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Dreadnought
14 Aug 13,, 06:42
Just saw this....

18 Indian sailors feared trapped after submarine explosion, sinking
Published August 14, 2013

FoxNews.com

The Indian Navy's Sindhurakshak submarine is seen in Visakhapatnam in this February 13, 2006 file photo. (REUTERS)
18 Indian sailors are believed to be trapped on board a naval submarine after the vessel sank following an explosion and fire at its home port of Mumbai early Wednesday.

"There are some people who are trapped on board, we are in the process of trying to rescue them, we suspect it to be in the range of 18," Indian naval spokesman PVS Satish told Reuters. "We will not give up until we get to them."

Indian news channel NDTV said a loud explosion was heard and a huge flame leapt up in the sky. Nearly a dozen fire engines rushed to the dockyard to douse the fire, it said.

After the fire, the sub, identified as the Indian Naval Ship (INS) Sindhurakshak, was submerged at its berth in the naval dockyard with only a portion visible above the surface. The 16-year-old submarine had recently returned from Russia, where it was made, after undergoing an overhaul and upgrade, Rahul Bedi, an analyst for the independent Jane's Information Group, told the Associated Press.

India has 14 diesel-powered submarines, Bedi said.

Another navy spokesman told the Associated Press the cause of the explosion is being investigated. The incident took place before India's Independence Day celebrations, and authorities have been on high alert for possible terror attacks.

Last year, India acquired a Russian Nerpa nuclear submarine for its navy on a 10-year lease from Russia at a total cost of nearly $1 billion.

On Saturday, India activated the atomic reactor on its first indigenously designed and built nuclear submarine, which the navy could deploy in the next two years.

India has steadily built up its naval capabilities in recent years, spurred by its rivalry with neighboring China.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.



Read more: 18 Indian sailors feared trapped after submarine explosion, sinking | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/14/indian-naval-submarine-sinks-catches-fire/#ixzz2buogCUCu)

Tronic
14 Aug 13,, 07:18
The 16-year-old submarine had recently returned from Russia, where it was made, after undergoing an overhaul and upgrade, Rahul Bedi, an analyst for the independent Jane's Information Group, told the Associated Press.

It was sent to Russia for an overhaul after an explosion in it's battery compartment in 2010. The Gorky's boiler exploded during trials, and now this... Russians really seem to be enforcing quite a reputation.

lemontree
14 Aug 13,, 07:49
Very unfortunate, for the officers and men who are yet missing.

Doktor
14 Aug 13,, 08:53
Very unfortunate. I pray that the sailors are rescued in time, tho latest news are very pessimistic.

Oracle
14 Aug 13,, 10:09
Fire-ravaged Indian Navy submarine sinks, Antony confirms deaths (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Fire-ravaged-Indian-Navy-submarine-sinks-Antony-confirms-deaths/articleshow/21819584.cms)


MUMBAI: Defence minister AK Antony on Wednesday said that he feels sad about the sailors who lost their lives in the fire on an Indian Navy submarine in Mumbai.

"I feel sad about those Navy personnel who lost their lives for the country," Antony told reporters outside Parliament.

In a major setback to the Indian Navy, a submarine caught fire after a massive explosion and sank in the dockyard here early on Wednesday, with the fate of 18 personnel, including three officers, on board remaining uncertain.

The explosion resulted in a major fire breaking out on board INS Sindhurakshak, a Russian-made Kilo class submarine of the Indian Navy, shortly after midnight, they said.

The fate of 18 persons on board the 2,300 tonne submarine, powered by a combination of diesel generators and electric batteries, is being ascertained, a defence spokesperson said. The Navy has ordered a board of inquiry to probe the explosion and subsequent fire in the submarine, he said.

Fire tenders from the Naval dockyard as well as the Mumbai Fire Brigade were immediately pressed into action, he said.

However, due to the explosion, the submarine has submerged at the dock with only a portion visible above the surface, a defence statement said.

TV footage of the incident showed a huge ball of fire triggered by the explosion lighting up the night sky in Colaba area where the Navy dockyard is located.

The statement said efforts are on to ascertain the safety of the personnel and salvage the submarine.

Navy chief Admiral D K Joshi is on his way to Mumbai. The submarine had returned after a major upgrade programme in Russia 3-4 months ago and was capable of carrying a potent weapons package including the anti-ship 'Club' missiles.

INS Sindhurakshak was not on active duty at the time of the accident, Navy sources said.

The incident has come at a time when the Navy is faced with a depleting submarine fleet.

Commodore (retd) Uday Bhaskar, a former IDSA director, said since the rate of induction of new platforms has not kept up with the kind of wear and tear that a submarine would undertake, the net result is that the Navy's submarine fleet is depleting and the operation load is increasing.

"The fact that the Sindhurakshak (incident) has happened, it is going to have its own adverse impact," he said.

In Delhi, defence minister A K Antony briefed Prime Minister Manmohan Singh about the mishap. Antony told reporters in Parliament that he will be going to Mumbai on Wednesday.

Vice Admiral (retd) A K Singh said an internal explosion in a submarine could be caused by either material failure or by not following standard operating procedure.

He said he suspected that hydrogen gas generated during charging of the batteries of the submarine could have led to the fire which could have spread to the missile compartment area of the warship, causing the massive explosion.

In 2010, a fire broke out on board INS Sindhurakshak leaving a sailor dead and two others injured. That mishap was caused by an explosion in its battery compartment.

India had bought the submarine from Russia as part of a deal in the early 1980s and the warship was commissioned in 1997. It was the ninth of the 10 'Sindhugosh' class diesel- electric vessels that the Navy has in its 16-strong submarine fleet.

In the last few years, there have been several mishaps involving naval vessels. In 2008, another vessel of the Kilo class, INS Sindhugosh, collided with a merchant vessel off Mumbai while participating in a naval exercise.

In 2011, a surface warship INS Vindhyagiri caught fire when it collided with a merchant vessel near the Mumbai harbour while returning from a picnic with families of group of officers deployed on board.

On its way back, it hit another ship leaving the harbour. Nobody was injured but the warship was virtually ruined.

May their soul R.I.P.

And may the Lord grant some wisdom to the lunatic bunch of Indian politicians to speed up various defence acquisition processes.

Oracle
14 Aug 13,, 10:21
Russia says Indian submarine was fine after refit (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/and/nation/Russia-says-Indian-submarine-was-fine-after-refit/articleshow/21819899.cms)


MOSCOW: The Russian firm that refitted an Indian submarine which exploded and sank in a Mumbai dock with 18 sailors on board said Wednesday the craft had been fully operational when returned to India in January.

A spokesman for the Russian Zvyozdochka ship repair company told RIA Novosti that "certain concerns" were raised when the Russian-made INS Sindhurakshak was inspected by experts at the Severonisk port on the Barents Sea.

But he said India raised no objections about the state of the diesel-powered vessel when receiving it from Russia.

"We signed a contract for a light overhaul and modernisation in June 2010, and completed (the refit) in January 2013," the unidentified Zvyozdochka spokesman told RIA Novosti.

"During the repairs, we fitted a new Club rocket complex and a number of foreign systems on the ship, including Indian ones."

The spokesman said these included updates to the submarine's navigation and communication systems as well as an overhaul of its power generator.

The INS Sindhurakshak is still covered by a Russian warranty and eight Zvyozdochka employees were currently in the Mumbai port where the vessel sank early Wednesday.

"We still have no information about what really happened there," the Zvyozdochka spokesman said.

payeng
14 Aug 13,, 10:45
It was sent to Russia for an overhaul after an explosion in it's battery compartment in 2010. The Gorky's boiler exploded during trials, and now this... Russians really seem to be enforcing quite a reputation.
I wont come to a conclusion so soon without a prior inquiry report.

classical1939
14 Aug 13,, 11:24
Rest in Peace...





INS Sindhurakshak lost in fire, sailors feared dead

Eighteen Indian sailors were trapped and some killed after an explosion and a fire on a diesel-powered submarine berthed at the naval dockyard here early on Wednesday.

The blast and fire on INS Sindhurakshak — a kilo class submarine that had undergone a major refit at Russia’s Zvezdochka shipyard — is Indian Navy’s worst-ever tragedy.

Defence minister AK Antony said crew members inside INS Sindhurakshak had died. “I am saddened at the loss of life of naval personnel in the service of the country,” said Antony. He gave no details.

Among the 18 trapped submariners are three officers. Those injured because of the explosion were taken to INHS Ashwini hospital where they are undergoing treatment.

“There are some people who are trapped on board, we are in the process of trying to rescue them,” said navy spokesman PVS Satish. “We will not give up until we get to them.”

Fire tenders from the dockyard as well as Mumbai, along with a team of naval experts, are carrying out rescue operations.

INS Sindhurakshak was 15 to 20 metres away from the jetty in the sea when the incident took place.A naval release said due to as yet unknown damage suffered as a result of the explosion, the submarine has submerged at her berth with only a portion visible above the surface.A board of inquiry was being instituted to investigate into the causes of the explosion just after midnight, which was likely an accident, the Navy said.The incident, the worst ever for the Navy’s sub-surface arm, raised memories of the explosion on the Russian nuclear attack submarine Kursk which sank to the bottom of the Barents Sea in 2000, killing all 118 crew members.

Typically, such a submarine is fitted with torpedoes and missiles. Torpedoes are launched underwater to attack other submarines while missiles are used for long ranges above water.There was no immediate word on the status of the weapons on board the Sindhurakshak.“Lot of things are in very close proximity, there is fuel, there is hydrogen, there is oxygen, there are weapons with high explosives on board,” said retired Indian Navy chief Arun Prakash.“So a slightest mistake or slightest accident can trigger off a huge accident. The question of sabotage — I mean, all possibilities have to be considered - but sabotage is the probably the last possibility.”


This is not the first time that an incident has happened aboard Sidhurakshak: there was a similar explosion when the warship was docked in Visakhapatnam in February 2010 which killed a crew member was left two injured.Earlier this year, when INS Sindhurakshak was on its way back to India, after taking the delivery from Russia in January 2013, it ran into rough weather near Egypt.A distress call in May 2013 had then seen the Egyptian Navy tow the submarine to its dockyard, where repairs had to be undertaken.Armed with latest multi-role missile system, radar and electronics, the submarine was to be the backbone of the Indian Navy

Especially because the submarine had undergone an $80 million dollar refit that saw the submarine’s hull being overhauled, installation of upgraded electronic warfare and weapons control systems, mounting of Indian-made sonar USHUS and radio communication systems.

But naval experts believed the submarine to act as a game changer because the vessel was fitted with the Club-S multi-role missile system capable of eliminating targets at a distance of over 250km.

The submarine was under consideration to be equipped with the Brahmos cruise missiles. INS Sindhurakshak, a Type 877EKM in Russia, was constructed at St Petersburg in 1997.The submarine was designed to patrol and to protect naval communications, assault warships, enemy submarines, land targets and perform naval reconnaissance.


INS Sindhurakshak lost in fire, sailors feared dead - Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Mumbai/INS-Sindhurakshak-lost-in-fire-sailors-feared-dead/Article1-1107807.aspx)

jlvfr
14 Aug 13,, 11:32
BBC has an amateur's video. It's a pretty big blast!

bigross86
14 Aug 13,, 11:38
Maybe mods can merge?

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/central-south-asia/64334-indian-navy-sub-sinks-berth-after-explosion-18-aboard.html

dave lukins
14 Aug 13,, 13:20
Just watched it on the BBC and it certainly was an almighty explosion. RIP to the deceased and condolences to their families. Hoping for a speedy recovery to the injured and let's hope the Board of Inquiry find the fault ASAP.

Dreadnought
14 Aug 13,, 14:53
It was sent to Russia for an overhaul after an explosion in it's battery compartment in 2010. The Gorky's boiler exploded during trials, and now this... Russians really seem to be enforcing quite a reputation.

By ASHOK SHARMA

NEW DELHI (AP) - The Indian navy submarine crippled by an explosion and fire that killed at least some of the 18 sailors aboard Wednesday had been damaged in another deadly blast in 2010, and had been brought back into service only about six months ago.

The latest explosion sent a huge fireball into the air and sent nearby sailors jumping into the sea in panic. It is shaping up to be another embarrassment for India's military, which has been hit with a corruption scandal as it races to modernize its forces.

Defense Minister A.K. Antony said some sailors were killed but gave no other details.

"It's a loss to all of us. It's a tragedy," Antony told reporters in New Delhi before leaving for Mumbai to assess the situation.

Local TV news station Headlines Today showed video of the explosion on the diesel-powered submarine, apparently filmed by a bystander. An enormous ball of red and yellow fire rose hundreds of feet into the air.

One man standing outside the dockyard who declined to give his name said he heard a sound like a rocket or jet engine, then a blast. Another witness said the sky turned red after the explosion. Nearly a dozen fire engines rushed to the dockyard to douse the fire.

The fire was extinguished in about two hours, but a navy official said it was unclear how many sailors were killed or injured. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to reporters.

The official said that when the blast occurred, some sailors of other nearby units jumped into the sea in panic. He said some were injured and hospitalized.

Afterward, the sub was nearly submerged at its berth in the naval dockyard.

Another navy official said there has been no contact with the trapped sailors, and that navy divers have reached the submarine to find out whether there are survivors. That official also spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to reporters.

Navy spokesman Narendra Vispute said the cause of the explosion was being investigated.

The 16-year-old Russian-made submarine, INS Sindhurakshak, also suffered an explosion in 2010 that killed one sailor and injured two others. The navy said that accident was caused by a faulty battery valve that leaked hydrogen, causing an explosion in the vessel's battery compartment.

The sub recently returned from Russia after a two-and-a-half-year refit, overhaul and upgrade, said Rahul Bedi, an analyst for the independent Jane's Information Group.

Wednesday's accident came at a time when India was facing a shortage of submarines because of obsolescence, Bedi said.

The government has authorized the navy to have up to 24 conventional submarines, but it has just 14, including eight Russian Kilo-class and four German Type HDW209 boats. Bedi said five of those will be retired by 2014-15.

Last year, India acquired a Russian Nerpa nuclear submarine for its navy on a 10-year lease from Russia at a cost of nearly $1 billion. India also has designed and built its own nuclear submarine; the navy activated the atomic reactor on that vessel Saturday and could deploy it in the next two years.

India has steadily built up its naval capabilities in recent years, spurred by its rivalry with neighboring China. But the country's military has encountered scandal as it attempts to bulk up.

In February, India put on hold a $750 million deal to buy helicopters from Italian aerospace and defense giant Finmeccanica and its British subsidiary, AgustaWestland, following charges of kickbacks and bribes. Three of the 12 helicopters were delivered in December and the rest have been put on hold.

Giuseppe Orsihe, the former head of Italian Finmeccanica, is facing trial in Italy for his alleged role in the payment of bribes to secure the helicopter contract.

iWon News - Fatal explosion 2nd for Indian sub in 3 years (http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20130814/DA85KJE00.html)

zraver
14 Aug 13,, 17:50
(Reuters) - India's navy chief held out little hope for survivors on a submarine after some of its weapons detonated accidentally and fire swept through it. The likely deaths and damage are the worst blow to the navy since a 1971 war with Pakistan.

Eighteen sailors were on board the 16-year-old Russian-built INS Sindhurakshak, which was docked at the main naval base in Mumbai when two blasts rocked the vessel in the middle of Tuesday night.

The accident spoiled a week of modernization triumphs for the navy, including the launch of a locally built aircraft carrier aimed at giving India the edge at sea as it competes with China in the Indian Ocean.

Navy chief Admiral D.K. Joshi said divers had managed to pry open the main hatch of the diesel-powered submarine, more than 12 hours after the incident, and were trying to find their way through the vessel.

"Whilst we hope for the best, we are prepared for the worst ... There is a possibility, however remote it could be, of an air pocket. There is a possibility, however remote it might be, of someone having grabbed a breathing set," he told a news conference.

The INS Sindhurakshak, which returned from an upgrade in Russia this year, had suffered an accident in 2010 in which one sailor was killed while it was docked in the southern port of Visakhapatnam.

Typically, such a submarine is fitted with torpedoes and missiles. Torpedoes are launched underwater to attack other submarines while missiles are used for long ranges above water.

"Just short of midnight, there were two rapid and near- simultaneous major explosions on board the submarine, which resulted in a major and rapid spread of fire on board," Joshi said. "It is some of the ordinance on board that seem to have exploded."

Hope fades for 18 on Indian submarine after blasts, fire | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/us-india-submarine-fire-idUSBRE97D02920130814)

zraver
14 Aug 13,, 17:54
Project 877 EKM Kilo class submarine, normal crew 53, 2325 tons surfaced.

bigross86
14 Aug 13,, 20:17
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/naval-warfare/64334-indian-navy-sub-sinks-berth-after-explosion-18-aboard.html

YellowFever
14 Aug 13,, 20:37
God bless.

Firestorm
14 Aug 13,, 21:23
This is truly tragic. RIP to the sailors and may their families get the strength to bear their loss.

There was a report on one of the news channels that a Klub-S missile being loaded onto the submarine may have exploded, causing secondary explosions which eventually sank it.

This is all that is visible of the sub over the water now..

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8-03QGqAdg0/Ugub-HckfMI/AAAAAAAAUzI/5V800GqOVkE/s1600/DPR_8298-734562.JPG

Tronic
14 Aug 13,, 22:43
Second submarine, INS Sindhuratna also damaged in explosion

The explosion and fire aboard the INS Sindhurakshak has also damaged another submarine that was berthed next to the ill fated vessel at the Mumbai naval dockyard. The second submarine has now been identified as the INS Sindhuratna, reported Headlines Today.

The cause of the fire has not been officially revealed, but media channels quoting unnamed naval sources, have said that it is likely that the weapons aboard the fully loaded submarine detonated, causing the explosion.

Debris of missiles and boosters aboard INS Sindhurakshak have been found in the Mumbai naval dockyard, reported Times Now, virtually confirming that the warheads exploded. If this is indeed the case, it is unlikely that the vessel, which recently underwent a $18 million revamp in Russia, will ever see action again.

The fate of 18 personnel who were trapped on board the submarine is not known, although rescue and salvage operations are underway. Three officers were among the trapped, the navy said.

Live updates: Fire aboard INS Sindhurakshak - Firstpost (http://www.firstpost.com/india/sindhurakshak-live-all-18-sailors-aboard-feared-dead-says-navy-1032219.html)

gf0012-aust
14 Aug 13,, 23:17
Rip

zraver
15 Aug 13,, 00:06
The video shows what looks more like a cook off/ brew up than an explosion.... RIP to the crew.

S2
15 Aug 13,, 03:47
Present Arms!

May those sailors rest in peace and their friends and families find comfort amidst their loss.

Albany Rifles
15 Aug 13,, 04:09
Rip

Defcon5
15 Aug 13,, 04:54
This is just heart wrenching


Crew trapped in exploding sea coffin

SAMYABRATA RAY GOSWAMI
HOW THE SINDHURAKSHAK WENT DOWN

A POWDER KEG IN WATER
• INS Sindhurakshak being readied for patrol in the Arabian Sea. A fire or explosion takes place in the forward compartment that houses armaments — missiles, torpedoes, mines. Triggers two other explosions around 0010hrs

• Blasts in the torpedo compartment destroy the hull; sub nosedives. Hole in vessel wall causes inundation

• Two torpedoes set off by explosion are released, but remain half-stuck in the sub’s armament tube

• Explosion and fire spread to adjoining INS Sindhuratna. Fire put out and sub towed
to safety. Some Sindhuratna sailors suffer minor burns. Some others from other vessels watching the arming of Sindhurakshak jump into the sea or are thrown overboard. They are rescued

• Three officers and 15 sailors aboard Sindhurakshak trapped inside. Three others, on the outer casing, survive

• Within 10 minutes of blast, Navy builds a wall of water-jets between Sindhurakshak and the other vessels

• 25 fire engines of Navy and Mumbai fire brigade move in to control the fire. Within two and a half hours, the fire, which spreads to Mumbai dockyard, controlled

• Sindhurakshak hits seabed with its conning tower sticking out above water

• Naval divers begin salvage but the hull and water around it is too hot. Submarine loaded with explosives and all three hatches twisted and jammed

• A little after 3pm, divers approach top hatch amid concerns of more explosions. After an hour, hatch is opened and divers move in amid low visibility due to inundation by muddy waters

• Nearly 16 hours have passed since blasts as difficult job of recovering bits and pieces of charred and vaporised bodies begins

Mumbai, Aug. 14: The Indian Navy was shaken by its most crippling peacetime blow when a submarine was ripped apart by blasts and sank at the dockyard here past midnight with all of its 18 crew members feared dead.

Operational-level officers at the Western Naval Command told The Telegraph that the explosion in the INS Sindhurakshak occurred when a detonator of a newly synergised Klub-S missile was being fitted.

The deaths have not yet been officially confirmed, because, as the navy chief, Admiral D.K. Joshi, said: “Miracles happen.”

The Russian-made and refurbished INS Sindhurakshak, a Kilo-class submarine, turned into an explosive, watery coffin after a fire in a compartment near its nose triggered blasts from warheads and deadly material meant for an enemy.

The three deafening blasts that ripped apart the INS Sindhurakshak could be heard over a 2km radius, including parts of south Mumbai. An enormous fireball rose from the submarine, leaping dozens of metres into the air.

“Submarine mishaps are usually catastrophic,” said Joshi.

Even as the submarine sank, firefighters took nearly three hours to douse the flames, some of which had touched the piers of the congested naval dockyard. The submarine plunged to the bottom of the bed, seven metres deep. Its conning tower was still at the surface. Hours later, rescuers stood on it and mapped their way into its interiors.

The INS Sindhurakshak, brought back into service only four months ago after a Rs 500-crore makeover, had flooded after the blasts blew a hole in the vessel.

With no submersible escape pod, as in other, more modern, submarines, the INS Sindhurakshak’s 18 sailors, including three officers, had no way to reach the surface, even if spared by the explosions. The only straws to clutch would have been emergency breathing devices and/or an air pocket, a part of the boat that could not be filled by water.


We hope for the best and are prepared for the worst - Admiral DK Joshi
Two of the three officers and six of the 15 sailors were married.

“The wives of the missing officers are with the Naval Command, waiting for news about their missing husbands. Our Family Support Cell and Naval Wives’ Welfare Association are providing the family members with professional medical counselling,” Joshi told reporters, all but confirming the loss of his men.

“We hope for the best and are prepared for the worst,” he said.

Naval divers engaged in rescue since dawn prised open a hatch of the submarine around 4pm on Wednesday after a 12-hour ordeal, but found no survivors, said a source at the Western Naval Command. The impact of the explosions had so distorted the hull — the main body — that the hatches got jammed.

“She is inundated with muddy water and with evening setting in, it is difficult to bring out the bodies of our officers and sailors. But it is difficult to say at this stage how many we shall be able to retrieve as the blasts would have generated a temperature of the range of 5000°C-6000°C which would have vaporised those in its immediate vicinity,” said the navy source.

The navy has ordered a mandatory investigation by a board of inquiry. Joshi said that from the footage available, it appeared the explosions occurred in the armament compartment near the nose of the submarine as sailors were readying and arming the vessel.

“Debris of what seemed to be a missile and a booster were found at the dockyard,” he said.

The INS Sindhurakshak was due to leave for an operational deployment about 8 nautical miles from the Mumbai coast this morning.

While the homeport of all submarines is Vizag, the naval dockyard here is the hub of west coast operations — the “sword arm” of the navy with multiple layers of security.

Even within a dockyard, accessing a submarine with its own security rings is a challenging task for any kind of provocateur.

Joshi said though sabotage could not be ruled out, indicators so far did not point to that possibility.

All other submarines and ships were immediately pulled out of the area.

Despite being loaded with explosives and half-released torpedoes, the vessel is not a safety hazard, according to retired naval chief Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat.

BLAST & AFTER

What caused the fire or explosions?

Enough combustible material in the forward compartment, where the incident occurred, which also houses armaments and weapons. Oxygen, hydrogen, rocket fuel, warheads, sulphuric acid, mines — any, or several, could have caused it.

An inquiry will give report in four weeks

Could there have been a breach of safety drill?

Since 26/11, operational deployments of all warships have increased. This puts pressure on the upkeep of ageing fleet.

The navy has a long history of operating submarines. Safety drills involve both human effort and technical engineering. Theoretically, human or technical failure is possible

Could it have been sabotage?

Navy says indications available so far do not support such a theory

How will the unexploded ordnance be neutralised?

The submarine is already seven metres under water for more than 18 hours now. The muddy water that has poured into the submarine would have neutralised much of the ordnance. Unexploded ordnance can be neutralised in field firing ranges

Is it possible that some of the ordnance could still go off?

Theoretically, it is possible that if ordnance is in a compartment where water has not entered — like in an air pocket — it could explode.
Crew trapped in exploding sea coffin (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130815/jsp/frontpage/story_17234585.jsp#.UgxCINIwcQq)

Oracle
15 Aug 13,, 07:48
Are India's aging submarines going the MiG way? (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Are-Indias-aging-submarines-going-the-MiG-way/articleshow/21836998.cms)


NEW DELHI: Is India's aging fleet of conventional submarines threatening to go the MiG-21 way? The Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), already 30 years in the making, was slated to replace the obsolete MiG-21 in the 1990s but is still at least two years away from becoming fully-operational.

Similarly, the Navy too was to induct 12 new diesel-electric submarines by last year, with another dozen to follow in the 2012-2030 timeframe. This was the 30-year submarine building plan approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) way back in July, 1999. But the Navy has not inducted even one of the 24 planned submarines till now, and is forced to soldier on with just 14 aging conventional vessels.

"The Navy is steadily modernizing in the surface warship and aircraft arenas. But our aging and depleting underwater combat arm is a big worry. But it also must be kept in mind that INS Sindhurakshak's accident is the first such incident we have had in over four decades of operating submarines," said a senior officer.

Sources said INS Sindhurakshak, after Wednesday's accident, is "a clear write-off". Of the 13 submarines left now, as many as 11 are over 20 years old. The setback comes when China and Pakistan are systematically bolstering their underwater combat capabilities, with the former being armed with over 55 submarines.

India's four German HDW or Shishumar-class submarines were inducted between 1986 and 1994, while eight of the 10 Russian Kilo or Sindhugosh-class vessels were inducted between 1986 and 1991. The last two Russian submarines — INS Sindhurakshak and INS Sindhushastra — were inducted in 1997 and 2000, respectively.

Even CAG reports have alarmingly held that the operational availability of the Indian submarines is as low as 48% due to the aging fleet and prolonged refit and life-extension programmes. With the design life of a submarine being 25-30 years, projections show just six-seven of the existing submarines will be fully-operational by 2020.

Successive governments' sheer inability to take decisions in time and gross project mismanagement - with inevitable huge cost escalations — has led to this dismal situation. The first of the six new Scorpene submarines being built at Mazagon Docks will be ready only by 2016-17 at the earliest, over four years behind schedule. The other five — under this Rs 23,000 crore programme called "Project-75" — are scheduled to progressively follow by 2020-21.

The next six of the remaining 18 submarines are yet to be even ordered. Despite being granted "acceptance of necessity" in November 2007, "Project-75India" to construct six advanced stealth submarines, armed with both land-attack missile capabilities and air-independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance, is still stuck in political apathy and bureaucratic red-tape.

Defence minister A K Antony says P-75I, which will cost upwards of Rs 50,000 crore now, is currently awaiting CCS approval. But the reality check is that even if the global tender for it is issued today, it will take at least three years to select the foreign collaborator. Then, after the contracts are inked, it will take another seven years for the first submarine to roll out.

Another critical concern is that the Navy has rudimentary submarine rescue facilities. The force's endeavour to procure two deep-submergence rescue vessels (DSRVs) or "mini submarines", which "mate" with disabled submarines underwater to rescue trapped sailors from depths up to 610 metres, has been stuck for over 15 years.

The Navy does have diving support ships like INS Nireekshak to help in such situations but they are useful at relatively shallow depths. In 1997, as an "interim measure" till the Navy could get its own DSRVs, India had also inked agreement with the US for its "global submarine rescue fly-away kit" service. Under it, the US Navy will transport rescue equipment "within 72 hours" if an Indian submarine got disabled deep underwater. The Indian and American navies had conducted an exercise just last year to practice this drill.

Defcon5
15 Aug 13,, 11:15
Are India's aging submarines going the MiG way? (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Are-Indias-aging-submarines-going-the-MiG-way/articleshow/21836998.cms)

Indian media sensationalism at its best, not even a iota of sympathy. Whatever happened to grace of journalism. This coming from a guy who does not support Russian products.

chanjyj
15 Aug 13,, 12:20
Rip

Officer of Engineers
15 Aug 13,, 15:51
Present Arms.

Double Edge
21 Aug 13,, 00:22
I wont come to a conclusion so soon without a prior inquiry report.
Middle of next month. Don't know when it will be made public.

667medic
21 Aug 13,, 01:52
Indian media sensationalism at its best, not even a iota of sympathy. Whatever happened to grace of journalism. This coming from a guy who does not support Russian products.

No shit Sherlock, the journalist is calling a spade a spade AKA "Indian incompetence". At least the Migs used to fall during flight but seems like the subs will start sinking even without leaving port, never heard that happen in any navy recently. And people talk about facing China, Cdude is right to mock Indians...

667medic
21 Aug 13,, 02:01
And the "rescue effort" is pathetic, 10 guys with wires. Are they going to haul the sub by hand, at least put a show for PR sake dammit. If this is not incompetence then what is ?...

gf0012-aust
21 Aug 13,, 03:19
quite a few questions are going to get asked on this...

it's not as if they need DSRV for recovery....
they're at a depth where the onboard evacuation capability will not leave any of the sailors with the bends etc....
if a recovery vessel was required to be air lifted in at short notice it could have been done (and that means contacting either the USN, or JFD to borrow them off the RAN/Sings or RN/French/Norwegians) The 3 systems managed as detailed prior can be lifted in by C17, C5, Ant 124 or 747 - all common platforms and nearly all available to the IAF if logistics was an issue

cdude
21 Aug 13,, 04:20
No shit Sherlock, the journalist is calling a spade a spade AKA "Indian incompetence". At least the Migs used to fall during flight but seems like the subs will start sinking even without leaving port, never heard that happen in any navy recently. And people talk about facing China, Cdude is right to mock Indians...

Oh well, that's probably how I will be remembered.

Just for the record, my mockery is toward the Indian ruling class, which always misallocate your precious national fundings. Largest weapon importer in the world. I mean the ruling class must see something I don't see from the Chinese side. Remember that article made the rounds several years ago?
Nervous China May Attack India by 2012: Expert - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124748777728332473.html)

How many billions of dollars were spent because of this kind of paranoia?

zraver
21 Aug 13,, 04:29
quite a few questions are going to get asked on this...

it's not as if they need DSRV for recovery....
they're at a depth where the onboard evacuation capability will not leave any of the sailors with the bends etc....
if a recovery vessel was required to be air lifted in at short notice it could have been done (and that means contacting either the USN, or JFD to borrow them off the RAN/Sings or RN/French/Norwegians) The 3 systems managed as detailed prior can be lifted in by C17, C5, Ant 124 or 747 - all common platforms and nearly all available to the IAF if logistics was an issue

If the motor of a Klub-S cooked off it was basically a giant blow torch inside the sub followed by warhead detonations and the sinking. That is something around 2000c exhaust gasses travelling in excess of 3000m/s. Internal bulkheads might as well not exist even if they were closed which they probably were not.

chanjyj
21 Aug 13,, 04:38
And the "rescue effort" is pathetic, 10 guys with wires. Are they going to haul the sub by hand, at least put a show for PR sake dammit. If this is not incompetence then what is ?...


quite a few questions are going to get asked on this...

it's not as if they need DSRV for recovery....
they're at a depth where the onboard evacuation capability will not leave any of the sailors with the bends etc....
if a recovery vessel was required to be air lifted in at short notice it could have been done (and that means contacting either the USN, or JFD to borrow them off the RAN/Sings or RN/French/Norwegians) The 3 systems managed as detailed prior can be lifted in by C17, C5, Ant 124 or 747 - all common platforms and nearly all available to the IAF if logistics was an issue

If a DSRV was needed (which I doubt - the "recovery" will be more of a get-it-out-of-the-water affair) we have a SSRV with DSRV equipped within short sailing notice of India.

gf0012-aust
21 Aug 13,, 04:43
If the motor of a Klub-S cooked off it was basically a giant blow torch inside the sub followed by warhead detonations and the sinking. That is something around 2000c exhaust gasses travelling in excess of 3000m/s. Internal bulkheads might as well not exist even if they were closed which they probably were not.

there are some extensive lessons learnt from the 60's and 70's re weapons systems cooking off or spilling - if the tech in place has not had safeguards built in, then there is more reason to get cranky.

it would be easier to speculate if images were available, but thats likely to not be forthcoming anyway.

unsafeguarded missile propellant flooding front to rear would basically turn it into one huge thermobaric event - and at that stage seawater entering and triggering nasties from the batteries would have blown it to bits - I doubt that they would have anything buoyant left - let alone poking skywards

am curious as to whether this boats refurb included reharnessing. russian gear is notorious for using kapton sheathing - and kapton ages over time and becomes brittle. the opportunity for cross shorting goes up accordingly. (this is despite the fact that kapton is banned in the majority of countries due to that very reason).. All the non rebuilt Mig21's used kapton - and there was a strong view that it might have been a contributor to the dirt dart reputation.

gf0012-aust
21 Aug 13,, 04:45
If a DSRV was needed (which I doubt - the "recovery" will be more of a get-it-out-of-the-water affair) we have a SSRV with DSRV equipped within short sailing notice of India.

Yep, RAN and Sing train together for DRSV and share the cost of a JFD asset.

chanjyj
21 Aug 13,, 04:53
Yep, RAN and Sing train together for DRSV and share the cost of a JFD asset.

gf0012-aust, off-topic slightly, were you involved in the AIP modifications to the SG subs? I recall you mentioning it sometime back and it stuck in my head. I can be a bit of an information sponge but after sometime the pieces don't really fit anymore.

gf0012-aust
21 Aug 13,, 05:00
gf0012-aust, off-topic slightly, were you involved in the AIP modifications to the SG subs? I recall you mentioning it sometime back and it stuck in my head. I can be a bit of an information sponge but after sometime the pieces don't really fit anymore.

good memory :)

I had some involvement with the company that did the acoustic mapping and post "noise" management of your subs :) we also sold some other UDT defensive measures to the SN

chanjyj
21 Aug 13,, 05:04
good memory :)

I had some involvement with the company that did the acoustic mapping and post "noise" management of your subs :) we also sold some other UDT defensive measures to the SN

I'll PM you about it sometime (when I get the time, going back to school is a bloody tough job) to avoid derailing this thread. There are some questions I'd like to ask and not have fanboys or fangirls coming up with fluff.

gf0012-aust
21 Aug 13,, 05:06
I'll PM you about it sometime (when I get the time, going back to school is a bloody tough job) to avoid derailing this thread. There are some questions I'd like to ask and not have fanboys or fangirls coming up with fluff.

no probs

I'm not exactly keen on discussing sub/UDT issues on an open forum anyway, esp with respect to us or our principle partners

zraver
21 Aug 13,, 05:49
GF, have you seen the video of the event?

BREAKING: Indian Navy Submarine Catches Fire, 18 Sailors Trapped as Ship Sinks in Mumbai Port - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHiVaox0Dc)

It reminded me of tanks brewing up

Syria - SAA T-72 cooking off in Idlib 16/9 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=holhLK9UipY)

Look at the bottom of the tank and you see just how fast the propellant burnt through the armor grade steel.

gf0012-aust
21 Aug 13,, 06:03
GF, have you seen the video of the event?

BREAKING: Indian Navy Submarine Catches Fire, 18 Sailors Trapped as Ship Sinks in Mumbai Port - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHiVaox0Dc)

It reminded me of tanks brewing up


Syria - SAA T-72 cooking off in Idlib 16/9 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=holhLK9UipY)

Look at the bottom of the tank and you see just how fast the propellant burnt through the armor grade steel.

well, its definitely what they call an "assisted event".

lemontree
21 Aug 13,, 06:25
No shit Sherlock, the journalist is calling a spade a spade AKA "Indian incompetence". At least the Migs used to fall during flight but seems like the subs will start sinking even without leaving port, never heard that happen in any navy recently. And people talk about facing China, Cdude is right to mock Indians...

An accident is an accident, one can scream "Indian incompetence" and blame politicians, but if there is anything one must know is that the IN is a very, very professional arm. We make do with what we have and move ahead.

For all the journalist calling a spade a spade...maybe he is not aware of the cost of a submarine vs that of a MIG.
The cost of one MIG-21 (license producted in HAL) - $ 272,700 (approx at the time of purchase).
The cost of a Kilo class sub - $ 200 million plus.

You cannot dump a $ 200 million piece of equipment, with that amount of money you can change the face of an Indian states economy.

lemontree
21 Aug 13,, 06:44
Oh well, that's probably how I will be remembered.

Just for the record, my mockery is toward the Indian ruling class,
Your mockery seemed deliberate as it referred to the 18 sailors who died in the recent sub accident.


Largest weapon importer in the world. I mean the ruling class must see something I don't see from the Chinese side.
Maybe you are not as well informed. My nation is free to invest its resources in arming itself to protect itself for any foreign or domestic threat, and China is a military threat to India.


Remember that article made the rounds several years ago?
Nervous China May Attack India by 2012: Expert - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124748777728332473.html)

How many billions of dollars were spent because of this kind of paranoia?
Your communists wanted to go to war in 1986 with India (Somdorong Chu), only the PLA disuaded them as they could not promise a victory. You may google it up or just ask OOE further information.

gf0012-aust
21 Aug 13,, 09:03
Fair warning alert

If there is any hint of anyone disrespecting those who have died in this tragedy, then that poster will be sin binned for their efforts.

Lets all remember that there is a tragedy here, and any discussions need to be tempered accordingly.

cdude
21 Aug 13,, 16:06
Maybe you are not as well informed. My nation is free to invest its resources in arming itself to protect itself for any foreign or domestic threat, and China is a military threat to India.


Arming yourself to what extend? That's the question. I've argued that India's ruling class tend to overstate the threat and overspend on imported weapons.

With that kind of money, I would've built some more roads.



Your communists wanted to go to war in 1986 with India (Somdorong Chu), only the PLA disuaded them as they could not promise a victory. You may google it up or just ask OOE further information.

I think my commies went to war with you guys in 1962, so what's your point?

jlvfr
21 Aug 13,, 16:19
Arming yourself to what extend? That's the question. I've argued that India's ruling class tend to overstate the threat and overspend on imported weapons.


While at the same time trying to design and build everything domestically, with the results seen in the last few years...

Meanwhile, the poor troops at the sharp end get the result... I get nightmares thinking of those poor sailors in the sub...

IND76
21 Aug 13,, 16:22
I think my commies went to war with you guys in 1962, so what's your point?

Point is you are an IDIOT:bang:

cdude
21 Aug 13,, 16:25
While at the same time trying to design and build everything domestically, with the results seen in the last few years...


At what expense? People often laugh at North Korea's ruling class for getting their priorities wrong. And deservedly so.

jlvfr
21 Aug 13,, 16:27
At what expense? People often laugh at North Korea's ruling class for getting their priorities wrong. And deservedly so.

Indeed. The domestic programs are all massively overbudget and flawed...

ambidex
21 Aug 13,, 16:56
Arming yourself to what extend? That's the question. I've argued that India's ruling class tend to overstate the threat and overspend on imported weapons.

Just 5 to 10 years back China was top on the list for imported weapons. What was China's ruling class fearing and what was their extent to arm themselves.

Since most of your indigenous weapon programs have been not yielding like J-20 prototypes standing sad without indigenous engine and your air force signing deals with Russians for SU-35. Purchasing S-400 SAM from Russia against your claims of having state of the art SAMs and missile programme. You people are still going to be top 5 importers of arms.


With that kind of money, I would've built some more roads.

Roads to where and why. Why a poster who is not an Indian has to worry about Indian roads in a topic unrelated to Indian infrastructure; which is quite massive and ongoing program? Trolling ?

ambidex
21 Aug 13,, 17:06
I get nightmares thinking of those poor sailors in the sub...

They died in the line of duty. No way on earth they are poor. They were operating one of the best (contemporary) Subs provided to them.

There are many subs who met accidents worst than this. One on the Chinese sub was patrolling Yellow Sea with all its crew dead, just 10 year back. Chinese sub crew of 70 are killed by 'malfunction' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1429101/Chinese-sub-crew-of-70-are-killed-by-malfunction.html)

jlvfr
21 Aug 13,, 17:17
They died in the line of duty. No way on earth they are poor. They were operating one of the best (contemporary) Subs provided to them.


They were sufocated/burned to death/blown up/crushed while tied to a pier, doing maintenance. By any standards, in any age, regardless of duty, I still call them "poor sailors"

ambidex
21 Aug 13,, 17:32
They were sufocated/burned to death/blown up/crushed while tied to a pier, doing maintenance. By any standards, in any age, regardless of duty, I still call them "poor sailors"

No need for your details. People here are educated enough to understand occupational hazards.

BTW you started with a point that because of misplaced priorities Indian sailors had to suffer. Neither the sub was indigenous nor it was outdated, a handsome amount of money was spent to upgrade it. It was one of the best subs with most experience crew. Not to mention the cause of accident is not still established and the kind of open society we are, unlike few, the details of this accident will be made public for sure.

So please have your facts correct before doing further lecture.

cdude
21 Aug 13,, 17:42
Just 5 to 10 years back China was top on the list for imported weapons. What was China's ruling class fearing and what was their extent to arm themselves.
Since most of your indigenous weapon programs have been not yielding like J-20 prototypes standing sad without indigenous engine and your air force signing deals with Russians for SU-35. Purchasing S-400 SAM from Russia against your claims of having state of the art SAMs and missile programme. You people are still going to be top 5 importers of arms.

In 98, NATO bombed Chinese embassy in Serbia, 3 Chinese citizens killed. In 2001, US spy plane clashed with a J-8 fighter near Hainan, one Chinese pilot was killed. We are talking about real military actions between China and the US. Not some patrol troops trolling back and forth then get drunk together.

Now to the numbers, remember China's foreign-exchange reserves is roughly 10 times that of India. List of countries by foreign-exchange reserves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-exchange_reserves)

Check out this page: Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry)

Arms import from 2000 to 2010:
India 911 1242 1872 2802 2227 1036 1257 2179 1810 2116 3337
China 2015 3366 2819 2207 3080 3511 3831 1474 1481 595 559

Arms export from 2001 to 2011
China 499 509 665 292 303 597 430 586 1000 1423 1354 1783

At any given year, the net arms import for China is at MOST 2X india with 10X foreign-exchange reserves. I conclude that China manages their budgets slightly less insane.












Roads to where and why. Why a poster who is not an Indian has to worry about Indian roads in a topic unrelated to Indian infrastructure; which is quite massive and ongoing program? Trolling ?

Always attack the messenger first, I see.

jlvfr
21 Aug 13,, 17:47
No need for your details. People here are educated enough to understand occupational hazards.

BTW you started with a point that because of misplaced priorities Indian sailors had to suffer. Neither the sub was indigenous nor it was outdated, a handsome amount of money was spent to upgrade it. It was one of the best subs with most experience crew. Not to mention the cause of accident is not still established and the kind of open society we are, unlike few, the details of this accident will be made public for sure.


I was not referering to "misplaced priorities". I was refering to trying to do everything at the same time (getting massive buys of foreign equipment AND domestic at the same time) causing well-known problems (technical and bugetary). And I do know the IN had spen millions upgrading that sub; whoever while the crew may have been that good (I have no idea), the fact is that indian shipwards are overworked and clogged with orders. A situation that doesn't help safety.

ambidex
21 Aug 13,, 18:10
In 98, NATO bombed Chinese embassy in Serbia, 3 Chinese citizens killed.


So you will buy imported arms because of that to top the list at that time.



In 2001, US spy plane clashed with a J-8 fighter near Hainan, one Chinese pilot was killed. We are talking about real military actions between China and the US.

I heard that Chinese pilot bumped into that plane, stupid. USA spying means military confrontation? Your paranoia is epic and laughable. Still you nation poses Zero threat to USA. All your military capabilities are there to bully small neighbours.


Not some patrol troops trolling back and forth then get drunk together.

So what China has been doing against USA which is more confronting than what PLA is doing at LAC. How about nuclear weapon proliferation to Pakistan by China against India. Fighting India till last Pakistani ?


Now to the numbers, remember China's foreign-exchange reserves is roughly 10 times that of India. List of countries by foreign-exchange reserves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-exchange_reserves)

Check out this page: Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry)

At any given year, the net arms import for China is at MOST 2X india with 10X foreign-exchange reserves. I conclude that China manages their budgets slightly less insane.

I stand correct that China was top arms importer. How China manages/ed it better with its cooked book economy is anyone guess.

Indian policy makers very well know about the size of their pocket and what their short term and long term requirements are. The size of Indian economy can sustain the expenditure we intend to do. Your generic propaganda statistics can not give you authority to comment on Indian procurement process and budget allocation details. Neither you are qualified nor you will be able to debate on it. All three wings of our forces return surplus budget every year. If you want to discuss it in detail then trust me you will end up knowing that we still do not equip our forces well to meet the challenges posed by Impulsive Islamic republic and Communist hegemon.


Always attack the messenger first, I see.

You didn't answer me. What is your interest about Indian roads vis a vis topic in hand.

ambidex
21 Aug 13,, 18:21
I was not referering to "misplaced priorities". I was refering to trying to do everything at the same time (getting massive buys of foreign equipment AND domestic at the same time) causing well-known problems (technical and bugetary). And I do know the IN had spen millions upgrading that sub; whoever while the crew may have been that good (I have no idea), the fact is that indian shipwards are overworked and clogged with orders. A situation that doesn't help safety.

Leave it to Indians, we have been operating ACC, nuclear subs three different types of fighter jets, three different types of tanks etc. etc. at one given time since 40-50 odd years.

I can fairly say it is beyond this thread to go into details how republic of India manages its armed forces and procurement of weapons. So please do not trade into the territory which can never be an answers of few lines. Like you said you have no Idea, I will assume you are posting here just for sake of posting.

Doktor
21 Aug 13,, 18:26
Ambidex,

Grab a snickers, mate ;)

Been a while to see cdude's posts to make sense. India is overspending and is in no condition to win arms race with PRC considering the economies of both countries.

However, I agree it is tasteless a thread dedicated to a tragedy to derail into a discussion over military spending of countries.

ambidex
21 Aug 13,, 18:36
Ambidex,

Grab a snickers, mate ;)

Been a while to see cdude's posts to make sense. India is overspending and is in no condition to win arms race with PRC considering the economies of both countries.

However, I agree it is tasteless a thread dedicated to a tragedy to derail into a discussion over military spending of countries.

I think two or three years ago our Naval chief categorically made it clear that India can not win arms race with China. The point is if naval Chief is saying it means people in India are aware of it, they understand the futility of it. I believe India has its own calculations done and we are going to be within our limits of spending. A quick glance at what we have purchased or going to purchase reflects a snail pace phenomenon which I doubt can be counter productive to our economy in any abrupt sense.

cdude
21 Aug 13,, 21:06
I heard that Chinese pilot bumped into that plane, stupid. USA spying means military confrontation? Your paranoia is epic and laughable . Still you nation poses Zero threat to USA. All your military capabilities are there to bully small neighbours .

So what China has been doing against USA which is more confronting than what PLA is doing at LAC. How about nuclear weapon proliferation to Pakistan by China against India. Fighting India till last Pakistani ?

I stand correct that China was top arms importer. How China manages/ed it better with its cooked book economy is anyone guess.

Indian policy makers very well know about the size of their pocket and what their short term and long term requirements are. The size of Indian economy can sustain the expenditure we intend to do. Your generic propaganda statistics can not give you authority to comment on Indian procurement process and budget allocation details. Neither you are qualified nor you will be able to debate on it. All three wings of our forces return surplus budget every year. If you want to discuss it in detail then trust me you will end up knowing that we still do not equip our forces well to meet the challenges posed by Impulsive Islamic republic and Communist hegemon .

Well, here you take your game up a notch. I highlighted your points. And I think you "win" the debate






You didn't answer me. What is your interest about Indian roads vis a vis topic in hand.

Hmmm, you remind me of a long lost member of the board .......... adux. Good times.

Firestorm
21 Aug 13,, 21:34
Ambidex, I hope you realize you are feeding the troll.

Doktor
21 Aug 13,, 23:02
Ambidex, I hope you realize you are feeding the troll.

On top of it, in a wrong thread.

gf0012-aust
21 Aug 13,, 23:37
/PATIENCE OFF

Note the thread subject title

Anything that strays beyond that needs to be resident in a new or different thread
Anything off topic and not related to the threads title will be deleted
No-one should be responding to off topic replies and the Mods will be at liberty to delete off topic postings

lemontree
22 Aug 13,, 06:56
Arming yourself to what extend? That's the question....
Armies are armed as per the threat perception of what the adversary can throw at them.
We have to cater to our defence requirements that are very strategic in nature, to ensure that Chinese aggressive measures can be neutralised and punished also.

I've argued that India's ruling class tend to overstate the threat and overspend on imported weapons.
Please support your argument with some examples, so that we can understand your perception and debate it.

With that kind of money, I would've built some more roads.
The roads are being built.

I think my commies went to war with you guys in 1962, so what's your point?
- 1954 Enchroached on Aksai Chin, without sorting out the borders with India.
- 1962 war (but we blame our politicians more than we blame the PLA for it).
- 1967 skirmish in Sikkim (the PLA was clobbered by us here).
- 1986 almost went to war.

As you see above, the more we perfected our armed forces the more the PLA backed off.
Till the 1980's Indians had stayed away from the disputed frontiers, but as the armed forces developed its capabilities and gained confidence to address the PLA threat, infrastructure began to be developed and the InA started to re-establish its presence in the fontiers. This is something that was resented by the PLA and it resulted in the Somdorong Chu incident. The PLA backed off.

This is the same reason that the intrusions are taking place in Ladhak.
We know war is not an option for India and China - but why take a chance :)

jlvfr
22 Aug 13,, 09:51
Fighting the fire (http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/19/as-divers-find-sixth-body-mumbai-firefighters-recall-a-burning-waterfront/?src=recg)

I guess they got at least some luck, saving the 2nd sub.

desertswo
22 Aug 13,, 17:40
Fighting the fire (http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/19/as-divers-find-sixth-body-mumbai-firefighters-recall-a-burning-waterfront/?src=recg)

I guess they got at least some luck, saving the 2nd sub.

THAT'S FROM A FIRE INSIDE THE SUBMARINE?!!!! Good Lord, I think there's a job for me somewhere in that mess.