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prash
07 Oct 13,, 14:07
lemontree,major do you have any idea what is happening in keran sector? seems like government is hiding something.why has it taken 14 day to flush out the terrorists out of a small ghost village? and the op is still going on..

Agnostic Muslim
07 Oct 13,, 14:41
The time-frame is not necessarily unusual given the IA's statements regarding the difficult terrain. As an example, the recent PA operation in Tirah valley in FATA took almost a month to complete.

104 terrorists, 8 troops killed in operation against Taliban (http://zeenews.india.com/news/south-asia/over-100-militants-killed-in-operation-in-northwest-pakistan_874149.html)

lemontree
07 Oct 13,, 18:36
lemontree,major do you have any idea what is happening in keran sector? seems like government is hiding something.why has it taken 14 day to flush out the terrorists out of a small ghost village? and the op is still going on..

Nothing is being hidden. It is not some hill feature that can be occupied. Its an infiltration attempt by jihadis and assisted by Pak regular army troops.
12-15 of them have been killed during the first 4 days. Ops in there areas take time, there is no need to rush as no momentum has to be maintained.

Agnostic Muslim
07 Oct 13,, 19:35
... and assisted by Pak regular army troops.


That is unsubstantiated speculation.

Sharp reaction: Pakistani envoy slams Indian media – The Express Tribune (http://tribune.com.pk/story/614586/sharp-reaction-pakistani-envoy-slams-indian-media/)

cdude
07 Oct 13,, 22:36
BBC News - Kashmir: Indian army makes 'large haul' of arms and ammunition (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-24425378)

"A large haul of seven AK47 rifles and war ammunition has been recovered. The recovery made by the army makes the designs of militants amply clear," Col Sanjay Mitra told reporters.

LOL

farhan_9909
07 Oct 13,, 23:00
BBC News - Kashmir: Indian army makes 'large haul' of arms and ammunition (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-24425378)

"A large haul of seven AK47 rifles and war ammunition has been recovered. The recovery made by the army makes the designs of militants amply clear," Col Sanjay Mitra told reporters.

LOL

The picture i have seen in the other forums(posted by indian members) show ak-74U.

Media sources claim ak47 while the pics of captured gun shown are ak-74u

cdude
07 Oct 13,, 23:20
The picture i have seen in the other forums(posted by indian members) show ak-74U.

Media sources claim ak47 while the pics of captured gun shown are ak-74u

Are you saying Col Sanjay Mitra cannot tell the difference between an AK-74 and an AK-47?

Tronic
08 Oct 13,, 01:49
seems like government is hiding something.why has it taken 14 day to flush out the terrorists out of a small ghost village? and the op is still going on..

Nothing to hide.. It's an infiltration attempt and due to the terrain, and the ease at which the militants can cross back into the safety of Pakistan, it's a cat and mouse game which sometimes takes time.

This bunch didn't get too far..

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That is unsubstantiated speculation.

Sometimes there is direct evidence of PA collaboration with militants in the form of radio intercepts, fire cover, etc, while at other times it is purely speculation. Even if the latter, I won't call it "unsubstantiated"..

For example; here are the pics of the militants that attacked the army base in Jammu about a week back:

Open at your own discretion; may be a bit gruesome
http://i.imgur.com/gl1NFJS.jpg

Although there has been no direct evidence linking these militants with the PA in this case (or atleast none publicly shared as of yet), their kit is the intriguing part.. They carried out a commando style hit on an Indian army base, and they came fully kitted up for the task. So if these aren't PA supported units which are carrying out these ops, than I think that more than India, it is Pakistan which should be worrying..

Firestorm
08 Oct 13,, 02:57
The picture i have seen in the other forums(posted by indian members) show ak-74U.

Media sources claim ak47 while the pics of captured gun shown are ak-74u

Link/Post the pics. Many a times the journalists use older recycled images if they don't have a fresh one. There have been so many weapons seizures in Kashmir, that there are no dearth of pics lying around.

Tronic
08 Oct 13,, 04:17
Link/Post the pics. Many a times the journalists use older recycled images if they don't have a fresh one. There have been so many weapons seizures in Kashmir, that there are no dearth of pics lying around.

cdude is trolling, ignore him.

Both Ak-47s and 74Us have been recovered/captured.

http://i.imgur.com/n2jJFPY.jpg
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The picture i have seen in the other forums(posted by indian members) show ak-74U.

Media sources claim ak47 while the pics of captured gun shown are ak-74u

Weapons have been captured at several different instances during the duration of the last 2 weeks. Those "7 Ak-47s" mentioned by Col Mitra are from one instance out of a couple.

"He said the recoveries include seven AK 47 rifles, four pistols, one sniper rifle, 20 UBGL grenades, two radio-sets and other war-like stores.

Some medicines and food items were also recovered, he said.

Army had yesterday recovered six AK rifles, 10 pistols, five radio-sets and other items after the search operations in the sector, Col Mitra said."
Huge cache of arms recovered from J&K's Keran sector, Centre 'assessing' situation - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Huge-cache-of-arms-recovered-from-JKs-Keran-sector-Centre-assessing-situation/articleshow/23655358.cms)

So that would be 13 captured AKs (both Ak-47s and 74Us) over the last 2 days.

Firestorm
08 Oct 13,, 05:20
cdude is trolling, ignore him.

I was responding to Farhan. As for cdude, well I would expect nothing less.

Thanks for the pic. I knew I had seen it somewhere earlier today, but was unable to find it.

farhan_9909
08 Oct 13,, 07:37
I was responding to Farhan. As for cdude, well I would expect nothing less.

Thanks for the pic. I knew I had seen it somewhere earlier today, but was unable to find it.

If this is to be believed and the above AK 74U indeed are captured.Than from the built i can say that yes they do look the one made in Pakistan and is having striking similarities to the one in my hand

*But there is also a possibility that they might be showing these old pics of ak 74u(may be once captured) to put more weight to the blame on Pakistan

34075
Compare with this

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Firestorm
08 Oct 13,, 07:49
If this is to be believed and the above AK 74U indeed are captured.Than from the built i can say that yes they do look the one made in Pakistan and is having striking similarities to the one in my hand

*But there is also a possibility that they might be showing these old pics of ak 74u(may be once captured) to put more weight to the blame on Pakistan

......
Thats pretty much what an AKS-74U made anywhere looks like. What's special about it? Making all sorts of AK-series rifles is a flourishing cottage industry in some parts of Pakistan. We don't have to look at the pictures to conclude that the terrorists (who crossed over from PoK) may have bought their weapons there (or weapons bought there would have been provided to them by their handlers).

farhan_9909
08 Oct 13,, 08:02
Thats pretty much what an AKS-74U made anywhere looks like. What's special about it? Making all sorts of AK-series rifles is a flourishing cottage industry in some parts of Pakistan. We don't have to look at the pictures to conclude that the terrorists (who crossed over from PoK) may have bought their weapons there (or weapons bought there would have been provided to them by their handlers).

Well No,I can easily differentiate between a ak74u made somewhere else and a made in Pakistan(darra or anywhere else in kpk)

They are of extremely useless quality.I really doubt if PA really was to sent them,than atleast they would have given them a proper working rifle.Not these useless toys.
They are only good within 100m range,Made of extremely uselss raw material,Not even close to the real,the imported barrels are of extremely useless quality if they still Don't have the CNC's for manufacturing them.

While those made by POF are not for civilian(though i doubt POF makes ak-74u)

Firestorm
08 Oct 13,, 08:09
BTW, Tronic, I had posted this: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/central-south-asia/64465-12-killed-twin-fidayeen-attacks-jammu-india-2.html#post933675 a few days back for you and others who were excited about the talks. Don't know if you read it. Posting it here, since there is a new thread now...


Fat lot of good all the "peace talks" did.

Jammu & Kashmir's Keran sector witnessing Kargil rerun? (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-10-03/india/42663302_1_infiltration-bid-keran-sector-pakistani-army)

The Army is trying to downplay the incident. But the fact remains that there were about 30-40 infiltrators who actually occupied Indian territory instead of sneaking in to set off bombs as is the usual SOP. And they have been trading fire with the army for about 10 days now despite losing nearly half their force. Clearly, they are well supplied and well trained. IA spokespersons have made remarks about their excellent fire discipline etc., the sort you expect from a professional army.

The truth is that it is physically impossible to sanitize every inch of the border all the time. There will always be gaps, unit rotations, equipment inadequacies etc., that the PA. can exploit. Plus they have their time-tested tactic of conducting artillery barrages as covering fire for the infiltration teams. Tronic talks about being vigilant and "hitting back" without really delving into the difficulties that the IA faces. The IA will always be on the defensive whilst we continue to merely react to such incidents and fight solely on our side of the border. Unless we take the fight into their territory these incidents will continue to happen. And you can't do something like that if you are conducting "peace talks" and discussing CBMs. Not unless you are willing to shamelessly lie about your soldiers being involved and refuse to accept their dead bodies like the PA did during Kargil and continues to do now.

Firestorm
08 Oct 13,, 08:13
Well No,I can easily differentiate between a ak74u made somewhere else and a made in Pakistan(darra or anywhere else in kpk)

Won't argue with you. You obviously have more knowledge considering you tote an AKS-74U yourself.


They are of extremely useless quality.I really doubt if PA really was to sent them,than atleast they would have given them a proper working rifle.Not these useless toys.
They are only good within 100m range,Made of extremely uselss raw material,Not even close to the real,the imported barrels are of extremely useless quality if they still Don't have the CNC's for manufacturing them.

While those made by POF are not for civilian(though i doubt POF makes ak-74u)
Lol. Since they wouldn't have lasted this long with useless weapons, it seems the POF knows how to make em right. :biggrin:

farhan_9909
08 Oct 13,, 10:20
Won't argue with you. You obviously have more knowledge considering you tote an AKS-74U yourself.

Lol. Since they wouldn't have lasted this long with useless weapons, it seems the POF knows how to make em right. :biggrin:

Well over here not even the local use these kind of ak-74 in the personal conflicts let alone possible terrorist going for jihad against a well trained army across the border.

All i heard in the past week was a ghost village occupied by them and all the related stuff of crossing beyond the LOC.But the pics posted shows that they are killed within 1m(meter) of the LOC.

It seems like IA has officially shown either old pics or all those were rumours about the ghost village and 12 days long operation.

Most important they are killed on the indian side of the LOC but still the wires are very much intact unless they could jump over the wires which ofcourse is not possible.

34078

34079

ambidex
08 Oct 13,, 12:37
Well over here not even the local use these kind of ak-74 in the personal conflicts let alone possible terrorist going for jihad against a well trained army across the border.

All i heard in the past week was a ghost village occupied by them and all the related stuff of crossing beyond the LOC.But the pics posted shows that they are killed within 1m(meter) of the LOC.

It seems like IA has officially shown either old pics or all those were rumours about the ghost village and 12 days long operation.

Most important they are killed on the indian side of the LOC but still the wires are very much intact unless they could jump over the wires which ofcourse is not possible.

34078

34079

This not the first time we have killed these Pakistani rats crawling under barb wires and jumping over our fences.

ambidex
08 Oct 13,, 12:45
Army Chief names and blames Pak-News-Exclusives-TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos (http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4438650.cms)

farhan_9909
08 Oct 13,, 17:14
This not the first time we have killed these Pakistani rats crawling under barb wires and jumping over our fences.

No way they can crawl through these wires,jumping is also impossible unless they are ex olympic gold medal winners.Neither would pakistan send terrorist with such an useless ak-74u.

Rather ask IA why all this drama?

Firestorm
08 Oct 13,, 18:25
All i heard in the past week was a ghost village occupied by them and all the related stuff of crossing beyond the LOC.But the pics posted shows that they are killed within 1m(meter) of the LOC.

It seems like IA has officially shown either old pics or all those were rumours about the ghost village and 12 days long operation.

Most important they are killed on the indian side of the LOC but still the wires are very much intact unless they could jump over the wires which ofcourse is not possible.

It is possible to crawl underneath the fence if you dig a little. But the process is slow and gives time for IA troops to find them, which is what happened here, and which is the reason the fence was put in, in the first place. No fence is foolproof unless it is completely electrified.

And BTW, Keran operation ends, gunsmoke and questions hanging in the air | Firstpost (http://www.firstpost.com/india/operation-in-keran-ends-now-its-gunsmoke-and-unanswered-questions-1159751.html)


Fresh infiltration efforts on the flanks of the Shala Bhata belt were blocked. Three terrorists were killed by the 17 Punjab regiment, some four kilometers away from Shala Bhata, and another two at Gujjardor. Four more by the 12 Garhwal along the Ratu Nar stream near Farkian. These bodies have been found — but the army’s claims of success elide over the fact they were killed outside the Shala Bhata cordon, in unconnected counter-infiltration operations


The bodies shown are from the diversionary infiltration attempts.

farhan_9909
08 Oct 13,, 20:03
It is possible to crawl underneath the fence if you dig a little. But the process is slow and gives time for IA troops to find them, which is what happened here, and which is the reason the fence was put in, in the first place. No fence is foolproof unless it is completely electrified.

And BTW, Keran operation ends, gunsmoke and questions hanging in the air | Firstpost (http://www.firstpost.com/india/operation-in-keran-ends-now-its-gunsmoke-and-unanswered-questions-1159751.html)



The bodies shown are from the diversionary infiltration attempts.

very much possible but there are no sign of digging neither any cut to the wires.all of them are still intact

leave everything.From the past 2 weeks they were talking about a Ghost village being occupied by militants?But the above pic shown are within 1m of the LOC.

Let suppose they are killed within 1m of your territory.Now what i doubt is why would they first cross before checking out field view of a possible indian soldiers?
Or they penetrated the LOC and got killed.very hard to digest

The other part i dont understand is this examining these pics.How the hell it took them 12days when all of them are killed this much close to the border

7 of them are killed while initially we heard news about more than 30.?

It seems like the IA is hiding something from both the govt and the media sources.

Firestorm
08 Oct 13,, 21:02
very much possible but there are no sign of digging neither any cut to the wires.all of them are still intact

leave everything.From the past 2 weeks they were talking about a Ghost village being occupied by militants?But the above pic shown are within 1m of the LOC.

Let suppose they are killed within 1m of your territory.Now what i doubt is why would they first cross before checking out field view of a possible indian soldiers?
Or they penetrated the LOC and got killed.very hard to digest

The other part i dont understand is this examining these pics.How the hell it took them 12days when all of them are killed this much close to the border

7 of them are killed while initially we heard news about more than 30.?

It seems like the IA is hiding something from both the govt and the media sources.

Did you bother to read the article or even the part I quoted? The bodies don't belong to the terrorists from the original force. These were smaller infiltration attempts made a few kilometers away to distract the IA troops who had engaged the main force near Shala Bhata.

Tronic
08 Oct 13,, 22:51
Well No,I can easily differentiate between a ak74u made somewhere else and a made in Pakistan(darra or anywhere else in kpk)

They are of extremely useless quality.I really doubt if PA really was to sent them,than atleast they would have given them a proper working rifle.Not these useless toys.
They are only good within 100m range,Made of extremely uselss raw material,Not even close to the real,the imported barrels are of extremely useless quality if they still Don't have the CNC's for manufacturing them.

While those made by POF are not for civilian(though i doubt POF makes ak-74u)

Most of the weapons captured from Pak infiltrators are Chinese made, not products of the tribal cottage industry. As for your claim to be able to tell the build of those guns by merely looking at the pics provided; we both know how credible that assessment is.. :rolleyes:

I have seen my share of Ak series and I can tell you that there is no way in hell I can tell the make of those guns from the hazy pics provided.

Tronic
08 Oct 13,, 22:57
BTW, Tronic, I had posted this: http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/central-south-asia/64465-12-killed-twin-fidayeen-attacks-jammu-india-2.html#post933675 a few days back for you and others who were excited about the talks. Don't know if you read it. Posting it here, since there is a new thread now...

Yes, I had read it, and I failed to see any reasonable point as to why the talks shouldn't take place.


Tronic talks about being vigilant and "hitting back" without really delving into the difficulties that the IA faces. The IA will always be on the defensive whilst we continue to merely react to such incidents and fight solely on our side of the border. Unless we take the fight into their territory these incidents will continue to happen. And you can't do something like that if you are conducting "peace talks" and discussing CBMs. Not unless you are willing to shamelessly lie about your soldiers being involved and refuse to accept their dead bodies like the PA did during Kargil and continues to do now.

And yet, IA has crossed the border and hit back several times over. They can continue to do so. "Peace talks" need not always have to result in discussion over CBMs. Put that on the back burner. I'd rather talk about expanding trade and business ties, and leave the retaliation for the IA to met out in POK.

As for not accepting Indian bodies... It's a real shame but there are dozens of all too real Indian spies rotting in Pakistani prisons which India refuses to accept till date.

farhan_9909
09 Oct 13,, 07:38
Thanks to Indian Express.
Clears alot of doubt


On September 26, as a pitched battle raged between three terrorists who had raided an armoured unit of the 9 Corps in Samba and angry officers who even used main battle tanks to dislodge them, a strong statement was made miles away in Srinagar.

Lt Gen Gurmeet Singh, commander of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, said that the Army had thwarted a major infiltration bid in Kupwara's Keran sector three days earlier.

The numbers he presented were alarming — several dozen militants had tried to sneak in and the Army had shot dead 10-12, with their bodies visible in Indian territory.

Just this would have made it one of the biggest such bids in years. However, the Army went a step ahead to say that 30-40 terrorists had been trapped inside Indian territory and troops had taken positions to cordon them off.

More than two weeks later, the Army has called off the operations and no bodies have been recovered from the cordoned-off area.

With the operations called off, the following are the claims that have been made and the facts of the encounter and its repercussions:

Claim: More than two dozen militants were trapped in Keran and took over an abandoned village on the LoC.

Fact: While it was claimed 30-40 militants tried to cross over on September 23 night near Shalbhatti village, there has been no proof the village had been captured. Much of the abandoned village lies on the other side of the LoC and a few structures on the Indian side had been used by militants to take shelter against firing by Indian troops. The gun battle lasted for at least 5-7 days but the infiltrators retreated subsequently. After the initial sighting on September 23, there was never any concrete evidence that dozens of militants were holed up. Also, there was no recorded ceasefire violation in the area by the Pakistani army.

As things stand, the Army is in control of the few structures in the village on the Indian side but no bodies have been recovered. As Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh said, there was never any attempt to capture Indian territory. He termed it an infiltration, not an intrusion.

Claim: Twin attacks happened on September 26. While three militants attacked Samba, 30-40 infiltrators tried to enter from Keran sector.


Fact: No proof yet to indicate that the two incidents were coordinated. In fact, they were separated both by geography and time. The Samba attack took place on September 26, by three militants who crossed over the International Border in Harinagar the night before. The Keran bid took place days earlier, on the night of September 23.

Claim: The Army killed 10-12 terrorists in the initial gun battle.

Fact: No proof yet that any militant was killed in the initial gun battle in Keran. While a strong cordon was laid after four Indian soldiers were injured to ensure no one entered further inside, no body has been discovered even now. Initial claims by Lt Gen Singh that 10-12 bodies were spotted lying in the area were changed later to suggest the number was indicated via radio intercepts of agents and handlers in Pakistan. Fact is that two weeks after the encounter and extensive combing operations, not a single body has been recovered from the Shalbhatti area. Theory that bodies have been taken back by militants also not credible as the difficult terrain, high altitude and tight cordon by Indian troops would have made this next to impossible.

Claim: A logistics line was established by the terrorists who held territory.


Fact: While radio intercepts suggested a supply line could be established to help terrorists who were engaged in the gun battle, there has been no evidence that they got supplies from across the border. In fact, after the initial gun battle, the terrorists are believed to have escaped at the first opportunity, hence the absence of arms or bodies even after multiple combing operations.

Claim: Several firearms have been recovered and eight militants have been killed in Shalbhatti encounter.

Fact: While there is no proof of the claimed kills on September 26, it is a fact that eight terrorists have been killed in the Keran sector in the past few days. These kills have, however, not taken place in the Shalbhatti area where terrorists were claimed to be holed up. Three terrorists were shot dead while crossing over in the Gujjardoor area Friday while four were shot dead in the Fateh Gali area Saturday and a cache of arms and supplies recovered. These militants had been a part of the 30-40 who had tried to enter from Shalbhatti on September 23. However, all weapons recovered and bodies found in the past two weeks have not been from the area.


Claim: A gun battle went on in Shalbhatti for two weeks and troops were engaged in a stand-off with holed in terrorists.


Fact: There was no exchange of fire in the area for almost a week now. All militants either escaped or retreated back. There was no verifiable firing from the militants' side for a week and Indian troops had not fired for the past few days. Simply put, after an initial gun battle in which four Indian jawans were injured and an unknown number of terrorists were hit, there was no major operation in the Shalbhatti area. The two operations in which kills occurred were in other parts of the Keran sector, 4-20 km away.

Former Northern Army Commander Lt Gen H S Panag has called the Keran incident the "big operation that never was".

"10-15 terrorists with an equal number of porters infiltrated due to surveillance patrols lapse. Exaggerated report by unit to cover lapse. Panic reaction by the 286 Brigade (under which Keran Sector falls) converted to cordon to trap the terrorists. Terrorists slipped away, media went in a tizzy," the officer has tweeted

Army winds up Keran ops leaving gaps between its claims and what's on ground - Indian Express (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/army-winds-up-keran-ops-leaving-gaps-between-its-claims-and-whats-on-ground/1180139/0)

farhan_9909
09 Oct 13,, 07:42
Did you bother to read the article or even the part I quoted? The bodies don't belong to the terrorists from the original force. These were smaller infiltration attempts made a few kilometers away to distract the IA troops who had engaged the main force near Shala Bhata.

Source Indian express


Fact: There was no exchange of fire in the area for almost a week now. All militants either escaped or retreated back. There was no verifiable firing from the militants' side for a week and Indian troops had not fired for the past few days. Simply put, after an initial gun battle in which four Indian jawans were injured and an unknown number of terrorists were hit, there was no major operation in the Shalbhatti area. The two operations in which kills occurred were in other parts of the Keran sector, 4-20 km away.

The so Called operation and those big claims of ghost village were all a make up drama's.I hope the IA should atleast be Open to the public and not Go into tricks like Politicians.
No wonder they were almost slient for 2 weeks and than came up with this

farhan_9909
09 Oct 13,, 07:46
Most of the weapons captured from Pak infiltrators are Chinese made, not products of the tribal cottage industry. As for your claim to be able to tell the build of those guns by merely looking at the pics provided; we both know how credible that assessment is.. :rolleyes:

I have seen my share of Ak series and I can tell you that there is no way in hell I can tell the make of those guns from the hazy pics provided.

Ak-74u are made only in Darra/Local markets.POF dont have the license.Neither does PA has ever imported Ak-74U or usually any other assault rifle from China.
Unless you believe just for odd militants they brought ak-74u from China.

Well one can very easily.only if the pics are of slightly higher resolution and better quality.The material built of one made in darra would be different from either a product of POF or imported from China.

Mohan
09 Oct 13,, 12:46
Whether they had what type of guns and where it came is all moot point. Pigs crossed the fence from pakisan side. They were killed.

Tronic
09 Oct 13,, 22:30
Ak-74u are made only in Darra/Local markets.POF dont have the license.Neither does PA has ever imported Ak-74U or usually any other assault rifle from China.
Unless you believe just for odd militants they brought ak-74u from China.

I said Chinese made, not POF built. There are plenty on the black market.

Dera/tribal cottage industry weapons have nothing to do with the Kashmiri militants, which have been trained and supplied by the Pakistani army (rogue or official, whichever you choose) over the last 2+ decades. Even the Taliban's mainstay weapons are not products of the tribal industry but are leftover imports from the '80s, which are maintained by the use of cheap replacement parts from the tribal arms industry.

I posted a pic of killed Kashmiri militants earlier, and here (http://i.imgur.com/gl1NFJS.jpg), you can see that the kit on these militants is nothing like what you would find on the Taliban.

farhan_9909
10 Oct 13,, 09:27
I said Chinese made, not POF built. There are plenty on the black market.

Dera/tribal cottage industry weapons have nothing to do with the Kashmiri militants, which have been trained and supplied by the Pakistani army (rogue or official, whichever you choose) over the last 2+ decades. Even the Taliban's mainstay weapons are not products of the tribal industry but are leftover imports from the '80s, which are maintained by the use of cheap replacement parts from the tribal arms industry.

I posted a pic of killed Kashmiri militants earlier, and here (http://i.imgur.com/gl1NFJS.jpg), you can see that the kit on these militants is nothing like what you would find on the Taliban.

Taliban Training these days is as good as any other country official armed forces

Beside this They dont need govt or army support when they can buy the Coalition forces left over from markets in many cities of Pakistan.
NATO weapons readily available in Pakistan | Asia | DW.DE | 05.09.2013 (http://www.dw.de/nato-weapons-readily-available-in-pakistan/a-17069115)

Now watch the video

” Must Watch” Pakistan Taliban Said We Warn Musharraf Otherwise We Will Kill HIM (http://www.zemtv.com/2013/03/24/must-watch-pakistan-taliban-said-we-warn-musharraf-otherwise-we-will-kill-him/)


And even In india they are available.

ISI or Pak Army might have supported the kashmiri militants in the 90's.But i doubt they do it now.as The kashmiri has already reached a saturated state of training and enough man power.That i doubt they even need Pakistan help these days.

I do watch the kashmir pages on facebook and the hatred i see among 80% of kashmiri on those pages seems like they are more of an raw material to join the kashmiri youth for freedom.

Other than this ISI is already alot busy and so Does the pak army with more than 1lac troops deployed and many of the other sources.Atleast until the operation in the west is On.I doubt Pakistan would do so to force india for another war.

prash
10 Oct 13,, 16:48
And even In india they are available.



really??

Agnostic Muslim
11 Oct 13,, 15:51
Concerned over LoC violations, Kayani proposes impartial UN investigations
By Web DeskPublished: October 11, 2013

RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on Friday that the accusations made by the Indian military against Pakistan Army were unfortunate, unfounded and provocative, and that Pakistan’s restraint should not be exploited for levelling baseless allegations that harm prospects of peace.

According to a press release issued by Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the comments of the Indian Army Chief alleging that Pakistan Army and Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) supported a recent militant insurgency in Keran sector of Indian administered Kashmir, were described by Kayani as unfortunate, unfounded and provocative.

The army chief said that he was concerned about the continued violations along the Line of Control from across the border. He proposed that India should reciprocate Pakistan’s suggestion of holding either a joint or an impartial investigation, preferably by the United Nations, into the LoC incidents.

“Pakistan Army was exercising restraint but the same should in no way be used as a pretext for leveling such baseless allegations that vitiate prospects of regional peace.”
Addressing a group of officers at General Headquarters, the COAS reiterated that the Pakistan Army was fully supportive of the peace process initiated by the government.

Concerned over LoC violations, Kayani proposes impartial UN investigations – The Express Tribune (http://tribune.com.pk/story/616695/concerned-over-loc-violations-kayani-proposes-impratial-un-investigations/)
========

An excellent idea, though I doubt the Indian Army is going to follow through with it, especially if the implications made in the Indian Express article (posted earlier by Farhan) have any degree of truth to them.

Dreadnought
11 Oct 13,, 16:24
NEW DELHI — The Indian army has ended a two-week-long operation against heavily armed militants who it says tried to cross into Indian Kashmir with the support of the Pakistani army. It says eight militants have been killed. The latest fighting could set back recent efforts by India and Pakistan to bring calm to the Kashmir border, where tensions have been rising.

Senior Indian army commanders say soldiers recovered a large cache of sophisticated arms, including AK-47 rifles, communication equipment and night vision devices during the two-week-long battle with a large group of infiltrators who tried to enter Indian Kashmir from the Pakistani side.

The fighting took place in thick forests along the Himalayan slopes. Several Indian soldiers were injured in the operations.

Militants routinely attempt to cross into Indian Kashmir before the onset of winter to foment a revolt against Indian rule. But the army says the scale of this incursion has been the largest in the last decade.

Lieutenant General Sanjiv Chachra said the infiltration could not have been possible along the border, also known as Line of Control or LC, without the support of the Pakistani army.

“We are almost on eyeball to eyeball. We can see each other. At such a point in time for a large group of terrorists like this infiltrating, you mean to say it can be without the complicity of the Pakistani army? I mean this is ridiculous. So therefore tacit support along the LC [Line of Control] is always there. And if you see the quantum of arms and ammunition, most of the arms have got Pakistan markings. Yesterday, you were shown an identity card, you were shown a letter, all these are evidences. We don’t have to prove this," said Chachra.The Pakistani army has denied the accusation.

The Indian and Pakistani prime ministers recently agreed to defuse tensions along the Kashmir border following a meeting in New York on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly. But the latest fighting and accusations by the Indian army are likely to set back their efforts to strengthen a cease-fire that has appeared more fragile following a series of clashes between Indian and Pakistani troops this year.

The Himalayan region of Kashmir is the core dispute between the two countries and has been the trigger for two of their three wars.

Efforts to find a solution have made no headway. While Pakistan favors mediation on the issue, India insists it is a dispute the two countries have to solve on their own.

Indian President Pranab Mukherjee repeated that position as he addressed reporters on a flight returning from an official visit to Turkey.

"Our approach in respect of Pakistan that it is essential bilateral issues, which are to be resolved between India and Pakistan themselves within the framework of Shimla agreement.Therefore, the question of any third country's intervention on this issue does
not arise," said President Mukherjee.

Pakistan’s new government has pushed for peace talks with India, but New Delhi says Islamabad’s support for cross border militancy in Kashmir is the biggest hurdle to progress. Islamabad denies supporting militants to support an insurgency in Indian Kashmir.


India Ends Limited Operation Against Militants in Kashmir (http://www.voanews.com/content/india-ends-limited-operation-against-militants-in-kashmir/1765754.html)

Tronic
11 Oct 13,, 17:11
Concerned over LoC violations, Kayani proposes impartial UN investigations
By Web DeskPublished: October 11, 2013

RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on Friday that the accusations made by the Indian military against Pakistan Army were unfortunate, unfounded and provocative, and that Pakistan’s restraint should not be exploited for levelling baseless allegations that harm prospects of peace.

According to a press release issued by Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the comments of the Indian Army Chief alleging that Pakistan Army and Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) supported a recent militant insurgency in Keran sector of Indian administered Kashmir, were described by Kayani as unfortunate, unfounded and provocative.

The army chief said that he was concerned about the continued violations along the Line of Control from across the border. He proposed that India should reciprocate Pakistan’s suggestion of holding either a joint or an impartial investigation, preferably by the United Nations, into the LoC incidents.

“Pakistan Army was exercising restraint but the same should in no way be used as a pretext for leveling such baseless allegations that vitiate prospects of regional peace.”
Addressing a group of officers at General Headquarters, the COAS reiterated that the Pakistan Army was fully supportive of the peace process initiated by the government.

Concerned over LoC violations, Kayani proposes impartial UN investigations – The Express Tribune (http://tribune.com.pk/story/616695/concerned-over-loc-violations-kayani-proposes-impratial-un-investigations/)
========

An excellent idea, though I doubt the Indian Army is going to follow through with it, especially if the implications made in the Indian Express article (posted earlier by Farhan) have any degree of truth to them.

For the last 3 decades, Pakistani goal in Kashmir has been to make the conflict international, while the Indian goal has been to keep it bilateral. Pakistani supported groups have carried out kidnappings and attacks on foreigners, hijacked airlines, and PA waged the Kargil conflict while waving the nuclear saber; all to make Kashmir an international talking point. It backfired. So this proposal by Kayani to involve the UN is quite a witty one. ;)

Agnostic Muslim
11 Oct 13,, 18:04
“We are almost on eyeball to eyeball. We can see each other. At such a point in time for a large group of terrorists like this infiltrating, you mean to say it can be without the complicity of the Pakistani army? I mean this is ridiculous. So therefore tacit support along the LC [Line of Control] is always there. And if you see the quantum of arms and ammunition, most of the arms have got Pakistan markings. Yesterday, you were shown an identity card, you were shown a letter, all these are evidences. We don’t have to prove this," said Chachra.The Pakistani army has denied the accusation.


If the PA is expected to spot any infiltration attempt on her side (given the 'eyeball to eyeball' conditions described in the excerpt above), then so is the Indian Army - they should have shot all the alleged infiltrators at the LoC.

I am not sure what the point of highlighting the 'arms with Pakistani markings' is - as Farhan pointed out earlier, NATO weapons and infantry rations and equipment is freely available for sale in the black market (after being pilfered in Afghanistan), and legal Western, Chinese and Russian arms are available legally and on the black market. Showing the media an 'ID card' and 'letter' does not, for any rational individual, suggest Pakistani State/institutional complicity in these infiltration attempts. It is in fact a rather desperate attempt to try and implicate the Pakistani Army in recent events along the LoC.

Agnostic Muslim
11 Oct 13,, 18:05
For the last 3 decades, Pakistani goal in Kashmir has been to make the conflict international, while the Indian goal has been to keep it bilateral. Pakistani supported groups have carried out kidnappings and attacks on foreigners, hijacked airlines, and PA waged the Kargil conflict while waving the nuclear saber; all to make Kashmir an international talking point. It backfired. So this proposal by Kayani to involve the UN is quite a witty one. ;)

" He proposed that India should reciprocate Pakistan’s suggestion of holding either a joint or an impartial investigation, preferably by the United Nations, into the LoC incidents."

Kayani made two proposals - a joint India-Pakistan investigation or an impartial (third party) led investigation.

Dreadnought
11 Oct 13,, 19:18
Its no secret the two have been fighting over the Kasmir region for along time.

All of these past actions over Kasmir could not have happened with out itelligence knowledge. Its doubtful they could even operate in the region with out catching someones eyes. That is if they are even looking.

By not respecting the LOC line as they formally agreed (however was not included into the Shimla agreement) because it would have caused backlash for Bhutto who knew they had a problem with extrememist back home and it would force them to make a decision. Either go to war with India over the region or hunt down the extrememist with the PA.

Hardly even a guess as too which one they chose given todays numerous conflicts with extremeists.

Bhutto should have chosen to eliminate the extrememists, instead of passify them it would have cost him his political career and probably his life but atleat by now (decades later) it would have produced a better thought train as to what was actually inhabiting the country and why it has so many troubles with its extrememists today.

One cannot claim "sovereignty" when one either will not deal with the problem at home while extremists continue to attack in other countries and dwell on their soil or one is making promises they fully know they cannot keep in fear of that problem just to keep their political career.

A real leader would have hunted down the problem and either eliminated it by either conflict, peaceful agreement or capture and deport them from the country altogether.

Wishing the problem away to keep ones political standing intact simply will not do.

Karzi may one day learn this valuable lesson as well but doubtful.

antimony
11 Oct 13,, 20:00
An excellent idea, though I doubt the Indian Army is going to follow through with it, especially if the implications made in the Indian Express article (posted earlier by Farhan) have any degree of truth to them.

Let me get one thing clear. Are you saying no infiltration has occurred (mujahideen or otherwise) from the Pakistani side into the LOC side?

Firestorm
11 Oct 13,, 20:02
Dreadnought, the "extremists" were created by the Pakistanis during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. And Bhutto was dead by then. It was Zia and later Bhutto's daughter Benazir in power when the militancy in Kashmir started. The "extremists" weren't a problem from Pakistan's viewpoint. They were the solution, since an actual war against India was deemed futile given what happened in 1971. So why would they destroy them?

Dreadnought
11 Oct 13,, 20:16
Dreadnought, the "extremists" were created by the Pakistanis during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. And Bhutto was dead by then. It was Zia and later Bhutto's daughter Benazir in power when the militancy in Kashmir started. The "extremists" weren't a problem from Pakistan's viewpoint. They were the solution, since an actual war against India was deemed futile given what happened in 1971. So why would they destroy them?

Sorry to confuse the issue I meant in 1971 when the agreement was signed betweeen Pakistani Prime Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, and the then Indian Prime Minister, Mrs Indira Gandhi.

An obvious answer to that is look at what is and has happened to the Pakistani people from the extremeists and their governments failure to eradicate them.

You have India, the US and others fighting them within their country to eradicate them. Then they turn around and car bomb, bomb and murder the Pakistanis on a daily basis.

And yet there are no doubt still ties while all of this goes on.

Its just amazing that country has not gone into full blown civil war.

farhan_9909
11 Oct 13,, 21:22
NEW DELHI — The Indian army has ended a two-week-long operation against heavily armed militants who it says tried to cross into Indian Kashmir with the support of the Pakistani army. It says eight militants have been killed. The latest fighting could set back recent efforts by India and Pakistan to bring calm to the Kashmir border, where tensions have been rising.

Senior Indian army commanders say soldiers recovered a large cache of sophisticated arms, including AK-47 rifles, communication equipment and night vision devices during the two-week-long battle with a large group of infiltrators who tried to enter Indian Kashmir from the Pakistani side.

The fighting took place in thick forests along the Himalayan slopes. Several Indian soldiers were injured in the operations.

Militants routinely attempt to cross into Indian Kashmir before the onset of winter to foment a revolt against Indian rule. But the army says the scale of this incursion has been the largest in the last decade.

Lieutenant General Sanjiv Chachra said the infiltration could not have been possible along the border, also known as Line of Control or LC, without the support of the Pakistani army.

“We are almost on eyeball to eyeball. We can see each other. At such a point in time for a large group of terrorists like this infiltrating, you mean to say it can be without the complicity of the Pakistani army? I mean this is ridiculous. So therefore tacit support along the LC [Line of Control] is always there. And if you see the quantum of arms and ammunition, most of the arms have got Pakistan markings. Yesterday, you were shown an identity card, you were shown a letter, all these are evidences. We don’t have to prove this," said Chachra.The Pakistani army has denied the accusation.

The Indian and Pakistani prime ministers recently agreed to defuse tensions along the Kashmir border following a meeting in New York on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly. But the latest fighting and accusations by the Indian army are likely to set back their efforts to strengthen a cease-fire that has appeared more fragile following a series of clashes between Indian and Pakistani troops this year.

The Himalayan region of Kashmir is the core dispute between the two countries and has been the trigger for two of their three wars.

Efforts to find a solution have made no headway. While Pakistan favors mediation on the issue, India insists it is a dispute the two countries have to solve on their own.

Indian President Pranab Mukherjee repeated that position as he addressed reporters on a flight returning from an official visit to Turkey.

"Our approach in respect of Pakistan that it is essential bilateral issues, which are to be resolved between India and Pakistan themselves within the framework of Shimla agreement.Therefore, the question of any third country's intervention on this issue does
not arise," said President Mukherjee.

Pakistan’s new government has pushed for peace talks with India, but New Delhi says Islamabad’s support for cross border militancy in Kashmir is the biggest hurdle to progress. Islamabad denies supporting militants to support an insurgency in Indian Kashmir.


India Ends Limited Operation Against Militants in Kashmir (http://www.voanews.com/content/india-ends-limited-operation-against-militants-in-kashmir/1765754.html)

Even a dumbest terrorist wont or Let suppose he was sent by Pak army would carry his CNIC with himself, or weapons market with Pakistan Name.

The letter part was very funny.

I hope they Know if ISI by Any mean was really to send a militant force across border into India.they are not this much dumb to give them their CNIC,letters and most important Such low quality rifle which over here people dont even use for personal conflict let alone fighting a well trained indian army

farhan_9909
11 Oct 13,, 21:30
Sorry to confuse the issue I meant in 1971 when the agreement was signed betweeen Pakistani Prime Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, and the then Indian Prime Minister, Mrs Indira Gandhi.

An obvious answer to that is look at what is and has happened to the Pakistani people from the extremeists and their governments failure to eradicate them.

You have India, the US and others fighting them within their country to eradicate them. Then they turn around and car bomb, bomb and murder the Pakistanis on a daily basis.

And yet there are no doubt still ties while all of this goes on.

Its just amazing that country has not gone into full blown civil war.

The reason is that Pakistanis are too much socially integrated.

Tronic
11 Oct 13,, 22:10
" He proposed that India should reciprocate Pakistan’s suggestion of holding either a joint or an impartial investigation, preferably by the United Nations, into the LoC incidents."

Kayani made two proposals - a joint India-Pakistan investigation or an impartial (third party) led investigation.

You mean like the 26/11 attacks investigation? Why should India share any more intelligence with Pakistan and risk exposing it's covert HUMINT assets in your country, when those assets could be better used to fend off future attacks? IK Gujral did so in the '90s and Pakistan responded by betraying the man who decided to invest trust in Pakistan, so much so that his name is today sullied among Indian strategic circles. Investing trust in Pakistan seems like a bad investment. All your neighbours seem to think so. So does your ally, the US.

IMO, only way to proceed with peace is to keep the door for business and trade open, while keeping a strong vigil on security. If Pakistanis remain apprehensive in developing a mutually-reliant relationship in the business sphere, than obviously, talk of solving security issues is very far fetched.

Tronic
11 Oct 13,, 22:12
most important Such low quality rifle which over here people dont even use for personal conflict let alone fighting a well trained indian army

Atleast drop that... :rolleyes:

You have yet to show me these "low quality rifles"...

Firestorm
11 Oct 13,, 22:18
Sorry to confuse the issue I meant in 1971 when the agreement was signed betweeen Pakistani Prime Minister, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, and the then Indian Prime Minister, Mrs Indira Gandhi.

The terrorists did not exist back then. They are a product of the 80's. The ISI was neck deep in arming and training Afghan mujahideen and they tried to do the same thing in Kashmir. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.



An obvious answer to that is look at what is and has happened to the Pakistani people from the extremeists and their governments failure to eradicate them.

You have India, the US and others fighting them within their country to eradicate them. Then they turn around and car bomb, bomb and murder the Pakistanis on a daily basis.

And yet there are no doubt still ties while all of this goes on.

Its just amazing that country has not gone into full blown civil war.

Ah, but there are "good" and "bad" terrorists. The good ones attack India and are to be supported. The bad ones attack pakistan. You have heard this in another context.

farhan_9909
11 Oct 13,, 22:21
Atleast drop that... :rolleyes:

You have yet to show me these "low quality rifles"...

Posted on Page 1-

farhan_9909
11 Oct 13,, 22:29
Would be Good If the accusation Are done by Foriegn ministry or anyone from the govt And not armed forces.But may be in India the armed forces officials are occasional govt officials aswell

Concerned over LoC violations, Kayani proposes impartial UN investigations – The Express Tribune (http://tribune.com.pk/story/616695/concerned-over-loc-violations-kayani-proposes-impratial-un-investigations/)




RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on Friday that the accusations made by the Indian military against Pakistan Army were unfortunate, unfounded and provocative, and that Pakistan’s restraint should not be exploited for levelling baseless allegations that harm prospects of peace.


According to a press release issued by Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), the comments of the Indian Army Chief alleging that Pakistan Army and Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) supported a recent militant insurgency in Keran sector of Indian administered Kashmir, were described by Kayani as unfortunate, unfounded and provocative.

The army chief said that he was concerned about the continued violations along the Line of Control from across the border. He proposed that India should reciprocate Pakistan’s suggestion of holding either a joint or an impartial investigation, preferably by the United Nations, into the LoC incidents.


“Pakistan Army was exercising restraint but the same should in no way be used as a pretext for leveling such baseless allegations that vitiate prospects of regional peace.”

Addressing a group of officers at General Headquarters, the COAS reiterated that the Pakistan Army was fully supportive of the peace process initiated by the government.

Agnostic Muslim
11 Oct 13,, 22:42
Let me get one thing clear. Are you saying no infiltration has occurred (mujahideen or otherwise) from the Pakistani side into the LOC side?
I am saying that there is no evidence that the Pakistani Army is involved in orchestrating these infiltration attempts - the Indian Express article however goes further and raises questions/doubts about the entire IA narrative of the alleged incident.

Agnostic Muslim
11 Oct 13,, 22:48
Its just amazing that country has not gone into full blown civil war.
A civil war generally requires two or more major factions (with serious ethnic, sectarian, ideological differences) in a country to engage in conflict - the TTP/AQ/Baloch terrorism in Pakistan is violence by small to medium loosely affiliated criminal enterprises. None of them, individually, are representative of any broad section of the population. In addition, as Farhan pointed out, and I argued with 1980s, the majority of Pakistanis have a strong 'Pakistani' identity.

Tronic
12 Oct 13,, 00:09
Posted on Page 1-

Assertions proved to be utter crap... You're the only one here who can claim to identify the make of those rifles from those pics.. It's absurd.

antimony
12 Oct 13,, 00:09
I am saying that there is no evidence that the Pakistani Army is involved in orchestrating these infiltration attempts - the Indian Express article however goes further and raises questions/doubts about the entire IA narrative of the alleged incident.

Stop twisting my question around. I did not ask about the PA. I asked a simple question. Do you think these infiltrators have come from the Pakistani side or not?

Agnostic Muslim
12 Oct 13,, 00:28
Do you think these infiltrators have come from the Pakistani side or not?
I don't know - all we have are the IA's claims regarding the alleged infiltration attempts so far.

SajeevJino
12 Oct 13,, 02:43
Stop twisting my question around. I did not ask about the PA. I asked a simple question. Do you think these infiltrators have come from the Pakistani side or not?


I don't know - all we have are the IA's claims regarding the alleged infiltration attempts so far.

Even a small kid will know the Answer who is the Infiltrators ..Where does they get Bullet Proof Jackets , where did they get these much of Ammo's

I can say these are all Pakistani Forces try to inflitrate and kill Top Indian Military leaders such as last time they kill a key Colonel in our side but this time their mission failed and stamped as a Terrorists Jumped from the Sky ..

antimony
12 Oct 13,, 04:16
I don't know - all we have are the IA's claims regarding the alleged infiltration attempts so far.

So basically nothing is happening at the LOC. The ceasefire is intact. Is that it?:rolleyes:

farhan_9909
12 Oct 13,, 08:03
Assertions proved to be utter crap... You're the only one here who can claim to identify the make of those rifles from those pics.. It's absurd.

Becuase your media has shown pics of Ak-74U which are striking similar with the darra made.

Possibly may be they had put the older pics or even wrong pics for a possible blame game

Officer of Engineers
12 Oct 13,, 08:21
This is a pic of the AKS-74u

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/_thumbs/Images/assault/as03/aks74u.jpg

Made by Kalashnikov, a well known and respectable arms manufacturer. It's not a firearm I would use pass 50 yards but I would have no hesitations to rely on it.

So, advise me. Why is the AKS-74u are poor and unreliable design?

farhan_9909
12 Oct 13,, 09:10
This is a pic of the AKS-74u

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/_thumbs/Images/assault/as03/aks74u.jpg

Made by Kalashnikov, a well known and respectable arms manufacturer. It's not a firearm I would use pass 50 yards but I would have no hesitations to rely on it.

So, advise me. Why is the AKS-74u are poor and unreliable design?

Made by the Original manufacturer or by any Other Big firm will have different quality than the other made in Darra adam khel markets

Officer of Engineers
12 Oct 13,, 09:21
So,by pics alone, you can tell that these were made in Pakistani village markets?

farhan_9909
12 Oct 13,, 09:25
So,by pics alone, you can tell that these were made in Pakistani village markets?

very much.as in the pics i posted in the first page.

Though the IA to the media has only officially Shown Ak 47..they are confused about ak-47 and ak74u.

Pakistan might even handover them Indian made INSAS but if Pak officially was involved in this.

Officer of Engineers
12 Oct 13,, 09:34
very much.as in the pics i posted in the first page.I have over 30 years experience with AKs and I can't tell who made what in your pics.

farhan_9909
12 Oct 13,, 09:40
I have over 30 years experience with AKs and I can't tell who made what in your pics.

Well I can only tell you whether the,The certain Ak is made in KPK markets or not.

Ofcourse even i cant tell the difference between international standard made Aks.

SajeevJino
12 Oct 13,, 10:53
So as of now AK 47 or AK 74 is the problem Not the Infiltration Isn't It

Agnostic Muslim
12 Oct 13,, 14:21
So basically nothing is happening at the LOC. The ceasefire is intact. Is that it?:rolleyes:
I don't know what is happening at the LoC - heck, even the IA and Indian media has had to backtrack on what it was claiming. A two week operation along the LoC with a allleged group of 30-40 infiltrators surrounded on three sides and not a single body is recovered. One account in the Indian media has quoted 'anonymous Indian Army officials' as suggesting that the even the 5 wounded Indian soldiers might be the result of 'friendly fire'. The only verified casualties (in terms of dead bodies) appear to have occurred elsewhere along the LoC, during much smaller infiltration attempts.

What do you think happened?

Tronic
12 Oct 13,, 16:14
Well I can only tell you whether the,The certain Ak is made in KPK markets or not.

Ofcourse even i cant tell the difference between international standard made Aks.

You really don't know when to drop a lie, do you? It could probably fly elsewhere but the problem with a military board is, most members here have experience with firearms themselves, either in the military or closely affiliated to them or as personal arms; so, it's not hard to see through your absurd claims. It's your own credibility taking a hit, the longer you stick with it.

Tronic
12 Oct 13,, 16:38
I don't know what is happening at the LoC - heck, even the IA and Indian media has had to backtrack on what it was claiming. A two week operation along the LoC with a allleged group of 30-40 infiltrators surrounded on three sides and not a single body is recovered. One account in the Indian media has quoted 'anonymous Indian Army officials' as suggesting that the even the 5 wounded Indian soldiers might be the result of 'friendly fire'. The only verified casualties (in terms of dead bodies) appear to have occurred elsewhere along the LoC, during much smaller infiltration attempts.

What do you think happened?

If the 5 wounded Indian soldiers are a result of "friendly fire", I'd like your story on the 7 dead tangos.. :rolleyes:


Lastly, I don't know exactly what happened but the story doing the rounds is that a unit left a gap while in unit/shift rotation (20 Kumaon was being replaced by 3/3 Gurkhas), observed that infiltrators had taken advantage of this lapse, and not knowing the exact number of infiltrators as they had left that area completely unobserved, sounded the alarm bells with exaggerated claims (Better safe than sorry?). A hunt for 30-40 claimed infiltrators ensued over 2 weeks but ended with only 7 dead tangos and the recovered haul of arms. Though cross-border firing and infiltration attempts from the Pakistani side are still underway and haven't abated: Army jawan killed in fresh firing in Keran sector (http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/JAndK/Army-jawan-killed-in-fresh-firing-in-Keran-sector/Article1-1133968.aspx)

farhan_9909
12 Oct 13,, 16:43
You really don't know when to drop a lie, do you? It could probably fly elsewhere but the problem with a military board is, most members here have experience with firearms themselves, either in the military or closely affiliated to them or as personal arms; so, it's not hard to see through your absurd claims. It's your own credibility taking a hit, the longer you stick with it.

Oh,Mr Tronic,Who are you to call me a liar??tell me?

Prove me wrong and only than you can call me a liar.

And My claims are not absurd.I still stand on my words.I can easily recoginize any aks made in Darra.

Dont be over smart with me next time.Because i cant tolerate indian calling me a liar without being proven wrong.So next time watch your mouth

farhan_9909
12 Oct 13,, 16:45
Well Certainly this ghost village claim has hit the moral of Indian army and mostly their credibility.
Even the Patriotic media and News agency like expressindia is trolling indian army as posted in the 2nd page

Tronic
12 Oct 13,, 16:55
Oh,Mr Tronic,Who are you to call me a liar??tell me?

Prove me wrong and only than you can call me a liar.

And My claims are not absurd.I still stand on my words.I can easily recoginize any aks made in Darra.

Dont be over smart with me next time.Because i cant tolerate indian calling me a liar without being proven wrong.So next time watch your mouth

I can't fix your pathological problem, mate. I can only just point it out. The onus is on you.

farhan_9909
12 Oct 13,, 18:20
I can't fix your pathological problem, mate. I can only just point it out. The onus is on you.

Well the Problem is with you Even though I am not expecting anything from pathological liars.Your calling someone a liar without proving him wrong

Fixing out is more of an bravery while just pointing out is more of an cowardness

Minskaya
12 Oct 13,, 18:42
Enough. I expect all of you to comport yourselves like officers and gentlemen.

antimony
12 Oct 13,, 19:16
I don't know what is happening at the LoC - heck, even the IA and Indian media has had to backtrack on what it was claiming. A two week operation along the LoC with a allleged group of 30-40 infiltrators surrounded on three sides and not a single body is recovered. One account in the Indian media has quoted 'anonymous Indian Army officials' as suggesting that the even the 5 wounded Indian soldiers might be the result of 'friendly fire'. The only verified casualties (in terms of dead bodies) appear to have occurred elsewhere along the LoC, during much smaller infiltration attempts.

What do you think happened?

So some infiltration happened elsewhere along the LOC, is that what you are saying?

Also, where is this account on friendly fire?

bolo121
12 Oct 13,, 19:38
Enough. I expect all of you to comport yourselves like officers and gentlemen.

Oh come on dont spoil the fun. Just think of it as a mud pie fight among kids

Tronic
12 Oct 13,, 19:47
Oh come on dont spoil the fun. Just think of it as a mud pie fight among kids

I'd rather not... It gets distasteful getting down to such a brainless level.

bolo121
12 Oct 13,, 20:00
I'd rather not... It gets distasteful getting down to such a brainless level.

India Pakistan perpetual squabbles are always at a brainless level by default.
They will always hate us and we will always hate them. Its completely pointless.
All of you are already at rock bottom

Tronic
12 Oct 13,, 20:46
India Pakistan perpetual squabbles are always at a brainless level by default.
They will always hate us and we will always hate them. Its completely pointless.
All of you are already at rock bottom

I don't hate "them". My closest friends are Pakistanis.

cirrrocco
13 Oct 13,, 03:03
Even a dumbest terrorist wont or Let suppose he was sent by Pak army would carry his CNIC with himself, or weapons market with Pakistan Name.

The letter part was very funny.

I hope they Know if ISI by Any mean was really to send a militant force across border into India.they are not this much dumb to give them their CNIC,letters and most important Such low quality rifle which over here people dont even use for personal conflict let alone fighting a well trained indian army

Farhan, if what you say above is true, then all the NLI "mujahideen" during Kargil are all dumb and should be disbanded.
I am sure when pervez mushi went across the border, he carried his ID as well or are you saying he was dumb if he carried his ID when he went across.

bolo121
13 Oct 13,, 05:06
I don't hate "them". My closest friends are Pakistanis.

How multicultural of you.
You are currently at a University in Canada right? I also got along fine with Pakistani fellow students back in the day.
But add the topics we are discussing to any conversations and very quickly all that aman gets strained.

Tronic
13 Oct 13,, 05:51
How multicultural of you.
You are currently at a University in Canada right? I also got along fine with Pakistani fellow students back in the day.

My Pakistani friends are not my fellow students. One has graduated (from a different university) and is working in the industry as an engineer, while others are in Med school in the US. My ex, who was also Pakistani, was also not a fellow student, but someone I met through a common friend.


But add the topics we are discussing to any conversations and very quickly all that aman gets strained.

Peace is strained even when I discuss politics with fellow Indians. Heck, just here at WAB, how many Indians do I manage to rile up every time I give my opinions on India's dirty politics?

That said, our political views, whatever little we discuss of them among our friend circle, mostly align. Where they don't, agree to disagree.

Discussing politics is usually not what I take into my everyday life. Not everybody is interested, so better to keep it here on WAB among the interested parties. I did invite one Pakistani friend onto WAB a few years back. He was quite indifferent to the Indo-Pak arguments here and left after a post or two.

anil
13 Oct 13,, 06:19
Again with the india-pakistan nonsense? http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/smilies/ashamed0005.gif

What I'd personally like is a complete disconnection of cultural, lingual and economic relations between indians and pakistanis. Even hindi movies and TV serials are a problem because they attract pakistanis on the indian side. Just one look at the youtube comments on a hindi song makes me vomit. You don't see that crap on songs like yere yere (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXhdcynqWN4) or apsara aali (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_sCh4kx-Lk) or nakka mukka because non-indians would not understand these languages.

I so hope that the south indian entertainment industry takes over entire india. If bollywood can change their lingua franca to tamil or telugu, half of all india-pakistan problems would be over.

ps: btw I just realised that many indian members on this board are from the minority community(non-hindus). Am I right?

lemontree
13 Oct 13,, 16:06
Deleated

Firestorm
14 Oct 13,, 06:40
Peace is strained even when I discuss politics with fellow Indians. Heck, just here at WAB, how many Indians do I manage to rile up every time I give my opinions on India's dirty politics?

Disagreeing about dirty political leaders and parties is one thing. Our "disagreements" with Pakistan and its people, are way more serious and have life threatening consequences. Indian expats "getting along" with Pakistani ones means absolutely nothing. Kashmir and the LoC aren't going to get any safer because Indians and Pakistanis in the US and Canada "get along". When two people meet face to face they always try to be civil and polite unless they are a-holes. They will try to be PC and not say exactly what's on their mind in the interests of maintaining propriety and decorum. There are no such inhibitions in online world. People can speak their mind. And the results are there to see.

Tronic
14 Oct 13,, 06:51
Disagreeing about dirty political leaders and parties is one thing. Our "disagreements" with Pakistan and its people, are way more serious and have life threatening consequences. Indian expats "getting along" with Pakistani ones means absolutely nothing. Kashmir and the LoC aren't going to get any safer because Indians and Pakistanis in the US and Canada "get along".

Except for the fact that there are countless number of Pakistanis living in India and making a living from Bollywood, cricket anchoring, or the music industry. Ask anil. :biggrin:

I think holding personal grudges against an entire people is beyond ridiculous. Ask AM and he'll tell you all about those traitorous "liberal extremist pro-India" Pakistanis. Those feelings are replicated by our own AMs on this side of the border.


When two people meet face to face they always try to be civil and polite unless they are a-holes. They will try to be PC and not say exactly what's on their mind in the interests of maintaining propriety and decorum. There are no such inhibitions in online world. People can speak their mind. And the results are there to see.

You also have to understand that most people are not so politically inclined as you, and do not really care about the political happenings around them.

Secondly, I don't understand why one has to take the politics personally. As much as I disagree with AM or farhan over their views, I'd still treat them to a drink (or something more Halal), if I ever was to cross paths with them in the real world. I've got nothing personal against them at all.

Firestorm
14 Oct 13,, 07:12
Except for the fact that there are countless number of Pakistanis living in India and making a living from Bollywood, cricket anchoring, or the music industry. Ask anil. :biggrin:

Proving my point? Those Pakistanis in India have had no effect on the issues between India and Pakistan. And yeah, I hope they leave after their Visa expires or apply for residency/citizenship if that is even allowed.


You also have to understand that most people are not so politically inclined as you, and do not really care about the political happenings around them.
Well if they were, I wouldn't have to visit online forums discuss politics now would I?



I think holding personal grudges against an entire people is beyond ridiculous. Ask AM and he'll tell you all about those traitorous "liberal extremist pro-India" Pakistanis. Those feelings are replicated by our own AMs on this side of the border.

Secondly, I don't understand why one has to take the politics personally. As much as I disagree with AM or farhan over their views, I'd still treat them to a drink (or something more Halal), if I ever was to cross paths with them in the real world. I've got nothing personal against them at all.
Yup, and Indian and Pakistani soldiers may share drinks as well if they happen to meet socially, and then shoot at each other if they meet on the battlefield. That is nothing personal either. What's the point?

All I'm saying was, in simple terms, me disagreeing with you about Indian politics or even our response to Pakistan, is completely different than me arguing with AM. I'm pretty much accusing his country of trying to kill me, my family and my countrymen and trying to cover it up, if you get down to the basics.

Tronic
14 Oct 13,, 07:54
Proving my point? Those Pakistanis in India have had no effect on the issues between India and Pakistan. And yeah, I hope they leave after their Visa expires or apply for residency/citizenship if that is even allowed.

You think the Pakistanis you interact with here have an influence over their country's foreign policy? I'm completely lost as to what you're trying to say.


Yup, and Indian and Pakistani soldiers may share drinks as well if they happen to meet socially, and then shoot at each other if they meet on the battlefield. That is nothing personal either. What's the point?

Where's the parallel between you and soldiers on a battlefield?


All I'm saying was, in simple terms, me disagreeing with you about Indian politics or even our response to Pakistan, is completely different than me arguing with AM. I'm pretty much accusing his country of trying to kill me, my family and my countrymen and trying to cover it up, if you get down to the basics.

I don't know.. I've banged my head over the issues pertaining to the Punjab insurgency and other sensitive topics where the safety of me, my family and my countrymen was also in question, if you get down to the basics... ;)


And do note; my statements were in response to an initial assertion my a member that Indian-Pakistani squabbles should be "brainless by default" and the "fun" should be allowed to continue. So if you're picking out a statement of mines to reply to, please do keep in mind the context.

Agnostic Muslim
14 Oct 13,, 14:17
As much as I disagree with AM or farhan over their views, I'd still treat them to a drink (or something more Halal), if I ever was to cross paths with them in the real world.
White Russian with Grey Goose please :D - and I absolutely agree with the part about being able to 'set political/geo-political differences aside' and still get along. If there was ever a 'WAB get-together', I'd attend (if possible) despite the fact that I have had many heated arguments with many of the members on this board.

The one part of your post that I disagree with is your suggestion that I label certain Pakistanis 'liberal extremists' for being 'pro-India' (and by that I assume you mean to suggest 'pro-peace with India'). My problem with such Pakistanis is not that they support peace with India, but their rather nasty and (at times) irrational criticism of the military establishment. That is starting to change however, as the Army continues to (overtly at least) refrain from interfering in politics and one democratically elected government has transitioned to another. For example, I am actually beginning to enjoy reading Kamran Shafi's articles now, because they have not been as 'Pakistan Army obsessed' since the transition, choosing to now focus equally on the political leadership for not pursuing the correct policies when it comes to dealing with terrorism and extremism.

Firestorm
14 Oct 13,, 19:36
Tronic, I think we are talking past each other. I'll drop it. We are seriously OT anyway.

Tronic
15 Oct 13,, 05:25
White Russian with Grey Goose please :D - and I absolutely agree with the part about being able to 'set political/geo-political differences aside' and still get along. If there was ever a 'WAB get-together', I'd attend (if possible) despite the fact that I have had many heated arguments with many of the members on this board.

Heh, seems like the one thing we can agree on is our vodka! ;) :tankie:



The one part of your post that I disagree with is your suggestion that I label certain Pakistanis 'liberal extremists' for being 'pro-India' (and by that I assume you mean to suggest 'pro-peace with India'). My problem with such Pakistanis is not that they support peace with India, but their rather nasty and (at times) irrational criticism of the military establishment. That is starting to change however, as the Army continues to (overtly at least) refrain from interfering in politics and one democratically elected government has transitioned to another. For example, I am actually beginning to enjoy reading Kamran Shafi's articles now, because they have not been as 'Pakistan Army obsessed' since the transition, choosing to now focus equally on the political leadership for not pursuing the correct policies when it comes to dealing with terrorism and extremism.

Criticizing the military establishment shouldn't make one a "liberal extremist". In an open society, an establishment's policies should be open to criticism and scrutiny. Rather than setting limits to the level a government or an institution can be criticized before someone gets branded an "extremist", there should be an open dialogue. A dialogue which Pakistanis do support in India, but not within their own country. Many of India's leftist intellectuals and academia who are harshly critical of Indian policies are brandished and quoted for examples, by Pakistanis, of Indian misdoings. However, when it comes to the section of Pakistani intellectuals who are critical of the Pakistani establishment, long dominated by the Pakistani army, they are quick to be labelled as liberal extremists, or RAW/CIA agents. Pakistani civil institutions are still in their infancy, and the Pak army is still the grand dady of the Pakistani establishment. You expect perceptions of the Pak army to change overnight because a civilian government has lasted in power for merely half a decade. Reality is, it will take decades of un-interrupted civilian rule before the semblance of accountability transfers over to the civilian rulers from the Pakistani army.

Agnostic Muslim
15 Oct 13,, 13:03
Criticizing the military establishment shouldn't make one a "liberal extremist".
Balanced and rational criticism is absolutely justified - my issue is with authors that would go after the Army for 'excesses in Balochistan' (for example) while completely ignoring the actions of terrorist/separatist groups operating in Balochistan, and the role of the provincial and federal political class in exacerbating the problems of the province. The approach of these 'liberal extremists' is the mirror image of the 'conservative extremists' such as Hamid Mir. People like Hamid Mir go after the Army for 'killing our own countrymen and Muslim Pashtun brothers' (when criticizing the military operations against the Taliban for example), and for the most part completely ignore the actions of the Taliban (and the political class).

Should the Army be criticized for overthrowing governments and acting without authorization from an elected government? Absolutely.

Should it be criticized for 'human rights violations' that have occurred in its campaigns against terrorism in FATA and Balochistan? Absolutely, but that criticism needs to be tempered by an acknowledgment of the fact that the Army is a blunt instrument that will cause collateral damage and that the best approach here is not to expect the Army to become a 'police force' (trying to turn a hammer into a scalpel) but to develop civilian institutions so that they can take over the role of the Army. In the case of people I like to call 'liberal/conservative extremists', I see a lot of hand wringing over the tactics used by the Army, and almost no recognition of the fact that the Army is not the proper tool to be using in the first place.

antimony
15 Oct 13,, 17:50
Our "disagreements" with Pakistan and its people, are way more serious and have life threatening consequences. Indian expats "getting along" with Pakistani ones means absolutely nothing.

Disagree, it shows there is no lasting animosity between the two groups, outside of the localized south asian conflicts, and in fact a lot of commonalities



Kashmir and the LoC aren't going to get any safer because Indians and Pakistanis in the US and Canada "get along". When two people meet face to face they always try to be civil and polite unless they are a-holes. They will try to be PC and not say exactly what's on their mind in the interests of maintaining propriety and decorum. There are no such inhibitions in online world. People can speak their mind. And the results are there to see.

Propriety and decorum need to work for countries too. My knee jerk reaction is to agree with you that we should absolutely cease any contact, but I have moved away from that. If you think about it, there are tremendous advantages to the two countries working together, from trading to central Asian gas to equitable water sharing arrangements. In fact, if you think about it, it is in the interest of Pakistan to start discussions ASAP. India right now holds the cards - Kashmir, Sir Creek, Water sharing, Siachen. It is in India's interests to hold the status quo, in Pakistan's interest to have a dialogue and change the status quo by offering something, sch as trading rights. There is a thought in Pakistan's thinking circles (which I think is completely loony) that the recent LOC and other events may be false flag operations, to prevent India from having a softer stance towards Pakistan.

In other words, India should be open to talk, and be open to hearing if Pakistan is willing to offer anything.

antimony
15 Oct 13,, 17:53
Should it be criticized for 'human rights violations' that have occurred in its campaigns against terrorism in FATA and Balochistan? Absolutely, but that criticism needs to be tempered by an acknowledgment of the fact that the Army is a blunt instrument that will cause collateral damage and that the best approach here is not to expect the Army to become a 'police force' (trying to turn a hammer into a scalpel) but to develop civilian institutions so that they can take over the role of the Army. In the case of people I like to call 'liberal/conservative extremists', I see a lot of hand wringing over the tactics used by the Army, and almost no recognition of the fact that the Army is not the proper tool to be using in the first place.

Wonderful analysis. Why is this thought not consistently applied to Kashmir also? Why are our COIN ops in Kashmir termed as an exercise in rape, pillage and murder while your FATA/ Baloch ops get a gloss over?

lemontree
15 Oct 13,, 18:19
In other words, India should be open to talk, and be open to hearing if Pakistan is willing to offer anything.

That is one view, the other view is no talks and cut off all diplomatic links,....be "firm" with the Hurriyat.
We have nothing to loose anyway.

Firestorm
15 Oct 13,, 19:31
Disagree, it shows there is no lasting animosity between the two groups, outside of the localized south asian conflicts, and in fact a lot of commonalities

The commonalities are meaningless. You can have the same taste in music and food as another person and still wish them ill if you covet the same territory that they do.



Propriety and decorum need to work for countries too. My knee jerk reaction is to agree with you that we should absolutely cease any contact, but I have moved away from that. If you think about it, there are tremendous advantages to the two countries working together, from trading to central Asian gas to equitable water sharing arrangements.
The advantages will only be realized after there is peace and all the issues are solved. What exactly is India's position? Successive governments have maintained the official position that the Pakistani state (or at least their army) is involved in training terrorists who attack India. If that is so, how can we get into business with people who are trying to kill us? That is absurd.



In fact, if you think about it, it is in the interest of Pakistan to start discussions ASAP. India right now holds the cards - Kashmir, Sir Creek, Water sharing, Siachen. It is in India's interests to hold the status quo, in Pakistan's interest to have a dialogue and change the status quo by offering something, sch as trading rights. There is a thought in Pakistan's thinking circles (which I think is completely loony) that the recent LOC and other events may be false flag operations, to prevent India from having a softer stance towards Pakistan.

Trading rights? Read up about MFN status. Especially the date on which India granted it to Pakistan and the date on which they granted it to us (hint: they haven't). Again, I fail to see how these trading rights are supposed to help India with our terrorism problem. Pakistan denies it is involved. They will continue to deny it even after trade between the two countries has doubled or tripled.


In other words, India should be open to talk, and be open to hearing if Pakistan is willing to offer anything.
But India has always been open to talk. Why is it that when a new round of dialogue starts, all memory of all previous futile attempts is wiped out from our minds?

farhan_9909
15 Oct 13,, 20:11
Wonderful analysis. Why is this thought not consistently applied to Kashmir also? Why are our COIN ops in Kashmir termed as an exercise in rape, pillage and murder while your FATA/ Baloch ops get a gloss over?

2 reasons.

1-Kashmir region is a internationally recoginized disputed territory While FATA not.
2-Yes its true in the late 60's India and pakistan signed a agreement as both the countries would have right to raise concern over the minorities in each country.

farhan_9909
15 Oct 13,, 20:17
The best possible solution for both the countries is to cease all kind of relations,Derecoginize each other and shut down the borders.Let say till 2040-50.Its much better to have No relation(India-Pak trade is only 2-3billion dollars) than having relation which usually end up in wars.

About MFN status.

Giving MFN status to India is Good and Bad both for Pakistan.
Pakistan will be under serious trade deficiet with India.India export to Pakistan may cross 10-15billion dollars within 5 years And pakistan no more than 2-3billion dollars forcing Pakistan to become something like bangladesh for India.This aggressive attitude of Pakistan with India will be shut down forever.Which the Authorities in pakistan never want to happen.

Blademaster
15 Oct 13,, 20:17
2 reasons.

1-Kashmir region is a internationally recoginized disputed territory While FATA not. - FALSE! The rest of the world have accepted that the territory belongs to India
2-Yes its true in the late 60's India and pakistan signed a agreement as both the countries would have right to raise concern over the minorities in each country. FALSE! The Simla Agreement takes precedence.

See in bold. If number 2 was correct, then India would have raise hell over the minorities' treatment in Pakistan long time ago. You are engaging in the same behavior that Agnostic Muslim is engaging in.

farhan_9909
15 Oct 13,, 20:31
See in bold. If number 2 was correct, then India would have raise hell over the minorities' treatment in Pakistan long time ago. You are engaging in the same behavior that Agnostic Muslim is engaging in.

I would like to know when by the rest of the world Kashmir is considered A part of india When India only control 43% of kashmir(37% with Pakistan and 20% with China considering wiki as a source)

And here is the Official agreement in detail.I was wrong the agreement rather was signed in 1950 though

AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENTS OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN REGARDING SECURITY AND RIGHTS OF MINORITIES (NEHRU-LIAQUAT AGREEMENT) [1950] INTSer 9 (http://www.commonlii.org/in/other/treaties/INTSer/1950/9.html)


New Delhi,
8 April 1950

A. The Governments of India and Pakistan solemnly agree that each shall ensure, to the minorities throughout its territory, complete equality of citizenship, irrespective of religion, a full sense of security in respect of life, culture, property and personal honour, freedom of movement within each country and freedom of occupation, speech and worship, subject to law and morality. Members of the minorities shall have equal opportunity with members of the majority community to participate in the public life of their country, to hold political or other office, and to serve in their country's civil and armed forces.

Firestorm
15 Oct 13,, 20:35
^^That was because of the refugees after the partition. And where does it say anything about raising concerns about minorities in each others countries? It only says that each government should ensure rights of minorities in their own country. If you are really concerned about minorities, start with the Ahmedis. You guys had them constitutionally declared non-Muslims and they have been persecuted ever since.

farhan_9909
15 Oct 13,, 20:44
^^That was because of the refugees after the partition. And where does it say anything about raising concerns about minorities in each others countries? It only says that each government should ensure rights of minorities in their own country. If you are really concerned about minorities, start with the Ahmedis. You guys had them constitutionally declared non-Muslims and they have been persecuted ever since.

you and me cant start this concern debate on any forum.Neither we have the authority.Only the Govt of Each other country can.

About Ahmadi or any other Pakistani community.They are targetted by Terrorists Not the govt/establishment.Terrorist usually hit the minority as they are the soft target and create alot of media sensation.

Well India is any time open to discuss the situation of minority With pakistan.

Firestorm
15 Oct 13,, 21:24
I'll make it simple for you

This is what you said:

Yes its true in the late 60's India and pakistan signed a agreement as both the countries would have right to raise concern over the minorities in each country.

This is what the Nehru-Liaquat pact says:

Both Governments wish to emphasise that the allegiance and loyalty of the minorities is to the State of which they are citizens, and that it is to the Government of their own State that they should look for the redress of their grievances.

Nowhere does it give either government the "right" to raise concern about minorities in the other country. They may do so of course if they want to but there is no pact between the two countries which gives them a "right" to do so.

Firestorm
15 Oct 13,, 21:26
About Ahmadi or any other Pakistani community.They are targetted by Terrorists Not the govt/establishment.Terrorist usually hit the minority as they are the soft target and create alot of media sensation.
I'm not talking about terrorists. Were the amendments to the Pakistani constitution that made it a punishable offense for an Ahmedi to call himself a Muslim carried out by terrorists?

Look at the changes to section 298B and C of the Penal code made in 1984:

http://www.thepersecution.org/50years/paklaw.html

It makes it illegal for Ahmedis to propagate their faith or behave like a Muslim too. The terrorists are just ahead of the curve.

cataphract
15 Oct 13,, 21:50
About Ahmadi or any other Pakistani community.They are targetted by Terrorists Not the govt/establishment.Terrorist usually hit the minority as they are the soft target and create alot of media sensation.



Sorry, that's not true at all. The Ahmadis have been targetted by the Pakistani government/establishment since the 70s. Check the declaration you have to sign on to get a Pakistani passport.

Agnostic Muslim
15 Oct 13,, 21:51
Why are our COIN ops in Kashmir termed as an exercise in rape, pillage and murder while your FATA/ Baloch ops get a gloss over?
'Raping, pillaging and the deliberate murder of innocents' does not qualify as 'collateral damage' - those are criminal acts committed deliberately.

That said, I don't really remember the last time I got into a 'Kashmir argument involving rape, pillage and murder by the Indian Army' - what was the context of my comments?

cataphract
15 Oct 13,, 22:09
2 reasons.

1-Kashmir region is a internationally recoginized disputed territory While FATA not.

The international status of Kashmir is irrelevant, and a weak excuse bandied about by Pakistanis. If the so-called atrocities in Kashmir were true, no one would care about Kashmir's status. Saddam's atrocities in Kurdistan, the Rwandan genocide, Darfur, etc were all condemned globally, without any regard to the legal status of the territories involved. Pakistan has tried to publicise the "plight" of the Kashmiries and failed, simply because the "plight" does not exist.

antimony
15 Oct 13,, 22:51
2 reasons.

1-Kashmir region is a internationally recoginized disputed territory While FATA not.


Irrelevant

Either there is HR violations in both places or there is not. We need to be consistent regardless of status.

Also, we do not the UN resolution. It is under chapter Vii, not like there is anything you can do about it. In other words, we get to keep status quo

antimony
15 Oct 13,, 22:52
'Raping, pillaging and the deliberate murder of innocents' does not qualify as 'collateral damage' - those are criminal acts committed deliberately.

That said, I don't really remember the last time I got into a 'Kashmir argument involving rape, pillage and murder by the Indian Army' - what was the context of my comments?

Why is the narrative different in the first place? Why is it "rape, pillage and murder" for us and "collateral damage for you?

I am not necessarily pointing at you, but at your beghairat brigade back home. And don't come and tell me that we have those loons too. We do, but they have not tasted power. Your loons have.

antimony
15 Oct 13,, 23:11
I would like to know when by the rest of the world Kashmir is considered A part of india When India only control 43% of kashmir(37% with Pakistan and 20% with China considering wiki as a source)

And here is the Official agreement in detail.I was wrong the agreement rather was signed in 1950 though

AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENTS OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN REGARDING SECURITY AND RIGHTS OF MINORITIES (NEHRU-LIAQUAT AGREEMENT) [1950] INTSer 9 (http://www.commonlii.org/in/other/treaties/INTSer/1950/9.html)

Our minorities get better rights than our majority. this is stupid, as most of these "rights" are the right for their religious leaders to pass bizarre religious injunction (girls getting marries at 15 years, 4 wives, teen talaq)

what about you?

antimony
15 Oct 13,, 23:14
Trading rights? Read up about MFN status. Especially the date on which India granted it to Pakistan and the date on which they granted it to us (hint: they haven't). Again, I fail to see how these trading rights are supposed to help India with our terrorism problem. Pakistan denies it is involved. They will continue to deny it even after trade between the two countries has doubled or tripled.

I am quite aware of this, thank you. I am also aware that our MFN statu that we have granted them does not mean much once you factor in the non tariff barriers.

That said, opening up trade is to our benefit. right now, we cannot sell them many goods directly. We have a lot of ways to make money off of each other.

antimony
15 Oct 13,, 23:17
That is one view, the other view is no talks and cut off all diplomatic links,....be "firm" with the Hurriyat.
We have nothing to loose anyway.

Captain, that is indeed my knee jerk reaction.

However, consider this. We have many things they have (Siachen, Sir Creek etc., water ). They have some things that we have (a bunch of terr bastards, access to Central Asian energy sources). Can we trade?

you would see that the things we have are far more important to them that what they have for us. Hence, all the more reasons for us to be ready to talk.

Firestorm
16 Oct 13,, 00:27
Captain, that is indeed my knee jerk reaction.

However, consider this. We have many things they have (Siachen, Sir Creek etc., water ). They have some things that we have (a bunch of terr bastards, access to Central Asian energy sources). Can we trade?

You are suggesting we trade territory and water rights in lieu of Pakistan stopping terrorism? :wors:

antimony
16 Oct 13,, 00:40
You are suggesting we trade territory and water rights in lieu of Pakistan stopping terrorism? :wors:

No. Terrorism cannot be tied to anything commercial. Screws need to be tightened now to let that not affect us. I am suggesting we leverage this to get to energy sources and trade.

Mushy had suggested this and we refused. However, safeguards can be built so that if they squeeze down, we squeeze down too. With modern rech, you can track activity on these pipelines on each cm of the road. If one side messes with services, then actions can be taken.


For e.g., if India gets gas from the TAPI pipeline, and if Pakistan tries anything funny, their gas gets squeezed out too. Now put this into the agreement so there is no ambiguity

Firestorm
16 Oct 13,, 00:44
No. They have already dialled that down since 2003. Crews need to be tightened now to le tthat not affect us. I am suggesting we leverage this to get to energy sources.

Leverage is a fancy word for give up here. Do we need Central Asian gas so much that we are willing to give up Siachen/Sir Creek for it and gamble on a pipeline whose security is questionable? Does the Indian government even have the authority to do that? And what about terrorism, because I'm not sure what you mean by dialed down here.

Edit: Ok, you edited your previous post. I'll address that in the next one.

antimony
16 Oct 13,, 00:59
Leverage is a fancy word for give up here. Do we need Central Asian gas so much that we are willing to give up Siachen/Sir Creek for it and gamble on a pipeline whose security is questionable? Does the Indian government even have the authority to do that? And what about terrorism, because I'm not sure what you mean by dialed down here.

Edit: Ok, you edited your previous post. I'll address that in the next one.

right now Sir Creek is in limbo. I would look at dialogue on that to develop that economically. Status quo on that is hurting them, but is not benefiting us.

Firestorm
16 Oct 13,, 01:00
No. Terrorism cannot be tied to anything commercial. Screws need to be tightened now to let that not affect us. I am suggesting we leverage this to get to energy sources and trade.

So the talks are useless for resolving our No. 1 issue (from india's viewpoint) viz. terrorism. We have nothing to leverage there.



Mushy had suggested this and we refused. However, safeguards can be built so that if they squeeze down, we squeeze down too. With modern rech, you can track activity on these pipelines on each cm of the road. If one side messes with services, then actions can be taken.

For e.g., if India gets gas from the TAPI pipeline, and if Pakistan tries anything funny, their gas gets squeezed out too. Now put this into the agreement so there is no ambiguity
In times of war, "agreements" aren't worth the paper they are written on. Since we'll be "downstream" in the pipeline, so to speak, we cannot squeeze the gas flowing into Pakistan. I do not know of any tech that will allow us to do this. I am still not comfortable with the idea of giving up territory for this gas. Have we exhausted all other avenues? Is the situation really so dire?

antimony
16 Oct 13,, 01:13
So the talks are useless for resolving our No. 1 issue (from india's viewpoint) viz. terrorism. We have nothing to leverage there.


In times of war, "agreements" aren't worth the paper they are written on. Since we'll be "downstream" in the pipeline, so to speak, we cannot squeeze the gas flowing into Pakistan. I do not know of any tech that will allow us to do this. I am still not comfortable with the idea of giving up territory for this gas. Have we exhausted all other avenues? Is the situation really so dire?

We will not be squeezing the pipeline, the supplier (Turkmenistan, Iran) will. Legal and technical mechanisms exist for this. Mani Iyer had gone into this, based on some models in other places.

It is not about exhausting avenues or dire situations. It is about thinking for the future.

Also, what territory are we giving up? to whom?

Tronic
19 Oct 13,, 08:38
Balanced and rational criticism is absolutely justified -

This one line of yours pretty much speaks for itself.

You are deciding what is "balanced and rational", and than going on to attack the messengers.


my issue is with authors that would go after the Army for 'excesses in Balochistan' (for example) while completely ignoring the actions of terrorist/separatist groups operating in Balochistan, and the role of the provincial and federal political class in exacerbating the problems of the province.

Those Pakistani intellectuals criticize PA because they still see the Pakistani administration as the legitimate power in Balochistan. Ironical that you would want the Pakistani establishment to be held to the same standard as the separatists or "terrorists" in your words.



The approach of these 'liberal extremists' is the mirror image of the 'conservative extremists' such as Hamid Mir. People like Hamid Mir go after the Army for 'killing our own countrymen and Muslim Pashtun brothers' (when criticizing the military operations against the Taliban for example), and for the most part completely ignore the actions of the Taliban (and the political class).

Actually, even the most liberal Pakistani intellectual, or as you would like "liberal extremist", would sit on the conservative spectrum in India, so your usage of the term "liberal extremist" continues to leave me astonished, to say the least.



Should it be criticized for 'human rights violations' that have occurred in its campaigns against terrorism in FATA and Balochistan? Absolutely, but that criticism needs to be tempered by an acknowledgment of the fact that the Army is a blunt instrument that will cause collateral damage

I totally disagree, as I also have with Indian policies in the past, because the safety of every single resident of the country is the responsibility of the government, so using artillery shells or gunships to target militant held villages dents the legitimacy of the Pakistani establishment.

I will also take this opportunity to wonder out loud why this same 'temperament' is not shown from your side to the Indian forces battling separatists on this side of the border. :tongue:



and that the best approach here is not to expect the Army to become a 'police force' (trying to turn a hammer into a scalpel) but to develop civilian institutions so that they can take over the role of the Army. In the case of people I like to call 'liberal/conservative extremists', I see a lot of hand wringing over the tactics used by the Army, and almost no recognition of the fact that the Army is not the proper tool to be using in the first place.

It doesn't make their criticism unfair. Pull back the army and build up the police force. Afterall, despite a falling budget due to massive debt, the Pakistani army still seems to be getting a boost in it's spending every year. Spend that money on the police instead. But I'm willing to bet that the first Pakistani intellectual to propose giving the money to the Police rather than the army would be just another traitorous "liberal extremist". ;)

Blademaster
19 Oct 13,, 16:21
right now Sir Creek is in limbo. I would look at dialogue on that to develop that economically. Status quo on that is hurting them, but is not benefiting us.

I don't care but we are not giving up one inch ever.

lemontree
20 Oct 13,, 17:48
Captain, that is indeed my knee jerk reaction.
Why knee jerk?....there is nothing to gain from talks.

Consider this:-
1947 - Pakistan used the Waziri Pashtuns to invade Kashmir. We reacted.
1965 - Pakistan again launched Op Gibralter and Op Grand Slam and we again reacted.
1971 - Was when we were proactive.
1989 - Anti-Indian jihadis launched in Kashmir after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. We have only reacted within Indian Kashmir.
They have a parliamentary ordinance that funds this terror machine.
1999 - Kargil. We only reacted.

What do you what to talk to a nation whose successive generations have only waged war with us?



However, consider this. We have many things they have (Siachen, Sir Creek etc., water ). They have some things that we have (a bunch of terr bastards, access to Central Asian energy sources). Can we trade?
These are non negotiable. No trade mate.

Firestorm
24 Oct 13,, 07:54
Wonderful article by Lt.Gen Syed Ata Hasnain regarding the Keran incident (and others which keep happening), and the media reports regarding the same. He goes into great details about COIN tactics on the LoC and clears up a lot of misconceptions that many of us (including myself) were under. Lt.gen Hasnain commanded the Srinagar based XV Corps before he retired. I'm not highlighting anything. The whole article needs to be read in detail.

To strike the right balance - The Hindu (http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/to-strike-the-right-balance/article5265660.ece)



There are lessons for the media and the Army in the reporting and dispensing of information on the Keran operations

Pakistan has upped the ante along the Line of Control (LoC) and the international border in the Jammu sector, and public and media interest in the operations in the Keran sector continues. Despite the Army’s statements and clarifications, there is still some unhappiness at the highest levels. The situation demands greater clarity from those who know the ground and the dynamics and can relate it to the larger issues concerning the position in that State.

INFILTRATION AND INTELLIGENCE

The first of the questions. The Army said it had intelligence on a possible attempt at infiltration and was prepared. So how did a large group manage to come in, and from multiple points? The answer is quite simple. Intelligence does not always mean the specifics to an area; intelligence on the likelihood of an infiltration is mostly generic, remaining as such almost through the campaigning season. An earlier article, “An ambitious ploy in the heights” (Op-Ed, October 9, 2013), explained that Shalabatu lies ahead of the LoC fence in a treacherous forested area that has only a few Army posts, and to deploy soldiers in this area would mean having an additional unit. This has been the situation in the past too, and any attempt by terrorists to establish bases to infiltrate across the fence has been thwarted with high-trajectory and airburst ammunition. It is worth remembering that there is no such thing as “Zero Infiltration”; this is not terrain in which it can ever be guaranteed even with the presence of force multipliers such as thermal imagers and surveillance radars. Any further increase in the density of troops on the LoC fence, even in a priority area, would not result in the desired dividends.

Further, there is a vast difference between infiltration and the movement of terrorists into an area between the LoC and the LoC fence. Such movement makes no tactical gains and is eventually defeated. This has been a time-tested system through the adoption of the technique of the “limit of infiltration,” which remains the LoC fence. In some places and situations, the Army permits terrorists to breach the fence and then bottles them up between the LoC fence and our own counter-infiltration positions behind the fence. All this falls in the domain of minor tactics and deserves an informed analysis.

The next observation is the repeated weakness during times of handing/taking over between units and how information on turnover is leaked. Security of information in the digitised world is a matter of concern. The Indian Army always has accurate information about similar activities across the LoC. And there are enough sources in our rear areas, not to forget local porters from the border areas who return to their villages every night, who report things like the movement of our convoys, change of dependency in the administrative echelons and even about bank accounts. This information can only be limited but not denied, and we need to be clear and realistic on the limits of counter-intelligence. There have been two instances since 2011 when terrorists backed by Pakistan Army regulars struck under such circumstances — at Shalabatu in July 2011 and in August 2013 in the Sarla complex of the Poonch sector. The recent stand-off at Shalabatu is only an infiltration attempt backed by Pakistani regulars and is an annual ritual which the Army is always prepared for. No doubt, at the time of relieving units there are supposedly weak moments especially in command and control. However, there are strict and clear orders to that effect and command and control continues with the older unit till the last day. A system of on-the-job training exists where relieving troops join the outgoing troops in all operational activities.

Where did the bodies go? This is a question everyone seems to be asking. There probably wasn’t any at the outset and someone forgot to use that famous term which all intelligence agencies and experienced staff officers use — “uncorroborated and unconfirmed.” Had the information that was given first to the media been used with this prefix, there would not have been questioning at the culmination of the operations. More significant is the fact that someone used terminology in a general way, that is, “cordon” to explain the conduct of the operation ahead of the LoC fence in the area up to the LoC. Cordons are never laid in the vicinity of the LoC because these can at best be U-shaped, with the open-end towards the adversary across the LoC. This is because you don’t expose your men towards the LoC, especially when the LoC itself is not manned in that area. So, even if there were bodies it is very likely that they were carried away through the open-end of the U. Was it worth risking the lives of troops for the sake of a few dead terrorists? It was more important to keep the LoC fence strongly manned to prevent infiltration than employ these troops for search operations until reinforcements came in.

UNDERSTANDING OPERATIONS

Why was the Army taking so long and what was happening between October 2 and 8, the last contact at Shalabatu being on October 2? It needs a simple response, taking into consideration the basics of counter-terror operations. These operations are far from conventional operations where signals of success are given.

Here, there was actually no requirement to even mention the termination of operations; it was just a change in tack and of methodology. Counter-terror operations don’t just terminate in an area, they get transformed. Everyone here realised that there were linkages to the ongoing operations on the flanks. However, in this world of satellite-based maps and Google Earth, the media does need to spend time on research. Gujarthur is not 27 km from Shalabatu — that may be the distance by road. In such areas, tactical reactions are not along roads but along jungle and mountain tracks. In fact, Gujarthur, where the second contact with the terrorists took place, is on the edge of the crescent-shaped ridge line which dominates the Shalabatu bowl. There are linkages between all such operations and the Army needed to spend enough time on the alert in the extended area. What the unnecessary and completely uninformed media pressure achieved was a premature announcement of a termination of operations. There is no such black-and-white announcement in such operations; they just carry on, increasing and decreasing in intensity on the basis of intelligence, operations on the flanks, the degree of fatigue to troops and the limitations of logistics.

On vacation of posts, in all probability there is much confusion on the issue of posts along the LoC fence which are at best temporary positions and manned by even buddy teams at times. They are vacated and reoccupied on the basis of threat perceptions and intelligence and are never held permanently. There is no chance that a well-established post such as Kulhari could ever be vacated.

The media does a fine job of reporting inadequacies, but this should be done after proper research; hence the need for mediapersons to attend local training programmes. What the Army should resort to is the correct usage of terminology and the right balance in its media releases. Brawn and brains apart, semantics is a part of the LoC battle. This has not been realised for far too long.

(Lt. General Syed Ata Hasnain is a former Corps Commander of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps.)

antimony
24 Oct 13,, 19:19
Why knee jerk?....there is nothing to gain from talks.

Consider this:-
1947 - Pakistan used the Waziri Pashtuns to invade Kashmir. We reacted.
1965 - Pakistan again launched Op Gibralter and Op Grand Slam and we again reacted.
1971 - Was when we were proactive.
1989 - Anti-Indian jihadis launched in Kashmir after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. We have only reacted within Indian Kashmir.
They have a parliamentary ordinance that funds this terror machine.
1999 - Kargil. We only reacted.

What do you what to talk to a nation whose successive generations have only waged war with us?


Captain,

Yes, I understand all of this.

Now tell me, should we not look at our own interest while trying to resolve our problems - energy, water etc.?

First of all, there can be no dispute that terrorism needs to stop. In fact, I am in favour of military action each time some act of terrorism hapens, including cross border strikes by our side.

Now to the issues


Siachen : Pakistan bleeds more (in sustainability terms) than India. India bleeds less than she used to, especially with improved infrastructure on our side. Consequently, our stance has hardened. While previously we used to discuss withdrawal, now we are discussing delineation past NJ9842. I support holding onto this, till we can get some major level concession
Water : no quarter, there is already IWT. We also had the ICA rule in our favour this spring. Things are going to get tighter for them, then we can talk. Though I favour a continuous process of dialogue ;)
Sir Creek : I am confused by the opposition to this. We are sitting on a bed of oil and gas that we refuse to let each other explore. India had proposed an equitable energy sharing arrangement way back in 2006 and has given signals about opening up a dialogue again on this one. Just to clarify this issue, we claim that the Creek should be divided in the middle, they claim the whole of it. So an equitable arrangement is actually in our favour, and would also benefit them. so again, why do we have opposition to this issue?
Cross border trade: What exactly is being gained by opposition to this? Why would it be bad to buy their cement, in exchange for us sending them a bunch of our stuff? Why do we have to use Dubai as a mid point for trade between Bombay and Karachi. Can someone explain to me why that is a good thing, for us?
Power sharing arrangements : Earlier this year there were talks about selling power to Pakistan. That stopped. How does that benefit us? We lose revenue as well as some amount of leverage
Energy pipeline to get access to Central Asian and Iranian energy sources: As I have explained already, there is a lot to be gained from this, with appropriate systems in place.


In fact, being the zionist Hindoo Baniya that I am, I propose we go even more and think of opening up a trade and commerce corridor linking Central Asia/ Iran right up to Bangladesh/ Myanmar. Both of our countries would be minting money and generating jobs just allowing the use of land for the transit.



These are non negotiable. No trade mate.

Captain, our side has already agreed to have a dialogue on many of these issues, including Siachen and Sir Creek.

cataphract
24 Oct 13,, 21:09
Captain,

Yes, I understand all of this.

Now tell me, should we not look at our own interest while trying to resolve our problems - energy, water etc.?

First of all, there can be no dispute that terrorism needs to stop. In fact, I am in favour of military action each time some act of terrorism hapens, including cross border strikes by our side.

Now to the issues


Siachen : Pakistan bleeds more (in sustainability terms) than India. India bleeds less than she used to, especially with improved infrastructure on our side. Consequently, our stance has hardened. While previously we used to discuss withdrawal, now we are discussing delineation past NJ9842. I support holding onto this, till we can get some major level concession
Water : no quarter, there is already IWT. We also had the ICA rule in our favour this spring. Things are going to get tighter for them, then we can talk. Though I favour a continuous process of dialogue ;)
Sir Creek : I am confused by the opposition to this. We are sitting on a bed of oil and gas that we refuse to let each other explore. India had proposed an equitable energy sharing arrangement way back in 2006 and has given signals about opening up a dialogue again on this one. Just to clarify this issue, we claim that the Creek should be divided in the middle, they claim the whole of it. So an equitable arrangement is actually in our favour, and would also benefit them. so again, why do we have opposition to this issue?
Cross border trade: What exactly is being gained by opposition to this? Why would it be bad to buy their cement, in exchange for us sending them a bunch of our stuff? Why do we have to use Dubai as a mid point for trade between Bombay and Karachi. Can someone explain to me why that is a good thing, for us?
Power sharing arrangements : Earlier this year there were talks about selling power to Pakistan. That stopped. How does that benefit us? We lose revenue as well as some amount of leverage
Energy pipeline to get access to Central Asian and Iranian energy sources: As I have explained already, there is a lot to be gained from this, with appropriate systems in place.


In fact, being the zionist Hindoo Baniya that I am, I propose we go even more and think of opening up a trade and commerce corridor linking Central Asia/ Iran right up to Bangladesh/ Myanmar. Both of our countries would be minting money and generating jobs just allowing the use of land for the transit.



Captain, our side has already agreed to have a dialogue on many of these issues, including Siachen and Sir Creek.

These are all the things India wants. What is India willing to give up to get them? Trading territory is political suicide. What else can Pakistan want from us, besides territory, be it Sir Creek or Kashmir?

antimony
24 Oct 13,, 21:18
These are all the things India wants. What is India willing to give up to get them? Trading territory is political suicide. What else can Pakistan want from us, besides territory, be it Sir Creek or Kashmir?

You are missing the point:

Pakistan wants a change in the status quo, not India.

India is perfectly happy with the status quo on all of these. Pakistan is the one running after us. That is why you see Miansaab being so nice, because he understands where his country is headed.


Siachen : This is a cut for us, it is a gash for them. They need this resolved, not us
Water and power : India has a better hand in this. We have already built a number of projects and have several lined up, while Pakistan is being torn by internal disagreements between their provinces


See, all of these things are icing and cake for us, while it may soon become a daily bread issue for Pakistan. In conclusion, Pakistan eeds to play ball more than India does. So why not do a deal to our favour when we have the upper hand?

Also, where exactly are we losing territory?

If Siachen is delineated, then we gain. Pakistan loses the right to Siachen permanently, but they stop bleeding.
If there is equitable energy sharing over Sir Creek, the we gain. Pakistan loses on their demand over the whole creek, but gets to enjoy the energy

Oracle
26 Oct 13,, 17:00
A year old article by Minhaz Merchant, giving an insight of what should be done.

Make Pakistan pay (http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/headon/entry/make-pakistan-pay)

There is a way to tackle Pakistan’s decades-long undeclared war on India. It needn’t involve hot pursuit or surgical strikes across the LoC that could escalate into a broader conflict.

But it needn’t be the do-nothing-except-protest-officially approach the Indian government has adopted. There is a robust intermediate strategy available. Let’s break it down into several key steps.

First, we must continue to talk to Pakistan and engage with both its government and military. But India must set the agenda for that dialogue.

Action on the 26/11 trial in Pakistan is the first red marker. Four years after the Mumbai terror attack, we must set a timeframe for Pakistan to bring the perpetrators of that crime to book.

What if Pakistan does not? Consequences will follow. What those consequences are is dealt with later in this article.

Second, the brutal attack on the two Indian soldiers on Tuesday cannot go unpunished. India must present its evidence to the international community and seek sanctions against Pakistan if it does not put on trial and punish the men who killed and mutilated Lance Naik Hemraj and Lance Naik Sudhakar Singh in Jammu & Kashmir’s Mendhar sector.

The attackers were clearly members of the black-uniformed Pakistan Special Services Group (SSG) backed by the 29 Baloch regiment. The reason for the attack given by Pakitani sources is “retaliation” for the death of a Pakistani soldier on Sunday following cross-firing across the LoC.

If this is a justification for Tuesday’s brutal mutilation of two Indian soldiers, it must be dismissed with the contempt it deserves. The Geneva Convention sets clear rules for the conduct of war. What the Pakistani army engaged in was jihadism, not war.

Third, future dialogue, visas, people-to-people contacts and trade must be made conditional to Pakistan satisfying the stipulations laid out in the points above.

Pakistan is a serial offender. Its army, jihadis and mullahs form a troika sworn to enmity with India. Lower infiltration levels in the Kashmir Valley over the past two years are not due to a softening of this troika’s stand but because Pakistan’s military is pinned down fighting on its western border the terrorist-Frankenstein it created to destabliise India.

Indian peaceniks say there is a peace constituency building among the middle-class in Pakistan. But scratch beneath the surface – including Pakistani “liberal” media and civil society – and apologia for quasi-jihadism rapidly emerges. The veneer is wafer-thin. Much of it is expedient pretence.

Now the key question: what if Pakistan doesn’t play ball? What consequences can we impose on it? There are three.

1. Diplomatic. We can downgrade Pakistan to consular status, allowing its embassy limited diplomatic functionality till Rawalpindi GHQ delivers on 26/11 and the other terrorist-criminal acts it has perpetrated on India.

Pakistan posseses whatever international credibility it has by being associated with India. Downgrade that relationship and you downgrade Pakistan internationally. (Its relationship with the United States is merely that of a paid client-state.)

2. Economic: As with diplomatic relations, Pakistan needs India. India doesn’t need Pakistan. Pakistan’s GDP is barely 12% of India’s and growing at less than 2% a year. India’s trade volume (the sum of its global exports and imports) is $800 billion and dwarfs Pakistan’s. Make trade ties conditional to Pakistan delivering on terrorism.

3. Legal: India is unduly sensitive about “internationalising” its conflict with Pakistan. It should instead make it clear to the world that Pakistan’s repeated bluff about holding a plebiscite over Kashmir’s disputed status is just that – bluff.

All 1948 UNSC resolutions Pakistan constantly refers to – and wilfully distorts – actually demand that Pakistan vacate PoK before a plebiscite can even be considered in the whole of Jammu & Kashmir.

By taking Pakistan’s state terrorism to international fora India can legally shame-and-name a country globally accepted as the epicentre of terrorism – and make it pay damages and reparations. War crimes committed by Serb army generals and politicians in the Balkan conflicts of the 1990s have been tried and punishment handed out by an international war crimes tribunal in the Hague.

All of this does not mean we reduce Pakistan to a pariah state – it has achieved that without outside help. We must continue to talk, to engage and to trade – but with conditionalities.

You can’t change your neighbours. But you can change their behaviour. The United States has shown how to do it with Mexico’s drug mafia and Israel with its hostile Arab neighbours. So can India.

troung
26 Oct 13,, 18:23
Third, future dialogue, visas, people-to-people contacts and trade must be made conditional to Pakistan satisfying the stipulations laid out in the points above.

They aren't going to end terrorism for visas to India.


1. Diplomatic. We can downgrade Pakistan to consular status, allowing its embassy limited diplomatic functionality till Rawalpindi GHQ delivers on 26/11 and the other terrorist-criminal acts it has perpetrated on India.

Impotent gesture.


Pakistan posseses whatever international credibility it has by being associated with India.

No it doesn't. It does so by being a diseased crack whore.


2. Economic: As with diplomatic relations, Pakistan needs India. India doesn’t need Pakistan. Pakistan’s GDP is barely 12% of India’s and growing at less than 2% a year. India’s trade volume (the sum of its global exports and imports) is $800 billion and dwarfs Pakistan’s. Make trade ties conditional to Pakistan delivering on terrorism.
Not going to bring them to their knees
Trade with India won (http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-196162-Trade-with-India-wont-benefit-Pakistan)


Bilateral trade has increased to $2.4 billion, which may soar to $6 billion in the next two years if both countries decide to treat each other equally. Currently, most of the trade between India and Pakistan takes place via Dubai and its volume is estimated at over $4 billion.


Trade between India and Pakistan surges 21% to $2.4 billion – The Express Tribune (http://tribune.com.pk/story/548768/trade-between-india-and-pakistan-surges-21-to-2-4-billion/)

He said bilateral trade volume between the two countries was $2 billion.


3. Legal: India is unduly sensitive about “internationalising” its conflict with Pakistan. It should instead make it clear to the world that Pakistan’s repeated bluff about holding a plebiscite over Kashmir’s disputed status is just that – bluff.

Is India going to withdraw most of its troops as called for in said toothless resolution?


The United States has shown how to do it with Mexico’s drug mafia

We sell the cartels guns and allow every Mexican who wishes to come here.

=========
Really unless India states "we will launch our entire army against you, regardless of the season or international pressure, the next time Pakistani backed/housed terrorists attack us" - they won't stop. Ergo learn to deal with them sending raiding parties and terrorists.

Tronic
26 Oct 13,, 23:21
Is India going to withdraw most of its troops as called for in said toothless resolution?

The UN resolution actually called for Pakistan to withdraw it's troops from erstwhile-J&K, as a precursor to the plebiscite, and the subsequent removal of Indian forces. Pakistan did not oblige, and the rest is history.

lemontree
27 Oct 13,, 06:10
Now to the issues


Siachen : Pakistan bleeds more (in sustainability terms) than India. India bleeds less than she used to, especially with improved infrastructure on our side. Consequently, our stance has hardened. While previously we used to discuss withdrawal, now we are discussing delineation past NJ9842. I support holding onto this, till we can get some major level concession
You will get no agreement from them on this issue.


Water : no quarter, there is already IWT. We also had the ICA rule in our favour this spring. Things are going to get tighter for them, then we can talk. Though I favour a continuous process of dialogue ;)
We have an agreement with them and we have abided by it and not diverted the water flow from J&K. They want to dictate terms on building run-of-the-river power projects, that is not acceptable.


Sir Creek : I am confused by the opposition to this. We are sitting on a bed of oil and gas that we refuse to let each other explore. India had proposed an equitable energy sharing arrangement way back in 2006 and has given signals about opening up a dialogue again on this one. Just to clarify this issue, we claim that the Creek should be divided in the middle, they claim the whole of it. So an equitable arrangement is actually in our favour, and would also benefit them. so again, why do we have opposition to this issue?
We say share it equally, and Pakistan does not want to share it. Once each nation agrees a little give and take the issue will be solved. Pakistan wants to take, but not give.


Cross border trade: What exactly is being gained by opposition to this? Why would it be bad to buy their cement, in exchange for us sending them a bunch of our stuff? Why do we have to use Dubai as a mid point for trade between Bombay and Karachi. Can someone explain to me why that is a good thing, for us?
India will the biggest market for Pak made goods and good for them, but till the Pak military and civil govt stop the killing, hatred, animosity, they can be no wholesome trade.


Power sharing arrangements : Earlier this year there were talks about selling power to Pakistan. That stopped. How does that benefit us? We lose revenue as well as some amount of leverage
Once the rabid hatred stops, trade will start.


Energy pipeline to get access to Central Asian and Iranian energy sources: As I have explained already, there is a lot to be gained from this, with appropriate systems in place.

Agreed, but we have to destroy the fountain head of terrorism first.


In fact, being the zionist Hindoo Baniya that I am, I propose we go even more and think of opening up a trade and commerce corridor linking Central Asia/ Iran right up to Bangladesh/ Myanmar. Both of our countries would be minting money and generating jobs just allowing the use of land for the transit.
This is an alien concept to the Pakistanis jihadi-military machine.


Captain, our side has already agreed to have a dialogue on many of these issues, including Siachen and Sir Creek.
That was done to see what can be achieved - the result is nothing. Pakistanis want but don't want to give back.

anil
27 Oct 13,, 16:05
test.. http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/smilies/ashamed0005.gif

Agnostic Muslim
13 Nov 13,, 19:26
Here is yet another Indian media report quoting 'anonymous Indian government officials' (judgements on the veracity of the article, given the use of anonymous sources, are up to the reader) casting doubt on the Indian Army's version of events regarding alleged 'infiltration bids and ceasefire violations by the Pakistani Army'. The point behind posting these reports is to highlight the fact that the Indian military (or elements within the Indian military) is itself involved in manipulating Indian public and political opinion and undermining the peace process between India and Pakistan.


Government refuses Army’s claim of infiltration bid in Keran

NEW DELHI: Amid questions over what happened during the long intrusion by infiltrators from Pakistan in Keran sector, Government has refused to accept claims of Army, saying there was no evidence on ground to suggest any infiltration bid.

At a high-level security meeting here recently, it was also felt that Army should fortify the "reception area" to trap militants who escape from the anti-infiltration grid-- which extends 4 to 5 km on the Indian side from the Line of Control(LoC)-- after they cross over, official sources said today.

The "reception area" is usually located at a place five km from the LoC which is set up by the Army to neutralise all those militants who manage to give a slip to troops at the border.

The meeting was of the view that the veracity of the much talked about infiltration bid from Pakistan, believed to be from its special forces, from Shalabhatu, a village split between Jammu and Kashmir and Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir, was in doubt as evidence for the same was not available with any other agency., the sources said. Shalabatu village was one of the much used infiltration route in early 1990s.

The meeting, in which a representative of Army had also participated, also took into account the technical intelligence which apparently did not back up any claims made by the Army, the sources said.

The Army has already rejected all doubts expressed over the Keran operation and asserted that the troops on the ground were dominating the LoC and regularly approaching their own posts all the time. The Keran operation was called off nearly two weeks after it began in the last week of August.

During the security meeting, J and K police again highlighted the point that there were two major infiltration bids in other areas -- Gujjar Dor and Fateh Gali-- and not in Keran.

Army claimed in its FIR with state police that three militants were killed but handed over only two bodies, saying that the third could not be retrieved as it was lying on the LoC.

This prompted the state police to launch an investigation and shared its report at the meeting in which it said that on the intervening night of 4-5 October this year, a group of nine militants entered from Athmuqam side in PoK out of whom two were killed and seven others had managed to enter.

In the second incident, the Army in its FIR had said that four militants entered and were killed in Fatehgali, a place 30 km from the Keran area.

However, police said that during the incident, five militants had already managed to enter, the sources said.

Army's claims about the Keran infiltration bid had come under scrutiny as it had claimed that nearly 30 militants had entered and had been encircled.

However, troops could not trace any militant or ammunition or tell tale signs of infiltration in the Shalabatu village of Keran, official sources said.

"Terrorists initially made a desperate infiltration bid in Shalabatu area, which was foiled by own troops. The survivors attempted to infiltrate from multiple points in adjacent areas in the same sector, like Gujjar Dor and Fatehgali, where they were engaged and eliminated," Army had said in a statement.
Government refuses Army's claim of infiltration bid in Keran - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/government-refuses-armys-claim-of-infiltration-bid-in-keran/articleshow/25702696.cms)

SajeevJino
14 Nov 13,, 03:52
Here is yet another Indian media report quoting 'anonymous Indian government officials' (judgements on the veracity of the article, given the use of anonymous sources, are up to the reader) casting doubt on the Indian Army's version of events regarding alleged 'infiltration bids and ceasefire violations by the Pakistani Army'. The point behind posting these reports is to highlight the fact that the Indian military (or elements within the Indian military) is itself involved in manipulating Indian public and political opinion and undermining the peace process between India and Pakistan.

My point is I can't believe what you said or your govt said nor my Govt Said ..but i will openly accept what the armed Peoples said .They are saving our life from Pakistani Pigs .. Not you your media and not my govt


It's Clear I saw in Times Now Television Channel they Broadcasting a Short Clip got from the Army's Camera " There are 4 to five Peoples armed with ak 47 and slowly breaching our Borders ..and Tomorrows News IA send some Pigs into hell to enjoy the 72 dating services ..on DFI there is a IA major Clearly debunked the Infiltrators are all Pakistani Special forces

and even here everyone knows who was the Infiltrator .. But some Pakistani's only saying they are all Aliens we don't know

lemontree
14 Nov 13,, 04:47
At a high-level security meeting here recently, it was also felt that Army should fortify the "reception area" to trap militants who escape from the anti-infiltration grid-- which extends 4 to 5 km on the Indian side from the Line of Control(LoC)-- after they cross over, official sources said today.

The "reception area" is usually located at a place five km from the LoC which is set up by the Army to neutralise all those militants who manage to give a slip to troops at the border.
This paragraph by the reporter speaks of incorrect information and wrong terminology.
I shall not reveal the proper terms or the correct details, but the forum memebrs can rest be assured that the above para is crap.