable relationships with woman they are married to( I can bet on it blindly ). Those who disrespect women will keep disrespecting them because they will never get the chance to read you.

2. You are wrong on this account as well that you are glad that things are changing within society but I am fully aware that societies is't changing, it is the law and enforcement that keep societies in check. Such outrages are nothing new with Indian societies, it has been punishing men for being bad with women. Try stalk/eve tease a women in a market place and then pray your gods that the women doesn't shout at you. You will never know what will fell on you within seconds.

Once I read Osho Rajneesh that people who think they can change the societies by preaching are fools. BD posted a link about an Incident that happened in Israel which proved that best of civilized, heavily armed societies with 4-5 five times more police officers than India are struggling with crime against women.

3. Now on your diatribes about, pop corn, pride, butt hurt and gloating, ,,

a. Look who thanked the gibberish that you posted. They are the top guns of blogging world, they have all the invincible excuses and at times excellent remedies for problems their societies suffer. Not only that they, never post their own shit for open debates ( I asked Tronic when last time he was hard at Canada; on his very own claim), until unless they are not called out and how persistently they keep thread about your shit alive. Do you even understand what is happening here ? You are are being tooled by these top dogs who are not giving you remedy but emotional bickering to bog you down.

b. Since it was a personal attack on me I think it is fare on your part to do it, I will not make it blue light vs blue. Having said that I must tell you that I am suffering from post debate stress for last 24 hours being rude and confronting with people who I think are not that bad. I do not want to diagnose my own strategy but I can not help to bring them down for greater cause.

4. Greater Cause is what we can do being educated Indians ? The remedy.

The crime has already happened, it happened without warning or the warning wasn't addressed because of lack of resources (poor training). So what we can do now, pick up the gun and kill the criminals like you all were doing in first two or three threads ? No.

Call out sweeping generalizations, help restore faith of the society we live with that not every thing is wrong. Look at this particular crime. The criminals are behind bars, it means there was something still working and intact that lead to criminals being apprehended.

We can create a tempo for police reforms, an uneducated civilian living in remote backward regions will never have the comprehension to even think of it. It is our duty to think for him. We can tell people why it is important to pick up the phone/register the complaint, approach media and society. These all are the safety nets pretty much functional in India and this case is a good example of it.

Telling people again and again to respect women means that there is something wrong with educated Indian men, you are creating more problems for them than any help. On your part of highlighting the problem, then this particular news has been disseminated/plagiarized word by word by every single international Newspaper known. They have already out shined your highlights. What a waste it will be if you are going to repeat the same here as well.

Officer of Engineers
11 Jan 14,, 06:05
Oh for Pete sakes. No amount of police reform is going to prevent the first rape. The only person who can prevent the rape is the little girl herself ... as much to the teeth grinding of fathers. We can train her, teach her, prepare her the best we could but at the end of the day, she is the only one who can prevent the bastard from doing his crime.

What we're discussing was to give her the tools to do so. A firearm is a pretty damned good equalizer. She may or may not kill the perp. Hell, she may or may not even discharge the firearm. She may or even may not still be raped if the perp manages to overpower her somehow ... but it raises the game to those who are equally determined and skilled.

As for us not posting our personal shit. What the hell are you talking about? We have two friends from this board who died.

Bigfella
11 Jan 14,, 06:25
You have all the right to defend Australia and make racial attacks on Indians look as an exaggeration. The fact is, Indians were attacked and hundreds of students protested against those attacks. The perception was against Australia back home and many like me paid the price.



I am fully aware that I mentioned concerns of my parents and them asking me to come back. There might not been a context for me to explain more about my personal circumstances because I was more on pulling down posters making those attacks not racially motivated. If I remember It was you who asked to give my details because you thought I might have been booted out of Australia. I was quite forthcoming about my personal circumstances. Even having a long stay sponsored visa in Australia (Go back and check what I posted) I moved to NZ speaks volume about pressures under which I moved to NZ. As far as whining is concern then your police conducted an inquiry and Issue was raised on diplomatic level, what was that all about ? You do not want to recognise the problem and the whole episode which happened as it, then I can not help.



Of course Indian media or even Indians staying in Australia would care less about the ethnicity of attackers. All it mattered was, attacks were happening in Australia, no such attacks were happening in New Zealand. BTW how can you in a same post say attacks were exaggerated and then blaming Maori for attacking Indians.



An Indian died because he was attacked for no good reason and the maggot who attacked him was a trained sailor. I bet if that guy would have other than an Indian he would have been safe and sound. On your emotional preaching why I shouldn't give reference of any tragedy to make my point then 1. I see it as a good argument because It has made you twist it differently with an intellectually constipated POV offering no academic discourse further or allowing people to think freely; one expect from poster here at WAB. 2. I have answered OOE within minutes, which means my observation was not invented on the hoof but a well thought of concern I developed when the attack on that trainee teacher happened. I remember discussing it with my wife at that time as well. 3. I was humble enough to admit in brackets that I may be completely wrong. 4. He was an Indian and ethereally I owe his tragedy and can recite it to alarm and alert everyone with such a possibility; which at the end can save lives than not reciting it because it will hurt some Australian who has no better argument to counter it.

My apologies. Reading this (well, the coherent bits) and your most recent post I can see how badly I have misjudged this whole situation. Clearly the real victim here is you. I hope you can one day find it in your heart to forgive me.

lemontree
11 Jan 14,, 07:38
Both my girls (and my wife before them and her mother and my mother and my sister and most of my girl cousins) went to all-girl Convent schools with nuns and sisters.

Me and my brother and my dad and most of my guy cousins and uncles etc. went to all-boy catholic Jesuit schools with fathers and brothers.

None of us turned out to be either sexually depraved or a rapist. Yet. So I do not understand the point you made.
OK. I'll make it simple for you. Does eve teasing exist in the North Eastern states of India? The answer is NO.

Also please ask your daughters (if they are grown up) and wife, how many times have they sexually "harassed" in the streets. Ask your self, how sexually desperate you were during your teens.

lemontree
11 Jan 14,, 07:52
Give me something to be hard on Canada about. In Canada, we don't have to put up with the shit which drives us out of the country like in India. Life is good in Canada.
What shit has driven you out of India?

sated buddha
11 Jan 14,, 07:54
OK. I'll make it simple for you. Does eve teasing exist in the North Eastern states of India? The answer is NO.

I'll take your word for it, having never been more East than Darjeeling myself. What is that attributable to? Mixed schools? I think you and I both know that in our country the only one-gender schools are predominantly the missionary ones. i.e. the costly ones, the ones which the elite go to. Government and most aided schools are mixed gender. The ones 95% of our kids go to. Are you saying the sexual frustration and predatory crimes stem from this top 5% of our middle class population?

The only other single gender schools we commonly have here are the madrassas for boys and Muslim/Bohri schools run for girls. But its not the schools where the segragation stems from there.


Also please ask your daughters (if they are grown up) and wife, how many times have they sexually "harassed" in the streets.

This is because the turds did not go to school with girls?


Ask your self, how sexually desperate you were during your teens.

I was 14 when I first had sex. There's been a pretty steady stream since then. A lot of hormones does not have to equate to desperation. Not if you know how to get some.

So its a little clearer to me now, your line of reasoning. Are you advocating mixed gender schools so that our kids can have the access and opportunity to have sex so that they do not grow into sex starved desperate pressure cookers waiting to explode on our streets?

Personally, I'd prefer they wait. Double standards? Sure. I'm a father. My kids. My standards.

lemontree
11 Jan 14,, 07:57
If we don't protect the leaders then they will take no steps that endanger their lives. They will be ineffective.
I didn't get you.


The mood in the country is blame the system. Less effort is spent on understanding why the system does not perform to expectations. Why ? because nobody wants to hear the answer.
The answer is lack of personal integrity and courage of conviction in the majority of people.

Tronic
11 Jan 14,, 09:11
What shit has driven you out of India?

I wouldn't know where to stop. I've got property cases which have been ongoing for over 2 decades now, the bank refused to release my money from a Fixed Deposit simply because I changed my name before their bank was computerized (which resulted in another small claims court case and the hectic BS associated with courts in India), I've been scammed more than once by corrupt Indian government officials who demanded bribes for non-existent work (one of the times being in +1/grade 11 highschool where the CBSE office official in Chandigarh misled me into thinking I needed their permission for late enrollment into the school year, for which she indirectly asked for a bribe. No such permission was ever needed.), and then you have your corrupt cops waiting on every nook and corner who don't know the basic manner on how to talk to people. Your useless, illiterate MLA or MP thinks he's the King of his constituency and needs a large cavalcade to haul his ass around at the inconvenience of the local public.

Like I said, I wouldn't know where to stop... and I come from a well off family background so can't imagine how much more hell of a life it would be for someone without the money or family link ups to stay afloat.

Minskaya
11 Jan 14,, 09:58
You have hit on something that might help to explain the reaction of some of us to this. There are a couple of things about this that are particularly jarring from the POV of western posters. The first is that having reported a terrible rape to the police, the girl was basically ignored by the police and left to the mercies of the rapists, who raped her again and then burned her to death. The gruesome nature of the death alone is shocking, as is the apparent police indifference. This isn't something we are used to seeing. I can't think of a comparable case in Australia.
Good point BF. I can recall one incident in Ukraine (terribly corrupt) a few years ago where three policemen in a rural town beat and raped a married woman and tried to cover it up. The incensed local population stormed the police station with bricks, crowbars, and fire bombs. Federal police were hurriedly sent from Kyiv and the three were subsequently arrested and charged with rape/assault/conspiracy. This is the only incident I can recall in the countries where I live (Ukraine/Israel/USA) that is even remotely similar to the rape and murder cover-up in Kolkata.

Parihaka
11 Jan 14,, 10:40
An Indian died because he was attacked for no good reason and the maggot who attacked him was a trained sailor. I bet if that guy would have other than an Indian he would have been safe and sound.
Well no, we're equal opportunity thugs. We beat any number of races up for no good reason.

ambidex
11 Jan 14,, 11:52
Well no, we're equal opportunity thugs.

My point was, the bad perception about Indian men could have played a part for that women becoming edgy and violent when she was simply praised for her clothes (per media reports). A wrong perception, stereotyping about different communities is a known phenomenon.

BTW what has made you touchy if I have called that sailor a thug who killed that teacher ?

sated buddha
11 Jan 14,, 12:00
Here in the US modern defensive pistols (the good brands) can be had around 500/ 600 USD, and they are leagues ahead of this.

Were we to have guns available at 30,000 bucks a lot of kids could soon be packing a gun. That's how much they splurge of smartphones nowadays anyways, and then change when the next cool one comes along.

In retrospect, I feel 1.2 lacs is a good idea. Its not clear though if this is only going to be licensed/sold to women only, or can men also legally buy it.

antimony
11 Jan 14,, 14:20
I am sorry for being rude at you on the very first quoting you, it might have been previous posts of yours I read on other threads that added up. But now I am more confident that I wasn't wrong.

Why ?
b. Since it was a personal attack on me I think it is fare on your part to do it, I will not make it blue light vs blue. Having said that I must tell you that I am suffering from post debate stress for last 24 hours being rude and confronting with people who I think are not that bad. I do not want to diagnose my own strategy but I can not help to bring them down for greater cause.


Boss, when in hell did I personally attack you? We are all giving our perspectives on a tragedy. If you find my perspective wrong, well you have a right to that.

Anyway, you miss my point.

My point:


The positive thing is that Indian civil society is more aware and vocal about this than they were even a few years ago. If you disagree with that, well, fine
The negative thing (and actually the confusing thing to the non Indians) is that why the official machinery seems apathetic or even complicit in this crimes. This is well known to us, not to outsiders
Next: what can be done to prevent - education and giving young women the tools to counter situations like this


I see no reason to get strung up over this.

Also, I do not being anyone of us is being played around with. These guys shred their own countries and government from time to time and I join in that. I know because I frequently debate them on US politics, which is of interest to me.

Also, unlike Tronic, I am not in the US because of the shit I faced in India and I do hope to return However, when I do, I hope to go back to a society not terribly dangerous for my daughters.

sated buddha
11 Jan 14,, 16:08
I am not in the US because of the shit I faced in India and I do hope to return However, when I do, I hope to go back to a society not terribly dangerous for my daughters.

Appreciate this sentiment bro.

Every society has its own unique dangers. And its own unique kind of shit.

The thing about shit though, one is usually immune to the smell of one's own.

cdude
12 Jan 14,, 04:04
I was 14 when I first had sex. There's been a pretty steady stream since then.

Shut down the thread, everybody go home now. We have a winner.

Officer of Engineers
12 Jan 14,, 05:01
In retrospect, I feel 1.2 lacs is a good idea. Its not clear though if this is only going to be licensed/sold to women only, or can men also legally buy it.Keep your money. It's a point blank weapon which means that you're already inside your oppenant's striking range before you can use it. You're better off with a baseball bat. I'm serious.

sated buddha
12 Jan 14,, 06:27
Keep your money. It's a point blank weapon which means that you're already inside your oppenant's striking range before you can use it. You're better off with a baseball bat. I'm serious.

Thanks Colonel. Most times in India that's what normal people do for defense. Bats, hockey sticks, motorcycle fork tubes and chains, knives, and choppers, khukris, or sometimes even swords. I must admit that even I carry a few of these in the car, when on my bike, and at home. That and my two rottweilers, Chika and Sultan. Chika is currently in month 4 of Advanced Attack Training. Sultan is younger at a year old and is still the 40 kilo "puppy" of the house LOL He's in Obedience right now.

P.S. How is this one? Looks better (maybe just the wooden butt ...)

Ordnance Factory Board (http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wsc/2.htm)

Officer of Engineers
12 Jan 14,, 06:58
Nothing wrong with wood. I prefer wood stocks to synthetics mainly I "feel" I have a better grip. Maybe totally off base but I much prefer the feel of wood.

My advise is to go to your nearest gun club and seek out expert advice there. Which is the best gun you will get a 1000 opinions but what they will emphasize are the fundamentals. Firearms safety and firearms discipline. You should have those pat down even before thinking about discharging, let alone, owning a firearm.

You will also be allowed to shoot once you master safeties and disciplines. From there, you will have a much better idea what you will be looking for. Maybe even decide that firearms are not for you.

But to answer your question, I would not buy anything with less than a 4 inch barrel.

Monash
12 Jan 14,, 12:05
Oh for Pete sakes. No amount of police reform is going to prevent the first rape. The only person who can prevent the rape is the little girl herself ... as much to the teeth grinding of fathers. We can train her, teach her, prepare her the best we could but at the end of the day, she is the only one who can prevent the bastard from doing his crime

Not quite sure I agree with the above Colonel. Firstly I would argue that wholescale reform of Law Enforcement in India so that any rape, anywhere is seen to draw the full weight of local Policing down on offenders, every time, without fear or favour will have an impact on persons contemplating this crime type.

If offenders believe they can attack women, especially poor, low caste women with relative impunity they will be more inclined to do so when they sense the opportunity. Make it widely known that if you commit rape you will be hunted down, no exceptions and the incidence of rape will decline.

Secondly, I would disagree with the idea that ultimately only the women concerned can prevent her rape (by being well trained). Everyone has a role to play, bystanders who could intervene but choose not to, parents who should be setting expectations about what makes a man and how he should treat women, friends and siblings who should be saying NO. We all have a role to play, as individuals we might not be able to eliminate rape as a crime type but we can say 'not here, not now, not ever'.

Officer of Engineers
12 Jan 14,, 13:18
Not quite sure I agree with the above Colonel.You might as well say we can teach criminals not to be criminals. When presented with the crime, only one person has the chance to stop the crime in its tracks ... and that is the victim. No rapist is going to rape a woman in front of the police station ... except corrupt police.

Within context here, I will argue it is far easier to give an Indian woman a firearm, even an illegal one, then to expect Indian police to do their jobs in the near future.

Monash
12 Jan 14,, 13:59
You might not be able to teach criminals not be criminals (thats a lesson they can only teach themselves - some learn it, some don't) but you can sometimes intervene before a person starts down that path. As for stopping a crime in its tracks, bystanders, and even the criminal themselves can do that not just victims- its about the choices you make.

As for Police its not so much the sight of passing Police car or officer that is the issue, its the knowledge tha once the crime has been committed the offender knows he/she will be hunted - that the Police are out there and will come looking. If people don't believe Police will try the enforce a particular law and see/hear about them doing so then no amount of Police on the street will prevent that particular type of crime. If people know a particular force never issues speeding tickets then people will feel free to speed no matter how many Police cars drive,by.

Officer of Engineers
12 Jan 14,, 14:55
I have a serial rapist in Ottawa whose being doing his deeds for 18 months and still has not been caught. It was only last week that Ottawa Police discover the connection between various rapes.

I don't think Indian rapists will be looking for new hobbies anytime soon. So, in all reality, give the woman her gun.

Blademaster
12 Jan 14,, 16:15
You also miss the point.
The way I see its a convenient escape card we play to avoid looking at our deep social problems in the way we treat women.
We say so what, it happens in other countries too, shrug and move on.


How are we escaping this rape card? We are not. If we did, then the Indian media would not be reporting this all over and protests would not be happening. Those things did happen, contrary to your point.



Right from birth where they have to escape ultrasound abortion, to childhood where they struggle to get education and adulthood where they are treated like cash cows by inlaws.

Outside of us tiny educated middle class, womans lot is still very harsh and brutal.


And my family is doing something about. My family just recently instituted a women's center in my ancestral village nearby Bharatpur, where women could get medical assistance, education, resources, and the lot to improve their lot. It is not much by western standards, but at least it is a start. I contributed with monetary donations. Next time, when I visit India, I plan to visit there and see how's it doing and help out any way I can.

What are you doing about it? Nothing but pandering to Western (in)sensibilities and moral outrage and preaching? What is Minksaya and OOE doing about it? Nothing except preaching words.

So far my and my family actions have spoken louder than your words and you had the gall, in past and previous posts, to accuse me of not being an Indian. I didn't see you criticize Tronic when he has clearly admitted that he left India for Canada and greener pastures and then criticized India without being called for it despite his obvious leanings for the Khalistan movement, declared to be an terrorist organization by GoI.

Blademaster
12 Jan 14,, 16:21
Good point BF. I can recall one incident in Ukraine (terribly corrupt) a few years ago where three policemen in a rural town beat and raped a married woman and tried to cover it up. The incensed local population stormed the police station with bricks, crowbars, and fire bombs. Federal police were hurriedly sent from Kyiv and the three were subsequently arrested and charged with rape/assault/conspiracy. This is the only incident I can recall in the countries where I live (Ukraine/Israel/USA) that is even remotely similar to the rape and murder cover-up in Kolkata.

What about the rape in Stuevenville, Ohio, USA?

bolo121
12 Jan 14,, 16:26
How are we escaping this rape card? We are not. If we did, then the Indian media would not be reporting this all over and protests would not be happening. Those things did happen, contrary to your point.

??? Are we even talking about the same thing? We were discussing the apathy and thoughtless cruelty of the police and government. You are the only one who turned it into people 'preaching' against India.
Stop seeing everything through the blinkered prism of nationalistic pride.
Turning this discussion into a us versus them thing with the usual nasty foreigners are denigrating India theme is wrong.




And my family is doing something about. My family just recently instituted a women's center in my ancestral village nearby Bharatpur, where women could get medical assistance, education, resources, and the lot to improve their lot. It is not much by western standards, but at least it is a start.

What are you doing about it? Nothing but pandering to Western (in)sensibilities and moral outrage and preaching. What is Minksaya and OOE doing about it? Nothing except preaching words.

So far my and my family actions have spoken louder than your words and you had the gall, in past and previous posts, to accuse me of not being an Indian. I didn't see you criticize Tronic when he has clearly admitted that he left India for Canada and greener pastures and then criticized India without being called for it despite his obvious leanings for the Khalistan movement, declared to be an terrorist organization by GoI.

Awwww stop whining crybaby. Your extended family or your dad to quote earlier threads may have done stuff, stop riding on their coattails and chest beating.
Not all of us have dollars to spend. A month where I pay all my bills and have at least Rs 1000 left is a big thing for me.

ps: I never accused you of being non Indian, I explained your typical ABCD mindset to other posters.


Now coming to Tronic, if you look at the earlier threads you will see that I did argue with him on the Khalistani comments there.
I dont have any special grudge towards you, its just that he is always better at framing points and then rebutting counterpoints.
You on the other hand just charge in, flail around, with very little coherence and then when outflanked spew stuff. Its irresistibly hilarious.

Blademaster
12 Jan 14,, 16:32
And that is what this thread is all about. Shining a light on the heart of darkness. Rape is a crime that happens everywhere and in all societies. The sad truth is that deterring a determined rapist is difficult at best and in many cases virtually impossible. At the very least then, most societies demand that rapists be quickly apprehended and justice served. What struck me about this incident was not the crime itself (horrific as it was), but the 'response' of law enforcement. Rather than protecting this young victim from further harm, they lifted not a finger in her desperate hour of need. Not only were they ambivalent about her rape, but they colluded to threaten her family and cover up her murder. This attitude and behavior is disgusting and inexcusable. From the very words of Indians participating in this thread, this police 'response' is neither atypical nor an aberration. Apparently however, it is a child with many fathers.

I've ruffled some feathers here. Good. I consider that a plus. The sordid incident is being actively discussed and - post upon post, word upon word - light is being shed on the realm of darkness alluded to above.

Then why don't you bring up the rape in Stuenville, Ohio? Or the Jerry Sandusky scandal? There had been coverup of the child molestation for decades by the University higherups.

But then again, it is pointless because those things have been exposed and people are being outraged. But you seem to make it a case that is only confined to India, contrary to your later "explanations" about shining a white beacon on the darkness and how this is a good deed.

Frankly, it had already been done without your help and there are Indians and people of Indian descent doing something about it. So if you want to sit on the sidelines and be armchair generals and shout your indiginities and moral outrage, be my guest. Just know that your outbursts and shouts will be greeted with derision and contempt as I and others have. Why? because we are doing something about it.

Officer of Engineers
12 Jan 14,, 18:04
And my family is doing something about. My family just recently instituted a women's center in my ancestral village nearby Bharatpur, where women could get medical assistance, education, resources, and the lot to improve their lot. It is not much by western standards, but at least it is a start. I contributed with monetary donations. Next time, when I visit India, I plan to visit there and see how's it doing and help out any way I can.Which does nothing to stop rape. A school girl has just as much chance of being raped as a maid.


What are you doing about it? Nothing but pandering to Western (in)sensibilities and moral outrage and preaching? What is Minksaya and OOE doing about it? Nothing except preaching words.As stated, the only person who can do something about it is the rape victim. First and foremost by choosing not to be a victim.

Blademaster
12 Jan 14,, 18:36
As stated, the only person who can do something about it is the rape victim. First and foremost by choosing not to be a victim.

How? A woman is physically weaker than a man and virtually has no chance against a gang. There needs to be better paid police, freedom from political interference, more resources for women who are forced to put themselves in vulnerable, precarious situations due to their economic conditions. Equipping women with guns is laudable but not practical due to lack of training, expensive ammo, byzantine Indian laws on gun control, etc.

To me, the best way to fight against rape is to tackle the low hanging fruits which are better improved economic development which would lead to greater resources for police to have to combat against rape and greater awareness of the problem, and a consistent reinforced message to everybody that rape is not condoned and needs to be tackled.

troung
12 Jan 14,, 18:42
Then why don't you bring up the rape in Stuenville, Ohio? Or the Jerry Sandusky scandal? There had been coverup of the child molestation for decades by the University higherups.

Because I opened two threads on the Penn State scandal. Pointing to other rapes to deflect this is pathetic. Sorry I guess you can let your nationalist sense of victim monologue continue. I'm sorry you and ambien suffered so much :frown: because the world found out that horribly violent things happen to women in India while the security services in some cases tell the victims to fuck off and the moonlight as body snatchers.

The next time such an horrible act occurs from South Asia (a week or two) it would be useful if Minskaya posts it so the forum can see it and we can watch our two most pitiful members complain that this is taking away from covering of a satellite launch, harming their sense of hyper nationalism from their western homes, or whatever.

Officer of Engineers
12 Jan 14,, 19:30
How? A woman is physically weaker than a man and virtually has no chance against a gang.Primarily, by not getting into danger in the first place. Avoid the dark alleys, etc.


There needs to be better paid police, freedom from political interference, more resources for women who are forced to put themselves in vulnerable, precarious situations due to their economic conditions. Equipping women with guns is laudable but not practical due to lack of training, expensive ammo, byzantine Indian laws on gun control, etc.And as Ottawa's recent event shows, that even a 1st world police force fucks up big time with rape. We have rape cases that went unsolved for 18 months and it took the bastards 18 months to figure out a connection. In the mean time, 9 other known victims sufferred this fuck's sick mind.

Let me put it to you this way. Imagine this is your wife. No, not imagine. It is your wife. Tell me something, Hitesh, do you let her go all alone to the bad parts of town? Do you check up on her now that you learn that there is a serial rapist on the lose? Do you talk to her to have at least 911 on speed dial? Are you at least thinking of getting her a can of pepper spray?

Or do you rely on the police to catch this fuck before he has a chance to get at your wife?


To me, the best way to fight against rape is to tackle the low hanging fruits which are better improved economic development which would lead to greater resources for police to have to combat against rape and greater awareness of the problem, and a consistent reinforced message to everybody that rape is not condoned and needs to be tackled.As you pointed out, rape cover ups happen even in the US.

You're a lawyer. You know the USSC Decision that the Police is under no obligation to protect you. You also know the first responder to a rape crime is the rape victim. This has nothing to do with social justice, police budgets, etc. This has everything to do with the situation when it's your wife and the rapist. Everything else is just hot air.

Minskaya
12 Jan 14,, 20:36
But you seem to make it a case that is only confined to India...

Learn to read...


Rape is a crime that happens everywhere and in all societies. The sad truth is that deterring a determined rapist is difficult at best and in many cases virtually impossible. What struck me about this incident was not the crime itself (horrific as it was), but the 'response' of law enforcement.


What is Minksaya and OOE doing about it? Nothing except preaching words.

I can't speak for the Colonel but...


I've ruffled some feathers here. Good. I consider that a plus. The sordid incident is being actively discussed...


Just know that your outbursts and shouts will be greeted with derision and contempt as I and others have.

I daresay, what is truly contemptible is your attitude in this thread. You're beginning to resemble the Indian version of our favorite Pakistani.

Blademaster
12 Jan 14,, 21:04
Learn to read...
I have and your posts w.r.t. are pretty much India-oriented. You even threw in a post regarding a report on India's nuclear security in a thread about Olympics. By the way, that report was erroneous and has been shredded to pieces by Indian nuclear authorities. So no balanced approach right there.



I daresay, what is truly contemptible is your attitude in this thread. You're beginning to resemble the Indian version of our favorite Pakistani.

:rolleyes: So this is what you resort to... personal ad hominem attacks when somebody do not agree with your opinions and dare to challenge you and your posts.

I have been on this forum far longer than you have been and I have seen moderators come and go. You won't be the first and you won't be the last. Enjoy your pettiness or whatever you do. I just do not give a fuck about you or your opinions.

Doktor
12 Jan 14,, 21:07
I just do not give a fuck about you or your opinions.

Then why the cute reply?

Blademaster
12 Jan 14,, 21:18
Then why the cute reply?

If you do not know what a parting shot is, here is a demonstration...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6Pbc8SQwV8

Blademaster
12 Jan 14,, 21:33
Just to keep things interesting.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/5/judge-hearing-israeli-rape-case-there-are-girls-wh/

Doktor
12 Jan 14,, 21:37
This is very serious, gruesome crime that happened in India. If it happened in Denmark or Zimbabwe or even here the reaction would have been the same. We don't give a damn where it happened, but we (most of us anyway) do have serious amount of empathy for the now late girl, her family and their faith that could have been prevented. It is a shock to most of us the attitude of the police. People replying to this thread means they care. Yet, you think this is about slamming the image of India? Why?

Blademaster
12 Jan 14,, 21:50
This is very serious, gruesome crime that happened in India. If it happened in Denmark or Zimbabwe or even here the reaction would have been the same. We don't give a damn where it happened, but we (most of us anyway) do have serious amount of empathy for the now late girl, her family and their faith that could have been prevented. It is a shock to most of us the attitude of the police. People replying to this thread means they care. Yet, you think this is about slamming the image of India? Why?

Yes it is a serious problem and I never denied that but I have noticed on separate occasions, Minksaya has generalized this as an unique problem for India and implied that India was somehow backwards for it as compared to other societies. I objected to that categorization. I know rape is a serious problem in India but it is also a serious problem in her society as the links which I posted showed a similar trend. Same thing with USA and Canada. But I didn't see her go around posting links and articles about rape in her country or western societies to express her outrage against rape. Just rape in India and this was not the first time she has done that so I called her out for it for being so one-sided about it coupled with her comments of how India is a dysfunctional nation, tying the two things together. She said she ruffled some feathers on this forum and that it was better for this forum. Well, I ruffled some feathers by calling out some BS and a spade a spade and I think the forum is the better for it. It is not my problem that if Minksaya or others didn't like what I was doing.

Criticism is not a one way street but a two way street as somebody so often reminded me.

Doktor
12 Jan 14,, 22:22
Yes it is a serious problem and I never denied that but I have noticed on separate occasions, Minksaya has generalized this as an unique problem for India and implied that India was somehow backwards for it as compared to other societies.
It's the complexity of the whole case, that brings attention to this particular one. India's image is on the crossroads at the moment, on one hand people still view it as a country with fully loaded trains with skinny people, on the other you have nuclear power with satellites. More over, she claims to be the most numerous democracy in the world and the sheer numbers of Indians on the net brings more news from there every day. Both good and bad.


I objected to that categorization. I know rape is a serious problem in India but it is also a serious problem in her society as the links which I posted showed a similar trend. Same thing with USA and Canada. But I didn't see her go around posting links and articles about rape in her country or western societies to express her outrage against rape.
I wouldn't want to act like her lawyer, but...

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/field-mess/64121-3-charged-naval-academy-rape.html
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/american-politics-economy/64381-30-days-raping-minor.html
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/international-politics/64015-please-aware.html
...


Just rape in India and this was not the first time she has done that so I called her out for it for being so one-sided about it coupled with her comments of how India is a dysfunctional nation, tying the two things together. She said she ruffled some feathers on this forum and that it was better for this forum. Well, I ruffled some feathers by calling out some BS and a spade a spade and I think the forum is the better for it. It is not my problem that if Minksaya or others didn't like what I was doing.
You both have short temper on this one, her being girl and you being from Indian descent, both have horses in this race.


Criticism is not a one way street but a two way street as somebody so often reminded me.
Nope it isn't, and is good as long as it stays civil.

Monash
13 Jan 14,, 00:31
I have a serial rapist in Ottawa whose being doing his deeds for 18 months and still has not been caught. It was only last week that Ottawa Police discover the connection between various rapes.

I don't think Indian rapists will be looking for new hobbies anytime soon. So, in all reality, give the woman her gun.

Serial rapists are a special subset of individuals with severe psychological issues. Nothing short of a cage and intensive therapy will deter such men. (And most of the time therapy doesn't work either.) However the majority of rapes are not committed by such persons but by relatively 'normal' individuals who misread social cues, lose judgement due to drugs and alcohol, or are egged on by peer pressure (not an exclusive list). Those people we can do something about.

Blademaster
13 Jan 14,, 01:08
A more balanced approach/analysis to the rape problem...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/opinion/sunday/kristof-in-this-rape-case-the-victim-was-4.html?hp&rref=opinion

tantalus
13 Jan 14,, 01:16
There is clearly a very serious problem, but the fact that many rapes go unreported, that certain countries are less reliable than others for data collection and that there isn't alot of work done on this give the nature of the subject, it's difficult to draw generalised conclusions when comparing different countries. This study is worth looking at and is very disturbing, India is not one of the tested countries and note that the numbers regard interviews were men admitted to rape, the real number must be higher
Prevalence of and factors associated with non-partner rape perpetration: findings from the UN Multi-country Cross-sectional Study on Men and Violence in Asia and the Pacific : The Lancet Global Health (http://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(13)70069-X/abstract)


Regarding rape, the study’s key findings were:
Men begin perpetrating violence at much younger ages than previously thought. Half of those who admitted to rape reported their first time was as a teenager; 23 per cent of those who raped in Bougainville, Papua New Guinea, and 16 per cent in Cambodia were 14 years or younger when they first committed this crime.
Of those men who had admitted to rape, the vast majority (72-97 per cent in most places) did not face any legal consequences, confirming that impunity persists in the region.
The most common motivation that men cited for rape was related to sexual entitlement — a belief that men have a right to have sex with women regardless of consent. Over 80 per cent of men who admitted to rape in rural Bangladesh and China gave this response.
On average, 4 per cent of respondents said they had perpetrated gang rape against a woman or girl, ranging from 1 to 14 per cent across the various sites. This is the first time data from such a large sample of men has been gathered on gang rape.
- See more at: Half of men report using violence and a quarter perpetrate rape according to UN survey of 10,000 men in Asia-Pacific | UN Women - Headquarters (http://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey#sthash.Y8KHSTPH.dpuf)
The above summary of the study is from this link Half of men report using violence and a quarter perpetrate rape according to UN survey of 10,000 men in Asia-Pacific | UN Women - Headquarters (http://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey)
I highlighted the above part as it illustrates that the problem runs deep regarding attitudes and also that the study found that 25% admitted to committng rape. If possible, could someone delete the first post, sorry about that.

Blademaster
13 Jan 14,, 01:23
It's the complexity of the whole case, that brings attention to this particular one. India's image is on the crossroads at the moment, on one hand people still view it as a country with fully loaded trains with skinny people, on the other you have nuclear power with satellites. More over, she claims to be the most numerous democracy in the world and the sheer numbers of Indians on the net brings more news from there every day. Both good and bad.


I would be the first one to admit that India has serious problems, problems that India need to solve before it can be a truly first class society and this rape epidemic is one of them. I am doing my own way of combating this problem through my activities but I do not go around and say that these people are backwards. I recall one episode where I met one elder in a village and he truly had outdated notions about women and their roles in modern society. I didn't go and tell him that he is so backwards, dysfunctional, or retarded. But I engaged him in a debate and showed that such views are holding society back. Whether he agreed with me or not, I do not know but he did have a notion of different outlook before I engaged with him

As others have alluded to, half of the problem lies with lack of education and old notions of the roles of women in society. Moreover, rural police are undertrained, undereducated, undermanned, underpaid, with little resources. Despite OOE's notions of arming women with weapons which is quite impractical on a large scale, the biggest gain and improvement would be better rural development and women's educations. These things take time and do not happen overnight. Please read the article I just posted.

So if Minksaya wants Indians to do something about it, the wiser course would be not tell them that their country is a fucked up country. Indians heard it before in the days of the British Raj and the British used this as justification to prop up their (il)legitimacy of their rule over India.



I wouldn't want to act like her lawyer, but...

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/field-mess/64121-3-charged-naval-academy-rape.html
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/american-politics-economy/64381-30-days-raping-minor.html
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/international-politics/64015-please-aware.html
...


I have not read those threads. I will get to them when I get a chance. I cannot read everything on this forum and some threads do not grab my interests.



You both have short temper on this one, her being girl and you being from Indian descent, both have horses in this race.


Nope it isn't, and is good as long as it stays civil.

I have no problem staying civil but when somebody starts attacking me with personal ad hominem attacks, my gloves basically come off. After all, Minksaya is after equality for all sexes and I am practicing equality in accordance to her wishes.

Of course some tiffs turn into slugfests and frankly, I do not have time for engaging in such things because I need to reserve my energy and time for the real slugfests that I regularly undertake in courts and which I get paid for by the hour. As a result, I have placed several on my ignore list that I can safely say contribute nothing of value to this forum and just waste my time.

As a side note/story, if you want to know how a real slugfest turned out last week, I won that hearing (it was on a homeowner versus a bank in foreclosure case) and got a judge to slap sanctions on that lawyer representing the bank. It was quite a feathercap in my hat because getting sanctions on a lawyer is very hard to pull off. After that hearing, my partners took me out for drinks and tried to pull a fast one on me with a looker. Luckily I retained my wits and avoided a fight with my wife. I plan to get back at my partners soon. :biggrin:

Blademaster
13 Jan 14,, 01:35
There is clearly a very serious problem, but the fact that many rapes go unreported, that certain countries are less reliable than others for data collection and that there isn't alot of work done on this give the nature of the subject, it's difficult to draw generalised conclusions when comparing different countries. This study is worth looking at and is very disturbing, India is not one of the tested countries and note that the numbers regard interviews were men admitted to rape, the real number must be higher
Prevalence of and factors associated with non-partner rape perpetration: findings from the UN Multi-country Cross-sectional Study on Men and Violence in Asia and the Pacific : The Lancet Global Health (http://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(13)70069-X/abstract)


The above summary of the study is from this link Half of men report using violence and a quarter perpetrate rape according to UN survey of 10,000 men in Asia-Pacific | UN Women - Headquarters (http://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey)
I highlighted the above part as it illustrates that the problem runs deep regarding attitudes and also that the study found that 25% admitted to committng rape. If possible, could someone delete the first post, sorry about that.

There is a statistic that shows that women in India gets raped less than in America. But guess what? I don't believe in that statistic for one reason. It is vastly underreported. So I roll my eyes everytime, some people in India want to compare crime rate with America or another western society because it is such an useless comparision since crimes including rape largely go underreported. If the reporting rate was the same as America, I would dare say that the rape rate may be and is likely higher. I have no problem admitting that.

troung
13 Jan 14,, 01:47
I have not read those threads. I will get to them when I get a chance. I cannot read everything on this forum and some threads do not grab my interests.

A crappy lawyer makes statements without doing any research :rolleyes:

Doktor
13 Jan 14,, 01:57
I would be the first one to admit that India has serious problems, problems that India need to solve before it can be a truly first class society and this rape epidemic is one of them. I am doing my own way of combating this problem through my activities but I do not go around and say that these people are backwards. I recall one episode where I met one elder in a village and he truly had outdated notions about women and their roles in modern society. I didn't go and tell him that he is so backwards, dysfunctional, or retarded. But I engaged him in a debate and showed that such views are holding society back. Whether he agreed with me or not, I do not know but he did have a notion of different outlook before I engaged with him
Over here we can only preach, since this is a forum, down on the field we can work with deeds.


As others have alluded to, half of the problem lies with lack of education and old notions of the roles of women in society. Moreover, rural police are undertrained, undereducated, undermanned, underpaid, with little resources. Despite OOE's notions of arming women with weapons which is quite impractical on a large scale, the biggest gain and improvement would be better rural development and women's educations. These things take time and do not happen overnight. Please read the article I just posted.
Frankly, the part with the role of the women in Indian society wrt the total disrespect shown in some attitudes confuses me, after all India was among first to have a female PM. Another thing that is confusing me is how they rule such a vast and populated country with so few police officers who are "undertrained, undereducated, undermanned, underpaid, with little resources." If that's so serious of a problem they could have saved here and there and properly fund the police. The main issue seems to be the corruption, which judging by some of the posts around here is staggering.


So if Minksaya wants Indians to do something about it, the wiser course would be not tell them that their country is a fucked up country. Indians heard it before in the days of the British Raj and the British used this as justification to prop up their (il)legitimacy of their rule over India.
I agree that if one offers advice and wants someone to listen to them, they shouldn't throw insults, generalizations or comparison with others. We are all miserable in our own ways, so we don't need someone to rub salt to our injuries. I have noticed that most of the posters here are willing to criticize "theirs", but get somewhat furious when outsiders hop in. Me included.


I have not read those threads. I will get to them when I get a chance. I cannot read everything on this forum and some threads do not grab my interests.
They are few (there are more) threads started by Minnie considering rape in various places. Again, I am not defending her, just bringing the whole picture.


I have no problem staying civil but when somebody starts attacking me with personal ad hominem attacks, my gloves basically come off. After all, Minksaya is after equality for all sexes and I am practicing equality in accordance to her wishes.
Seems you both hit some of each other's nerves.


Of course some tiffs turn into slugfests and frankly, I do not have time for engaging in such things because I need to reserve my energy and time for the real slugfests that I regularly undertake in courts and which I get paid for by the hour. As a result, I have placed several on my ignore list that I can safely say contribute nothing of value to this forum and just waste my time.
Better safe then sorry, eh? :red:


As a side note/story, if you want to know how a real slugfest turned out last week, I won that hearing (it was on a homeowner versus a bank in foreclosure case) and got a judge to slap sanctions on that lawyer representing the bank. It was quite a feathercap in my hat because getting sanctions on a lawyer is very hard to pull off. After that hearing, my partners took me out for drinks and tried to pull a fast one on me with a looker. Luckily I retained my wits and avoided a fight with my wife. I plan to get back at my partners soon. :biggrin:
Ah, lawyers :tankie:

Officer of Engineers
13 Jan 14,, 01:58
Despite OOE's notions of arming women with weapons which is quite impractical on a large scale,And here is where you're not understanding. It is not India's job to arm women. It is the husband's, the father, the brother, the mother, the sister, the wife, and most importantly, the young woman. As shown through out this thread, the police either cannot or will not protect you when you're all alone facing your attacker. No one else is there but you two. Yadda, yadda, yadda that you should have been able to avoid it, doing something else, the attacker should have known better, be more scared ... whatever. It is now you and your attacker and what you have on you ... and what you can grab nearby, a rock, a branch, whatever.

Blademaster
13 Jan 14,, 02:05
And here is where you're not understanding. It is not India's job to arm women. It is the husband's, the father, the brother, the mother, the sister, the wife, and most importantly, the young woman. As shown through out this thread, the police either cannot or will not protect you when you're all alone facing your attacker. No one else is there but you two. Yadda, yadda, yadda that you should have been able to avoid it, doing something else, the attacker should have known better, be more scared ... whatever. It is now you and your attacker and what you have on you ... and what you can grab nearby, a rock, a branch, whatever.

For a guy, it is easier to say that because we are more predisposed to those things. But when it comes to the actual situation, how do you deal with the paralysis that fear creates or brings? In most situation, most women are simply paralyzed with fear, unable to move which is why they are such easy prey. Of course there are notable exceptions.

What you are advocating would require many hours of training and education which goes along the lines I have been saying. But there comes a risk because not in every situation the woman would win. If she fights back, she is at greater risk of injury since the man who got hurt or slashed may decide to kill her after having his way with her.

The best defense is to run away from a situation into a place of safety or carry some sort of device that would scare off the to be rapist.

Officer of Engineers
13 Jan 14,, 02:10
What you are advocating would require many hours of training and education which goes along the lines I have been saying. But there comes a risk because not in every situation the woman would win. If she fights back, she is at greater risk of injury since the man who got hurt or slashed may decide to kill her after having his way with her.There's an incident here in Ottawa a few years ago. A young female jogger was found dead after she left on her run. She was obviously raped before she died. She was strangled from the back, meaning the man raped her with her face down, with no chance to fight back. She's dead.

Fighting back may or may not have saved her ... but it was her only chance.

cdude
13 Jan 14,, 02:19
A crappy lawyer makes statements without doing any research :rolleyes:

You jelly. Did you read the part that our hero just beat down another lawyer and our hero's partner tried to hook him up with a "looker"? And our hero "retained his wits" and stayed loyal to his wife.

What have you done lately?

But the winner in this thread is still the indian dude who first "had sex at 14" which raised the question what the heck does that have anything to do with anything.

troung
13 Jan 14,, 02:44
You jelly. Did you read the part that our hero just beat down another lawyer and our hero's partner tried to hook him up with a "looker"? And our hero "retained his wits" and stayed loyal to his wife.

LOL - wouldn't hire him to hold my place in line at a McDonald's.


What have you done lately?

ummm... battered a few uber nationalists one whom doesn't like to read and stuff and both complain in a thread about a violent gang rape and blundered police cover up of said rape and murder how they are the real victims... but hey I simply can't compare with that... had I been warned ahead of time I would have showed the proper deference.


But the winner in this thread is still the indian dude who first "had sex at 14" which raised the question what the heck does that have anything to do with anything.

I will resist urge to make a comment.

lemontree
13 Jan 14,, 05:18
I'll take your word for it, having never been more East than Darjeeling myself. What is that attributable to? Mixed schools? I think you and I both know that in our country the only one-gender schools are predominantly the missionary ones. i.e. the costly ones, the ones which the elite go to. Government and most aided schools are mixed gender. The ones 95% of our kids go to. Are you saying the sexual frustration and predatory crimes stem from this top 5% of our middle class population?
Please redo your research and you shall get a proper picture, all missionary school in the NE are co-ed. This is one of the aspects and a very important one.

- The other aspect is the treatment of women in the rural areas - I am sure you are aware that in all rural areas (even in the industrial regions), a girl is considered unclean during her menstural cycle and is not permitted to enter the kitchen.
- A widow is considered bad luck and is not invited for weddings and feast (even by the family). I wonder why a widower is not considered bad luck!


I was 14 when I first had sex. There's been a pretty steady stream since then. A lot of hormones does not have to equate to desperation. Not if you know how to get some.
You were a lucky one. :biggrin:

lemontree
13 Jan 14,, 05:32
I wouldn't know where to stop. I've got property cases which have been ongoing for over 2 decades now,...
So have my family, what has the state got to do with it?


the bank refused to release my money from a Fixed Deposit simply because I changed my name before their bank was computerized (which resulted in another small claims court case and the hectic BS associated with courts in India),
All that is needed is proof of change of name. When you change your name you carry out a small legal process in a court. A copy of that document is more than sufficient. Dont blame the security systems of a bank to safe guard a customer's money.


I've been scammed more than once by corrupt Indian government officials who demanded bribes for non-existent work (one of the times being in +1/grade 11 highschool where the CBSE office official in Chandigarh misled me into thinking I needed their permission for late enrollment into the school year, for which she indirectly asked for a bribe. No such permission was ever needed.),
Did you complain against them?...why blame the country?


and then you have your corrupt cops waiting on every nook and corner who don't know the basic manner on how to talk to people.
I deal with cops a lot of times (and I never use my former military past with them), they behave the way you behave with them. Punjab is no acception.
They are a harassed over worked lot.

Your useless, illiterate MLA or MP thinks he's the King of his constituency and needs a large cavalcade to haul his ass around at the inconvenience of the local public.

Tronic, the above are no reason why your life was "miserable" in India. You and many people like my relatives have gone abroad because a developed nation offers better systems for a person to grow economically. India is far better than most countries on planet earth inspite of its cons, and there are many pros that outweight the cons.

lemontree
13 Jan 14,, 08:10
So its a little clearer to me now, your line of reasoning. Are you advocating mixed gender schools so that our kids can have the access and opportunity to have sex so that they do not grow into sex starved desperate pressure cookers waiting to explode on our streets?


Lol...no my friend. Mixed gender/ co-ed schools inculcate respect and ease of interacting with the opposite sex. The kids will never have the luck that you had, maybe some would, but they will be at ease in the company of the opposite sex. The boys will learn to see and understand girls as their equals and not as a piece of "ass". They will learn how to woo a girl and not resort to the caveman tactics that is prevalent today.

sated buddha
13 Jan 14,, 08:59
Please redo your research and you shall get a proper picture, all missionary school in the NE are co-ed. This is one of the aspects and a very important one.

Thanks. I did not know that. The NE has been on my riding/driving radar for some time now. Basically a Darjeeling, Sikkim, Bhutan, Arunachal one, and maybe another time, one that will include the 7 sisters. I would love to go there and sample the food and culture and natural beauty firsthand.

But the point still remains. Yes in the NE missionary schools may be the norm and not only for the upper class. But in the rest of the country, where this rape thing is happening, mixed gender government and aided schools are already the norm. So that kind of nixes your argument does it not?


- The other aspect is the treatment of women in the rural areas - I am sure you are aware that in all rural areas (even in the industrial regions), a girl is considered unclean during her menstural cycle and is not permitted to enter the kitchen.
- A widow is considered bad luck and is not invited for weddings and feast (even by the family). I wonder why a widower is not considered bad luck!

Bro, not so much the widow bit now at least, but the menstruating unclean thing cuts across urban-rural, rich-poor, caste and religious lines, educated and uneducated. Every religion is basically pretty much having similar views on this. There is no faith which is ok with a menstruating woman entering a place of worship. How is that misogynist in any way? Its 4-5 days of the month. Its not like the whole of womanhood is being brought to a grinding halt socially en masse.

But I agree and the points made earlier. The attitude of a whole lot of us towards women in general suck big time and its time male kids growing up see different role models at home. Because they will deal with women just like they have seen their fathers and uncles and brothers and cousins deal with their mothers and sisters and aunts and female cousins at home. Not everyone grows up to be a criminal and I do not believe anyone is born a criminal. But the rapists are those who have had a dysfunctional upbringing in terms of women. And I guess all would agree here that in India at least, its also the women of the house who perpetuate this gender skew. They grew up a certain way, and they perpetuate the same as adults. With their daughters first, and then with the daughter in laws.


You were a lucky one. :biggrin:

I was not boasting or anything and I'm sorry it came out (to some) as juvenile locker room bragging. Just putting a point forward to explain that just because you do not go to school with girls does not mean you grow up sex starved and desperate. There are (and were in my/our time as well) many avenues for "extra-curricular" sex. Not just in our cities, but in fact more in our villages and small towns. Its just that we have perfected the art of camoflaging it nicely. :) A society wchich grows to a size of 1.2 billion and which wrote the Kamasutra, does not need to learn much from others about sex, nor has it ever been short on it in any way or form.

The other point of discussion was that if kids are going to have sex, why not put them in schools together? Well, I am still of the opinion that schools are places of learning where boys and girls with their own geneder can grow up a lot more naturally and comfortably without being prey to peer pressure, social pressures, pressure to look good, flaunt money, be popular, hang with the cool crowd etc. Also the reason why I prefer schools with uniforms and strict rules about kids coming to school on bikes, cars of their own. As I said, these views may or may not find consonance with others here. But they have worked for generations of us, for me and my wife as well, and we turned out pretty good, so we prefer to give our girls the same type of schooling and formative years. Its one of the parenting choices all of us make. There is no right or wrong.


Lol...no my friend. Mixed gender/ co-ed schools inculcate respect and ease of interacting with the opposite sex. The kids will never have the luck that you had, maybe some would, but they will be at ease in the company of the opposite sex. The boys will learn to see and understand girls as their equals and not as a piece of "ass". They will learn how to woo a girl and not resort to the caveman tactics that is prevalent today.

Please see my above argument. Its not about luck. Studying in a boys only school does not mean one leads a life of chastity for the first 12 years of his schooling life. There is a world outside of school as well, a social world, a world of your home and neighborhood. Of clubs and marriages and functions and festivals and social gatherings and parties and picnics and outings and holidays. Al of these shape the mind and attitude and morals and values of a kid. School helps, but the school is not the primary mover here. A boy growing up in a household with his mother and sister as second class people, will learn different in a mixed school, but he is powerless to buck the trend at home. By the time he grows up and becomes an adult, he may well consciously know what is right and what is wrong, that women need to be treated this way and not this way, but the growing up years have already made him what he is subliminally and subconsciously he is already a chauvinist like his father.

The same argument holds good for boys growing up in households where the father and mother, sisters and brothers, are equals. He is not going to become an ass groping pervert potential rapist or wife beater beause he goes to a boys only school. He is still (like me and all my friends) going to have a healthy interest in girls outside of his school hours, have friends who are girls outside of his school, and look forward to the 10th std boys school-girls school social where his father is going to ceremoniously give him his first razor and help him shave for the first time and slap on some of the "man" Old Spice after that (memories!).

Sorry bro, but I do not buy this mixed school argument in terms of this rape discussion.

lemontree
13 Jan 14,, 09:52
But in the rest of the country, where this rape thing is happening, mixed gender government and aided schools are already the norm. So that kind of nixes your argument does it not?
Well then there must be a deeper rot in our culture!

But leaving semantics aside, I'll give you some data from the - 7th All India School Education Survey, by NCERT
http://www.ncert.nic.in/programmes/education_survey/pdfs/Schools_Physical_Ancillary_Facilities.pdf

Delhi
Rural schools - 218 - Boys: 48; Girls: 62; Co-ed 108 (only about 50% are coed)
Urban schools - 1889 - Boys: 551; Girls: 564; Co-ed: 774
Total - 2107 - Boys: 599; Girls: 626; Co-ed: 882

Mizoram
Rural schools - 938 - Boys: 0; Girls: 0; Co-ed 938 (100% coed)
Urban schools - 315 - Boys: 0; Girls: 0; Co-ed: 315
Total - 1253 - Boys: 0; Girls: 0; Co-ed: 1253

The below webpage give a picture of the "rape map of India" - just take it as a data source.
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/01/03/a-rape-map-of-india/

The 2011 data shows Delhi had 572 reported rape cases, while Mizoram had 77 rape cases in contrast. Thereby, indicating that my prognosis is correct.

sated buddha
13 Jan 14,, 10:00
Well then there must be a deeper rot in our culture!

To be honest, as a younger man, with some exposure to girls from other cultures, I did sometimes wonder at the amount of airs and tantrums and attitude and general painful level of engagement our girls put us though before we could get some action. Most Indian men will lament that Indian girls just do not put out enough. But these are the young unmarried men.

Then we marry. And we (the whole shebang from groom to father, mother, aunt, uncle, grnadfather, grandmother, curious lookerons, etc.) want virgins, untouched by another male hand.

And then we have daughters. Man how times change.

sated buddha
13 Jan 14,, 10:32
But leaving semantics aside, I'll give you some data from the - 7th All India School Education Survey, by NCERT
http://www.ncert.nic.in/programmes/education_survey/pdfs/Schools_Physical_Ancillary_Facilities.pdf

Good data.


The 2011 data shows Delhi had 572 reported rape cases, while Mizoram had 77 rape cases in contrast. Thereby, indicating that my prognosis is correct.

Not really. Delhi from the rape map has some 6000+ rapes, the NE around 2000+. Same with the West 2000+. South is 3000+. The BIMARU states add another 10000+ (5000 for the cow belt and MP and 4000 for the East)

What the map does not show you is the fact that Delhi is filled to the brim with migrants from UP and Bihar, whose women are back in their villages for months, year on year, while they come to the city for work.

These guys belong to a socioeconomic strata that cannot even afford enough to go to a whore regularly.

No mixed gender schools are going to help here. Its about perceptions and access. One comes from upbringing, the other from pure economics.

lemontree
13 Jan 14,, 10:50
What the map does not show you is the fact that Delhi is filled to the brim with migrants from UP and Bihar, whose women are back in their villages for months, year on year, while they come to the city for work.

These guys belong to a socioeconomic strata that cannot even afford enough to go to a whore regularly.

No mixed gender schools are going to help here. Its about perceptions and access. One comes from upbringing, the other from pure economics.

There is something else, that I found in the data w.r.t Uttar Pradesh. The state has 97% of co-ed schools, but still records a very high % of crimes against women. This has got to be a cultutal trait. Most crimes in rural areas are more of crimes of vengence, where the women of the opponents house are targetted.

For urban areas - the issue is the growth of slums. Slums are a breeding ground for delinquency.

sated buddha
13 Jan 14,, 11:15
The state has 97% of co-ed schools, but still records a very high % of crimes against women. This has got to be a cultutal trait.

Agree. It comes from the home and the neighborhood. Education or mixed gender schools will have very little impact.

That was my limited point.

ambidex
13 Jan 14,, 12:20
if Minskaya posts it so the forum can see it and we can watch our two most pitiful members complain that this is taking away from covering of a satellite launch, harming their sense of hyper nationalism from their western homes, or whatever.

Stop talking for others. It is sign of "you lost it''. I have told you couple of moons ago as well in a different thread.

Minskaya the moderator you are talking for, posted a cheap link of Assam Rape festival in this very thread. It tells a lot about traits, what I mildly called 'habits'. The same traits are seen on many anti India forum where even they have blanket ban on Indian IPs. People participating in those forums are the same breed who pretend here to be more judicious and balanced.

You wanted Indians to denounce the crime, they did. You wanted them to criticize the system and police, they rather offered more than that. What you have done so far ? Nothing but bitching and making personal attacks on others.

ambidex
13 Jan 14,, 12:44
Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
Minskaya: You have hit on something that might help to explain the reaction of some of us to this. .

Disagree,

Israelis will be last people on earth reacting on any crimes with surprise and exasperation. You are the nation who teaches and groom your school going Kids about worst crimes happened ever in human history, to ~avenge or not let it happen again.

@ Bigfella; Western world has witnessed more disgusting crimes. So please stop this holier than thou nonsense or being surprised. You can not compare crimes happening in India with what has had happened in western world. Your criminals can beat India criminals any day by great margin.

1. Your criminals are more clever and hard to to get. The example has been posted by OOE.
Look for examples into this particular crime. The bastards after committing this crime came out in open, tried to bully their way upon police (though were able to compromise them at lowest police chownki level ), exposed their motive by suppressing the witness/complainant and proves. Agitated the society in a big outlandish way. Do you know what it mean ? They were not only heinous criminals but top class Idiots. All they will do is to wait for the verdict and rot in Indian jails without being asked to say anything in their defence.

2. Your world might not been witnessing worst crimes now like they might have witnessed before. In my very opening post I have mentioned about Economy. Your Economies became better than rest, you were able to afford reforms, more forces, better equipment, and most important reach remote areas with same facilities and enforcement standards like you have for Urban (actually better than Urban) areas.

Minskaya
13 Jan 14,, 13:03
Progress. Perhaps the powers-that-be are beginning to get it. I hope it is lasting development and continues long after the media glare dimmers.



Cops offer protection to Gaighata rape survivor
Jan 13, 2014

KOLKATA: Jittery after the high court prod on the Madhyamgram gang-rape case, police took no chance as a 15-year-old teenager in Gaighata complained of gang rape on Friday evening. They not only arrested the three accused named in the FIR by Saturday night, but went a step ahead to place a 24X7 police picket at the survivor's home. Several top cops and food minister Jyotipriyo Mullick made a beeline on Sunday to reach out to the survivor and assure her of complete protection.
Source: Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/Cops-offer-protection-to-Gaighata-rape-survivor/articleshow/28721212.cms)

Officer of Engineers
13 Jan 14,, 14:59
1. Your criminals are more clever and hard to to get. The example has been posted by OOE.This point does NOT support your position. What you all don't get, including BF and Minsk, is that the police is not your women's first nor last line of defence. Your women are the first, last, and only line of defence.

Oh yay, young horny fucks are beginning to learn to date the Palm Sisters instead of gangbanging.

So now, you're left with those who knows how to hide their identity ... or to kill on sight after they done to deed to leave no witnesses.

Oh gee, your women are so much safer.

cdude
13 Jan 14,, 15:25
Disagree,

Israelis will be last people on earth reacting on any crimes with surprise and exasperation. You are the nation who teaches and groom your school going Kids about worst crimes happened ever in human history, to ~avenge or not let it happen again.

@ Bigfella; Western world has witnessed more disgusting crimes. So please stop this holier than thou nonsense or being surprised. You can not compare crimes happening in India with what has had happened in western world. Your criminals can beat India criminals any day by great margin.

1. Your criminals are more clever and hard to to get. The example has been posted by OOE.
Look for examples into this particular crime. The bastards after committing this crime came out in open, tried to bully their way upon police (though were able to compromise them at lowest police chownki level ), exposed their motive by suppressing the witness/complainant and proves. Agitated the society in a big outlandish way. Do you know what it mean ? They were not only heinous criminals but top class Idiots. All they will do is to wait for the verdict and rot in Indian jails without being asked to say anything in their defence.

2. Your world might not been witnessing worst crimes now like they might have witnessed before. In my very opening post I have mentioned about Economy. Your Economies became better than rest, you were able to afford reforms, more forces, better equipment, and most important reach remote areas with same facilities and enforcement standards like you have for Urban (actually better than Urban) areas.

I am with you, my fellow third world brother. Those westerners are up for no good. We should unite together as Chairman Mao said and put them in their places.

Let me hand you some ammunition. Next time if a UK guy come talk smack to your country, show him this:
Raped SIXTY times in hospital: Mental health patient reveals shocking abuse on wards dubbed ''playgrounds for predators'' - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/raped-sixty-times-hospital-mental-3016375)

sated buddha
13 Jan 14,, 15:30
So now, you're left with those who knows how to hide their identity ... or to kill on sight after they done to deed to leave no witnesses.

Oh gee, your women are so much safer.

Colonel, this is the gut instinct resistance (reluctance if you wish) many of us living here have about your idea of giving people guns. Sure some women will get armed. We will even hear of some women shooting and killing some rapists (more power to that ..... if it ended there). But soon the word will get around. And rapists will arm themselves as well before going on their hunt. And a lot more women will die, shot out of hand, than will rapists eventually. Today women get raped. Tomorrow they will get shot at the first sign of resistance. Or after the act. I have no unrealistic hopes of wide scale police reform as is being discussed here. They are undermanned, underpaid, and collared with a variety of chains and shackles. They are not the problem or the solution. They are just the symptom. One of many.

Officer of Engineers
13 Jan 14,, 15:37
So instead of rape, you have a gun battle. What the rapists wants in the first place.

My wanting to arm my daughter (I could care less about my ex-wife) is not going to stop a rapist. What it does do, however, is to make him go after someone else who isn't armed, ie a softer target. Yes, all I did was to force the rapist to rape someone else. I much rather kill the fuck out right but at least, it's not my daughter.

Mihais
13 Jan 14,, 17:39
Colonel, this is the gut instinct resistance (reluctance if you wish) many of us living here have about your idea of giving people guns. Sure some women will get armed. We will even hear of some women shooting and killing some rapists (more power to that ..... if it ended there). But soon the word will get around. And rapists will arm themselves as well before going on their hunt. And a lot more women will die, shot out of hand, than will rapists eventually. Today women get raped. Tomorrow they will get shot at the first sign of resistance. Or after the act. I have no unrealistic hopes of wide scale police reform as is being discussed here. They are undermanned, underpaid, and collared with a variety of chains and shackles. They are not the problem or the solution. They are just the symptom. One of many.

This argument about criminals getting armed is a cliche.I'd really like to see a proof.And even with armed criminals you're still better with guns.The average man is stronger,faster and more vicious than the average woman.A criminal with an UZI or AK is better armed than a potential victim with a Makarov.But in the engagement area,at very close distance,the victims have a much better chance of winning a fight.If detterence doesn't work.And btw,there's no detterence in your scenario.

sated buddha
13 Jan 14,, 17:50
This argument about criminals getting armed is a cliche.I'd really like to see a proof.And even with armed criminals you're still better with guns.The average man is stronger,faster and more vicious than the average woman.A criminal with an UZI or AK is better armed than a potential victim with a Makarov.But in the engagement area,at very close distance,the victims have a much better chance of winning a fight.If detterence doesn't work.And btw,there's no detterence in your scenario.

I agree and I disagree with you. Some pages back I entered the discussion saying that in India at least the best deterrence is prevention. Common sense, street smartness. Guns are or may be a short term solution. But the flood gates once opened cannot be reversed. And the alternative to what we have today is an armed society. And all that follows.

Will the cure be worse than the disease then?

antimony
13 Jan 14,, 18:10
Progress. Perhaps the powers-that-be are beginning to get it. I hope it is lasting development and continues long after the media glare dimmers.


Source: Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata/Cops-offer-protection-to-Gaighata-rape-survivor/articleshow/28721212.cms)

You see the point I was making earlier? This case got noticed due to the media glare on the previous one, as well as the turning up of screws by the courts. If this happened a year later, there would probably have been no action from the police.

In conclusion, if you want to get justice on an individual crime, involve the media and courts directly without just relying on the police

Mihais
13 Jan 14,, 18:32
I agree and I disagree with you. Some pages back I entered the discussion saying that in India at least the best deterrence is prevention. Common sense, street smartness. Guns are or may be a short term solution. But the flood gates once opened cannot be reversed. And the alternative to what we have today is an armed society. And all that follows.

Will the cure be worse than the disease then?

Look,people have been armed since the first Homo Habilis grabbed a rock.Since then we did it quite well.Weapons are already a long term solution.
And what exactly follows?

I know the drill from the beloved motherland.Exactly the same speech,like you drank water from one another. :biggrin:

You can't cheat mathematics though.You get safer streets with more armed people.Particularly when it comes t o violent crime.

sated buddha
13 Jan 14,, 19:11
You get safer streets with more armed people.Particularly when it comes t o violent crime.

I'm not so sure about that. Being shot is pretty final. With other sort of violence you at least have a chance of survival. I'd fancy my chances against a guy with a knife a lot more than against a guy with a gun. You and other gun proponents would say, well get a gun yourself. Two guys facing off with guns is still going to be more lethal than two guys facing off with knives. And the chances of everyone getting a gun are way lower (at least in India) than everyone getting a knife. And even that's not happening. If guns were truly the answer to violent crime, then there would be no violent crime in the US and Pakistan. Or much lesser than non gun owning societies like India or England. Is that the case? Are US and Pakistani streets really safer than Indian streets? Forget the US. Uttar Pradesh is one of the highest gun owning (legal and illegal) states if not the highest in India. Are UP streets safer than those in the rest of India? Ask any Indian.

Some statistics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Rate of homicides per 100,000

Pakistan 7.8
US 4.7
India 3.5
UK 1.2

Officer of Engineers
13 Jan 14,, 19:29
Two guys facing off with guns is still going to be more lethal than two guys facing off with knives.Two guys with sidearms with zero training are going to run away from the fight with hits on everything except what they're aiming for.

sated buddha
13 Jan 14,, 19:39
Two guys with sidearms with zero training are going to run away from the fight with hits on everything except what they're aiming for.

With knives, you have to get close to actually even touch the other guy. If one runs, the other either runs after him and chases him down or throws the knife.

A bullet will always go further and fly faster than a man (or woman) can run.

A gun will be a great equalizer in a society which already has a lot of guns. Then it will become a survival aid more than a deterrent. But a lot of people will die before it comes to that level.

And a lot more people will die after that level is breached towards the point of cascading no return.

Officer of Engineers
13 Jan 14,, 20:27
If you're any indication, then I don't have to worry. You were going to buy a .22 belly gun with a two and a half inch barrel. Before you can do any damage with a firearm, you have to hit what your'e aiming at. MY GROUPING with such a firearm at 10 feet is probably 36 inches. I doubt YOU could even hit a man size target.

During my competition days, my groupings with my 9mm PB Beretta was 4 inches and I was training up to a 1000 rounds a week.

You would be far more lethal with a knife in your hands than the belly gun you were going to buy.

Mihais
13 Jan 14,, 20:57
With knives, you have to get close to actually even touch the other guy. If one runs, the other either runs after him and chases him down or throws the knife.

A bullet will always go further and fly faster than a man (or woman) can run.

A gun will be a great equalizer in a society which already has a lot of guns. Then it will become a survival aid more than a deterrent. But a lot of people will die before it comes to that level.

And a lot more people will die after that level is breached towards the point of cascading no return.


Yes,you need to be close.As a matter of fact,you're more lethal with a knife at anything beyween 0-6m.The trick is to move and shoot if faced with such a scenario.As the Colonel said,you're unlikely to hit the attacker unless you spend half a magazine,at least.But he will crap himself and that will work as well.
As you are now,you're in more danger.Statistics of homicides are rubbish,unless you compare apples with apples.You have Pakistan,which has insurgencies going on in Balochistan and ''other issues'' :rolleyes: ,US which has a problem with gangs and illegals,India,of which I know nothing crime wise and UK,which is the de riguer element of comparison.What have these societies in common that is relevant?Almost nothing.

Do you want to compare anything,try comparing roughly similar situations.Try Spain and Portugal for example.And try to observe the trends and the reactions to measures such as restrictions/lack of restrictions over time.Does crime falls or rises?What sort of crime?What sort of measures results in a more rapid fall/increase in crime.Because you might falling trend in crime regardless of the presence or absence of guns.

Guns are part of the picture.So you need to watch the problem from various angles,or you're guaranteed to miss their impact.

Doktor
13 Jan 14,, 21:30
With knives, you have to get close to actually even touch the other guy. If one runs, the other either runs after him and chases him down or throws the knife.

A bullet will always go further and fly faster than a man (or woman) can run.

A gun will be a great equalizer in a society which already has a lot of guns. Then it will become a survival aid more than a deterrent. But a lot of people will die before it comes to that level.

And a lot more people will die after that level is breached towards the point of cascading no return.

I would recommend you to lurk some of the gun control topics around.

lemontree
14 Jan 14,, 05:20
If you're any indication, then I don't have to worry. You were going to buy a .22 belly gun with a two and a half inch barrel. Before you can do any damage with a firearm, you have to hit what your'e aiming at. MY GROUPING with such a firearm at 10 feet is probably 36 inches. I doubt YOU could even hit a man size target.

During my competition days, my groupings with my 9mm PB Beretta was 4 inches and I was training up to a 1000 rounds a week.

You would be far more lethal with a knife in your hands than the belly gun you were going to buy.

Sir, if you are referring to the IOF revolver, then a small correction, it is .32 cal (7.65mm) and has a 3 inch long barrel.
I've never fired it of course so I cannot give you a review about it.

I used the 9mm IOF pistol (Browning copy), while in service.

Officer of Engineers
14 Jan 14,, 05:39
Sir, if you are referring to the IOF revolver, then a small correction, it is .32 cal (7.65mm) and has a 3 inch long barrel.No, Buddha posted another link to another sidearm with a smaller calibre and barrel. Both a Saturday Night Special.


I used the 9mm IOF pistol (Browning copy), while in service.From what google tells me, it's a rechambered 45ACP.

Well, it will outlast an AK47.

ambidex
14 Jan 14,, 06:31
I would recommend you to lurk some of the gun control topics around.

I agree, but Guns in Indian Context is totally a different discussion which WAB topics may not be able to cater.

Using this opportunity:

I had a long discussion on a different forum on this, and my premise was that instead of becoming a tool of self defence, easily available guns will become an instrument/easy way out from financial miseries and disparity. Then every gun sold has to be negated by better guns for law and enforcement agencies. Not only that, even an instance of typical self defence where a fire arm is used, it has to go through litigation process/ more scrutiny of courts because of its lethality.

It will take a decade and more for the defender to come out clean and it is far more a time span than what developed nation's courts takes to dispense the verdict. I am not saying that this sluggish justice system is an excuse to forfeit your own actions/right of self defence, it should never be, but it is another painstaking injury (mental) which the defender has to endure. The right to self defence has to be supported by courts with very clear, fast and pro defender clauses/laws, like USA has. In an absence of such modalities or presence of such constrains/complication the first line of defence especially for weaker section society is always going to be police or fear of police.

Digressing:

BTW have you studied medico-legal aspects or rape, alleged rape and rape as a mental and physical injury/assault ? I have. It was one of the detailed chapter of our first clinical book in year 2-3. C.K Parikh' Textbook of Medical Jurisprudence Forensic Medicine and Toxicology. The rural women/ labour class defends physical assault better than middle/high class urban women in India.

Good thing is women caring about Physical fitness, going to gyms, and learning self defence is becoming increasing trend in urban India these days.
...
She was living in an alien state where she might not have been able to speak the local language, her vulnerability increased many folds. The bastards wouldn't have dared to commit the crime against local girl.

Officer of Engineers
14 Jan 14,, 11:30
Oh come on! When someone is pouring gasoline on top of you, the last thing you will be thinking is how the police can help you!

ambidex
14 Jan 14,, 12:32
Oh come on! When someone is pouring gasoline on top of you, the last thing you will be thinking is how the police can help you!

Sir,

Right to self defence is given, it is a natural human instinct. She might had, but was over powered. Why it should be a discussion ?

Even strongest of and armed people react differently in different situation.

Once I was told by my brother-in -law who served IAF (now retired) that now in civilian life even having a gun but being in a situation alone shown point of a gun by a goon he will run away as fast, as far as he can, after stopping for a breath he will run again.

Officer of Engineers
14 Jan 14,, 14:40
Right to self defence is given, it is a natural human instinct. She might had, but was over powered. Why it should be a discussion ?The point is that the police being the first line of defence is just pure hogwash. They're not there to stop this murder and while rape may not be a "grave" cime in India, murder certainly is. These fucks were not deterred.


Once I was told by my brother-in -law who served IAF (now retired) that now in civilian life even having a gun but being in a situation alone shown point of a gun by a goon he will run away as fast, as far as he can, after stopping for a breath he will run again.And I absolutely agree with him. A gun fight changes you, even if you win, and not for the good but you're alive.

Double Edge
15 Jan 14,, 14:43
I didn't get you.
For a leader to be effective they have to take decisions, in the course of doing so they are going to alienate certain sections of society. Depending on who they alienate they could be looking at a death sentence without adequate protection.

Your point is about how they always have Z security, cops are always tasked into protecting them over society.

Well, then hire more cops. But we don't have the budget. We must make do with what we have. Then things remains the same. No point getting outraged, just accept it as a fact of life until more funding is found.


The answer is lack of personal integrity and courage of conviction in the majority of people.
I think the cops can only act within the resources they have. I'm not blaming culture or anything more. Just follow the money.

I have to note not a single person has challenged me on this point.


Because fathers can see this happening to our little girls. That little girl had a father who is in very, very much pain. We can see ourselves in his place.
I don't see why this cannot also apply to any cop in India. Current problem is they were just as helpless in this case.

Blademaster
15 Jan 14,, 17:40
Here is a story of an Indian woman who got raped and got her revenge afterwards.

Phoolan Devi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoolan_Devi)

Not a pretty story.

Blademaster
15 Jan 14,, 17:49
You jelly. Did you read the part that our hero just beat down another lawyer and our hero's partner tried to hook him up with a "looker"? And our hero "retained his wits" and stayed loyal to his wife.

What have you done lately?

But the winner in this thread is still the indian dude who first "had sex at 14" which raised the question what the heck does that have anything to do with anything.

Enjoying your .$50 cents per post proceeds? It seems that's all you are good for. :rolleyes:

Just so you know, after that performance, I signed up four clients after they witnessed my performance and they wanted me as their lawyer. So I guess in their eyes, I am not a "crappy" lawyer as your post quoted Troung says so. And money speaks louder than troung's cheap words. :rolleyes:

And if you can't understand the context, don't look at me for guidance.

Oracle
15 Jan 14,, 17:55
I hear sansani is looking for a new anchor

Maybe, GoI should ban all negative news feeds then, eh? Welcome to the era of Citizen Journalism. Catch up if you can.


Here is a story of an Indian woman who got raped and got her revenge afterwards.

Phoolan Devi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoolan_Devi)

Not a pretty story.

Not at all a pretty story. She died with 3 shots to her head and 2 to her body. So, if one lives with the gun, they could die with one.

cdude
15 Jan 14,, 22:03
Enjoying your .$50 cents per post proceeds? It seems that's all you are good for. :rolleyes:

Just so you know, after that performance, I signed up four clients after they witnessed my performance and they wanted me as their lawyer. So I guess in their eyes, I am not a "crappy" lawyer as your post quoted Troung says so. And money speaks louder than troung's cheap words. :rolleyes:

And if you can't understand the context, don't look at me for guidance.

Yeah, you signed up 4 clients after them witnessing your "performance". Do you know there is another Indian dude in this SAME thread who first had sex at 14?

How does your "performance" compare to his accomplishment, UH?

Doktor
15 Jan 14,, 22:14
:puck:

BBC News - Danish woman gang-raped in Indian capital Delhi (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25740355)

cdude
15 Jan 14,, 22:34
:puck:

BBC News - Danish woman gang-raped in Indian capital Delhi (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25740355)

The 51-year-old tourist was attacked by a group of men .....

51 year old...

antimony
16 Jan 14,, 03:13
Really great to see how much this thread has progressed the cause of human dignity :slap:

lemontree
16 Jan 14,, 04:19
:puck:

BBC News - Danish woman gang-raped in Indian capital Delhi (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25740355)

This time again by slum dwelling vagrants :slap:

sated buddha
16 Jan 14,, 06:25
Yeah, you signed up 4 clients after them witnessing your "performance". Do you know there is another Indian dude in this SAME thread who first had sex at 14?

How does your "performance" compare to his accomplishment, UH?

You seem to be having a hard time (pun not intended) digesting a simple statement. Its not so difficult here in India to get laid early. You see, we still have a lot of girls getting born in our 25 million annual birth cohort each year.

Sorry, I should have clarified further. Its not so difficult here in India to get laid early - with the opposite sex.

Mihais
16 Jan 14,, 08:44
:puck:

BBC News - Danish woman gang-raped in Indian capital Delhi (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25740355)

Stupid for going alone,stupid for not being able to read a map.
If you don't know what you're doing,stay at home.

Doktor
16 Jan 14,, 08:57
Stupid for going alone,stupid for not being able to read a map.
If you don't know what you're doing,stay at home.

I wouldn't call her stupid. She never thought this could have happened. If map reading was so easy why you have a course in the military?

Mihais
16 Jan 14,, 09:07
I wouldn't call her stupid. She never thought this could have happened. If map reading was so easy why you have a course in the military?

Stupid for not thinking it can happen.It can happen and it does.That's why you go in with a group and that's why you need to be aware where you are.

Reading the land is a few orders of magnitude more complex than reading the name of a street.And thinking a bit more high tech,you can have a map with a GPS on every smartphone.

sated buddha
16 Jan 14,, 10:00
Mihais is correct. She was both uninformed of the foreign society she was in as well as stupid. The link does not mention the time. Apparently she (a lone woman) went out to ask for directions from 6 guys sitting around aimlessly outside a railway station at 1 o'clock at night. Please guys. I've been to Brazil, where I as a guy have been warned by the locals to take a taxi and not WALK on the roads back to my hotel from a reception at 8 o'clck at night. Not to even go outside the international terminal at Sao Paulo and cross quickly across from the international terminal to the domestic side (on the way to a conference to Iguacu). Lets have some perspective in the discussion please.

cdude
16 Jan 14,, 14:43
You seem to be having a hard time (pun not intended) digesting a simple statement. Its not so difficult here in India to get laid early. You see, we still have a lot of girls getting born in our 25 million annual birth cohort each year.
Sorry, I should have clarified further. Its not so difficult here in India to get laid early - with the opposite sex.

Your story (first had sex at 14 and "steams always on") is much more believable than the other dude who claimed to be such a badass lawyer that not only 4 clients signed him right away, but his boss tried to hook him up with a hooker.

The issue is you represent one data point. Did you ask other Indian wabbers how easy they get laid in India and when they first had sex with the opposite sex? You might be the Don Jon of India.

The fact that your countrymen lined up to gang rape a 51-year-old foreign grandma tells it is probably not easy to get laid in India.

We need statistics not anecdotes.

sated buddha
16 Jan 14,, 15:16
double post

sated buddha
16 Jan 14,, 15:16
Your story (first had sex at 14 and "steams always on") is much more believable than the other dude who claimed to be such a badass lawyer that not only 4 clients signed him right away, but his boss tried to hook him up with a hooker.

The issue is you represent one data point. Did you ask other Indian wabbers how easy they get laid in India and when they first had sex with the opposite sex? You might be the Don Jon of India.

The fact that your countrymen lined up to gang rape a 51-year-old foreign grandma tells it is probably not easy to get laid in India.

We need statistics not anecdotes.

You seem to be an intelligent guy even if some of my compatriots have jibed about you belonging to the x cent army. The discussion needs to be take into context. It was between lemontree and me where he placed some of the causative blame of our rapes on single gender school segregation and I pointed out my disagreement to the same based on just not my own anecdotal example but that of many generations of family and friends who have gone to such schools and not (to my knowledge) become gang rapists. We discussed the issue pretty threadbare with regional statistics, as Indians living in India and aware of the dynamics would. You are neither Indian, nor aware of the statistics, nor coming across as greatly interested in such either. You seem to be instead fixated on my perceivably early sexual investiture and in another compatriot's professional accomplishments. Why would someone purportedly interested in the factual and statistical be so fixated on the anecdotal? Present facts and statistics of your own if you must. That does not make our contribution to the thread as direct stakeholders any less. Because while you have the luxury of making smart comments online, I have daughters and a wife and a sister and cousins and friends and ex girl friends and colleagues who actually live here. For us its something we deal with and are talking about on a national level with a lot more intensity and frankness than what is seen here. Because it is our problem to be dealt with by us. We choose to contribute and discuss it with you as fellow board members. Please do not make a big joke about it.