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DonBelt
02 Oct 13,, 05:32
I know it has been talked about on here before, but my searches haven't really turned up the exact thread it was discussed on. How does one go about obtaining a decommissioned ship for donation as a museum ship? I understand that a business plan is needed showing how preservation and upkeep will be funded, locations need to be found, donors found,and that there has to be some sort of historical reason that the ship is significant. What I'm thinking of is the former USS Paul F Foster- it is now the Navy's SDTS, but it is the last of the Spruances and someday the Navy is going to be done with her.
It's beyond my ability to organize something like this (I can barely keep my car running!) but maybe I can be an instigator. There are a number of online pages for former Sprucan sailors ( my former ship the Stump being one) and maybe I can plant a few ideas here and there and point in the right direction and someone who does have the ability can run with it. They were the destroyer type that saw the Cold War to its conclusion and it would be nice if there was one saved as a museum ship. I take my kids to museum ships around the New England area, but to show them the ship type I was on would be special. Anyway, I have no idea how long the Navy intends to use her but I figure if I can help get the conversation started now on the crew websites and fb pages, well who knows what's possible? Thanks!

Tamara
02 Oct 13,, 07:30
Someone have a thing against Spurances? Looking at the first three, not including the Foster, of the class, I see that it was a VERY short time from decommissioning to being no more whether by gunfire or the torch. Is there a force out there that wants to make sure there isn't a chance that any of them remain?

DonBelt
02 Oct 13,, 12:41
It was an economic decision by the Navy, they preferred to put the money into new Burkes rather than continue to maintain the Spruances. All that's left is the Foster, currently serving as the SDTS and the Kidd class transferred to Taiwan. If I can, and I know some others are as well, I would like to get former Sprucan sailors aware that the Foster still exists and is last of class and get them thinking about museum ship status so when the Navy is finally done with her there may be some movement afoot to get her.

SlaterDoc
02 Oct 13,, 14:17
As to the original question....... as the years have gone by the process has become more difficult and daunting! Just like everything else the "gov" does, the added bureaucracies make things near impossible. However, it was never easy!
For a ship to be considered for donation status it must have some significant historical significance. One way is for it to be the first in it's class. For some reason (that does not include common sense) being "the last remaining one" didn't count! Now-a- days, "historical significance" seems to be a phrase that is being lost along with the people that created it!
The other way to acquire a historical ship that has worked in the past is to get some foreign country that received one and no longer needs or wants it to donate it to a veteran group. Either way, you need much more than a business plan! You better have a lot of money already in the bank and a commitment on many things! One, is a place to put it and a community that will accept and support it, an established and approved non-profit to run and maintain and be responsible for it and (this one is the real task) a lot of local, state and federal political support!

DonBelt
02 Oct 13,, 16:24
Thanks Doc- that's kind of what I was looking for. I can make a sort of check list of that and put it out there and see if there are people who might be able to run with some of those items. That is of course if a significant historical fact can be found on her. But these are things that can be thought about and talked about. I have no idea when her useful life may be over so it's all an intellectual exercise at the moment. The Slater you got from the Greek gov't I believe, so that was a private sale? The entity to contact with the Federal gov't would be Navsea Sea21 I think. Do they determine on their own what ships have historic significance and put them on a donation list or can people contact them and make a case for historic significance and request a ship be put on the list?

desertswo
02 Oct 13,, 16:26
It was an economic decision by the Navy, they preferred to put the money into new Burkes rather than continue to maintain the Spruances. All that's left is the Foster, currently serving as the SDTS and the Kidd class transferred to Taiwan. If I can, and I know some others are as well, I would like to get former Sprucan sailors aware that the Foster still exists and is last of class and get them thinking about museum ship status so when the Navy is finally done with her there may be some movement afoot to get her.

If I read the question properly (and who knows if I did?), I believe it was in order to discover why those ships are being scrapped almost as soon as they are made fast to whatever in Suisun Bay. In that regard you were correct; it was economic, but more than that, it was a rather cynical way to sort of force the situation with regard to building new ships. The guys wearing stars didn't want the possibility of any of those ships coming back out of mothballs so that they could relive the 60s and early-70s again. If they aren't around, that cannot happen. Ergo, we get sad sights like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EunDiDKOLk8

SlaterDoc
03 Oct 13,, 00:52
Geez Skipper, you had to show that? It's enough to make an old man cry! Such a waste! I know they need to test weapons and all, but the choices of ships they make......sheesh!
Don, DESA (Destroyer Escort Sailors Assoc) was lucky to have Greece "give" the ship back to her "real" owners! However, they did need to raise over $300K to get her towed back here. Likewise in the case of the LST-325. It has been mostly those great ships that won the big war that have been sought and in many cases obtained. Recent history has presented less and less historical significance for ships to "deserve" museum status. NAVSEA is the office that handles the ships.But, the decision whether to donate does come from higher in the food chain. For a good idea of what goes into the process you might want to follow what is going on with the JFK. Check out USS John F. Kennedy Aircraft Carrier Project in Rhode Island (http://www.ussjfkri.org)
One of the other big things about most of the so called "donated" museum ships is that the Navy retains ownership and ultimate control of the vessels. So, there are many limitations on use and requirements on upkeep.
In another thread I made mention of another WW2 Cannon Class DE that is still haze gray and underway ( although the gray may be off now) in the Royal Thai Navy. She was "loaned"to them in 59. Now, if we could get them to give her back.....:rolleyes:

Another interesting fact is about the LST-325. After Greece decided to return her to the vets, 30 of them (average age 72) sailed her back from Greece. You can see the log of her journey home here lst391.html (http://www.palosverdes.com/lst887/lst325.html)

DonBelt
03 Oct 13,, 05:01
I'd take all the old ships and give them a home if I could....

Tamara
03 Oct 13,, 07:39
One might want to ask the question, which is better, whether they sit around for years afterwards, to be admired.....and used for whatever point some person wants to make, be it a promotional poster, a movie, a protest, or whatever..................

............................or, if they indeed do have a spirit as so many believe, that they go down in "battle".

There is at least one thing to be said for a SINKEX; it totally eliminates the possibility of ending up at the torch............unlike the USS Cabot.

DonBelt
03 Oct 13,, 13:03
A ship's spirit will remain alive as long as there is a crew to man her- this is true for a museum ship as well. Just ask Doc about the Slater, or any of the crew onboard the Joseph P. Kennedy. Many times these people are former crew members or at least served on similar ships and do their best to bring their ships to life. The Cabot was a shame- I saw her in Spain while she was the Daedalo and still in use. There is a definite responsibility on the part of those who care for these ships to keep them in good shape- I'm not sure the Cabot ever made it to the point of having an organization take custody and start maintaining her. Another example of the last of her class. I'm 50/50 on scrapping versus sinkex. Scrapping you could say recycles the materials and brings life to another ship. Assuming the metal is used for that. But there is something dignified about sinking her at sea- kind of like a burial at sea.

SlaterDoc
03 Oct 13,, 14:47
Ahh...that opens a Pandora's box of thoughts and feelings that I try to keep control of and in so doing keep my blood pressure under control!
But, since the thread was started and entitled as "Museum Ships" I must vent a little where appropriate!
There are a few controlling factors in the mix. First, is that as time has raged on the useful life of these vessels has grown and grown. However, the technology has grown faster making them obsolete in a number of ways as related to their effectiveness. Second, the politics of military might has turned into something that "will" come back to bite us in our proverbial arse again as before! Third, the whole idea of cost versus return is screwed up! One other is we seem to have again lost our ability to use common sense!
I like to use analogies. So, I'm gonna try this one. Instead of ships, let's use fire engines. When they are still in decent shape and replaced by new ones, many are turned over to auxiliary departments or sold to smaller ill-equipped departments. So long as it is maintained it continues to serve. When one becomes so rusted away as to be unusable, parts are taken for re-use and the hulk scrapped for the metal. When some major conflagration occurs, it's amazing how much those "auxiliary" units contribute! I know! I have seen it first hand! In some cases those auxiliary fire engines are kept in such great shape they are used in parades and events the same way as the collector ones. Then you have those collector ones that are a part of a display somewhere. There is a need for Sinkex. There is a place for scrapping. But, there are many cases of both being used inappropriately. The Cabot is one example. One that exceeds her is USS Enterprise (CV-6). While the latest namesake has the "nuclear" issue that makes her a non-candidate, CV-6 was the most decorated ship of WW2. We are lucky to have as many WW2 carriers as we do.
I wonder how many are really aware of the size of the historical fleet. It is larger than most of the current Navy's of the world. Soon it will be larger than the US active Navy if the current powers that be have their way! Take a look at the list (there are ships still to be added)
Historic Naval Ships Visitors Guide - Ships by Type (http://www.hnsa.org/class.htm)
How many countries can put together 6 Carrier Battle Groups or 10 BB Battle Groups? ( I am including the next Carrier that will probably join the list)
What supersedes all of this is the need to preserve those that we have! These ships were built and lived to sail! When they stagnate is when they rust away and sink at their moorings! The ones that continue to thrive are the ones that are truly living museums! I have faith and the belief ours(USS Slater) will be a shining example of that soon! Even though there were a few little glitches when the first of her 4 mains was turned over recently! But hey, she is 70 years old! At 70 it is sometimes harder to get out of bed in the morning!

85 gt kid
03 Oct 13,, 15:54
Finally gonna be able to reply (been trying to post on my phone and keep screwing up!)

Anyways how strict is the "historical significance" part? Reason I ask is as much as I like the Salem I don't believe she's reallly "historically" significant. She didn't serve in a war, didn't fire her guns in anger etc. Now her guns could make her historically significant but I don't know how that works.

+1 Doc couldn't have been said any better! Unfortunatly the funding that could go towards funding a lot of these go towards stupid crap instead :/. Instead we throw away history like the Cabot, Enterprise, Washington, Des Moines etc :(. I guess all we can do is donate as much time and/or money that we can to preserve the ones we have.

O and you'll wanna drop the BBGs to 8 (Utah and Arizona are more permanent memorials). But Washinton is supposed to be getting a Wasp class LHD so that could basically but the CBGs to 7 :D. I still don't get why the Navy just pulled the Ranger from that group with no explanation at all. Hopefully the JFK will make it so we'll have a super carrier museum to go see :wors:.

TopHatter
03 Oct 13,, 18:15
But Washinton is supposed to be getting a Wasp class LHD

Say what? :confused:

85 gt kid
03 Oct 13,, 18:20
After I posted that I was like hmmmmmmmm so I looked back and I think its one of the Tarawa class instead. Unfortunately I haven't found the link where I read that :confused:.

85 gt kid
03 Oct 13,, 18:31
And it's a group in Oregon not Washington (darn memory).

desertswo
03 Oct 13,, 18:41
+1 Doc couldn't have been said any better! Unfortunatly the funding that could go towards funding a lot of these go towards stupid crap instead :/. Instead we throw away history like the Cabot, Enterprise, Washington, Des Moines etc :(. I guess all we can do is donate as much time and/or money that we can to preserve the ones we have.


Enterprise was never going to be anyone's museum. She has eight reactor cores, and to defuel her will require gutting her like a fish, leaving her manifestly unsafe for most sailors, never mind civilians, to walk around.

85 gt kid
03 Oct 13,, 18:51
Not CVN-65 I'm talking about CV-6.

desertswo
03 Oct 13,, 19:09
Not CVN-65 I'm talking about CV-6.

That's different. ;)

85 gt kid
03 Oct 13,, 19:10
Not the link I was looking for but it's close lol. Look at the Post Decomm part:

USS Tarawa (LHA-1) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Tarawa_(LHA-1))

DonBelt
03 Oct 13,, 21:39
Not surprised with the Ranger. I can't imagine the amount of money it would take to maintain a large carrier. I'd bet it's posted online somewhere for one of the current carrier museums and I'll bet you could run several destroyers for that same amount. But a carrier has drawing power so that figures into it- the JFK people have a better chance- they seem very organized and motivated and the JFK would have a lot of support in the Southern New England area. (JFK is practically a saint to many hereabouts) 48 ships are listed as donated museum ships by the Navy, but the actual number is larger because there are ships out there not on the list- like the Slater, LST 325, the PT boats at Fall River, etc.
It'd be nice if there was a place they could be towed to every few years to have them in one spot. I'd love to see a couple of DE's, a Fletcher, LST, a Liberty ship or 2 all together. It would make a heck of a D-Day commemoration. It's too bad none of the Essex class carriers are in their WW2 layout. To me a museum ship is like a living connection to the past- its a wonder to young kids and a comfort to old vets.

TopHatter
03 Oct 13,, 21:54
Not the link I was looking for but it's close lol. Look at the Post Decomm part:

USS Tarawa (LHA-1) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Tarawa_(LHA-1))

I could certainly see a Tarawa as a museum ship much more easily than any supercarrier.
A supercarrier museum is a laughable pipe dream unless you've got a multimillionaire sugar daddy waiting in the wings.

The next best thing would've been CVN-65's island...but even that won't happen. :mad:

Tamara
03 Oct 13,, 23:49
Not surprised with the Ranger. I can't imagine the amount of money it would take to maintain a large carrier. I'd bet it's posted online somewhere for one of the current carrier museums and I'll bet you could run several destroyers for that same amount. But a carrier has drawing power so that figures into it- the JFK people have a better chance- they seem very organized and motivated and the JFK would have a lot of support in the Southern New England area. (JFK is practically a saint to many hereabouts) 48 ships are listed as donated museum ships by the Navy, but the actual number is larger because there are ships out there not on the list- like the Slater, LST 325, the PT boats at Fall River, etc.
It'd be nice if there was a place they could be towed to every few years to have them in one spot. I'd love to see a couple of DE's, a Fletcher, LST, a Liberty ship or 2 all together. It would make a heck of a D-Day commemoration. It's too bad none of the Essex class carriers are in their WW2 layout. To me a museum ship is like a living connection to the past- its a wonder to young kids and a comfort to old vets.

Does a carrier really have such drawing power? I got to tell you, I've NEVER been on a carrier. I have been around Charleston, drove through Corpus Christi, spent enough time around NYC. Rather spend my time on the beach of the east coast, or on the gulf coast, and there so many things to do in NYC.

I think we overrate just what history is. I am potentially looking at a question from someone, who has mistaken my comments of my childhood for the present day, and I might have to clarify that "such" was back during the Yom Kippur War. To me, the mention of that is reality....but I suspect to many, it is a footnote in a history book, something unknown, unappreciated, unrealized.

Should we appreciate history more? Probably.

But, harshly, economically, if we are depending on a piece of metal to attract the dollars to support it, then we maybe looking at a rapidly depleting pool of dying veterans to do such..........and we need something else to bring the crowds in, be it State Pride, or items of the modern era on the deck, the site of a music video, or whatever.

DonBelt
04 Oct 13,, 02:16
depends on the carrier and location I'd imagine. The only museum carrier I've ever been on is the Intrepid in NYC and they do very well. The other carriers from what I read do well, but I can't speak from personal experience. They have the attraction of not just the ship, but aircraft and they have ample space for conferences, events and other activities. When an active duty carrier pulls into port there are always lines of people waiting to get onboard. The JFK was a major attraction when she visited Boston. I think they are a bigger attraction than a destroyer, but a destroyer is less expensive to maintain. I hate to think of it in terms of "attractions" like it was a carnival ride, but you need income to maintain it and it means more to many of us than just an interesting way to spend the afternoon. You are right about needing more than just the physical ship and vets and many museum ships offer a variety of programs now to attract people and make money.

elc32955
04 Nov 13,, 02:28
Looks like the USS Clamagore at Patriots Point is going to be either reefed or scrapped very soon according to the linked article. I was aboard her earlier this year and she looked better inside then in previous years, but the outer hull was in pretty bad shape.

Rusting Clamagore sub at Patriots Point likely to become a marine reef – The Post and Courier (http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20131101/PC05/131109858/1010/)

Eric

85 gt kid
04 Nov 13,, 03:45
Ugh that's just sickening. Patriots Point shouldn't be allowed to be caretakers of any of these ships. No matter if the "current" board is doing better they obviously don't know what they're doing not just with the Clamagore but with the Yorktown as well. So now another piece of history will be lost because of people's inability to make correct choices.

Gun Grape
04 Nov 13,, 05:43
Ugh that's just sickening. Patriots Point shouldn't be allowed to be caretakers of any of these ships. No matter if the "current" board is doing better they obviously don't know what they're doing not just with the Clamagore but with the Yorktown as well. So now another piece of history will be lost because of people's inability to make correct choices.

They did a good job getting the Laffey reskinned.

They only have so much money Do you put that money towards war vets that draw a crowd or the other boat?

85 gt kid
04 Nov 13,, 06:04
I understand that but you can't tell me that that they couldn't have put aside any money for the last 30 years for the inevitable dry docking that she (and every museum ship) needs? Yes they did good with the Laffey but what about their prize ship? If the rumors are true her back is broken. Only reason that would be is from being in the mud which even from a newb like me can tell that's the dumbest thing to do. Even if her hull could take it the paint will be gone in no time at all and then what do you get when salt water and bare metal mix? Just really sucks to see another piece of history get thrown away. Too bad I don't have time to go see her.

For that matter why do most museums stick the ships in the mud? I've heard it's for "stability" for the tourists but that's a load of crap. I've been on both the Wisconsin and New Jersey and never felt them move at all. Maybe thats the case on the smaller ships but not the carriers and battleships.

DonBelt
04 Nov 13,, 06:17
Any chance at putting her on dry land?

tbm3fan
04 Nov 13,, 08:29
100 million to fix the Yorktown according to the article. Also seems that info regarding her is being kept close to the vest.

Well my crystal ball tells me two things.

One, there is going to probably be only two carrier museums 10 years from now and both on the West Coast. Can't tell yet if the Big John group will actually fly.

Two, there is going to be another parts ship for us to stick on our list and it isn't a sub.

tbm3fan
04 Nov 13,, 08:42
For that matter why do most museums stick the ships in the mud? I've heard it's for "stability" for the tourists but that's a load of crap. I've been on both the Wisconsin and New Jersey and never felt them move at all. Maybe thats the case on the smaller ships but not the carriers and battleships.

Most likely to do with the fact that both Corpus Christie and Patriot's Point can be subject to hurricanes which would move a carrier some since they are pretty much unprotected. If that were the case neither place should have been awarded a ship in the first place.

85 gt kid
04 Nov 13,, 15:54
Most likely to do with the fact that both Corpus Christie and Patriot's Point can be subject to hurricanes which would move a carrier some since they are pretty much unprotected. If that were the case neither place should have been awarded a ship in the first place.

That's what I was thinking since it's the best way to keep them from breaking their lines and floating away but then if they're just gonna get destroyed like that in a relatively short time then what's the point in being there. Picking the ships for parts would be the only good that comes out of this. Hopefully we're wrong though and everyone will get their acts together.

SlaterDoc
04 Nov 13,, 16:17
Some subjects just stir the need in me to break glass and raise my blood pressure (which is not good anymore at my age)! :pari:
The whole area of museum ships needs what many of them do, a complete overhaul beginning with the very start and the Navy!The decision on which ship, the restrictions applied, to whom "given" and where to be placed require addressing!
If the Navy no longer needs the ship, they should no longer own it! None of these ships should be kept as stagnant displays! Most of their systems should be kept functional and maintained. OK, so we don't really need the weapons to work! Or....do we? Everyone of us that is actively involved in a ship has a list of better and less expensive ideas on keeping them alive and "living". One way that tops the lists is for them to have a useful purpose! Whether to be used for education, functions, training or as disaster platforms they need to be needed!
Take a look at many of the current museum ships (especially the big ones) and in most cases, somewhere nearby you will find a derelict or abandoned dry dock! With all the now defunct Naval shipyards there is a bunch of them! So...take care of the future maintenance at the same time!
In honor of a certain member on here I will use a combined actual/theoretical example.
Take for instance the USS Hornet! Just across the bay is the now closed and troubled Hunter's Point Naval Shipyard. One of the dry docks there should have been set aside (along with it's surrounding structures and equipment) as a "historical site" and museum (as a condition of transfer to the state or city of the rest of the land). The Hornet should be relocated there and kept in that dry dock. The dry dock would be kept flooded most of the time and then drained regularly for periodic maintenance. The same applies to Mare Island which is currently being planned or considered for Olympia. If the ship is small enough, as in the case of the ex-USS Hazard, build a freaking dry dock! In the case of a ship that is able to move under her own power (like ours will be ;)), that same dry dock can be used. Have a back up location for temporarily moving the occupant out for a bit (Boston is a good example). In both Mare and Hunter's point there is plenty of berthing space next to the dry dock that can be preserved. For those areas that do not have a suitable berthing area nearby, as in the case of Texas, build one first! Now they are going to have to do that after the fact just to try and save her!
What really gets my gall is they (the Navy) closes a shipyard, "gives" it "back" to a city or state and then they (developers and city) make millions developing them! Well, the developers make money and the gov spends millions! Look at how good a steward of the "historical requirements" of NTC, San Diego the developer has been! :pari:
OK, I better stop now! The blood pressure needs to settle!

ChrisV71
04 Nov 13,, 16:28
The Lexington isn't in the mud, she's in sand. When they brought her in, they dredged out to about 6 inches under the keel, moved her in place and pumped about 4 million gallons of water onboard. I understand nearly everything 5th deck and below is flooded apart from the machinery spaces. This was required to keep her from moving in a hurricane. It's also why she has a slight port list (slope of the beach). Add to this the dreadful humidity and lack of effective climate control onboard and her bottom is rotting out. The curator I talked to last time I was there estimated an effective life span of about 20 more years and they will sink or scrap her. It's part of the reason her flight deck got such a ghetto "repair" with the blacktop instead of a proper repair. I doubt the Yorktown's keel is broken, the ship would be condemmed as a safety hazard if that's the case. Rumor's fly around in the USN. When I was on the Lexington, in 1990-1991, I couldn't go a week without having to argue with someone that the ship wasn't originally planned to be a battlecruiser. That was the previous Lexington CV-2...

Patriots Point should just lift Clamagore and set her on land, like the Drum. Exterior Restoration could then take place as funds were available. (I realize the initial cost of lifing Clamagore is a killer in this case)

SlaterDoc
04 Nov 13,, 16:49
Patriots Point should just lift Clamagore and set her on land, like the Drum. Exterior Restoration could then take place as funds were available. (I realize the initial cost of lifing Clamagore is a killer in this case)

Where there is a will, there's a way! :mad:

Dreadnought
04 Nov 13,, 17:37
Olympia is proposing one of Philadelphia Naval Shipyards former drydocks (Drydock #1) to serve as a graving dock for the Olympia preservation. What it needs is the city to relinquish control and ownership of the drydock.

A plan to save the USS Olympia (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20131006_A_plan_to_save_the_USS_Olympia.html)

Hopefully we will not loose her but in either case she cant go anywhere without either immediate drydock service or a piggy back ride on a ship similar to the one that helped bring the USS Cole home after her damage in Oman.

She will definately not make the open ocean to any other location in her current condition.

85 gt kid
04 Nov 13,, 17:38
Good words Doc I'm with you there! O and I have an AWD Explorer that we can use to drag it up :biggrin:.

That's a shame about the Lexington though and it goes back to the same thing if they have to go to extremes like that to keep her in place then you shouldn't have her. These ships are supposed to last GENERATIONS not a handful of decades.

Glad to hear about the Olympia I saw her the same time I saw NJ and she was very cool to see. I wish the machinery spaces were open though.

SlaterDoc
04 Nov 13,, 18:35
Olympia is proposing one of Philadelphia Naval Shipyards former drydocks (Drydock #1) to serve as a graving dock for the Olympia preservation. What it needs is the city to relinquish control and ownership of the drydock.

Geez, don't you think they could have thought of that sooner! :confu:
Dread, what's with the "Urban" logo in plant form in the middle of dry dock #1, do you know?
That goes to my thoughts on developers and businesses that benefit from the closed bases. Again, not enough thought went into preserving the yard! A couple of the buildings around dry dock #1 should have been set aside. They are all now part of Urban Outfitters's "Campus"! It seems they have taken over the dry dock as well!
Do you know if the caissons are still there?

Another fine example of what I am frustrated about! Right there only a few doors away is NAVSEA!
Plus, what better place for a museum ship, museum dry dock and etc than a former Naval Base!

85 gt kid
04 Nov 13,, 18:38
Anyone know why the Navy cut the 8" barrels off of Olympia?

ChrisV71
04 Nov 13,, 18:59
Anyone know why the Navy cut the 8" barrels off of Olympia?

Those turrets and guns were obsolete. For one, the turrets were unbalanced. They were replaced with something more up to date, which was fine for what the USN had Olympia doing at the time. The only cruiser of her era that really got modernized with new turrets was New York. (aka Saratoga, aka Rochester)

Dreadnought
04 Nov 13,, 19:51
Geez, don't you think they could have thought of that sooner! :confu:
Dread, what's with the "Urban" logo in plant form in the middle of dry dock #1, do you know?
That goes to my thoughts on developers and businesses that benefit from the closed bases. Again, not enough thought went into preserving the yard! A couple of the buildings around dry dock #1 should have been set aside. They are all now part of Urban Outfitters's "Campus"! It seems they have taken over the dry dock as well!
Do you know if the caissons are still there?

Another fine example of what I am frustrated about! Right there only a few doors away is NAVSEA!
Plus, what better place for a museum ship, museum dry dock and etc than a former Naval Base!


*Urban Outfitters (Clothing etc) that has a rather large place in the former PNSY.

SlaterDoc
04 Nov 13,, 21:49
*Urban Outfitters (Clothing etc) that has a rather large place in the former PNSY.

That I know! What I was doing is venting! If any of us wanted to make use of that dry dock in the manner it was intended, it would be a process as involved and as long as getting a ship! Yet, now that UO has taken over most of that area, they can go ahead and use the dry dock for advertising! They must be some type of floating planters! I am going to bet that the only resistance to the "Olympia Plan" will come from them!

85 gt kid
04 Nov 13,, 21:59
What I meant was supposedly what you see as "gun barrels" on the Olympia are actually just steel tubes not real barrels though that could have been a myth idk.

tbm3fan
05 Nov 13,, 06:59
Navy Doc you don't want to read this as I am warning you.

This news I just heard concerns the MIDWAY. As I have told you before the ship has had leaks fairly soon after being put into place. This was due to the Museum Association not dredging the area under the rear of the ship. Then on low tide the front was free floating while the rear half ends up sitting on a ledge stressing the hull.

Talking to Tom tonight about the Yorktown and Ranger he mentioned there was a visitor on board the HORNET a few months ago. This visitor he felt worked on the MIDWAY as he knew far too much about the leaks and in what compartments they were in. It seems now that the pumps are on 24hours a day to keep up with the water and weren't keeping up. Next there was the talk about the hull being cracked in the area of the leaks and might even involve the keel. These cracks don't surprise me since every time the MIDWAY was updated the new work actually damaged her seas keeping abilities and probably stressed her hull with all that blister work.

The disturbing part is that this has been known for years. The museum has plenty of money to dredge out the area in question using augers but has flailed to do so and has no plans to do so. Does that mean the Association is not planning on having the MIDWAY long term? Should the hull be cracked, and from the info provided it sounds like it is, then how long before she can't be moved from her location safely. I'm sure San Diego doesn't need a reef in the middle of San Diego Bay opposite North Island.

Tamara
05 Nov 13,, 09:19
........

That's a shame about the Lexington though and it goes back to the same thing if they have to go to extremes like that to keep her in place then you shouldn't have her. These ships are supposed to last GENERATIONS not a handful of decades.

..........

I'm rather confused on that statement of generations.....how do you figure that?

SlaterDoc
05 Nov 13,, 15:46
Thanks for the heads up TBM! I took a pill before reading!
Just goes to exemplify the point that money isn't always the answer. I am betting the Midway brings in the largest annual amount of any museum ship! (So far that is)
San Diego may not need or want a reef. But, they may get a coffer dam.... and a new meaning to calling that tall piece sticking out of her deck an "island"!
Nah.... too much and too many Navy in that area! They'll fix her! Maybe instead of "Sinkex" they are designing a way to move a big ship with a broken back and need a test subject!

qaz14595
05 Nov 13,, 16:27
From 2010 about MIDWAY - "Underwater Maintenance and Repair in Lieu of Dry Docking, USS Midway" (http://www.hnsa.org/handbook/midwayblanking.pdf)

tbm3fan
05 Nov 13,, 17:23
That we have known about and it is only a short term fix. The ship has sat on that ledge day in and day out since it opened in 2004. That is the sole cause of the problem and yet no dredging has been down to this day. She still leaks large amounts of water. They check the pumps every 4 hours down there while they run constantly. Doesn't sound fixed to me. You can't weld a crack which continues to get stretched apart every time the ship settles at low tide.

SlaterDoc
05 Nov 13,, 17:36
That we have known about and it is only a short term fix. The ship has sat on that ledge day in and day out since it opened in 2004. That is the sole cause of the problem and yet no dredging has been down to this day. She still leaks large amounts of water. They check the pumps every 4 hours down there while they run constantly. Doesn't sound fixed to me. You can't weld a crack which continues to get stretched apart every time the ship settles at low tide.

They have to start thinking out of the box or ....out of the hull, so to speak!
Haven't the guys down there ever heard of "Flex Seal"???:confused:
They must not watch enough TV! ;)

Tamara
07 Nov 13,, 03:34
On a slightly related note......

I was tripping through "Live and Let Die" today and got to the boat chase scene with the retired LST's. One or two of them sitting in the water, doing civilian support work.

Thinking of what we are talking about here, of what those ships might have represented in concept then (and cutting to the chase), have we made most of our Navy ships too big, too complex so only a government could possibly have the funds to keep up with them? Have we passed an era in time when there might have been a significant pool of ships that could be demil'd and uses found, AFFORDED, in the civilian world?

Who would even consider now buying an LST for civilian work? Is there any kind of Gator of today that is possible for such? Aside from tugs, is there any kind of ship in the Navy that could find a new life in the operating funds of a civilian?

It may not quite be the same as having a ship donated for a museum.....but there could be similarities.