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  • Why give aid to a country sending rockets to Mars?

    LADIES and gentlemen, we now have a winner in the contest for the most fatuous official statement of the year.

    Last year India received £280million in aid from British taxpayers. On Tuesday it launched its first rocket to Mars at a cost of more than £45million.

    Asked why we were handing over money to a country that can afford to send rockets into space, a spokesman for the Department for International Development said: "Not a penny of British taxpayers' aid money has gone on India's space programme."

    And with that, the unidentified spokesman should take a bow. He or she is the runaway winner of the contest.

    Mind you, fatuous doesn't even come close to describing the deliberate, calculating missing-of-the-point mindset revealed by that statement.

    The issue is what are we doing handing over British taxpayers' money to a country wealthy enough to allocate around £750million of its own money for a space programme?

    Aid is trumpeted by its advocates as a form of moral duty on the wealthy West - that we have an obligation to do our bit to help those less well off than ourselves. As David Cameron put it: "Even when things are difficult at home we should fulfil our moral obligations to the poorest of the world."

    The majority of people would agree with the broad sentiment that the wealthy do indeed have a charitable duty to the poor. But fine as that sentiment is in intention, when applied internationally it can be distorted beyond all sense. For one thing, there's the corruption intrinsically linked to aid.

    Study after study reveals the corruption that is endemic in the aid industry - and that's what it is, a multi-billion-pound global industry.

    Then there's the fact that much aid ends up making things worse - by subsidising inefficiency and bankrolling societies that are incapable of standing on their own two feet, it can act to prevent poor areas ever adopting the reforms or developing the tools needed to grow and prosper.

    As for our "moral obligation to the poorest of the world", if you want to understand how distorted that gets, just look closely at what the Department for International Development spokesman had to say about the Indian space programme.

    Yes, India still has grinding poverty of a kind no British welfare recipient ever experiences. But if India chooses to spend its vast resources and growing wealth on rockets, why is it our duty to make up the difference with aid? As if to ram home the madness, India even has its own £328million-a-year overseas aid budget, not to mention a huge defence budget.

    Where is the moral duty on us to send taxpayers' money to a nation that has enough of its own wealth for that?

    Yet under the last Labour government India was the largest net recipient of British aid, receiving £421million in 2010.

    And then when the coalition took over in 2010, far from tightening the purse-strings, David Cameron's obsession with aid meant that the then international development secretary Andrew Mitchell agreed to hand over another £1.1billion in the years up to 2014. It's true that his successor Justine Greening announced last year that we would stop giving India any more taxpayers' money from 2015.

    That did not go down well in India. Its then finance minister Pranab Mukherjee reacted by saying that British aid was "a peanut in our total development expenditure".

    In which case he won't miss it. But none of that explains, let alone justifies, why we have thrown away - and are still doing so this year - so much money on a country that simply doesn't need it.

    This year alone, remember, even though we have already decided that India doesn't need our money, we are handing over £280million. It beggars belief.

    The real explanation is that logic and need don't enter the equation. Yesterday it was revealed that we are stopping any further aid to the Ugandan government after corrupt government officials were shown to have stolen £1.3million. That's sensible - even if, astonishingly, it is the first time that all aid payments have been stopped to a country's government as a reaction to corruption being exposed.

    But there'll be no reduction in the total amount actually sent to Uganda. It will still receive another £37.5million. It's just that instead of it going to the government it will be given to aid agencies to distribute. And so overall the aid budget continues to soar.


    Ministers have repeated their commitment to increase the amount we give away to £11.3billion this year. That will mean that we hit the target they have repeatedly said is their aim - spending 0.7 per cent of national income on aid. The sums are breathtaking. Next year it will be £12.6billion.

    And although we are stopping aid to one country with a space programme, we have already given Nigeria £300million this year. That's the same Nigeria that has its own space programme.

    What a bizarre racket. The hardworking poor in the West hand over their taxes to governments which would rather squander their taxes on space programmes than dealing with their own problems.

    Confused? Not half as confused as our own government.

    Express
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  • #2
    Most of the money never reaches Indian people in need, only to the linings of British NGOs' pockets in exchange for their "services". It is a big joke. India doesn't want the aid that British is offering.

    Comment


    • #3
      Sensible question.

      If India can send a mission to Mars, why can't it end poverty, or female infanticide, malnutrition, spend more on education, on R & D, infrastructure, healthcare, power and the list is long. India shining my arse.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
        Most of the money never reaches Indian people in need, only to the linings of British NGOs' pockets in exchange for their "services". It is a big joke. India doesn't want the aid that British is offering.
        That's not true. You do know that money that comes in the form of aid exchanges hand in India. It's we who are to be held accountable and when guilty shot. Please. We seem to copy the habit of our neighbor of blaming the West for all of our problems.
        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Oracle View Post
          If India can send a mission to Mars, why can't it end poverty, or female infanticide, malnutrition, spend more on education, on R & D, infrastructure, healthcare, power and the list is long. India shining my arse...
          Oracle,

          I think it is unfair to equate the too kinds f spending. I suppose the same can be said : Why can't India stop poverty if it can spend so much on
          1. Launching satellites
          2. Building a nuclear program
          3. Military procurement
          4. singing and dancing
          5. Playing cricket


          I think you can understand that most of these questions are futile and represent a lack of understanding of issues. All of these problems are not necessary due to lack of finances, we have seen grains rotting in FCI godowns while people starve. There are deeper problems, many of them social in nature. Female infanticide is a great example. Subsidies on higher educations in another.

          That said, I think it is fair for us to turn down aid.
          "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

          Comment


          • #6
            Mostly true. Reserving my space for argument.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              Sensible question.

              If India can send a mission to Mars, why can't it end poverty, or female infanticide, malnutrition, spend more on education, on R & D, infrastructure, healthcare, power and the list is long. India shining my arse.
              So you are one of those people that would pull down an individual for aiming for the stars. It is the kind of mentality that keeps India back. I do not agree with your thinking or mentality.

              I encourage India to go full steam in its space exploration. What you espouse is the sort of drivel espoused by left leaning people or people who believes in the stupid "white man's burden" crap.

              You don't speak for the nation with the kind of view you are espousing.

              That's not true. You do know that money that comes in the form of aid exchanges hand in India. It's we who are to be held accountable and when guilty shot. Please. We seem to copy the habit of our neighbor of blaming the West for all of our problems.
              I am sorry but that is so ignorant that I am not even gonna bother responding to.

              Here is a rejoinder to your nihilistic view from the top man of DRDO. Link here: BBC News - India's space-based 'revolution'

              Q: Any launch by India's space organisation is greeted with a lot of excitement and a lot of pride. But there is also criticism when the country is facing an economic slowdown. It has problems with power shortages and it faces high levels of poverty and malnutrition. How would you react to this?

              A: Why India has to be in the space programme is a question that has been asked over the last 50 years. The answer then, now and in the future will be: "it is for finding solutions to the problems of man and society." And in this area, India has become a role model for the whole world. Let me talk in terms of numbers.

              We spend in India about a billion dollars for the space programme. If we look at the central government expenditure, we spend 0.34% of its budget for the space programme. This goes primarily for building satellites in communications and remote sensing and navigation for space applications. Nearly 35% of it goes on launch vehicle development and about 7-8% goes on the science and exploration programme. So the Mars mission we're talking about today is part of that 8% of the 0.34% of Indian central government expenditure. And if you look at the benefit that the country has accrued over the years, it has surpassed the money that has been spent in terms of tangible and intangible benefits.

              [This can be expressed in terms of] the advantage that the people have got, the fishermen have got, the farmers have got, the government bodies have got for informed decision-making, the support the country has got for disaster management and by providing a communication infrastructure for this country using the INSAT satellites. Today we have nearly 10 communication satellites and 10 remote sensing satellites in orbit. This is a great revolution that has taken place over these last 50 years in the country by a meagre expenditure that has been put into the space programme.
              Another rejoinder this time by a westerner. Link here India prepares to take flight to Mars with the Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM) | The Planetary Society

              As a nation that contains hundreds of millions of people living in crushing poverty, how can they spend money on space exploration?
              This is a fair question. I've driven past slums in Mumbai with a sick feeling in my heart at the difficulty of the lives that they lead, and the enormity and complexity of the problem of improving their conditions. However, there's an error in the question. It assumes that there is a fixed quantity of wealth in India, and that stopping investment in high-tech industry would mean more money for the poor. Wealth doesn't work that way; there is not a fixed quantity of it. The technology India is developing for this mission has direct commercial applications, generating economic activity that will increase the nation's overall wealth. And I think that backers of India's space program believe that achieving a successful mission to Mars would increase confidence in India's technological prowess and therefore the flow of investment money. To be seen in the company of the U.S. and China and Europe would have to stimulate such investment.

              That being said, it's true that making India overall wealthier will not necessarily benefit India's poor. Making new wealth improve the lives of India's poor depends on action by India's people and their elected representatives to accomplish that goal. The space program can't do that directly. The space program can make India wealthier.

              Plus, there's a lot to be said, I think, for the intangible benefits that a nation's space program can bring to the country's mood. Even, sometimes, if it's not completely successful. I don't know India well enough to predict what will happen in the public sphere if the mission fails. Much depends on when failure happens. Blowing up on the launch pad would be heartbreaking. If they manage to depart Earth for Mars, that'll be one thing they've never achieved before, bringing them into the company of interplanetary spacefarers like the U.S., Russia, Europe, Japan, and China. If they manage to gather any data on Mars, even without entering orbit, that's another thing achieved, by only the U.S., Russia, Europe, and Japan. If they manage to enter orbit -- any orbit -- with a functioning spacecraft, that would be something that only the U.S., Russia, and Europe have managed to do. And so on.

              In the event of any failure, I hope that they will consider the effort to "dare mighty things" to be its own reward. Those are words from a speech by Theodore Roosevelt. I would love to know if there is an appropriate speech on a similar theme by an Indian luminary.

              It is not the critic who counts; nor the one who points out how the strong person stumbled, or where the doer of a deed could have done better. The credit belongs to the person who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; who does actually strive to do deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotion, spends oneself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at worst, if he or she fails, at least fails while daring greatly. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those timid spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.

              Comment


              • #8
                Another link rebutting the stupid crap and criticisms against the space mission:

                Mythbusting India's Mars Mission

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                  Most of the money never reaches Indian people in need, only to the linings of British NGOs' pockets in exchange for their "services". It is a big joke. India doesn't want the aid that British is offering.
                  It is indeed a big joke, but the money is not pocketed only by officials of NGOs, but also by corrupt Indian officials implementing some of these foreign funded projects.

                  Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  That's not true. You do know that money that comes in the form of aid exchanges hand in India. It's we who are to be held accountable and when guilty shot. Please. We seem to copy the habit of our neighbor of blaming the West for all of our problems.
                  Oracle, Who here has blamed the West? And for what?

                  The world isn't always so black and white. Indian officials are corrupt, while oftentimes NGO's themselves have questionable agendas:

                  Responding to a question, MoS for home Mullappally Ramachandran said Rs 9914.19 crore foreign contribution was received by 21,365 NGOs in 2007-08, Rs 10987.05 crore by 22,544 NGOs in 2008-09 and Rs 10340.25 crore by 21,674 NGOs in 2009-10.

                  On whether such funds are being misused for opposing the setting up of the Kudankulam nuclear plant, the minister said that preliminary reports have suggested alleged misuse of foreign funds for opposing the setting up of the nuclear plant in Tamil Nadu, and probe has been ordered into it.

                  "There are intelligence inputs of some organizations diverting funds for purposes other than the permitted use of foreign funds. These matters are being investigated," he said in his written answer.

                  His statement came on the day when a Congress member B S Gnanadesikan raised the issue during Special Mention in the Upper House. He said, "Government should establish a data base of NGOs to whom foreign contribution is increasing day by day. There are reports that funds are being utilized to fuel unrest in government projects."

                  Seeking a strong surveillance system he said it was needed "in the interest of national security" as government records show that nearly 22,000 voluntary groups have received Rs 10,000 crore donations from abroad for social service in 2009-10.

                  Of these NGOs, a large number "belong to Tamil Nadu which together received Rs 1663.31 crore as contribution from abroad, mostly from the US, the UK, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands," he added.

                  NGOs? foreign aid: Rs 31,000 crore in four years - Times Of India
                  Neither can be trusted. Pointing this out does not amount to 'blaming the West'. It is rather sensible to ask the British taxpayers to demand that their government spend that money in Britain itself rather than have it squandered away in this manner.

                  Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  Sensible question.

                  If India can send a mission to Mars, why can't it end poverty, or female infanticide, malnutrition, spend more on education, on R & D, infrastructure, healthcare, power and the list is long.
                  Because sending a mission to Mars is spending money on R&D. It's not something you buy off the shelf and launch. Infact, the Indian Space Program not only keeps the lines of highly skilled people seeking work visas at foreign embassies a bit shorter, but has played a large part in putting rural India on the broadcasting and internet grid, helps in agricultural resource management, and has arguably saved tens of thousands of lives due to real time intelligence during natural disasters. The INSATs are easily one of the most valuable assets the country has in helping bridge the urban-rural divide.
                  Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                  -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    Sensible question.

                    If India can send a mission to Mars, why can't it end poverty, or female infanticide, malnutrition, spend more on education, on R & D, infrastructure, healthcare, power and the list is long.
                    Not sensible, its a non-sequitur kind of question :slap:

                    This mission is billed at around 500 crores, or ~$85 million. You think that's enough to address that list you have there.

                    India sends a mission to Mars to keep its scientists busy and thinking. full stop. The one thing we actually do R & D about instead of buying wholesale from abroad.

                    Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    India shining my arse.
                    Over twenty years ago India was bankrupt, if somebody said at that time that we would be sending something to Mars you'd have thought it ridiculous. How is it that since we actually launched something in that direction. What will the next twenty have in store.

                    Shooting something in that direction is half the problem, getting it there another. landing yet another. Fingers crossed nothing goes wrong as this is very challenging.
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 07 Nov 13,, 22:14.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Uk's aid money is one sided(the indian govt doesn't ask for it, far from it) and the there's a reason why they(UK) won't stop it anytime soon. They british govt somehow thinks that the aid money will help maintain a cultural link between india and britian.

                      The aid money is not govt to govt but rather it goes to NGO's and just like any other aid money from saudi or dutch, the indian intelligence has to monitor where exactly the money gets channelled. Last year, when the $20bn indian fighter jet deal didn't go in favour of the UKs eurofighter, the issue of "aid money" was again raked up the british media and that left many in india to wonder whether some of that "aid money" had gone inside the pockets of indian officials connected to the fighter deal.

                      Though all this doesn't stop the british citizens who are absolutely convinced that the aid money actually funds the indian space program. Although part of this sentiment might be coming from a realisation that its own space and security programs have been outsourced to the US govt. So when a country(india) whos only pictures that beam on the UKs national media are poverty, rape, caste violence etc suddenly beam a video of a giant rocket aimed at mars, it must provoke an extreme outrageousness in them. Indians will need to take this behaviour with an understanding.

                      --------

                      The indian case however is all about its "national budget". It's no secret that the indian space program runs on very little money than what it actually needs.

                      Budget for 2013-14

                      The allocation for department of space was 5,615 cr (US$860million)

                      vs

                      1) Allocations to the Ministry of HRD = 65,800 cr
                      2) Mid-day meal schemes = 13,215 cr
                      3) Food Security Bill = 10,000 cr
                      4) Alternative medicine industry = 1106 cr
                      5) Scheduled Caste sub-plan = 41,561 cr
                      6) Tribal sub-plan = 25,498 cr
                      7) Scholarships for students hailing from India's Scheduled Caste (SC)/ Scheduled Tribe (ST), and Other Backward Castes (OBC) = 5284 cr
                      8 ) Drinking water and sanitation = 15,260 cr
                      9) Agriculture ministry = 27,049 cr

                      Indias annual space budget is $860million compared to nasas annual budget of $18.724 bn(2011)

                      This is what the indian space department plans to do with its $860million allocated budget


                      Note the foreign launching cost(euro space agency) of two gsat 15 and 16 sat alone comes to around 605cr which is 10% of the budget. This is why indian space program is very important for india.
                      Last edited by anil; 08 Nov 13,, 05:06.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't see why the Brits are so pissed with a Mars project that costs less than 100 million USD.

                        Tell the Brits your Russian made carrier costs 2.3 billion USD. That will shut them up.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Had india actually received crucial technology transfer from russia, it would have been the GSLV cruising towards mars in the mid 90s rather than the PSLV today

                          While we're still on the subject of cost and figures:




                          To paraphrase UR Rao,

                          I don't understand why the whole world is shouting about indians spending $72mn or $700mn on space exploration cause it's certainly a proud day for india. But these very same concerned world citizens and critiques have no problem spending 5 times that($500mn) for watching a $100mn dollar 3D movie(gravity) whose cast and crew never even left the earths orbit in the first place. But when india actually sends a probe out of the earths orbit and all the way to mars in that budget, everyone suddenly seems to get constipations?
                          Last edited by anil; 09 Nov 13,, 04:48.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The mission was secretly funded by UN, so when once people start living on Mars, there will be curry, as we know curry is a human right now.

                            On a more serious note, Indians (and Brits for that matter) should be really pissed over that $300mn monument that is going to be built.
                            Last edited by Doktor; 09 Nov 13,, 10:02. Reason: Adding link
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                              The mission was secretly funded by UN, so when once people start living on Mars, there will be curry, as we know curry is a human right now.

                              On a more serious note, Indians (and Brits for that matter) should be really pissed over that $300mn monument that is going to be built.
                              yes we are. Its an ugly monster that should never exist.
                              The irony of a polarising and divisive figure constructing a monument to unity seems to be lost on most people
                              For Gallifrey! For Victory! For the end of time itself!!

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