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Parihaka
12 Sep 13,, 23:58
I've been hanging off making predictions and comments on this because there's been a lot of variables and possible explanations as to why the racing has thus far gone the way it has, but I think one by one those explanations have been knocked down.
It's not crew, they are all professionals and the best in the business. It's not tactics, the switch of the Oracle tacticians produced exactly the same result and again, they're all professionals. It's not luck, you don't go 6-1 up by luck.

Design, design, design.

Pre regatta when the boats first took to the water much comment was made over the thoroughbred look of Oracle, thin, fined down, light bowed, highly tuned.
Aotearoa on the other hand was compared to a Massey Ferguson (tractor), heavy in the bow, weightier, amateurish.

What we've seen of course is Oracle bury her leward bow ever time she tacks, come down off her foils and loose 5 - 10 seconds through every tack. the Aotearoa crew have become so proficient they can now regularly foil through the tack and only loose half the speed Oracle do.

Design, design, design.

33813

Awesome sailing. I used to feel thrilled doing 7 or 8 knots in a keeler. These guys will hit 50 sometime soon.

dave lukins
13 Sep 13,, 00:31
I watched the racing the other day and when I saw it come out of the water I thought it would take off. Great racing and was fun to watch.

Parihaka
13 Sep 13,, 00:39
This gives a much better view of how she's rigged and those 'heavy' bows

33814

Parihaka
13 Sep 13,, 00:49
And here's Oracle showing the much smaller bows with corresponding foil style

33815

Stitch
13 Sep 13,, 02:32
I had no idea those things rode on hydrofoils at speed. So, what's the theory behind having only three 'foils in the water at a time? Reduced drag?

Parihaka
13 Sep 13,, 04:07
I had no idea those things rode on hydrofoils at speed. So, what's the theory behind having only three 'foils in the water at a time? Reduced drag?

The two aft ones aren't foils, they're rudders. They do have a small asymmetrical wing on the base of them though to act as a stabilizer, to prevent the boat rocking or tipping fore/aft on the foil.
Unless they're running directly down wind, the boat is totally supported by just the one foil while the other is pulled up clear of the water.

Here's a shot where they overdid it showing the windward rudder totally clear of the water. Not optimal

33816

bonehead
13 Sep 13,, 05:59
The two aft ones aren't foils, they're rudders. They do have a small asymmetrical wing on the base of them though to act as a stabilizer, to prevent the boat rocking or tipping fore/aft on the foil.
Unless they're running directly down wind, the boat is totally supported by just the one foil while the other is pulled up clear of the water.

Here's a shot where they overdid it showing the windward rudder totally clear of the water. Not optimal

33816

Yeah. Tell me no one needed a new pair of underwear after that.

After being caught cheating I can't back oracle. Hoping the kiwis continue to roll. I do miss the single hull designs of yesteryear.

tbm3fan
17 Sep 13,, 23:17
I can tell you now, living in the Bay Area, that most are rooting against Larry, I mean Oracle. Actually most can't stand Larry so anything that slaps him down a notch will be greatly appreciated. It is too bad he had to represent the U.S.

Parihaka
18 Sep 13,, 01:11
Yeah. Tell me no one needed a new pair of underwear after that.
After I posted that the boys got a bit more carried away

33939

The last couple of races have been awesome. Oracle made some dramatic changes to their foils and bowsprit plus sheer balls-to-the-wall sailing on their part in high winds saw them take two races in a row. Great match racing, plus an Americas Cup record for number of times the lead changed in a single race. Coolness.

Parihaka
18 Sep 13,, 01:14
Two sensational races


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN8ykSNoanI&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL4jyS1DaVhX9ndkmopx-1sP_-a2eM19Mj

bonehead
18 Sep 13,, 04:19
After I posted that the boys got a bit more carried away

33939

The last couple of races have been awesome. Oracle made some dramatic changes to their foils and bowsprit plus sheer balls-to-the-wall sailing on their part in high winds saw them take two races in a row. Great match racing, plus an Americas Cup record for number of times the lead changed in a single race. Coolness.

Oracle had nothing to lose by making some changes so late in the match. Looks like they guessed right.

Blademaster
18 Sep 13,, 05:50
It seems counterintuitive that in order to go faster the sail must be close as possible to being parallel with the wind. How does a boat travel faster than the wind? I need a layman's answer not technical gobblygook. My brain is tired from thinking too much on law stuff.

Officer of Engineers
18 Sep 13,, 06:03
F=ma

Blademaster
18 Sep 13,, 06:24
F=ma

I said laymans terms not math gobblygook stuff. My brain is too tired to think hard

Parihaka
18 Sep 13,, 06:29
The sails are wings and sorry but yes F=MA. Hint: the greater the sail area, the greater the force.

Officer of Engineers
18 Sep 13,, 06:42
I said laymans terms not math gobblygook stuff. My brain is too tired to think hardGentlemen, we have lost Hitesh to the Dark Side. He has no doubt became a lawyer. He is arguing against Newton's Laws.

tbm3fan
18 Sep 13,, 08:57
It seems counterintuitive that in order to go faster the sail must be close as possible to being parallel with the wind. How does a boat travel faster than the wind? I need a layman's answer not technical gobblygook. My brain is tired from thinking too much on law stuff.

How Do These Boats Sail Faster Than the Wind? | Science | KQED Public Media for Northern CA (http://blogs.kqed.org/science/2013/09/11/how-do-these-boats-sail-faster-than-the-wind/)

http://www.aip.org/dbis/stories/2007/17133.html

Blademaster
18 Sep 13,, 15:31
Thanks for the primer. Now I get the concept and can utilize the equations given.

Parihaka
24 Sep 13,, 23:58
Unbelievable scenes, at least it would be if I wasn't such a cynic. Oracle have now won seven races in a row, it's 8 all and the NZ boat has gone slower and slower in every race for the conditions. Oi vey.

tbm3fan
25 Sep 13,, 05:01
Damn. I'm torn like everyone else around here. Yea, USA, boooo Larry.

This is Larry:Larry Ellison blows off Oracle OpenWorld crowd to watch America’s Cup | The Technology Chronicles | an SFGate.com blog (http://blog.sfgate.com/techchron/2013/09/24/larry-ellison-blows-off-oracle-openworld-crowd-to-watch-americas-cup/)

bonehead
25 Sep 13,, 17:44
Unbelievable scenes, at least it would be if I wasn't such a cynic. Oracle have now won seven races in a row, it's 8 all and the NZ boat has gone slower and slower in every race for the conditions. Oi vey.

The whole thing smells fishy to me. I hope they are not fixing the races to keep interest up.

bonehead
26 Sep 13,, 04:19
Wow. No one makes that kind of a comeback in racing....until now. Oracle pulls away for the big win. I feel sorry for the kiwis. So close...so very close but they walk away empty handed. I really want to know what happened to their boat. Different tactics? physical change? Did Oracle slip and anchor to it?

Parihaka
26 Sep 13,, 05:22
Wow. No one makes that kind of a comeback in racing....until now. Oracle pulls away for the big win. I feel sorry for the kiwis. So close...so very close but they walk away empty handed. I really want to know what happened to their boat. Different tactics? physical change? Did Oracle slip and anchor to it?

The word from the NZ Oracle boat designers is they incorporated a computer control system on the hydraulics to balance the boat, eliminating manual control of the foils, rudders etc. It could react much faster than the human controlled system and keep the boat foiling for much longer up wind

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 07:51
The word from the NZ Oracle boat designers is they incorporated a computer control system on the hydraulics to balance the boat, eliminating manual control of the foils, rudders etc. It could react much faster than the human controlled system and keep the boat foiling for much longer up wind

You know, I used to give a shit about the America's Cup, having lived most of my life in either San Diego or Newport, Rhode Island, it was kind of hard not to. However, with each successive challenge the technology has come to dominate things in my view, rather than real skill at seamanship; the computer system you mention being yet another example. Why don't we take the man out of the equation altogether?

bonehead
26 Sep 13,, 08:36
The word from the NZ Oracle boat designers is they incorporated a computer control system on the hydraulics to balance the boat, eliminating manual control of the foils, rudders etc. It could react much faster than the human controlled system and keep the boat foiling for much longer up wind

That doesn't explain why the Kiwis were running slower than at the start of the competition.

bonehead
26 Sep 13,, 08:38
You know, I used to give a shit about the America's Cup, having lived most of my life in either San Diego or Newport, Rhode Island, it was kind of hard not to. However, with each successive challenge the technology has come to dominate things in my view, rather than real skill at seamanship; the computer system you mention being yet another example. Why don't we take the man out of the equation altogether?

It does look like the drones are on the way. It will be a sad day when "sailers" are actually pimple faced teenage gamers in their parents basement.

Parihaka
26 Sep 13,, 09:23
That doesn't explain why the Kiwis were running slower than at the start of the competition.

No indeed it doesn't but I don't get to voice that view here in NZ as it seems to be treason to suggest they may have been paid to throw the series. The other piece of gossip, and I stress gossip, I have been privy to was the day before the kiwi boat lost the first of eight straight the team headquarters in Auckland received a visit from some of the top managers and lawyers from Oracle the company. Guess well just have to see where the funding comes from if what was Team New Zealand mounts another challenge.

Parihaka
26 Sep 13,, 09:24
You know, I used to give a shit about the America's Cup, having lived most of my life in either San Diego or Newport, Rhode Island, it was kind of hard not to. However, with each successive challenge the technology has come to dominate things in my view, rather than real skill at seamanship; the computer system you mention being yet another example. Why don't we take the man out of the equation altogether?
That does seem to be the logical outcome of the current path.

bonehead
26 Sep 13,, 10:20
No indeed it doesn't but I don't get to voice that view here in NZ as it seems to be treason to suggest they may have been paid to throw the series. The other piece of gossip, and I stress gossip, I have been privy to was the day before the kiwi boat lost the first of eight straight the team headquarters in Auckland received a visit from some of the top managers and lawyers from Oracle the company. Guess well just have to see where the funding comes from if what was Team New Zealand mounts another challenge.

It is possible they made some minor tweaks that didn't pan out. It just seems so very odd to be so dominate in the beginning then lose so many times in a row when only a single victory would have brought home the trophy.

Bigfella
26 Sep 13,, 10:42
No indeed it doesn't but I don't get to voice that view here in NZ as it seems to be treason to suggest they may have been paid to throw the series. The other piece of gossip, and I stress gossip, I have been privy to was the day before the kiwi boat lost the first of eight straight the team headquarters in Auckland received a visit from some of the top managers and lawyers from Oracle the company. Guess well just have to see where the funding comes from if what was Team New Zealand mounts another challenge.

Clearly the big mistake was appointing Jana Novotna, Greg Norman & Billy Buckner as team psychologists. :biggrin: When given the choice between conspiracy & 'one of the worst chokes in sporting history', always go for the choke. NZ losing & an Aussie skippering the US boat finally got this story into the news here. I could pretend we are all gutted in solidarity with our trans-Tasman cousins.....but Pari wouldn't believe me.

Think of it this way Pari, if you'd won the whole series would have been forgotten in a few years. This way it will live on forever.

Doktor
26 Sep 13,, 11:04
You know, I used to give a shit about the America's Cup, having lived most of my life in either San Diego or Newport, Rhode Island, it was kind of hard not to. However, with each successive challenge the technology has come to dominate things in my view, rather than real skill at seamanship; the computer system you mention being yet another example. Why don't we take the man out of the equation altogether?

Because it wont get the attention. Only humans can make some cluster******s and no machine can replicate or even predict them.

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 14:07
Because it wont get the attention. Only humans can make some cluster******s and no machine can replicate or even predict them.

It's not getting any attention now, even with the "historic comeback." There are no real "personalities" in this thing, like Ted Turner, or San Diego's Dennis Conner, who was an acquired taste, even for a native San Diegan like me. It's bland, mechanized, and frankly boring. Much like a lot of what I used to do for a living (and the defense of my country).

Doktor
26 Sep 13,, 14:35
My comment was mainly we don't see robots racing, or computers playing chess... simply because it's plain boring.

Much like F1. Whenever I wanna have a nice Sunday 2pm nap, I switch to it, see the start, have a nap (the monotone noise is great for falling a sleep) and then wake up to see the finish. I have watched entire race, plus I am fresh ;)

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 15:41
My comment was mainly we don't see robots racing, or computers playing chess... simply because it's plain boring.

Much like F1. Whenever I wanna have a nice Sunday 2pm nap, I switch to it, see the start, have a nap (the monotone noise is great for falling a sleep) and then wake up to see the finish. I have watched entire race, plus I am fresh ;)

Man, you need some NASCAR to keep you awake. Totally different kind of racing, and trust me, a totally different kind of crowd watching it. That's part of the show in itself! ;)

Albany Rifles
26 Sep 13,, 15:42
Didn't see that coming.

And like the good captain said, the AC meant something back in the days of Captain Outrageous...now, meh.

One of my favorite memories of the AC came far from water. When I was in the Infantry Office Advanced Course is was right after the Ozzies had won it for the first time. We had an Australian Army major as a staff instructor in tactics. In our first lecture from him he started with the lights dim (200 man classroom) and we started to hear the theme song from JAWS over the speakers. Then on these 40 foot screens flashed big white letters on a black background JUST WHEN THE YANKS THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO GO BACK INTO THE WATER! and the the picture flashed to the Ozzie secret weapon....the winged keel sticking out of the water like a sharks fin. We had a good laugh.

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 15:48
Didn't see that coming.

And like the good captain said, the AC meant something back in the days of Captain Outrageous...now, meh.

One of my favorite memories of the AC came far from water. When I was in the Infantry Office Advanced Course is was right after the Ozzies had won it for the first time. We had an Australian Army major as a staff instructor in tactics. In our first lecture from him he started with the lights dim (200 man classroom) and we started to hear the theme song from JAWS over the speakers. Then on these 40 foot screens flashed big white letters on a black background JUST WHEN THE YANKS THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO GO BACK INTO THE WATER! and the the picture flashed to the Ozzie secret weapon....the winged keel sticking out of the water like a sharks fin. We had a good laugh.

It was that damned keel that started the slide, and here we are with freaking catamaran's for Christ's sake. It's like watching Joe Shittheragman on any weekend on San Diego's Mission Bay. Seriously, I didn't even know who retained the cup and who was challenging until things got "interesting." Oracle may have won, but I don't begrudge our Antipodean friends for believing they got jobbed. Too many weird things going down, and like most people in the military, I don't believe in coincidences.

Doktor
26 Sep 13,, 15:52
Man, you need some NASCAR to keep you awake. Totally different kind of racing, and trust me, a totally different kind of crowd watching it. That's part of the show in itself! ;)

Hmmm... don't you guys have hockey for that?

Anyway, from motorsports I am more of a WRC / Moto GP / WTCC spectator.

Albany Rifles
26 Sep 13,, 15:56
Dok,

He's from SAn Diego...the only thing he knows about ice is what he puts in a cocktail!

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 16:25
Dok,

He's from SAn Diego...the only thing he knows about ice is what he puts in a cocktail!

Keep me in Margaritas on the rocks and I'm yours for life!

However, please allow me to add that I lived in Newport for six years and another three in Northern Virginia. I do know a little bit about ice, other than keeping my drinks cold. ;)

bonehead
26 Sep 13,, 17:55
It's not getting any attention now, even with the "historic comeback." There are no real "personalities" in this thing, like Ted Turner, or San Diego's Dennis Conner, who was an acquired taste, even for a native San Diegan like me. It's bland, mechanized, and frankly boring. Much like a lot of what I used to do for a living (and the defense of my country).

It it quite the rich man's sport. Put a cap of 100K on the boat and give the other 99% a shot at playing the game... interest will pick up. Even if people tune in to see all the sailors who think they can sail.

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 21:02
It it quite the rich man's sport. Put a cap of 100K on the boat and give the other 99% a shot at playing the game... interest will pick up. Even if people tune in to see all the sailors who think they can sail.

That's actually quite correct. Dennis Conner was not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. I believe he had a family owned upholstery business. He had to hustle to raise money back in the 80s just to help mount a challenge. The fact that he was successful had more to do with his actual skill on the water than in gripping and grinning. Like I said, he was an acquired taste at best, although he was successful at that too.

Parihaka
26 Sep 13,, 21:42
That's actually quite correct. Dennis Conner was not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. I believe he had a family owned upholstery business. He had to hustle to raise money back in the 80s just to help mount a challenge. The fact that he was successful had more to do with his actual skill on the water than in gripping and grinning. Like I said, he was an acquired taste at best, although he was successful at that too.

I liked him. The press liked to paint him evil here but the man could sail.

desertswo
26 Sep 13,, 21:56
I liked him. The press liked to paint him evil here but the man could sail.

Exactly!!! He was a hell of a sailor!! And that's what this event should be about; the skill of the crews and not the sexy technology. Like I said, it used to mean something to me. Now, I barely notice, and had "the big comeback" not become something of an issue, I wouldn't be talking to you about this now.

Parihaka
26 Sep 13,, 23:27
Exactly!!! He was a hell of a sailor!! And that's what this event should be about; the skill of the crews and not the sexy technology. Like I said, it used to mean something to me. Now, I barely notice, and had "the big comeback" not become something of an issue, I wouldn't be talking to you about this now.

My interest in this event was spurred by the technology, all that mass and force supported in the water by nothing more than a skinny wee foil. Even Oracles stabilization software is fascinating, but you are quite correct, it has nothing to do with a sailing competition. It was a technology show, pure and simple.

dave lukins
27 Sep 13,, 00:37
NZ losing & an Aussie skippering the US boat finally got this story into the news here.

Not to mention a brilliant British tactician :rolleyes:

tbm3fan
27 Sep 13,, 08:30
Not to mention a brilliant British tactician :rolleyes:

As with tech being the main theme it also has nothing to do with one national team versus another. What made the American team American and the Kiwi team Kiwi? Other than the grunt work done by the sailors it was Oracle and Emirates with the bucks.

dave lukins
27 Sep 13,, 20:30
It was edge of seat watching and great to see the how advanced these craft have become. I would gladly pay to have a trip around the Bay on one.

desertswo
27 Sep 13,, 21:44
Not to mention a brilliant British tactician :rolleyes:

Which further diminishes the competition in my view. No disrespect to the UK or your fellow countrymen, but who cares? Has far as I'm concerned they ought to go back to wooden hulls and crews made up solely of citizens from the countries defending the Cup or mounting the challenge. Prove their real skill as sailors that way, and not merely as a bunch of people minding the computers that are doing all the real thinking and even much of the scut work for them.

Blademaster
27 Sep 13,, 22:06
Which further diminishes the competition in my view. No disrespect to the UK or your fellow countrymen, but who cares? Has far as I'm concerned they ought to go back to wooden hulls and crews made up solely of citizens from the countries defending the Cup or mounting the challenge. Prove their real skill as sailors that way, and not merely as a bunch of people minding the computers that are doing all the real thinking and even much of the scut work for them.

Perhaps the sailing race commission should enact the sort of rules that NASCAR or Formula One took to prevent too much of a technological edge. But like car racing, in the sailing world, it is all about pushing the envelope.

dave lukins
28 Sep 13,, 00:16
Which further diminishes the competition in my view. No disrespect to the UK or your fellow countrymen, but who cares? Has far as I'm concerned they ought to go back to wooden hulls and crews made up solely of citizens from the countries defending the Cup or mounting the challenge. Prove their real skill as sailors that way, and not merely as a bunch of people minding the computers that are doing all the real thinking and even much of the scut work for them.

I agree wholeheartedly...Plus American Team should be American...New Zealand Team should be crewed by New Zealanders. When I watched the race a few days ago I was surprised to see a Brit (Ainsley) and an Aus (Spithill) and I thought then, and mentioned it to others, that it took the shine off the race and the competition. We have the same in our England Cricket Team. If you look at the members of the 30-strong England Performance Squad named for the 2013 international summer, no fewer than eight were South African by birth.

Blademaster
28 Sep 13,, 00:23
I agree wholeheartedly...Plus American Team should be American...New Zealand Team should be crewed by New Zealanders. When I watched the race a few days ago I was surprised to see a Brit (Ainsley) and an Aus (Spithill) and I thought then, and mentioned it to others, that it took the shine off the race and the competition. We have the same in our England Cricket Team. If you look at the members of the 30-strong England Performance Squad named for the 2013 international summer, no fewer than eight were South African by birth.

What can I say? :biggrin: It is a global village, after all. It must be true 'cuz the One said so. :biggrin: