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Minskaya
13 Dec 13,, 22:06
Indian diplomat held in US on visa fraud charges
December 13, 2013

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01684/vbk-Devyani_Khobra_1684167f.jpg

In a major diplomatic embarrassment for India, its Deputy Consul General here was arrested and handcuffed in public on visa fraud charges before being released on a USD 250,000 bond after pleading not guilty in court, reports PTI.
Devyani Khobragade (39) was taken into custody on a street as she was dropping her daughter to school at 9 am yesterday after the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York, India-born Preet Bharara, announced charges of visa fraud against her. Bharara alleged that Khobragade made false statements in a visa application for an Indian national employed as a baby-sitter and housekeeper at her home in New York. While Khobragade is Deputy Consul General at the Consulate here, she was serving as its acting head at the time of her arrest. She was charged with one count each of visa fraud and making false statements, which carry maximum prison sentences of 10 years and five years respectively.

The Indian Embassy in Washington said in a statement that it had “immediately conveyed its strong concern” to the US Government over the action against Khobragade. “The US side has been urged to resolve the matter with due sensitivity, taking into account the diplomatic status of the officer concerned,” the Embassy said. Khobragade, the mother of two young daughters and a Chevening scholar, was taken into custody by law enforcement officials and produced before US Magistrate Judge Debra Freeman of the Manhattan Federal Court late in the afternoon for an arraignment hearing. Wearing a purple sweater and dress, Khobragade looked pale and stressed during the hearing. The judge read Khobragade her rights and the charges against her. She did not speak during the hearing except to say that she agrees with the terms and conditions of her bail. She was released on a USD 250,000 bond and submitted her diplomatic passport in court. The next hearing was set for January 13.
Source (http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/detailsnew.asp?id=dec1413/at05)

Russians attached to the UN were charged a few weeks ago for bilking Medicaid. Now this. What is going on in the Big Apple?

Blademaster
13 Dec 13,, 22:18
I think somebody in the NYPD missed the note about diplomatic immunity. The Indians are not amused.

Blademaster
13 Dec 13,, 23:48
This is nothing but a scam by the housekeep to obtain victims of domestic violence visa status as one of the conditionse applies, i.e., domestic abuse and claiming lower wage and deprivation as involuntary servitude would be enough to trigger an automatic arrest and granting of visa status.

Firestorm
14 Dec 13,, 02:06
The extent of Diplomatic immunity depends on the category of diplomat in the US. Wikipedia has a table for it:

Diplomatic immunity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic_immunity_in_the_Uni ted_States)

If the woman in question is from one of the categories who are completely immune from prosecution, what the police and the US Attorney did would be illegal. If not, she can be prosecuted.

Bigfella
14 Dec 13,, 02:30
The extent of Diplomatic immunity depends on the category of diplomat in the US. Wikipedia has a table for it:

Diplomatic immunity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic_immunity_in_the_Uni ted_States)

If the woman in question is from one of the categories who are completely immune from prosecution, what the police and the US Attorney did would be illegal. If not, she can be prosecuted.

Looks like she is in the 'Consular' category and is therefore able to be arrested & prosecuted for certain crimes. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 03:30
By the way, the current salary of the deputy consular general given to her by GoI will not even allow her to pay minimum wage salary for a domestic servant. Here it is:

President of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_India)

Officially president of India is the highest paid and was paid $2500 per month in 2009. Even with inflation and other hikes it would not be double in 2013.
Paying minimum wage to the aide would come close to $1500 per month at 40 hrs a week.

If the US wanted her to pay minimum wage as required, she would be penniless!!

Firestorm
14 Dec 13,, 03:40
If the US wanted her to pay minimum wage as required, she would be penniless!!

Then she shouldn't have employed a housemaid in the first place.

Bigfella
14 Dec 13,, 04:12
By the way, the current salary of the deputy consular general given to her by GoI will not even allow her to pay minimum wage salary for a domestic servant. Here it is:

President of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_India)

Officially president of India is the highest paid and was paid $2500 per month in 2009. Even with inflation and other hikes it would not be double in 2013.
Paying minimum wage to the aide would come close to $1500 per month at 40 hrs a week.

If the US wanted her to pay minimum wage as required, she would be penniless!!

So she didn't pay the housekeeper as much as she claimed she did? Does that mean the housekeeper is actually telling the truth & this isn't some sort of scam to get a visa?

Tronic
14 Dec 13,, 04:34
If the US wanted her to pay minimum wage as required, she would be penniless!!

That Poor thing!


Edit: ps. Got to hand it to Preet Bharara though, he's making quite a reputation for himself.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 04:51
So she didn't pay the housekeeper as much as she claimed she did? Does that mean the housekeeper is actually telling the truth & this isn't some sort of scam to get a visa?

What happens if the consul general was paid less than minimum wage, would GoI be on trial?

That servant was considered an employee of GoI because diplomat offices are considered sensitive areas and you would need clearance to work there.

By the way, the court in India has issued an arrest for the housekeeper. Goes to show that there's more to the story than it meets the eye.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 04:52
That Poor thing!


Edit: ps. Got to hand it to Preet Bharara though, he's making quite a reputation for himself.

Yeah and it doesn't go down as well as you might think in some circles.

I think that GoI might do a retaliatory move: arrest a US consular officer and hold him for bail around $1M or something.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 04:56
Then she shouldn't have employed a housemaid in the first place.

Ok so you don't care that a US arrested an Indian diplomat? You are not gonna feel any kind of emotions as Indian sovereignty is violated?

Firestorm
14 Dec 13,, 05:05
Ok so you don't care that a US arrested an Indian diplomat? You are not gonna feel any kind of emotions as Indian sovereignty is violated?
Please refer to this post of mine: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/american-politics-economy/64781-indian-diplomat-arrested-nyc.html#post942496

I already said that if she belonged to the category which has blanket immunity, what they did to her was illegal. But I don't know which category she belongs to.

Secondly, whether or not the US violated India's sovereignty by arresting her is a separate matter from whether or not she actually broke the law. Both can be true at the same time.

Tronic
14 Dec 13,, 05:06
Just to clarify, 'That poor thing!' was sarcasm. :biggrin:

Not being able to afford a housekeeper is no reason to underpay them. Now, I'm not saying that's what she did, but that was the point raised.


Yeah and it doesn't go down as well as you might think in some circles.

At the end of the day, as long as he keeps bagging corrupt thieves I couldn't care less about those circles. ;)


I think that GoI might do a retaliatory move: arrest a US consular officer and hold him for bail around $1M or something.

I'd like to see the reason they come up with for such an arrest. (Not that I believe they will carry out such a 'retaliatory move'.)

Bigfella
14 Dec 13,, 05:19
What happens if the consul general was paid less than minimum wage, would GoI be on trial?

That servant was considered an employee of GoI because diplomat offices are considered sensitive areas and you would need clearance to work there.

By the way, the court in India has issued an arrest for the housekeeper. Goes to show that there's more to the story than it meets the eye.

None of which comes close to answering my question.

In your first post you as much as accused the housekeeper of lying to get a visa. In your second post you said that the Consul can't afford to pay the wage that she claimed she was paying - which would seem to support the allegation that she lied on the visa application (not your intention I'm sure). So now it appears that you have unintentionally exposed the Consul as a liar. I'm just trying to work out which of your positions is correct.

Minskaya
14 Dec 13,, 08:16
The woman, named Sangeeta Richard, alleged that she was to be paid $4,500 per month according to the employment contract for her visa, but was cut down to just $537 per month. Furthermore, she said that she was made to work for 40 hours a week. Ms Khobragade's lawyers support her position, arguing that with her own salary of $ 4,000 a month does not allow her to pay $4,500 to her domestic help. In the wake of criticism by the Indian Embassy, the US has said that Devyani does not enjoy immunity from the jurisdiction of the U.S courts. Moreover, the allegations against her are very serious as her maid was underpaid, overworked and was made to sign a contract to bind her.

With the information available, it seems to me that the charges possibly have merit. Now whether this consular official enjoys diplomatic immunity is a bit trickier. No matter the answer, I do think this could have been handled in a more discreet manner.

Firestorm
14 Dec 13,, 08:20
With the information available, it seems to me that the charges possibly have merit. Now whether this consular official enjoys diplomatic immunity is a bit trickier. No matter the answer, I do think this could have been handled in a more discreet manner.

Preet Bharara needs the eyeballs. I see a gubernatorial campaign in his future. Although even I think this would have been handled more discreetly if the diplomat had been from say China or Russia or a US ally, Bharara's ambitions notwithstanding.

Minskaya
14 Dec 13,, 08:24
Preet Bharara needs the eyeballs. I see a gubernatorial campaign in his future.
It struck me also that Mr. Bharara might have political aspirations. Diplomats from two different nations charged within a month.

Bigfella
14 Dec 13,, 08:48
Preet Bharara needs the eyeballs. I see a gubernatorial campaign in his future. Although even I think this would have been handled more discreetly if the diplomat had been from say China or Russia or a US ally, Bharara's ambitions notwithstanding.

He wasn't especially discreet about charging 49 former Russian diplomats & their families. No cuffs, but plenty of headlines. Russia not best pleased. He does seem to like the spotlight.

cyppok
14 Dec 13,, 10:40
He wasn't especially discreet about charging 49 former Russian diplomats & their families. No cuffs, but plenty of headlines. Russia not best pleased. He does seem to like the spotlight.

idiotic really from long term relations and retaliation perspective.

I can totally see same thing happening in Russia and drugs being found or some other nuance that simply involves money transfers and not paying some mundane fee.

Makes headlines but business wise and relationship wise between countries far more destructive. Lets say you could have signed a trade agreement and instead you have a moron prosecutor getting pictures taken for the local paper. So you sacrificed thousands of jobs for his ego.
(along with a boatload of tax money wasted on prosecution and paying the retaliation cost when it comes)
Visa fraud: US hopes Indian diplomat's arrest won't affect bilateral ties | Firstpost (http://www.firstpost.com/india/visa-fraud-us-hopes-indian-diplomats-arrest-wont-affect-bilateral-ties-1286851.html)

The US has hoped that the major diplomatic row over the arrest of the Indian Deputy Consul General in New York will not affect bilateral ties with India.

The people who brought these charges are really *bright*.

I expect another emerging market perhaps Brazil having a similar experience. Since once these types of things happen they keep on going until the moron in charge is fired along with his underlings and they are given a *no* *no* talk to at least.

Bigfella
14 Dec 13,, 10:46
idiotic really from long term relations and retaliation perspective.

Not only do I not think he cares, being on Vlad's 'people I don't like' list isn't going to lose you many votes in the US.

winton
14 Dec 13,, 12:45
Preet Bharara needs the eyeballs. I see a gubernatorial campaign in his future. Although even I think this would have been handled more discreetly if the diplomat had been from say China or Russia or a US ally, Bharara's ambitions notwithstanding.

The indian govt looks very amateurish in not giving her diplomatic cover to begin with, if what some here are saying is true.

cyppok
14 Dec 13,, 14:42
Not only do I not think he cares, being on Vlad's 'people I don't like' list isn't going to lose you many votes in the US.


Lavrov said the Russian authorities had checked the salaries paid to its staff and “at minimum, a few of them at least, at the time they sought this assistance, were on salaries that allowed them to request such help from the American fund.”

Some accused Russian diplomats had right to Medicaid (http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/159860/some-accused-russian-diplomats-had-right-to-medicaid-lavrov.html)

The point being is I am sure some of them broke the law. The way it was handled was to create maximum PR and negative retaliation.

Live and let live crack down would have been better for business. Just site them and fix it.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 15:06
None of which comes close to answering my question.

In your first post you as much as accused the housekeeper of lying to get a visa. In your second post you said that the Consul can't afford to pay the wage that she claimed she was paying - which would seem to support the allegation that she lied on the visa application (not your intention I'm sure). So now it appears that you have unintentionally exposed the Consul as a liar. I'm just trying to work out which of your positions is correct.

How do you know she lied on the application? What is your proof that she lied on the application. As usual, you jump to legal conclusions without merit. Another rabbit hole for you as you are so fond of saying.

As for the housekeeper, a court has issued an arrest for her in India. So there goes your logic that the consular officer did something wrong. Like I said, there is more than it meets the eye.

Bigfella
14 Dec 13,, 15:44
How do you know she lied on the application? What is your proof that she lied on the application. As usual, you jump to legal conclusions without merit. Another rabbit hole for you as you are so fond of saying.

I don't know that she lied and I didn't say she lied. That is why I used the terms allegation and appears. You made it clear that she couldn't afford to pay the full wage. The US Attorney claims she filled out a visa application saying she would or did. The implication is clear from your own attempt to defend her.

As for 'rabbit holes', the truthfulness of what she put on the visa is actually the key element here. It is what the charges are about. It is not tangential but central. Pretty much the opposite of a 'rabbit hole'.


As for the housekeeper, a court has issued an arrest for her in India. So there goes your logic that the consular officer did something wrong. Like I said, there is more than it meets the eye.

I'll leave the jumping to legal conclusions with no merit to you, you have been doing that from your first post. You have clearly decided who is guilty & who is innocent here. I still don't know.

....well at least your little tanty on the GOP thread makes sense now. Guess that's what I get for pointing out the contradictions in your argument.

anil
14 Dec 13,, 17:37
Envoy gets $4,120 per month, US says pay nanny $4,500 (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-envoy-gets-4120-per-month-us-says-pay-nanny-4500-1934791)

The issue is cultural as a foreign diplomat is considered a guest in another country who should not be humiliated. Handcuffing one(specially, a women) and putting them under police custody is taking it to another level. Women are not sent to warzones in the first place.


The indian govt looks very amateurish in not giving her diplomatic cover to begin with, if what some here are saying is true.
She already has the rights of a diplomat. The US just let india know(in action) what it really thinks about these rights.

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 17:43
The issue is cultural as a foreign diplomat is considered a guest in another country who should not be humiliated.A foreign diplomat should also not abuse the laws of her host country.


She already has the rights of a diplomat. The US just let india know(in action) what it really thinks about these rights.The US is saying that her laws trumps on her home ground.

anil
14 Dec 13,, 17:51
A foreign diplomat should also not abuse the laws of her host country.

The US is saying that her laws trumps on her home ground.
Two can play that "game". But you're talking about persecuting a guest, a game that will set a precedent. How will this look to others?

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 17:53
Two can play that game. But you're talking about persecuting a guest, a game that will set a precedent. How will this look to others?Diplomats have committed real murder and used Diplomatic Immunity to get away with it.

anil
14 Dec 13,, 18:07
Diplomats have committed real murder and used Diplomatic Immunity to get away with it.
You're not seeing the cultural angle I'm trying to put forward.

A diplomat is a guest, not a soldier. If a diplomat commits murder, it is not a guest in the first place.

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 18:23
You're not seeing the cultural angle I'm trying to put forward.Diplomats are a UN legal described position. Culture has nothing to do with it. It is what countries sign that does matter. In this case, this specific diplomat signed a VISA she clearly had no intentions of obeying.


A diplomat is a guest, not a soldier.Military Attaches.


If a diplomat commits murder, it is not a guest in the first place.But Diplomatic Immunity stands.

zraver
14 Dec 13,, 19:25
The issue is cultural as a foreign diplomat is considered a guest in another country who should not be humiliated.

But citizens of that country should be brought over to serve as virtual slaves.


Handcuffing one(specially, a women) and putting them under police custody is taking it to another level.

As opposed to lying to the to trick them in to working full time for free with no way to get justice?


Women are not sent to warzones in the first place.

Not war zones, just sweat shops...


A diplomat is a guest, not a soldier. If a diplomat commits murder, it is not a guest in the first place.

As far as anyone can tell she is not a diplomat but a consular official. BIG difference. Consular officials can be prosecuted by host countries for felony convictions. It really looks like she broke the law and engaged in what amounts to human trafficking for personal gain- domestic slavery. If that is what happened I hope they throw the book at her for trying to enslave an immigrant in the shadow of the Statue of Liberty.

I wonder what caste the servant was from. I bet if she had been a higher caste there would be a lot less blaming the victim going on.



She already has the rights of a diplomat. The US just let india know(in action) what it really thinks about these rights.

No one has offered up any evidence that she was an accredited diplomat or member of the technical staff or family of such diplomats and thus entitled to immunity.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 21:50
A foreign diplomat should also not abuse the laws of her host country.

The US is saying that her laws trumps on her home ground.

And US has conveniently used diplomatic immunity to get around that argument by foreign countries when its diplomats broke the laws. This is the hypocrisy I am talking about. Remember that CIA operative who killed two people in Pakistan? US government were quick to claim diplomatic immunity and were applying pressure at all levels to get him back.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 21:53
Diplomats are a UN legal described position. Culture has nothing to do with it. It is what countries sign that does matter. In this case, this specific diplomat signed a VISA she clearly had no intentions of obeying.


Ok let start documenting the daily activities of the Canadian diplomats in America and India and see what they have been up to and throw the book at them. According to your definition, by signing the entry agreement or credentials they agreed to abide by the laws of the country they work in. So by breaking a law in the country they work in, they signed a paper that they had no intentions of obeying.

A very flimsy argument but that is what your argument boils down to.

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 22:13
So by breaking a law in the country they work in, they signed a paper that they had no intentions of obeying.Not only do I expect it. I demand it. It was drummed into me that when wearing the uniform in a foreign country, you are in fact representing your country ... and anything you do, including a drunken brawl reflects on your country. If you are caught, you will be punished ... even if it's only by the regiment. I expect the same of the civilian foreign office.

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 22:16
And US has conveniently used diplomatic immunity to get around that argument by foreign countries when its diplomats broke the laws. This is the hypocrisy I am talking about. Remember that CIA operative who killed two people in Pakistan? US government were quick to claim diplomatic immunity and were applying pressure at all levels to get him back.As done by all governments. There were incidents with US Marines in Ottawa which now have Secret Service guards instead of Marines. There was a Soviet drunk driver who killed two people in Ottawa, he was called back without seeing Canadian justice ... but saw Soviet justice instead.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 22:25
As done by all governments. There were incidents with US Marines in Ottawa which now have Secret Service guards instead of Marines. There was a Soviet drunk driver who killed two people in Ottawa, he was called back without seeing Canadian justice ... but saw Soviet justice instead.

Did they ever post bonds?

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 22:26
Did they ever post bonds?No.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 22:26
As done by all governments. There were incidents with US Marines in Ottawa which now have Secret Service guards instead of Marines. There was a Soviet drunk driver who killed two people in Ottawa, he was called back without seeing Canadian justice ... but saw Soviet justice instead.

The CIA contractor never saw any kind of justice.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 22:27
No.

Well in this case, the Indian diplomat had to. $250,000. Fine, India should start demanding bonds of $1 million dollars each person and it can't be from an Indian bank but from a US bank or the US treasury.

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 22:33
The CIA contractor never saw any kind of justice.

If you want to see abuse, here

Diplomatic immunity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic_incidents)

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 22:35
Well in this case, the Indian diplomat had to. $250,000. Fine, India should start demanding bonds of $1 million dollars each person and it can't be from an Indian bank but from a US bank or the US treasury.Being a diplomat does not make you immune to your country's laws. If an American diplomat committed a crime in India, India has the right to request extradition.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 22:37
If you want to see abuse, here

Diplomatic immunity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic_incidents)


A couple glaring examples from the link you posted:


In July 2013, Joshua Walde, an American diplomat in Nairobi, Kenya, crashed into a mini-bus killing a father of three, and seriously injuring eight others.[48] United States embassy officials took the diplomat and his family out of Kenya the following day.[48] The other crash victims were left with no financial assistance to pay for hospital bills. The widow of the victim has not been contacted by the driver or embassy officials. The United States government is concerned about the impact the accident could have on bilateral relations with Kenya.[48] Walde was an information management officer at the United States embassy in Nairobi at the time of the crash.[48] Walde gave a statement to police, but was not detained due to his diplomatic immunity.[48] Kenyan police say the case remains under investigation


In the late evening of 10 April 2011, in Islamabad, Pakistan, Patrick Kibuta, an electrical engineer in the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan caused a serious collision with another vehicle, while under the influence of alcohol. According to the police report, Mr. Kibuta, who was driving in the opposing lane, collided with a vehicle driven by a Canadian citizen residing in Islamabad. The victim suffered multiple fractures and required urgent surgery for her injuries. The accident occurred in the F6/1 section of Islamabad, and the Kohsar police impounded Mr. Kibuta's U.N. vehicle on the scene. A lab draw at a nearby hospital confirmed that he had an elevated blood alcohol level. Currently, charges for reckless and drunken driving have been filed against Mr. Kibuta; and an official investigation is pending to determine what, if any, legal recourse may be taken against Mr. Kibuta, who enjoys diplomatic immunity.


On 27 October 1998, in Vladivostok, Russia, Douglas Kent, the American Consul General to Russia, was involved in a car accident that left a young man, Alexander Kashin, disabled. Kent was not prosecuted in a U.S. court. Under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963, diplomatic immunity does not apply to civil actions relating to vehicular accidents. However, on 10 August 2006, a U.S. Court of Appeals ruled that, since he was using his own vehicle for consular purposes, Kent may not be sued civilly

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 22:38
Being a diplomat does not make you immune to your country's laws. If an American diplomat committed a crime in India, India has the right to request extradition.

And from that link you just gave, did America ever grant that request? Not by a long shot. So I don't give much credence to the American argument that her laws trump on her grounds when by her actions, she has proven otherwise as she has undertaken every opportunity to circumvent the laws of the other countries and denied extradition.

American justice is "Do as I say, not do as I do."

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 22:42
And from that link you just gave, did America ever grant that request?Pakistan did not request extradition.

Blademaster
14 Dec 13,, 22:58
Pakistan did not request extradition.

What about Kenya and Russia from the two examples cited above?

Officer of Engineers
14 Dec 13,, 23:17
What about Kenya and Russia from the two examples cited above?In both cases, I did not find extradition requests.

Double Edge
15 Dec 13,, 00:19
So she didn't pay the housekeeper as much as she claimed she did?
No, she lied on the visa application.


Does that mean the housekeeper is actually telling the truth & this isn't some sort of scam to get a visa?
From what my daily said today, there were two agreements, the official & unofficial. The unofficial stated a salary of Rs.30k(~$500)/month. A kings ransom for a domestic by indian standards. Ok so its the US and not India but I still have no idea why $4.5k/month was quoted on the visa application. That is exorbitant for a domestic even in NYC.

Now, there was an agreement between the two.

Where the scam comes in is the domestic breaches confidence and goes against her employer with the intent to stay on in the US.

domestics are a fickle lot, some times they work other times they don't. it can be a hassle. At some point there must have been an altercation and she decided to take her employer to the cleaners.

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 00:26
This is nothing but a scam by the housekeep to obtain victims of domestic violence visa status as one of the conditionse applies, i.e., domestic abuse and claiming lower wage and deprivation as involuntary servitude would be enough to trigger an automatic arrest and granting of visa status.

Are you blaming the victim here or are you blaming the victim here?

Top Indian diplomat, Devyani Khobragade, arrested in New York after 'paying housekeeper $3.31 an hour' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2523014/Top-Indian-diplomat-Devyani-Khobragade-arrested-New-York-paying-housekeeper-3-31-hour.html)

Seriously, what kind of scumbag would pay a housekeeper 600 bucks a month in NEW YORK. The most expensive city in the US. I wonder why she needed to lie about how much she would pay the housekeeper, probably for an H1B visa for the housekeeper.

And it makes no difference how much the diplomat makes. You don't pay people 600 bucks a month in this neighborhood. If you cannot afford a housekeeper in New York like most of the us here, then live like other decent human beings.

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 00:30
Ok so its the US and not India but I still have no idea why $4.5k/month was quoted on the visa application. That is exorbitant for a domestic even in NYC.



My guess is the diplomat applied for an H1B visa for the housekeeper and there is a minimum salary requirement for such visas. Your second statement shows you have not lived in this part of the country. Top nannies demand 6 figure salaries + benefits. Now those are Brazilians. But 4.5K/month is pretty much the ongoing price for a fulltime housekeeper with no benefit.

Source: I live in New York.

Double Edge
15 Dec 13,, 00:35
But citizens of that country should be brought over to serve as virtual slaves.
She would have to consent. Slaves don't have a choice they are brought over against their will and are not paid.


As opposed to lying to the to trick them in to working full time for free with no way to get justice?
She would be full time is without doubt. Nobody was tricked. This consular worker would have wanted a live in.


Not war zones, just sweat shops...
The alternative is not go to the US and work locally for a lot less or as a construction worker or be unemployed. What she was offered as compensation was quite fair. A live in does not pay rent nor food. They have no expenses, most of the money they make goes back home.

Bear in mind, she was not a local or an illegal but someone that was recruited from India and who agreed to the terms of employment.


As far as anyone can tell she is not a diplomat but a consular official. BIG difference. Consular officials can be prosecuted by host countries for felony convictions. It really looks like she broke the law and engaged in what amounts to human trafficking for personal gain- domestic slavery. If that is what happened I hope they throw the book at her for trying to enslave an immigrant in the shadow of the Statue of Liberty.
How many domestics you know of that make $55k/year


I wonder what caste the servant was from. I bet if she had been a higher caste there would be a lot less blaming the victim going on.
The name suggests she's an Anglo. Her English would have been above average, prolly why she was recruited. She would have had to be able to be comfortable ferrying kids etc.

If she was of a higher caste she would not be working as a domestic to begin with.

Double Edge
15 Dec 13,, 00:38
My guess is the diplomat applied for an H1B visa for the housekeeper and there is a minimum salary requirement for such visas. Your second statement shows you have not lived in this part of the country. Top nannies demand 6 figure salaries + benefits. Now those are Brazilians. But 4.5K/month is pretty much the ongoing price for a fulltime housekeeper with no benefit.

Source: I live in New York.
Well, when i lived there my cousins employed a jamaican, she was an illegal, this is what you usually do and it works fine provided nobody squeals. The norm by the other families in the complex too. She'd have made no more than $20k. Now that was quite a few years back, but prices ain't changed that much.

4.5k is not the going price for a domestic especially a foreign one by a long shot.

zraver
15 Dec 13,, 00:45
She would have to consent. Slaves don't have a choice they are brought over against their will and are not paid.

or tricked into working for slave wages... same result


She would be full time is without doubt. Nobody was tricked. This consular worker would have wanted a live in.

She was promised $4500 and got $500 that is shenanigans.


The alternative is not go to the US and work locally for a lot less or as a construction worker or be unemployed. What she was offered as compensation was quite fair. A live in does not pay rent nor food. They have no expenses, most of the money they make goes back home.

She should have been paid what was promised, that is the alternative.


Bear in mind, she was not a local or an illegal but someone that was recruited from India and who agreed to the terms of employment.

agreed to $4500, not $500


How many domestics you know of that make $55k/year

personally? None, but i live in the south not NYC. Regardless, she was contractually promised $4500 a month.


The name suggests she's an Anglo. Her English would have been above average, prolly why she was recruited. She would have had to be able to be comfortable ferrying kids etc.

If she was of a higher caste she would not be working as a domestic to begin with.

^^ Do you see the problem with that statement?

Double Edge
15 Dec 13,, 00:59
or tricked into working for slave wages... same result
There is no trickery invovled. She was well aware of what she was getting into and most likely jumped at the chance.


She was promised $4500 and got $500 that is shenanigans.
As far as what was decalred to the US visa dept, yes.



She should have been paid what was promised, that is the alternative.
She was never promised that amount. That was what was put on the visa form to get the A-3 visa.



agreed to $4500, not $500
She did not agree to that. Most likely was not even aware of that figure. Somebody did some motivated digging and found it.


personally? None, but i live in the south not NYC. Regardless, she was contractually promised $4500 a month.
You can make that argument. But agreements are what is done between two parties. She was not underpaid what she agreed to.


^^ Do you see the problem with that statement?
no, you look for work, you get paid what the market offers.

If you are educated you look for other options. Being educated isn't a monopoly of just higher castes.

I am saying chances are she was of lower caste.

Double Edge
15 Dec 13,, 01:20
The issue is cultural as a foreign diplomat is considered a guest in another country who should not be humiliated. Handcuffing one(specially, a women) and putting them under police custody is taking it to another level.
If you resist arrest then people will do their job. There are no exceptions.

My guess is she was indignant when confronted over this. Those who came to arrest her had the power to take her into custody as they saw fit. The media here plays up the handcuffing bit and the diplomatic part. Is this a diplomatic incident ? if she isn't a diplomat then it isn't.

She took a risk and got bitten. Her career is shot over what ? a domestic.

I suspect some serious differences arose between employer & employee. The employee got in touch with other people who took it further. The employer did not have sufficient leverage to prevent it.

Bigfella
15 Dec 13,, 01:41
No, she lied on the visa application.


At this stage it certainly sounds like that, which is really what this is all about. The rest is just hot air.


From what my daily said today, there were two agreements, the official & unofficial. The unofficial stated a salary of Rs.30k(~$500)/month. A kings ransom for a domestic by indian standards. Ok so its the US and not India but I still have no idea why $4.5k/month was quoted on the visa application. That is exorbitant for a domestic even in NYC.

Now, there was an agreement between the two.

Where the scam comes in is the domestic breaches confidence and goes against her employer with the intent to stay on in the US.

domestics are a fickle lot, some times they work other times they don't. it can be a hassle. At some point there must have been an altercation and she decided to take her employer to the cleaners.


Given the cost of living in NY the domestic was being underpaid. You can't apply Indian wages to somebody living in the US. You would struggle to live on $500 a month in Melbourne. Given the position of the employer she was stupid to lie to the US authorities & then sign another agreement. If all of this is as reported I'm not feeling much sympathy for the employer. She tried to get by underpaying her staff, lied about it & then got caught. She put herself in a vulnerable position in order to save money. She seems like someone who should be smarter than that, especially while representing her nation overseas.

While you didn't mention it, I'm still waiting for evidence that she qualifies for diplomatic immunity.

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 02:16
Coming around to it, most upper and middle class people in India grow up with live-in housekeeper/nannies, and I don't think most people there can imagine a life without them.

This diplomat must have felt the same when she brought over the housekeeper to the US. Afterall, she did not immigrate to the US, but was posted there as part of her government job. A "government job" in India is synonymous with getting additional perks, not loosing the ones you already enjoy. She probably didn't think it to be a big deal to try and skirt inconvenient laws to maintain her standard of living.

As for the nanny herself, it is ridiculous to throw around terms like "slave" and "tricked" for her position. She was getting paid almost 10 times the wages she would've gotten paid as a live-in housekeeper in India. The rates for housekeepers in India are around ₹1000/month, about $20/month. I'm sure it's not much higher in the bigger metros; maybe ₹3000-₹4000/month, $60/month, max. So this maid making $500-$600 (₹30,000+) a month, with food and boarding covered, is a bonanza for the maid, not "slavery" or "trickery".

Unless ofcourse the maid is planning on not making her way back to India... :whome:

Just putting things in perspective..

Officer of Engineers
15 Dec 13,, 02:26
While you didn't mention it, I'm still waiting for evidence that she qualifies for diplomatic immunity.India says yes. The US says no.

India, US fight over Devyani Khobragade's immunity - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-US-fight-over-Devyani-Khobragades-immunity/articleshow/27381613.cms)

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 02:28
Given the cost of living in NY the domestic was being underpaid. You can't apply Indian wages to somebody living in the US. You would struggle to live on $500 a month in Melbourne.

There are folks in the US surviving on maybe double the amount she was being paid but then, also having to pay for food, rent and utilities. I doubt she was paying for any of that, as is the norm with housekeepers in India.

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 02:39
Well, when i lived there my cousins employed a jamaican, she was an illegal, this is what you usually do and it works fine provided nobody squeals. The norm by the other families in the complex too. She'd have made no more than $20k. Now that was quite a few years back, but prices ain't changed that much.

4.5k is not the going price for a domestic especially a foreign one by a long shot.

I have no problem with paying illegals their market price. But this Indian housekeeper was LEGAL here and should not be paid peanuts, especially she should've got whatever promised

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 02:43
I wonder what caste the servant was from. I bet if she had been a higher caste there would be a lot less blaming the victim going on.

Debating the caste divide is really no different than debating the racial divide in the US.

EDIT: I don't know about the caste of the maid, but a quick google shows that the caste of the arrested diplomat is actually "Dalit", i.e., low caste, "untouchable".

So I guess your caste theory falls flat on it's face here, zrav...

Officer of Engineers
15 Dec 13,, 02:53
I have no problem with paying illegals their market price. But this Indian housekeeper was LEGAL here and should not be paid peanuts, especially she should've got whatever promisedRoom and board would have been part of the package.

Khobragade must also get a living allowance. I cannot see her surviving at her lifestyle at $4100 a month.

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 02:53
Debating the caste divide is really no different than debating the racial divide in the US. Pointless.

I agree with you here. Caste has nothing to do with the case here.
(1) The diplomat promised the housekeeper a $45K salary which is probably the minimum allowed salary for H1B (imported labor) visas. Below that, the housekeeper cannot work in the US legally. So it's not that the diplomat lied to the housekeeper. It's that she broke the US labor law or immigration law or both.
(2) Does she qualify for diplomatic immunity?

Don't use the housekeeper made 10 times more than that she made in India. Doesn't matter. The minimum salary for H1B's is to protect US labors.

Double Edge
15 Dec 13,, 03:04
At this stage it certainly sounds like that, which is really what this is all about. The rest is just hot air.
Yep

Once the evidence was provided the authorities had to act.


Given the cost of living in NY the domestic was being underpaid. You can't apply Indian wages to somebody living in the US. You would struggle to live on $500 a month in Melbourne. Given the position of the employer she was stupid to lie to the US authorities & then sign another agreement. If all of this is as reported I'm not feeling much sympathy for the employer. She tried to get by underpaying her staff, lied about it & then got caught. She put herself in a vulnerable position in order to save money. She seems like someone who should be smarter than that, especially while representing her nation overseas.

While you didn't mention it, I'm still waiting for evidence that she qualifies for diplomatic immunity.
You don't cart somebody over from India for a day job.She's a live in, so there are no external costs. Food board everything is covered by the employer, thats the way it works.

The lying part i suspect is the norm. It's only when there is a dispute that it comes out. The surprise is over why or how this happened in the first place.

I'm not able to make the case that she qualifies for diplomatic immunity. i thought that was settled earlier. if she was apprehended then chances are she isn't immune.

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 03:11
You don't cart somebody over from India for a day job.She's a live in, so there are no external costs. Food board everything is covered by the employer, thats the way it works.


No, that's not how it works. To get the housekeeper a working visa (H1B), the diplomat had to promise a certain wage $45K for her. It should've gone through W-2. Nobody cares how much the food/board cares. It has to be on record(w-2).

Otherwise why not pay the maid 0 dollars a month and everything else is food/housing?

I cannot believe people are defending the diplomat here.

Double Edge
15 Dec 13,, 03:19
I have no problem with paying illegals their market price. But this Indian housekeeper was LEGAL here and should not be paid peanuts, especially she should've got whatever promised
She got what she was promised, not what was said in the visa application.

Nobody underpays when you agree to a price. There was an agreement.

Other events have transpired since that have created this issue.


No, that's not how it works. To get the housekeeper a working visa (H1B), the diplomat had to promise a certain wage $45K for her. It should've gone through W-2. Nobody cares how much the food/board cares. It has to be on record(w-2).
its not a H1-B. Its an A-3.


Otherwise why not pay the maid 0 dollars a month and everything else is food/housing?

I cannot believe people are defending the diplomat here.
That could very well be the case too, she gets paid in India. Why else make an agreement in rupees.

This is a domestic dispute that got out when it should not have.

Nothing is going to change as a result of this. People are going to bring over domestics the same way they always have.

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 03:25
She got what she was promised, not what was said in the visa application.


Ok, that's the problem. The employer broke the law. Remember, the law is there to protect American workers. Doesn't matter how much the housekeeper agreed on.

Bigfella
15 Dec 13,, 03:31
Yep

Once the evidence was provided the authorities had to act.


Assuming everything is as reported it seems pretty straightforward.


You don't cart somebody over from India for a day job.She's a live in, so there are no external costs. Food board everything is covered by the employer, thats the way it works.


Even so, $500 a month isn't great money.


The lying part i suspect is the norm. It's only when there is a dispute that it comes out. The surprise is over why or how this happened in the first place.


If you are going to tell fibs on official paperwork you need to keep everybody sweet....or don't tell fibs.


I'm not able to make the case that she qualifies for diplomatic immunity. i thought that was settled earlier. if she was apprehended then chances are she isn't immune.

It was a more general comment, I just tacked it on to that post rather than post twice. I wouldn't necessarily assume that because she was apprehended that she doesn't have immunity, however, it does seem that the scope of immunity does not cover all diplomatic staff.

Double Edge
15 Dec 13,, 03:34
Coming around to it, most upper and middle class people in India grow up with live-in housekeeper/nannies, and I don't think most people there can imagine a life without them.

This diplomat must have felt the same when she brought over the housekeeper to the US. Afterall, she did not immigrate to the US, but was posted there as part of her government job. A "government job" in India is synonymous with getting additional perks, not loosing the ones you already enjoy. She probably didn't think it to be a big deal to try and skirt inconvenient laws to maintain her standard of living.

As for the nanny herself, it is ridiculous to throw around terms like "slave" and "tricked" for her position. She was getting paid almost 10 times the wages she would've gotten paid as a live-in housekeeper in India. The rates for housekeepers in India are around ₹1000/month, about $20/month. I'm sure it's not much higher in the bigger metros; maybe ₹3000-₹4000/month, $60/month, max. So this maid making $500-$600 (₹30,000+) a month, with food and boarding covered, is a bonanza for the maid, not "slavery" or "trickery".
Right


Unless ofcourse the maid is planning on not making her way back to India... :whome:

Just putting things in perspective..
Dispute happens, she does not work, they threaten her, she flees. She speaks english, find people that can help her.

Her only way out is to say she was exploited, abused, tricked whatever. I don't know if she planned on staying back or not, but things might have developed to a point where this was the only option.


Assuming everything is as reported it seems pretty straightforward.


Even so, $500 a month isn't great money.


If you are going to tell fibs on official paperwork you need to keep everybody sweet....or don't tell fibs.


It was a more general comment, I just tacked it on to that post rather than post twice. I wouldn't necessarily assume that because she was apprehended that she doesn't have immunity, however, it does seem that the scope of immunity does not cover all diplomatic staff.
- this is my general understanding.
- what is paid is what is agreed to. It's great money for a maid from India. her work remains the same, she lives in the US and makes many times more for the same work. She would have been mostly confined to the house as the employer is responsible for her. She gets sick he pays the bills etc.
- yes or next time make sure they don't speak english too well.
- i don't think they would have arrested her if they did not have the jurisdiction. Otherwise she has an easy out, wrongful arrest. She's free to go.

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 04:58
(1) The diplomat promised the housekeeper a $45K salary...

You don't know that, and I highly doubt that.


which is probably the minimum allowed salary for H1B (imported labor) visas. Below that, the housekeeper cannot work in the US legally. So it's not that the diplomat lied to the housekeeper. It's that she broke the US labor law or immigration law or both.

Agreed. I don't sympathize with her. She should've known better.


(2) Does she qualify for diplomatic immunity?

Don't know, and it's not really my concern. The blokes in Washington and New Delhi can bang their heads over that issue.


Don't use the housekeeper made 10 times more than that she made in India. Doesn't matter. The minimum salary for H1B's is to protect US labors.

That's all fine. I'm just contending against the ridiculous narrative painting the maid as a victim of 'slavery' and 'trickery', which is clearly not the case.

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 06:18
Dispute happens, she does not work, they threaten her, she flees. She speaks english, find people that can help her.

Her only way out is to say she was exploited, abused, tricked whatever. I don't know if she planned on staying back or not, but things might have developed to a point where this was the only option.

True. If this wasn't pre-planned, then it seems like the housekeeper was in an unhealthy work environment. Treat the workers in your home with respect and you will most likely never get to this point.

I have seen cases with children shouting orders to their housekeepers or talking down to them. A friend's mother shouting at her driver out of the blue to "drive properly" and to "place both your hands on the wheel". (I honestly wished to tell the driver to just pull over, give the finger and walk away with his respect intact). That type of snobby attitude is nauseating and uncalled for.

Anytime I do Skype back home, I will have the housekeepers checking up on me, asking me how I've been, et all. I treat them with the same respect I would a family member, and always make it a point to add the respectful "ji" to the end of my sentences. I get told I'm missed there. :biggrin:

If you have a mutually respectful and a mutually caring relationship, there is no way anyone would humiliate another the way this housekeeper has done to her employer.

anil
15 Dec 13,, 06:24
I wonder what caste the servant was from. I bet if she had been a higher caste there would be a lot less blaming the victim going on.
Khobragades are low caste dalit marathi people from nashik.

You obviously lack the fine points on indian society or read too many leftist literatures on india


Not war zones, just sweat shops...
Good luck to your nations state officials working in india http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/darksmiles/frown.gif

Officer of Engineers
15 Dec 13,, 06:32
Anytime I do Skype back home, I will have the housekeepers checking up on me, asking me how I've been, et all. I treat them with the same respect I would a family member, and always make it a point to add the respectful "ji" to the end of my sentences. I get told I'm missed there. :biggrin:Give me their phone numbers. I'm calling them to tell them that you don't know how to cook and is as thin as a toothpick.

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 06:46
Give me their phone numbers. I'm calling them to tell them that you don't know how to cook and is as thin as a toothpick.


Colonel, not knowing how to cook = higher intake of high carb, greasy takeouts = expanding body mass. They won't believe you. :biggrin: Atleast not until I wrap up my final semester and can get back to hitting the gym. :Dancing-Banana:

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 17:15
That's all fine. I'm just contending against the ridiculous narrative painting the maid as a victim of 'slavery' and 'trickery', which is clearly not the case.

The maid is a victim of human trafficking. There is trickery all right. The diplomat tricked the US immigration officer in her false visa application for the maid.

Nobody cares how business is conducted in India. Don't bring that into the US. Be it a diplomat or a company.

Blademaster
15 Dec 13,, 18:20
The maid is a victim of human trafficking. There is trickery all right. The diplomat tricked the US immigration officer in her false visa application for the maid.

Bullshit! She got paid better and received better benefits than most people would have got. Or there could be no trickery involved just a difference of opinion of how benefits were derived. For example, if maid got free board and food and etc, that could be part of the minimum wage. After all, finding housing and food in NYC is very expensive



Nobody cares how business is conducted in India. Don't bring that into the US. Be it a diplomat or a company.

Funny. Why don't you say the same things for your brethren? After all, don't bring in goods produced by slave labor or forced labor. You are just full of hogwash.

anil
15 Dec 13,, 18:32
Nobody cares how business is conducted in India. Don't bring that into the US. Be it a diplomat or a company.
You are right about that. I think the indian diplomatic community will be applying the same yard stick against US diplomats in india in the future.

After all, indians will have to agree to amercian terms and so will they, a lesson in foreign culture.

Blademaster
15 Dec 13,, 18:38
Ok, that's the problem. The employer broke the law. Remember, the law is there to protect American workers. Doesn't matter how much the housekeeper agreed on.

Guess what? the housemaid wasn't American but Indian and she was to go back to India with full savings. She did not have to pay for any kind of expenses in America. All expenses were paid for.

Blademaster
15 Dec 13,, 18:40
or tricked into working for slave wages... same result

She was promised $4500 and got $500 that is shenanigans.


Not it is not when you have all of your expenses paid off. If i got my housing, food, living expenses, medical expenses, etc paid off and save the money that I earn, I come out way better than 99% of people living on $4500 with no expenses paid off.



She should have been paid what was promised, that is the alternative.

She got paid, in benefits.



agreed to $4500, not $500

Through benefits.

Blademaster
15 Dec 13,, 18:41
True. If this wasn't pre-planned, then it seems like the housekeeper was in an unhealthy work environment. Treat the workers in your home with respect and you will most likely never get to this point.
If you have a mutually respectful and a mutually caring relationship, there is no way anyone would humiliate another the way this housekeeper has done to her employer.

Or it could be another angle... She wanted to get a permanent visa in America and one of the best way to do that is to allege domestic abuse, imagined or real.

Officer of Engineers
15 Dec 13,, 18:43
Guess what? the housemaid wasn't American but Indian and she was to go back to India with full savings. She did not have to pay for any kind of expenses in America. All expenses were paid for.She wasn't working for the GOI but an employer in the US, therefore, subject to American laws.

zraver
15 Dec 13,, 18:45
Not it is not when you have all of your expenses paid off. If i got my housing, food, living expenses, medical expenses, etc paid off and save the money that I earn, I come out way better than 99% of people living on $4500 with no expenses paid off.

the visa application said 4500 in direct compensation not benefits. Room and board is an employer, not employee benefit for domestic workers because it keeps the worker on site and on call.


Guess what? the housemaid wasn't American but Indian and she was to go back to India with full savings. She did not have to pay for any kind of expenses in America. All expenses were paid for.

She was a worker in America and this entitled to the legal protections of our system.

13th Amendment section 1- Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Under US law human trafficking and wage slavery violates the 13th.

zraver
15 Dec 13,, 18:46
She wasn't working for the GOI but an employer in the US, therefore, subject to American laws.

Sir it wouldn't matter, if its not an embassy, slavery including human trafficking would not be permitted regardless.

anil
15 Dec 13,, 18:56
Well, the case has neither been about slavery or human trafficking.

But the american side can repeat that narrative another thousand times and maybe it'll magically become true. http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/smilies/innocent0009.gif Actually that's the only song the americans can sing in their defence

It leaves me wondering, if the americans do not respect diplomatic immunity, will their own workers receive immunity rights from host nations? http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/smilies/confused0071.gif. The americans have disregarded diplomatic rights for a case which is not even complex, it revolves around budget and affordability(a trivial case), how wise was that?

zraver
15 Dec 13,, 19:07
Well, the case has neither been about slavery or human trafficking.

But the american side can repeat that narrative another thousand times and maybe it'll magically become true. http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/smilies/innocent0009.gif Actually that's the only song the americans can sing in their defence

It leaves me wondering, if the americans do not respect diplomatic immunity, will their own workers receive immunity rights from host nations? http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/smilies/confused0071.gif


Anil, please provide any documentation showing how a consular official enjoyed diplomatic immunity of the type up claim she does.

zraver
15 Dec 13,, 19:10
She was a consular official not a diplomat, diplomatic technician or member of a diplomats family. She does not have diplomatic immunity but an immunty limited to minor crimes. Human trafficking and immigration fraud are felonies and serious crimes.

anil
15 Dec 13,, 19:12
zraver, its not a game of words. The american govt just arrested an indian govt official serving on a budget.

Officer of Engineers
15 Dec 13,, 19:17
Again, here are the legal positions stated by both sides. Khobragade does not enjoy 100% diplomatic immunity. How much does she enjoy is now the debate.

India, US fight over Devyani Khobragade's immunity - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-US-fight-over-Devyani-Khobragades-immunity/articleshow/27381613.cms)

anil
15 Dec 13,, 19:26
The american courts can serve her as they want for her crimes but don't expect the indian govt to respect diplomatic rights of US workers in india from this point on. These rights have just been thrown out the window.

Officer of Engineers
15 Dec 13,, 20:32
Good! I expect and demand people representing my country to be on their best behaviour.

Officer of Engineers
15 Dec 13,, 20:51
Anil, let me get this straight. Are you arguing for the right of Indian diplomats to break the host country's laws as they see fit?

Minskaya
15 Dec 13,, 20:52
The american courts can serve her as they want for her crimes but don't expect the indian govt to respect diplomatic rights of US workers in india from this point on. These rights have just been thrown out the window.
It wasn't that long ago the India herself was at the center of a diplomatic immunity tiff...

India’s Supreme Court Extends Restrictions on Italian Ambassador (http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/18/indias-supreme-court-extends-restrictions-on-italian-ambassador/)

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 21:05
Bullshit! She got paid better and received better benefits than most people would have got. Or there could be no trickery involved just a difference of opinion of how benefits were derived. For example, if maid got free board and food and etc, that could be part of the minimum wage. After all, finding housing and food in NYC is very expensive


It aint matter how much better she got paid than her Indian counterparts in India. In NYC with an H1B guest worker visa, pay the required salary you showed to the immigration officer. If the diplomat hired the maid from NYC, it's a very minor offense. But she applied visa for her with false salary statement, that's human trafficking.

And for H1B guest workers, laws require they get paid the amount through W-2. Aint matter how much "perks" you throw on them. This case is exactly the reason why. Otherwise why not pay your maid 5 bucks a month? After all, you could argue the boarding and food are worth more than $4500 before tax.



Funny. Why don't you say the same things for your brethren? After all, don't bring in goods produced by slave labor or forced labor. You are just full of hogwash.

LOL

zraver
15 Dec 13,, 21:29
zraver, its not a game of words. The american govt just arrested an indian govt official serving on a budget.

You're right its not a game of words. Diplomatic Immunity is restricted to a very select class of people via treaty by design. Consular officials are not diplomats.


The american courts can serve her as they want for her crimes but don't expect the indian govt to respect diplomatic rights of US workers in india from this point on. These rights have just been thrown out the window.

India had better respect the rights of credentialed diplomats and protected diplomatic staff and families... This chick though was not a diplomat.

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 21:37
The maid is a victim of human trafficking.

Easy to throw around such terms... Try elaborating.. Forced servitude? Bonded labour? :rolleyes:


There is trickery all right. The diplomat tricked the US immigration officer in her false visa application for the maid.

Zraver was clearly implying that the maid was 'tricked', not the US immigration officers.. That's what I was responding to.


Nobody cares how business is conducted in India. Don't bring that into the US. Be it a diplomat or a company.

Ever see me defending this lady? What exactly is your point in telling me this?

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 22:02
And for H1B guest workers, laws require they get paid the amount through W-2.

It's already been pointed out to you before, but you seem to have missed it. The Visa is an A3 visa, not H1B...

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 22:10
The housekeeper was on an A3 diplomat visa? What?

Visas for Diplomats and Foreign Government Officials (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html)

Yes.

'The A-3 nonimmigrant visa allows the personal attendants, employees or servants of the principal A-1 or A-2 visa holders and the immediate family members of principal A-3 visa holders to enter into the U.S.'

All About A-3 Visa - Your Immigration Questions Answered by VisaPro (http://faq.visapro.com/A3-Visa-FAQ.asp)

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 22:16
Yes.

'The A-3 nonimmigrant visa allows the personal attendants, employees or servants of the principal A-1 or A-2 visa holders and the immediate family members of principal A-3 visa holders to enter into the U.S.'

All About A-3 Visa - Your Immigration Questions Answered by VisaPro (http://faq.visapro.com/A3-Visa-FAQ.asp)

I am not aware of that. So what's the minimum salary for an A-3?

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 22:29
I am not aware of that. So what's the minimum salary for an A-3?

You know the answer to that...

zraver
15 Dec 13,, 22:56
You know the answer to that...

Minimum $7.25 hour in direct compensation not including benefits on the federal level. Regardless the VISa application said $4500 month salary and that is what is owed. If the amount was a lie its human trafficking.

Blademaster
15 Dec 13,, 23:03
She wasn't working for the GOI but an employer in the US, therefore, subject to American laws.
No she is working for GoI. Deputy Consular General is a government position in the GoI.

Blademaster
15 Dec 13,, 23:05
She was a worker in America and this entitled to the legal protections of our system.

13th Amendment section 1- Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Under US law human trafficking and wage slavery violates the 13th.

Bullshit. You are going in extreme and calling it human trafficking and wage slavery. If I had a dime for every time Americans exploit the workers but claim it was not wage slavery or human trafficking, I would be wish. You are just moving the goalposts to serve your purpose.

Blademaster
15 Dec 13,, 23:07
It aint matter how much better she got paid than her Indian counterparts in India. In NYC with an H1B guest worker visa, pay the required salary you showed to the immigration officer. If the diplomat hired the maid from NYC, it's a very minor offense. But she applied visa for her with false salary statement, that's human trafficking.

And for H1B guest workers, laws require they get paid the amount through W-2. Aint matter how much "perks" you throw on them. This case is exactly the reason why. Otherwise why not pay your maid 5 bucks a month? After all, you could argue the boarding and food are worth more than $4500 before tax.



LOL

Ok then why doesn't your government issue certificates that most of its products that it sells to US are not made with slave labor or forced labor? You can't because the certificates would be lies.

cdude
15 Dec 13,, 23:16
Bullshit. You are going in extreme and calling it human trafficking and wage slavery. If I had a dime for every time Americans exploit the workers but claim it was not wage slavery or human trafficking, I would be wish. You are just moving the goalposts to serve your purpose.

Very few Americans did the actual paper work to sneak illegal workers into this country. In this case, the diplomat did a 2 in 1.

False equivalency.

zraver
15 Dec 13,, 23:28
Bullshit. You are going in extreme and calling it human trafficking and wage slavery. If I had a dime for every time Americans exploit the workers but claim it was not wage slavery or human trafficking, I would be wish. You are just moving the goalposts to serve your purpose.

$500 a month on 200 hours of work per month (assuming she only worked 200 hours and no over time) equals $2.50 an hour which is 1/3 the minimum wage. That is wage slavery. Its not a moving goal post.

Tronic
15 Dec 13,, 23:46
Minimum $7.25 hour in direct compensation not including benefits on the federal level. Regardless the VISa application said $4500 month salary and that is what is owed. If the amount was a lie its human trafficking.

Primary intent of the crime to me seems to be fraud, not human trafficking. Unless the maid herself was lied to, coerced, abducted, trafficked, and/or used as bonded labour. I'll admit I don't know the finer workings of US law, but generally speaking, that is what would define human trafficking. You can extend that to this case if the fraudulent visa application filed by the diplomat falls under the same purview, but you are doing so solely in an attempt to drive the negative connotations of the word to steer your argument. In the same fashion you had done earlier with the allegations of slavery and caste discrimination.

In effect, I'm seeing you play the prosecutor and Blademaster playing the defendant.

zraver
16 Dec 13,, 00:11
Lied to, coerced, abducted, trafficked, and/or used as bonded labour is not required. All that is required is as follows

22 USC § 7102. (9) B

(B) the recruitment, harboring, transportation, provision, or obtaining of a person for labor or services, through the use of force, fraud, or coercion for the purpose of subjection to involuntary servitude, peonage, debt bondage, or slavery.

Slavery includes forced labor which si defined as

18 U.S.C. § 1589

Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--(1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;

(2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or

(3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,

(zraver- only one of those three requirements has to be met)

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 00:14
No she is working for GoI. Deputy Consular General is a government position in the GoI.Sorry, Hitesh, no go. The house keeper was being paid out of the DCG's pocket, not the GOI budget. It's a private employ, not a government position.

Tronic
16 Dec 13,, 00:52
Lied to, coerced, abducted, trafficked, and/or used as bonded labour is not required. All that is required is as follows

22 USC § 7102. (9) B

(B) the recruitment, harboring, transportation, provision, or obtaining of a person for labor or services, through the use of force, fraud, or coercion for the purpose of subjection to involuntary servitude, peonage, debt bondage, or slavery.

The highlighted red is the bone of contention.

Was the housekeeper subjected to 'involuntary servitude, peonage, debt bondage, or slavery'?



Slavery includes forced labor which si defined as

18 U.S.C. § 1589

Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--(1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;

(2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or

(3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,

(zraver- only one of those three requirements has to be met)

I suppose you are pointing out to the third condition, but doing some digging myself;


(c) In this section:
(1) The term "abuse or threatened abuse of law or legal
process" means the use or threatened use of a law or legal
process, whether administrative, civil, or criminal, in any
manner or for any purpose for which the law was not designed, in
order to exert pressure on another person to cause that person to
take some action or refrain from taking some action.


Was that the issue here? It doesn't seem to be the case..

So again, loosely throwing around terms like slavery and human trafficking seems to be nothing short of a free for all bash-fest. I have no sympathies with the lady; infact, neither lady. They both benefited breaking the law. To pretend one exploited the other is a joke. Reality is, they both circumvented US law. The housekeeper was just smart enough to play her cards right.

Blademaster
16 Dec 13,, 02:29
You're right its not a game of words. Diplomatic Immunity is restricted to a very select class of people via treaty by design. Consular officials are not diplomats.



India had better respect the rights of credentialed diplomats and protected diplomatic staff and families... This chick though was not a diplomat.

India will treat the same way the US has been treating diplomats from other countries and more.

Blademaster
16 Dec 13,, 02:30
Sorry, Hitesh, no go. The house keeper was being paid out of the DCG's pocket, not the GOI budget. It's a private employ, not a government position.

But the housekeeper is required to undergo security clearance and sign several agreements with GoI. That makes her a quasi employee of the GoI.

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 02:37
Again, no go. Even a top secret clearance does not make you an employee of the government.

lemontree
16 Dec 13,, 05:25
$500 a month on 200 hours of work per month (assuming she only worked 200 hours and no over time) equals $2.50 an hour which is 1/3 the minimum wage. That is wage slavery. Its not a moving goal post.

Granted that the Indian diplomat has committed an error of judgement and her actions have breached US laws. But does that allow the maid servant to get US citizenship?

The right action would be to declare the Indian diplomat "persona non grata" and send her home. Deport the maid also.
But if the US put her in prison, then things will become messy.

Double Edge
16 Dec 13,, 08:41
Again, here are the legal positions stated by both sides. Khobragade does not enjoy 100% diplomatic immunity. How much does she enjoy is now the debate.

India, US fight over Devyani Khobragade's immunity - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-US-fight-over-Devyani-Khobragades-immunity/articleshow/27381613.cms)
Trying to look for outs in this case, here's a couple..


Khobragade's lawyer is insisting on consular immunity saying that the crime may not have been grave. Khobragade was released within two hours of her arrest which, according to legal experts, has rendered the grave crime argument put forward by US authorities hollow. Under the VCCR, a consular officer can be arrested only in the case of a "grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority". Indian government too believes that this may not have been a case of grave crime.

Second, is it as easy as paying up what was declared and then closing the case. Not quite.


The US has responded to summoning of its ambassador Nancy Powell here by declaring that she had no immunity under Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. Like what happened earlier with another diplomat Neena Malhotra, who faced similar charges, the Indian government has no option but to make itself a party in the case as it was responsible for reimbursement of Khobragade's babysitter Sangeeta Richard's salary and other expenses. Khobragade is accused of not paying Richard $ 4,500 per month as required under the US laws. However, if all other perks Richard enjoyed were to be monetized, the salary discrepancy wouldn't seem as glaring.

Here is a precedent (http://www.searchindia.com/2012/02/23/poor-maid-in-india-now-rich-maid-in-america-after-winning-case-against-indian-diplomat/) from an earlier case.

The maid in that case was awared $1.5m damges. It's unclear how much she actually received (if anything) as Malhotra left the country shortly after.

Pattern is to shift US-India into employer-employee and leave it at that.

Tronic
16 Dec 13,, 10:32
Here is a precedent (http://www.searchindia.com/2012/02/23/poor-maid-in-india-now-rich-maid-in-america-after-winning-case-against-indian-diplomat/) from an earlier case.

The maid in that case was awared $1.5m damges. It's unclear how much she actually received (if anything) as Malhotra left the country shortly after.

Pattern is to shift US-India into employer-employee and leave it at that.

That's a bit unsettling.. A quick google shows that this is the third case against officials at the Indian NY Consulate in the last 3 years. That's one case every year. NYC Indian Consulate Has a Serious Maid in India Problem (http://www.searchindia.com/2013/12/12/nyc-indian-consulates-maid-in-india-problem/)

Maybe the MEA should do their job rather than blame the US authorities for doing theirs... You'd think they'd smarten up.

At this rate, if Kobragade gets off easy, it may well be another Consulate official and another maid next year. :rolleyes:

Bigfella
16 Dec 13,, 10:41
That's a bit unsettling.. A quick google shows that this is the third case against officials at the Indian NY Consulate in the last 3 years. That's one case every year. NYC Indian Consulate Has a Serious Maid in India Problem (http://www.searchindia.com/2013/12/12/nyc-indian-consulates-maid-in-india-problem/)

Maybe the MEA should do their job rather than blame the US authorities for doing theirs... You'd think they'd smarten up.

At this rate, if Kobragade gets off easy, it may well be another Consulate official and another maid next year. :rolleyes:

Wait for someone to claim a 'vendetta' or somesuch. Usually doesn't take long.

You are right. Given that there have been legal issues the ministry responsible really needs to make sure that all its officials are beyond reproach when it comes to the hiring of domestic staff. That means filling out all the paperwork properly & not doing anything that might bring you to the attention of the authorities. Oh dear!

Double Edge
16 Dec 13,, 11:03
That's a bit unsettling.. A quick google shows that this is the third case against officials at the Indian NY Consulate in the last 3 years. That's one case every year. NYC Indian Consulate Has a Serious Maid in India Problem (http://www.searchindia.com/2013/12/12/nyc-indian-consulates-maid-in-india-problem/)

Maybe the MEA should do their job rather than blame the US authorities for doing theirs... You'd think they'd smarten up.
One problem a year versus how many other maids with no problem. India isn't the only country bringing in maids to live with their diplomatic staff in NYC.

Wonder how the fallout happened, they would have picked some one they knew, speaking English would have been useful, she probably could cook what they liked as well. All in all it should not have ended up this way.


At this rate, if Kobragade gets off easy, it may well be another Consulate official and another maid next year. :rolleyes:
Yes, because there isn't going to be any change. People should be more mindful how they manage their maids that's all. No complaint, no issue.

I don't understand why $4.5k/month was mentioned on the visa application. Possibly to avoid unnecessary questions at the us embassy.

If lodging ie no commuting expenses, food and other miscellaneous expenses were taken into account it would amount to much more than $500/month in indirect benefits.

Firestorm
16 Dec 13,, 11:13
Boy this thread moved fast...


Minimum $7.25 hour in direct compensation not including benefits on the federal level. Regardless the VISa application said $4500 month salary and that is what is owed. If the amount was a lie its human trafficking.

I don't get this. If she was working 40 hours a week, that would come out to $1450 for five weeks. I can understand a thousand or so more but what could have possessed the consular staff to put in $4500 a month on the Visa application?

Regardless, terming this "human trafficking" and "slavery" is just hyperbole. This is Visa fraud and nothing else. Some people seem to be trying to be overly dramatic.

Secondly, the fatcats in the Indian foreign service need to learn how to do their own housework. They have 9 to 5 jobs like everyone else. It wouldn't hurt to do the dishes, vacuum the floor and clean up after the kids when they get home like everyone else does. They are acting like spoilt brats going to the extent of importing housekeepers from India.

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 12:05
A quick google on Sangeeta Richard showed that she was gone as of June and it was only after India filed charges and request extradition that the US found her and got the story.

Kobragade did not file a Missing Person with the NYPD. She used her own links in India to get her maid deported ... and got bitten in the ass.

This is the type of person the pro-Kobragade is defending?

I would have thrown the book at her.

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 12:16
Or it could be another angle... She wanted to get a permanent visa in America and one of the best way to do that is to allege domestic abuse, imagined or real.Charges were filed against Richard, the maid, in India, who then requested extradition from the US. There were no NYPD missing person report even though she was missing since June. It was only after the US found her that the maid spill her story. Sounds like reactive rather than pro-active at getting permanent residency.

lemontree
16 Dec 13,, 12:17
Sir, all I'm saying is deport both the defaulting diplomat and the maid. Both are at fault, one procedural and the other opportunity fraud.

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 12:24
Sir, all I'm saying is deport both the defaulting diplomat and the maid. Both are at fault, one procedural and the other opportunity fraud.The maid, unfortunately, got an angle to stay in the US. Persecution at home and since the DGC filed papers against her in India which was the start of the US looking for the maid and no Missing Person was filed in the US, that angle initially looks pretty good.

I want her to go back to India and face her accuser but the weight of the foreign office against a maid doesn't sound too good.

Firestorm
16 Dec 13,, 12:31
The maid, unfortunately, got an angle to stay in the US. Persecution at home and since the DGC filed papers against her in India which was the start of the US looking for the maid and no Missing Person was filed in the US, that angle initially looks pretty good.

Persecution? If she was unhappy with her pay and treatment by Khobragade, she could have asked to return to India. Nobody was forcing her to stay there. Instead, she goes and does a vanishing act despite the fact that she had been brought over on a diplomatic A3 visa. The foreign service is well within its rights to prosecute her. Any allegations of "persecution" look very much like a tactic to avoid that.

In fact, didn't she technically commit visa fraud herself, when she disappeared without informing her employer whilst on a temporary work visa?

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 12:36
And where would she get the money for a plane ticket?The DCG is a diplomat. She's responsible for the people she brings over. A NYPD report should have been filed even if it was a case of really seeking asylum.

My soldier is missing. I make no effort to discover his where abouts to see if he was hurt or injured. Instead I filed charges expecting the enemy to find him for me. I should be court-martial for dereliction of duty.

Firestorm
16 Dec 13,, 12:38
BTW zraver just in case you issed Tronic's and Anil's posts, I'll remind you again that your baseless allegations of casteism have blown up in your face since the Diplomat herself has been revealed to be from the so-called "untouchable" community.

Firestorm
16 Dec 13,, 12:41
And where would she get the money for a plane ticket?The DCG is a diplomat. She's responsible for the people she brings over. A NYPD report should have been filed even if it was a case of really seeking asylum.

If she refuses to work, and tells the consulate she wants to return, they would have sent her back. Why would they pay to keep a non-working employee in the US? There is no evidence she did that. She just ran away and lived as an illegal in the US, and when caught, she complains of persecution. It is obvious she is trying to seize the opportunity to get a permanent US visa.

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 12:41
In fact, didn't she technically commit visa fraud herself, when she disappeared without informing her employer whilst on a temporary work visa?General question since I don't have the specifics on Richards. How much schooling for such a maid have?

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 12:43
If she refuses to work, and tells the consulate she wants to return, they would have sent her back. Why would they pay to keep a non-working employee in the US? There is no evidence she did that. She just ran away and lived as an illegal in the US.The Foreign Office was not paying her. The Consulate was not going to buy a plane ticket for her. She was on private employ. Khobragade was paying her. If she did run away, all the more reason for Khobragade to file an NYPD report.

sated buddha
16 Dec 13,, 12:59
General question since I don't have the specifics on Richards. How much schooling for such a maid have?

The younger maids are pretty educated. And do not work full time at one home. We have a girl who comes in the morning and leaves by 11, and then works at a beauty parlor. Then she comes back in the evening after the parlor to do the dishes and take in the clothes from outside after they have dried. The next morning she will iron those clothes, and make the tiffin for the kids and help get them ready. She speaks fluent English and dresses like most girls her age would i.e jeans and T-shirts or blouse tops.

There is an older ajji who is the more traditional full time maid. She helps with the cooking and cleaning mainly. She cannot speak English, she must have max studied till the 3rd or 4th grade, but she cooks really nice food and eats what we eat at home for the meals and is like a nanny for the kids when they come home from school.

Firestorm
16 Dec 13,, 13:01
The Foreign Office was not paying her. The Consulate was not going to buy a plane ticket for her. She was on private employ. Khobragade was paying her. If she did run away, all the more reason for Khobragade to file an NYPD report.
The A-3 Visa requirements stipulate that the personal employee be provided transportation to and from the US. Check here: Visas for Diplomats and Foreign Government Officials (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html#personal)

Khobragade was obligated to provide her with a ticket back to India, if she asked to leave.


Incidentally, that link also states this:

If the employer does not carry the diplomatic rank of Minister or higher or hold a position equivalent to Minister or higher, the employer must demonstrate that he or she will have sufficient funds to provide a fair wage and working conditions, as reflected in the contract.

Wonder how this got overlooked when the Visa was granted. She clearly did not have the means to pay her what was written in the contract.

zraver
16 Dec 13,, 14:27
Charges were filed against Richard, the maid, in India, who then requested extradition from the US. There were no NYPD missing person report even though she was missing since June. It was only after the US found her that the maid spill her story. Sounds like reactive rather than pro-active at getting permanent residency.

Its also the missing piece to make it a trafficking case- threatened abuse of the victims home country legal system.

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 14:50
Khobragade was obligated to provide her with a ticket back to India, if she asked to leave.Like everything else discovered, Khobragade did not live up to her obligations.

Firestorm
16 Dec 13,, 14:57
Like everything else discovered, Khobragade did not live up to her obligations.
Huh? Richard ran away. How was Khobragade supposed to send her back when she didn't even know where she was? Now Khobragade can be faulted for going to Indian authorities for help instead of the NYPD, but that doesn't absolve Richard of the blame. It is easy to see why Khobragade did that as well. She was scared her original sin of lying on the Visa application would be discovered if she went to the NYPD.

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 15:05
Huh? Richard ran away. How was Khobragade supposed to send her back when she didn't even know where she was? Now Khobragade can be faulted for going to Indian authorities for help instead of the NYPD,Oh she knew where Richards was. She knew Richards was not hurt nor missing. She knew enough to bring charges and told Indian courts where to find her and in turn where the NYPD to find Richards. This is not the action of someone who does not know what conditions Richard was in.

Again, first thing I would do is to try to find out if my people was hurt or not. I will file a an Away Without Leave report but charges would not be forthcoming until I can find out why.

As for Richards, she would be in contact with illegals who would tell her that contact with the police is deportation. If India can show that she will get a fair trial, then the US is obligated to return her.

Firestorm
16 Dec 13,, 15:24
Oh she knew where Richards was. She knew Richards was not hurt nor missing. She knew enough to bring charges and told Indian courts where to find her and in turn where the NYPD to find Richards. This is not the action of someone who does not know what conditions Richard was in.

Again, first thing I would do is to try to find out if my people was hurt or not. I will file a an Away Without Leave report but charges would not be forthcoming until I can find out why.

According to what Khobragade's father told the press, Richard ran away sometime in June after repeatedly demanding more money. So they didn't need to find out why. And if they knew exactly where she was, it wouldn't have taken this long to find her. From what I've gathered, the sequence of events is something like this:

1. Khobragade and Richard sign an official contract which mentions a higher salary. But that is just for getting the visa. Unofficially, they verbally agree on a much lower salary. This is undoubtedly a visa fraud on part of Khobragade.

2. After being in the US for a while, Richard starts demanding more money. She is refused, at which point she runs away after taking $200 and Khobragade's husband's cellphone from their house.

3. Afraid that going directly to the NYPD would complicate matters because of her being a diplomat and the previous visa fraud, Khobragade turns to the Indian authorities and charges are filed in India against Richard for absconding while on a diplomatic visa. They inturn ask the US authorities to find and extradite her.
[/quote]


If India can show that she will get a fair trial, then the US is obligated to return her.
And how is India supposed to show that? More importantly, "who" in India can show that? The government does not control the judiciary and I don't think the judiciary can directly deal with foreign governments. The judiciary will insist that all the trials they do are "fair". How are they supposed to prove that anyway?

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 15:29
And how is India supposed to show that? More importantly, "who" in India can show that? The government does not control the judiciary and I don't think the judiciary can directly deal with foreign governments. The judiciary will insist that all the trials they do are "fair". How are they supposed to prove that anyway?The same as in all extradition requests. Present the evidence gathered to meet the burden of proof criteria. List the charges and if upon conviction, show that the punishment is fitting to the crime and not over bearing, ie she will not get her hands chopped off nor serve a 50 year sentence.

Blademaster
16 Dec 13,, 17:29
All I can say is that US are big suckers, being taken for a ride when maids come over and claim domestic abuse or blah blah.

I look forward to the day that India starts returning the favor to America.

Oracle
16 Dec 13,, 18:23
She needs a jail time. Using and abusing................... needs a hardcore jailtime.

Oracle
16 Dec 13,, 18:24
All I can say is that US are big suckers, being taken for a ride when maids come over and claim domestic abuse or blah blah.

I look forward to the day that India starts returning the favor to America.

Eggjactly!!!!!

US are to blame. Might as well lop some nukes in NYC.

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 18:44
All I can say is that US are big suckers, being taken for a ride when maids come over and claim domestic abuse or blah blah.

I look forward to the day that India starts returning the favor to America.My God, Hitesh, are you serious? The victims are at fault? If it ever were the case, I certainly would hope that the Indian legal system do their due diligence instead of being dismissive.

Firestorm
16 Dec 13,, 18:53
The same as in all extradition requests. Present the evidence gathered to meet the burden of proof criteria. List the charges and if upon conviction, show that the punishment is fitting to the crime and not over bearing, ie she will not get her hands chopped off nor serve a 50 year sentence.

That shouldn't be difficult. As for the punishment, if she's convicted, it will be whatever the Indian Penal Code prescribes for the crime. Nothing more, nothing less, and I can be sure it does not involve chopping off hands or life sentences.

Firestorm
16 Dec 13,, 19:50
Stripped, searched alongwith sex workers and drug addicts: Khobragade's ordeal
(http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-diplomat-strip-searched-meira-kumar-refuses-to-meet-us-mps/1/331543.html)

Disgusting. Gross violations of protocol here. If a US diplomat had been strip-searched in India, there would have been B-52's over Delhi by now...

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 20:04
Stripped, searched alongwith sex workers and drug addicts: Khobragade's ordeal
(http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-diplomat-strip-searched-meira-kumar-refuses-to-meet-us-mps/1/331543.html)

Disgusting. Gross violations of protocol here. If a US diplomat had been strip-searched in India, there would have been B-52's over Delhi by now...Now this is over the top. Orders from higher up to humiliate her. This sounds like a vendetta.

zraver
16 Dec 13,, 22:01
Now this is over the top. Orders from higher up to humiliate her. This sounds like a vendetta.

its only over the top if its outside the norm and the guards knew who she was. If protocol is to strip search everyone to prevent the smuggling of contraband into the system its legit.

Doktor
16 Dec 13,, 22:14
:eek:

8 pages? Busy weekend I see.

Blademaster
16 Dec 13,, 23:19
My God, Hitesh, are you serious? The victims are at fault? If it ever were the case, I certainly would hope that the Indian legal system do their due diligence instead of being dismissive.

How did the victim exactly suffer? She tried to blackmail the diplomat!

Officer of Engineers
16 Dec 13,, 23:47
How did the victim exactly suffer? She tried to blackmail the diplomat!By asking for her legal rights?

zraver
17 Dec 13,, 00:15
How did the victim exactly suffer? She tried to blackmail the diplomat!


Dude... why are you defending her and not the poor servant she abused....

Bigfella
17 Dec 13,, 01:10
All I can say is that US are big suckers, being taken for a ride when maids come over and claim domestic abuse or blah blah.

I look forward to the day that India starts returning the favor to America.

Did the diplomat lie on the visa application? Surely that is the key issue here.

zraver
17 Dec 13,, 01:15
I wonder how Hitesh feels about the situation for Indian workers and domestic servansa in Dubai where the only functional difference is the nationality of the abuser?

Tronic
17 Dec 13,, 01:52
You know what? I sincerely hope this lady gets prosecuted! She deliberately lied and broke US law. It appears what she did was more than just "poor judgement". Just a quick search on google on her past:


Diplomat in visa row owns flat in scam-tainted Adarsh Society - Rediff.com India News (http://www.rediff.com/news/report/diplomat-in-visa-row-owns-flat-in-scam-tainted-adarsh-society/20131213.htm)

Devyani Khobragade, was also involved in the Adarsh Housing Scam and admitted to the investigators of the case that she owned 2 flats in the buildings illegally constructed on government land. Devyani Khobragade, who is the daughter of the former BEST GM Uttam Khobragade, admitted that she had acquired a flat in the Meera Cooperative Society in Oshiwara, built on government land, when her father was the CEO and Vice President of MHADA (Maharashtra Housing & Area Development Authority). She also said her father had signed the application on her behalf when she had applied for the flat in the Adarsh Housing Society, as she was posted in Germany at the time.
Devyani Khobragade (http://www.mapsofindia.com/my-india/society/devyani-khobragade-in-the-news-for-the-wrong-reasons)


Background into that scam:

"In 2002, a request was made to the office of the Chief Minister to allot land for the construction of a housing complex for "the welfare of serving and retired personnel of the Defence Services".

It so happened that politicians from different political parties, bureaucrats and other officials colluded to bend several rules and perpetrate various acts of omission and commission in order to have the building constructed and then got themselves allotted flats in this premier property at artificially lowered prices."
Worst political scandals of independent India (http://www.indiatvnews.com/politics/national/worst-political-scandals-of-independent-india-7515.html?page=11)


So clearly misusing power, circumventing and bending laws for personal gain is nothing new for her. She is used to it, and used to getting away scot free. I sincerely hope the US brings her to the book! Give her a taste of judicial justice.

zraver
17 Dec 13,, 01:56
She is obviously suffering from Affluenza!

Tronic
17 Dec 13,, 02:04
She is obviously suffering from Affluenza!

A fitting treatment for this "disorder" should be a trip to a labour camp..

Gun Grape
17 Dec 13,, 02:46
Stripped, searched alongwith sex workers and drug addicts: Khobragade's ordeal
(http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-diplomat-strip-searched-meira-kumar-refuses-to-meet-us-mps/1/331543.html)

Disgusting. Gross violations of protocol here. If a US diplomat had been strip-searched in India, there would have been B-52's over Delhi by now...

It would be nice if we could get some verification of this story

zraver
17 Dec 13,, 02:49
It would be nice if we could get some verification of this story

Depending on how fast the system was, while in booking she would be stripped, searched, showered and put into a jail uniform. Nothing out of the ordinary.

lemontree
17 Dec 13,, 05:25
General question since I don't have the specifics on Richards. How much schooling for such a maid have?

Sir, depends on the region from which the maid hails. In this case I am assuming that the maid is from my state (Maharashtra). Here primary education for girls is free (paid for by the state). So she would have completed 10+2 and may or may not be a college graduate.

With a sur name of Richard - would indicate that she is belongs to the Protestant or Methodist church.

lemontree
17 Dec 13,, 05:31
This whole issue is starting to stink now....

Diplomat Devyani strip-searched, India snubs US team - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Diplomat-Devyani-strip-searched-India-snubs-US-team/articleshow/27488890.cms)

I think all embassies and consulates should brief their staff on the law concerning maids and domestic help in the host country. They should also stop permitting getting domestic help from the home country unless all legalities are addressed.

God!!.... women and and their maids will bring two nations into the boxing ring!:slap:

bolo121
17 Dec 13,, 05:54
Obviously a typical corrupt GoI leech. It goes without saying that to swing a plum posting like New York she must have some serious connections and black money power.
Eating our tax money and enjoying Manhattan.

In her arrogance she forgot that outside India she cant ignore laws that are inconvenient to her.
Throw the book at her.

Bigfella
17 Dec 13,, 06:32
Well, this thread is certainly dividing opinion! :biggrin:

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 06:47
You know what? I sincerely hope this lady gets prosecuted! She deliberately lied and broke US law. It appears what she did was more than just "poor judgement". Just a quick search on google on her past:


Diplomat in visa row owns flat in scam-tainted Adarsh Society - Rediff.com India News (http://www.rediff.com/news/report/diplomat-in-visa-row-owns-flat-in-scam-tainted-adarsh-society/20131213.htm)



Background into that scam:



So clearly misusing power, circumventing and bending laws for personal gain is nothing new for her. She is used to it, and used to getting away scot free. I sincerely hope the US brings her to the book! Give her a taste of judicial justice.

So you would rather that India surrender her sovereignity and let US trample all over her?

She doesn't even own the land. Her father did. Are you now transferring the alleged sins of the father to the daughter.

Let me ask you something. Do you despise wealthy people? People who have maids?

Bigfella
17 Dec 13,, 06:49
:pop: MkII

Tronic
17 Dec 13,, 07:26
So you would rather that India surrender her sovereignity and let US trample all over her?

An Indian government official has no sovereign right to break another country's law on that territory, no matter how habituated they are at breaking laws back home.


She doesn't even own the land. Her father did. Are you now transferring the alleged sins of the father to the daughter.

This tells another story:

"Devyani applied for a flat in Adarsh in 2004. She also acquired an apartment in Meera Cooperative Society in Oshiwara, which was constructed on land given by Mhada. On Friday, Devyani insisted that the Oshiwara flat's construction was completed in 2005; therefore, she could have been said to become an owner only then. Since she sold the Oshiwara flat in 2008 and was allotted the Adarsh flat in 2009, "at no point of time I owned two flats in Mumbai," claimed Devyani, who is currently a director in the external affairs ministry."
.......
"On cross-examination, however, she admitted that she still owned a flat in Meera society. "I am not aware of the 1999 government resolution that if I am holding a flat in a cooperative housing society, I would not be entitled to another flat in a different housing society," Devyani said, while confessing that the info she gave at the time of applying for Adarsh that she did not own any flat in Mumbai was incorrect."

Adarsh member blames Gidwani for ?incorrect info? - Times Of India (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-07-07/mumbai/32577475_1_colaba-society-devyani-khobragade-member-p-subrahmanyam)

In short, a lying scumbag.

She owned the Adarsh flat, not her father. Her father just abused his position to get her prime estate property at dirt cheap rates.


Let me ask you something. Do you despise wealthy people? People who have maids?

No, just thieves.

She certainly doesn't come from an affluent family background. It is evident that her father used his position to allot her prime property, meant for war veterans and defence services, at dirt rate prices so she could sell it later at much higher prime rates. And this we know only because the Adarsh scam became national news. I wonder what other dubious means they used to acquire their black wealth. A family of lying, habituated corrupt thieves.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 07:30
Dude... why are you defending her and not the poor servant she abused....

She was not abused. She got way better benefits than she would have gotten in India and she suffered no physical abuse no limitation on freedom. She started suffering limitations of freedom when she started blackmailing and started demanding more money. After that she was let go.


I wonder how Hitesh feels about the situation for Indian workers and domestic servansa in Dubai where the only functional difference is the nationality of the abuser?

Fine you want my opinion. Those workers not suffering from physical abuse or no limitations on freedom got way better benefits than they got in India. It is different when the owners start treating them like crap and beating them up. There is no allegation of such thing in Khobarde's case. The police did not even file a domestic abuse case. Only visa fraud. And you are extrapolating all the way to the deep end like you did back in the germany prison camp guards and gave graphic descriptions of guilt and such. Sorry you are way out of the box on this one.

Where is the abuse being alleged other than being required to be paid minimum wage? The maid got a better deal because she got free benefits which outweighed the minimum wage and you are completely ignoring that fact. Do you know what minimum wage is for? the purpose of the minimum wage? It is to allow people with very limited means to provide adequate lodging and food on the table and eke out a passable living. With the benefits she got, the purpose of the minimum wage has already been served.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 07:43
Hitesh, you are arguing for an Indian bureaucrat to deny American rights to a person on American soil. You are arguing for an Indian to break American law on American soil as she sees fit, even when she does not have the authority, especially when she does not have the authority to do so.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 08:13
Hitesh, you are arguing for an Indian bureaucrat to deny American rights to a person on American soil. You are arguing for an Indian to break American law on American soil as she sees fit, even when she does not have the authority, especially when she does not have the authority to do so.

Fine but did such actions warrant such treatment by the police. It would be one thing for the Americans to say to Indians that she is non persona grata and demand she leave the country immediately but to arrest her, parade her, and strip search her while violating every diplomatic norm?

Fine, the lesson I am taking from this is that Americans can expect no different when they come to India. I hope to hell that each law breaker get arrested, paraded, strip searched, photographed, and thrown in with the general population and be made to pay huge exorbitant amount of bail.

If State Department ever so make a pipsqueak about the treatment, they should be served a big cup of "STFU" tea.

Doktor
17 Dec 13,, 09:01
She was not abused. She got way better benefits than she would have gotten in India and she suffered no physical abuse no limitation on freedom. She started suffering limitations of freedom when she started blackmailing and started demanding more money. After that she was let go.
Way better benefits then at home?

The blackmail was based on what? Fulfillment of minimum requirements written by law?



Where is the abuse being alleged other than being required to be paid minimum wage? The maid got a better deal because she got free benefits which outweighed the minimum wage and you are completely ignoring that fact. Do you know what minimum wage is for? the purpose of the minimum wage? It is to allow people with very limited means to provide adequate lodging and food on the table and eke out a passable living. With the benefits she got, the purpose of the minimum wage has already been served.
Then why the charges?

Triple C
17 Dec 13,, 09:05
The diplomat would not be in violation of minimum wage statutes if she can provide documentation (http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/14c/19a.htm)that proves the food and boarding she provides the housekeeper makes up for the shortfall in cash wages. Yet charges are being filed. We will see.

lemontree
17 Dec 13,, 09:26
Hitesh, you are arguing for an Indian bureaucrat to deny American rights to a person on American soil. You are arguing for an Indian to break American law on American soil as she sees fit, even when she does not have the authority, especially when she does not have the authority to do so.

No sir, he is only arguing that a senior Indian diplomat should not be handcuffed like a common criminal. If US laws have been violated then the same can be addressed in a manner that is becoming of consular/embassy staff. Please throw the rule book at her, by all means.

This is only getting ugly
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Diplomats-arrest-Shinde-Modi-and-Rahul-refuse-to-meet-US-delegation/articleshow/27515440.cms

India has asked US to return all ID cards issued to their consular officers posted in the country.
This is a precursor to reviewing immunity and benefits enjoyed by US consular officers in India.

lemontree
17 Dec 13,, 09:37
Way better benefits then at home?
Yes, way way better benefits - a full time maid back home in India, would get about INR 5k - 6k (about USD 100) at an average (only in Mumbai), excluding boarding and lodging.

lemontree
17 Dec 13,, 11:08
latest update:
Devyani Khobragade's arrest: angry India takes reciprocal steps | NDTV.com (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/devyani-khobragade-s-arrest-angry-india-takes-reciprocal-steps-459772?pfrom=home-lateststories)

US diplomats in consulates across India have been asked to surrender identity cards issued to them and their families, which entitle them to special privileges. India has also withdrawn all airport passes for consulates and embassies and asked the Delhi police to remove barricades outside the US embassy.

"The law of strict reciprocity is in place, if they say Ms Khobragade had limited immunity then so will US officials" diplomatic sources told NDTV.

India is also asking for details like salaries paid to Indian staff employed in US consulates, including those working as domestic helps with the families of American officials.

New Delhi has also asked for the visa details of all teachers at US schools, what they're being paid and their bank accounts.
Import clearances for the American embassy have also been removed, in what are being described as the "initial steps" in India's reciprocal moves.

An American diplomat's same sex partner was issued a diplomatic visa some time back. I guess under Indian law they are liable to be arrested.

P.S
The reading here is that the US State Department cleared the arrest of the Indian diplomat as a diversion, due to the pressure India is putting for the extradition of the 26/11 convict Headley.

sated buddha
17 Dec 13,, 11:17
But strip search of a diplomat, that too a lady, is a bit too much. This is surely something that has other deeper undertones to it. It could so easily have been done more smoothly and discreetly than the way it was handled. She was handcuffed just outsid the school of her kids. And then put into general populace with druggies and such.

Doktor
17 Dec 13,, 11:22
Yes, way way better benefits - a full time maid back home in India, would get about INR 5k - 6k (about USD 100) at an average (only in Mumbai), excluding boarding and lodging.

What's the minimum wage in Mumbai? ;)

Bigfella
17 Dec 13,, 11:28
But strip search of a diplomat, that too a lady, is a bit too much. This is surely something that has other deeper undertones to it. It could so easily have been done more smoothly and discreetly than the way it was handled. She was handcuffed just outsid the school of her kids. And then put into general populace with druggies and such.

That bit of the process was down to the NYPD & local DA. it could definitely have been done differently, but it might not be any more than the DA being a 'hardass' of the local cops doing the same.

anil
17 Dec 13,, 11:33
Indian police has removed security from all US embassies across india along with airport passes issued to US officials

The counter-measures are:


--All US diplomats must submit details of salaries paid to their servants, maids, gardeners and other domestic servants to the Indian authorities.
Since the US embassy is considered US soil, it expects that all indian workers have been paid as per US labour laws. http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/darksmiles/biggrin.gif {basically, this would probably incriminate every US official in india}


--All American Schools must submit details of salaries paid to teachers and their bank account details, to be forwarded to Income Tax department for tax compliance.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/darksmiles/biggrin.gif


--All security barriers allowed to be erected on Nyaya Marg in the diplomatic enclave Chanakyapuri, New Delhi, for security purposes for the US embassy, will now be dismantled.
Breaking news across fifty or so indian news channels - "A DALIT WOMEN STRIPPED BY AMERICAN GOVT IN USA AND JAILED ALONGSIDE DRUG DEALERS". The dalit activists, hooligans etc are going to make a bee line towards the US embassy with all kinds of weapons.


--All import clearances given to US diplomats for importing fine food, wine and other costly items, as exemptions under customs duty rules, stand revoked.
Cost of US budget for maintaining US officials in india increased 3 folds


--All US diplomats working in consulates across India have been asked to submit their IDs to Indian authorities.
Can't leave the country

Minskaya
17 Dec 13,, 12:08
It seems to me that State was sending some sort of message. The consular employee was merely the bottle.

At this stage, I think knee-jerk reactions from India are unwise and counter-productive.

sated buddha
17 Dec 13,, 12:23
It seems to me that State was sending some sort of message. The consular employee was merely the bottle.

At this stage, I think knee-jerk reactions from India are unwise and counter-productive.

Unless the actions snowballing on the Indian side are also some form of message in reply. Via many bottles.

Personally from what I have seen here, most Indians are not getting into the legalities of it on the ground level. Bottom line of reactions across the country seem to be that she is someone representing India in the US. And this sort of treatment is not something against the person but against the country she represents. Namely, India.

Such comes with responsibilities on her side as well as caveats of conduct on the side of the host nation. And from what I know, even historically, treatment meted out to diplomats and emissaries is always a nuanced equation between two sides.

When people of times gone by realized that throwing a messenger to the lions invited more of their own thrown to the bears in the other's land, concepts of immunity emerged.

Such seem to have been flouted in a pretty cavalier fashion here, hence the reaction. Added to that the fact that she is a lady, and the stripping has serious social over and undertones here.

anil
17 Dec 13,, 12:32
sated buddha,

If india actually started prosecuting US officials in india using the law of the land argument(instead of the current policy of looking the other way), some of these guys would have been in jail, while most others on bail forced to register their existence personally every week at the local police stations.

Just take a took at this investigation

--All US diplomats must submit details of salaries paid to their servants, maids, gardeners and other domestic servants to the Indian authorities.
All these guys will be clearly found guilty in the coming days you can bet on it

sated buddha
17 Dec 13,, 12:35
sated buddha,

If india actually started prosecution US officials in india using the law of the land argument(instead of the current policy of looking the other way), some of these guys would have been in jail, while most others on bail forced to register their existence personally every week at the local police stations.

Anil, by the looks of things, and with Arnob and co. foaming at the mouth, such may soon come to pass for some lower level fall guys from their side, properly nuanced to just escalate, yet not to tipping point. The next 24 hours will reveal more I'm sure.

anil
17 Dec 13,, 12:44
sated buddha,

If the US wants to play this game then it is they who stand to loose all or most.

What I don't understand is why did they disrespect diplomatic rights in the first place?

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 12:49
It seems to me that State was sending some sort of message. The consular employee was merely the bottle.

The only major disagreement between the US State dept. and India that we know of concerns David Headley. I can't think of anything else.



At this stage, I think knee-jerk reactions from India are unwise and counter-productive.
Maybe, but not reacting at all would be worse. It would send a message to countries around the world that India didn't care about how its diplomats are treated by them. They have to play the wait and watch game. Sooner or later, some US diplomat in India is going to slip up. Bad luck for him.

Bigfella
17 Dec 13,, 12:53
If the US wants to play this game then it is they who stand to loose all or most.



How do you figure that?

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 12:56
No, just thieves.

She certainly doesn't come from an affluent family background. It is evident that her father used his position to allot her prime property, meant for war veterans and defence services, at dirt rate prices so she could sell it later at much higher prime rates. And this we know only because the Adarsh scam became national news. I wonder what other dubious means they used to acquire their black wealth. A family of lying, habituated corrupt thieves.

Tronic, it is obvious that she committed the crime and if she was just a regular wealthy Indian woman in the US who had done this, we wouldn't be having an argument. But she is a Deputy Consul General, and there are protocols to be followed. Protocols that the US expects other countries to follow with their errant diplomats. Some have gotten away with manslaughter.


In July 2013, Joshua Walde, an American diplomat in Nairobi, Kenya, crashed into a mini-bus killing a father of three, and seriously injuring eight others.[48] United States embassy officials took the diplomat and his family out of Kenya the following day.[48] The other crash victims were left with no financial assistance to pay for hospital bills. The widow of the victim has not been contacted by the driver or embassy officials. The United States government is concerned about the impact the accident could have on bilateral relations with Kenya.[48] Walde was an information management officer at the United States embassy in Nairobi at the time of the crash.[48] Walde gave a statement to police, but was not detained due to his diplomatic immunity


On 3 December 2004, in Bucharest, Romania, Christopher Van Goethem, an American Marine serving his embassy, disregarded a traffic signal to stop, collided with a taxi, and killed the popular Romanian musician Teo Peter.[19] Van Goethem's blood alcohol content was estimated at 0.09% from a breathalyser test, but he refused to give a blood sample for further testing and left for Germany before charges could be filed in Romania.[20] The Romanian government requested the American government to lift his immunity, which it has refused to do. In a court-martial, he was acquitted of manslaughter and adultery (which is still a court martial offence) but was convicted of obstruction of justice and making false statements


Diplomatic immunity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic_incidents)

anil
17 Dec 13,, 13:02
How do you figure that?
On culture

To give you an example, find me a US official in india who actually speaks the local language or dresses in local garments.

If a culture is homogeneous. it will be terrified by diversity. It will force cultures to comply.
If a culture is not homogeneous, it can cross the bridge.

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 13:05
On culture

To give you an example, find me a US official in india who actually speaks the local language or dresses in local garments.

What has that got to do with anything?

.

anil
17 Dec 13,, 13:08
What has that got to do with anything? .
It means they cannot cross the bridge. They will find it it extremely difficult to comply with other cultures.

Bigfella
17 Dec 13,, 13:18
On culture

To give you an example, find me a US official in india who actually speaks the local language or dresses in local garments.

If a culture is homogeneous. it will be terrified by diversity. It will force cultures to comply.
If a culture is not homogeneous, it can cross the bridge.

Not only do I have no idea what you are talking about (if you think US culture is homogeneous you need to get out more), but I don't remotely see how it relates to the US having 'more to lose'.

Additionally, if you are saying that not a single US diplomat or member of the consular staff speaks Hindi I'd like to see some proof. Still not relevant, however.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 13:50
No sir, he is only arguing that a senior Indian diplomat should not be handcuffed like a common criminal. If US laws have been violated then the same can be addressed in a manner that is becoming of consular/embassy staff. Please throw the rule book at her, by all means.Captain, a quick google of diplomats being arrested in the past showed that this is normal practice regardless of which country is involved. Qatar, Pakistan, and the Netherlands.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 14:06
Since the US embassy is considered US soil, it expects that all indian workers have been paid as per US labour laws. http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/darksmiles/biggrin.gif {basically, this would probably incriminate every US official in india}No, this is a grey area. Those areas under diplomatic immunity, ie the Embassy and the Ambassador's Residences are outside the jurisdiction of the hosting countries. Murder and domestic abuse has happened and the hosting countries could not arrest the diplomats.

However, the home of the DCS is not diplomatic residence. It is the host country's territory. India's Laws apply to Councilors in India.

Doktor
17 Dec 13,, 14:16
I think he meant it would be interesting to see if US authorities will do investigation. Since it US soil, US laws apply...

What's next? Charges for employing immigrants? :biggrin:

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 14:58
No, this is a grey area. Those areas under diplomatic immunity, ie the Embassy and the Ambassador's Residences are outside the jurisdiction of the hosting countries. Murder and domestic abuse has happened and the hosting countries could not arrest the diplomats.

However, the home of the DCS is not diplomatic residence. It is the host country's territory. India's Laws apply to Councilors in India.

Easy enough. Due to the law of repricocity, India can start demanding US diplomats pay all servants to this standard. If US demand Indian diplomats pay maids at $4500 fine, India can start demanding diplomats pay maids in this amount and more.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 15:06
It seems to me that State was sending some sort of message. The consular employee was merely the bottle.

At this stage, I think knee-jerk reactions from India are unwise and counter-productive.

No it is a counter-message back to the US. Called tit for tat.

Although removing the barricades is not a good idea unless it can be shown that there are no barricades around the Indian embassy in Washington and they refuse to permit barricades. If that is the case, then remove the barricades by all means.

Reciprocity demands such actions.

anil
17 Dec 13,, 15:07
I have no idea what you are talking about
The US is enforcing her terms, India is enforcing hers. The culture difference is too much.


Those areas under diplomatic immunity
Not anymore. It has become fair game now.

Bigfella
17 Dec 13,, 15:10
The US is enforcing her terms, India is enforcing hers. The culture difference is too much.

You are not making the slightest bit of sense & you have still not explained how the US has 'more to lose'. You have also not offered the slightest bit of proof that none of the US diplomatic or consular staff speak any Indian languages. I'm afraid there is an awful lot of rambling, chest beating & other nonsense on this thread & not much by way of reasoned argument.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 15:11
Easy enough. Due to the law of repricocity, India can start demanding US diplomats pay all servants to this standard. If US demand Indian diplomats pay maids at $4500 fine, India can start demanding diplomats pay maids in this amount and more.Fine. Get it through Parliment. And it will not be for Americans alone, you have to apply the same standards to Iran, China, Russia, Japan, the EU, Bangladesh, and Pakistan.


Not anymore. It has become fair game now.Still is. Until India orders the Embassies closed, she cannot say what is and what is not Diplomatic Territory.

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 15:28
Apparently, India had gone out of its way to provide a spousal visa to a gay US diplomat's partner despite gay marriages being invalid in India. They had shifted out the IFS officer who denied the Visa because it was against the rules.

IFS officer denies visa to spouse of gay American diplomat, moved out (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ifs-officer-denies-visa-to-spouse-of-gay-american-diplomat-moved-out/1201023/)

Such special considerations are on their way out now..

India downgrades privileges of US diplomats (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/turn-in-your-ids-india-tells-us-diplomats/article5469325.ece)



If the US is still not contrite and refuses to arrive at ‘creative solutions’, the government might closely examine whether American diplomats are adhering to the spirit of each Indian law. As a senior Indian diplomat told The Hindu, “If you monetise the facilities we give to our home-workers, it adds to a decent sum. There is absolutely no hint of exploitation.’’

The US should accommodate that aspect, otherwise “We also know who all have brought in their gay partners and on what grounds they were given visas though there is a law against it in India. We can’t talk about it because this law is controversial and outdated but if the US wants to go to this extent, then this law and several other options are there,’’ said the officials.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 15:33
Frankly, I have no problems with that. I do not want to send people representing my country to other countries who will insult those countries. If being gay insults you, then I should have enough sense not to send a gay ambassador to live in your house. Your house, your rules.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 15:33
Fine. Get it through Parliment. And it will not be for Americans alone, you have to apply the same standards to Iran, China, Russia, Japan, the EU, Bangladesh, and Pakistan.

No the standards does not have to be applied to those countries. The reciprocity doesn't work that way. India can pass a law singling out a group and start demanding more payment like US has done with the H1-B visas towards India.



Still is. Until India orders the Embassies closed, she cannot say what is and what is not Diplomatic Territory.

Yes she can. She can say that this land is no longer suitable for diplomatic territory. Recall the time when Gaddafi came to NYC and he wanted to pitch a tent in the middle of the Libyan grounds and US said no? There is your counter example.

Doktor
17 Dec 13,, 15:41
This is getting way out of hand and way too emotional.

I am surprised officials and diplomats fall on this.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 15:41
No the standards does not have to be applied to those countries. The reciprocity doesn't work that way. India can pass a law singling out a group and start demanding more payment like US has done with the H1-B visas towards India.I really like to see how that would survive a Consitutional Challenge on discrimination.


Yes she can. She can say that this land is no longer suitable for diplomatic territory. Recall the time when Gaddafi came to NYC and he wanted to pitch a tent in the middle of the Libyan grounds and US said no? There is your counter example.It wasn't Libyan territory. It was Donald Trump's property that Libya rented.

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 15:43
Frankly, I have no problems with that. I do not want to send people representing my country to other countries who will insult those countries. If being gay insults you, then I should have enough sense not to send a gay ambassador to live in your house. Your house, your rules.

Colonel, none of this was necessary. I absolutely abhor that ancient anti-gay law and hope they get rid of it soon, but the US wants to play dirty. Diplomats are given a bit of leeway unless it results in something serious like death or physical harm (and US diplomats have gotten away with those too in some countries). From what I hear, US diplomats in India have received their fair share of leeway. This recent tit-for-tat could have been completely avoided if the US had simply declared Khobragade persona-non-grata instead of going the whole hog with the strip searching, confiscating her passport and now her impending prosecution.

Doktor
17 Dec 13,, 15:44
It wasn't Libyan territory. It was Donald Trump's property that Libya rented.

Rented, leased or owned doesn't matter. If it is Embassy it's considered foreign soil. I think.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 15:46
This recent tit-for-tat could have been completely avoided if the US had simply declared Khobragade persona-non-grata instead of going the whole hog with the strip searching, confiscating her passport and now her impending prosecution.Don't you get it? She pissed somebody off.

anil
17 Dec 13,, 15:47
Bigfella, the US officials in india live in a sugar coated environment created and maintained by new delhi. The politicians in delhi are threatening to remove it. That's whats happening right now.

And india is going according to the "law of the land" argument. It means "law of the land" triumphs over any and every diplomatic rights of the US officials. The argument was and is being made by the US officials in USA whenever indian officials argue against the arrest of devyani.

India is saying, "if the US is making that argument, we will too".

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 15:52
Rented, leased or owned doesn't matter. If it is Embassy it's considered foreign soil. I think.Doesn't take away from the property owner's rights. Donald Trump was the one who removed the tent, not the US Government.

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 15:53
Don't you get it? She pissed somebody off.
Who? Or is this just a result of Preet Bharara's opportunism? In any case, this has pissed India off now. The US has actually managed to unite the ruling and opposition politicians. Both sides refused to meet a US Congressional delegation currently in India (or on its way, I'm not sure). It's just a symbolic gesture for now but hopefully there's more to follow like the steps being taken to remove privileges accorded to US diplomats.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 16:23
Who?Don't know but the NYPD said the orders to treat her per SOP came from higher up, ie the cops were going to be nice until ordered otherwise.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 16:40
I will lay 10 to 1 odds that this will become a LAW AND ORDER CSI episode.

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 16:44
Don't know but the NYPD said the orders to treat her per SOP came from higher up, ie the cops were going to be nice until ordered otherwise.

They picked a great time to pull off this stunt. Elections are around the corner in India and politicians are going to be falling over themselves to show that they are "responding".

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 16:45
They picked a great time to pull off this stunt. Elections are around the corner in India and politicians are going to be falling over themselves to show that they are "responding".God send to your politicians. They don't have to deal with real issues.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 16:47
I really like to see how that would survive a Consitutional Challenge on discrimination.

US doesn't fall under that category of class protected from discrimination. Besides it is foreign government to foreign government



It wasn't Libyan territory. It was Donald Trump's property that Libya rented.

I stand corrected.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 16:48
Don't you get it? She pissed somebody off.

Yeah and in doing so, that person just pissed off GoI. Not a good way of sending a message.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 16:50
US doesn't fall under that category of class protected from discrimination. Besides it is foreign government to foreign governmentBut an American Councilor is not a full diplomat and therefore, would be subject to discrimination based upon his nationality. Let me rephrase. Does IBM need to start paying their workers in India American wages?

Double Edge
17 Dec 13,, 16:51
A quick google on Sangeeta Richard showed that she was gone as of June and it was only after India filed charges and request extradition that the US found her and got the story.

Kobragade did not file a Missing Person with the NYPD. She used her own links in India to get her maid deported ... and got bitten in the ass.

This is the type of person the pro-Kobragade is defending?

I would have thrown the book at her.
SOP when a maid absconds is to inform the authorities.

But given Kobraghade's position was compromised her options were limited. How an extradition request helps in this case isn't clear. Extradition means crimes were committed earlier in India by this maid, a bit unlikely.

It's just a comedy of errors compounding. All she had to do was pack the maid off back to India if it was not working out. Exercise the ultimate power an employer has to terminate employment. The maid became a flight risk which was missed and then it was too late.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 16:52
Yeah and in doing so, that person just pissed off GoI. Not a good way of sending a message.I am going to get blasted for this. I'll bet you a bag of cheetos that it's a woman Khobragade pissed off.

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 16:54
She should have done that, SOP when a maid absconds is to inform the authorities.

But given her position was compromised her options were limited.

She also knew that Richard had voluntarily run away. It's not like she'd been kidnapped. And as I said before, Richard broke US law when she ran away too.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 16:57
She also knew that Richard had voluntarily run away. It's not like she'd been kidnapped. And as I said before, Richard broke US law when she ran away too.Double strike against Khobragade. Failure to report a felony.

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 17:00
Double strike against Khobragade. Failure to report a felony.

Sure. But why is the person who committed it not in handcuffs?

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 17:06
Sure. But why is the person who committed it not in handcuffs?She is. She's in custody awaiting an Extradition Hearing.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 17:13
It's just a comedy of errors compounding. All she had to do was pack the maid off back to India if it was not working out. Exercise the ultimate power an employer has to terminate employment. The maid became a flight risk which was missed and then it was too late.But this kind of treatment? It's not like this has not happened before? Twice before with this consulate in fact but the strip search? That's new and it was ordered from higher ups. She pissed off somebody else who was looking for payback.

Double Edge
17 Dec 13,, 17:20
Regarding the extradition request (http://www.firstpost.com/world/the-us-has-gone-overboard-against-indian-diplomat-devyani-khobragade-1290477.html)...


An important fact in this case, which the US court cannot disregard, is that Khobragade had registered a complaint in a New Delhi court earlier this year against her domestic help Sangeeta Richard after she was harassed by the maid with demands for more money. Khobragade got a boost when a court in Delhi issued a non-bailable arrest warrant against Richard. In September this year the Delhi High Court issued an injunction restraining the maid from instituting any action or proceedings against Khobragade outside India. Sadly, the US authorities have ignored this important side of the story.

The maid wanted to work weekends elsewhere which would have violated the visa.

She should have packed her off earlier...

ambidex
17 Dec 13,, 17:25
The Delhi Police removed security barricades from outside the sprawling US embassy in the capital today, as a furious India retaliated with a slew of measures to pare down the privileges of American diplomats after details of the arrest of its diplomat Devyani Khobragade in New York last week became public. (Pics: Delhi Police removes barricades outside US embassy)

US diplomats in consulates across India have been asked to surrender identity cards issued to them and their families, which entitle them to special privileges including diplomatic immunity. India has also withdrawn all airport passes for consulates and import clearances for the embassy.




As part of its reciprocal measures, India is asking for details like salaries paid to Indian staff employed in US consulates, including those working as domestic helps with the families of American officials. Officials say US consulates in India are US territory so Indian workers there should be paid American wages.

New Delhi has also asked for the visa details of all teachers at US schools, details of their salary and their bank accounts to determine if they pay taxes.


Diplomat Devyani Khobragade's arrest: India acts tough with US, takes tit-for-tat measures | NDTV.com (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/diplomat-devyani-khobragade-s-arrest-india-acts-tough-with-us-takes-tit-for-tat-measures-459918?pfrom=home-lateststories)

What next, show standard procedures of Delhi/Haryana Police ?

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 17:25
Am I reading this right?

Khobragade went to an Indian Court to stop Richards from getting her American rights in the US.

The Indian Court issued an arrest warrant for a labour dispute.

The Indian Court also forbade Richards from seeking American legal actions against Khobragade in the United States.

On what planet is this Indian Court on? I forbid you to seek legal help.

Double Edge
17 Dec 13,, 17:32
Am I reading this right?

Khobragade went to an Indian Court to stop Richards from getting her American rights in the US.

The Indian Court issued an arrest warrant for a labour dispute.
It would seem that Khobragade was unable to terminate her employment. The maid absconded. So Khobragade filed a case against her. The Delhi court turned the maid into a fugitive of India hence the extradition request.

This means maid's chances of getting asylum in the US increase.


The Indian Court also forbade Richards from seeking American legal actions against Khobragade in the United States.

On what planet is this Indian Court on? I forbid you to seek legal help.
Cannot explain the underlined bit.

Oracle
17 Dec 13,, 18:58
As you sow, so shall you reap.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 21:15
Am I reading this right?

Khobragade went to an Indian Court to stop Richards from getting her American rights in the US.

The Indian Court issued an arrest warrant for a labour dispute.

The Indian Court also forbade Richards from seeking American legal actions against Khobragade in the United States.

On what planet is this Indian Court on? I forbid you to seek legal help.

It is about establishing jurisdiction. Richards can still go ahead and get legal help but any monetary award she gets in US will be offset by the punishment in India.

The court can issue an arrest warrant if they find the defendant in contempt. Apparently they found her to be in contempt. Yes the court can forbid an Indian citizen from pursuing legal action if it is found to be impeding against Indian sovereignty or involving a foreign government in an internal Indian matter.

So if Richards tries to collect money from Khobragade and the Indian court can re-issue an arrest warrant notice and fines. Tit for tat.

Richards could have defended herself in Indian courts but she didn't. She'd rather do it in America courts, thus imposing American jurisdiction over an internal Indian matter. That is what Indian courts found intolerable.

See here from a link posted above:


An important fact in this case, which the US court cannot disregard, is that Khobragade had registered a complaint in a New Delhi court earlier this year against her domestic help Sangeeta Richard after she was harassed by the maid with demands for more money. Khobragade got a boost when a court in Delhi issued a non-bailable arrest warrant against Richard. In September this year the Delhi High Court issued an injunction restraining the maid from instituting any action or proceedings against Khobragade outside India. Sadly, the US authorities have ignored this important side of the story.

Notice this is the Delhi High Court, the second most powerful court in India after the Supreme Court. You can bet your bottom dollar that they solely view this entire matter as an internal matter not to be interfered by an outside power. Now an Indian diplomat got arrested and strip searched, I can guarantee you that the Indian courts will show no amount of leniency and apply the full extent of the law. They will not stand for the idea that Indian sovereignty can be easily abrogated.

Richards had full rights in the Indian system but she refused to follow the Indian system and chose to follow the American system.

The American court will do the same thing that the Indian court did.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 21:25
But an American Councilor is not a full diplomat and therefore, would be subject to discrimination based upon his nationality. Let me rephrase. Does IBM need to start paying their workers in India American wages?

It can be made on a case by case basis. Foreign consular workers are not in the same class as foreign workers. They are a in a different class.

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 21:30
It can be made on a case by case basis.Translation: appropriate bribes. Hitesh, hearing your countrymen, how long do you think before your bureaucrats extend this money making schemes to all the other countries?

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 21:46
Translation: appropriate bribes. Hitesh, hearing your countrymen, how long do you think before your bureaucrats extend this money making schemes to all the other countries?

Don't know but you were asking about the legality of it and I showed you how it could be legal. The point is that now Americans are on a short leash. GoI is hopping mad.

Albany Rifles
17 Dec 13,, 22:00
If Indian consular officers who do not have full diplomatic immunity break American laws then I expect them to be prosecuted by US courts.

If US consular officers who do not have full diplomatic immunity break Indian laws then I expect them to be prosecuted by Indian courts.


All the wailing and gnashing of teeth is a waste of oxygen and time.

If 2 great countries can be brought to cross purposes by petty criminals.....well then we are not great countries.

zraver
17 Dec 13,, 22:01
Am I reading this right?

Khobragade went to an Indian Court to stop Richards from getting her American rights in the US.

The Indian Court issued an arrest warrant for a labour dispute.

The Indian Court also forbade Richards from seeking American legal actions against Khobragade in the United States.

On what planet is this Indian Court on? I forbid you to seek legal help.

Again, the maid wanted the monies owed to her, the employer refused and used home country legal threats- all the requirements of human trafficking are now met.

For all the Indian chest thumpers- why are you all still calling her a diplomat? She is a consular official who committed a felony and per the relevant treaties can be prosecuted.

zraver
17 Dec 13,, 22:02
Don't know but you were asking about the legality of it and I showed you how it could be legal. The point is that now Americans are on a short leash. GoI is hopping mad.


The US on a short leash... I honestly didn't know you had a sense of humor.

Doktor
17 Dec 13,, 22:08
The US on a short leash... I honestly didn't know you had a sense of humor.

Well you can't say that those without immunity are really care-free. There will be someone picked on random to satisfy the masses.

Would you be so comfy if you would be the candidate for that role?

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 22:13
The US on a short leash... I honestly didn't know you had a sense of humor.

Americans, not US. The context is activities in India and what extent will they be permitted. Try to keep up.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 22:16
Again, the maid wanted the monies owed to her, the employer refused and used home country legal threats- all the requirements of human trafficking are now met.

For all the Indian chest thumpers- why are you all still calling her a diplomat? She is a consular official who committed a felony and per the relevant treaties can be prosecuted.

No, the maid and the diplomat had an agreement before she came into US and she was totally fine with that. Now she is using the US law as a way of double dipping considering she did received benefits such as free lodging, food, medical care, etc. expenses that had to be paid by the employer.

She wants to hide behind the minimum wage law to get more money than to what she originally agreed to. When she wanted more money, she was let go and then she tried to come back against the diplomat using the law as a weapon. The minimum wage law was created in the first place to allow people with low incomes to get affordable housing and food so they wouldn't be on the streets starving.

You refuse to see the fact that the maid is double-dipping.

Doktor
17 Dec 13,, 22:26
No, the maid and the diplomat had an agreement before she came into US and she was totally fine with that.
People are greedy, yes.


Now she is using the US law as a way of double dipping considering she did received benefits such as free lodging, food, medical care, etc. expenses that had to be paid by the employer.
Can the employer prove that? I think someone mentioned that if it is an option, they would have no problem.


She wants to hide behind the minimum wage law to get more money than to what she originally agreed to.
The law overrides previous and current agreements.


When she wanted more money, she was let go and then she tried to come back against the diplomat using the law as a weapon.
That can be used as a defense in court. Why the employer didn't report the let go?


The minimum wage law was created in the first place to allow people with low incomes to get affordable housing and food so they wouldn't be on the streets starving.
Intentions for writing a law is one thing, what's written in it is another. Judges rule by what's written. Right?


You refuse to see the fact that the maid is double-dipping.
Why not let the court decide for it?

Albany Rifles
17 Dec 13,, 22:37
BM,

While I can see you are upset over the double dipping....does her double dipping as you say it violate US law?

zraver
17 Dec 13,, 22:38
No, the maid and the diplomat had an agreement before she came into US and she was totally fine with that. Now she is using the US law as a way of double dipping considering she did received benefits such as free lodging, food, medical care, etc. expenses that had to be paid by the employer.

Not a diplomat, a consular official. They are legally separate categories. Try and keep up.

Second, benefits do not count towards the hourly minimum wage. For example a US worker making min wage will only get paid $7.25 per hour directly but indirectly the employers is also contributing to FICA, workmans comp and unemployment insurance on the employee's behalf. $7.25 per hour min wage means per hour regardless of fringe benefits.


She wants to hide behind the minimum wage law to get more money than to what she originally agreed to. When she wanted more money, she was let go and then she tried to come back against the diplomat using the law as a weapon. The minimum wage law was created in the first place to allow people with low incomes to get affordable housing and food so they wouldn't be on the streets starving.

That is not what the evidence suggests. The evidence suggest it was the employer who first turned to the courts- Indian courts for something happening on US soil. An employers with a history of abusing the legal system and purgery back in India.


You refuse to see the fact that the maid is double-dipping.

The Visa application says the maid was promised $4500 a month. That fact requires one of three other conditions to now exist- 1. Either the maid is getting ripped off (human trafficking) or 2. the employers committed fraud- both are felonies that consular officials can be prosecuted for. neither of them by the way depend in any way on the actions of the maid. 3. both 1 and 2 can be true at the same time.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 22:50
If Indian consular officers who do not have full diplomatic immunity break American laws then I expect them to be prosecuted by US courts.

If US consular officers who do not have full diplomatic immunity break Indian laws then I expect them to be prosecuted by Indian courts.


All the wailing and gnashing of teeth is a waste of oxygen and time.

If 2 great countries can be brought to cross purposes by petty criminals.....well then we are not great countries.

Normally I wouldn't have a problem with this if it wasn't for the way the Indian diplomat was treated. The rough treatment of the diplomat is viewed as a personal affront against Indian sovereignty. If US had declared her persona non grata and issued a show cause notice or subpoena to appear in court, then the GoI would have not interfere and let this matter be dealt quietly. But somebody at the higher ups of US agencies wasn't have any of that and wanted a public display and got GoI involved and made it lose face. Now you got all this brouhaha.

There is no easy way out with a face saving move.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 22:54
BM,

While I can see you are upset over the double dipping....does her double dipping as you say it violate US law?

Remains to be seen as how she files her income return. But the point remains is that she wasn't mistreated or subjugated to slavery conditions as zraver is so fond of saying. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If US had dealt with this matter quietly and told GoI in a private message to take this consular officer back and pay up what is owed or come to an agreement, the entire matter would have been resolved. But no, somebody decided to publicly humiliate the diplomat and in the process of doing so, made GoI lose face. That is something GoI cannot tolerate.

zraver
17 Dec 13,, 22:54
^^^ She was treated the same as a US citizen would have been... No loss of face from that. The only loss of face is India throwing a temper tantrum like a spoiled child. So much for India being ready for the big leagues and a spot on the security council.....

Officer of Engineers
17 Dec 13,, 22:56
If US had declared her persona non grata and issued a show cause notice or subpoena to appear in court, then the GoI would have not interfere and let this matter be dealt quietly.Reading this, couldn't be done. At least not without violating Richard's rights in the US.

If the US declares the DCG person non-grata. She goes home but the Extradition stands. Without her testimoney one way or the other, Richards is up shits creek with no basis of declaring a violation by the DCG of her VISA and she is extradited back to India. She still may. Running away to find better work as an illegal instead of going to the police about her rights.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 23:10
Second, benefits do not count towards the hourly minimum wage. For example a US worker making min wage will only get paid $7.25 per hour directly but indirectly the employers is also contributing to FICA, workmans comp and unemployment insurance on the employee's behalf. $7.25 per hour min wage means per hour regardless of fringe benefits.


Then how does $7.25 an hour come out to $4,500 a month? By that rate, it should be $1,160.00 Yes living accommodations can be applied toward hourly minimum wage. Otherwise benefits would not be taxable.




That is not what the evidence suggests. The evidence suggest it was the employer who first turned to the courts- Indian courts for something happening on US soil. An employers with a history of abusing the legal system and purgery back in India.
The contract was created in India and therefore subject to Indian jurisdiction. There have been legal precedents in America where a contract was formed in America for something happening outside of US soil and US courts found jurisdiction over such contracts.




The Visa application says the maid was promised $4500 a month. That fact requires one of three other conditions to now exist- 1. Either the maid is getting ripped off (human trafficking) or 2. the employers committed fraud- both are felonies that consular officials can be prosecuted for. neither of them by the way depend in any way on the actions of the maid. 3. both 1 and 2 can be true at the same time.

Or the diplomat could be mistaken in thinking that benefits apply to the $4500 threshold and therefore $4,500 was promised. By the way, According to this government website https://labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/minwage.shtm
: minimum wage in NY is $7.25 so how did it come to be $4,500 as required?

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 23:14
^^^ She was treated the same as a US citizen would have been... No loss of face from that. The only loss of face is India throwing a temper tantrum like a spoiled child. So much for India being ready for the big leagues and a spot on the security council.....

No she wasn't treated like a regular US citizen. She was made an example of. A big difference.

India doesn't need you to tell her that she is not ready for the big leagues nor your approval for a security council. I remember all the brouhaha over CIA contractor Davis. US was throwing tantrum left and right with US Congress threatening to cut off all aid. By your standards, US wasn't ready for the big leagues. Then US should take its seat off the security council. India is not a country to play fiddle to your whims.

And why are you bring in the Security Council into this. People accuse me of going off on a tangent but apparently you are going off an tangent in a big way.

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 23:15
Then how does $7.25 an hour come out to $4,500 a month? By that rate, it should be $1,160.00 Yes living accommodations can be applied toward hourly minimum wage. Otherwise benefits would not be taxable.


The mystery of why Devyani Khobragade should have paid $54,000 a year to Sangeeta Richards (http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2013/12/17/mystery-devyani-khobragade-paid-54000-year-sangeeta-richards/)



According to the allegations against her, Khobragade and her maid had agreed that Khobragade would pay 30,000 rupees per month, which at the time was equivalent to $573.07. At 40 hours per week, with approximately 4.3 weeks in a month, $573.07 equates to a rate of $3.31 per hour. However, the complaint says, Khobragade instructed her maid to say that she would be paid $9.75 per hour, and not to say anything about being paid 30,000 rupees per month. Khobragade also instructed the maid to say that she would work 40 hours per week, with duty hours being 7 a.m. to 12:30 p.m., and 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. Khobragade, it’s alleged, told the maid that the amount of $4,500 per month was a US prerequisite to get a visa.

Now, as important as it is to ask who decided to process the maid’s visa in India in the first place, given Khobragade’s salary, it is also important to ask as to where did this number of $4,500 come from?

Let’s do a quick math (with calculators): $9.75 x 40 (hours of work per week) is equal to $390. In a month with 4 weeks, Khobragade’s maid, Sangeeta Richard, would make $1560. In the five months of the year with five weeks, she would make $1950. A full time year (at 40 hours a week) is equal to 2080 hours, which means the annual salary for her would be $20,280, almost one third of what the US government wanted Khobragade to pay her maid – $54,000 annually.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a maid and housekeeper in the US earned an average median salary of $19,390 in 2011, or approximately $9.32 per hour. That year, there were 111, 600 individuals working such jobs in the country. In comparison, a restaurant cook’s median salary is $22,080; a security guard makes $23, 900; a pre-school teacher made $26, 620; a sports coach $28, 470; Bookkeeping, Accounting, & Audit Clerks made $34,740, while a bus driver made 35,720, and a marriage and family therapist’s media salary was $46,240, just a bit more than what Khobragade’s maid was supposed to be paid.

But then Sangeeta Richards was employed as a maid and housekeeper, not as a marriage and family therapist. Her salary should be closer to $20,000.

I think she made a big mistake while filling up the visa application. She probably wasn't concerned because she never planned to pay the actual amount mentioned there anyway.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 23:16
Reading this, couldn't be done. At least not without violating Richard's rights in the US.

If the US declares the DCG person non-grata. She goes home but the Extradition stands. Without her testimoney one way or the other, Richards is up shits creek with no basis of declaring a violation by the DCG of her VISA and she is extradited back to India. She still may. Running away to find better work as an illegal instead of going to the police about her rights.

An gentleman's agreement could have been made. You made the point that somebody was pissed at her. Well that person could have done something about her without pissing off GoI.

Also, Richards still have rights in India. She could have appealed the decision but she decided not to or other reasons unknown. But it is not fair to characterize that she had no rights whatsoever. She absconded and a warrant was served upon her and she failed or refused to show her. Indian courts gave her the right to be heard and she refused to do so. Due process was followed.

Blademaster
17 Dec 13,, 23:21
The mystery of why Devyani Khobragade should have paid $54,000 a year to Sangeeta Richards (http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2013/12/17/mystery-devyani-khobragade-paid-54000-year-sangeeta-richards/)

This proves my point that what the maid was doing was a shakedown of the diplomat and demanded more money and tried to use the law against the diplomat. We have to explore what the diplomat was thinking when she put down $4,500. Did she mean to say that it included the benefits that the maid was getting in terms of living accommodations and expenses? If so, then it was a honest mistake. I mean honestly, how much time do people spend filling out applications and give second thought to what they put down and really think about what it means.

In my law career, I have had people come to me with confusion over visa applications and as to what they mean. It can be confusing at times because some of the terms are ambiguous and it was intended that way for some of them.

zraver
17 Dec 13,, 23:26
Then how does $7.25 an hour come out to $4,500 a month?

It doesn't, the min wage was originally brought up to show that the maid wasn't even making min wage and thus was in violation of Us labor laws. In addition the minimum wage amount per hours worked must be paid in cash, not in kind.


By that rate, it should be $1,160.00 Yes living accommodations can be applied toward hourly minimum wage. Otherwise benefits would not be taxable.

NO, min wage must be paid cash before any deductions for amounts over that amount for in-kind contributions

29 CFR 541.606

29 CFR 541.606 - Board, lodging or other facilities. | Title 29 - Labor | Code of Federal Regulations | LII / Legal Information Institute (http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/29/541.606)


The contract was created in India and therefore subject to Indian jurisdiction.

On US soil, US laws apply. A consulate and a consular officials residence are not Indian soil. That is reserved for Embassies.


There have been legal precedents in America where a contract was formed in America for something happening outside of US soil and US courts found jurisdiction over such contracts.

Yup- to make sure such obeyed both domestic US and domestic foreign law by picking the most strict of the two- not the least strick.


Or the diplomat

Seriosuly? She is in no way a diplomat- which requires host country accreditation. Why do you keep using that word?

You keep using that word. - YouTube (http://youtu.be/G2y8Sx4B2Sk)



could be mistaken in thinking that benefits apply to the $4500 threshold and therefore $4,500 was promised. By the way, According to this government website https://labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/laborstandards/workprot/minwage.shtm
: minimum wage in NY is $7.25 so how did it come to be $4,500 as required?

Sure a person with a history of claiming I didn't know i was cheating the system might make an honest mistake. But this is at least strike three for her in terms of lying to the legal system for personal benefit.... Its a pattern that really stretches credibility. Yet, despite evidence of wrong doing by the employers you continue to try and blame the maid... Its almost like you are so wedded to being right that you don't actually care about the truth anymore.

Firestorm
17 Dec 13,, 23:29
This proves my point that what the maid was doing was a shakedown of the diplomat and demanded more money and tried to use the law against the diplomat. We have to explore what the diplomat was thinking when she put down $4,500. Did she mean to say that it included the benefits that the maid was getting in terms of living accommodations and expenses? If so, then it was a honest mistake. I mean honestly, how much time do people spend filling out applications and give second thought to what they put down and really think about what it means.

Well the exact figure was probably a mistake, but like I said, I don't think she ever planned on paying the listed amount anyway. The unofficial verbal agreement with the maid was always Rs. 30k a month. Now, I don't have any links to back me but what I hear is that such verbal agreements aren't uncommon between IFS officers posted abroad and their personal housekeepers etc. Since they don't have to pay rent or for food, they basically take up these offers to make some substantial (by Indian standards) savings while their employers are posted abroad and return after a few years.

Most of the times, this works. This particular maid however got other ideas after reaching there. She wanted to work elsewhere on her off days and wanted a regular passport (not the official one she had) that would enable her to do that.

Tronic
17 Dec 13,, 23:37
If Indian consular officers who do not have full diplomatic immunity break American laws then I expect them to be prosecuted by US courts.

If US consular officers who do not have full diplomatic immunity break Indian laws then I expect them to be prosecuted by Indian courts.


All the wailing and gnashing of teeth is a waste of oxygen and time.

If 2 great countries can be brought to cross purposes by petty criminals.....well then we are not great countries.

Amen to that!

Tronic
17 Dec 13,, 23:37
Again, the maid wanted the monies owed to her, the employer refused and used home country legal threats- all the requirements of human trafficking are now met.

The maid got greedy and wanted to earn some real money on American wages, not the $3 she agreed her terms on, when making her way to the US. The maid ain't all that innocent.

Only thing which makes me furious against her employer is that she broke laws being an Indian government official.

I just find it a bit ironic that some Indians here are offended by the fact that US law caught up to her in the manner it did, rather than being offended that a lady a history such as Khobragade was representing their country. IMO, Misplaced priorities.

'National' pride should not trump government corruption.