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Minskaya
24 Jun 13,, 16:16
Pakistani premier says Musharraf to face trial for treason
The Associated Press
Published Monday, June 24, 2013

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan -- Pakistan's prime minister said Monday that the government plans to put the military ruler who ousted him in a coup over a decade ago on trial for treason, setting up a possible clash with the country's powerful army. Sharif said the government agrees with the Supreme Court's decision that Musharraf committed treason under Article 6 of the constitution when he declared a state of emergency in 2007 and suspended the constitution. "The prime minister is under oath to protect, preserve and defend the constitution and it is implicit in his oath that his government ensures that persons guilty of acts under Article 6 are brought to justice," Sharif said in parliament. "Musharraf has to answer for all his deeds in court," Sharif said in a separate part of the speech.

Musharraf would be the first military ruler tried for treason in a country that has experienced three military coups in its nearly 66-year history. Musharraf, who is currently under house arrest in connection with a separate case, could face the death penalty or life in prison if he is convicted of treason. But some analysts doubt the army, which is considered the country's most powerful institution, would allow that to happen and could intervene to prevent it. Musharraf has maintained his innocence.
Source: CTV News (http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/pakistani-premier-says-musharraf-to-face-trial-for-treason-1.1338956)

Pakistan continues to astonish me.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 16:29
Source: CTV News (http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/pakistani-premier-says-musharraf-to-face-trial-for-treason-1.1338956)

Pakistan continues to astonish me.
In what context do you find this news 'astonishing'?

Minskaya
24 Jun 13,, 16:45
In what context do you find this news 'astonishing'?
The news in and of itself doesn't astonish. It's more the continual Banana Republic quality of the news.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 16:51
The news in and of itself doesn't astonish. It's more the continual Banana Republic quality of the news.
So, would you rather not have former military dictators prosecuted in the courts, or is there something else you are referring to when you criticize the 'quality of the news'?

Minskaya
24 Jun 13,, 17:09
So, would you rather not have former military dictators prosecuted in the courts, or is there something else you are referring to when you criticize the 'quality of the news'?
If you really want to impress people around the globe, prosecute the ISI Directors who got you into such a fine mess.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 17:33
If you really want to impress people around the globe, prosecute the ISI Directors who got you into such a fine mess.
That is a different argument/discussion - I mean, you could pick any random article from the media in Pakistan and argue 'the news is not about the ISI DG's being prosecuted so I am not impressed', which would be a rather pointless exercise/comment. My question to you is what exactly do you find 'lacking in quality' in this particular news report suggesting that a former military dictator will be prosecuted in the courts?

Minskaya
24 Jun 13,, 17:53
My question to you is what exactly do you find 'lacking in quality' in this particular news report suggesting that a former military dictator will be prosecuted in the courts?
Hardly unexpected. It's simply another soap-opera sojourn into the seamy side of Pakistani politics.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 18:03
Hardly unexpected. It's simply another soap-opera sojourn into the seamy side of Pakistani politics.
Well, yes, commentators have been arguing that Musharraf is likely to be prosecuted ever since the PMLN government was elected, given the bad blood between Musharraf and Nawaz Sharif.

The interesting part of the whole dynamic is whether the trial itself will be completed without some sort of 'deal making' resulting in an 'AQ Khan style' sentence for Musharraf, whether the trial will be perceived as 'fair' and how the military will react to it.

Minskaya
24 Jun 13,, 18:56
Well, yes, commentators have been arguing that Musharraf is likely to be prosecuted ever since the PMLN government was elected, given the bad blood between Musharraf and Nawaz Sharif.
Bad blood is... an understatement.


The interesting part of the whole dynamic is whether the trial itself will be completed without some sort of 'deal making'...
A deal like the one brokered by the Saudis in 2000 to get Sharif out of prison and out of Pakistan?

:tongue:

antimony
24 Jun 13,, 19:01
Mushy is already "under mortal threat" and under virtual house arrest. I would expect said threat level to intensify prompting him to be transferred to an undisclosed location. Or he might develop some heart condition, high blood pressure, blood sugar, the pink toe syndrome or some other random, life threatening affliction due to which he needs to be hospitalized in an undisclosed private facility. Meanwhile the GOP (under NS) continues to promise bringing him to justice while the threat level is reviewed.

Military avoid humiliating trial while getting him out of their hair, NS neutralizes him without going toe to toe with the army. Problem solved.

If Kayani does offer Mushy up, I would expect him to get some massive payback in return for the army.

Tronic
24 Jun 13,, 19:04
Source: CTV News (http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/pakistani-premier-says-musharraf-to-face-trial-for-treason-1.1338956)

Pakistan continues to astonish me.

Saying and doing are two entirely different things.

One thing everyone should've learned by now is to never believe in the words coming out of Pakistan; they mean nothing. Only judge them by their actions.

If Musharraf is actually trialed and convicted for such, it'll be a win for Pakistani institutions over the long term. Otherwise, same old, same old.

Minskaya
24 Jun 13,, 19:29
Saying and doing are two entirely different things.
Which is precisely why Pakistan continually astonishes me.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 19:52
Which is precisely why Pakistan continually astonishes me.
If your criticism about this particular article was about the 'saying vs doing' aspect, then waiting for some sort of 'out of court settlement in violation of the constitution' would have served as a better target for your 'astonishment'.

At the moment all we have is a declaration of intent to prosecute Musharraf for 'treason' - there is little to be astonished about that.

Minskaya
24 Jun 13,, 20:07
At the moment all we have is a declaration of intent to prosecute Musharraf for 'treason' - there is little to be astonished about that.
Detach yourself for a moment AM and view this as an outsider. Ergo, no matter how this falls, remote viewers will invariably consider the result astonishing.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 20:10
Detach yourself for a moment AM and view this as an outsider. Ergo, no matter how this falls, remote viewers will invariably consider the result astonishing.
OK, so as an 'outsider', you consider the mere fact that the elected Prime Minster declared an intent to prosecute a former military dictator an 'astonishing event' -that is fine, but for now at least this is an 'astonishing event' in a positive context.

Doktor
24 Jun 13,, 20:33
Saying and doing are two entirely different things.

One thing everyone should've learned by now is to never believe in the words coming out of Pakistan; they mean nothing. Only judge them by their actions.

If Musharraf is actually trialed and convicted for such, it'll be a win for Pakistani institutions over the long term. Otherwise, same old, same old.

Do you have any serious doubts it will be that way? Besides "Old dog wont learn new tricks".

antimony
24 Jun 13,, 20:33
OK, so as an 'outsider', you consider the mere fact that the elected Prime Minster declared an intent to prosecute a former military dictator an 'astonishing event' -that is fine, but for now at least this is an 'astonishing event' in a positive context.

As Mushy's lawyer has said, going after Mushy would mean going after the others involved in the "plot", who may be current serving officers. It would be interesting to see the reaction of the PA in case that happens. I would be impressed if Mushy can be truly nailed, thought I would expect Kayani to get some massive concessions on the side.

Tronic
25 Jun 13,, 01:51
Do you have any serious doubts it will be that way? Besides "Old dog wont learn new tricks".

It took them 66 years to learn how to elect out a government. You really believe Pakistan has changed overnight?

Military is still the power holder in Pakistan.

Julie
25 Jun 13,, 02:47
If you really want to impress people around the globe, prosecute the ISI Directors who got you into such a fine mess.That will never happen. The ISI does what they want, when they want, and how they want, without being responsible for anything they do. The sky is the limit for them, and they get paid for it. The ISI places Mushy in office by coup, so then who is responsible for who? Is Mushy responsible for the actions of the ISI, or the ISI responsible for the actions of Mushy? Incredible.

Doktor
25 Jun 13,, 02:53
It took them 66 years to learn how to elect out a government.
You have to be fair there. They knew how to elect government. Only the army knew better how to coup it.


You really believe Pakistan has changed overnight?
Pakistan is a huge enigma to me.


Military is still the power holder in Pakistan.
Doesn't have to mean the new gov wont at least try to balance it in favor of civilian authorities.

Tronic
25 Jun 13,, 04:41
You have to be fair there. They knew how to elect government. Only the army knew better how to coup it.

Bad choice of words. Corrected: "It took them 66 years to learn how to vote out a government."



Doesn't have to mean the new gov wont at least try to balance it in favor of civilian authorities.

Every civil government has tried that, and they all ended up in bed with the generals. This is South Asia. Opportunism trumps everything. Politicians will take the easiest route to stay in power, and in Pakistan, that usually means keeping the generals happy.

Also, Let's not forget that every coup carried out by the army was to topple a corrupt and inefficient civil government. The PA has done well to establish a mature PR network. They enjoy the people's support. As far as most urban Pakistanis are concerned, they are the saviours of Pakistan. Things may have slowly changed over the past few years with a population increasingly linked to a global media discourse; but how much things have changed can only be seen until the next coup. :)

Doktor
25 Jun 13,, 07:08
I am not arguing. All I am saying is to give the new PG a chance to prove something changed. If they fail, we will tease AM, if they succeed, he will trump his chests, but it will be good for both of you. At least that's how I see it.

Minskaya
25 Jun 13,, 08:53
That will never happen. The ISI does what they want, when they want, and how they want, without being responsible for anything they do.
Indeed. Which is why I specifically pointed out this ingrained Pakistani judicial failure to AM...


If you really want to impress people around the globe, prosecute the ISI Directors who got you into such a fine mess.

Agnostic Muslim
25 Jun 13,, 14:34
Indeed. Which is why I specifically pointed out this ingrained Pakistani judicial failure to AM...
Prosecuting a DG ISI would require establishing that the Prime Minister and/or COAS did not order the DG ISI to act as alleged, and/or whether the DG ISI obtained the necessary approval to act in the manner alleged from the 'chain of command'.

And, again, my criticizm of your comments was regarding the context of the 'astonishment' you expressed at the article in the OP.

Agnostic Muslim
25 Jun 13,, 15:58
Analysis: Is Nawaz flexing civilian authority?
By Mazhar Abbas
Published: June 25, 2013

KARACHI: Hopes for former military ruler General (retd) Pervez Musharraf’s “safe exit” faded on Monday when Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif announced that the former dictator would be tried for high treason for abrogating the 1973 Constitution.

Apparently, Nawaz discussed the issue with the army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani – though no independent confirmation was available. The army, it seems, has accepted the government’s prerogative on going ahead with the trial.

Already, the government has shown some early signs of political maturity. Rather than act on its own, it awaited the directives of the Supreme Court. The prime minister took parliament into confidence and first made the disclosure before the MNAs. Since May 11th, Nawaz has avoided making comments on Musharraf’s fate. Despite his willingness to try Musharraf for dislodging his government on October 12, 1999, Nawaz steered well clear of that path, realising that the Supreme Court had already declared it legal.

By moving against Musharraf, Nawaz has also put Pakistan Peoples Party and the previous government in an embarrassing position for provided safe exit to the former military chief in 2008.

Nawaz has silenced all his critics, who were not sure that he would take a position against Musharraf. This is, after all, his first major step towards establishing civilian authority.

Nawaz is also likely to announce a high-powered commission to probe the real cause of Kargil conflict.

It would be interesting to see whether the government confined the case, in the light of the Supreme Court decision in the judges case of 2009, when it declared the Nov 3rd action as illegal and unconstitutional or would also add clause 2 of Article 6, which also holds those aiding or abetting the act guilty of high treason.

So far, Sharif and the federal government have maintained their neutrality and have not shown a sense of urgency in the case or the trial. They also avoided taking any harsh position in other cases registered against him or moved any application to put him in jail instead of his Chak Shahzad house, which now serves as a sub jail.

But what about Musharraf’s possible response? In several interviews in the past Musharraf had defended his Nov 3rd action. His close aides insist that Musharraf is ready to face the trial and would make a few disclosures as well. These disclosures are likely to embarrass several political leaders, civil bureaucrats and even ex-intelligence officials.

The actual trial can take a few months and by the time the verdict is announced Pakistan will have a new president, which some insiders believe could be the same president, who was forced to resign by Musharraf, ie, Rafiq Tarar. So history is likely to be repeated. Over the past two decades, Nawaz has cultivated the reputation of someone who has at least tried to establish civilian writ. As a result, he has often found himself embroiled in a struggle with successive army chiefs from General Aslam Baig to General Musharraf.

Analysis: Is Nawaz flexing civilian authority? – The Express Tribune (http://tribune.com.pk/story/567956/analysis-is-nawaz-flexing-civilian-authority/)

notorious_eagle
25 Jun 13,, 18:47
That will never happen. The ISI does what they want, when they want, and how they want, without being responsible for anything they do. The sky is the limit for them, and they get paid for it. The ISI places Mushy in office by coup, so then who is responsible for who? Is Mushy responsible for the actions of the ISI, or the ISI responsible for the actions of Mushy? Incredible.

Wow

You are giving too much credit to the ISI, it is no way near as powerful as you make it out to be. They are powerful, no doubt but they don't have absolute power as you make it out to be. The DG ISI reports to the PM and COAS, he is accountable to the PM for his actions. This is not the 90's anymore, actions of the ISI are closely monitored and highly scrutinized. The ISI is not independent, it is an arm of the Army and it toes the line of the Army.


If you really want to impress people around the globe, prosecute the ISI Directors who got you into such a fine mess.

We don't need to impress anyone, the only people whose wishes should be adhered to are Pakistanis. Prosecute the DG or Deputy DG ISI on what charges, the only way they can be charged if there is proof that they acted independently. And to your last point, the only reason why we are in this mess is because we joined this WOT, this was never our war and never will be. Pakistan needs to get out of this WOT ASAP.

Firestorm
25 Jun 13,, 18:58
Nawaz has avoided making comments on Musharraf’s fate. Despite his willingness to try Musharraf for dislodging his government on October 12, 1999, Nawaz steered well clear of that path, realising that the Supreme Court had already declared it legal.
This has to be the biggest farce of all. The Supreme court declared a military coup which deposed a democratically elected government as legal.

Tronic
25 Jun 13,, 19:54
I am not arguing. All I am saying is to give the new PG a chance to prove something changed.

Dok, there's nothing I can say or do that will take away Shariff's 'chance'. But, being familiar with Pakistan's modern political history, I'm allowed to be skeptical.



If they fail, we will tease AM, if they succeed, he will trump his chests, but it will be good for both of you. At least that's how I see it.

I'm not here to tease anybody, Dok.

Besides, you don't even know which side AM is on.

Agnostic Muslim
25 Jun 13,, 20:51
This has to be the biggest farce of all. The Supreme court declared a military coup which deposed a democratically elected government as legal.
Everything in its time - several members of the senior judiciary, including the Chief Justice, are part of the judiciary that validated the military coup by Musharraf (and later also played a major role in rallying public support against him and kicking him out of power), so I doubt the military coup will be ruled unconstitutional until the judges involved in legitimizing it move out of the system.

Minskaya
25 Jun 13,, 21:14
We don't need to impress anyone, the only people whose wishes should be adhered to are Pakistanis.
That's good to hear because total responsibility comes with total ownership.


And to your last point, the only reason why we are in this mess is because we joined this WOT, this was never our war and never will be.
But you've never refused the role money.

Doktor
25 Jun 13,, 21:43
Dok, there's nothing I can say or do that will take away Shariff's 'chance'. But, being familiar with Pakistan's modern political history, I'm allowed to be skeptical.
Understandable. However, IF I was a hippie, I'd say I feel too much bad energy.


I'm not here to tease anybody, Dok.
Oh, c'mon, I can swear there will be fireworks.


Besides, you don't even know which side AM is on.
See above. Is this a test phase? :)

Tronic
25 Jun 13,, 23:16
Understandable. However, IF I was a hippie, I'd say I feel too much bad energy.


Oh, c'mon, I can swear there will be fireworks.


See above. Is this a test phase? :)

Dok, You're going after the wrong guy. I stayed far away from the repetitive, merry-go-around http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/operation-enduring-freedom-af-pak/64059-documentary-afghanistan-price-revenge-4.html thread. I already know that I don't agree with AM, and I have already expressed my opinions to him in all our previous debates, so I have no desire to start anything which results in going in circles and repeating the same stuff. If anything, you're herding us into a pit here, Dok. ;)

Firestorm
25 Jun 13,, 23:20
Everything in its time - several members of the senior judiciary, including the Chief Justice, are part of the judiciary that validated the military coup by Musharraf (and later also played a major role in rallying public support against him and kicking him out of power), so I doubt the military coup will be ruled unconstitutional until the judges involved in legitimizing it move out of the system.

If the senior judiciary is dirty, then Musharraf's treason trial may or may not be fair. NS and co. have to somehow clean out the judiciary first. Can Mushy be held guilty of treason if his coup isn't declared unconstitutional?

Tronic
25 Jun 13,, 23:22
If the senior judiciary is dirty, then Musharraf's treason trial may or may not be fair. NS and co. have to somehow clean out the judiciary first. Can Mushy be held guilty of treason if his coup isn't declared unconstitutional?

A government in power "cleaning out the judiciary" is absurd, Firestorm. So much for checks and balances.

Firestorm
25 Jun 13,, 23:26
A government in power "cleaning out the judiciary" is absurd, Firestorm. So much for checks and balances.
I know, but what the Supreme court did was absurd as well. They are supposed to uphold the constitution, not legitimize someone's attempt at making a mockery of it.

Agnostic Muslim
25 Jun 13,, 23:46
If the senior judiciary is dirty, then Musharraf's treason trial may or may not be fair. NS and co. have to somehow clean out the judiciary first. Can Mushy be held guilty of treason if his coup isn't declared unconstitutional?
The judiciary fought tooth and nail to minimize government influence in judicial appointments under the PPP government. Pakistani liberal commentators (and some Western supporters of the PPP) were up in arms over the perceived 'judicial overreach/power-grab, but of course now that Nawaz Sharif is in power, and the potential of high-profile political cases being brought before the courts remains high, the judiciary's position of minimizing government influence over judicial appointments has a lot of merit.

notorious_eagle
26 Jun 13,, 04:42
But you've never refused the role money.

Off course not because we are the ones on the front line taking majority of the blows. With more than $80 billion damage to the economy, 45 000 civilians dead and 6000 soldiers dead, our peaceful country has been turned into a hell hole. The least Pakistan can expect is a fraction of the cost being subsidized for the military operations incurred for this WOT.

Doktor
26 Jun 13,, 07:48
Can you define peaceful?

Balochistan conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_conflict)

From what I can read there in similar time span you had worse casualties on your own then as a part of WoT.

~6,000 civilians killed in Pakistan (1973–1977)[14]
1,628+ civilians killed in Pakistan (2004–2009)[

lemontree
26 Jun 13,, 07:50
...our peaceful country has been turned into a hell hole.
Your Military rulers choose to make your country a hell hole. The choose to keep and nurture the Taliabn and other jihadi outfits.
The PA intended to keep these monsters to use them in their great designs against India/ Afghanistan, but unfortunately your country is hemorrhaging big time from the death and destruction caused by these "assets".

Fatalities in Terrorist Violence in Pakistan 2003-2013 (http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/database/casualties.htm)
Refer to the below data on fatalities for Pakistan for the last 3 years from terror incidents:
Year Civilians Security Forces Terrorists Total
2011 2738 765 2800 6303
2012 3007 732 2472 6211
2013 1774 371 1178 3323

India Fatalities :: South Asia Terrorism portal (http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/database/indiafatalities.htm)
Refer to the below data on fatalities for India for the last 3 years for the last 3 years from terror incidents:
Year Civilians Security Forces Terrorists Total
2011 429 194 450 1073
2012 252 139 412 803
2013 150 89 153 392

Pakistani fatalities: 15837
Indian fatalities: 2268

Minskaya
26 Jun 13,, 09:05
The least Pakistan can expect is a fraction of the cost being subsidized for the military operations incurred for this WOT.
You were never 'all in'. You're in this mess because of your continual double dealing.