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desertswo
24 Sep 13,, 20:19
Any pilots who did their training under the Shah would be at least in their late 50s now. I don't know how desperate Iran is for pilots, but in Europe, there's a mandatory retirement for combat pilots somewhere around age 45. 1980s, 1990s sure, but i doubt any combat pilot encountered in the last ten to fifteen years would be in that category.

True. The guys I was dealing with were mostly American-trained. While they are gone, I would imagine they are training their younger pilots, and one would assume, for their health if nothing else, they all have some English language skills; an ear for the language of "deconfliction" warnings and the like if nothing else.

desertswo
24 Sep 13,, 21:38
Mike,

I don't know how it is in Iran now, but here, in the former, commie state, all military pilots had mandatory English courses.

If nothing else, it was good for their post-military careers as civilian pilots.

While I appreciate the comment, I don't like to talk about the universality of the English language because I view it as a very bullshit one-way street. It's great that everyone speaks it, if you come from one of the states in the Anglosphere, but it makes us lazy and what it does in those states with regard to foreign language training is nothing short of monstrous. We are absolute shit when it comes to teaching foreign languages in the US, and I don't imagine it's really any better anywhere else in the UK, Australia; hell even in Canada which is supposed to be a semi-bilingual nation by law, they aren't terribly good at it.

Sorry; I kind of went off there, but I find it personally embarrassing. I mean your abilities with written English are remarkably good, and I don't imagine you are any less capable with the spoken language. Meanwhile most Anglos here in the Desert Southwest couldn't utter "Dos cervezas por favor" if their beer drinking lives depended on it. It's just appalling to me. I'm probably an army of one on this issue, but I've lived the realities of what happens in a real world scenario when the right people cannot be found in this huge country to speak and interpret a particular foreign language (you know the one as I have discussed this before), and it wasn't a pretty picture.

bonehead
25 Sep 13,, 06:44
While I appreciate the comment, I don't like to talk about the universality of the English language because I view it as a very bullshit one-way street. It's great that everyone speaks it, if you come from one of the states in the Anglosphere, but it makes us lazy and what it does in those states with regard to foreign language training is nothing short of monstrous. We are absolute shit when it comes to teaching foreign languages in the US, and I don't imagine it's really any better anywhere else in the UK, Australia; hell even in Canada which is supposed to be a semi-bilingual nation by law, they aren't terribly good at it.

Sorry; I kind of went off there, but I find it personally embarrassing. I mean your abilities with written English are remarkably good, and I don't imagine you are any less capable with the spoken language. Meanwhile most Anglos here in the Desert Southwest couldn't utter "Dos cervezas por favor" if their beer drinking lives depended on it. It's just appalling to me. I'm probably an army of one on this issue, but I've lived the realities of what happens in a real world scenario when the right people cannot be found in this huge country to speak and interpret a particular foreign language (you know the one as I have discussed this before), and it wasn't a pretty picture.


My Mom's third husband's brother learned Russian while in the Army. When he retired he made a fortune translating as while many knew Russian he was one of the few that caught the nuances of the language.

We are a nation made up of literally dozens of other countries. What jerks my chain is that when offered a second language it is always Spanish....has been for decades. If you want to go that route or of that is your heritage then by all means go for it. As for me when I get the time to learn a second/third language not a chance in hell it will be Spanish. I am going for one that will do me some good and/or something from my heritage. If only those rosseta stone language programs were not so damned expensive.

desertswo
25 Sep 13,, 16:25
My Mom's third husband's brother learned Russian while in the Army. When he retired he made a fortune translating as while many knew Russian he was one of the few that caught the nuances of the language.

We are a nation made up of literally dozens of other countries. What jerks my chain is that when offered a second language it is always Spanish....has been for decades. If you want to go that route or of that is your heritage then by all means go for it. As for me when I get the time to learn a second/third language not a chance in hell it will be Spanish. I am going for one that will do me some good and/or something from my heritage. If only those rosseta stone language programs were not so damned expensive.

Too true. I worked with an old geezer in the Pentagon (I was Joint Staff, he was DoD Staff/NSA) who had worked the Hot Line to Moscow for something like 19 years. I learned the point from him that you made; it's the nuances that matter.

As far as how we learn languages here, or what languages we were offered, I was probably the exception an I consider myself fortunate in that for whatever reason, I have this facility for learning languages, and I was also given opportunities to learn. I was speaking Spanish almost as early as I was English; my Godparents were Mexican-Americans and they sort of doted on me. Their kids were all bi-lingual and that's when it started. I got it in Catholic school from 5th through 8th grades, and unlike most of my classmates, I paid attention. When I got to high school I started learning Portuguese and the Sicilian dialect of Italian (it all had to do with the guys I was going to school with) just on my own. I'd hang with these guys who were all bi-lingual after a fashion and just immersed myself. As far as official language training in high school I was required to learn Latin (which I had already been "speaking" as an altar boy since the 5th grade), and then we were offered a second language, which were Spanish, French and German. I took the one non-Romance language in the bunch for three years. I was only required to take two but I enjoyed it and the teacher was good at it (immersion again; it always works), so I became fairly confident in German although I don't feel so these days. In college I took Portuguese again because I had just fallen in love with the language. Much prettier; more "musical" than Spanish. Only thing was, I was learning Brazilian Portuguese as that was the Professor's background. So it was filled with at lot of "Brazil-isms" that aren't found in the mother tongue. Then when in the Navy, I had orders to be an exchange officer with the Brazilian Navy, so I was going to the Defense Language Institute at Monterrey, but my wife broke her hip and that caused all sorts of perturbations that basically cancelled those orders. Anyway, I didn't really use those skills until I got to the Pentagon and they handed my the ball on all linguist issues. That's when I learned how really screwed up we were with regard to language training. Like I said in a previous post, it's just embarrassing.

I have a little story about my high school teaching days. When I retired from the Navy I became a bit of an iconoclast. I let my hair, which was quite gray, even at only 47, grow long enough to wear in a pony tail, and pretty much was always telling the administration what they could do with a lot of their rules and regulations that I thought were bullshit. I mean these guys were playing political games and trust me, nothing is more political than the military and especially the upper echelons thereof. I was like a ninja master playing with a bunch of neophytes. Idiots, the lot of them. Anyway, I mentioned before how we had a lot of kids who were either born in Romania, or were first generation Americans born of Romanian immigrants. Great kids, but like a lot of kids who think they are getting over on their teacher, they would speak in Romanian among themselves (everyone does it; it's just that there were more of them compared to everyone else, so it stood out more) and it didn't take me long to figure out they were often talking about me. This one term kept surfacing . . . "părul gri" . . . and I kept turning it over in my head and put 2 and 2 together and got 5, "părul gri" is very similar to the Spanish "pelo gris" or "gray hair." So one day I took a chance, and I told them, "You know, it's rude to speak in a language no one else but me understands, and one day the old "gray hair" is going to have to have a little chat with your parents . . . in Romanian." I said all this with a smile, and I wasn't really angry. It was just a lesson for them that the Spanish speaking kids had already learned; you never know what your teacher knows. In truth, I didn't know jack shit about Romanian other than it is a Romance language much older than Spanish, French, etc., but other than that, I never sat down to really learn it. But they didn't know that, and that's all that mattered. ;)

Mihais
25 Sep 13,, 17:07
Very nice kids you have there,gray hair. :)

Grand-grand-daddy went to US Army,made some bucks and returned to fight for the motherland,or buy it back.That was the norm 100+years ago.
I wonder what this bunch is really up to.
But anyway,it's a strange location for Romanian migrants.Most of those from the old days went to IL or Iowa.

p.s Hopefully the kids went away before they could learn some old Latin,Slavic and even some native descendents of the old Proto Indo-European slurs.:biggrin:

bonehead
25 Sep 13,, 17:35
Too true. I worked with an old geezer in the Pentagon (I was Joint Staff, he was DoD Staff/NSA) who had worked the Hot Line to Moscow for something like 19 years. I learned the point from him that you made; it's the nuances that matter.

As far as how we learn languages here, or what languages we were offered, I was probably the exception an I consider myself fortunate in that for whatever reason, I have this facility for learning languages, and I was also given opportunities to learn. I was speaking Spanish almost as early as I was English; my Godparents were Mexican-Americans and they sort of doted on me. Their kids were all bi-lingual and that's when it started. I got it in Catholic school from 5th through 8th grades, and unlike most of my classmates, I paid attention. When I got to high school I started learning Portuguese and the Sicilian dialect of Italian (it all had to do with the guys I was going to school with) just on my own. I'd hang with these guys who were all bi-lingual after a fashion and just immersed myself. As far as official language training in high school I was required to learn Latin (which I had already been "speaking" as an altar boy since the 5th grade), and then we were offered a second language, which were Spanish, French and German. I took the one non-Romance language in the bunch for three years. I was only required to take two but I enjoyed it and the teacher was good at it (immersion again; it always works), so I became fairly confident in German although I don't feel so these days. In college I took Portuguese again because I had just fallen in love with the language. Much prettier; more "musical" than Spanish. Only thing was, I was learning Brazilian Portuguese as that was the Professor's background. So it was filled with at lot of "Brazil-isms" that aren't found in the mother tongue. Then when in the Navy, I had orders to be an exchange officer with the Brazilian Navy, so I was going to the Defense Language Institute at Monterrey, but my wife broke her hip and that caused all sorts of perturbations that basically cancelled those orders. Anyway, I didn't really use those skills until I got to the Pentagon and they handed my the ball on all linguist issues. That's when I learned how really screwed up we were with regard to language training. Like I said in a previous post, it's just embarrassing.

I have a little story about my high school teaching days. When I retired from the Navy I became a bit of an iconoclast. I let my hair, which was quite gray, even at only 47, grow long enough to wear in a pony tail, and pretty much was always telling the administration what they could do with a lot of their rules and regulations that I thought were bullshit. I mean these guys were playing political games and trust me, nothing is more political than the military and especially the upper echelons thereof. I was like a ninja master playing with a bunch of neophytes. Idiots, the lot of them. Anyway, I mentioned before how we had a lot of kids who were either born in Romania, or were first generation Americans born of Romanian immigrants. Great kids, but like a lot of kids who think they are getting over on their teacher, they would speak in Romanian among themselves (everyone does it; it's just that there were more of them compared to everyone else, so it stood out more) and it didn't take me long to figure out they were often talking about me. This one term kept surfacing . . . "părul gri" . . . and I kept turning it over in my head and put 2 and 2 together and got 5, "părul gri" is very similar to the Spanish "pelo gris" or "gray hair." So one day I took a chance, and I told them, "You know, it's rude to speak in a language no one else but me understands, and one day the old "gray hair" is going to have to have a little chat with your parents . . . in Romanian." I said all this with a smile, and I wasn't really angry. It was just a lesson for them that the Spanish speaking kids had already learned; you never know what your teacher knows. In truth, I didn't know jack shit about Romanian other than it is a Romance language much older than Spanish, French, etc., but other than that, I never sat down to really learn it. But they didn't know that, and that's all that mattered. ;)




Right before graduation one of the final questions on my last Biology exam was what would I have done differently if I could go back 10 years and do something over again. I said "learn Latin". Just knowing the language would have added 10 points, or more, to many of my science exams.

I toyed with the idea of taking a language in college but the whole first year didn't count so take two years of it to make anything of it and the classes always clashed with my labs.

Doktor
25 Sep 13,, 17:46
Mike,

I am confused on why the Americans don't speak second language. I was expecting at least 200 million to do. And not only Spanish, but Chinese, Eastern European, German, Italian.

OK, on a more serious note on the topic...

What changed in USAF minds to base last generation stealth jets abroad?

I get the "See how much bang your buck does" and "No biz like show biz" parts. Correct me if wrong, but the previous generation of stealthies did the bang, only they departed from CONUS.

desertswo
25 Sep 13,, 18:01
Right before graduation one of the final questions on my last Biology exam was what would I have done differently if I could go back 10 years and do something over again. I said "learn Latin". Just knowing the language would have added 10 points, or more, to many of my science exams.

I toyed with the idea of taking a language in college but the whole first year didn't count so take two years of it to make anything of it and the classes always clashed with my labs.

For me it was Greek; I always wanted to learn more. My wife is half-Greek; her mother born and raised in Piraeus. Beyond "Κύριε ἐλέησον, Χριστέ ἐλέησον" ("Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy" For reasons I never understood, the old Latin Mass I first learned so long ago, did this weird shift into Koine Greek during the Offertory) I'm lost at sea! I also learned "Χριστός αυξάνεται" ("Christ is risen") from some Orthodox friends for Easter at the local Greek Orthodox Church. Even though Roman Catholics ourselves, we always enjoy the major holidays at whatever Greek Orthodox church we found wherever we've lived. There are some beautiful ones in San Diego and Phoenix believe it or not.

desertswo
25 Sep 13,, 18:36
Very nice kids you have there,gray hair. :)

Grand-grand-daddy went to US Army,made some bucks and returned to fight for the motherland,or buy it back.That was the norm 100+years ago.
I wonder what this bunch is really up to.
But anyway,it's a strange location for Romanian migrants.Most of those from the old days went to IL or Iowa.

p.s Hopefully the kids went away before they could learn some old Latin,Slavic and even some native descendents of the old Proto Indo-European slurs.:biggrin:

I thought so too; it's the fucking desert for Christ's sake!! I actually asked a parent one time, "Why Surprise, Arizona?" and she told me that basically one family sort of paves the way and if it's good, they let others know, and they start to move in en masse. It may be the desert, but you can buy a lot of nice house a lot cheaper here than you can in other parts of the country, so that is a factor. They also discovered one sure fired way of making a living, and that is doing something most home grown Americans have forgotten how to do, or decided not to do, and that's taking care of our old people. So the Romanians have cornered the market in what's known as "assisted living" in Surprise, Arizona. They buy a big house (they are known by some wags as "Mormon Boxes"), and fit it out with ramps and stuff for wheel chairs, and all the other stuff you need to take care of old folks, and then take them in, and from what I understand, they do a great job of it. It seems your people honor the old, in a why our people have forgotten how to do. It's really kind of a wonderful success story. The Romanians have gotten into other lines of work too, and their kids are contributing in a positive way. One of my students who, as luck would have it, I had all four years during his stay in school, joined the Air Force, and was given an airplane (an F-15 at to take care of Nellis, Air Force Base near Las Vegas) to take care of. It was quite a transformation, as he had been a little drifty, like all kids can be, but he seemed to have a goal of being all he could be. so it was sort of gratifying in a way. I hasten to add that I had nothing to do with his joining the military. I don't recruit; that's someone else's job.

As far as those slurs are concerned, when I was handed the whole linguist thing to work on (along with half a hundred other cans of worms), I really was forced to dig down deep into the whole mechanics of linguistics; something I hadn't done since I studied anthropological linguistics in university, and I found out something a little curious about your language. If an anthropological linguist wants to found out if a word in a Romance language, like Spanish, Italian, or Portuguese, was found in the vulgar (as in "common" not rude) Latin spoken by Romans back in the time of the Caesars, they don't look at Latin as we know it because we've actually lost a lot of how the language was actually spoken back then. No; they look at Romanian. It seems that for a period of time, the Roman colonies there were sort of cut off from parts of the outside world, and the language retained all of its roots. It's the sort of puzzle that fascinates the hell out of me. I just thought that was pretty cool. ;)

kato
25 Sep 13,, 18:37
What jerks my chain is that when offered a second language it is always Spanish....has been for decades.
Oddly enough, over here Spanish has been making huge inroads in the last decade - looking around the about two dozen high schools here it's now pretty much one of the two default third languages (aside from French).

When I was in highschool twenty years ago, none of these schools carried Spanish. You had a choice between French, Latin (with or without French as fourth) and no third language. Only exception of one humanist school in the city, which had and still has a "traditional" course with mandatory English, Latin, Old Greek and French as foreign languages, with Hebrew and Italian offered as optional sixth and seventh languages.

I went a sorta more traditional route - English and Latin in highschool, learned some Turkish (swearing) in elementary, some Russian (swearing) in the Army and took both Spanish and Japanese for fun in college.

desertswo
25 Sep 13,, 20:00
Oddly enough, over here Spanish has been making huge inroads in the last decade - looking around the about two dozen high schools here it's now pretty much one of the two default third languages (aside from French).

When I was in highschool twenty years ago, none of these schools carried Spanish. You had a choice between French, Latin (with or without French as fourth) and no third language. Only exception of one humanist school in the city, which had and still has a "traditional" course with mandatory English, Latin, Old Greek and French as foreign languages, with Hebrew and Italian offered as optional sixth and seventh languages.

I went a sorta more traditional route - English and Latin in highschool, learned some Turkish (swearing) in elementary, some Russian (swearing) in the Army and took both Spanish and Japanese for fun in college.

Kato, forgive me, I'm still kind of new here, so if you wouldn't mind sharing with me, where is "over here?"

Mihais
25 Sep 13,, 20:26
If an anthropological linguist wants to found out if a word in a Romance language, like Spanish, Italian, or Portuguese, was found in the vulgar (as in "common" not rude) Latin spoken by Romans back in the time of the Caesars, they don't look at Latin as we know it because we've actually lost a lot of how the language was actually spoken back then. No; they look at Romanian. It seems that for a period of time, the Roman colonies there were sort of cut off from parts of the outside world, and the language retained all of its roots. It's the sort of puzzle that fascinates the hell out of me. I just thought that was pretty cool. ;)


They drummed our head with Romanian being descendent from vulgar Latin,but that tidbit is news to me.It's true I've been into mathematics in highschool and my interest for languages is a recent one,related to my general interest for history.Except some languages spoken by the ''most probable enemies''. ;)
Thinking for 2 seconds,it makes sense.For once Romanian is homogenous,too a degree unlike any other Romance language.
Second is that it had no outside influence from any neo-Latin languages until 19th century,when many neologisms were borrrowed from French and very few from Italian.

An interesting thing I noticed,intelligence officers in the past tended to come from the navy.They travelled around the world and spoke foreign languages.

Doktor
25 Sep 13,, 21:06
Kato, forgive me, I'm still kind of new here, so if you wouldn't mind sharing with me, where is "over here?"

Somewhere in Germany. Close to French border.

desertswo
25 Sep 13,, 21:12
Somewhere in Germany. Close to French border.

Ah, I see!

bonehead
26 Sep 13,, 04:31
Oddly enough, over here Spanish has been making huge inroads in the last decade - looking around the about two dozen high schools here it's now pretty much one of the two default third languages (aside from French).

When I was in highschool twenty years ago, none of these schools carried Spanish. You had a choice between French, Latin (with or without French as fourth) and no third language. Only exception of one humanist school in the city, which had and still has a "traditional" course with mandatory English, Latin, Old Greek and French as foreign languages, with Hebrew and Italian offered as optional sixth and seventh languages.

I went a sorta more traditional route - English and Latin in highschool, learned some Turkish (swearing) in elementary, some Russian (swearing) in the Army and took both Spanish and Japanese for fun in college.

When I was a freshman in high school (early 1980's) the school made some changes. "Due to budgetary concerns French and German will be dropped leaving Spanish...Oh by the way a foreign language is now mandatory". I said, "Fine. If another language is mandatory I will take German. Send me to another school or community college so I can learn it because what you just did is highly discriminatory. Almost went to court but the administration backed down...until I graduated. Now days the state has all kinds of immersion studies where kids can go to learn every subject in another language...Always Spanish.

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 07:45
When I was a freshman in high school (early 1980's) the school made some changes. "Due to budgetary concerns French and German will be dropped leaving Spanish...Oh by the way a foreign language is now mandatory". I said, "Fine. If another language is mandatory I will take German. Send me to another school or community college so I can learn it because what you just did is highly discriminatory. Almost went to court but the administration backed down...until I graduated. Now days the state has all kinds of immersion studies where kids can go to learn every subject in another language...Always Spanish.

That's illegal here in Arizona. No "bi-lingual" education, period. Guess what? Everybody learns just fine in English! Still, our teaching of foreign languages as subjects sucks big blue veiners!

bonehead
26 Sep 13,, 08:48
That's illegal here in Arizona. No "bi-lingual" education, period. Guess what? Everybody learns just fine in English! Still, our teaching of foreign languages as subjects sucks big blue veiners!

Those programs are meant for english speaking kids so by the time they get to secondary school they already mastered the basics of a second language, er I mean Spanish.

In my state we already lost a lot of good teachers because they were not bilingual. The school districts want a teacher than can teach in English for the locals, teach again in spanish for those that "have not mastered English yet" then do the lesson a third, fourth and a fifth time for the "special kids" many of which will never get the lesson. After all that the administration wonders why the test scores are dropping for the "normal" kids.

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 14:01
Those programs are meant for english speaking kids so by the time they get to secondary school they already mastered the basics of a second language, er I mean Spanish.

In my state we already lost a lot of good teachers because they were not bilingual. The school districts want a teacher than can teach in English for the locals, teach again in spanish for those that "have not mastered English yet" then do the lesson a third, fourth and a fifth time for the "special kids" many of which will never get the lesson. After all that the administration wonders why the test scores are dropping for the "normal" kids.

Did I tell you I only taught high school for six years after I retired? Can you guess why?

Doktor
26 Sep 13,, 14:37
Did I tell you I only taught high school for six years after I retired? Can you guess why?

Maybe because you got pissed of the system? I have half the fam in schools and I can tell you they are going insane. And that's not from the kids.

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 15:32
Maybe because you got pissed of the system? I have half the fam in schools and I can tell you they are going insane. And that's not from the kids.

In truth, I can tell you it was partly my health, as a lifetime of doing a lot of crap to make the Navy happy started to catch up with me. My joints and spine basically scream, "Don't do be like Mike!"

More to the point though was the petty politics. I mentioned before that I had seen the game played at a very high level by both elected and appointed officials, and Flag and General officers. The stupid antics of school and district administrators were annoying. They were lame and amateurish. One thing I learned early on is that there is a very wide gulf between front line teachers and administrators. Once someone crosses over that line from teacher to administrator, all respect for them is lost. They become the "enemy." They never have your back, and for whatever reason they are always looking for ways to screw with you. It's really ridiculous. So I told them all to go fuck themselves. I've rarely been happier. I don't know how anyone does that for 30 years. I wasn't about to let them ruin my day.

Here is probably the one and only picture of me and my much younger colleagues at work. Note the omnipresent bottle of Diet Coke in front of me. I practically have an IV drip of the stuff 24/7.

34008

bonehead
26 Sep 13,, 18:02
Here is probably the one and only picture of me and my much younger colleagues at work. Note the omnipresent bottle of Diet Coke in front of me. I practically have an IV drip of the stuff 24/7.

34008

You have to taper down and kick the habit. Diet soda is death to the body.

bolo121
28 Sep 13,, 20:49
I just recalled this thread when talking to some relatives visiting from America today.
The lady i talked to pretty much echoed desertswo on how irritating and futile it is to be a teacher in the US.

She used to be a teacher for more than 4 years in English medium expensive private schools.
But in America no use you cant get respect, you cant enforce discipline and no corporal punishment.
Kids are pretty much fearless and the apathy of the administration is soul crushing. She quit after her first year.

She said most of the kids were wasting their potential and could easily be brought in line if she could administer some whacks with her wooden ruler.

kato
28 Sep 13,, 21:49
... and this is why i consider today's (and the upcoming) teacher generation worthless.

No, seriously. I work with student assistants aiming to become teachers who think much the same. With a healthy slapdash of "If they don't learn they're not worth it". I think the above about them regarding that too. And I tell 'em that to their face.

bolo121
29 Sep 13,, 07:11
... and this is why i consider today's (and the upcoming) teacher generation worthless.

No, seriously. I work with student assistants aiming to become teachers who think much the same. With a healthy slapdash of "If they don't learn they're not worth it". I think the above about them regarding that too. And I tell 'em that to their face.

I dont think you got the point she was making. One thing a teacher especially of middle school kids has to do first is establish discipline and order.
The tools for this are taken away from you in America.
The topmost level of teachers who have the ability to persuade and fascinate kids can get by without this, but in any given pool of people they would be maybe 3 or 4%

desertswo
29 Sep 13,, 15:20
I dont think you got the point she was making. One thing a teacher especially of middle school kids has to do first is establish discipline and order.
The tools for this are taken away from you in America.
The topmost level of teachers who have the ability to persuade and fascinate kids can get by without this, but in any given pool of people they would be maybe 3 or 4%

I never had any issues with what is known in the business as "classroom management." You've seen my pictures. Seriously, do I look like someone a kid wants to take on, even on a good day? It's all about attitude and what in the military is known as "command presence." Kids recognize it, even if they don't know why. They want to be lead. No; my issues were solely with the administrators and for reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with the kid's behavior; and everything to do with theirs.

Doktor
29 Sep 13,, 15:50
I never had any issues with what is known in the business as "classroom management." You've seen my pictures. Seriously, do I look like someone a kid wants to take on, even on a good day? It's all about attitude and what in the military is known as "command presence." Kids recognize it, even if they don't know why. They want to be lead. No; my issues were solely with the administrators and for reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with the kid's behavior; and everything to do with theirs.

Mike,

You have seen the world. Most teachers didn't. And you didn't have to take it. For most teachers it's the sole income.

desertswo
29 Sep 13,, 16:24
Mike,

You have seen the world. Most teachers didn't. And you didn't have to take it. For most teachers it's the sole income.

Why do you think I quit? I didn't need the whole $30K they were paying me. I won't tell you what that is in relation to my military retirement pay, but suffice it to say, it's pretty embarrassing.

No, I was merely framing my story. In the district where I worked, we had what was known as "the buddy system." That's where a teacher in one classroom sends his or her "problem child" to someone else's classroom for a "timeout." Guess who was everyone's favorite "buddy?" I didn't mind taking the kid and getting inside their heads. Actually, my own students did that, as they were generally older and looked down upon the interlopers, sort of putting them in their place. I just kept everything moving. The point is that the classroom has to be a bastion of sanity before you can do that. One of the things that I did notice is that most of the problem children were coming from classrooms with young women as teachers. That's not a knock on women and their competency in the classroom; just an objective statement of fact. The boys can be scary. Being that I've been as frightened as I'm ever going to be in this lifetime, there wasn't a whole lot they could do or say to me that would put me off my stride. On the other hand, our music teacher who was a young woman was about as tough as they come. It all kind of depends. Still, there were those days when I had to really get a grip because it wasn't me that had anything to fear; but them. They were just too stupid to know it. On the whole, it was best that I left the profession before I punk-slapped some kid and got myself in real hot water.

bolo121
29 Sep 13,, 16:35
I never had any issues with what is known in the business as "classroom management." You've seen my pictures. Seriously, do I look like someone a kid wants to take on, even on a good day? It's all about attitude and what in the military is known as "command presence." Kids recognize it, even if they don't know why. They want to be lead. No; my issues were solely with the administrators and for reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with the kid's behavior; and everything to do with theirs.

Reminds me of my school's old vice principal Mr Ahmed who was an ex IA Major. He could cause a class of 55 unruly 16 year olds to shut up with just a scowl.
We all knew we could act unruly with our elderly hindi teacher, but word would come to him. Next day we would be out in the hot sun kneeling on our knees for an hour or so.

I still remember back in 8th standard i climbed the boundary wall and bunked for a day. Got one heck of a caning with wooden ruler.

Doktor
29 Sep 13,, 16:42
Physical punishment has nothing to do with discipline...

bolo121
29 Sep 13,, 16:51
Well I dont know about that it worked on me and my much more nasty classmates.
To quote Russel Peters, we always knew that if we violated rules or tried to intimidate weaker teachers "Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad".

desertswo
29 Sep 13,, 17:08
Physical punishment has nothing to do with discipline...

Concur, although I went to Catholic schools in the States through the 12th grade (my 18th year) and back in those days, one of the Augustinian fathers we had in high school could punch your lights out and no one ever said a thing. Why? Because if you went home and said "Father Garret hit me," your parents would counter with, "What did you do to piss him off, asshole?" And then get a beat down from them if one's behavior was egregious enough. And you know what? I wouldn't change a thing. The Disciplinary Vice-Principal, who wasn't a priest, was a retired USMC drill instructor. He never hit anyone. His favorite thing was to have you kneel on one of those three-edged rulers, and then copy down the Marine Corps prayer. Never heard of it? Well, here it is:

Almighty Father, whose command is over all and whose love never fails, make me aware of Thy presence and obedient to Thy will. Keep me true to my best self, guarding me against dishonesty in purpose and deed and helping me to live so that I can face my fellow Marines, my loved ones, and Thee without shame or fear. Protect my family.

Give me the will to do the work of a Marine and to accept my share of responsibilities with vigor and enthusiasm. Grant me the courage to be proficient in my daily performance. Keep me loyal and faithful to my superiors and to the duties my Country and the Marine Corps have entrusted to me. Help me to wear my uniform with dignity, and let it remind me daily of the traditions which I must uphold.

If I am inclined to doubt, steady my faith; if I am tempted, make me strong to resist; if I should miss the mark, give me courage to try again.

Guide me with the light of truth and grant me wisdom by which I may understand the answer to my prayer.

By the time you got to the bottom, you had a deep, painful groove just below your kneecaps and you weren't inclined ever to incur his wrath again. ;)

Mihais
29 Sep 13,, 17:14
Physical punishment has nothing to do with discipline...

On the contrary,it's the most important cause of discipline.

Doktor
29 Sep 13,, 17:45
On the contrary,it's the most important cause of discipline.

That's fear, not discipline. True, they will behave, but they wont study. You may even turn them into robots, yet they wont be able to think.

There has to be mutual respect and trust for kids to absorb and understand what you tell them.

Mihais
29 Sep 13,, 18:07
Yes,but before they can to do anything,they need to behave.When you have their attention,you can teach them.
As ole Niccolo might say,you gotta be both a lion and a fox.

Tamara
30 Sep 13,, 09:54
While I appreciate the comment, I don't like to talk about the universality of the English language because I view it as a very bullshit one-way street. It's great that everyone speaks it, if you come from one of the states in the Anglosphere, but it makes us lazy and what it does in those states with regard to foreign language training is nothing short of monstrous. We are absolute shit when it comes to teaching foreign languages in the US, and I don't imagine it's really any better anywhere else in the UK, Australia; hell even in Canada which is supposed to be a semi-bilingual nation by law, they aren't terribly good at it.
........

Well, in a word.............ICAO, which essentially said the language of civil aviation will be English.

As things go, I learned, no, that's not right, took French in high school. It was rather required because I was competing for scholarships. It has served me well.....because as horrible as I was at it in high school and as mean of a struggle it was, I spent many a lunch hour in the classroom, I didn't have to go through it at the college level. I was exempt because I took it in high school, as a child.

But I can't speak it. I can maybe listen to it if it is slow enough, perhaps read it with enough patience and a dictionary, and I use it in acting, a few select phrases here and there.

Languages are interesting in that here in the southwest, the recommend ones to learn are Spanish and Japanese. I would like to learn Spanish for at least three reasons. The Spanish TV looks so much more interesting than the English TV, I have professional collegues in Mexico, and for the various foreign movies I watch, I want to be hearing the words, connecting it with the speaker, instead of struggling with subtitles to who is saying what.

But.....while I may dream at times in the various languages I have experience with (French, Arabic, Japanese, Tagalog, German (in a negative expodential amount)), I have yet to master that learning link in my pretty head. It is something I need to learn, both from enhancing my resume but probably more in my acting, both from doing it and being able to enjoy that of others. As I said, here in the southwest, Spanish would be a good thing but I can see how my French and Arabic childhood learnings could come into use in the Pacific regions.

As far as by what means, I don't know. In high school, we used the dreaded verb wheels. I have lots of cheaper language books, tapes, CD's at home. I memorize phrases off the Net translators to use in my acting. As far as Rosetta Stone goes, well call me paranoid, but I have a high level of mistrust of advertising especially when it comes to that advertising where they say all the people that use their product. When it comes to spending that much money, I don't want to find that their definition of learning to accomplish the goal is far, far different than mine.

bonehead
30 Sep 13,, 15:03
I never had any issues with what is known in the business as "classroom management." You've seen my pictures. Seriously, do I look like someone a kid wants to take on, even on a good day? It's all about attitude and what in the military is known as "command presence." Kids recognize it, even if they don't know why. They want to be lead. No; my issues were solely with the administrators and for reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with the kid's behavior; and everything to do with theirs.

You would have had fun in a small town near Eugene. The administrators issue a whip and chair as standard issue. They even offer combat pay to get teachers to come in and baby sit the riots for a year.

bonehead
30 Sep 13,, 15:13
Concur, although I went to Catholic schools in the States through the 12th grade (my 18th year) and back in those days, one of the Augustinian fathers we had in high school could punch your lights out and no one ever said a thing. Why? Because if you went home and said "Father Garret hit me," your parents would counter with, "What did you do to piss him off, asshole?" And then get a beat down from them if one's behavior was egregious enough. And you know what? I wouldn't change a thing. The Disciplinary Vice-Principal, who wasn't a priest, was a retired USMC drill instructor. He never hit anyone. His favorite thing was to have you kneel on one of those three-edged rulers, and then copy down the Marine Corps prayer. Never heard of it? Well, here it is:

Almighty Father, whose command is over all and whose love never fails, make me aware of Thy presence and obedient to Thy will. Keep me true to my best self, guarding me against dishonesty in purpose and deed and helping me to live so that I can face my fellow Marines, my loved ones, and Thee without shame or fear. Protect my family.

Give me the will to do the work of a Marine and to accept my share of responsibilities with vigor and enthusiasm. Grant me the courage to be proficient in my daily performance. Keep me loyal and faithful to my superiors and to the duties my Country and the Marine Corps have entrusted to me. Help me to wear my uniform with dignity, and let it remind me daily of the traditions which I must uphold.

If I am inclined to doubt, steady my faith; if I am tempted, make me strong to resist; if I should miss the mark, give me courage to try again.

Guide me with the light of truth and grant me wisdom by which I may understand the answer to my prayer.

By the time you got to the bottom, you had a deep, painful groove just below your kneecaps and you weren't inclined ever to incur his wrath again. ;)




That sounds like my public Jr High in Illinois. Some of the teachers were vets from Nam and a couple were ex NFL types. I watched the dean play softball. He wouldn't just hit a home run he literally crushed the ball. His office was small and paddling was allowed. No way in hell was I ever going in there for disciplinary issues. No teacher took any crap from any student and discipline was handed out automatically. Although there were some issues by and large it was an orderly place where you could learn.

Blademaster
30 Sep 13,, 18:58
What happened that physical discipline was no longer allowed. Was it because of some stupid principals or teachers that went overboard with excessive physical discipline.

I always follow the dictum, "If you are going to use physical discipline, the only time you can do it is when you are calm and not angry and you are applying it for deterrence, not punishment."

I prefer to use humiliation as my number one tool because teenagers are always about image. If you break their image and threaten to do it again, 90% of the time, they will comply.

To restore discipline, we have to start enforcing the idea that talking back to teachers or giving crap or shit to teachers and educators will be seriously bad for your image.

antimony
30 Sep 13,, 19:07
What happened that physical discipline was no longer allowed. Was it because of some stupid principals or teachers that went overboard with excessive physical discipline.

I always follow the dictum, "If you are going to use physical discipline, the only time you can do it is when you are calm and not angry and you are applying it for deterrence, not punishment."


I am not against corporal punishment, but spanking as deterrence seems just sadistic

Blademaster
30 Sep 13,, 19:12
I am not against corporal punishment, but spanking as deterrence seems just sadistic

it is not sadistic. You only apply the discipline to deter the act or behavior that necessitated the action in the first place after all verbal and passive attempts to correct the behavior has failed.

it is not the first resort but a last resort. By the way, proper spanking in front of the class imparts no permanent harm, only bruised egos or pride. So how is that sadistic?

antimony
30 Sep 13,, 19:34
it is not sadistic. You only apply the discipline to deter the act or behavior that necessitated the action in the first place after all verbal and passive attempts to correct the behavior has failed.

it is not the first resort but a last resort. By the way, proper spanking in front of the class imparts no permanent harm, only bruised egos or pride. So how is that sadistic?

Ok, when you said deterrence I thought spanking without any underlying disciplinary event.

bonehead
30 Sep 13,, 19:38
"Spare the rod and spoil the child" We can see the effects of non corporal punishment all through society. Kids are no longer had the manners as their predecessors. Kids to need some solid rules and boundaries but that is all too often lacking in today's schools. The prevailing thought was to "preserve the kid's self esteem" The problem is that the kids changed their standards. Self esteem is no longer getting an "A". It is all about dissing the teacher and swinging the dick aka thuggery. My old Jr high did use paddling as a last resort but much of the consequences were automatic and mandatory. You were late to class without an excuse and you knew that the following afternoon you were going to sit in detention. Same for talking back to a teacher.

Doktor
30 Sep 13,, 20:58
"Spare the rod and spoil the child" We can see the effects of non corporal punishment all through society. Kids are no longer had the manners as their predecessors. Kids to need some solid rules and boundaries but that is all too often lacking in today's schools. The prevailing thought was to "preserve the kid's self esteem" The problem is that the kids changed their standards. Self esteem is no longer getting an "A". It is all about dissing the teacher and swinging the dick aka thuggery. My old Jr high did use paddling as a last resort but much of the consequences were automatic and mandatory. You were late to class without an excuse and you knew that the following afternoon you were going to sit in detention. Same for talking back to a teacher.

Kids not having the manners is a result on their role models, be it from TV, net, hood or from home.

bonehead
30 Sep 13,, 23:47
Kids not having the manners is a result on their role models, be it from TV, net, hood or from home.

They need good example to be sure. They also need to be encouraged to do the right thing vs the popular thing.

Tamara
01 Oct 13,, 08:41
Kids not having the manners is a result on their role models, be it from TV, net, hood or from home.

The catch with role models is that one may not have the whole story for the person they pick to be their idol. There are a lot of people one can point to and say they are a poor role model because of the effect they have on others but how can one tell if their good role model is really that good of a person to follow? It doesn't have to mean that the selected has a dirty secret love life; it just may be that to achieve the kind of life that others look at in respect may have been achieved at a high price, a personal hell that should not be wished upon anyone, but particularly the young.

All that said, it is probably best that they pick a parent or elder relative for they are the ones they probably know the most about.....................................

..............................assuming, of course, that the parent is worthy of such.