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bonehead
14 Jul 13,, 04:26
People are already calling for a change in Florida's stand your ground law. Riots are expected. I hope cooler heads prevail.

So is this justice or a travesty?

Parihaka
14 Jul 13,, 04:30
Thank fuck for that. It was nothing more than a media circus based on the fact the shooter was white and the deceased was black. The prosecution (the new one brought in specifically to play the race card) was so misleading in its numerous public statements prior to trial I am amazed it was even allowed to go to trial given the effective perjuries and trials-by-media they perpetrated. Frankly the prosecutor should be standing trial for attempting to pervert the course of justice.

zraver
14 Jul 13,, 04:41
Shooter wasn't white, he is a round faced, brown skinned hispanic. The whole process was a farce.

TopHatter
14 Jul 13,, 04:43
Thank fuck for that. It was nothing more than a media circus based on the fact the shooter was white and the deceased was black.

Exactly. Had Zimmerman been black, this would've been yet another statistic and nothing more.

The question is, was Zimmerman guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt of 2nd Degree Murder or, failing that, of Manslaughter, both as defined under Florida law. And those 6 jurors said No, he was not. It was an effed up situation from the get-go and both parties were responsibly for what happened.

dan m
14 Jul 13,, 04:46
All media stirred race issues aside , Zimmerman didn't end up being a very good neighborhood watchman.

Parihaka
14 Jul 13,, 04:51
Crackers:rolleyes:

Parihaka
14 Jul 13,, 05:06
I'll just add of course that in nuzeelundish crackers means you're barmy, which is not to be confused with balmy. Which means that according to Trayvon Martins girlfriend, Trayvon said he was being followed by a loony with a perturbing bottom.

TopHatter
14 Jul 13,, 05:20
All media stirred race issues aside , Zimmerman didn't end up being a very good neighborhood watchman.

Nope he sure didn't. First and foremost, he neglected to remember that a Watchman uses his eyes more than anything else.

A hyper-zealous watchman can do more harm than good.

zraver
14 Jul 13,, 05:35
I dunno, based on the suppressed exculpatory evidence TM was a thug with a history of violence and burglary.... exactly the the type of person McGruff recruited people people to watch out for and who when armed with a gun is why Florida passed stand your ground laws.

Blademaster
14 Jul 13,, 06:49
I dunno, based on the suppressed exculpatory evidence TM was a thug with a history of violence and burglary.... exactly the the type of person McGruff recruited people people to watch out for and who when armed with a gun is why Florida passed stand your ground laws.

And on that particular night, was TM engaging in the thuggery behavior? What you speak of is inneundo and casting blame on the victim. A despicable way of doing things.

George Zimmerman was guilty of manslaughter in my eyes. He created the volatile situation that led to an innocent person's death. No if or buts about it. He needs to be held accountable for TM's death. I hope he has a huge monetary judgment hanging over his head the same way that OJ had his judgment hanging over his head

Let me put this another way. If the victim was white and the defendant was black, he would have be convinced of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.

Wooglin
14 Jul 13,, 07:38
And on that particular night, was TM engaging in the thuggery behavior? What you speak of is inneundo and casting blame on the victim. A despicable way of doing things.

George Zimmerman was guilty of manslaughter in my eyes. He created the volatile situation that led to an innocent person's death. No if or buts about it. He needs to be held accountable for TM's death. I hope he has a huge monetary judgment hanging over his head the same way that OJ had his judgment hanging over his head

Let me put this another way. If the victim was white and the defendant was black, he would have be convinced of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.

Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy: Defendant Anthony Julien, Defendant Peter Julien and victim Brandon Martinez, Jonathan Rodriguez | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_75)

Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy: Defendant Adeirean Carey and victim Marcos Santiago | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_26)

Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy: Defendant Demarro Battle and victim Omar Bonilla | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_27)

Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy: Defendant Hygens Labidou and victim Edward Borowsky, Steven V. Lonzisero | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_23)

Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy: Defendant Cleveland Murdock and victim Patrick Lavoie | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/cases/case_89)

Minskaya
14 Jul 13,, 08:56
In the Zimmerman trial, the defense was not predicated on Florida's Stand Your Ground statute.

Although the trial jury found Zimmerman not guilty on the criminal charges, I fully expect a civil suit to be filed much like the civil suit filed against O. J. Simpson by the Brown and Goldman families. As we all know, the civil suit jury found Simpson liable for wrongful death and a civil judgement was imposed.

tankie
14 Jul 13,, 14:16
From that which I have just watched on BBC news , its a travesty .Poor kid was running into a pvt housing estate screaming for help , then the shot was heard , self defence ?? FFS Zimmerman should fry .

TopHatter
14 Jul 13,, 14:48
Poor kid was running into a pvt housing estate screaming for help , then the shot was heard , self defence ?? FFS Zimmerman should fry .

That's not at all what happened. :confused:

Monash
14 Jul 13,, 14:53
In the Zimmerman trial, the defense was not predicated on Florida's Stand Your Ground statute.

Although the trial jury found Zimmerman not guilty on the criminal charges, I fully expect a civil suit to be filed much like the civil suit filed against O. J. Simpson by the Brown and Goldman families. As we all know, the civil suit jury found Simpson liable for wrongful death and a civil judgement was imposed.

And after legal expenses Zimmerman will have exactly how much in assets?

tankie
14 Jul 13,, 15:11
That's not at all what happened. :confused:

Just seen it on the news T/H , heard him scream for help then the shot , the housing complex has a metal fence around it , ????? so what have you heard what happened ???


George Zimmerman has been acquitted of all charges over the fatal shooting of black teenager Trayvon Martin in Florida.
Mr Zimmerman was freed after the jury deliberated for more than 15 hours over two days in the second-degree murder trial.
The jurors notified the judge on Saturday night, shortly before 10pm local time, that they had reached a decision.
Minutes later the verdict was announced. Mr Zimmerman stood impassively as the verdict was read out.
The parents of the teenager were not in court for the verdict.
But outside the court supporters of Trayvon reacted with disappointment and anger.
Some chanted and held up a large banner saying "End racial oppression", while others yelled "No" in disbelief at the acquittal.
The six-member, all-woman jury began deliberating at 2.30pm on Friday after spending part of the day listening to the defence team's closing arguments and a rebuttal from the prosecution.
The jurors considered nearly three weeks of often wildly conflicting testimony over who was the aggressor on the rainy night the 17-year-old was shot while walking through the gated townhouse community where he was staying.
Mr Zimmerman's lawyers said the case was classic self-defence, claiming Trayvon knocked Mr Zimmerman down and was slamming the older man's head against the concrete footpath when Mr Zimmerman fired his pistol.
"We're ecstatic with the results," defence lawyer Mark O'Mara said after the verdict.
"George Zimmerman was never guilty of anything except protecting himself in self-defence."
Another member of his defence team, Don West, said: "I'm glad this jury kept this tragedy from becoming a travesty."
Prosecutors called Mr Zimmerman a liar and portrayed him as a wannabe police officer and vigilante who had grown frustrated by break-ins in his neighbourhood committed primarily by young black men.
They said Mr Zimmerman assumed the teen was up to no good and took the law into his own hands.
The case divided public opinion in the United States, with even President Barack Obama commenting on the shooting. Congressman Bobby Rush wore a "hoodie" in the House of Representatives in support of Trayvon.
Further criticism came from the 44-day delay before Mr Zimmerman was arrested.
After hearing the verdict, judge Debra Nelson told the defendant he was free to go and the GPS tracking tag unit would be removed.
"You have no further business with this court," she said.
Mr Zimmerman later hugged his family, and his wife Shellie smiled and cried.
Fearing further social unrest over the controversial shooting, the police chief in Sanford, where Trayvon Martin was shot and where the trial was held, urged peace.
State Attorney Angela Corey said she believed second-degree murder was the appropriate charge because Mr Zimmerman's mindset "fitted the bill of second-degree murder."
"We charged what we believed we could prove," Ms Corey said.
Second-degree murder is classed as a death that does not include specific intent to kill, and the trial centred on the state's controversial self-defence rule of "Stand Your Ground".

Monash
14 Jul 13,, 15:20
[/I]To the extent they negate the legal concept of "reasonable force" all the various Stand Your Ground Acts in place in various US jurisdictions are bad law. Previously a person was generally entitled to use force that was intended or likely to cause death or great serious harm to another individual if that person reasonably believed on reasonable grounds that such force is necessary to prevent threat to oneself, another or ones property.

Now every idiot with a gun can feel justified in starting or escalating a confrontation in the belief that he is is protected at law from any possibly fatal fatal outcomes his actions produce! I can just see two Zimmerman's having a dispute in a public over say a parking space, both equally convinced that they are the upright citizen and in the right, both equally sure that he doesn't have to back down because he is entitled to "stand his ground". You can imagine the consequences. In my more depressed moments the only positive aspect I can see is that maybe the US gene pool would improve slightly if they could but only eliminate each other - if only it weren't for the terrible collateral damage ... sigh.

Minskaya
14 Jul 13,, 15:40
From that which I have just watched on BBC news , its a travesty .Poor kid was running into a pvt housing estate screaming for help , then the shot was heard , self defence ?? FFS Zimmerman should fry .
Don't be a media lemming. Read the trial transcripts.

A jury pool of 500 citizens were questioned by the judge and by the prosecution team and defense lawyers. Both sides agreed on the final selection of six women (five white/one Hispanic). The defense viewed this jury as somewhat risky because they surmised that women might be more sympathetic to the loss of a child. The jury moved fairly quickly, only pausing once to ask the judge to clarify the standards necessary for a manslaughter conviction. All things considered, the unanimous verdict was delivered swiftly which points to a clear-cut failure of the state to present a coherent and convincing prosecution.

One last musing. Whether the Zimmerman jury erred or not is beyond my purview. But no one in the United States was unaware of the political/social ramifications of an acquittal. As a foreigner, I cede to the jury a measure of credit for arriving at the verdict they felt was correct despite intense external pressures to convict.

tankie
14 Jul 13,, 16:01
Don't be a media lemming. Read the trial transcripts.

A jury pool of 500 citizens were questioned by the judge and by the prosecution team and defense lawyers. Both sides agreed on the final selection of six women (five white/one Hispanic). The defense viewed this jury as somewhat risky because they surmised that women might be more sympathetic to the loss of a child. The jury moved fairly quickly, only pausing once to ask the judge to clarify the standards necessary for a manslaughter conviction. All things considered, the unanimous verdict was delivered swiftly which points to a clear-cut failure of the state to present a coherent and convincing prosecution.

One last musing. Whether the Zimmerman jury erred or not is beyond my purview. But no one in the United States was unaware of the political/social ramifications of an acquittal. As a foreigner, I cede to the jury a measure of credit for arriving at the verdict they felt was correct despite intense external pressures to convict.

Some one recorded it , i heard what i heard .

Shek
14 Jul 13,, 16:05
Some one recorded it , i heard what i heard .

The voice in the recording was in dispute by both the families and the expert witnesses. Wherever you heard what you heard failed to do an even minimally adequate job of portraying the "facts" of the case, as you didn't get facts.

zraver
14 Jul 13,, 16:14
And on that particular night, was TM engaging in the thuggery behavior? What you speak of is inneundo and casting blame on the victim. A despicable way of doing things.

George Zimmerman was guilty of manslaughter in my eyes. He created the volatile situation that led to an innocent person's death. No if or buts about it. He needs to be held accountable for TM's death. I hope he has a huge monetary judgment hanging over his head the same way that OJ had his judgment hanging over his head

Let me put this another way. If the victim was white and the defendant was black, he would have be convinced of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.

Zimmerman only left his car to get an address and was never more than 100' from his car. TM had already made it to his fathers house, came back out and hid in some bushes where he jumped Zimmerman. Burn marks on TM's hoodie and skin indicate the hoodie was hanging about 2"-4" away from his body which can only happen if he is leaning over someone. Zimmerman had injuries to the front and back of his head and grass and debris in the back of his clothes. TM also made racist to his friend comments before attacking Zimmerman.

TM's friend who reported the racist comments also stated that TM loved to fight, a fact born out by his criminal record.

zraver
14 Jul 13,, 16:17
[/I]To the extent they negate the legal concept of "reasonable force" all the various Stand Your Ground Acts in place in various US jurisdictions are bad law. Previously a person was generally entitled to use force that was intended or likely to cause death or great serious harm to another individual if that person reasonably believed on reasonable grounds that such force is necessary to prevent threat to oneself, another or ones property.

Now every idiot with a gun can feel justified in starting or escalating a confrontation in the belief that he is is protected at law from any possibly fatal fatal outcomes his actions produce! I can just see two Zimmerman's having a dispute in a public over say a parking space, both equally convinced that they are the upright citizen and in the right, both equally sure that he doesn't have to back down because he is entitled to "stand his ground". You can imagine the consequences. In my more depressed moments the only positive aspect I can see is that maybe the US gene pool would improve slightly if they could but only eliminate each other - if only it weren't for the terrible collateral damage ... sigh.

Except it hasn't happened.... The anti-gun crowd made similar projections about shall- issue laws.... Problem with these predictions is gun owners tend to be more law abiding and less prone to violence.

tankie
14 Jul 13,, 16:25
Note to oneself , dont listen to the BBC news .

TopHatter
14 Jul 13,, 16:52
Note to oneself , dont listen to the BBC news .

Don't feel bad. The media portrayals of the people and events have been badly skewed.

If it was reported that Martin "ran screaming into a private housing area screaming for help", then somebody seriously got their wires crossed.

I probably should've also noted that I live less than 2 hours away from Sanford (123 miles/197 km).

Blademaster
14 Jul 13,, 18:42
Zimmerman only left his car to get an address and was never more than 100' from his car. TM had already made it to his fathers house, came back out and hid in some bushes where he jumped Zimmerman. Burn marks on TM's hoodie and skin indicate the hoodie was hanging about 2"-4" away from his body which can only happen if he is leaning over someone. Zimmerman had injuries to the front and back of his head and grass and debris in the back of his clothes. TM also made racist to his friend comments before attacking Zimmerman.

TM's friend who reported the racist comments also stated that TM loved to fight, a fact born out by his criminal record.

What criminal record? TM was not engaged in criminal activity so you cannot bring his past into the picture at here. He had every right to be free from interference and fear of assault as he was returning to home in a peaceably and lawful manner. If you say Zimmerman was in fear of his death when he pulled his gun and fired it, well what about TM's right to be fearful of a guy who is not a cop but has a gun attached to his side and was following him? That is assault right there and creating fear for life. TM had every right to defend himself in that situation.

George Zimmerman created the situation where TM was in fear for his life or liberty. TM had every right to use self-defense or Stand your Ground.

the only problem? He died instead of Zimmerman and we will never hear his side of the story. So far you have only heard Zimmerman's side of the story, but not the guy who died. In that case, given the facts of the case, Zimmerman had no right to confront TM since he was told by the police not to chase him and that they would send the police and Zimmerman admitted that TM was doing nothing wrong, only wearing a hoodie in which in Zimmerman's eyes made TM suspicious which is not a valid basis for reasonable articulable suspicion.

If we were to accept Zimmerman's reasoning and logic, then I could very easily create a situation where I chase a guy who i thought had no right to be there and the guy turns around and attack me and I could claim self defense and kill him. That's not how self defense works. You cannot create a situation where it leads the other guy to fear for his life and lead to this chain of events that results in the other guy being dead.

He should have been convicted of criminally liable for the death of TM. I hope the feds can find a way to make the charge stick without the racism tone but the profiling tone can be brought in. And I also hope that Zimmerman gets a massive judgment against him like $100M.

Doktor
14 Jul 13,, 18:46
Why $100 mn?

Blademaster
14 Jul 13,, 18:52
Why $100 mn?

wrongful death, future pain & suffering, and putative damage.

Officer of Engineers
14 Jul 13,, 18:55
Hitesh,

Did the prosecution screwed up?

tankie
14 Jul 13,, 19:49
T/H im not feeling bad , i commented on something on the news which pointed to zimmerman shooting after chasing him ? if he never had a gun would he have tackled him , probably not , but in the link below are recordings , the one which i commented on is there .And the cops tell him not to follow him .

On March 16, 2012, police released audio of the 911 calls made by Twin Lakes residents who were witness to the altercation between Martin and Zimmerman occurring near their homes. In one chilling call, a voice can be heard screaming for help in the background. The wailing ends as the loud crack of a gun shot rings out. Those screams and the question of who was making them would become pivotal for both the prosecution and the defense, with the implication being that the person screaming was the one being attacked.

George Zimmerman Not Guilty: Jury Lets Trayvon Martin Killer Go (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/13/george-zimmerman-not-guilty_n_3588743.html?1373767350&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009)

zraver
14 Jul 13,, 20:05
What criminal record? TM was not engaged in criminal activity so you cannot bring his past into the picture at here.

Actually he was, its called assault.



He had every right to be free from interference and fear of assault as he was returning to home in a peaceably and lawful manner.

He had already returned home, gone back outside and confronted the neighborhood watch captain whose job it was to observe and report. Getting out of his car to get an address to relay to police was not a provocative act.


If you say Zimmerman was in fear of his death when he pulled his gun and fired it, well what about TM's right to be fearful of a guy who is not a cop but has a gun attached to his side and was following him? That is assault right there and creating fear for life. TM had every right to defend himself in that situation.

wrong, TM did not know that Zimmerman was armed since the gun was in the small of Zimmermans back.

[qute[George Zimmerman created the situation where TM was in fear for his life or liberty. TM had every right to use self-defense or Stand your Ground.[/quote]

TM attacked Zimmerman who not engaged in either threatening or unusual behavior. TM was the one who was cutting between houses (trespassing and perhaps practicing burglary skills/ casing targets), who engaged in pre-meditated assault upon another after making a racial a slur (assault, possibly racially motivated/hate crime). Hrmmm... all behavbior that fits the TM- who liked to fight, was a known burglar, who posted picks of him using drugs and in possession of an illegal a pistol


the only problem? He died instead of Zimmerman and we will never hear his side of the story. So far you have only heard Zimmerman's side of the story, but not the guy who died.

The right person died


In that case, given the facts of the case, Zimmerman had no right to confront TM since he was told by the police not to chase him and that they would send the police and Zimmerman admitted that TM was doing nothing wrong, only wearing a hoodie in which in Zimmerman's eyes made TM suspicious which is not a valid basis for reasonable articulable suspicion.

Zimmerman was not chasing, he got out of his car for an address, TM was doing more than merely wearing a hoody- he was lingering in hard to see places in the rain and cutting between houses. Behaviors that should elicit a response from the leader of the neighborhood watch.


If we were to accept Zimmerman's reasoning and logic, then I could very easily create a situation where I chase a guy who i thought had no right to be there and the guy turns around and attack me and I could claim self defense and kill him. That's not how self defense works. You cannot create a situation where it leads the other guy to fear for his life and lead to this chain of events that results in the other guy being dead.

The facts are what they are, TM was a thug who went looking for trouble and got shot.


He should have been convicted of criminally liable for the death of TM. I hope the feds can find a way to make the charge stick without the racism tone but the profiling tone can be brought in. And I also hope that Zimmerman gets a massive judgment against him like $100M.

The jury, presented with most of the facts (but not the ones most exculpatory to Zimmerman), mislead by a prosecution on a witch hunt who violated Zimmerman's rights and instructed by a biased judge who will be lucky if she isn't impeached for her behavior during the trial still found the case for murder or even manslaughter lacking and acquitted.

Parihaka
14 Jul 13,, 21:46
That's not at all what happened. :confused:

This is the BBC Tankie watched it on:whome:

Parihaka
14 Jul 13,, 21:57
Note to oneself , dont listen to the BBC news .

They are shockers at times Eric. I listen to them all the time, I just take their synopsis with a LARGE grain of salt.

tankie
14 Jul 13,, 22:02
I posted a link of the recordings and it was one of them the beeb used ?

Doktor
14 Jul 13,, 22:06
wrongful death, future pain & suffering, and putative damage.

1. How you got to that particular sum?
2. Do you really expect him to pay it? Even if convinced and ordered by the court?

I never got this with ridiculous sums asked as compensation from people who can't pay them.

Parihaka
14 Jul 13,, 22:06
and Zimmerman admitted that TM was doing nothing wrong, only wearing a hoodie in which in Zimmerman's eyes made TM suspicious which is not a valid basis for reasonable articulable suspicion.


Where in the court case or Zimmerman's statements did he say wearing a hoodie made Martin suspicious?

cyppok
14 Jul 13,, 22:06
And after legal expenses Zimmerman will have exactly how much in assets?

Every network that covered the case, online news agencies, and other venues will be sued by Zimmerman and his family and loose. That is a lot of money.

All that editing of video where he got his nose broken and back of the head bashed in, lying about the phone call and other aspects of the case. See the problem they have is that they bet by lying on the case ending how they wanted, now that it hasn't not only have they lost credibility they also loose any possibility of winning a libel suit.

My guess is there may not even be a civil suit and if there is one it will end before the libel suits.

Zimmerman will most likely file for bankruptcy and pay nothing if he looses the civil case. The problem is that he may win it because he was assaulted and there was no way for him to run or do anything other than to shoot the dude doing the assaulting.

Parihaka
14 Jul 13,, 22:11
I posted a link of the recordings and it was one of them the beeb used ?
Without context they are meaningless, or in the Beebs case deliberately misleading context.

Parihaka
14 Jul 13,, 22:13
Every network that covered the case, online news agencies, and other venues will be sued by Zimmerman and his family and loose. That is a lot of money.

All that editing of video where he got his nose broken and back of the head bashed in, lying about the phone call and other aspects of the case. See the problem they have is that they bet by lying on the case ending how they wanted, now that it hasn't not only have they lost credibility they also loose any possibility of winning a libel suit.

My guess is there may not even be a civil suit and if there is one it will end before the libel suits.
From what I read at the time there will be quite a few media outlets that are liable

tankie
14 Jul 13,, 22:19
Without context they are meaningless, or in the Beebs case deliberately misleading context.

Right then , i refuse to wear a blindfold , fire n be damned :slap:

Doktor
14 Jul 13,, 22:47
Interesting...

Emotion vs. reason at the Zimmerman trial (http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/07/12/Emotion-vs-reason-at-the-Zimmerman-trial)

DonBelt
14 Jul 13,, 23:08
I'll just add of course that in nuzeelundish crackers means you're barmy, which is not to be confused with balmy. Which means that according to Trayvon Martins girlfriend, Trayvon said he was being followed by a loony with a perturbing bottom.

Perturbing or protuding? I was camping with the kids and missed some of the trial.

zraver
14 Jul 13,, 23:12
From what I read at the time there will be quite a few media outlets that are liable

Most wont be because as the press they acted in good faith and so are immune. NBC on the other hand is in deep pue-doo.

TopHatter
14 Jul 13,, 23:52
Interesting...

Emotion vs. reason at the Zimmerman trial (http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/07/12/Emotion-vs-reason-at-the-Zimmerman-trial)


Everything seems to be about the churning waters of emotion smashing through the crumbling dike of reason these days. Intentions matter, not results. Coldly rational arguments are dismissed as heartless. Soaring rhetoric is more important that sober reflection upon past history.

And above all, the rule of law has been discarded in favor of passionate action. Whatever a majority, or even a vocal minority, is convinced is the "right thing to do" must be done at once, never mind whether it's done right. The lack of necessary legal authority is a trifling distraction. Why let the intricate legal musings of dead white males stand against the "fierce urgency of now?" Why should the righteous many fret about the rights of the few who dissent? We have to Do Something, about everything, and universal participation is mandatory.

Liberalism in a nutshell

dave lukins
15 Jul 13,, 00:33
They are shockers at times Eric. I listen to them all the time, I just take their synopsis with a LARGE grain of salt.

Before or after the tequila :biggrin:

Doktor
15 Jul 13,, 00:36
Before or after the tequila :biggrin:

What kind of question is this? Salt, Tequila, Lime ;)

Doktor
15 Jul 13,, 01:22
Justice Department To Review George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin Case (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/14/justice-department-george-zimmerman_n_3595835.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009 )

This was too soon. More distraction from real problems or a real concern?

Parihaka
15 Jul 13,, 01:42
Witch hunt much?

Albany Rifles
15 Jul 13,, 03:37
I am still waiting to hear the value of said law.

Because I am not sold on it.

Blademaster
15 Jul 13,, 13:17
Hitesh,

Did the prosecution screwed up?

Looking back, I would say that they should have introduced the charge of assault which can be a felony. Because if they could convince the jury that George zimmerman assaulted travis Martin, then the self defence argument is mootless and the defense would not be able to present an alternate theory to the 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.

But that is strategy. The big problem was that there were no evidence that seems to directly contradict George Zimmerman's assertions of self defense. No witnesses. The only thing that could contradict GZ's self defense claims was that his head was not bleeding that much or showing much damage because if his head was being slammed into the pavement, there would be more blood and GZ would be much more dazed. But again, the defense all had to was introduce reasonable doubt and that's what happened here.

That is why jury selection is so important. I think the prosecution lost out on the jury selection.

Blademaster
15 Jul 13,, 13:18
Where in the court case or Zimmerman's statements did he say wearing a hoodie made Martin suspicious?

the calls he made to the police.

tankie
15 Jul 13,, 13:22
the calls he made to the police.

To which i posted the links with the calls .

tankie
15 Jul 13,, 13:24
That is why jury selection is so important. I think the prosecution lost out on the jury selection.

So do you think the verdict is wrong then B/M ?

Blademaster
15 Jul 13,, 13:26
Actually he was, its called assault.




He had already returned home, gone back outside and confronted the neighborhood watch captain whose job it was to observe and report. Getting out of his car to get an address to relay to police was not a provocative act.



wrong, TM did not know that Zimmerman was armed since the gun was in the small of Zimmermans back.

[qute[George Zimmerman created the situation where TM was in fear for his life or liberty. TM had every right to use self-defense or Stand your Ground.

TM attacked Zimmerman who not engaged in either threatening or unusual behavior. TM was the one who was cutting between houses (trespassing and perhaps practicing burglary skills/ casing targets), who engaged in pre-meditated assault upon another after making a racial a slur (assault, possibly racially motivated/hate crime). Hrmmm... all behavbior that fits the TM- who liked to fight, was a known burglar, who posted picks of him using drugs and in possession of an illegal a pistol



The right person died



Zimmerman was not chasing, he got out of his car for an address, TM was doing more than merely wearing a hoody- he was lingering in hard to see places in the rain and cutting between houses. Behaviors that should elicit a response from the leader of the neighborhood watch.



The facts are what they are, TM was a thug who went looking for trouble and got shot.



The jury, presented with most of the facts (but not the ones most exculpatory to Zimmerman), mislead by a prosecution on a witch hunt who violated Zimmerman's rights and instructed by a biased judge who will be lucky if she isn't impeached for her behavior during the trial still found the case for murder or even manslaughter lacking and acquitted.[/QUOTE]

What real evidence do you have to prove that TM was a thug and liked to fight all the time. What you are doing is the same sort of despicable behavior that people would engaged to justify that a girl was not "raped" because she was a whore. You are bringing up the past acts and extrapolating into this image where you can justify the actions of GZ

I totally find your arguments to be fallacious and despicable and unworthy of further debate since you have already made your mind that TM was a thug and therefore any actions made by GZ was excusable. Well no, GZ was a neighborhood watchman but not a cop. He had no right or authority to detain or question TM against his will. TM was taking a shortcut because he didn't want to take the long way around and it was raining that day. He was talking to a friend of his on the phone while walking back to his father's home. Hardly the actions of a man who was looking for trouble. You are conjecting on TM;s part. What about GZ? He wanted to be a cop but he was too stupid to be a cop. He was overzealous and overly aggressive. He was a wannabe mall cop who thought the law was on his side when he was strutting around like he was the big man on campus with a gun in his back. He thought he could take down a "bad guy" himself and make himself the hero. He was a vigilante.

Blademaster
15 Jul 13,, 13:29
So do you think the verdict is wrong then B/M ?

Yes, it should have been manslaughter. I was not expecting a 2nd degree murder conviction because the state did not have enough proof to override the reasonable doubt standard but introduced the charge as a way of forcing the defense to spend all their time defending against 2nd degree murder and little against manslaughter and also to answer the public's criticism that the state was not doing enough.

Blademaster
15 Jul 13,, 13:44
One more thing. there will be a civil lawsuit if for no other reason, to force GZ to testify. In a civil case, you can be compelled to testify against yourself. There will be a long and lengthy depo for him. There will be two trials. One initiated by the father and one initiated by the mother. GZ will attempt to make it one trial and avoid going through two depos.

Once he testifies, it will be very easy to take him apart and his self defense arguments.

Also it is not over for GZ yet. The Feds still has the opportunity to charge him with a civil rights violation. But the problem I see with it is the parcity of evidence that the Feds have. Feds rarely try a case they know it has a likelyhood of losing. So unless they can get more evidence, this will be a very hard call for the US attorney to make and most likely the call will come from the top, mostly for political reasons.

zraver
15 Jul 13,, 14:34
What real evidence do you have to prove that TM was a thug and liked to fight all the time.

statements of his friends, his own text messages and his juvenile criminal record.




The jury given a lopsided cases still found GZ not guilty of either murder 2 or manslaughter and all other lesser included.

[quote]I totally find your arguments to be fallacious and despicable and unworthy of further debate since you have already made your mind that TM was a thug and therefore any actions made by GZ was excusable. Well no, GZ was a neighborhood watchman but not a cop. He had no right or authority to detain or question TM against his will. TM was taking a shortcut because he didn't want to take the long way around and it was raining that day. He was talking to a friend of his on the phone while walking back to his father's home. Hardly the actions of a man who was looking for trouble. You are conjecting on TM;s part. What about GZ? He wanted to be a cop but he was too stupid to be a cop. He was overzealous and overly aggressive. He was a wannabe mall cop who thought the law was on his side when he was strutting around like he was the big man on campus with a gun in his back. He thought he could take down a "bad guy" himself and make himself the hero. He was a vigilante.

TM made it to his fathers house, took out his gold caps and went back looking for GZ... something RJ testified to, in her understanding of her friend he was looking for a fight. His own text messages show him being in an aggressive fight prone mood.

Per the jury, Zimmerman's acts, while stupid, did not reach the level of criminal act.

Doktor
15 Jul 13,, 14:42
What makes me go puke in this case is the media.

They had their court session and the guilty verdict, only the sentence was not out (or I missed it).

HufPo changed FB profile picture with one of TM when he was like 11 y/o. There goes unbiased journalism.

tankie
15 Jul 13,, 17:21
lots of pissed off peeps huh .:whome:

Petitions Demanding Civil Rights Case Against George Zimmerman Draw 250,000 Signatures (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/15/petitions-george-zimmerman_n_3598312.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009 )

Triple C
15 Jul 13,, 19:05
Teenagers getting into fights and smoking pot are no evidence of being a hardened criminal. Nor is it relevant to the legal case presented. Interestingly enough, Florida law states that the first attacker [edit: or instigator] can reclaim the right to use deadly force under limited circumstances, and that seemed to be the case that they argued at court.

Triple C
15 Jul 13,, 19:06
Per the jury, Zimmerman's acts, while stupid, did not reach the level of criminal act.

That I can agree with. Lots of stupid for the parties involved.

Albany Rifles
15 Jul 13,, 19:52
Triple C,

Hence my post #48 from last night.

gunnut
15 Jul 13,, 20:17
Ever noticed that Trayvon Martin seemed to be the only teenager in the entire US who did not have a single photograph after age 12 in this digital age?

gunnut
15 Jul 13,, 20:19
Teenagers getting into fights and smoking pot are no evidence of being a hardened criminal. Nor is it relevant to the legal case presented. Interestingly enough, Florida law states that the first attacker [edit: or instigator] can reclaim the right to use deadly force under limited circumstances, and that seemed to be the case that they argued at court.

That oughtta teach people not to pick fights for no good reason. Martin brought fists to a gun fight and lost.

There's a reason why we like liberal carry laws. And there's a reason why cities with stringent gun laws usually have very high crime rate.

Triple C
15 Jul 13,, 20:27
I would certainly call it stupid to fist fight somebody who's following you. I would also call it stupid to follow somebody whom you are not sure is committing a crime, whom you know for certain isn't putting anyone's life in imminent risk, when you are packing heat. I doubt if Martin won the fight and somehow disarmed Zimmerman, he would be convicted as a felon. Or if Martin was armed, and shot the guy who he claims is following him and talking in a most threatening manner, and who is furthermore dead and unable to contest in court.

Parihaka
15 Jul 13,, 20:34
the calls he made to the police.

He mentioned the hoodie (http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html)when the police specifically asked what he was wearing, not as an indicator of suspicion. Try again.

gunnut
15 Jul 13,, 20:51
I would certainly call it stupid to fist fight somebody who's following you. I would also call it stupid to follow somebody whom you are not sure is committing a crime, whom you know for certain isn't putting anyone's life in imminent risk,

How would you know, if you didn't follow him to find out?


I doubt if Martin won the fight and somehow disarmed Zimmerman, he would be convicted as a felon. Or if Martin was armed, and shot the guy who he claims is following him and talking in a most threatening manner, and who is furthermore dead and unable to contest in court.

If Zimmerman weren't armed, was jumped by Martin, and Martin beat him into a pulp, then what? It would have been treated as a normal fight between 2 people, with one in the hospital, and the other booked on assault charge. These fights happen everyday. No one cares. We only care now because the media blew this out of proportion. How many black people die every weekend in Chicago? No one cares. Why? It's a city controlled by liberals and the perpetrators are usually black.

Triple C
15 Jul 13,, 21:01
Are you saying it's not stupid of Zimmerman to not de-escalate and avoid a confrontation?

And you are absolutely wrong to accuse liberal Chicagoans to "not care" when their own dies on the street. I invite you to go the churches or any coffee shop in South Side frequented by the people who live there. Liberals and conservatives don't agree on policy, I know. There's no need for unfounded accusations against the decency of people whom you don't agree with.

I lived there two years. It's not a matter of whether you are armed or not. No one snitches on a gang banger because ain't nobody is going to take the risk of putting the lives of their loved ones at risk when criminals live next doors and knows your life in every intimate detail.

gunnut
15 Jul 13,, 21:35
Are you saying it's not stupid of Zimmerman to not de-escalate and avoid a confrontation?

Never said that. I challenge you to find where I said Zimmerman was right or smart to following Martin.


And you are absolutely wrong to accuse liberal Chicagoans to "not care" when their own dies on the street. I invite you to go the churches or any coffee shop in South Side frequented by the people who live there. Liberals and conservatives don't agree on policy, I know. There's no need for unfounded accusations against the decency of people whom you don't agree with.

I didn't say the people didn't care. I said the liberal media didn't care. The media was the one that blew the Zimmerman case out of proportion. Had it spent half the energy to report the problems in Chicago, we just might see some changes.



I lived there two years. It's not a matter of whether you are armed or not. No one snitches on a gang banger because ain't nobody is going to take the risk of putting the lives of their loved ones at risk when criminals live next doors and knows your life in every intimate detail.

Well, then. I guess we just surrender or get out. Do what people in Detroit did. Abandon the city. Sounds like a perfectly good plan.

tankie
15 Jul 13,, 23:23
Whoopi Goldberg Grills George Zimmerman Lawyers On 'The View' (VIDEO) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/15/whoopi-goldberg-george-zimmerman-the-view_n_3599850.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009)

Doktor
16 Jul 13,, 00:55
Another gig our media learned from US ones - interrupt whenever you don't like the response.

Aryajet
16 Jul 13,, 02:23
Looking back, I would say that they should have introduced the charge of assault which can be a felony. Because if they could convince the jury that George zimmerman assaulted travis Martin, then the self defence argument is mootless and the defense would not be able to present an alternate theory to the 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.

But that is strategy. The big problem was that there were no evidence that seems to directly contradict George Zimmerman's assertions of self defense. No witnesses. The only thing that could contradict GZ's self defense claims was that his head was not bleeding that much or showing much damage because if his head was being slammed into the pavement, there would be more blood and GZ would be much more dazed. But again, the defense all had to was introduce reasonable doubt and that's what happened here.

That is why jury selection is so important. I think the prosecution lost out on the jury selection.

B.M,
This picture was published by ABC which shows pretty nasty bashing to his head and I also heard his nose was broken which I can't verify.

33367

Doktor
16 Jul 13,, 02:26
Guess you talk about this one:

33368

tbm3fan
16 Jul 13,, 02:50
B.M,
This picture was published by ABC which shows pretty nasty bashing to his head and I also heard his nose was broken which I can't verify.

33367

Not to mention that two "prosecution" witnesses say they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him before a shot was fired. EMT on the scene said she treated Zimmerman for 5 minutes before turning him over to the police.

Frankly, Zimmerman looks to have been prosecuted so as to assuage and correct the past ill's of society. When 96% of blacks are killed by blacks no one plays the race card. When 84% or 85% of whites are killed by whites the race card isn't played. When the lines cross and black kills white the race card isn't played but when white kills black it is. Looks like a solid trend to me.

So now a lot of people are tied up in knots because he was found not guilty by a jury doing their job in weighing what facts there were, or weren't, while ignoring the hype. Good on them. Yet now they need to be ignored and Zimmerman needs to be found guilty somewhere so we can have our pound of flesh as payback. Meanwhile I also learn that creepy ass "cracker" isn't a racist term according to Martin's 19 year old friend. Man, am I ignorant.

As for Whoopie, I guess she has some issues because the attorney's were good.

zraver
16 Jul 13,, 03:16
Anyone who has had their nose broken with thier attacker still on top of them has a solid claim in fearing for their life. They are blind and cannot breath from the broken nose.

Parihaka
16 Jul 13,, 04:02
Something I haven't been able to glean from the reports, from what I understand the police instructed Zimmerman to no longer follow Martin. Is there any evidence to show he continued to follow him or did he simply wait where arranged for the police to arrive?

zraver
16 Jul 13,, 04:11
Something I haven't been able to glean from the reports, from what I understand the police instructed Zimmerman to no longer follow Martin. Is there any evidence to show he continued to follow him or did he simply wait where arranged for the police to arrive?

He lost sight of TM, but apparently continued to look for him, when TM found him and confronted him.

Triple C
16 Jul 13,, 08:31
I didn't say the people didn't care. I said the liberal media didn't care. The media was the one that blew the Zimmerman case out of proportion. Had it spent half the energy to report the problems in Chicago, we just might see some changes.


Are you saying FOX channel care about Chicago? The media reports what people want to see.


Well, then. I guess we just surrender or get out. Do what people in Detroit did. Abandon the city. Sounds like a perfectly good plan.

Right, because after the people with the means to leave of the city, no one cares what happens to the rest and declare the problem's solved.

Blademaster
16 Jul 13,, 08:55
For those who justified Zimmerman's use of deadly force on TM because innuedos about TM's past without TM being here to defend himself made it likely that TM was the instigator. Here is the other side of the version:

Zimmerman had a long history of violence, including a restraining order for domestic violence, felony charges of resisting arrest, and assaulting an officer (the charge was pled down to a misdemeanor and then closed; Zimmerman's dad was a magistrate at the time). He was bounced from a job as a bouncer for being too aggressive with patrons, the New York Daily News reported. And a family member accused him of a pattern of sexual molestation. See here: Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman: New details in George Zimmerman domestic violence petitions - Orlando Sentinel (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions)
George Zimmerman, Neighborhood Watch Captain Who Shot Trayvon Martin, Charged With Violence Before (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1335984.html)
George Zimmerman lost job as party security guard for being too aggressive, ex-co-worker says * - NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-lost-job-party-security-guard-aggressive-ex-co-worker-article-1.1053223)
Woman Says George Zimmerman Molested Her For More Than A Decade (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/16/george-zimmerman_n_1676729.html)

If I were to go by Zraver's fallicious arguments, GZ would be guilty of 1st degree murder in a case like this. that certainly says a lot about Zraver's logic. :rolleyes:

Minskaya
16 Jul 13,, 09:18
I had no idea we had so many competent trial attorney's here at the WAB ;)

Even one jurist with doubt could have dissented, which would have resulted in a hung jury and a retrial. That didn't happen.

After hearing all of the trial testimony and viewing all of the trial evidence, the jury unanimously voted to acquit Zimmerman of 2nd degree murder and manslaughter.

The unanimous verdict leaves only two realistic possibilities: a) The prosecution team was grossly incompetent or: b) Zimmerman is innocent of the allegations.

Bigfella
16 Jul 13,, 10:04
Liberalism in a nutshell

Dunno TH, there was an awful lot in that passage that could have been used to describe the American conservatives I interact with daily. 'Stand your ground' laws are one of the more perfect examples of emotion trumping anything vaguely resembling common sense.

Aryajet
16 Jul 13,, 15:08
I had no idea we had so many competent trial attorney's here at the WAB ;)

Even one jurist with doubt could have dissented, which would have resulted in a hung jury and a retrial. That didn't happen.

After hearing all of the trial testimony and viewing all of the trial evidence, the jury unanimously voted to acquit Zimmerman of 2nd degree murder and manslaughter.

The unanimous verdict leaves only two realistic possibilities: a) The prosecution team was grossly incompetent or: b) Zimmerman is innocent of the allegations.

Minskaya

Zimmerman was found not guilty of 2nd degree murder, that does not make him innocent. He had his share of contributing to this tragedy to happen and some how should have paid for it. Police instructed him not to follow the suspect, remain in his car until patrol car arrives and he proceeded other wise.

If prosecution had gone for Accessory to Murder (some thing in that category since I don't know the legal term for it) which is a felony, jury would definitely convict him of the crime and the court could go for maximum sentence. A young life is lost in this case and culprits should pay their share. Just my 2 cents.

TopHatter
16 Jul 13,, 15:24
Something I haven't been able to glean from the reports, from what I understand the police instructed Zimmerman to no longer follow Martin. Is there any evidence to show he continued to follow him or did he simply wait where arranged for the police to arrive?

It was a 911 operator, who strongly suggested to Zimmerman against following Martin "We don't need you to do that"

From the trial:

"...for legal reasons, 911 operators may not give such orders. “We’re directly liable if we give a direct order,” he said. “We always try to give general basic … not commands, just suggestions.”

Unfortunately the only source we have for what Zimmerman did prior to the physical altercation between the two is Zimmerman himself.


Dunno TH, there was an awful lot in that passage that could have been used to describe the American conservatives I interact with daily. 'Stand your ground' laws are one of the more perfect examples of emotion trumping anything vaguely resembling common sense.

I certainly won't defend conservatives on many many points, especially Stand Your Ground.

Personally I think that Duty To Retreat is far and away the best course of action, especially for a firearm holder.

zraver
16 Jul 13,, 15:29
Minskaya

Zimmerman was found not guilty of 2nd degree murder, that does not make him innocent. He had his share of contributing to this tragedy to happen and some how should have paid for it. Police instructed him not to follow the suspect, remain in his car until patrol car arrives and he proceeded other wise.


Stupidity is not against the law...

These are facts
1. the hoodie was hanging 2-4" away from TM body indicatign he was leaning forward when shot.
2. GZ had a broken nose (mouth and nose filled with blood, breathing problems because he was supine and his eyes were vision was impaired.
3. GZ had 6 lacerations to the back of his head from the concrete
4. There was grass and debris on the back of GZ's clothes.
5. Witness saw TM on top
6. Under ever assault/battery law in the county, beating someone when they are down, seriously injured and otherwise incapacitated is a VIOLENT FELONY.
7. Under Florida law, having been disabled and the attack continuing, GZ was entitled to fear for his life.
8. The Jury given only the most prejudicial facts against GZ by a corrupt prosecutor and biased judge still didn't believe the state's claim.

Dreadnought
16 Jul 13,, 16:02
IMO, He was tried by a neutral jury (women) and no doubt several I'm guessing are/were a mother at some point in time. With how spirited and passionate a mother can be at any given moment in time the question of a fair jury should be ruled out completely.

If there is one thing I hate its the race card being used in any prosecution or any defense.

And the Federal governmnet has no place stepping in where the state has ruled irregardless of what faction or organization is pressuring them to push it further.

Its about right and wrong according to state law not how you dress it up to be and certainly not about pleasing a constituancy.

Im not stating all is fair but the jury has ruled and the people have spoken.

gunnut
16 Jul 13,, 19:35
Are you saying FOX channel care about Chicago? The media reports what people want to see.

1. What does Fox have anything to do with liberal media not make Chicago's problems front and center? Oh wait, you're pulling a Roosy. When in doubt, just drag out Fox/Bush/Republicans to defend the dubious record of liberal media/Obama/Democrats.

2. Fox does not care about Chicago but Fox does report the high number of murders in Chicago. Why? Because Fox is owned by Murdoch who is in cahoots with the Koch brothers and Karl Rove and they would like nothing less than to see blacks suffer while doing nothing to stop it... Oh wait...the mayor of Chicago is a democrat and Chicago has some of the most stringent gun laws in the US. All is well.



Right, because after the people with the means to leave of the city, no one cares what happens to the rest and declare the problem's solved.

Detroit is your precedent.

gunnut
16 Jul 13,, 19:38
Stupidity is not against the law...

Well, it should be. Decisions should be removed from individuals and replaced by a centralized government agency run by disinterested technocrats who has only the interest of the community in mind.

The good of the many outweighs the good of the few.

Minskaya
16 Jul 13,, 21:04
Minskaya

Zimmerman was found not guilty of 2nd degree murder, that does not make him innocent.

The jury acquitted Zimmerman of the indicted charges... 2nd degree murder and manslaughter. As they say in Hollywood... it's a wrap.


If prosecution had...

If rabbits had square assholes they'd shit bricks.

Aryajet
16 Jul 13,, 21:16
Stupidity is not against the law...

These are facts
1. the hoodie was hanging 2-4" away from TM body indicatign he was leaning forward when shot.
2. GZ had a broken nose (mouth and nose filled with blood, breathing problems because he was supine and his eyes were vision was impaired.
3. GZ had 6 lacerations to the back of his head from the concrete
4. There was grass and debris on the back of GZ's clothes.
5. Witness saw TM on top
6. Under ever assault/battery law in the county, beating someone when they are down, seriously injured and otherwise incapacitated is a VIOLENT FELONY.
7. Under Florida law, having been disabled and the attack continuing, GZ was entitled to fear for his life.
8. The Jury given only the most prejudicial facts against GZ by a corrupt prosecutor and biased judge still didn't believe the state's claim.

Z,
By the time G.Z lost his sight on him T.M disappeared for 4 full minutes and all of a sudden showed up and attacked G.Z.
A disturbed lady called 911 claiming there are 2 people behind her porch wrestling and fighting, while she was on the phone you could here screaming, yelling and crying "Help" at the back ground, lady also mention that they both looked male and the one with white shoes was on the top of the other. We all know T.M was the one with white shows which were the only thing the lady could distinguish at the dark of the night. All phone conversation are in the link which Tankie posted

I have no doubt in my mind as well as jury's mind that it was T.M who attacked G.Z. Would he stayed at his dad's house probably every thing would be over without any harm. All said I still believe G.Z was a contributing factor to this tragedy, would he stayed in his SUV until a patrol car get there it could've been a different story and we probably would never hear about it.

Aryajet
16 Jul 13,, 21:19
The jury acquitted Zimmerman of the indicted charges... 2nd degree murder and manslaughter. As they say in Hollywood... it's a wrap.
.

I still believe being found not guilty and being innocent is 2 different things.

Minskaya
16 Jul 13,, 21:35
I still believe being found not guilty and being innocent is 2 different things.
The legal system in the US is founded upon the presumption of innocence.

A jury cannot and should not prove that a defendant is innocent.

They need only find that they are not guilty of the charge. The accused is then assumed innocent in the eyes of the law.

Minskaya
16 Jul 13,, 21:51
You have to understand that 'innocent' is synonymous with 'without blemish'. In this sense then, none of us are truly and thoroughly innocent.

The utmost a jury can do then is declare a person not guilty of a specific charge.

zraver
16 Jul 13,, 23:03
Well according to Rachael Jeantel on Piers Morgan, TM attacked GZ because Tm thought GZ thought he was gay.... if true TM died in the commision of a hate crime... Oh the tangled webs.

New Talking Point: Trayvon Was the Bigot, As He Thought Zimmerman Was Gay - Elspeth Reeve - The Atlantic Wire (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/new-talking-point-trayvon-martin-was-real-bigot-because-he-thought-zimmerman-was-gay/67235/)

gunnut
16 Jul 13,, 23:29
I did not know "cracka" is an acceptable term for white people.

Parihaka
17 Jul 13,, 00:05
Unfortunately the only source we have for what Zimmerman did prior to the physical altercation between the two is Zimmerman himself.

I was thinking in terms of where Zimmerman said he'd meet the cops vs where the assault and killing took place, but as you say it's moot if the 911 operator can't give clear directives.

Parihaka
17 Jul 13,, 00:08
Well, it should be. Decisions should be removed from individuals and replaced by a centralized government agency run by disinterested technocrats who has only the interest of the community in mind.

The good of the many outweighs the good of the few.
:rolleyes: i introduced a smiley specifically for this :whome:

Parihaka
17 Jul 13,, 00:11
The legal system in the US is founded upon the presumption of innocence.

A jury cannot and should not prove that a defendant is innocent.

They need only find that they are not guilty of the charge. The accused is then assumed innocent in the eyes of the law.
Precisely. This is a much misunderstood basic aspect of the law, where people think their personal opinions somehow should be taken into consideration legalistically. If that's a word. Hmmm.

gunnut
17 Jul 13,, 00:13
:rolleyes: i introduced a smiley specifically for this :whome:

But I was speaking as a registered democrat...:whome:

zraver
17 Jul 13,, 00:30
You can call a white man what ever you want as long as he is actually he and not transgendered or gay. Apparently the same applies to hispanic men if you call him white-hispanic.

troung
17 Jul 13,, 04:57
Some people in a fantasy world losing their minds and the point... :grump:

COMMENTARY: Concealed handguns a form of white social control

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COMMENTARY: Concealed handguns a form of white social control - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/commentary-concealed-handguns-a-form-of-white-social-control/2013/07/16/79501306-ee40-11e2-bb32-725c8351a69e_story.html)

By Mark I. Pinsky| Religion News Service, Updated: Tuesday, July 16, 1:52 PM

Racism remains a dark, durable — and seemingly intractable — element of the American personality. Predictably, the trial of George Zimmerman for the fatal shooting of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin was a national racial Rorschach test.

The not guilty verdict has allowed shadow racists among conservative media pundits the cover to begin to emerge with their real agendas: Trayvon Martin was a typical, young, inner city thug, and he got what was coming to him.

The case opened a vein of bile only exacerbated by the anonymity of the Internet. As demonstrated in the past, people were willing to write vile things from behind the cyber curtain they would never have the courage to say in public (albeit often with spelling, punctuation and grammatical errors). The more threatening of these — amplified and magnified by talk radio and cable television — raised fears of post-verdict violence that have thus far not materialized.

I covered more than two dozen capital murder, rape and insurrection trials in the South in the 1970s, and death penalty cases in California in the 1990s.

I covered the shooting of Trayvon Martin and the trial of George Zimmerman, and have a dual perspective on the proceedings, and the outcome. As a longtime court reporter, the jury’s decision did not surprise me. As a religion writer the outcome was nonetheless troubling, no less for having seen it coming.

The further you are from the courtroom the more ethically and morally vexing Zimmerman’s acquittal must seem. Where is the justice? Did not Trayvon Martin, have a superior moral — and legal — right to stand his ground and to defend himself that rainy night, returning from an innocent errand? Clearly, he did.

Part of the problem with the trial, apart from the prosecution’s now widely acknowledged blunder in overcharging Zimmerman with second-degree murder, lies with the Florida legislature, and the political climate that sent its members to Tallahassee.

In particular, with the lunatic — and, I would argue, racist — manner in which it has defined self-defense. You can start a fight for any reason, and if you begin to lose the altercation, and feel you are about to suffer grave body harm, you can kill the other person with total immunity.

Or, worse, if you manage to extricate yourself, you are under no obligation to leave the scene. You can safely stand in the middle of the street and shoot the other person in the heart. (The state’s “Stand Your Ground” law played no role in Zimmerman’s criminal trial.)

Where are the moral and ethical underpinnings for such a legal philosophy? Much of it, in my view, and that of other political historians, derives from a Florida legislature controlled by a Republican Party whose modern, 20th-century foundation is the White Citizens’ Council; when Southern blacks battled their way into the Democratic Party as part of the civil rights movement, diehard racist whites left for the GOP.

More recently, the GOP has been shaped and skewed by a demagogic notion of what constitutes law and order, and a creepy, almost pathological fixation with carrying concealed handguns. In Florida, Texas or North Carolina there is little demonstrated practical need for citizens in non-high risk occupations to be armed outside their homes and places of business.

With barely a wink and a nod, it is evident to a significant segment of the white political class in Florida, and throughout the Sunbelt, who the menace is considered to be — the “other,” people like Trayvon Martin. In much the same way that lynchings in the 19th and 20th century served as a symbolic — and actual — mechanism of social control in the South, so too does the acquittal of George Zimmerman for taking the life of Trayvon Martin.

(Longtime religion writer  Mark I. Pinsky is author of the forthcoming “Met Her on the Mountain: A Forty-Year Quest to Solve the Appalachian Cold-Case Murder of Nancy Morgan.”)

Triple C
17 Jul 13,, 06:08
1. What does Fox have anything to do with liberal media not make Chicago's problems front and center? Oh wait, you're pulling a Roosy. When in doubt, just drag out Fox/Bush/Republicans to defend the dubious record of liberal media/Obama/Democrats.

I am pointing out the obvious: ALL media ignore routine and common place urban violence because it is routine and commonplace. If unreporting on urban crime has an ideological bias, you'd expect conservative press to use it to attack liberal political strongholds. Yet, it does not happen. This is basic logic.

Btw, NYT has been tracking urban violence trend in Chicago with bi-monthly updates, so had CNN.



2. Fox does not care about Chicago but Fox does report the high number of murders in Chicago. Why? Because Fox is owned by Murdoch who is in cahoots with the Koch brothers and Karl Rove and they would like nothing less than to see blacks suffer while doing nothing to stop it... Oh wait...the mayor of Chicago is a democrat and Chicago has some of the most stringent gun laws in the US. All is well.


Again, completely missing the point.


Detroit is your precedent.

Yes! And what an excellent example of dealing with urban violence!

gunnut
17 Jul 13,, 10:18
Btw, NYT has been tracking urban violence trend in Chicago with bi-monthly updates, so had CNN.

And here we are, with nation wide protest over the death of dozens of young black men every single day, killed by other young black men. :rolleyes:

Monash
17 Jul 13,, 13:14
Except it hasn't happened.... The anti-gun crowd made similar projections about shall- issue laws.... Problem with these predictions is gun owners tend to be more law abiding and less prone to violence.

zraver, No serious person would suggest that the outcome of the Zimmerman decision will be an immediate/significant escalation in similar shootings. What this and similar events will do however is convince less prudent, (or more hot headed if you prefer) and poorly trained civilian that they can in some circumstances initiate "incidents" and be protected from the consequences of their own actions. America is a big place - ask yourself how many other potential "Zimmermans" there are walking around out there, perhaps in your own town with a firearm and a self appointed charter. One unnecessary shooting is bad enough, even if this decision results in only a few score more over the next few years that is surly worse.

As for the trial IMO it was a serious laying the 2nd degree murder charge, based on the albeit limited amount I have read about the case so far there was insufficient evidence of premeditation/recklessness. Had they given the jury a manslaughter charge alone however and I'm betting the outcome would have been different. Beyond that not much to say, no wins out of this except perhaps Zimmerman's lawyer.

zraver
17 Jul 13,, 14:47
Had they given the jury a manslaughter charge alone however and I'm betting the outcome would have been different. Beyond that not much to say, no wins out of this except perhaps Zimmerman's lawyer.

Under Florida law, because he was in fear for his life, having been disabled by TM's assault upon his person it was a legal shoot. Florida's stand your ground law had nothing to do with the trial. When TM continued to beat GZ long after he was down and out the situation escalated. According to Rachel Jeantel, the beating continued because TM thought GZ was gay.

GZ got his ass beat, he deserved it. TM died during the commission of a felony and that has nothing to do with race or stand your ground laws.

Triple C
17 Jul 13,, 16:22
And here we are, with nation wide protest over the death of dozens of young black men every single day, killed by other young black men. :rolleyes:

And it has got zilch to do with the damn lib media.

gunnut
17 Jul 13,, 19:58
And it has got zilch to do with the damn lib media.

Sure it has. Why aren't the damn lib media out blastin' the plight of the black community on the air waves every single day? Why are the damn lib media so obssessed about a single black man killed by a non-black man? From the way the Zimmerman case was covered you'd figure the black community never suffered from violence except by non-blacks.

zraver
17 Jul 13,, 20:31
Sure it has. Why aren't the damn lib media out blastin' the plight of the black community on the air waves every single day? Why are the damn lib media so obssessed about a single black man killed by a non-black man? From the way the Zimmerman case was covered you'd figure the black community never suffered from violence except by non-blacks.

93% of black men killed by violence, are killed by other black men.

bigross86
17 Jul 13,, 20:32
And here we are, with nation wide protest over the death of dozens of young black men every single day, killed by other young black men. :rolleyes:

33389

alero
17 Jul 13,, 22:14
“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”
― Booker T. Washington

It's rather amazing how timeless Booker T. Washington's words echo after more than a century.....the sharptons, jacksons, and the myriad other who profit in different ways from exploiting race issues while ignoring the other issues that affect ethnic communities in this country are a perfect fit in Washington's portrayal of the merchants of racism.

I am a firm believer in the second amendment, the right to bear arms responsibly, and the 1,000-year old doctrine of self-defense which, in the common law, requires retreat only where possible. This "stand your ground" law is much misunderstood by ignorance or convenience as meaning that we can shoot at will when that is not the case albeit those who seek to do wrong will, as they have done throughout history, twist any law in their wrongful actions which is why evidence and a diligent jury is required to separate those who make valid claims to self-defense from those who don't. Ultimately, all boils down to the evidence and in the Zimmerman case the evidence could have only direct the jury to the verdict they announced.

I have no problem acknowledging that Zimmerman does bear some moral culpability for engaging in a pursuit of Trayvon but that pursuit was not illegal and thus no crime can be attributed to it. The starting point for the case was who threw the first punch. Had Zimmerman been proven to have crossed that line then he could not invoke self-defense as a defense to the use of lethal force. The evidence indicates that Trayvon threw the first punch and thus Zimmerman, being pinned to the ground and thus unable to retreat anyways, made a valid claim of self-defense. Admitedly, we might be wrong but absent evidence to the contrary the presumption of legal innocence cannot be set aside to satisfy moral claims.

I find it troubling that the prosecution sought to remove evidence regarding Trayvon's character (i.e. his texts describing fights and more specifically techniques similar to those testified to by witnesses and supported by the evidence) and then engaged in utter disrespect of the jury's decision. I also find it troubling that the media has lost all consciousness as to the effects of their callous pursuit for ratings. Thus far I am aware of two incidents of racial attacks from blacks against whites or hispanics as a result of the flaming rhetoric of those in the media and, unfortunately, those in government.

self-defense laws and the right to bear arms are not the source of the ills in the black community. Trayvon was a troubled teenager and his mother sent him to his father's house after yet another expulsion from school. younger generations are being abandoned to grow without proper guidance and end up adhering to gansta culture and attitudes that only perpetuate the problems of that community. it's time that blacks assume responsibility for the state of their communities and understand that no effort to fully rid our society of racism is possible so long as they hold onto racism's ulgy twin: resentment.

tbm3fan
18 Jul 13,, 02:09
I have never seen an updated photo of Martin until today. What a difference between the 12 year old photo and the 17 year old one with tattoos. If I had seen him walking down the street in my direction I would have profiled him immediately. My life and therefore I profile everyone passing me on the street who warrants it. Besides after having a hand gun put into my face on a robbery after which I get hit over the head with a sawed off shotgun tends to make one cautious. That caution, bred by the experience, got me out of another similar situation where the would be robber met a 2x4 violently in the end.

gunnut
18 Jul 13,, 02:36
I cannot find a recent photo of Martin. Everything that came up was the same 4 photos over and over again. I'm beginning to think that he was really the only teenager in the entire US who did not have a single photograph taken after age 12.

Triple C
18 Jul 13,, 07:02
Sure it has. Why aren't the damn lib media out blastin' the plight of the black community on the air waves every single day?

And who's gonna watch it?

Do you really think ANY media company promote and select stories to engineer public opinion? They'll be fools if they do that. They cater to what their audience would watch or click. This generates viewing average and subscriptions therefore revenue. People are paying attention to the shooting because that's what people want to see and are interested at.

Look at how this topic is on going in every forum.

Mihais
18 Jul 13,, 08:52
And who's gonna watch it?

Do you really think ANY media company promote and select stories to engineer public opinion?
Yes.And I don't think,I know.They told me.And not only they engineer the ''news'',there are informal laws of what's acceptable and what's not in the branch.One of the rules in the Scripture is ''Thou shall not criticise ''minorities'' in the slightest''.

They'll be fools if they do that. They cater to what their audience would watch or click.

People are creatures of habit,so they buy the brand.If it's on BBC or CNN it's ''important'' and ''relevant''.Just because it's on a major news outlet.People will watch or click anyway,and they will find the same subjects.The only area where competition still exists is exclusivity,and even that is no longer what it used to be.

Doktor
18 Jul 13,, 09:22
Mihais,

You forgot to mention media concentration.

cyppok
19 Jul 13,, 03:09
LiveLeak.com - Charles Barkley Agrees w/ Zimmerman Verdict, Attacks Media Giving Racists Platform To Vent Ignorance (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=682_1374189425)

Charles Barkley Agrees w/ Zimmerman Verdict, Attacks Media Giving Racists Platform To Vent Ignorance

NBA legend Charles Barkley appeared on CNBC's Closing Bell with Maria Bartiromo Thursday afternoon and shared his incredibly diplomatic views on George Zimmerman's acquittal. "I agree with the verdict," Barkley told Bartiromo. "I'm sorry that young kid got killed, but they didn't have enough evidence to charge him."

Nice short video. Good thoughts

tbm3fan
19 Jul 13,, 03:47
I do believe instances like this one have simply been pushed to the forefront because it does give a platform for those with names like Jackson and Sharpton. Without them these guys would have nothing to keep them busy, keep them in the public eye and enable them to leverage it for an income.

As an example did this reach the national news today? No, it didn't and I feel it puts a lie to those who made Zimmerman/Martin into more than it was.

Girl slain at Oakland sleepover; 3 hurt - SFGate (http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Girl-slain-at-Oakland-sleepover-3-hurt-4672223.php)

gunnut
19 Jul 13,, 21:33
Obama: 'Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago'

By Michael O'Brien, Political Reporter, NBC News

President Barack Obama made a surprise appearance at the White House Friday to discuss African-Americans' reaction to last weekend's verdict in the George Zimmerman case, saying that "Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago."

"You know, when Trayvon Martin was first shot, I said that this could have been my son. Another way of saying that is Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago. And when you think about why, in the African- American community at least, there's a lot of pain around what happened here, I think it's important to recognize that the African- American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that -- that doesn't go away," he said.

Obama addressed the issue personally as well, saying, “There are very few African-American men in this country who haven’t had the experience of being followed when they are shopping at a department store. And that includes me.”

He recalled his own experiences before becoming a nationally-recognized politician, noting, “There are very few African- American men who haven’t had the experience of walking across the street and hearing the locks click on the doors of cars. That happens to me, at least before I was a senator. There are very few African-Americans who haven’t had the experience of getting on an elevator and a woman clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath until she had a chance to get off.”

And he contended that these attitudes often shape perceptions in the United States.

“I don't want to exaggerate this, but those sets of experiences inform how the African-American community interprets what happened one night in Florida and it's inescapable for people to bring those experiences to bear,” he said.

Asked if the president had thoroughly contemplated his remarks, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said, “I don’t think there’s any question, and you can judge by what he just said and how he said it, he knows what he thinks and he knows what he feels, and he had not just in the past week but for a good portion of his life given a lot of thought to these issues.”

Obama also suggested that the outcome of the case could have been different if Martin were white. "If a white male teen would have been involved in this scenario," he said, "both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different."

The president also nodded to the Justice Department investigation which is probing whether or not to bring federal civil rights charges against Zimmerman. But Obama also urged state and local officials to review their own procedures to see how to improve their law enforcement practices.

He also called for a review of so-called "Stand Your Ground" laws, a central issue in the case.

"If Trayvon Martin was of age and was armed, could he have stood his ground on that sidewalk?" Obama asked. "If the answer to that question is at least ambiguous, then it seems to me that we should examine those laws."

Obama said he wanted to "reiterate what I said on Sunday, which is there are going to be a lot of arguments about the legal issues in the case. I'll let all the legal analysts and talking heads address those issues."

The president added, "The judge conducted the trial in a professional manner. The prosecution and the defense made their arguments. The jurors were properly instructed that in a case such as this, reasonable doubt was relevant and they rendered a verdict. And once the jury's spoken, that's how our system works."

And though Obama sidestepped the idea of demanding a new, national conversation on race -- and while he said that racism was far from eliminated -- the president ended on an upbeat moment, expressing his view that race relations are "getting better."

"I don’t want us to lose sight that things are getting better. Each successive generation seems to be making progress in changing attitudes when it comes to race. I doesn’t mean that we’re in a post racial society. It doesn’t mean that racism is eliminated," he said. "But you know, when I talk to Malia and Sasha and I listen to their friends and I see them interact, they’re better than we are."

Obama added: "We have to be vigilant and we have to work on these issues, and those of us in authority should be doing everything we can to encourage the better angels of our nature as opposed to using these episodes to heighten divisions. But we should also have confidence that kids these days I think have more sense than we did back then, and certainly more than our parents did or our grandparents did, and that along this long, difficult journey, we’re becoming a more perfect union -- not a perfect union, but a more perfect union."


Obama: 'Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago' - NBC Politics (http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/19/19563211-obama-trayvon-martin-could-have-been-me-35-years-ago?lite)

Just when I thought the Obama could not sink any lower, he managed to exceed my expectation once again.

Parihaka
19 Jul 13,, 23:18
Hey, his grandma was a typical white woman.

gunnut
19 Jul 13,, 23:44
Hey, his grandma was a typical white woman.

That's true! All white people are racist. I can't imagine growing up in a racist household like that, having to fear for your life from your own grandmother*.


* Intentional sarcasm - this is a public service announcement for the sarcastically challenged.

zraver
20 Jul 13,, 00:57
Hey, his grandma was a typical white woman.

So was Zimmermans... on his fathers side. Zimmerman is no more white than Obama is.

antimony
20 Jul 13,, 02:09
Obama: 'Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago' - NBC Politics (http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/19/19563211-obama-trayvon-martin-could-have-been-me-35-years-ago?lite)

Just when I thought the Obama could not sink any lower, he managed to exceed my expectation once again.

Regardless of what I think of the case, I don't see why Obama has to insert himself into small scale controversies like this, especially around race. There was that incident with the Harvard professor, and then the Trayvon/ Zimmerman case

zraver
20 Jul 13,, 02:14
Regardless of what I think of the case, I don't see why Obama has to insert himself into small scale controversies like this, especially around race. There was that incident with the Harvard professor, and then the Trayvon/ Zimmerman case

These controversies are just his size because at heart he is a small weak little man full of envy.

antimony
20 Jul 13,, 02:18
These controversies are just his size because at heart he is a small weak little man full of envy.

Come on now, no call for that :)

Monash
20 Jul 13,, 03:44
Under Florida law, because he was in fear for his life, having been disabled by TM's assault upon his person it was a legal shoot. Florida's stand your ground law had nothing to do with the trial. When TM continued to beat GZ long after he was down and out the situation escalated. According to Rachel Jeantel, the beating continued because TM thought GZ was gay.

GZ got his ass beat, he deserved it. TM died during the commission of a felony and that has nothing to do with race or stand your ground laws.

Zraver - I'd have to assess the prosecution brief in detail to before I could express a solid opinion based on experience. As it stands I went with manslaughter because (based on what little I have seen/heard) the prosecution could argue that Z initiated the encounter by choosing to follow M despite receiving professional advice from law enforcement not to do so. Step one Z as the initiator. Then I believe you have the phone call from M to a friend?? saying he was being followed by - was the term weirdo?? Step 2 - the "vicitm" is expressing concern/fear for his welfare to a third party. Add to this evidence as to the mindset/demeanor of both parties at the time of the incident e.g you have evidence as to M's passive demeanor and intent at the time he left the house he was staying in to go shopping plus evidence of his equally passive/law abiding demeanor while in the store where he made his purchases before leaving to return home. Against this you lead evidence of v's Z's mindset/demeanor at the time e.g. his being on watch and looking for "trouble in the neighborhood". He's tried to get into law enforcement so if available get copies of his phych profile or order one if it hasn't been done. Review his history -show he has a short fuse or tends to make rash decision's etc.

Haven't seen/heard the eyewitness testimony regarding the fight itself but you have that plus the physical evidence showing it occurred . At this at this point the prosecution would have try and paint a picture in the minds of the juror's of what was going through M's mind at the precise time the physical conflict occurred. So you have to ask what an ordinary person and especially a young adult male might do if he thought was being followed by a "weirdo" with possible criminal or sexual intent. Do you confront the person or seek to get away. We all know in this case what the smart thing to do would have been and the woman members of jury would know straight away. But what your trying to do is get them to think "what would a teenage boy do?" - which is where you would be hoping the male members of the jury would pipe up and say "yes when I was that age I could see myself or a friend doing what M did" i.e. confronting the guy. (For that matter ask yourself what would you do if were in a strange town and walking down a street alone at night and thought you were being followed?)

The whole point of your line of argument would be that M's conduct up to the point of contact was reasonable i.e. it was what any other person could have done in the same circumstances. (Vs the "fact" that not many of the jurors would have done what Z did if given the choice). So you paint a "picture" of a nervous young kid who confronts a stranger who you can prove by his own admission was following him. At that point unless you have clear, independent first hand evidence of the first words spoken and the first physical contact you are halfway home. Witnesses stating they saw M on top of Z doesn't go to proving who initiated contact or what Z might have said to alarm M.

At the end of the day the manslaughter charge would be about negligence not intent. Your not trying to prove that Z wanted to hurt or kill M just that M died because of a series poor decisions made by Z. If I remember correctly at least some of the jurors got confused because they felt they had to decide whether Z intended to kill M or it was an accident or neither. I think a manslaughter charge was doable (at least it would be over here) but I never was that confident on the 2nd degree murder charge.

Cheers

astralis
20 Jul 13,, 04:21
antimony,


Regardless of what I think of the case, I don't see why Obama has to insert himself into small scale controversies like this, especially around race. There was that incident with the Harvard professor, and then the Trayvon/ Zimmerman case

for better or worse the issue of race still haunts today's african-american population. this type of trial has the tendency to evoke the worst type of pent-up emotion-- emotions which can both be justified and not so justified. obama was very much correct in dealing with this head-on.

zraver
20 Jul 13,, 05:41
Zraver - I'd have to assess the prosecution brief in detail to before I could express a solid opinion based on experience. As it stands I went with manslaughter because....

OK I am going to split some legal hairs, but thats the way its done.

First, the dispatcher never actually told him not to follow TM, only that they didn't need him to. A small technicality but important in that GZ it means GZ was no longer acting in opposition to what the 911 dispatcher was telling him to do. This means GZ trailing TM is technically still in the realm of legitimate and defensible action.

Second, while TM may have had a stand your ground defense in assaulting GZ. Once TM moved from simple assault (justified) to felony assault he lost all legal protection. Once GZ was on the ground and disabled and no longer a threat, the reason for the beating vanished. Thus when he kept beating GZ, GZ like anyone subject to a violent felony was entitled to fear for their life.

Monash
20 Jul 13,, 09:05
OK I am going to split some legal hairs, but thats the way its done.

Second, while TM may have had a stand your ground defense in assaulting GZ. Once TM moved from simple assault (justified) to felony assault he lost all legal protection. Once GZ was on the ground and disabled and no longer a threat, the reason for the beating vanished. Thus when he kept beating GZ, GZ like anyone subject to a violent felony was entitled to fear for their life.

Trouble is as far as I am aware we don't have a complete eye witness account of the entire fight (apart from Z's of course) from go to woe. Witnesses saw TM on top of Z but how did they end up in that position? What were the dynamics of the fight? Did TM push Z away or try to punch him, did Z grab TM's arm and try to make a citizens arrest, did they struggle and fall with TM ending up on top of Z and punching him in an attempt to get away? Those few brief seconds are contentious.

So you end up with both the prosecution and defense are trying to paint a picture of the events with some parts left blank. A scenario which always favors the defense.

Cheers

Officer of Engineers
20 Jul 13,, 09:19
for better or worse the issue of race still haunts today's african-american populationHe's the President of United States. Get over it.

Defcon5
20 Jul 13,, 10:46
Shooter wasn't white, he is a round faced, brown skinned hispanic. The whole process was a farce.

No he is not, brown = Indians.......... He on other hand is Caucasian = white. ;)

Minskaya
20 Jul 13,, 11:38
No he is not, brown = Indians.......... He on other hand is Caucasian = white. ;)
The wink indicates that you are being facetious, but for the benefit of others it's a bit more complex than that.

Per the US Census, those who tick the Hispanic/Latino box can then choose from any of the five race categories offered or simply choose 'other'.

They can also elect to choose multiple race categories.

astralis
20 Jul 13,, 17:24
OoE,


He's the President of United States. Get over it.

you misunderstand me. i'm not saying Obama is haunted, i'm saying the general African-American populace is. and given both the political aspect (African-Americans are part of the Democratic base) and the historical aspect (POTUS role as first African-American president), he was completely correct in addressing this issue.

moreover, the gist of the speech was that the rule of law has spoken, and that there are more productive methods of ensuring long-term justice than turning this into a race carnival.

zraver
20 Jul 13,, 17:40
No he is not, brown = Indians.......... He on other hand is Caucasian = white. ;)

The term they prefer is Native Americans. Those from the subcontinent after all are Aryans :P

McFire
21 Jul 13,, 00:09
Having followed this case since March 2012, I think many would change their opinions if they knew the true Martin family and the true Trayvon...neither of which was portrayed in the court, nor was the defense allowed to bring up. There's also far more political aspects from the case than is general public knowledge. :eek:

Watch the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls

If you want some fascinating information on the Zimmerman case, check out: The Last Refuge | Rag Tag Bunch of Conservative Misfits – Contact Info: TheLastRefuge@reagan.com (http://theconservativetreehouse.com/)

You can come to your own conclusions.

zraver
21 Jul 13,, 00:33
Its fairly obvious that TM was not an innocent 17yo kid. He died committing felony assault on someone he thought was gay (hate crime), while in possession of 2 of the three ingredients of a drug cocktail (purple drank/purple lean. syzzurp). He had a history of fighting, was planning on buying a gun, had pictures of himself with a gun and doing drugs, had been expelled from his previous school district....

He was a thug not a sweet innocent boy.

Parihaka
21 Jul 13,, 02:55
Although technically "a gated community," the Retreat imploded after the Florida real estate bubble burst. By 2012, townhouses were selling for less than $100,000, fifteen percent were vacant, more than half were being rented, and fewer than half of the residents were white.
Trayvon Martin had been staying with his father's girlfriend, Brandy Green, who rented one of the units. Martin had gone to a neighborhood 7-11 that evening and left the store at 6:29. Zimmerman spotted him near a shortcut entrance to the Retreat about 7:05. The 7-11 is about a 10-minute walk from that spot. Do the math.
At 7:09:34, after spotting Martin, Zimmerman called the non-emergency number the SPD had given him. He described "a male approximately 5' 11" to 6' 2" casually walking in the rain and looking into homes."
SPD: Sanford Police Department, (garbled) recording, this is Shawn.
GZ: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there's a real suspicious guy, uh [near] Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. [00:25]
SPD: Okay, and this guy, is he white, black, or Hispanic?
GZ: He looks black.
SPD: Did you see what he was wearing?
GZ: Yeah, a dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie, and either jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He's here now. He's just staring. [00:43]
SPD: Okay, he's just walking around the area...
GZ: ...looking at all the houses.
SPD: Okay...
GZ: Now he's staring at me. [00:48]
SPD: Okay, you said that's 1111 Retreat View or 111?
GZ: That's the clubhouse.
SPD: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the...he's near the clubhouse right now?
GZ: Yeah, now he's coming toward me.
SPD: Okay.
GZ: He's got his hands in his waistband. And he's a black male. [1:09]
SPD: How old would you say he looks?
GZ: He's got a button on his shirt, late teens.
SPD: Late teens, okay.
GZ: Uh, huh. Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. [01:26]
SPD: Let me know if he does anything, okay?
GZ: (anxiously) See if you can get an officer over here.
SPD: Yeah, we've got someone on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
GZ: Okay. These a**holes. They always get away.
At this point, it sounds as if Zimmerman is getting out of the truck, but not yet moving.
GZ: When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:53]
SPD: Okay, so it's on the left hand side from the clubhouse?
GZ: Nah, you go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Sh**, he's running. [2:08]
Trayvon Martin headed east along an east-west sidewalk cut-through between the two streets, Twin Trees, where Zimmerman was parked, and Retreat View. He then turned south on a sidewalk that intersects the cut-through and runs between the backs of the buildings on either street. The townhouse where he had been staying was less than 400 feet down that sidewalk.
SPD: He's running? Which way is he running?
GZ: Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]
SPD: OK, which entrance is that he's headed towards?
Zimmerman could see the direction Martin took but could no longer "maintain a visual" from the truck. Ambient wind sounds suggest he started walking swiftly, likely in the same direction Martin was running.
GZ: The back entrance. It's f***ing cold (garbled, much disputed).
The dispatcher obviously heard the wind sounds.
SPD: Are you following him? [2:24]
GZ: Yeah.
SPD: Okay. We don't need you to do that. [2:26]
GZ: Okay.
SPD: All right, sir, what is your name? [2:34]
GZ: George. He ran.
At this point, Zimmerman's breathing relaxed, and the sound of wind abated.
SPD: All right, George, what's your last name?
GZ: Zimmerman.
SPD: And George, what's the phone number you're calling from?
GZ: 407-435-2400.
SPD: All right, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
GZ: Yeah.
SPD: All right, where are you going to meet with them at?
GZ: Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then they go past the mailboxes they'll see my truck. [3:10]
SPD: All right, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]
GZ: Um, I don't know. It's a cut-through so I don't know the address. [3:25]
SPD: Okay, do you live in the area?
GZ: Yeah, yeah, I live here.
SPD: Okay, what's your apartment number?
GZ: It's a home. It's 1950 -- oh, crap, I don't want to give it out -- I don't know where this kid is (inaudible). [3:40]
SPD: Okay, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes, then? [3:42]
GZ: Yeah, that's fine. [3:43]
SPD: All right, George, I'll let them know you'll meet them at...
GZ: Could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at? [3:51]
SPD: Okay, that's no problem.
GZ: My number...you've got it?
SPD: Yeah, I've got it. 407-435-2400?
GZ: Yeah, you got it.
SPD: Okay, no problem. I'll let them know to call you when they're in the area. [4:02]
GZ: Thanks.
SPD: You're welcome.
The call ended four minutes and change after it started at 7:13:39. Zimmerman picked up the written narrative: "The dispatcher told me not to follow the suspect & that an officer was on the way. As I headed back to my vehicle the suspect emerged from the darkness and said, 'You got a problem?'" When Zimmerman answered "No," the suspect said, "You do now."
As I looked and tried to find my phone to dial 911 the suspect punched me in the face. I fell backwards onto my back. The suspect got on top of me. I yelled "Help" several times. The suspect told me, "Shut the f*** up." As I tried to sit upright, the suspect grabbed my head and slammed it into the concrete sidewalk several times. I continued to yell "Help." Each time I attempted to sit up, the suspect slammed my head into the sidewalk. My head felt like it was going to explode. I tried to slide out from under the suspect and continue to yell "Help."
Heard in the background of the 911 call from Witness #11 was a man desperately yelling "help" over and over again for about forty-two seconds. The call started at 7:16:11, about two and a half minutes after Zimmerman ended his call with SPD.
As I slid the suspect covered my mouth and nose and stopped my breathing. At this point I felt the suspect reach for my now exposed firearm and say, "Your [sic] gonna die tonight Mother F***er." I unholstered my firearm in fear for my life as he had assured me he was going to kill me and I fired one shot into his torso. The suspect sat back allowing me to sit up and said "You got me."
The screams ended abruptly with a single gunshot at 7:16:59. Zimmerman's narrative continues.
At this point I slid out from underneath him and got on top of the suspect holding his hands away from his body. An onlooker appeared and asked me if I was ok. I said "No." He said "I am calling 911." I said "I don't need you to call 911. I already called them. I need you to help me restrain this guy." At this point a SPD officer arrived and asked "Who shot him." I said I did and placed my hands on top of my head and told the officer where on my persons (sic) my firearm was holstered. The officer handcuffed me and disarmed me. The officer then placed me in the pack of his vehicle.
Zimmerman's own account ended here. Officer Timothy Smith arrived less than a minute after the shooting at 7:17:40 p.m. and reported finding Zimmerman standing near Martin, who was lying face down in the grass about 40 or so feet south of the intersection between the east-west cut through and the north-south walkway, roughly 100 yards from Green's townhouse. Smith noted that Zimmerman's back was wet and covered with grass and that he was bleeding from the nose and the back of his head.
As Smith would tell the State Attorney's Office, Zimmerman volunteered that he had shot Martin. "I was yelling for help but no one would help me," he told Smith and complained that his head was hurting. The officer handcuffed Zimmerman "for safety reasons." Officer Jordan Broderick arrived shortly afterwards and saw "that the back of Zimmerman's head was cut and he was bloodied."
Officer Jonathan Mead also saw Zimmerman in custody and "noted his injured nose and bleeding head." As Mead told the state attorney's office in April 2012, he had "dealt with Zimmerman before at the complex when Zimmerman had found open doors and houses. Zimmerman had reported suspicious persons that he had lost sight of when they (the suspicious person) went around a building. Zimmerman had been on foot when [he] met him on prior occasions."
Officer Richard Ayala arrived at the scene soon after Smith. When Ayala got there, Smith had Zimmerman at gunpoint, so Ayala tended to Martin, who was then lying face-down with his hands under his body. Ayala rolled Martin over and "felt a large cold can in the center pocket." Martin had $40 and change in his pants pockets as well as "one (1) red '711' brand name lighter, photo button, Skittles, and headphones."
When Ayala and a fellow officer attempted CPR and other first aid, the can came loose and was misidentified as an "Arizona brand name tea can." (It was actually an Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail.) The officers located Martin's cell phone in the grass away from the body.
Officer Smith drove Zimmerman to the SPD station. Before leaving, Smith had asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital. Zimmerman declined. On the way to the police station, though, Zimmerman complained "that his head hurt and he felt a little light headed." Asked once again if he wanted to go to the hospital, Zimmerman hesitated and then declined.
Once at the station, Smith took Zimmerman to the interview room and kept an eye on him for health reasons. Soon after, the SPD fingerprinted him, removed his clothes as evidence, conducted forensic tests on his hands for gunpowder residue, and kept his handgun to be examined. The police then questioned him at length. The session began at 8:15 p.m. Sunday and ended more than five hours later.
An hour after the shooting, Witness #6 told the SPD that he saw a "black man in a black hoodie on top of either a white guy...or an Hispanic guy in a red sweater on the ground yelling out help." According to #6, the black man on top was "throwing down blows on the guy MMA [mixed martial arts] style." Witness #13 waited until the fighting ended, went outside, and saw Zimmerman walking towards him. "Am I bleeding?" Zimmerman asked. Witness #13 answered affirmatively. He also noticed "blood on the back of his head" and took a picture of it.
According to Witness #8, the girl with whom Martin had been speaking on the phone during this sequence, Martin "attempted to run home." By "home" she meant the townhouse where Martin was staying.
In its probable cause affidavit accusing Zimmerman of murder in the second degree, Florida State Attorney Angela Corey cited Witness #8 and echoed her claim that "Martin attempted to run home but was followed by Zimmerman." According to the affidavit, Zimmerman then "disregarded" the SPD, "continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home," and "confronted" him.
At the time, Zimmerman was four inches shorter and fifty pounds heavier than Martin. He also gave Martin at the very least a twenty-second head start to a destination no more than twenty seconds away. In fact, however, by the time Zimmerman's call with the SPD ended, Martin had had a leisurely two minutes to run the 400 feet to Green's townhouse.
The challenge for the prosecutors is to prove that despite the obvious handicaps, Zimmerman managed to catch a fleeing Martin, confront him, and somehow scare him into yelling "help" during the forty-two seconds he was pummeling Zimmerman MMA-style.
Bottom line: Judge Debra Nelson will have to work very hard to keep Angela Corey from being coupled forever in the public's memory with Mike Nifong.


Read more: Articles: Getting the Facts Straight in the Zimmerman Case (http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/06/getting_the_facts_straight_in_the_zimmerman_case.h tml#ixzz2ZdYs5E1H)
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Parihaka
21 Jul 13,, 02:58
So in the end we have Zimmerman no longer pursuing Martin but simply waiting where arranged with the police department and Martin returning or emerging from cover to assault him. Case closed.

bonehead
21 Jul 13,, 03:07
These controversies are just his size because at heart he is a small weak little man full of envy.

I'd say it was that Obama was paying attention when at church all those years.

zraver
21 Jul 13,, 04:03
I'd say it was that Obama was paying attention when at church all those years.

Wheres his weeping and nashing on teeth when 2 black teens shot a white baby in the face?

bonehead
21 Jul 13,, 05:56
Wheres his weeping and nashing on teeth when 2 black teens shot a white baby in the face?

Rev Jeremia Wright doesn't care for white babies and he was Obama's reverend for 20 years. What do you think?

tankie
21 Jul 13,, 20:05
People are already calling for a change in Florida's stand your ground law. Riots are expected. I hope cooler heads prevail.

So is this justice or a travesty?

John McCain: Arizona's Stand Your Ground Law Should Be Reviewed (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/21/john-mccain-stand-your-ground_n_3631171.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009)

cyppok
21 Jul 13,, 20:14
John McCain: Arizona's Stand Your Ground Law Should Be Reviewed (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/21/john-mccain-stand-your-ground_n_3631171.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009)

I guess he never wants to be elected to anything again.
When your mind goes it goes, sad...

bonehead
22 Jul 13,, 17:36
I guess he never wants to be elected to anything again.
When your mind goes it goes, sad...

McCain has been screwing with our second Amendment rights for quite some time....yet still gets reelected.

Dreadnought
22 Jul 13,, 19:01
Obviously all of these idiots believe the only color of people ever followed in department stores etc were black. I for one can tell you that as a "white" teen we were followed all the time in department and grocery stores all through out growing up. We were young and yes even profiled enough to be followed. In the end we were teens which means we were young, spontanious and reckless just like every other teen.

Hell, even the Wawa's only permit so many students in the store at a time and have for years. Why? Answer- It wasnt the color of your skin.

To think that people role their windows due to the color of your skin is a joke. Anyone and I have seen all colors of skin role their windows when in an unknown area or an area of high crime.

Its their Constitutional Right to do so if it makes them more comfortable.

Using those two above examples to take a black and white stand by both Obama and anyone else that opposes Zimmermans release is flat out pathetic.

All they are doing is giving into pressure and stoking the racial fire with bullshit examples of things that all teens go through not just black teens.

If I was Zimmerman I retain a very good council and sue the Fed if they were to bring charges (due to outside indulgance) and definately sue Shapton. And any city or shop owner that sustains damage should do the very same if their properties are damaged or they are injured during these marches. They have absolutely zero to loose where as the above mentioned has much to loose. Join one big lawsuit.

IMO, whomever talked Obama into giving that statement this past saturday should have been fired on the spot.

A US President does not take a racial stand and should never give fuel to a fire that should have gone out when Zimmerman was declared innocent by the Court of Law.

He should have preached tolerance and the law, The US court of Law.

IMO, He is now about as much an embarrasment to the nation as Clinton was when he lied to the American publics face live on TV.

I for one cannot wait until he is out. And it has zero to do with his skin color.

It has much to do with failing the American people and failure as the leader of the free world where it pertains to following the Rule of Law that governs our land.

gunnut
22 Jul 13,, 19:32
I'm just glad I didn't vote for McCain. I said in 2007 that I would never vote for McCain. Glad my gut feeling was correct.

citanon
22 Jul 13,, 22:49
Zimmerman helps family out of overturned SUV - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/22/us/florida-zimmerman-vehicle/index.html?hpt=hp_c3)

gunnut
22 Jul 13,, 23:15
What a busy body! He should have moved along and not care about his community. At most, call 911 and then leave the scene to let the police handle the situation.

Hasn't he learned his lesson? No good deeds go unpunished.:rolleyes:

citanon
22 Jul 13,, 23:26
What a busy body! He should have moved along and not care about his community. At most, call 911 and then leave the scene to let the police handle the situation.

Hasn't he learned his lesson? No good deeds go unpunished.:rolleyes:

We should have a "Zimmerman is doing more good than you" thread. He'll be like the new Putin.

Parihaka
23 Jul 13,, 00:27
He only helped them because they were white.

Dreadnought
23 Jul 13,, 03:12
He only helped them because they were white.

Umm, How could he tell if the SUV was upside down?:eek:;)

Blademaster
23 Jul 13,, 03:21
the good deed of Zimmerman doesn't absolve him of the killing of Trayvon Martin. He has to answer to Martin's parents. I am somewhat in contempt by some of the posts seeking to cheapen Martin's death. they have no clue of the history of racism that black people went through and the injustice that they faced and were never resolved despite overwhelming evidence.

Officer of Engineers
23 Jul 13,, 03:52
the good deed of Zimmerman doesn't absolve him of the killing of Trayvon Martin. He has to answer to Martin's parents. I am somewhat in contempt by some of the posts seeking to cheapen Martin's death. they have no clue of the history of racism that black people went through and the injustice that they faced and were never resolved despite overwhelming evidence.Hold on there, Hitesh. You said TM's past actions should not be of concern to this case. Then should it not be also of historic racism?

bonehead
23 Jul 13,, 04:11
the good deed of Zimmerman doesn't absolve him of the killing of Trayvon Martin. He has to answer to Martin's parents. I am somewhat in contempt by some of the posts seeking to cheapen Martin's death. they have no clue of the history of racism that black people went through and the injustice that they faced and were never resolved despite overwhelming evidence.

Racism is a two way street. I am in no way minimizing the problems that blacks have endured through history as that list is long and extreme. However at some point you have to answer to your own actions. You cant call someone a cracker and bash his head repeatedly into the pavement then pull out the race card when that person shoots you in self defense. Zimmerman may have followed Travon at first because of his color in addition to his perpetrated actions but no one could realistically argued that Zimmerman was fearful when he was laying on his back, having the crap beat out of him and only then pulled out his gun and pulled the trigger. Lastly Trayvon was not the innocent 12 year old his parents and the media had cast him.

Travon's death was a tragedy that could have been avoided by his own actions. Whats worse is that his death is blatantly being used by those who want more stringent gun laws. These same people couldn't care less about Travon, only that they might be able to use his death to further their cause.

citanon
23 Jul 13,, 05:19
The media reports on this case often forget to mention that there had been several incidents of break ins in the neighborhood in the weeks leading up to the shooting, and the suspects were reported to be black teenagers. Zimmerman had a good reason to be following Martin because, guess what, he was someone who was unfamiliar and matched the description of the suspects in the previous break ins.

Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin)


he Retreat at Twin Lakes is a 260-unit gated townhome community in Sanford, Florida.[64][65] The population in the development, at the time of the shooting, was about 49% non-Hispanic white, 23% Hispanic (of any race), 20% black, and 5% Asian, according to Census figures.[51] Both George Zimmerman and Tracy Martin's fiancée were renting homes in the development when the shooting occurred.[27] At the time of the shooting, Martin had been staying with his father's fiancee at The Retreat.[26]

From January 1, 2011 through February 26, 2012, police were called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times.[51] During the 6 months preceding the February 26 shooting, Zimmerman called the non-emergency police line seven times. On five of those calls, Zimmerman reported suspicious looking men in the area, but never offered the men's race without first being asked by the dispatcher.[66][67][68] Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting.[69] Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood.[35]

In September 2011, the Twin Lakes residents held an organizational meeting to create a neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman was selected by neighbors as the program's coordinator, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department.[4][4][70]

Three weeks prior to the shooting, on February 2, 2012, Zimmerman called police to report a young man peering into the windows of an empty Twin Lakes home. Zimmerman was told a police car was on the way and he waited for their arrival. By the time police arrived, the suspect had fled. On February 6, workers witnessed two young black men lingering in the yard of a Twin Lakes resident around the same time her home was burgled. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. The next day police discovered the stolen laptop in the backpack of a young black man, which led to his arrest. Zimmerman identified this young man as the same person he had spotted peering into windows on February 2.[35]

Zimmerman had been licensed to carry a firearm since November 2009. In response to Zimmerman's multiple reports regarding a loose pit bull in the Twin Lakes neighborhood, a Seminole County Animal Services officer advised Zimmerman to "get a gun", according to a friend, rather than rely on pepper spray to fend off the pit bull, which on one occasion had cornered his wife.[35] Although neighborhood watch volunteers are not encouraged to carry weapons, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee acknowledged that Zimmerman had a legal right to carry his firearm on the night of the shooting.[51]

If the break-ins were being committed by white or hispanic teenagers, he would have had a legitimate reason for following said teenagers also.

It is not a crime to follow some one.

It is not a crime to report a suspicious person to the police.

It is however a crime to assault someone and bash their skull into the concrete. If the incident occured according to Zimmerman's version of the events, then he had the right of self-defense and shooting was justified.

If Martin had legitimate concerns, he could have called the police himself and the matter would have been resolved without anyone getting hurt.

Now I'm not sure if Zimmerman's version of what happened is actually accurate, but there was no witness who could credibly dispute his version of the event, and, in this country, we convict on beyond a reasonable doubt. Clearly, reasonable doubt was established here.

Defcon5
23 Jul 13,, 07:10
The term they prefer is Native Americans. Those from the subcontinent after all are Aryans :P
lol, Dont confuse us poor brown people with white uber race of Pakistan. ;)

Let me not disturb your thread, its a good discussion. Lurker's paradise

Minskaya
23 Jul 13,, 08:44
An interesting PewResearch Poll released yesterday (07.22.2013)

Big Racial Divide over Zimmerman Verdict (http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/22/big-racial-divide-over-zimmerman-verdict/)

tankie
23 Jul 13,, 19:25
Going viral , but this is interesting .where will it lead ?

Elizabeth Warren Questions 'Stand Your Ground' Laws (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/elizabeth-warren-stand-your-ground_n_3636079.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009)

gunnut
23 Jul 13,, 19:49
Going viral , but this is interesting .where will it lead ?

Elizabeth Warren Questions 'Stand Your Ground' Laws (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/elizabeth-warren-stand-your-ground_n_3636079.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009)

How did this...person...get elected to the senate? She lied about her ancestry to take advantage of racist government policies.

Dreadnought
23 Jul 13,, 21:17
CNN) -- Florida authorities have delivered all evidence related to the George Zimmerman investigation to federal officials, who are weighing whether to pursue a civil rights case.

The Sanford Police Department said it turned over all evidence, including a gun, to the Department of Justice on Monday.

Justice officials are investigating whether Zimmerman violated Trayvon Martin's civil rights when he shot the African-American teenager.

Zimmerman verdict sparks debate Zimmerman, a former neighborhood watch volunteer, was acquitted of second-degree murder and manslaughter charges on July 13 after claiming he fired in self-defense. The shooting occurred in February last year.

Zimmerman helps family out of overturned SUV

Attorney General Eric Holder has said the Justice Department will "act in a manner that is consistent with the facts and the law." Holder described Martin's shooting as " tragic, unnecessary," and said a thorough investigation will be conducted.

"Independent of the legal determination that will be made, I believe that this tragedy provides yet another opportunity for our nation to speak honestly about the complicated and emotionally charged issues that this case has raised," Holder said last week. "We must not -- as we have too often in the past -- let this opportunity pass."

Justice officials opened an investigation into the Zimmerman case last year and will include testimony from the Florida trial.

Various civil rights groups have protested nationwide to demand the Justice Department bring federal charges against Zimmerman.

A petition by the NAACP has reached 1.5 million signatures, the civil rights organization said on its website.

Feds take evidence related to Zimmerman trial, including gun - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/23/justice/zimmerman-case/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3 A+Top+Stories%29)

*Get you lawyers together George because it seems that everyone else has Civil Rights but you.

Sue them all beginning with Holder and Obama then the Feds and then retire to an island.

Doktor
23 Jul 13,, 21:24
Let me get this straight...

1,5mn ppl gathered and so it will be done?

that's what 0.5% of US population? the other 99.5% didn't care or were opposed.

Dreadnought
23 Jul 13,, 21:28
Meanwhile everyone elses kids (including ones that "could have been" yours) are still being shot, but no marches and no threatening of Federal charges for Civil Rights.......

Shootings in Chester leave one dead, several wounded - delcotimes.com (http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/07/23/news/doc51edf76b56b3d842306326.txt)

CHESTER — A weekend of violence has left one man dead, another in critical condition and several wounded.

As many as eight shootings — six with injuries — were reported within the confines of this 4.77-square-mile city, but not limited to one particular neighborhood, between 11:48 p.m. Saturday and 10:26 p.m. Sunday, according to police.

As of Monday night, investigations were ongoing by city and county detectives.

“I don’t like all this shooting in my community, as I always say,” Mayor John Linder said Monday afternoon. “It’s been relatively quiet. It had been quiet in several areas before that. We’re trying to find out what’s kicking it off.”

According to police Commissioner Joseph Bail Jr., the shooting incidents do not appear to be linked.

“It just appears to be a coincidence of time,” he said.

Bail reiterated the importance of community cooperation in not only these cases, but every other incident that involves a firearm.

“Let us do our job, but give us the information,” Bail said, adding that family and friends not only know who the gun-toting individuals are, in many cases they can help to avoid gunfire altogether with a single phone call.

“It can be anonymous,” stressed Bail.

The string of shootings began shortly before midnight Saturday when shots rang out in the 2100 block of West Seventh Street. According to authorities, Jasmarr Sabree Anderson, 20, was found on the sidewalk in front of the Benjamin Banneker Apartment complex in the 2100 block of West Seventh Street. Apparently, he had just parked his car and was walking when he was shot.

Paramedics pronounced him dead at 11:55 p.m., according to the Delaware County Medical Examiner’s office. Anderson died of a gunshot wound to the head, according to Assistant Medical Examiner Bennett Preston.

Anderson’s death marks the 11th homicide in Chester in 2013, the 18th in Delaware County.

As police were responding to the fatal shooting, Everett Tyrone Wilson, 25, of Linwood, Lower Chichester, walked into the emergency room at Crozer-Chester Medical Center, suffering from gunshot wounds to his head and shoulder, according to a prepared release issued by city police Capt. Anita Amaro.

Wilson reportedly told police he had just left Harrah’s Philadelphia and was in a car that was traveling in the 200 block of East Third Street when “he heard gunfire and felt the burning of being shot,” according to authorities.

Authorities were dispatched to Seventh and Lloyd streets for a third shooting at 12:24 a.m. Sunday. There, police found 20-year-old Khalilf Adams with a gunshot wound to the right leg. Adams, a city resident, told police he was walking along Lloyd Street when a group of men ran toward him and opened fire, but he could not identify the shooters and believes it was a random incident, police said.

Shots were fired again at about 12:28 a.m., this time at 12th and Madison streets. In this incident, 24-year-old Timothy Thompson of Chester was shot in the left arm as he left the Madison Grille, the release states.

At 12:29 a.m. Sunday — just one minute after the 12th and Madison street incident — shots were fired in the 200 block of East 13th Street. According to the release, 21-year-old Jeffrey Daniels of Chester was walking on the footbridge between the 1200 and 1300 block of Crosby Street over Interstate 95 when he was shot.

Daniels told authorities he was approached by an unknown black male, dressed all in black, who shot him then ran away, police said. He could not identity the gunman.

Several hours later, at about 1 p.m. Sunday, an unknown man opened fire on two people in the area of Sunnyside Avenue and East Mowry Street, police said. The shooter, described as a black male wearing a white T-shirt, walked up to two people standing next to a parked car and opened fire. As shots rang out, the two men scattered. No one was hit, but a bullet went through the front of a house at that location. The car the men were standing next to also was damaged by bullets. Continued...

Sunday night, at 10:26 p.m., shots rang out again, this time in the 1100 block of Thomas Street, police said. A man identified as 21-year-old Blaine Bobo of Chester was hit, according to Amaro. Several people put the injured man into a car and began driving him to the hospital, authorities said. Police and paramedics were dispatched, picked up the victim and transported him the rest of the way to Crozer.

Bobo suffered multiple gunshot wounds and was listed in critical condition on Monday.

As many as 13 shell casings were found at the scene in the Bobo case, and a car’s windows were shot about a block away at Baldwin and Thomas streets. Investigators are trying to determine if those two scenes are related.

City detectives are working double shifts to investigate the weekend shootings. Anyone with information is asked to contact Amaro at 610-447-8433 or Delaware County Criminal Investigation Division Lt. Michael Duffy at 610-891-4699.

GGTharos
23 Jul 13,, 21:41
The deed of self-defense absolves him. He doesn't have to answer to TM's parents. They got their answers in court.

The history of racism is utterly irrelevant here. Zimmerman isn't going to be paying for what people did a very very long time ago. He didn't own slaves, and he's no racist, as in fact determined at trial. Failed attempt at race-baiting here.


the good deed of Zimmerman doesn't absolve him of the killing of Trayvon Martin. He has to answer to Martin's parents. I am somewhat in contempt by some of the posts seeking to cheapen Martin's death. they have no clue of the history of racism that black people went through and the injustice that they faced and were never resolved despite overwhelming evidence.

gunnut
24 Jul 13,, 01:28
Martin violated Zimmerman's civil rights of NOT BEING PUNCHED IN THE FACE!

Go punch someone in the face for being a "cracka gay rapist" and see how the law treats you. It's called "hate crime" in addition to violating his civil rights.

Obama said "Treyvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago." Does that mean he admits to being a racist homophobe?

Dreadnought
24 Jul 13,, 20:04
Martin violated Zimmerman's civil rights of NOT BEING PUNCHED IN THE FACE!

Go punch someone in the face for being a "cracka gay rapist" and see how the law treats you. It's called "hate crime" in addition to violating his civil rights.

Obama said "Treyvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago." Does that mean he admits to being a racist homophobe?


*Heres an interesting point to be made..........

The media sucked everyone in to their pages of trash talk and hits on their websites via racial inuendo.

If you have ever applied for a job on line, if you choose to disclose your race/nationality (some do, some dont).........

There is no choice for "White-Hispanic", this was a newly coined "catch phrase" by the media to not only draw clear and imminent racial lines for everyone but as mentioned above to cash in on peoples anger and arguements.

The only choice given for "White" people is "White-non Hispanic"!

However the media labels him as "White-Hispanic".

How is it they can create their own race of people that the government itself does not even recognize on any US job list?

So as you can see once again the media is proven to have fueled much of this and no doubt cashed in on it.

If you dont believe this then go apply on line for a job and look very closely at the nationality (race) choices.

There is clearly a difference in what these web firms report to the government and a "catch phrase" created and orchestrated by the media to stoke racial bluster and make them money.

This is the kind of fools we are for not taking the media itself to task for this blatant race baiting all the while they count hits on their websites and cash rolling in.

All we hear is that Zimmerman in a "White Hispanic" but yet the governement does not recognize that race in their reporting of US job canadicies.

So, What race should we determine Zimmerman to be.....

White or Hispanic? According to government reporting he cannot be both. And you can only choose one.

IMO, Sometimes Freedom of Press deserves a punch in the mouth to keep it honest. Maybe even sued for attempting to stoke racial tensions and profit from it.

This is the kind of fools we are.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg_race-ethnicity

Directive No. 15 says that persons of mixed racial and ethnic origins should use the single category which most closely reflects the individual's recognition in his or her community. The public comments indicate that multiracial persons objected to this instruction. The commenters indicate that a single category does not reflect how they think of themselves. From their perspective, the instruction requires them to deny their full heritage and to choose between their parents. They feel they are being required to provide factually false information. They maintain that the current categories do not recognize their existence. They say they could mark "Other" where that category is provided but they feel it is demeaning. They want to identify their multiple races, but say that those who prefer to choose one of the existing broad categories could do so.

Cons of Option (f)(1):

•Collection: Visual identification of nationality groups is difficult.
(2) Alternative or additional words suggested for "Hispanic" include "Latino/Hispanic Origin," "Latino," "Latin," "Latin American," and "Hispanics from the Americas" (to exclude persons from Spain and the Philippines). Persons of Mexican ancestry did not agree on terminology for their group. Some wanted "Pre-Columbian" because of their Mestizo (Indian) background. Others disagreed saying some Mexicans have European background. Some preferred the term, "Chicano" to identify Mexican-Americans while others found the term offensive.

Pros of Option (f)(2):

•Collection: Some respondents prefer an alternative.
Cons of Option (f)(2):

•Collection: The term, "Latino," includes a diverse group of people from many national origins, races, and backgrounds. Some understand the term, "Latin" or "Latino" to include Europeans such as Italians, French, Portuguese, Romanians, and Spaniards. Cognitive research by the Census Bureau indicates some understand "Latino" as meaning from Latin America, "Hispanic" as meaning someone who speaks Spanish, and "of Spanish origin" as someone from Spain or with a distant relative who was Hispanic.
Past research results/literature review: Results from the 1990 census showed that the Hispanic population of some 22.4 million grew by 53 percent from 1980 to 1990. Immigration accounted for about half the growth. Overall, the Census Bureau considers the quality of census and survey data for Hispanic origin to be good. Nevertheless, evaluations show high nonresponse (10 percent; research shows most are not Hispanics) and misreporting (for example, some non-Hispanics report in the "Mexican-Amer." category to indicate they are American). In the 1990 census race question, two in three persons who did not mark a race circle, wrote in a response reflecting Hispanic ethnicity. Among persons who indicated in the 1990 census that they were of Hispanic origin, 52 percent marked the "White" circle and 43 percent marked the "Other race" circle. Based on evaluations of the 1980 Census and 1990 Census pretests, it appears that persons reporting "Other Spanish/Hispanic," included Brazilians and other persons of Portuguese descent who feel the term, "Hispanic," also applies to them.

*You will note that all comments from the POTUS, Sharpton etc. on down were aimed at "If he (Trayvon Martin) was "White". When Zimmerman himself cannot even be classified as "White" according to the White House itself.

How is it that John Q Public can find that out yet the ones that ARE SUPPOSED to know ignore that fact (or just too ignorant to look and except that fact plain and simple).

THUS, by ignoring it becomes a Black/White issue stoked by all including the media WHO PROFITS FROM IT and we have the division they ALL helped to create at present.

Amen!:rolleyes:

Dreadnought
25 Jul 13,, 14:47
Mistaken Identity........

George A. Zimmermann, a retired pastor in Florida, has received death threats meant for the man acquitted in the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin.

George A. Zimmermann has received death threats meant for Zimmerman
Zimmermann began getting calls immediately after Trayvon Martin's death
George Zimmerman was acquitted July 13 in the killing of Martin

Death threats were the last type of phone calls George A. Zimmermann, 78, thought he'd get after serving for 55 years as his Pennsylvania community's preacher.

And he never thought he'd be mistaken for the man headlining news these days: George Zimmerman, the Sanford, Fla., neighborhood watch volunteer acquitted in the fatal shooting of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin in February 2012.

Zimmermann, 78, retired to Deland, Fla., 16 years ago from his post at Georgetown United Methodist Church in Paradise, Pa. He says his time in Florida had been relatively peaceful and uneventful – until the phone calls began trickling in.

According to Zimmermann, he started receiving the calls immediately after Zimmerman (with one n), 29, shot the teenager.

"In the beginning, I received four or five calls," Zimmermann says. "I'd say, 'Hey, you got the wrong person. I don't live in Sanford.' And then it stopped."

Until the first night of the trial.

On June 25, Zimmermann was awakened by two calls in the middle of the night from protesters, although he says they were tame in comparison with the one he received July 14, a day after the verdict was reached.

"Hey (expletive), you're the one who killed Trayvon Martin, when your (expletive) get out, you're dead," the caller said in a message left on the answering machine. "Wherever you go, you're dead. Wherever you're trying to hide, you're dead. Watch your (expletive) move. You think you're free. You're not. You better get ready to dig a 6-foot hole, cause you know you're fixing to go," according to a report by Daytona news station WFVT.

Zimmermann, who was not home at the time of the call, recorded the message on his answering machine. He reported the incident to the Volusia County Sheriff's Office.

"I know they're venting their emotions, but I had no idea that my name would create such a hassle," he says.

Zimmermann says a couple of the calls he's received have been from out-of-state numbers, but more have been from Florida. He has changed his phone number, and since July 14, he has not received any more intimidating calls.

"They're just shooting in the dark," Zimmermann says. "It doesn' t make sense – I'm in a different town.

"But I guess when you're upset you do things without rationally thinking about it," he said.

Since Trayvon was killed, a number of individuals with unintentional ties to Zimmerman have been accosted in similar cases of mistaken identity:

• A Florida man who had never owned a cellphone before being released from prison in May 2012 was randomly assigned the number Zimmerman was using when he called 911 the night he killed Trayvon. Junior Alexander Guy, then 49, received multiple intimidating phone calls before changing his number.

• Lori Tankel of Winter Park, Fla., was forced to change her number after receiving nearly 100 calls from protesters assuming she was Zimmerman, reports Florida news station WFTV. Her cellphone number was one digit removed from Zimmerman's old number.

• Although he lived thousands of miles away from Sanford, Jorge Zimmerman of Cumberland, R.I., received nearly half a dozen or so angry messages sent to his Facebook page from individuals accusing him of murdering Trayvon, says Rhode Island news station WPRI. He has deactivated his Facebook account.

Mistaken identity brings threats to Pastor Zimmermann (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/24/man-mistaken-for-zimmerman/2582641/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+usatoday-NewsTopStories+%28News+-+Top+Stories%29)

zraver
25 Jul 13,, 15:53
And now the people he saved from a flipped vehicle have cancelled an interview out of fear that they would be targeted. Apparently the lynch mob has some 9-11 birthers in it and are claiming that the wreck was staged....

Dreadnought
25 Jul 13,, 17:27
And now the people he saved from a flipped vehicle have cancelled an interview out of fear that they would be targeted. Apparently the lynch mob has some 9-11 birthers in it and are claiming that the wreck was staged....

Nothing but the idiots drinking the cool aid.

These are people who will justify anything (including things like this) in their own mind to accomplish their own means and keep division lines "divided".

I have many really close friends for decades, but none of them would flip their vehicles over with their families in it for me to make me look good.:rolleyes:

tbm3fan
25 Jul 13,, 20:56
Nothing but the idiots drinking the cool aid.

These are people who will justify anything (including things like this) in their own mind to accomplish their own means and keep division lines "divided".

I have many really close friends for decades, but none of them would flip their vehicles over with their families in it for me to make me look good.:rolleyes:

I'll think about it if you asked nicely.

Oh, define vehicle. Will a child's little red fire truck count? It will be our secret. ;)

Alexander IV
26 Jul 13,, 04:37
In the past, our collective group-think has been rightfully accused of creating crises out of nothing, building hysteria from accidents, and aggravating tensions in our society through baseless accusations.

This was not one of those cases.

The injustice is plain to see: George Zimmerman, fueled by frustrations over a series of unsolved break-ins in his community and a wishful dream of joining law enforcement one day, sought to take justice in his own hands. He spotted a black teenager, a.k.a. someone who "looked suspicious" (read: just a minority); he pursued him against the direct instructions of the 9-1-1 operator and without any valid reason for doing so; he engaged in a heated confrontation with Martin (because Martin, shockingly, was unhappy and scared an unknown man was clearly tailing him); and suddenly he found himself in over his head. So what did Zimmerman do? He made a snap judgement to shoot and murder an innocent boy that he had decided to mess with in the first place.

To many in the American public, the outrage stems from the seemingly obvious: to profile, pursue, and confront someone is not self-defense. How, we ask, can an aggressive man make assumptions about someone based on race (once again, he was a punk up to no good based on the only evidence Zimmerman saw: he was black) and choose to follow him, but then claim that Martin was the dangerous one? A provocateur claims self-defense and we are supposed to swallow the story that this is justice in today's America?

The only reason this perverse progression of events becomes justifiable in the eyes of the court is because "stand your ground" laws leaves so much up to the discretion of the man or woman wielding the gun, regardless of how the initial confrontation began. It does not matter that Martin was innocent of any wrongdoing that night; it does not matter that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by pursing a boy against police directions; all that matters is the subjective belief of the gun wielder that he 'had' to gun down the person across from him/her. This, my friends, cannot be what justice tastes like. For those of us who see the abuse and outrage of this situation, we must not allow our resolve to change this law to dwindle- we must, in short, "stand our ground."

omon
26 Jul 13,, 04:55
lol, do you know that SYG law was not even used in the trial?? it has noting to do with the case.

get over it. move on.

Dreadnought
26 Jul 13,, 05:35
Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

zraver
26 Jul 13,, 05:38
In the past, our collective group-think has been rightfully accused of creating crises out of nothing, building hysteria from accidents, and aggravating tensions in our society through baseless accusations.

This was not one of those cases.

Yes it was


The injustice is plain to see:

yes it is, GZ was railroaded...


George Zimmerman, fueled by frustrations over a series of unsolved break-ins in his community and a wishful dream of joining law enforcement one day, sought to take justice in his own hands. He spotted a black teenager, a.k.a. someone who "looked suspicious" (read: just a minority); he pursued him against the direct instructions of the 9-1-1 operator and without any valid reason for doing so;

You will find no proof in the text of the 9-1-1 call of him being told not to follow. He did however have a valid reason, there had been a lot of break ins, he was on the neighborhood watch and knew most of his neighbors so stranger raised valid red flags.


he engaged in a heated confrontation with Martin (because Martin, shockingly, was unhappy and scared an unknown man was clearly tailing him);

NO, Trayvon Martin engaged George Zimmerman


and suddenly he found himself in over his head.

TM had a history of engaging in organized fights, was at near the peak of his natural physique, who had signs of liver damage caused by purple lean with its links to increased agression and TM's own homophobic aggressive statements including telling GZ that he was going to that night.


So what did Zimmerman do? He made a snap judgement to shoot and murder an innocent boy that he had decided to mess with in the first place.

with his nose broken, barely able to see, barely able to breathe from the blood pooling in his throat, with his head being repeatedly rammed into the concrete by a man who was telling him that he was going to die he used the last option left to him to defend his own life. Nor was TM innocent, it was TM who started the fight and even after putting a beat down on GZ, kept it going cross well past the line and well into felony territory. Motivated it turns out by what he believed to be true about GZ. TM thought GZ was gay. Thats a hate crime under both state and federal law.


To many in the American public, the outrage stems from the seemingly obvious: to profile, pursue, and confront someone is not self-defense.

The outrage is against people like you willfully ignoring the truth. GZ did not racially profile TM. Black people testified on behalf of GZ, he had gone toe to toe with the local PD over that departments mistreatment of black people and he took a black girl to his prom. Yes he pursued, but he did not confront, the 9-1-1 texts are clear, he lost sight of TM. TM jumped GZ not the other way around.


How, we ask, can an aggressive man make assumptions about someone based on race (once again, he was a punk up to no good based on the only evidence Zimmerman saw: he was black) and choose to follow him, but then claim that Martin was the dangerous one? A provocateur claims self-defense and we are supposed to swallow the story that this is justice in today's America?

I've already outlined valid reasons for being alerted by TM that have nothing to do with race. TM jumped GZ and then kept the beating going in order to pursue a hate crime. That is why he caught a bullet. A bullet by the way that with the attendant burn patterns indicate clearly that TM was leaning over GZ when the shot was fired.

Take your race baiting elsewhere.

The only reason this perverse progression of events becomes justifiable in the eyes of the court is because "stand your ground" laws leaves so much up to the discretion of the man or woman wielding the gun, regardless of how the initial confrontation began. It does not matter that Martin was innocent of any wrongdoing that night; it does not matter that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by pursing a boy against police directions; all that matters is the subjective belief of the gun wielder that he 'had' to gun down the person across from him/her. This, my friends, cannot be what justice tastes like. For those of us who see the abuse and outrage of this situation, we must not allow our resolve to change this law to dwindle- we must, in short, "stand our ground."[/QUOTE]

bonehead
26 Jul 13,, 06:33
In the past, our collective group-think has been rightfully accused of creating crises out of nothing, building hysteria from accidents, and aggravating tensions in our society through baseless accusations.

This was not one of those cases.

The injustice is plain to see: George Zimmerman, fueled by frustrations over a series of unsolved break-ins in his community and a wishful dream of joining law enforcement one day, sought to take justice in his own hands. He spotted a black teenager, a.k.a. someone who "looked suspicious" (read: just a minority); he pursued him against the direct instructions of the 9-1-1 operator and without any valid reason for doing so; he engaged in a heated confrontation with Martin (because Martin, shockingly, was unhappy and scared an unknown man was clearly tailing him); and suddenly he found himself in over his head. So what did Zimmerman do? He made a snap judgement to shoot and murder an innocent boy that he had decided to mess with in the first place.

To many in the American public, the outrage stems from the seemingly obvious: to profile, pursue, and confront someone is not self-defense. How, we ask, can an aggressive man make assumptions about someone based on race (once again, he was a punk up to no good based on the only evidence Zimmerman saw: he was black) and choose to follow him, but then claim that Martin was the dangerous one? A provocateur claims self-defense and we are supposed to swallow the story that this is justice in today's America?

The only reason this perverse progression of events becomes justifiable in the eyes of the court is because "stand your ground" laws leaves so much up to the discretion of the man or woman wielding the gun, regardless of how the initial confrontation began. It does not matter that Martin was innocent of any wrongdoing that night; it does not matter that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by pursing a boy against police directions; all that matters is the subjective belief of the gun wielder that he 'had' to gun down the person across from him/her. This, my friends, cannot be what justice tastes like. For those of us who see the abuse and outrage of this situation, we must not allow our resolve to change this law to dwindle- we must, in short, "stand our ground."



Alaxander First, welcome to the board. If you plan on sticking around stop by the introduction thread and introduce yourself. Secondly, Be prepared to back up what you post. Otherwise, you will get your ass handed to you nine ways to Sunday.



Secondly, I ask what would you do when some crazed person was committing a felony assault on you. Remember that you are already bloody/broken nosed and he is still on top of you bashing your head into the ground.

Doktor
26 Jul 13,, 06:36
... and don't wonder BH's sanity.

He used "secondly" twice on purpose.

First "secondly" is for the firstly, second "secondly" is for the secondly thought :pop:

Parihaka
26 Jul 13,, 07:58
George Zimmerman, fueled by frustrations over a series of unsolved break-ins in his community and a wishful dream of joining law enforcement one day, sought to take justice in his own hands. Your evidence for this?

He spotted a black teenager, a.k.a. someone who "looked suspicious" (read: just a minority); You are aware
1: he himself comes from a minority, namely hispanic and
2: He was raised with two black siblings, both of whom vouch for his character and mentored black children amongst others?


he pursued him against the direct instructions of the 9-1-1 operator
false

he engaged in a heated confrontation with Martin Where did you here that?

and suddenly he found himself in over his head. True. Well to be literal, he suddenly found himself having the back of his head repeatedly pounded into concrete. So much for your understanding of what actually transpired rather than what your chosen media tell you. I obviously am not an American nor do I live in America. If it's easy for me to find out the facts of the case, why haven't you?

bonehead
26 Jul 13,, 10:11
... and don't wonder BH's sanity.

He used "secondly" twice on purpose.

First "secondly" is for the firstly, second "secondly" is for the secondly thought :pop:

Holding up three fingers.... "Arg I have done that twice now":slap:

omon
26 Jul 13,, 15:12
...
He used "secondly" twice on purpose.
:
or there is simpler explanation, his train of thoughts never left the depot.

btw, he also mentioned about SYG law, that has nothing to do with the case.

yep, his firebox never seen a spark.

Dreadnought
26 Jul 13,, 15:42
MIAMI (AP) - A juror says she feels like she let Trayvon Martin's parents down by agreeing to acquit George Zimmerman in the teen's fatal shooting.

In a taped interview aired Friday on ABC's "Good Morning America," juror B29 said jurors couldn't find enough evidence under Florida law to convict the neighborhood watch volunteer in the February 2012 death.

The juror agreed to let ABC show her face and use her first name, Maddy. She says she "fought to the end" but stands by the verdict returned earlier this month by the six-member, all-woman jury.

The 36-year-old Puerto Rican mother says the decision was difficult.

But the juror said she wants Martin's mother to know that her son will always be in her heart.

iWon News - Juror feels she let down Trayvon Martin's parents (http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20130726/DA7P68681.html)

gunnut
26 Jul 13,, 21:56
Your evidence for this?
You are aware
1: he himself comes from a minority, namely hispanic and
2: He was raised with two black siblings, both of whom vouch for his character and mentored black children amongst others?


false
Where did you here that?
True. Well to be literal, he suddenly found himself having the back of his head repeatedly pounded into concrete. So much for your understanding of what actually transpired rather than what your chosen media tell you. I obviously am not an American nor do I live in America. If it's easy for me to find out the facts of the case, why haven't you?

You guys are arguing with a bot...:biggrin:

bonehead
27 Jul 13,, 01:07
You guys are arguing with a bot...:biggrin:

Geesh. Try to throw some fresh meat into the WAB grinder and it turns out to be some meatless drivel.

Blademaster
27 Jul 13,, 18:20
Hold on there, Hitesh. You said TM's past actions should not be of concern to this case. Then should it not be also of historic racism?

If only it was that easy. remember Eugene till. that is not the only one. So the posts mocking racism is rather in poor taste and very contemptible because they ignore the black community's experiences with murder cases resulting in not guilty verdicts when the evidence was clear.

And some of the jurors admitted that they felt that Zimmerman got away with murder.

Blademaster
27 Jul 13,, 18:29
Martin violated Zimmerman's civil rights of NOT BEING PUNCHED IN THE FACE!

Go punch someone in the face for being a "cracka gay rapist" and see how the law treats you. It's called "hate crime" in addition to violating his civil rights.

Obama said "Treyvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago." Does that mean he admits to being a racist homophobe?


what about travyin martin's right of not being stalked by an unknown guy carrying a gun? His rights were violated first so George Zimmerman lost all of his rights of not being punched in the face.

based on your argument, I can stalk you all I want carrying a gun causing you all sort of fear and stuff and when you try to defend yourself, I am gonna claim self defence and cop your ass. How do you feel about that?

Shek
27 Jul 13,, 19:02
what about travyin martin's right of not being stalked by an unknown guy carrying a gun? His rights were violated first so George Zimmerman lost all of his rights of not being punched in the face.

based on your argument, I can stalk you all I want carrying a gun causing you all sort of fear and stuff and when you try to defend yourself, I am gonna claim self defence and cop your ass. How do you feel about that?

GZ had a permit to carry the gun, and the fact that his head was banged against the sidewalk meant that he was at the sidewalk.

So, please explain to me how legally carrying a gun while on the sidewalk in his own neighborhood is impermissible and violated TM's rights?

bonehead
27 Jul 13,, 21:37
what about travyin martin's right of not being stalked by an unknown guy carrying a gun? His rights were violated first so George Zimmerman lost all of his rights of not being punched in the face.

based on your argument, I can stalk you all I want carrying a gun causing you all sort of fear and stuff and when you try to defend yourself, I am gonna claim self defence and cop your ass. How do you feel about that?

You do understand that the cops were on the way. All Zimmerman had to keep Trayvon in eyesight so Zimmerman had no need for a physical confrontation. Trayvon could have simply stopped and waited for them to clear everything up. Trayvon had time to call other people so clearly he had time to call the cops himself. Had he done so not only would he be alive today but any rights violations could have been addressed in a more civil fashion.

Blademaster
28 Jul 13,, 16:55
GZ had a permit to carry the gun, and the fact that his head was banged against the sidewalk meant that he was at the sidewalk.

So, please explain to me how legally carrying a gun while on the sidewalk in his own neighborhood is impermissible and violated TM's rights?

So carry a gun on the sidewalk while stalking somebody is permissible? So far we have only heard Zimmerman's side of the story, not TM's side because he's dead and can't talk. But you can infer from the testimony of TM's friend, that TM was in fear for his life and that somebody was following him. That is stalking right there.

Blademaster
28 Jul 13,, 16:56
You do understand that the cops were on the way. All Zimmerman had to keep Trayvon in eyesight so Zimmerman had no need for a physical confrontation. Trayvon could have simply stopped and waited for them to clear everything up. Trayvon had time to call other people so clearly he had time to call the cops himself. Had he done so not only would he be alive today but any rights violations could have been addressed in a more civil fashion.

That's what Zimmerman says. What if Zimmerman had confronted him? You have not heard TM's side of the story at all because he's DEAD and cannot talk.

bonehead
28 Jul 13,, 17:30
That's what Zimmerman says. What if Zimmerman had confronted him? You have not heard TM's side of the story at all because he's DEAD and cannot talk.

The whole thing was investigated and went to court. Zimmerman's testimony could not be refuted. On the other side Trayvon was not cornered, was more athletic and could have easily escaped. He also called friends instead of cops. That really does not sound like someone who was in fear of his life.

GGTharos
29 Jul 13,, 05:43
That is a false claim of stalking. Zimmerman didn't do anything illegal. He wanted to know who's hanging out in his neighborhood. He did not persistently follow or harass TM, regardless of how much you want it to be so. That TM felt slightly threatened - well, you can feel threatened when someone's walking the same path as you are. It was shown that GZ had no intent to stalk or harm anyone, he was just doing what a neighborhood watch captain is supposed to do: Report suspicious people, watch their behavior.

Something similar happened recently where a black man killed a white teen. The man was acquitted by virtue of self-defense. Where's your outrage for that poor teen?



So carry a gun on the sidewalk while stalking somebody is permissible? So far we have only heard Zimmerman's side of the story, not TM's side because he's dead and can't talk. But you can infer from the testimony of TM's friend, that TM was in fear for his life and that somebody was following him. That is stalking right there.

Blademaster
30 Jul 13,, 01:02
That is a false claim of stalking. Zimmerman didn't do anything illegal. He wanted to know who's hanging out in his neighborhood. He did not persistently follow or harass TM, regardless of how much you want it to be so. That TM felt slightly threatened - well, you can feel threatened when someone's walking the same path as you are. It was shown that GZ had no intent to stalk or harm anyone, he was just doing what a neighborhood watch captain is supposed to do: Report suspicious people, watch their behavior.

Something similar happened recently where a black man killed a white teen. The man was acquitted by virtue of self-defense. Where's your outrage for that poor teen?

Show me that piece of news. I have never heard of it.

Then how do you explain the circumstances of a young teenager returning home from buying a bag of candy ending up dead? Zimmerman created that situation.

zraver
30 Jul 13,, 01:24
Show me that piece of news. I have never heard of it.

Then how do you explain the circumstances of a young teenager returning home from buying a bag of candy ending up dead? Zimmerman created that situation.

snopes.com: Roderick Scott (http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/roderickscott.asp)

Zimmerman told the 9-1-1 operator he lost sight of TM, several minutes later is when the fight broke out.

Explain away the physical evidence

1. injuries to the front and back of GZ head
2. burn pattern on the hoodie that had to have been done with the hoodie hanging 2-4" away from the body implying that TM was leaning over GZ when shot at close range
3. grass found on the back of GZ's clothes

Now explain away the well established legal precedents

1. even if it started as legit self defense, when a person pursues combat (chasing or beating on someone who is down) it turns into assault/
2. Beating someones head into the concrete is felony assault with purpose of injury in all 50 states.
3. Under the reasonable man standard a person being beat on the ground suffering from the effects of a broken nose is entitled to fear for their life.

Finally, he was not returning home with a bag of candy and some iced tea, he was coming home with two of the three ingredients for a drug cocktail as well as showing sings of chronic use of the same cocktail via autopsy. He had a history of organized fights, pictures of him with a gun and was kicked out of school repeatedly. In addition the school, district reported stolen property he was caught with as found property...

This was not a nice guy but a person with a history of violence, drug abuse and criminal behavior.

If the Martin's file suit, the truth about TM will come out in ever less flattering colors and GZ will win again. Which may be why they haven't filed suit.... they know exactly what will be revealed.

gunnut
30 Jul 13,, 02:56
what about travyin martin's right of not being stalked by an unknown guy

He was being followed, but then he lost him (Zimmerman). He (Martin) then re-initiated contact. This was on Martin, not Zimmerman.


carrying a gun?

Did Martin know about this fact? I bet he didn't. Would you go outside your house to confront a stranger carrying a gun without being armed yourself?


His rights were violated first

Please cite the law which prohibits Zimmerman from following Martin, or anyone.


so George Zimmerman lost all of his rights of not being punched in the face.

Have you ever punched a guy whom you suspect is following you?


based on your argument, I can stalk you all I want carrying a gun causing you all sort of fear and stuff and when you try to defend yourself, I am gonna claim self defence and cop your ass. How do you feel about that?

I'd go back home and call the police.

Gun Grape
30 Jul 13,, 02:58
Have you ever punched a guy whom you suspect is following you?
.

yes :biggrin:

gunnut
30 Jul 13,, 03:10
So carry a gun on the sidewalk while stalking somebody is permissible?

Yes, carrying a gun while following someone is legal. If you disagree, the please cite the law that bans people from carrying a gun while following people.


So far we have only heard Zimmerman's side of the story, not TM's side because he's dead and can't talk. But you can infer from the testimony of TM's friend, that TM was in fear for his life and that somebody was following him. That is stalking right there.

Martin was so in fear for his life that he actively sought out the man whome he KNEW was carrying a gun and initiated hand-to-hand combat with. :rolleyes:

You assume Martin was afraid. But facts do not support you.

Martin initiated combat by ambushing the man whom he is afraid of, but that of course is totally irrelevent.

gunnut
30 Jul 13,, 03:10
yes :biggrin:

Please do tell. :)

Gun Grape
30 Jul 13,, 03:13
here is the problem I have with the case. Zimmerman was no where beat up enough to fear for his life. I've looked worse in fights that I've won. Wish I had known that I could shoot them and end the fight earlier.

He had a broke nose and 2 cuts to the back of his head.

No bruising to the jaw, black eye,or cuts to the face. No scratch marks where he was supposedly being held and head pounded into the sidewalk. Not any blood in the police video And while he wasn't able to get the kid off him, he was able to reach and get his gun. Which means he had some leverage and use of his arms.

"I don't know how to fight" is no excuse for killing someone. Most of the men a work say the same thing. Good thing the jury was all women.

For the record, I have a huge nose. Its the first thing that gets hit in a fight. Been broke 5 times never once did I think it was going to kill me nor did it take me out of the fight.

gunnut
30 Jul 13,, 03:19
But you have been in a fight, or fights. Maybe Zimmerman has never been in a fight. Being on the ground, getting hit, with a broken nose, made him fear for his life. He didn't know what to expect.

I have never been in a fight as an adult. I hope I never do. If I were in a fight that I did not initiate, and carried a gun, put on the ground with a broken nose, I would be in fear of my life and shoot the guy dead too.

Gun Grape
30 Jul 13,, 03:36
maybe its too much time in the military. I look at using a gun needing to follow the rules of deadly force. A gun is used as a last resort. When all other means have been exhausted.

"He punched me in the nose and it made me afraid" doesn't rise to a killing offence. I grant exceptions for women.

There were no marks on Martin either. Zimmerman went to his gun first. Didn't even throw a punch. If it had been a military court, he would have been locked away for a while.

Parihaka
30 Jul 13,, 03:37
personally I've had my nose broken twice in a fight. Both times it made me light headed and disoriented. I kept my feet both times but I was very much in survival mode, simply trying to avoid and dodge until my head cleared, which took a good thirty seconds to be even barely capable both times. I'm not disagreeing with GG though: the whole resort-to-gun thing is way alien to me.

tbm3fan
30 Jul 13,, 04:33
I believe Parihaka is closer to the mark.

Way back in 1975 I had a party in the condo I lived in down in San Diego. Many friends there including one from high school Class of 71. This guy would always be joking, somewhat, that he could take me if he had to. Fine, whatever, Ron. At the party his younger brother is having some issue with my younger brother and I separate them. Tell them not in the condo I am responsible for.

Walk into my bedroom and turn around to see Ron followed me. I am 6'1" and 160 lbs. while Ron is 5'10" 200 lbs. He pushes me hard enough to knock me down while saying something about his brother. I do not pause to think about things as I just get up hit him with a right cross so fast he couldn't react. In an instant there were blood splatters all over the bedroom walls. He staggered backwards and out of the room. Went down 10 stairs to the entry way where he put his head into the wall to smash the drywall. Yep, brilliant. I jumped down past all the stairs and caught him at the front door to then smash his head into the door several times. Eventually pulled off by two offensive lineman friends at 6'6" and combined 590 lbs. Ron took 30-40 stitches depending who I heard from. Ron staggered out the door never to be seen again by me. We were both 22 years old.

That one punch completely disoriented him for awhile like Parihaka mentions.

GGTharos
30 Jul 13,, 04:44
here is the problem I have with the case. Zimmerman was no where beat up enough to fear for his life. I've looked worse in fights that I've won. Wish I had known that I could shoot them and end the fight earlier.

This is a false premise. Allegedly, TM said 'now you're gonna die'. GZ had no reason to not believe this at that point. Finally, where I live two people died of being punched in the head/having their head smashed against something. They didn't look like they had life-threatening injuries either. There's no internal 'injury meter' that tells you you're about to hit that threshold or that you've passed it. You can't rely on counting cuts (not that you can count them) and taking stock of injuries in such a split-second decision making situation. The only thing you know is that you're not dead yet.


No bruising to the jaw, black eye,or cuts to the face. No scratch marks where he was supposedly being held and head pounded into the sidewalk. Not any blood in the police video.

None of this is required to have you dead of head injury.


"I don't know how to fight" is no excuse for killing someone.

No, violent assault is. Sorry, but 'he was a sissy' is a totally meaningless, BS macho concept where self defense with deadly force is involved. I'm sure more than one thread of 'macho man wins darwin award' must have been posted somewhere in this very forum.


For the record, I have a huge nose. Its the first thing that gets hit in a fight. Been broke 5 times never once did I think it was going to kill me nor did it take me out of the fight.

Your experience is irrelevant to the law. And all that really says is that you don't know how easily you can get killed by head injuries. Even the paramedics don't necessarily know you're dying. Your nerve cells just give up a while later and that's all she wrote. The moment this process starts, you're walking dead. You might be able to walk, talk, think, laugh, complain about pain or dizziness, and soon you'll die - and there is nothing that can stop it.

zraver
30 Jul 13,, 05:21
. Finally, where I live two people died of being punched in the head/having their head smashed against something. They didn't look like they had life-threatening injuries either. There's no internal 'injury meter' that tells you you're about to hit that threshold or that you've passed it. You can't rely on counting cuts (not that you can count them) and taking stock of injuries in such a split-second decision making situation. The only thing you know is that you're not dead yet.

Didn't a high school soccer ref just die of a single punch to the head?



No, violent assault is.

That is the key right there, once Zimmerman was down and martin was on top beating him it became felony assault and justified the shooting. It does not matter what happened before that moment since there is zero Zimmerman had not himself committed a violent felony to warrant such behavior.

zraver
30 Jul 13,, 05:33
maybe its too much time in the military. I look at using a gun needing to follow the rules of deadly force. A gun is used as a last resort. When all other means have been exhausted.

Even using an escalation of force continuum it was a legal shoot.


"He punched me in the nose and it made me afraid" doesn't rise to a killing offence. I grant exceptions for women.

Except thats not what happened. He broke GZ's nose and then straddled him beating his head into the concrete telling GZ he was going to die...


There were no marks on Martin either. Zimmerman went to his gun first. Didn't even throw a punch. If it had been a military court, he would have been locked away for a while.

First, GZ did not go to his gun first. He got struck in the head at least 7 times before he fired a shot. He had a broken nose and at least 6 cuts and abrasions to the back of his head. GZ had been physically disabled, was obviously over-matched physically (surprise, skill, speed, age what ever) for what ever reason and the next and right escalation was the gun. He wasn't a trained ground fighter, his senses were scrambled, he was being told he was going to die and the only tool of escalation he had was the gun. As a victim of a felony assault he was entitled to self defense. No non-witch hunt court in our country would find him guilty under any set of laws we have.

Gun Grape
30 Jul 13,, 05:36
Finally, where I live two people died of being punched in the head/having their head smashed against something.

Big difference in getting punched and having your head smashed against something. People get hit in the head all the time and don't die. If not boxers/MMA fighters would have a very short career. Not to mention all the full contact Unarmed Combat training people in the military do on a daily basis. (2 of the 5 times I broke my nose).

People die of stuff every day. You knew 2 people that died from head injuries. I was at a buddys house one time, having a cookout. Standing around BSing with the guest. One guy was sitting in a chair and his glass fell out of his hand (non alcoholic). He had bleed to death from a ruptured spleen. Shit happens



No, violent assault is. Sorry, but 'he was a sissy' is a totally meaningless, BS macho concept where self defense with deadly force is involved.

It has nothing to do with "Macho" I was a pretty average size guy 5" 10", 155lbs. I tried to stay out of fights as often as possible. Talked my way out of way more than I got into.

Not sure how old you are. I'm 50. When I grew up, just about everyone took a gun to school. Left it in the vehicle but there was prime hunting to be done before and after school. And everyone carried a pocket knife. Yet no one thought of shooting or stabbing someone during a fight. And the adults did the same. Gun in vehicle, knife in pocket. Even drunk and stupid in a bar parking lot 99% of the fights never saw either pulled, much less used.

That's where my mindset comes from.



Your experience is irrelevant to the law.

Never said it was


And all that really says is that you don't know how easily you can get killed by head injuries. Even the paramedics don't necessarily know you're dying. Your nerve cells just give up a while later and that's all she wrote. The moment this process starts, you're walking dead. You might be able to walk, talk, think, laugh, complain about pain or dizziness, and soon you'll die - and there is nothing that can stop it.

I was a EMT in the mid 80s. And I've been on the local S&R team for about 10 years. Also I know a little about how easy it is to get killed/die. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to base all of my actions or live in fear of dying.

Gun Grape
30 Jul 13,, 05:49
Except thats not what happened. He broke GZ's nose and then straddled him beating his head into the concrete telling GZ he was going to die...

Funny the paramedics on the scene didn't note the broke nose. It wasn't till later that his lawyer claimed that.




First, GZ did not go to his gun first. He got struck in the head at least 7 times before he fired a shot. He had a broken nose and at least 6 cuts and abrasions to the back of his head. GZ had been physically disabled, was obviously over-matched physically (surprise, skill, speed, age what ever) for what ever reason and the next and right escalation was the gun. He wasn't a trained ground fighter, his senses were scrambled, he was being told he was going to die and the only tool of escalation he had was the gun. As a victim of a felony assault he was entitled to self defense. No non-witch hunt court in our country would find him guilty under any set of laws we have.

Normally if someone had their head smashed against something multiple times, we would transport to the hospital. And in Florida I can make you go if I suspect that you may be disoriented.
Wonder why the Paramedics on scene didn't do that. Or the nurse at the jail?

And it all happened in less than 2 min according to the dispatch and arrival times from the police report.

But we only know what Zimmerman claims happened. Cause he killed the other witness. And dead men tell no tales.

Im gonna believe what I believe and you will what you believe. Nothing will change either opinion

bonehead
30 Jul 13,, 05:51
With all due respect Gun Grape, I don't think comparing a man on the street to a Marine is fair. Those are two completely different animals.

gunnut
30 Jul 13,, 07:46
Big difference in getting punched and having your head smashed against something. People get hit in the head all the time and don't die. If not boxers/MMA fighters would have a very short career. Not to mention all the full contact Unarmed Combat training people in the military do on a daily basis. (2 of the 5 times I broke my nose).

Yeah but they weren't jumped and were prepared to fight. They were also trained to fight. There's a big difference between fighting and getting sucker punched.


People die of stuff every day. You knew 2 people that died from head injuries. I was at a buddys house one time, having a cookout. Standing around BSing with the guest. One guy was sitting in a chair and his glass fell out of his hand (non alcoholic). He had bleed to death from a ruptured spleen. Shit happens

Well, there you go. People die every single day from all sorts of stuff. Martin died from jumping a guy with a gun. The moral of the story should be "don't pick a fight in a state with 'shall issue' carry law, the guy just might have a gun on him." If you want to pick a fight, do it in San Francisco or New York. Most likely those people are unarmed.


It has nothing to do with "Macho" I was a pretty average size guy 5" 10", 155lbs. I tried to stay out of fights as often as possible. Talked my way out of way more than I got into.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with macho in Zimmerman's case. If it did, then he would have fought. Shooting someone in a fight is not macho. Sucker punch someone and then continue to beat him while he was down is not macho.


Not sure how old you are. I'm 50. When I grew up, just about everyone took a gun to school. Left it in the vehicle but there was prime hunting to be done before and after school. And everyone carried a pocket knife. Yet no one thought of shooting or stabbing someone during a fight. And the adults did the same. Gun in vehicle, knife in pocket. Even drunk and stupid in a bar parking lot 99% of the fights never saw either pulled, much less used.

That's where my mindset comes from.

People back then had respect for firearms. Not today. Guns were either evil or macho, thanks to liberals and Hollywood. Funny how Hollywood is liberal yet they like to glorify something they despise.

troung
31 Jul 13,, 00:20
Goldberg: Bending the Trayvon Martin tragedy to fit
How the supposedly objective media have not only sensationalized a tragedy but at times appeared to deliberately bend the facts to fit a desired story line.
Goldberg: Bending the Trayvon Martin tragedy to fit - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-goldberg-trayvon-martin-media-20130730,0,4602272.column)

George Zimmerman

George Zimmerman, seen here on the 20th day of his trial for second-degree murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, was acquitted on all charges. (Joe Burbank / EPA)
By Jonah Goldberg

July 30, 2013

I never thought the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman case deserved nearly the attention it got. But reasonable people can disagree about that. What strikes me as unconscionable, however, is the way the supposedly objective media have not only sensationalized a tragedy but at times appear to deliberately bend the facts to fit a desired story line. Maybe it started with the use of pictures of a younger Martin or with the sudden embrace of the term "white Hispanic" to describe Zimmerman in order to more easily paint him as a racist.

NBC News was the most egregious offender on this score. Producers edited Zimmerman's 911 call to make it sound as if he were targeting Martin because of his race. The "Today" show ran audio of Zimmerman saying, "This guy looks like he's up to no good … he looks black." Those ellipses hide the fact Zimmerman said "he looks black" only after the operator asked him to describe Martin. (NBC has apologized, and Zimmerman is suing.)

Any hope that the editorializing would end with the trial was naive. National Public Radio recently profiled Sybrina Fulton, Martin's mother. In response to the tragedy and the trial, Fulton has become a civil rights activist, NPR reported.

Jonah Goldberg
Bio | E-mail | Recent columns
On race, President Obama can unite us On race, President Obama can unite us
Trayvon Martin, an American son Trayvon Martin, an American son
Violent protests don't honor Trayvon Martin Violent protests don't honor Trayvon Martin
Why try George Zimmerman? Why try George Zimmerman?

VIDEO: Obama reflects on race, says 'Trayvon Martin could have been me'

It was a deferential piece, and understandably so. Who wants to add to the woman's pain? But there's a difference between deference and advocacy. In a speech to the National Urban League, Fulton said her son was killed "all because of a law, a law that has prevented the person who shot and killed my son to be held accountable and to pay for this awful crime."

And how did NPR's Greg Allen put that statement in context? He told listeners: "Fulton is one of many pushing for a repeal of Florida's 'stand your ground' law." He noted that sit-ins have been staged but that the Florida governor remains "unmoved." And that was it.

Allen then went on to report that one of the jurors told ABC News that "George Zimmerman literally got away with murder." We owe that revelation to ABC News' interview with Juror B29, a.k.a. "Maddy." The sole nonwhite juror in the case, Maddy made that remark to ABC's Robin Roberts. The quote went viral across electronic and print media.

The only problem: It's not clear that's what she thinks. As Will Saletan of Slate magazine notes, the video was artfully edited to make it appear as if Maddy generated this thought on her own. But when you watch an unedited segment, she's repeating back a statement by Roberts, and ABC News was happy to let the misinterpretation stand.

Letting misinterpretations stand is the hallmark of the media's coverage of this story. For instance, nowhere in NPR's report did Allen mention that Zimmerman's defense team never mentioned Florida's "stand your ground" law. They argued traditional self-defense. The decision not to arrest Zimmerman in the first place wasn't about that law either, despite widespread insistence that it was.

Much has been made of the fact that the judge's instructions to the jury included the phrase "right to stand his ground," without noting that is part of a standard jury instruction. As prosecutor John Guy declared, "This case is not about standing your ground."

This is not to say that "stand your ground" laws have no conceivable bearing on the Zimmerman case. Thoughtful critics of such laws, including President Obama, worry that they might create a climate in which people are too quick to resort to deadly force.

But that is an airy justification for the media to treat the law as if it were central to the whole controversy. Is it conceivable that NPR would let, say, a gun rights activist's wildly tendentious interpretation of a law stand without some explanation or context? Why should opponents of "stand your ground" laws get different treatment?

I think part of the answer is that the media and civil rights groups want a consolation prize. They didn't get the verdict — or the story line — they wanted. But they need to get something positive out of this. I certainly understand why Trayvon Martin's family feels that way. I fail to see why the media should so eagerly oblige.

jgoldberg@latimescolumnists.com

.......

gunnut
31 Jul 13,, 02:42
:biggrin:

Dreadnought
01 Aug 13,, 15:57
I knew it would only be a matter of time.....:rolleyes:

By GARY FINEOUT

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) - Florida Gov. Rick Scott on Wednesday demanded an apology from longtime civil rights activist Jesse Jackson for comparing the state's struggle with the Trayvon Martin case to the civil rights clashes with police during the 1960s in Selma, Ala.

Jackson joined the protest this week and during his remarks called the environment in Florida "toxic." He linked Scott to former Alabama Gov. George Wallace by pointing out that Southern governors have "changed their minds" about their stances on civil rights. While he was governor, Wallace stood in the door at the University of Alabama to try to block the entry of two black students.

In his remarks Jackson said the protest would continue to mount because "this is the Selma of our time."

Scott in a release blasted Jackson's comments as "reckless" and "divisive" and said that he should apologize to residents.


"It is unfortunate that he would come to Florida to insult Floridians and divide our state at a time when we are striving for unity and healing," Scott said.

Scott also criticized Jackson for labeling Florida an "apartheid state" although Jackson made that comment previously and not while he was in Tallahassee.

But Jackson - who spent Tuesday night with protesters at the state Capitol - stuck by his comments Wednesday and said he wanted to change the disparities that exist in the state instead of resorting to "name calling."The flurry between the Republican governor and Jackson marked one of the few reactions from Scott since a group began occupying the Capitol after George Zimmerman was acquitted on July 13 in the shooting death of Martin. Protesters have said they will not leave until Scott calls a special session to have legislators change the state's "stand your ground" law and address other issues such as racial profiling.

Scott, who did meet once with protest leaders, has steadfastly refused to call a session. Since then, the protest has continued and attracted national media attention and earned the support of celebrities such as Harry Belafonte. During most of that time Scott has been traveling across the state.

Scott's criticism was quickly echoed by other Republicans including newly elected legislator Mike Hill. Hill, R-Pensacola, who is the only black GOP member of the Legislature.

"When Jackson uses language that describes us as an apartheid state and compares our governor to one of history's most notorious bigots, he is either hopelessly out of touch or purposefully dishonest," said Hill. Hill also called Jackson's comments a "disgrace."But Jackson defended his remarks in an interview with The Associated Press, ticking off a list of conditions in the state that he said made it "apartheid-like."

He cited the state's voting laws, statistics on juvenile criminals and the fact that that more than 40 percent of Florida's prison population is black while making up just 17 percent of the state's population.

"In the gaps between blacks and whites, one sees apartheid-like conditions," Jackson said.

But Jackson added that he doesn't want to fight the governor, but he would prefer to work with him to change policies like the "stand your ground" law that he said "incentivizes" violence.

Zimmerman claimed self-defense in shooting the 17-year-old unarmed Miami teenager during a fight. Martin's supporters say Zimmerman profiled and followed him because Martin was black. Zimmerman identifies himself as Hispanic.

Jackson cited the case of Marissa Alexander as an example of how the law has been applied unequally. Alexander, who is from Jacksonville, was sentenced to 20 years in prison for firing a bullet at a wall to scare off her husband when she felt he was threatening her. A judge refused to let her use a "stand your ground" defense.

"If he comes back to work I will talk to him face to face," Jackson said of the governor. "I'm interested in a resolution, not a fight."

The protest at the Capitol and organized by a group called the Dream Defenders started on July 16 and so far the state has spent more than $90,000 in overtime costs on Capitol security costs. Protesters are allowed to come and go during the day, but they must remain in a designated area in the hallways after hours.

The group this week their own mock session in the Old Capitol. They also are trying to urge 32 legislators to ask for a special session. Under Florida law, if 32 legislators make that demand, then the Department of State must poll the Legislature. If three-fifths of lawmakers agree, then a special session must be called.

Right now Republican leaders in the Florida Legislature remain opposed to a special session.

Senate President Don Gaetz earlier this week that while he understands that some people are "frustrated" with the verdict that doesn't mean the law should be changed.

"In our system, a verdict is not then referred to a referendum of the people who are interested in the issue or who are passionate about the issue," Gaetz said. "A verdict is a verdict."

iWon News - Fla. Gov. criticizes Jesse Jackson over comments (http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20130801/DA7SQMAO2.html)


"he is either hopelessly out of touch or purposefully dishonest,"

I would settle for both.;)

zraver
01 Aug 13,, 17:14
"he is either hopelessly out of touch or purposefully dishonest,"

I would settle for both.;)

i'll second that

tbm3fan
01 Aug 13,, 19:01
Gaetz said. "A verdict is a verdict."

What a novel idea...

Parihaka
01 Aug 13,, 20:28
He's not out of touch. He wants to work with the governor. That's victim-speak for he want's money or he'll continue to slander the governor and the state.

gunnut
03 Aug 13,, 02:30
He's not out of touch. He wants to work with the governor. That's victim-speak for he want's money or he'll continue to slander the governor and the state.

Jackson made a stink about Mitsubishi not promoting "minority" workers fast enough. This was a few years ago. Mitsubishi promised to correct the matter and also, in a totally unrelated move, made a sizable contribution to Jesse's "Rainbow Coalition."

Jackson is a race peddler and a racketeer. He's a thug in a suit. When was the last time he pastored a church?

Dreadnought
03 Aug 13,, 17:10
Jackson made a stink about Mitsubishi not promoting "minority" workers fast enough. This was a few years ago. Mitsubishi promised to correct the matter and also, in a totally unrelated move, made a sizable contribution to Jesse's "Rainbow Coalition."

Jackson is a race peddler and a racketeer. He's a thug in a suit. When was the last time he pastored a church?

When was the last time he preached anything but the black/white divide?

Neither he nor Sharpton could even hold a candle to Dr Martin Luther King.

All they have done was take Kings legacy and bastardize it for their own selfish purposes.

Dreadnought
11 Nov 13,, 21:29
This is what happens when a racist asshole opens his mouth before doing his homework.................

Spike Lee Sued Over George Zimmerman Tweet
By Colleen Curry

PostsBy Colleen Curry | ABC News Blogs – 2 hours 28 minutes agoEmail 0Share 74Tweet0Share0PrintSpike Lee Sued Over George Zimmerman Tweet (ABC News)

An elderly Florida couple who found themselves caught in the center of the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case last year has filed a lawsuit against film director Spike Lee for retweeting information that mistook their home for Zimmerman's.

Lee sent a Twitter message last year to his 240,000 followers with an address that he thought belonged to Zimmerman, who was accused of killing the unarmed teenager Martin.


But the address was actually that of Elaine and David McClain of Sanford, Fla., both in their early 70s, whose home became the focal point of online vitriol aimed at Zimmerman, who also lived in Sanford.

Now the McClains have accused Lee of negligence in a lawsuit filed in Florida and posted by The Smoking Gun.

The original source of the misinformation was a man in California, who tweeted the address to various celebrities, according to the lawsuit.

Lee then retweeted to his followers with the same address, which was repeated hundreds of times with threatening messages.

The McClains told Orlando, Fla., news station WKMG-TV that the wife's youngest son's name is George Zimmerman but he had no relation to the Zimmerman involved in the case and had not lived at the home in years. They have not sued anyone else.

The McClains said in their lawsuit that they feared for their lives after their address was broadcast on Lee's account. They are seeking at least $15,000 in damages.

Lee previously settled with the couple over the tweet. The couples' attorney, Matt Morgan, told the Los Angeles Times in March 2012 that Lee called the McClains to apologize and compensated them.

But the couple's lawsuit now alleges that the threats continued throughout Zimmerman's 2013 trial. Morgan did not return calls for comment.

Neither the McClains nor Lee's representatives have returned ABC News' request for comments.

Zimmerman was acquitted of murder for Martin's death in July.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/29/10921391-spike-lee-apologizes-to-florida-couple-agrees-to-pay-for-retweeting-their-address

*Maybe he should tweet to his 240,000 followers that hes a racist asshole that doesnt do his homework before shooting his mouth off. D'Bag!

TopHatter
11 Nov 13,, 23:18
Spike Lee encouraging and outright enabling vigilantism certainly did help the situation didn't it.