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DarthSiddius
09 Aug 13,, 16:56
New Delhi: Indian and Chinese troops had a face-off in Sikkim earlier this week which, however, ended in a friendly exchange of beer and rasgullas.

The face-off happened near the Tangkar La pass at the height of over 16,000 feet in eastern Sikkim after a Chinese patrol entered into territory claimed by India, sources told PTI.

The Chinese patrol, which was travelling in two light vehicles, was monitored by the Indian team comprising a young Lieutenant and nine jawans near the Tangkar La pass, they said.

The Indian patrol intercepted the Chinese patrol and after that, they showed banners to each other asking to leave the area and go back to their respective territories.

At the time of parting, the Chinese troops presented cans of Budweiser beer to the Indian patrol while our troops gifted them a pack of rasgullas, they said.

In the recent past, there have been a spate of incursions from the Chinese side into the Indian territory all along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) between the two sides stretching from Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir in north to Arunachal Pradesh in the northeast.

On the transgressions by Chinese troops, Defence Minister AK Antony had recently said that there was "no commonly delineated Line of Actual Control (LAC) between India and China". "There are areas along the border where India and China have different perceptions of the LAC and both sides undertake patrols up to their respective positions there," he had said.

"On account of differences in perception of LAC, certain transgression incidents do take place on ground. Government regularly takes up any transgression with the Chinese side through established mechanisms," he had added.

Link (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/indian-chinese-troops-exchange-beer-rasgullas-after-face-off-403668?pfrom=home-topstories)

'Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai'? :tankie:

DarthSiddius
09 Aug 13,, 16:58
If they had better beer we could resolve the border issues overnight!

Firestorm
09 Aug 13,, 17:24
If they had better beer we could resolve the border issues overnight!
Scotch would be better at 16000 ft. But these exchanges could get too expensive. :tongue:

payeng
09 Aug 13,, 18:05
Beer with Rasgullas what an awkward combination.

Officer of Engineers
09 Aug 13,, 22:05
This has to be one of the wierdest escalations I have ever seen. Usually, we see machine gun and mortar and maybe even artillery fire. What next? A cook out between Chinese and Indian BBQ?

YellowFever
09 Aug 13,, 22:35
"At the time of parting, the Chinese troops presented cans of Budweiser beer to the Indian patrol while our troops gifted them a pack of rasgullas, they said."

Man, these bastards are playing rough.

This is an outright escalation of hostilities....

Tronic
10 Aug 13,, 02:38
This ain't news... This is what most Indo-Chinese border meetings look like.

Here's one from Shiv Aroor's blog:


http://imageshack.us/a/img854/4095/gc53.jpg
In these days of high-pitched exchanges about incursions by China in Eastern Ladakh, thought I'd post this photograph, though for no particular reason. That's me with PLA officers about a kilometer from the Bum La border inside Tibet at a Indo-China Army border meeting in October 2006. And yes, third from left is Kargil hero Colonel Lalit Rai who was, at that time, with the Indian Army's Korea (190 Moutain) Brigade at Tawang.
Livefist: A Dragon's Dinner (http://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/09/dragons-dinner.html)

Officer of Engineers
10 Aug 13,, 02:56
No wonder neither army wants this border issue settled.

Bigfella
10 Aug 13,, 05:25
War really is hell! :biggrin:

lemontree
20 Aug 13,, 05:04
This ain't news... This is what most Indo-Chinese border meetings look like.

Here's one from Shiv Aroor's blog:

"... third from left is Kargil hero Colonel Lalit Rai "...Colonel Lalit Rai, was the Academy Adjutant when I was a cadet in Officers Training Academy, Chennai.....Good officer and a gentleman.

ambidex
22 Aug 13,, 15:37
Chinese Incursion Caught On Tape | India | www.indiatimes.com (http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/chinese-incursion-caught-on-tape-96833.html)

This is how these sneaky PLA troops are encroaching into Indian territories. They needed to be over powered with hands to stop them crossing our bulwarks. Few managed to run down into Indian territory. Few were trying to offer Cigarettes. I salute the patience of Indian soldiers who are protecting our borders with hands with no mandate from political class to shoot these infiltrators.

This video will go into archives of history to show rest of the world how our patience has been tested by China.

Mohan
22 Aug 13,, 17:51
Respect to the Assam rifles who is serving there now and the commander in that position. Things can flare up pretty quick. We have to make sure that it should be punished in some way. Other wise the frequency of these incidents will increase. I am not a military man, but i feel our soldiers hands are tied there and its sad to see we are the ones requesting the chinese to leave.

cdude
23 Aug 13,, 03:10
Chinese Incursion Caught On Tape | India | www.indiatimes.com (http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/chinese-incursion-caught-on-tape-96833.html)

This is how these sneaky PLA troops are encroaching into Indian territories. They needed to be over powered with hands to stop them crossing our bulwarks. Few managed to run down into Indian territory. Few were trying to offer Cigarettes. I salute the patience of Indian soldiers who are protecting our borders with hands with no mandate from political class to shoot these infiltrators.

This video will go into archives of history to show rest of the world how our patience has been tested by China.

My microwave has more pixels than that video.

Just because you put up a 2 feet wall somewhere doesn't mean inside it's all your land. It's called disputed land.

lemontree
23 Aug 13,, 05:03
My microwave has more pixels than that video.
I agree, its from a Chinese made camera, so we can't help with the quality.


Just because you put up a 2 feet wall somewhere doesn't mean inside it's all your land. It's called disputed land.
It works both ways, the only solution is to sit across and sort it out. There has to be some give and take from both sides.

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 05:30
From what I saw ... and this is weird, they were dancing. I've seen more violence on a football (American) line. Everybody was holding everybody else. Nobody was even pushing nor shoving ... and most certainly, no punches were thrown. All firearms were slinged.

Frankly, I be embarrassed (Chinese or Indian) if this got leaked.

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 05:33
It works both ways, the only solution is to sit across and sort it out. There has to be some give and take from both sides.Seriously, Captain, does either side wants this settled? This is a border clash? And your meetings with the Chinese ends with drinks and dinner (btw, do you guys take turns on who is to cook. I think that was Chinese cooking being shown).

No doubt, there are serious border problems between China and India ... but the militaries ain't being serious about it.

ambidex
23 Aug 13,, 05:35
Just because you put up a 2 feet wall somewhere doesn't mean inside it's all your land. It's called disputed land.

Disputed land doesn't mean your PLA unit can behave like pussies, commanded by some dick head who orders them to jump over the fences and be man handled.

DarthSiddius
23 Aug 13,, 05:35
IT'S CALLED THE TUG OF WAR.:scared:

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 05:40
*** groan ***

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 05:42
Disputed land doesn't mean your PLA unit can behave like pussies, commanded by some dick head who orders them to jump over the fences and be man handled.Honestly, both sides looked like pussies.

ambidex
23 Aug 13,, 05:50
Honestly, both sides looked like pussies.

I saw disgust and tension mounting with India troops there.

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 05:56
I saw disgust and tension mounting with India troops there.Too grainy for me to make out the faces ... but even if true, the fault of your leaders. No contingency was made to meet the eventuality of the Chinese breaching the barrier. Since lethal force is not authorized, you're left with this tango. At the very least, a human wall should have stood their ground but your leaders did not anticipated it ... and this turned into a joke.

Look, you were embarrassed. Not shot. It's not the end of the world ... and quite funny.

DarthSiddius
23 Aug 13,, 06:00
They just hugged each other after consumption of a certain beverage. Nothing to see here, bros being bros :hug:

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 06:25
I saw disgust and tension mounting with India troops there.I will say this.

It says a hell of a lot between the two armies when the Chinese chooses embarrassment over fire. I mean, can you imagine Pakistani soldiers doing the same?

The Chinese trusts you not to use lethal force which in turn allow them to make this embarrassing display of soldiering.

I know this could never happen between us and the Warsaw Pact.

ambidex
23 Aug 13,, 07:24
I will say this.

It says a hell of a lot between the two armies when the Chinese chooses embarrassment over fire. I mean, can you imagine Pakistani soldiers doing the same?

The Chinese trusts you not to use lethal force which in turn allow them to make this embarrassing display of soldiering.

I know this could never happen between us and the Warsaw Pact.

Yes, It is a failure of leadership with ranks of InA that now they have gone down defending their posts with hands. But at the same time Chinese are trying their luck and soon will end up using all their chances of trusting InA like Pakistanis did after 1965 war.

BTW there is no trend or news about InA doing the same inside territory under Chinese control. There are large number of detailed reports on every Chinese incursion. It is not that InA doesn't want to resolve this border issue, they know sanity of borders will be establish once shooting war starts. We are quite capable to defend our forward posts at LAC. It's all about not having China as a branded enemy like Pakistan we have.

lemontree
23 Aug 13,, 08:39
Seriously, Captain, does either side wants this settled? This is a border clash? And your meetings with the Chinese ends with drinks and dinner (btw, do you guys take turns on who is to cook. I think that was Chinese cooking being shown).

No doubt, there are serious border problems between China and India ... but the militaries ain't being serious about it.

Sir, both sides want this setteled, and this is hardly a clash.
China is sending these patrols to lay claim on that part of land, and also to force the Indian political class to sit down and thrash the border issue. These are "claim establishment parties" not tactical military ops.

The Indian problem is that, no political party has the balls to take a strong decision, because any agreement with China will involve some give and take of land. No one wants to be called a sellout.

IMHO, the status of the two disputed regions (Aksai Chin and Arunachal):-
- Area upto Tawang in Arunachal, was in all fairness a Tibetan province. In 1941 the British took over this region seeing the growing strength of the Chinese Communist forces and to use the area as a defendable buffer zone.
- Ownership of Aksai Chin was a hazzy area, some our old maps did not include thsi area, but later maps included it, but the area was continues with the Tibetan plateau. This area gained strategic importance for China once it occupied Tibet as it provided it an easy communication route to Xinjiang.

China has no interest in Arunachal, but Aksai Chin is vital for them and most analysts believe that they (China) are willing to the trade and soolve the border issue.

Our politicians (ruling and opposition) must sit down and decide on the exchange is acceptable to India and put it forward to the Chinese, and thrash it out with them.

Till then we use banners, share beers and smokes to show them that we are here too.

cdude
23 Aug 13,, 12:09
I agree, its from a Chinese made camera, so we can't help with the quality.
My microwave is also Chinese made. Easy solution, next time tell your cameraman use a microwave.



It works both ways, the only solution is to sit across and sort it out. There has to be some give and take from both sides.

Agreed

cdude
23 Aug 13,, 12:17
Disputed land doesn't mean your PLA unit can behave like pussies, commanded by some dick head who orders them to jump over the fences and be man handled.

You are the only one here who's not happy that nobody got shot. And PLA behaved like pussies? They just wrestled through your wall and invaded "your" land. Nothing happened to them, no?

The video shows this is some routine interaction between the two sides and if not for the cameraman's existence, the Indian soldiers probably would take the cigarettes offered to them. No big deal, and they know it.

Double Edge
23 Aug 13,, 13:17
Our politicians (ruling and opposition) must sit down and decide on the exchange is acceptable to India and put it forward to the Chinese, and thrash it out with them.
How badly does India want to resolve this situation. It seems manageable and we've got some equilibrium here. China is the more interested party. They keep pushing the issue in hopes of getting a favourable outcome but we're not biting. From our pov either the price or time isn't right, this is why our politicians aren't moving. They don't see a significant upside here as yet. So we move in small steps instead of bigger ones which frustrates the Chinese.

Trade is increasing between the countries so this dispute isn't a major hinderance. Trade could be more between the two but its not insignificant either.


Till then we use banners, share beers and smokes to show them that we are here too.
Best thing to do for both militaries until the higher-ups decide what is in our interest.

Blademaster
23 Aug 13,, 13:49
*sighs*

As long as PLA does not use force, I see no reason to escalate it, only that we ask that we be allowed to stumble across the border and do the same thing, singing Bollywood tunes and swilling beers. I am a hawkish person but I don't mind having the borders being like that. It is in the interests of India to have a border like US shares the border with Canada without losing anything in return. Saves a lot of money and put our resources to better use.

cdude
23 Aug 13,, 14:03
Trade is increasing between the countries so this dispute isn't a major hinderance. Trade could be more between the two but its not insignificant either.


It's not just trade. Also the money both sides have to invest to maintain the equilibrium. Think of the money China spends on Nepal/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Maldives/Bhutan/Burma. And the counter moves India has to put up with.

As I said before, that kind of money can be better used elsewhere, especially for India.

But someone has to make money, I guess (weapon exporters and politicians).

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 15:22
It's not just trade. Also the money both sides have to invest to maintain the equilibrium. Think of the money China spends on Nepal/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Maldives/Bhutan/Burma. And the counter moves India has to put up with.That is not going to change no matter how friendly the border. Canada and the US share the largest open border on earth and we still have military bases close to the border. No, we don't send out patrols like the Indians and the Chinese but our border guards are still busier than their soldiers.

cdude
23 Aug 13,, 15:40
That is not going to change no matter how friendly the border. Canada and the US share the largest open border on earth and we still have military bases close to the border. No, we don't send out patrols like the Indians and the Chinese but our border guards are still busier than their soldiers.

I was talking about "aid" China offered to India's neighbors and vice versa. You don't see Canada and the US dolling out money to gain influence in Mexico.

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 15:44
I was talking about "aid" China offered to India's neighbors and vice versa. You don't see Canada and the US dolling out money to gain influence in Mexico.Of course we do. It's called the NAFTA.

cdude
23 Aug 13,, 16:08
Of course we do. It's called the NAFTA.

The whole point of NAFTA is to kill unions in the US. And it's been very successful.

Double Edge
23 Aug 13,, 16:08
It's not just trade. Also the money both sides have to invest to maintain the equilibrium. Think of the money China spends on Nepal/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Maldives/Bhutan/Burma. And the counter moves India has to put up with.
Already done it, what's changed. Not much.

India's holding out for a better bargain. So make a better offer.


But someone has to make money, I guess (weapon exporters and politicians).
Bulk of that money is going towards the navy.

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 16:19
The whole point of NAFTA is to kill unions in the US. And it's been very successful.And made Mexico a whole bunch of money.

Blademaster
23 Aug 13,, 16:44
And made Mexico a whole bunch of money.

Which US wants to keep the illegal immigration down and create a market for US goods. It is a two way street not one way. There is no point in trading with Mexico if Mexico doesn't have any money.

Officer of Engineers
23 Aug 13,, 17:22
Which US wants to keep the illegal immigration down and create a market for US goods. It is a two way street not one way. There is no point in trading with Mexico if Mexico doesn't have any money.Mexico has oil.

payeng
23 Aug 13,, 17:43
My microwave is also Chinese made. Easy solution, next time tell your cameraman use a microwave.



Agreed

Not sure why you want to use a microwave but the point is your microwave wasn't available at the time of incident so therefore that camera have came out to be much useful then your self acclaimed high pixel microwave and more over it seems like people here are discussing the footage recorded by that camera and not interested in knowing the specs of your microwave whatever.

cdude
23 Aug 13,, 22:56
Already done it, what's changed. Not much.

India's holding out for a better bargain. So make a better offer.


Bulk of that money is going towards the navy.

Don't you think India's neighbors are more and more drawn to China's investment. India could've settled for a reasonable deal like all other of China's land neighbors. All have prospered.

30 years ago, China and India had roughly the same GDP. Now, China is 5X of India and growing faster. Why should China give you a better deal? I am honestly asking. What have your ruling class been drinking? Too much coolaid from Thomas Friedman, aka MIC wants to make some rupees.

zraver
24 Aug 13,, 00:03
cdude, you are a nationalist fanboi troll will you please just shut up.

Double Edge
24 Aug 13,, 00:33
Don't you think India's neighbors are more and more drawn to China's investment. India could've settled for a reasonable deal like all other of China's land neighbors. All have prospered.
There's been progress over the last ten years. Borders has been stuck since the last five. We did the easy bits the harder ones are more tricky.

Already China is India's second (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_India) biggest trading partner. India is China's fifth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_China) biggest trading partner (going by countries). I don't see those rankings changing in the next decade but the figures between the two will grow significantly. That's progress.

Could we do with more Chinese investment ? certainly. The one sector that would benefit the most would be infrastructure. The metro in my city & Delhi got moving when the Japanese put up half the cost at generous loan rates. China could easily exceed the same if we permitted it. I have a feeling we will be more open in the coming years to this sort of investment if we want to sustain our growth rate. With the world and China. That will be yet another keenly contested & close fight.

But you have to realise that we tend to be circumspect about getting close to greater powers as it creates conflicts of interest. What is close and what is too close. Call it historical baggage. Take the nuke power deal with the US in 2008, govt almost fell trying to clinch that deal. This was to open up to the US in a broader way. To open up to China is going to take more time. More confidence building. More people to people contact. Right now only the business class is familiar with China. The man in the street is quite ignorant. China/India relationship also suffers from historical baggage.

Our system works on the consent of the people, not necessarily what is most profitable for the country at any point in time. This is by design. The slow pace can be quite maddening but that's the way it is. There are slower states and not so slow states in the union. The trick is get the laggards to catch up. Can only happen if people of those states give their consent.


30 years ago, China and India had roughly the same GDP. Now, China is 5X of India and growing faster. Why should China give you a better deal? I am honestly asking. What have your ruling class been drinking? Too much coolaid from Thomas Friedman, aka MIC wants to make some rupees.
That's the magic of growth. Bigger numbers grow faster than smaller ones.

Looks like our soldiers are going to be sharing beers & smokes for some time to come :biggrin:

cdude
24 Aug 13,, 02:28
There's been progress over the last ten years. Borders has been stuck since the last five. We did the easy bits the harder ones are more tricky.

Already China is India's second (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_India) biggest trading partner. India is China's fifth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_China) biggest trading partner (going by countries). I don't see those rankings changing in the next decade but the figures between the two will grow significantly. That's progress.

Could we do with more Chinese investment ? certainly. The one sector that would benefit the most would be infrastructure. The metro in my city & Delhi got moving when the Japanese put up half the cost at generous loan rates. China could easily exceed the same if we permitted it. I have a feeling we will be more open in the coming years to this sort of investment if we want to sustain our growth rate. With the world and China. That will be yet another keenly contested & close fight.

But you have to realise that we tend to be circumspect about getting close to greater powers as it creates conflicts of interest. What is close and what is too close. Call it historical baggage. Take the nuke power deal with the US in 2008, govt almost fell trying to clinch that deal. This was to open up to the US in a broader way. To open up to China is going to take more time. More confidence building. More people to people contact. Right now only the business class is familiar with China. The man in the street is quite ignorant. China/India relationship also suffers from historical baggage.

Our system works on the consent of the people, not necessarily what is most profitable for the country at any point in time. This is by design. The slow pace can be quite maddening but that's the way it is. There are slower states and not so slow states in the union. The trick is get the laggards to catch up. Can only happen if people of those states give their consent.


That's the magic of growth. Bigger numbers grow faster than smaller ones.

Looks like our soldiers are going to be sharing beers & smokes for some time to come :biggrin:


It looks all cool and dandy now. But if one rogue soldier did anything stupid, it would be really ugly. All I am saying is the current status quo is not the worst, but it sure as hell should be improved.

And your media's sensationalist style of reporting is not really helping.

Officer of Engineers
24 Aug 13,, 04:46
I now think I misread the situation. This is akin to the WWI Christmas truce. Soldiers from both sides are now tolerating and exchanging gifts as a matter of embarrassment, as a point of fun. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Like the Christmas Truce, both sides would not hesitate to exchange fire tomorrow.

anil
24 Aug 13,, 06:06
30 years ago, China and India had roughly the same GDP. Now, China is 5X of India and growing faster.
And you think this is a coincidence?

What do you think independent india's goal was?

payeng
24 Aug 13,, 09:45
At the last part of the video I read a footer: "Authenticity of footage not independently verified". It seems like a degraded quality video for public viewing and for people like cdude who could proudly exhibit his gizmos like microwave :D

Double Edge
24 Aug 13,, 13:45
It looks all cool and dandy now. But if one rogue soldier did anything stupid, it would be really ugly.
Look at our history. Already happened in '67 & '86. Cooler heads prevailed. Am betting the same happens again because there is no incentive to escalate for either country.

Look at the future, both countries navies are building up. Could it happen at sea. Possibly in the backdrop of some other development but again same outcome expected.


All I am saying is the current status quo is not the worst, but it sure as hell should be improved.
No argument from me. Would like to understand better what is the hold up.


And your media's sensationalist style of reporting is not really helping.
They want to sell product and will give a voice to anybody that helps them. This also has a negative effect in other topics besides China. Forget the media, its the strategic community and the Indian right that you have to convince. What would you tell them. How would you persuade them as to China's 'real' intent here ? Reading this board over the years i can see a little better but others remain unconvinced, sceptical, suspicious and even hostile.

I'm starting to see China's recent (over the last 5 years) transgressions as a sign of interest on China's side to resolve the border issue. But they see these transgressions as a sign of expansionist intent. China as a potential encroacher. This is the thinking you're up against. Anyway, we've upgraded some of our forward posts, stationed a couple of mountain regiments near by, started to improve roads in the concerned areas etc.

cdude
24 Aug 13,, 15:02
Look at our history. Already happened in '67 & '86. Cooler heads prevailed. Am betting the same happens again because there is no incentive to escalate for either country.

Look at the future, both countries navies are building up. Could it happen at sea. Possibly in the backdrop of some other development but again same outcome expected.


No argument from me. Would like to understand better what is the hold up.


They want to sell product and will give a voice to anybody that helps them. This also has a negative effect in other topics besides China. Forget the media, its the strategic community and the Indian right that you have to convince. What would you tell them. How would you persuade them as to China's 'real' intent here ? Reading this board over the years i can see a little better but others remain unconvinced, sceptical, suspicious and even hostile.

I'm starting to see China's recent (over the last 5 years) transgressions as a sign of interest on China's side to resolve the border issue. But they see these transgressions as a sign of expansionist intent. China as a potential encroacher. This is the thinking you're up against. Anyway, we've upgraded some of our forward posts, stationed a couple of mountain regiments near by, started to improve roads in the concerned areas etc.

China provokes India again, intrudes 30 kms inside Arunachal Pradesh - Video | The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/China-provokes-India-again-intrudes-30-kms-inside-Arunachal-Pradesh/videoshow/21953361.cms)

Probably the 60 km intrusion claim is a little bit exaggerated as India never fully controlled the whole AP shown in your map. But is this the better deal your ruling class is waiting for?

And I don't know where you built your roads but apparently not there.

payeng
24 Aug 13,, 18:11
China provokes India again, intrudes 30 kms inside Arunachal Pradesh - Video | The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/China-provokes-India-again-intrudes-30-kms-inside-Arunachal-Pradesh/videoshow/21953361.cms)

Probably the 60 km intrusion claim is a little bit exaggerated as India never fully controlled the whole AP shown in your map. But is this the better deal your ruling class is waiting for?

And I don't know where you built your roads but apparently not there.

There is no ruling class herein India as in other form of governance, people vote their choice and legislature is formed, it depends upon the general public for a party to form a government, a peoples representative, the term ruling class sounds autocratic as per examples prevailing else where, we dont even have a dual party system, unless you are a fanboy/jingo of Indian political system the term "ruling class" stands an inappropriate notion.

anil
24 Aug 13,, 20:18
I'm starting to see China's recent (over the last 5 years) transgressions as a sign of interest on China's side to resolve the border issue. But they see these transgressions as a sign of expansionist intent.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/images/darksmiles/eek.gif

anil
24 Aug 13,, 20:34
Man asks another man a question: What is 1 plus 1? "Three" says the other man. I'll try again he thinks and repeats the same question, "five" comes the next answer, followed by "eight", "seventeen", "ninety two"...

Double Edge
25 Aug 13,, 01:05
China provokes India again, intrudes 30 kms inside Arunachal Pradesh - Video | The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/China-provokes-India-again-intrudes-30-kms-inside-Arunachal-Pradesh/videoshow/21953361.cms)

Probably the 60 km intrusion claim is a little bit exaggerated as India never fully controlled the whole AP shown in your map. But is this the better deal your ruling class is waiting for?

And I don't know where you built your roads but apparently not there.
Flexing muscles, provoking....Times Now is good for hype.

There seems to be some doubt as to the extent of the intrusion. Is it 30 or 60kms. Title says 30, local poitico interviewed says 60.

Did it happen or not. Saw a quick flash that already the army has denied it. Denied what ? How far in or whether intrusion happened at all.

Next, where along the border it happened. Seems Ladakh and anywhere in Arunachal are the most common. Why these areas only and not elsewhere. If memory serves those are the two most common areas where intrusions occur. Maybe, possibly those two areas are outstanding unresolved areas for discussion which no agreement has been reached.

Then, Chinese troops come stay a little bit then return. Coming & going. This is the pattern.

The roads are to be built in Arunachal. This is boon for the people of the area, who live in a region with the highest rainfall in the world as well as tough terrain. Maintenance of roads in that region is expensive. With the China threat, funding for roads maintenance comes easier. This helps the people there. So a local politician making the point = why can't India do more for Arunachal.

Deal i'm referring to is China is pushing the issue, we're holding out. why ? Time is not right or price is not right. What other reason is there. Our passive resistance must be working because your guys keep dropping by. China is the more interested party here.

If someone keeps bugging you to sort something out that you're either not ready for or not interested in then you ignore them until you're ready or they make a better offer.

What other conclusion could you draw ?

lemontree
25 Aug 13,, 06:08
My microwave is also Chinese made. Easy solution, next time tell your cameraman use a microwave.


Instead of making silly comments, why don't you give examples of the poor arms purchase decisions made by Indian politicians "that you have been arguing about".

anil
25 Aug 13,, 15:07
What other conclusion could you draw ?
You're looking at things from the chinese PoV, which is correct but you have come to a wrong conclusion.

The chinese and indians are culturally very different. Culturally, indians follow practices which are not familiar to the chinese or they interpret it differently. We learned the significance of this cultural difference the hard way in 1962 caught with our pants down. A lot of indians took it culturally, as an act of utmost hideousness. What we consider as strategy, they interpret it as sign of weakness and thus as an opportunity. It has made us come to terms with the psyche of this opponent. There is good reason why the indian army says that 1962 cannot happen again.

The current ongoing intrusions are sort of questions. We give the wrong answer but they know we are lying.

Officer of Engineers
25 Aug 13,, 15:16
Oh baloney, India and China have been signing treaties for over 2000 years with all your neighbours which includes Central Asia as well as Persia. Both countries know how the game is played.

anil
25 Aug 13,, 15:22
^Will the chinese attempt to do a kargil redux to satisfy their curiosity

We'll only have to wait and find out

Officer of Engineers
25 Aug 13,, 15:36
^Will the chinese attempt to do a kargil redux to satisfy their curiosityThey spent 30,000 lives to punish Vietnam. What do you think?

Blademaster
25 Aug 13,, 16:11
They spent 30,000 lives to punish Vietnam. What do you think?
Then India cannot afford to let her guard down and must be forever constant vigilant. India cannot allow china to pull off another Vietnam or 1962 war.

Officer of Engineers
25 Aug 13,, 16:21
The very fact that you're playing these "gift" wars states that India is extremely vigilant. She's not over-reacting and reading the Chinese to the hilt. Not a single shot fired despite the "intrusions" and you're prepared to give gifts in exchange states exactly that you're not prepared to be outdone by the Chinese. They give you beer, you give them pastries (think they got the better of the deal - Bud?)

I now have no illusions both sides can start shooting at each other tomorrow but your escalation are banners, not fire.

But to state there is a cultural difference ignores the 1000s of treaties both civilizations have signed for over 2000 years.

anil
25 Aug 13,, 16:44
OoE,

IMO, it'll be very difficult for china to hold back its senses for a long time.

Officer of Engineers
25 Aug 13,, 18:51
The Chinese wants to talk. India does not. The status quo satisfies India for the moment. Neither side wants to revert to war that could damage $billions in trade. The Chinese are willing to buy you, failing that, willing to annoy you, but they're not ready to fight you, not by a long shot.

anil
26 Aug 13,, 06:48
The chinese(like the pakistanis) don't want talks. The chinese want arunachal pradesh just like the pakistanis want kashmir.

Double Edge
26 Aug 13,, 17:45
You're looking at things from the chinese PoV, which is correct but you have come to a wrong conclusion.

The chinese and indians are culturally very different. Culturally, indians follow practices which are not familiar to the chinese or they interpret it differently. We learned the significance of this cultural difference the hard way in 1962 caught with our pants down. A lot of indians took it culturally, as an act of utmost hideousness. What we consider as strategy, they interpret it as sign of weakness and thus as an opportunity. It has made us come to terms with the psyche of this opponent. There is good reason why the indian army says that 1962 cannot happen again.

The current ongoing intrusions are sort of questions. We give the wrong answer but they know we are lying.
LT said it would be political suicide for any Indian party to settle this issue. That to me means the Chinese offer as it stands presently on currently disputed areas isn't worth our while. As simple as that.

How much are the Chinese compromising here. If they meet us some way maybe there is something to work with. I don't believe its that intractable a problem. Otherwise status quo holds.

So Chinese are interested but how serious. If it was serious i expect a replay of 2008 nuke deal. Polarised, down to the wire kind of result in parliament. We got over the cultural differences with the Americans which is a decade more recent. Just see the general theme of posts here over the years and probably in parliament as well over this issue. Its about why these intrusions are happening, how prepared are we or how well can we defend ourselves in case of a war. Its not about how quickly can we resolve this issue. The interest in parliament over resolving this issue just isn't there because there isn't anything to talk about, for now.

There are very good reasons to have normal relations with China. Given both are developing countries, the synergy that would result with more cooperation is win-win. Infrastructure cooperation and even civil nuclear cooperation are easy to do.

I don't know much about the content of these talks, just going on the results.

cdude talks about corrosive effect of Indian media i think Indian media is very helpful in pushing the case. Forces people to talk about the issue. Cannot ignore it. Maybe the Chinese have a plan, but they need critical mass in India to develop before they can unveil it.

lemontree
27 Aug 13,, 05:02
Its about why these intrusions are happening, how prepared are we or how well can we defend ourselves in case of a war. Its not about how quickly can we resolve this issue.

To tell you why these intrusions are happening, a cronology of how it has evolved over the years:-

- 1962 - 1980s: Indian are had very little surveillance/ domination over the LAC, due to lack of military confidence within the political establishment.
- 1980s: Indian troops started domination patrols and surveillance activities. Chinese patroling into Indian claim areas was retaliated with intrusions in Chinese areas.
- 1990s: Chinese patrols were being shadowed. One major incident to was during the 1999 Kargil war - a mechanised PLA patrol with a troop of tanks and platoon minus (2 APCs) carried out an intrusion in Ladhak. Actions like these changed many things and the GOI took congnisance of the concerns of the armed forces. Stategic changes were made in the movement a and location assets being moved to address China, including development of infrastructure in the border areas.

2000s: Now Chinese patrols are being challenged, we have also disarmed small PLA patrols when we can intercept them in strength. This was one of the reasons for the Depsang intrusion this year.

Earlier the PLA use to have a free run, and walk in whenever they could. Now they are finding that difficult and are under surveillance and observation. They know not to escalate the situation as our troops will give back as good as they get or even better. So waving banners is something they are happy with too.

cdude
27 Aug 13,, 16:23
To tell you why these intrusions are happening, a cronology of how it has evolved over the years:-

- 1962 - 1980s: Indian are had very little surveillance/ domination over the LAC, due to lack of military confidence within the political establishment.
- 1980s: Indian troops started domination patrols and surveillance activities. Chinese patroling into Indian claim areas was retaliated with intrusions in Chinese areas.
- 1990s: Chinese patrols were being shadowed. One major incident to was during the 1999 Kargil war - a mechanised PLA patrol with a troop of tanks and platoon minus (2 APCs) carried out an intrusion in Ladhak. Actions like these changed many things and the GOI took congnisance of the concerns of the armed forces. Stategic changes were made in the movement a and location assets being moved to address China, including development of infrastructure in the border areas.

2000s: Now Chinese patrols are being challenged, we have also disarmed small PLA patrols when we can intercept them in strength. This was one of the reasons for the Depsang intrusion this year.

Earlier the PLA use to have a free run, and walk in whenever they could. Now they are finding that difficult and are under surveillance and observation. They know not to escalate the situation as our troops will give back as good as they get or even better. So waving banners is something they are happy with too.

LOL, remember Chairman Mao? He always wanted to teach your ruling class a long lasting lesson. Apparently it was good for 20 years.

Not too bad as far as lessons go.

anil
27 Aug 13,, 17:57
edit

cdude
27 Aug 13,, 18:32
Now tell me more about the lessons china taught india in 1962 dumdum

In lemontree's word "- 1962 - 1980s: Indian are had very little surveillance/ domination over the LAC, due to lack of military confidence within the political establishment."

Go argue with him, not me.

And the audacity you have. Rumors send thousands fleeing in India (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/17/world/asia/india-violence)
If you think China doesn't know India's problems everywhere, you are seriously underestimating China.

anil
27 Aug 13,, 18:41
edit

cdude
27 Aug 13,, 19:59
cdude,

If you don't understand how india can cause "existential crisis" psychosis across the whole continent(including china) without the use of military, then you don't understand the meaning of "india" and grossly under-estimate it.

No, I dont. Tell me how "India can cause "existential crisis" psychosis across the whole continent without the use of military"?

DarthSiddius
27 Aug 13,, 20:05
I don't know what's going on anymore, this thread was supposed to be about Bud! :mad:

antimony
28 Aug 13,, 15:46
LOL, remember Chairman Mao? He always wanted to teach your ruling class a long lasting lesson. Apparently it was good for 20 years.

Not too bad as far as lessons go.

You mean this guy?

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/east-asia-pacific/63042-did-mao-murder-millions-chinese.html

cdude
28 Aug 13,, 16:06
You mean this guy?

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/east-asia-pacific/63042-did-mao-murder-millions-chinese.html

Yep, that guy. Mao was senile/retarded/crazy in his last 20 years of reign. And 1962 was the last year of the great leapforward. China was absolutely in disarray.
Yet even this senile/retarded/crazy dude managed out a win against you guys in 1962.....


Let it sink in.

Doktor
28 Aug 13,, 17:04
The "senile/retarded/crazy dude" part explains the retreat after the decisive win I guess.

cdude
28 Aug 13,, 17:08
The "senile/retarded/crazy dude" part explains the retreat after the decisive win I guess.

Actually, no.

Why don't you ask OOE? He can give you a long lecture on why the retreat happened.

Doktor
28 Aug 13,, 17:19
Actually, no.
Then who ordered the retreat?


Why don't you ask OOE? He can give you a long lecture on why the retreat happened.
Nice skipping.

antimony
28 Aug 13,, 18:07
Actually, no.

Why don't you ask OOE? He can give you a long lecture on why the retreat happened.

He already did

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/ground-warfare/4342-india-s-new-cold-start-war-doctrine-strategically-reviewed-2.html


The Chinese action was fast, bold, and decisive ... but they retreated and from a military standpoint, they ran home as fast as they could having collapsed their own LOC through their faster than expected and farther than expected advance and two very big and very angry Indian corps were coming at them foaming at the mouth.

antimony
28 Aug 13,, 18:09
He already did

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/ground-warfare/4342-india-s-new-cold-start-war-doctrine-strategically-reviewed-2.html

Also, looked like he wanted to teach the chinese a lesson more than he wanted to teach India one, given his contribution to your cause.

cdude
28 Aug 13,, 18:18
He already did

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/ground-warfare/4342-india-s-new-cold-start-war-doctrine-strategically-reviewed-2.html

Yeah, good find. That's the post I was referring to. The retreat was anything but retarded.

I suspect it was the plan to start with. In no way and shape, could the PLA hold south tibet for an extened period of time. And PLA knew it before the war.

cdude
28 Aug 13,, 18:20
Also, looked like he wanted to teach the chinese a lesson more than he wanted to teach India one, given his contribution to your cause.

He sure did. He also wanted to be the No.1 in the communist world after Stalin's death. That old crazy bastard.

Doktor
28 Aug 13,, 20:15
Chinese got what they wanted, the Indian patrols stopped.

Also, as a side, unplanned effect, China alienated India from USA who didn't help on time. Also, they got Pakistan.

There was a con, tho, with India going to Soviets for arms.

Not bad for senile retard.

Blademaster
28 Aug 13,, 20:46
Chinese got what they wanted, the Indian patrols stopped.

Also, as a side, unplanned effect, China alienated India from USA who didn't help on time. Also, they got Pakistan.

There was a con, tho, with India going to Soviets for arms.

Not bad for senile retard.

Not really. Now China had to worry about its southern flank and having two fronts as opposed to one flank. If it wasn't for Nixon, China would have been completely surrounded. Mao just lucked out that Nixon became the President.

Doktor
28 Aug 13,, 20:57
Audaces fortuna iuvat.

China had to worry about the south anyway. Indians were being aggressive with their forward patrols. They had to deescalate it.

You seriously believe if it was Kennedy he would have let the Soviets attack PRC?

Blademaster
28 Aug 13,, 21:13
Audaces fortuna iuvat.

China had to worry about the south anyway. Indians were being aggressive with their forward patrols. They had to deescalate it.

You seriously believe if it was Kennedy he would have let the Soviets attack PRC?

Are you trying to blame the Indians for starting 1962? You just lost credibility right there.

cdude
28 Aug 13,, 21:22
Are you trying to blame the Indians for starting 1962? You just lost credibility right there.

You cannot blame him. Blame your ruling class that didn't bribe Neville Maxwell, or Henry Kissinger.

Blademaster
28 Aug 13,, 21:33
You cannot blame him. Blame your ruling class that didn't bribe Neville Maxwell, or Henry Kissinger.

How about this? I blame you. Troll somewhere else.

cdude
28 Aug 13,, 21:46
Audaces fortuna iuvat.

China had to worry about the south anyway. Indians were being aggressive with their forward patrols. They had to deescalate it.

You seriously believe if it was Kennedy he would have let the Soviets attack PRC?

HENDERSON BROOKS REPORT: AN INTRODUCTION Neville ... (http://indianstrategicknowledgeonline.com/web/China%20Henderson%20Brooks%20Report.pdf)

Well, according to Maxwell, the Indian army were bold, too bold.

Doktor
28 Aug 13,, 21:52
Are you trying to blame the Indians for starting 1962? You just lost credibility right there.

I am just trying to see trough Chinese eyes. Those patrols were torn in their eyes. They invaded, Indian patrols stopped. China accomplished their objective.

cdude
28 Aug 13,, 22:05
I am just trying to see trough Chinese eyes. Those patrols were torn in their eyes. They invaded, Indian patrols stopped. China accomplished their objective.

You mean China's ruling class. 99% of the Chinese population never heard of this war. It has one paragraph of 3 lines in our high school history book (I recently checked). I didn't know nothing about this war until talking to Indians here in the States.

Reason: too many more important/epic shits happened since 1900 in China. We fought bigger wars with Japan/Soviet Union/US/UN/UK/France/KMT/Vietnam/Taiwan/ourselves, probably millions of Chinese died that year in 1962 due to starvation. Cultural revolution and shit, Civil war with the Qing/War lords/Commie vs Nationalists. Deng Xiaoping and getting HK/Macau back and shits.

That war didn't even register. If we lost the war, the government could easily covered it up and nobody would see any difference. It didn't matter to China one way or another.

Doktor
28 Aug 13,, 22:17
You mean China's ruling class. 99% of the Chinese population never heard of this war. It has one paragraph of 3 lines in our high school history book (I recently checked). I didn't know nothing about this war until talking to Indians here in the States.

Reason: too many more important/epic shits happened since 1900 in China. We fought bigger wars with Japan/Soviet Union/US/UN/UK/France/KMT/Vietnam/Taiwan/ourselves, probably millions of Chinese died that year in 1962 due to starvation. Cultural revolution and shit, Civil war with the Qing/War lords/Commie vs Nationalists. Deng Xiaoping and getting HK/Macau back and shits.

That war didn't even register. If we lost the war, the government could easily covered it up and nobody would see any difference. It didn't matter to China one way or another.

So much history, so little classes. I believe you it was 3 lines, saying "we won" at the end.

Anyway, even the report you posted claims the same, Chinese ruling class (since you like to call em that), seen Indian posture as a threat. They had to solve it fast and they did it. However, they were aware they couldn't hold it forever and only defused the situation, leaving it for some better times. Which are yet to come.

cdude
28 Aug 13,, 22:28
So much history, so little classes. I believe you it was 3 lines, saying "we won" at the end.


And since history is not in the exams for college entrance, nobody gives a shit in our history classes. I doubt any of my classmates noticed those lines. I know I didn't.

Oh by the way, in our history books, we won all the wars since 1936 when Mao stepped up to the CCP leadership. So that's that.



Anyway, even the report you posted claims the same, Chinese ruling class (since you like to call em that), seen Indian posture as a threat. They had to solve it fast and they did it. However, they were aware they couldn't hold it forever and only defused the situation, leaving it for some better times. Which are yet to come.

That's probably a fair statement. China probably didn't have the money to play a long war. Mao was more focused on class struggles anyways.

antimony
28 Aug 13,, 23:45
You mean China's ruling class. 99% of the Chinese population never heard of this war. It has one paragraph of 3 lines in our high school history book (I recently checked). I didn't know nothing about this war until talking to Indians here in the States.

Reason: too many more important/epic shits happened since 1900 in China. We fought bigger wars with Japan/Soviet Union/US/UN/UK/France/KMT/Vietnam/Taiwan/ourselves, probably millions of Chinese died that year in 1962 due to starvation. Cultural revolution and shit, Civil war with the Qing/War lords/Commie vs Nationalists. Deng Xiaoping and getting HK/Macau back and shits.

That war didn't even register. If we lost the war, the government could easily covered it up and nobody would see any difference. It didn't matter to China one way or another.

Glad to know we had less epic shit in our lives that this "unimportant war" was somehow important.

Double Edge
29 Aug 13,, 10:40
LOL, remember Chairman Mao? He always wanted to teach your ruling class a long lasting lesson. Apparently it was good for 20 years.

Not too bad as far as lessons go.
Don't know about long lasting but India resolved not to have it happen again with the result we had operational superiority over China in the areas concerned from the late 70s to early 2000s.

That edge is slowly eroding for reasons that have nothing to do with India. China is modernising across the board. To get a nice summary, see this transcript (http://carnegieendowment.org/files/Balance_of_Power_Transcript.pdf) by Ashley Tellis from a discussion (http://carnegieendowment.org/2013/01/31/india-and-balance-of-power-in-asia/fawa) at the beginning of the year. He concludes..

..there is one strong suit, one ace in the hole that India still has as it begins to think of these long-term issues, and that is India’s partnership with other Asian countries, including the United States. This more than any other provides India with a certain advantage that China does not comfortably enjoy today. The limits, of course, of this tool in terms of India’s ability to sustain its position will depend entirely on the choices India makes. To the degree that India decides to invest in these strategic partnerships with other Asian powers, including the United States, it stands a fighting chance of being able to maintain an equilibrium it its favor.

Alliances. That age old remedy to counter imbalances.

Failed in '62 because of cunning Chinese timing but worked in '71.

lemontree
29 Aug 13,, 11:43
LOL, remember Chairman Mao? He always wanted to teach your ruling class a long lasting lesson. Apparently it was good for 20 years.

Not too bad as far as lessons go.
I'm glad, infact the Indian military is glad that 1962 happened, otherwise we would have been stuck with dumb idiots like KV Menon and a military genius like Fd Marshal SAM Manekshaw would have never risen.

BTW, SAM Manekshaw and his troops gave your boys quite a licking in 1967 in Nathu La, and that is one lesson your boys have never forgotten, that is 46 years and still counting.

lemontree
29 Aug 13,, 11:56
HENDERSON BROOKS REPORT: AN INTRODUCTION Neville ... (http://indianstrategicknowledgeonline.com/web/China%20Henderson%20Brooks%20Report.pdf)

Well, according to Maxwell, the Indian army were bold, too bold.

Actually the army wasn't being bold, they were going through a crisis with the civilian govt, who thought that they did not need an army, and who also thought that they could also direct the military in their professional operations. Otherwise, would an army take defences as the 7th Inf Bde of 4 inf Div had been ordered to, by a idiot politican?....No, the army was in no condition to fight a mountain war at that time.

cdude
29 Aug 13,, 16:35
Actually the army wasn't being bold, they were going through a crisis with the civilian govt, who thought that they did not need an army, and who also thought that they could also direct the military in their professional operations. Otherwise, would an army take defences as the 7th Inf Bde of 4 inf Div had been ordered to, by a idiot politican?....No, the army was in no condition to fight a mountain war at that time.

Ok, to be clear. I didn't mean your army. It's Nehru's passive aggressive ways of encroaching China's territories were pretty bold. Your army were probably just following orders from the top.

I read Maxwell's book in full length. And I asked myself, was this guy an idiot? In his defense, he was pretty old at the time.

cdude
29 Aug 13,, 16:48
I'm glad, infact the Indian military is glad that 1962 happened, otherwise we would have been stuck with dumb idiots like KV Menon and a military genius like Fd Marshal SAM Manekshaw would have never risen.

BTW, SAM Manekshaw and his troops gave your boys quite a licking in 1967 in Nathu La, and that is one lesson your boys have never forgotten, that is 46 years and still counting.

What lesson? Some made up victorious story over some small skirmish that nobody knows in China? Next time you will tell me an Indian soldier beat a Chinese soldier in a boxing match in New Dehli.

And did someone just post a video of Chinese soldiers running through indian soldiers and wrestled on Indian turf?

I can assure you that would not happen on the China Russia border.

lemontree
29 Aug 13,, 17:57
What lesson? Some made up victorious story over some small skirmish that nobody knows in China?
Why would your communist government tell your people that the PLA got clobbered by the IA that was "taught a lesson" 5 years ago?
Ignorance is bliss...so enjoy it.

lemontree
29 Aug 13,, 18:00
It's Nehru's passive aggressive ways of encroaching China's territories were pretty bold...

Not Nehru, but it was Mao who was encroaching on Indian territory.
If they had a problem with the MacMohan Line, then the same should have been settled with India, instead of moving in Aksai Chin like thieves.

JAD_333
29 Aug 13,, 18:01
Are we all done here?

cdude
29 Aug 13,, 19:26
Not Nehru, but it was Mao who was encroaching on Indian territory.
If they had a problem with the MacMohan Line, then the same should have been settled with India, instead of moving in Aksai Chin like thieves.

Oh well, Neville Maxwell says otherwise. And I will just leave it there.

Here (http://chinaindiaborderdispute.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/neville-maxwell-chinas-india-war.pdf)

JAD_333
29 Aug 13,, 19:57
Anyone want to comment before I close this thread?

Doktor
29 Aug 13,, 19:58
If it wasn't Bud, but real beer, this thread wouldn't deteriorate this bad :biggrin:

Officer of Engineers
29 Aug 13,, 20:06
It's the US's fault.

JAD_333
29 Aug 13,, 20:17
The Colonel has spoken. We're done.