PDA

View Full Version : Manning acquitted of aid the enemy, guilty of espionage.



zraver
30 Jul 13,, 19:34
The U.S. Army soldier charged with providing troves of government documents to the whistleblowing website Wikileaks was found not guilty Tuesday of aiding the enemy, the top charge in his 21-count indictment, which could have carried a life sentence.

Prosecutors had to prove Army Pfc. Bradley Manning had "a general evil intent" and knew the classified material would be seen by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. Legal experts said an aiding-the- enemy conviction could set a precedent because Manning did not directly give the classified material to Al Qaeda.

Bradley Manning not guilty of aiding the enemy in WikiLeaks case, convicted of lesser charges | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/30/bradley-manning-not-guilty-aiding-enemy-in-wikileaks-case-convicted-lesser/)

ZR- verdict seems to have followed a traditional course rather than breaking any new legal ground. Manning will probably be facing 20+ years.

TopHatter
30 Jul 13,, 21:43
Malignant little shit stain certainly got off easily.

Hey remember when Wikileaks was a big deal? Don't hear much about it anymore...probably because it couldn't prove what it so desperately wanted to: The U.S. government is an evil empire-building monolith that wants to control the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_Command).

Ah well, back to the drawing board.

gunnut
30 Jul 13,, 22:02
It's the corporations, man...

zraver
30 Jul 13,, 22:05
Malignant little shit stain certainly got off easily.

Hey remember when Wikileaks was a big deal? Don't hear much about it anymore...probably because it couldn't prove what it so desperately wanted to: The U.S. government is an evil empire-building monolith that wants to control the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_Command).

Ah well, back to the drawing board.

But this is about Manning, not a media site. Manning broke the law, however much he was motivated by his moral convictions. Thus I don't think he got off easy, he is looking at decades in prison. He was rightly found guilty of the laws he broke. Obamabucks going to Al Queda in Syria, telling the Taliban in A-stan our timetable or the refusal to issue the go order for relief forces in Libya have done more to directly aid our enemies than exposing war crimes.

TopHatter
30 Jul 13,, 22:55
Thus I don't think he got off easy, he is looking at decades in prison. He was rightly found guilty of the laws he broke.

I mean he could've wound up with his back against the wall. I would not shed a single tear if that had happened.

zraver
30 Jul 13,, 23:30
I mean he could've wound up with his back against the wall. I would not shed a single tear if that had happened.

Besides aiding the enemy was he charged with any other capitol offenses? The espionage charges have specific conditions that have to be met in order to make them a capitol case. Conditions I don't think the government was able to meet.

Also, I'm not sure a single judge can impose a death penalty. I think by choosing trial by judge instead of courts martial tribunal he took death off the table.

TopHatter
30 Jul 13,, 23:55
Besides aiding the enemy was he charged with any other capitol offenses? The espionage charges have specific conditions that have to be met in order to make them a capitol case. Conditions I don't think the government was able to meet.To elaborate: If Manning had been found guilty of Article 104, Aiding The Enemy, he could have been executed. He was acquitted of this, and so IMO got off lucky. Instead he'll simply do some, or a lot of, time.

Parihaka
31 Jul 13,, 01:01
So, presidential pardon at the end of Obama's term anyone?

TopHatter
31 Jul 13,, 01:05
So, presidential pardon at the end of Obama's term anyone?
Somehow I doubt that will occur.

zraver
31 Jul 13,, 01:11
To elaborate: If Manning had been found guilty of Article 104, Aiding The Enemy, he could have been executed. He was acquitted of this, and so IMO got off lucky. Instead he'll simply do some, or a lot of, time.

I'm glad he was acquitted of that charge, a society that executes those who air its dirty laundry and that declares the media an enemy is a scary thought. As it is he is facing up to a max of 136 years if run end to end.

Now come the appeals, denial of a speedy trial, cruel and unusual punishment, law is over broad.....

Pari, with the way Obama/Holder have gone after leakers it s ore likely for POTUS to arrange for manning to have an accident.

TopHatter
31 Jul 13,, 02:55
Pari, with the way Obama/Holder have gone after leakers it s ore likely for POTUS to arrange for manning to have an accident.

Now you're veering into conspiracy theory territory. ;)

Triple C
31 Jul 13,, 03:07
I watched a Guardian documentary on Manning and WikiLeaks two years ago. Manning's fate seemed to be the subject of an internal controversy within WikiLeaks. Assange's colleagues were aghast that he was intent on publishing the entire cache of information without censoring sensitive data that could put lives at risk, or his failure to make any attempt to protect the identity of their source, both of which are non-negotiable standards for conventional media. Assange's actions, viewed as feckless by his critics, had crippled the organization as much as outside actions.



"Within WikiLeaks, there has been public disagreement between founder and spokesperson Julian Assange and Daniel Domscheit-Berg, the website's former German representative who was suspended by Assange. Domscheit-Berg announced on 28 September 2010 that he was leaving the organisation due to internal conflicts over management of the website.[95][263][264] ... Herbert Snorrason, a 25-year-old Icelandic university student, resigned after he challenged Assange on his decision to suspend Domscheit-Berg and was bluntly rebuked.[267] Iceland MP Birgitta Jónsdóttir also left WikiLeaks, citing lack of transparency, lack of structure, and poor communication flow in the organisation.[273] According to the periodical The Independent (London), at least a dozen key supporters of WikiLeaks left the website during 2010.[274]"



I don't feel Manning was guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy. WikiLeaks isn't officially an enemy of the state. he violated violated more than his fair bit of the military code of conduct, and he's going to continue paying for the foolish mistakes he's made.

zraver
31 Jul 13,, 03:56
Now you're veering into conspiracy theory territory. ;)

Not really, we know for a fact that Obama has with malice aforethought killed American citizens....

TopHatter
31 Jul 13,, 04:06
Not really, we know for a fact that Obama has with malice aforethought killed American citizens....
Hanlon's Razor

zraver
31 Jul 13,, 04:38
Hanlon's Razor

I said it was more likely that Obama would arrange annings demise than grant him a pardon, not that Obama would arrange his demise. Do you disagree?

Will b e interesting to see how the appeals process plays out after the sentencing.

The government has already acknowledged that he was subjected to unlawful conditions at Quantico and applied a judicial remedy that may well be found to be insufficient given the nature of the abuses.

TopHatter
31 Jul 13,, 05:23
I said it was more likely that Obama would arrange annings demise than grant him a pardon, not that Obama would arrange his demise. Do you disagree?
Ah I see now. No, I definitely don't disagree.

zraver
31 Jul 13,, 05:40
Ah I see now. No, I definitely don't disagree.

Ya my famously borked typing skills...

Double Edge
31 Jul 13,, 12:46
The U.S. Army soldier charged with providing troves of government documents to the whistleblowing website Wikileaks was found not guilty Tuesday of aiding the enemy, the top charge in his 21-count indictment, which could have carried a life sentence.

Prosecutors had to prove Army Pfc. Bradley Manning had "a general evil intent" and knew the classified material would be seen by the terrorist group Al Qaeda. Legal experts said an aiding-the- enemy conviction could set a precedent because Manning did not directly give the classified material to Al Qaeda.

Bradley Manning not guilty of aiding the enemy in WikiLeaks case, convicted of lesser charges | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/30/bradley-manning-not-guilty-aiding-enemy-in-wikileaks-case-convicted-lesser/)

ZR- verdict seems to have followed a traditional course rather than breaking any new legal ground. Manning will probably be facing 20+ years.
Excellent verdict, his detractors never could make the case no matter how many times they asserted it.

tankie
31 Jul 13,, 13:37
Where will the slimeball serve his time , military slammer or civvy ?

tankie
31 Jul 13,, 16:45
He brought shame to this

A Soldier

There is discipline in a soldier
you can see it when he walks,
There is honor in a soldier
you hear it when he talks.
There is courage in a soldier
you can see it in his eyes,
There is loyalty in a soldier
that he will not compromise.
There is something in a soldier
that makes him stand apart,
There is strength in a soldier
that beats from his heart.
A soldier isn't a title any man
can be hired to do,
A soldier is the soul of that man
buried deep inside of you.
A soldier's job isn't finished after
an 8 hour day or a 40 hour week,
A soldier is always a soldier
even while he sleeps.
A soldier serves his country first
and his life is left behind,
A soldier has to sacrifice what
comes first in a civilian's mind.
If you are civilian -
I am saying this to you.....
next time you see a soldier
remember what they do.
A soldier is the reason our land
is 'Home of the free',
A soldier is the one that is brave
protecting you and me.
If you are a soldier -
I am saying this to you.....
Thank god for every soldier
Thank god for what you do.

TopHatter
31 Jul 13,, 17:47
Where will the slimeball serve his time , military slammer or civvy ?

More than likely it'll be the United States Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth

tankie
31 Jul 13,, 18:01
More than likely it'll be the United States Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth

Should be nice for him then ,,,not.

zraver
01 Aug 13,, 01:30
More than likely it'll be the United States Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth


Probably.

TopHatter
01 Aug 13,, 04:58
A bang-on analysis from Austin Bay at Strategypage


by Austin Bay
July 31, 2013
Following his conviction this week on at least five counts of espionage and several lesser charges, including fraud and theft, U.S. Army Pfc. Bradley Manning will now do hard time in prison.

In certain circumstances, spies deserve capital punishment. Several decades in jail strikes me being as Manning's criminal due, however.

Treason rates the death sentence, but Manning didn't commit treason. In fact, he beat that rap.

Manning admitted he gave Julian Assange's Wikileaks organization at least 700,000 pages of classified U.S. documents, as well as numerous classified videos. The massive document release included classified State Department cables and military information related to operations in combat zones. So prosecutors charged Manning with "aiding the enemy," an act of treason. The prosecution argued that Manning knew the information he released would aid al-Qaida.

Proving treason involves proving "specific intent." Prosecutors had to prove Manning specifically intended to aid specific enemies. They failed to make that case.

Manning's theft and espionage, in fact, were rather unspecific. He stole information by the megabyte, with scant selectivity and little reflection. He looked for secrets addressing topics that assured sensational media coverage.

Theft, however is still theft; violating military oaths and ironclad laws protecting classified information are military crimes.

Leaking unspecific classified information, especially trainloads of it, can damage U.S. defenses.

I think it already has. Manning's filched documents provide everyone -- friend, foe or bystander -- with a detailed look at American information gathering, information assessment and decision-making in the sensitive realms of foreign policy and defense.

Liberals forever extoll "soft diplomacy," the goodnik mission of diplomats in contrast to the "hard diplomacy" soldiers wield. Diplomacy requires able, careful diplomats. Yet Manning's leaked State Department cables provide our adversaries with a highly granular, candid and often personal portrait of a generation of U.S. diplomats. The cables reveal how specific diplomats operate, what they seek to accomplish and with whom they talk.

Though Manning's leaks did not place American diplomats in immediate mortal danger (a treasonous act), the leaks damaged their ability to conduct diplomacy, both near and long term. The private first class clearly does not understand that diplomacy is America's first line of defense.

Manning claims he became "disillusioned" with a foreign policy focused on "killing and capturing people" -- people, he said, not terrorists. So he spied and leaked information that would damage the agencies and agents conducting American foreign policy.

Manning's passionate defenders argue this damage serves the greater good, but they bear no personal responsibility for protecting American lives and vital interests even if they benefit from that protection.

Excusing Manning's crimes demonstrates a narrow, to the point of benighted, understanding of foreign policy in a dangerous, complicated world. "Burning" U.S. diplomats doesn't simply damage U.S. foreign policy, it hinders constructive, stop-the-killing diplomacy globally.

Several State Department cables were classified in deference to the sensitivities of foreign diplomats. One quotes a senior Chinese official bluntly describing North Korea's regime as crackpot. Is an honest comment, very likely an incremental step toward diplomatically reducing the threat of nuclear war in East Asia, worth keeping secret? Manning and Assange exposed it, but their vision of greater good is rather criminally self-serving.

Eventually an adversary will use insights gained from analyzing Manning's stolen documents to conduct operations that threaten American lives and livelihoods. Delayed treason, however, isn't a crime.

Manning, demoted to the rank of convict, has earned his next military tour. Before his trial, the military kept Manning in its Joint Regional Correctional Facility. The JRCF incarcerates pretrial defendants and prisoners with short sentences (five years or less). It's located at Ft. Leavenworth, Kan. -- but don't confuse it with its famous Leavenworth neighbor, the U.S. Disciplinary Barracks. The "DB" is what Hollywood means by "Leavenworth." News media report Manning will do his stretch in a DB cell.

The U.S. Army Command and General Staff School is also located at Ft. Leavenworth. The staff school runs what joking soldiers attending it refer to as "the short course." The Disciplinary Barracks? It runs Leavenworth's "long course." Would-be spies, take note. The long course isn't a death sentence, but it is certainly no joke.

Bigfella
01 Aug 13,, 16:49
So, presidential pardon at the end of Obama's term anyone?

Nope. If anything, Obama has been even harsher on whistle blowers than his predecessors. Manning is going nowhere....possibly for the rest of his life.

Bigfella
01 Aug 13,, 16:52
I said it was more likely that Obama would arrange annings demise than grant him a pardon, not that Obama would arrange his demise. Do you disagree?

Hows about 'none of the above'? Ordering a drone strike on some guy in Yemen isn't really comparable to arranging a hit on a guy in jail. Obama isn't going to free him & isn't going to kill him. Just let him rot.

Parihaka
01 Aug 13,, 20:50
Nope. If anything, Obama has been even harsher on whistle blowers than his predecessors.

I know, and has outraged his supporters in the process. He's approaching his legacy years, when he tries to prove he is that guy that people voted for in '08. but I don't seriously expect him to....

Double Edge
02 Aug 13,, 18:12
Leaking unspecific classified information, especially trainloads of it, can damage U.S. defenses.

I think it already has. Manning's filched documents provide everyone -- friend, foe or bystander -- with a detailed look at American information gathering, information assessment and decision-making in the sensitive realms of foreign policy and defense.
This keeps on getting asserted and i've yet to hear one concrete example where it actually did 'damage US defenses'. No successful case was made at this trial was it. In fact they failed to do precisely that. Nothing with the designation 'eyes only' was leaked.


Liberals forever extoll "soft diplomacy," the goodnik mission of diplomats in contrast to the "hard diplomacy" soldiers wield. Diplomacy requires able, careful diplomats. Yet Manning's leaked State Department cables provide our adversaries with a highly granular, candid and often personal portrait of a generation of U.S. diplomats. The cables reveal how specific diplomats operate, what they seek to accomplish and with whom they talk.

Though Manning's leaks did not place American diplomats in immediate mortal danger (a treasonous act), the leaks damaged their ability to conduct diplomacy, both near and long term. The private first class clearly does not understand that diplomacy is America's first line of defense.
What is the fallout to the US here ? a lack of security over the management of these documents. That is the primary mistake and remains the case since day 1. Whatever misgivings people had with american diplomats is long gone as core issues & mutual interests remain unchanged.

Those of us from around the world, looked at these documents to find out more about how our own politicians operate. There were no smoking guns to be found. The politicians of these countries i think would be more affected. Helped us understand some more how things work in our own countries. Would not be surprised if any revelations emboldened people to take a stance against their own govts.

We don't have witness protection programs here.