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Minskaya
23 Jun 13,, 11:48
Nine tourists shot at north Pakistan mountain base camp
23 June 2013

Gunmen have killed 10 people, including nine foreign tourists after storming a hotel in far northern Pakistan. Officials say the victims include five Ukrainians, as well as nationals from China and Lithuania. A Nepalese tour guide was also killed. The assault happened at the base camp of Nanga Parbat, the world's ninth highest mountain, in Gilgit-Baltistan. It is the first such attack on tourists in the region. The Pakistani Taliban has told the BBC it was responsible. A spokesman for Tehrik-e-Taliban said the attack was in retaliation for the killing of its second-in-command, Waliur Rehman, who died in a suspected US drone strike in May. The group said it would continue to target foreigners.
Source: BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23018706)

My condolences to the victims families. Why anyone would elect to vacation in this violent shit-hole is beyond me.

Bigfella
23 Jun 13,, 12:50
Source: BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23018706)

My condolences to the victims families. Why anyone would elect to vacation in this violent shit-hole is beyond me.

For reasons that utterly escape me paying poor people to carry your luggage and watch you struggle to the top of tall mountains is quite the popular 'adventure tourism' activity. Good news for the economies of a few mountain regions, bad news for the tourists who die in their dozens - though usually on mountains rather than hotels. I suspect Pakistan offers a cheaper alternative to Tibet.

chanjyj
23 Jun 13,, 13:22
I own a photography company and know a friend who runs several tours (he brings them there himself as a guide) there catering specifically to cash-rich photographers. One thing I have to say is the area provides great opportunities for photography.

Now that said, if I ever head there I would very much like to carry a firearm along with me.

Minskaya
23 Jun 13,, 13:28
I suspect Pakistan offers a cheaper alternative to Tibet.


The group said it would continue to target foreigners.

The ripple from this and the promise to continue targeting foreigners will no doubt negatively impact Pakistan's 'tourist industry'. Egypt's tourism industry has never recovered from the Luxor massacre of foreigners by Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in 1997. Compounding the problem, just this month Morsi appointed Adel el-Khayat as governor of Luxor. El-Khayat is a member of the political arm of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya. Understandably, most Egyptians are astonished at the arrogance and insensitivity of this appointment.

1980s
23 Jun 13,, 14:21
Source: BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23018706)

My condolences to the victims families. Why anyone would elect to vacation in this violent shit-hole is beyond me.

The location of the attack is far removed from Waziristan and other Taliban strongholds, or so we thought. Seems that the Taliban and / or other Pakistani terrorist groups have a far wider reach outside of FATA than Pakistan wants to admit. No doubt, Sharif like his predecessors will also fail to exert Islamabad's so-called "sovereignty" over FATA but will instead appease the Taliban too, and more such mass murders will continue.

And i agree with the poster above, what a "shit-hole".

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/47707000/gif/_47707183_himalaya_karakorum466.gif

Pedicabby
23 Jun 13,, 18:48
Source: BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23018706)

Why anyone would elect to vacation in this violent shit-hole is beyond me.


I have been twice. First time was 99. 2nd time was 02. I had a great time. Good food and friendly people and the locals don't try to rip you off all the time like they do in India. If my Africa plan falls through for Jan - Mar. I might go back.

Parihaka
23 Jun 13,, 21:53
For reasons that utterly escape me paying poor people to carry your luggage and watch you struggle to the top of tall mountains is quite the popular 'adventure tourism' activity. Good news for the economies of a few mountain regions, bad news for the tourists who die in their dozens - though usually on mountains rather than hotels. I suspect Pakistan offers a cheaper alternative to Tibet.

Just for the sake of fairness, while I agree with you wholeheartedly about such groups as the everest expeditions and the absurdities and man slaughters that go on there: in fact I've never really understood any mountain climbers whose main ambition is to 'summit'. I prefer being among the mountains rather than on top of them.
However, Nanga Parbat is a far more difficult climb than Everest, well into the death zone the summiteers like to rabbit on about, far more technically difficult and with no option but to traverse several active avalanche zones. These climbers won't have been your average inexperienced tourists that clutter up Tibet.

lemontree
24 Jun 13,, 06:16
The location of the attack is far removed from Waziristan and other Taliban strongholds, or so we thought. Seems that the Taliban and / or other Pakistani terrorist groups have a far wider reach outside of FATA than Pakistan wants to admit. No doubt, Sharif like his predecessors will also fail to exert Islamabad's so-called "sovereignty" over FATA but will instead appease the Taliban too, and more such mass murders will continue.
- Gilgit is traditionaly a restive area and Pak Army has used force to keep the people under control. In 1988 OBL and hsi gang was used to butched people into submission.
- I doubt that TTK carried out the attack on the climbers. The region has irregular militia / possibly Taliban/ possibly LeT that are under command FNCA formation of the Pak Army.
- The location of attack is very close to the LOC with India, and you do not get rouge Talbian aka TTK in this part of POK. The only groups that are present are those that permitted by the Pak Army.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 13:39
Why anyone would elect to vacation in this violent shit-hole is beyond me.
The region that the attack took place has in fact been relatively violence free, and is very picturesque, with the presence of some of the worlds highest mountains attracting mountaineers from around the world.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 13:41
The ripple from this and the promise to continue targeting foreigners will no doubt negatively impact Pakistan's 'tourist industry'.
Pakistan does not have much of a 'tourism industry' at the moment to 'negatively impact' - the more concerning aspects of this particular attack are the targets chosen and the location it occurred in.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 13:57
- Gilgit is traditionaly a restive area and Pak Army has used force to keep the people under control.
What are you basing that claim on?

In 1988 OBL and hsi gang was used to butched people into submission.
Complete BS - this OBL canard is something widely disseminated in the Indian media and by Pakistan military bashers, but there is nothing credible to substantiate it.

- I doubt that TTK carried out the attack on the climbers. The region has irregular militia / possibly Taliban/ possibly LeT that are under command FNCA formation of the Pak Army.

ISLAMABAD: The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) claimed responsibility on Sunday for the killing of nine foreign tourists and their guide in Gilgit-Balitistan.

Postmortem of the tourists confirmed that their deaths were caused by firing.

The incident took place near a camp base, where the tourists were staying.

TTP spokesperson Ehsanullah Ehsan called The Express Tribune and said the group’s faction named Junud-e-Hafsa carried out the brutal attack.

He said the killing was revenge against the US drone attacks and killing of TTP chief Waliur Rehman Mehsud.

“This will tell the international community about our feelings and sentiments against the killing of our fighters,” he said.

Government officials said five Ukrainians and a number of Chinese were killed. One Pakistani also died and one Chinese survivor has been recovered.

The climbers were staying at a first camp, around 4,200 feet from Nanga Parbat, one of the highest mountains in the world, in the Diamer district of Gilgit-Baltistan.

TTP claims responsibility for killing tourists in Gilgit-Baltistan – The Express Tribune (http://tribune.com.pk/story/567250/ttp-claims-responsibility-for-killing-tourists-in-gilgit-baltistan/)

Doktor
24 Jun 13,, 14:22
One has to feel with Pakistanis (and I am not sarcastic here). Seems like they have army only for the Indians.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 14:29
One has to feel with Pakistanis (and I am not sarcastic here). Seems like they have army only for the Indians.
The Army cannot be deployed everywhere - the failure is primarily one in developing the civilian security forces and civilian intelligence and anti-terrorism apparatus to function effectively, which in turn is tied into an ineffective civilian government, and Pakistan just ended five years of essentially no governance under the PPP led coalition. Whether the PMLN can do better remains to be seen.

Doktor
24 Jun 13,, 14:37
I only showed my sentiment.

Talibans and Co. pass the border without problem.
Naval base gets stormed resulting in serious losses.
US Drones can be shot down, but it's a no no...
A lot of people die on a daily base in the NW and 10 years later it is still a status quo (at least to me over here).

a) PA are only serious when they guard border with India
b) They are totally incapable. I still doubt, tho if you look at the outcomes of Indo-Pakistani clashes the results are not shining.

Could have added the police in the mix, but would only be worse.

Julie
24 Jun 13,, 14:38
The region that the attack took place has in fact been relatively violence free, and is very picturesque, with the presence of some of the worlds highest mountains attracting mountaineers from around the world.Of course, which is why the tourists were there and it is sad that it is no longer safe for tourists to view such a beautiful place. With that said, I fail to see how Pakistan's failure to protect it's tourists in the safest of areas can be a role model to Afghanistan in the peace process. I see nothing but a train wreck with that and a waste of alot of people's time.

Agnostic Muslim
24 Jun 13,, 15:05
I only showed my sentiment.

Talibans and Co. pass the border without problem.
The problem has been present on the ISAF side (with significantly more technology and resources at their disposal), just as much as on the Pakistani side.

Naval base gets stormed resulting in serious losses.
It was not a fortress, and issues with lax security measures were identified after the attack ... attacks such as these need to be prevented during the planning and preparation stage, which leads back to my point about development of the civilian security and intelligence apparatus.

A lot of people die on a daily base in the NW and 10 years later it is still a status quo (at least to me over here).
I don't see any major improvements in Afghanistan, despite ISAF's huge military and economic resources, since Karzai took power either - the situation is too complex to resolve with military deployments and kinetic operations alone.


Could have added the police in the mix, but would only be worse.
Effective civilian law enforcement and governance is THE critical missing piece.

Double Edge
24 Jun 13,, 16:22
The ripple from this and the promise to continue targeting foreigners will no doubt negatively impact Pakistan's 'tourist industry'. Egypt's tourism industry has never recovered from the Luxor massacre of foreigners by Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in 1997. Compounding the problem, just this month Morsi appointed Adel el-Khayat as governor of Luxor. El-Khayat is a member of the political arm of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya. Understandably, most Egyptians are astonished at the arrogance and insensitivity of this appointment.
So that's a win for the GAI in the protection racket stakes.

Now just why were those climbers killed in Gilgit. Same thing ? did not pay the 'fees'.

Minskaya
24 Jun 13,, 16:44
The ripple from this and the promise to continue targeting foreigners will no doubt negatively impact Pakistan's 'tourist industry'.
The vantage point of a high mountain peak wasn't necessary to see this coming...



PAKISTAN has suspended expeditions on its second-highest peak and evacuated climbers after Islamist gunmen shot dead 10 foreign trekkers, braced for the collapse of its tiny tourist industry. The victims have been identified as an American with dual Chinese citizenship, three Ukrainians, two Slovakians, two others from China, a Lithuanian and a climber from Nepal.

It is a major blow to foreign trekking expeditions, which provide the last vestige of international tourism in a country where Islamist militants have killed thousands of people in recent years. Naiknam Karim, general secretary of the Pakistan Association of Tour Operators, said the killings were a "disaster'' for Gilgit-Baltistan, where tourism is the main source of income. "It will destroy tourism in our area,'' he told AFP, saying that he had already received a slew of cancellations by email and telephone. An average non-trekking tourist spends $3,000 in the area of stunning natural beauty, but trekkers sink $8-10,000 into the local economy, staying for longer as well as hiring guides and porters, Mr Karim said. "We used to be able to convince foreign tourists that there was peace in Gilgit-Baltistan but this incident has ruined everything,'' he said. "It will also badly affect domestic tourism... The Pakistani government has to take steps to re-build the trust otherwise this last industry will be ruined,'' he added.

He said there would be no further expeditions on Nanga Parbat this summer and that requests for winter climbs would be subject to a security review. "This season is over,'' Mr Hussain said.
Source: Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/ten-foreign-climbers-killed-in-pakistan-taliban-suspected/story-fni0xs61-1226669089696)

1980s
24 Jun 13,, 17:19
- Gilgit is traditionaly a restive area and Pak Army has used force to keep the people under control. In 1988 OBL and hsi gang was used to butched people into submission.
- I doubt that TTK carried out the attack on the climbers. The region has irregular militia / possibly Taliban/ possibly LeT that are under command FNCA formation of the Pak Army.
- The location of attack is very close to the LOC with India, and you do not get rouge Talbian aka TTK in this part of POK. The only groups that are present are those that permitted by the Pak Army.

If that was true in the past, it evidently no longer is. The BBC and Xinhua report that two groups have claimed the attack, one being the TTP, the other being Jundallah (a Taliban faction according to Xinhua).

1980s
24 Jun 13,, 17:45
BBC News - Taliban faction 'to kill foreigners' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23027031)

The Taliban have said that the 10 climbers shot dead in northern Pakistan were killed by a branch of the militant group set up to target foreigners.

They were forced to kneel and shot in the head, officials said, as more details emerged about Saturday's deadly assault at Nanga Parbat base camp.

Pakistan's cabinet met to discuss the attack and its impact on the country's already troubled tourist industry.

Climbers in the area of the world's ninth highest peak have been evacuated.

The Pakistani Taliban said that the new faction - named in local media reports as Junoodul Hifsa - was set up to take revenge for drone attacks in Pakistan.

The Taliban had earlier said that the attack was in retaliation for the killing of their second-in-command, Waliur Rehman, who died in a suspected US drone strike in May.

Rounded up

The nationalities of the foreign victims have now been identified as American, Chinese, Ukrainian, Slovakian, Lithuanian and Nepali. One Pakistani also died.

The BBC's Orla Guerin in Islamabad says the carefully choreographed assault was the worst attack on foreigners in Pakistan in a decade.

Survivors have yet to speak publicly about the attack but more details about their ordeal have emerged from local reports and from officials.

At least 15 gunmen dressed in the uniform of local security forces carried out the attack. Even though it took place at base camp, this was at a height of 4,200m (13,779 ft) and the attackers would have had to travel for at least 18 hours by foot or by mule, correspondents.

The attackers forced two local guides to take them to the base camp. Once they reached their destination, they rounded up the foreign climbers and staff, took passports and money, destroyed mobile phones, blindfolded them and forced them to kneel.

The gunmen separated and tied up the local Pakistani staff and told them not to attempt to raise the alarm until morning, a local official said. The attackers are believed to have left in the early hours of Sunday. It is thought that they had about six hours to make their escape.

The BBC has also been given an account by a climbing guide who was on the mountain approaching base camp on Saturday night when bursts of gunfire were heard.

The guide was warned to take cover by locals and stayed hidden on the mountain until the next morning when a Pakistani cook came rushing down in tears saying everybody had been killed.

A Chinese tourist is also known to have survived the attack, after apparently escaping from his captors.

Blow to tourism

The BBC's Orla Guerin in Islamabad says that it is clear this could not have been done without very careful planning.

Such organisation is consistent with the brazen assaults carried out by the Pakistani Taliban in the past on high security targets, our correspondent adds.

The authorities have held 36 people in connection with the attack, but they have admitted that they do not have the ringleader. Our correspondent says that people in the area have no confidence the authorities will find those responsible.

Part of the Himalayan Range, Nanga Parbat, which is 8,126m (26,660ft) above sea level, is popular with trekkers and mountaineers, especially during June and July.

The Gilgit-Baltistan region, where it is located, is famous for its natural beauty.

The attack is likely to hurt the finances of the cash-strapped Gilgit-Baltistan government which depends heavily on revenue raised from mountain expeditions.

Expeditions to Nanga Parbat have been halted, our correspondent says.

Sources have told the BBC that climbing will soon be suspended on other mountains, including K2, the world's second highest peak.

Although this is the first such attack on tourists in the region, it is being seen as a significant blow for the already struggling tourist industry in Pakistan which has suffered years of militancy.

Some 36 people have been arrested, but the authorities admit they have not captured the ringleaders of the attack. One of those in custody is a Pakistani guide who was apparently forced to lead the gunmen to their targets.

notorious_eagle
25 Jun 13,, 05:05
Nanga Parbat massacre: Thousands protest against the ‘unprecedented’ incident


GILGIT: Thousands of people participated in a demonstration in Chilas town on Monday against the vicious massacre of foreign tourists near the base camp of Pakistan’s second highest peak – Nanga Parbat.
“We strongly condemn the brutal act which defamed the entire country especially Diamer valley,” said Taifoor Shah, a local leader of the Pakistan Peoples Party, as he addressed the rally.
Tourism is one of the main sources of income for locals. Those committing such crimes want to deprive people of livelihood, pointed out Shah.

Life came to a standstill as traders closed their shops to express solidarity with the affected families. More than 4,000 people gathered at the ‘Siddiq Akbar’ intersection to protest against the incident; one which has been termed unprecedented in the history of Gilgit-Baltistan.
Armed men, dressed in Gilgit Scouts uniforms, stormed a camp at Kutgali near the base camp of Nanga Parbat early Sunday, and shot down 10 foreign mountaineers and a Pakistani guide at point blank range. A Chinese climber managed to escape the assault at the foot of Nanga Parbat, located in Diamer valley.

Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz’s Haji Waheed termed the act a conspiracy against the public, aimed at derailing projects like the Diamer–Bhasha Dam and railway track project with China. These were announced by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif recently.
“Our enemies don’t want us to progress but we as a nation have to counter such plots,” said Waheed.
Among others, the rally was also addressed by Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam-Fazal’s Shabbir Ahmad and Maulana Giyas who asked the government to arrest culprits and expose them to the public.

Nanga Parbat massacre: Thousands protest against the (http://tribune.com.pk/story/567793/nanga-parbat-massacre-thousands-protest-against-the-unprecedented-incident/)

37 held in Diamer search operation

GILGIT: Troops carried out a search operation on Monday, along with personnel of the Gilgit-Baltistan Scouts, Frontier Constabulary and police, in the area where 10 foreign mountaineers had been killed in an armed attack on Sunday and took into custody 37 suspects.

“The joint operation by the army, paramilitary troops and police will continue,” Diamer Deputy Commissioner Mohammad Ajmal Bhattee told Dawn.

He said evidence was being gathered to help trace the attackers. He said a case had been registered by Gunar Farm police and the suspects had been taken to Gilgit for interrogation.

The official said an investigation camp had been set up at the Nanga Parbat base camp at Diamori that had come under attack and all routes to the place had been sealed, but the administration was facing difficulty in maintaining communication with the operating forces in the area because of tough terrain.

The deputy commissioner said the government had held talks with leaders of local groups and they had promised to cooperate in the investigation.

A meeting held on Monday in Chilas in connection with the investigation was attended by the chief secretary and police chief of Gilgit-Baltistan.

The official said the luggage of the victims was being collected and brought to Chilas to be sent to Islamabad and handed over to their families.

Meanwhile, Gilgit-Baltistan Chief Minister Syed Mehdi Shah is reported to have been displeased by the decision of the federal interior minister to suspend the region’s chief secretary and inspector general of police.

According to an official, he ordered the suspended officials to continue to perform their duties and said their suspension was outside the domain of the federal government.

“If suspension of officials could establish peace then first of all the chief secretaries and IGs of Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa should have been suspended,” he was quoted as saying.

He said the officials could not be suspended without his consent.

STRIKE: The Chilas town remained closed on Monday in mourning for the people killed in the base camp attack.

All markets remained closed and people took to the streets, raising slogans against the killers and demanding their early arrest.

At a largely attended public meeting the speakers termed the terrorist attack a conspiracy against their area.

AFP/ Reuters add: A police official said four helicopters were combing the areas in search of the attackers.

Expeditions on Nanga Parbat, the country’s second-highest peak, were suspended and climbers evacuated form the area.

It is a major blow to trekking expeditions which provide the last vestige of international tourism in the country. Naiknam Karim, general secretary of the Pakistan Association of Tour Operators, said the killings were a ‘disaster’ for Gilgit-Baltistan, where tourism was the main source of income.

He said he had already received a slew of cancellations by email and telephone.

Before the 9/11 attacks in the US, more than 20,000 foreign tourists, climbers and trekkers used to visit Gilgit-Baltistan each year, but the number had since fallen to around 5,000, he said.

He said an average non-trekking tourist spent about $3,000 in the area, but trekkers sunk $8,000-10,000 into the local economy.

“We used to be able to convince foreign tourists that there was peace in Gilgit-Baltistan but this incident has ruined everything,” he told AFP.

“It will also badly affect domestic tourism... The Pakistani government has to take steps to re-build the trust otherwise this last industry will be ruined,” he added.

The Alpine Club of Pakistan said around 40 remaining climbers on Nanga Parbat had been airlifted to Gilgit.

The club’s president Manzoor Hussain said there would be no further expeditions on Nanga Parbat this summer and the requests for winter climbs would be subject to a security review. “This season is over.”

He said expeditions on other peaks higher than 8,000 metres had not been suspended and there were troops in those areas.

Mr Hussain said the attack was well-planned, carried out by well-equipped and well-trained people familiar with the harsh terrain, with suspected local involvement.

“It took place at 4,200 metres. It has to be the work of well-trained people. It takes two to three days to reach (the camp). The body needs to adjust to the climate for climbing up. How they went undetected is a big question.”

Mr Hussain said citizens from Serbia, Italy, Ireland, Denmark, the United States and several other countries had been evacuated from a higher camp.

A group of Romanians is believed to be scaling the mountain from another side.

Mountaineers, many from China, Russia and Eastern Europe, are among the last foreigners who regularly visit Pakistan for leisure as tourism has been devastated since 2007 by militant attacks and fighting between the Taliban and the army.

Before the attack some 50 groups were expected this year in Gilgit-Baltistan.

“I haven’t slept since yesterday, it’s a very sad situation,” said Ghulam Mohammed, whose Skardu-based company Blue Sky Treks and Tours guided five of the climbers killed at the base camp. He was in Islamabad to speak to embassies and relatives of the victims.

37 held in Diamer search operation - DAWN.COM (http://dawn.com/news/1020548/37-held-in-diamer-search-operation)

My Heart goes out to the victims of this horrific crime, RIP :(.

lemontree
25 Jun 13,, 05:51
What are you basing that claim on?

The people of Gilgit and Balistan were asserting their rights in 1988, no separatism persay, but were demanding more share in development. Gen Musharraf was a brigade commander in FCNA in 1988, and OBL and his gang was used to butcher about 200-300 hunderd Balti shias.

The result was a bomb on Zia-ul-Haqs plane that killed him. These events are well documented wheather you agree to it or not.


Complete BS - this OBL canard is something widely disseminated in the Indian media and by Pakistan military bashers, but there is nothing credible to substantiate it.
What do you know of Gen Musharraf's past military history? He was a gunner commissioned in a SP arty medium regt, he did a stint in the SSG in 1971. Musharraf was a Coy Cdr in 2 SSG. This battalion has the dubious distinction of massacaring all its bengali soldiers in Mar/May 1971, without any reason (no mutiny or rebellion took place). These soldiers had been part of the unit since its raising. One of its bengali 2Lt escaped and joined the Mukti Bahini. Musharraf has the blood of bengali soldiers on his hands - technically he is a war criminal.

However, there is some discrepancy, i.e 2 SSG lost its CO and the battalion was put under command 3 SSG’s CO Lt. Col ZA Khan (now Brig retd). 2 SSG was sent back to West Pakistan before the war broke out in Dec’71 (according to the book by Brig ZA Khan). 2 SSG is notorious for some of the worst brutalities in East Pakistan prior to the 1971 war.

Agnostic Muslim
25 Jun 13,, 13:27
The people of Gilgit and Balistan were asserting their rights in 1988, no separatism persay, but were demanding more share in development. Gen Musharraf was a brigade commander in FCNA in 1988, and OBL and his gang was used to butcher about 200-300 hunderd Balti shias.

The result was a bomb on Zia-ul-Haqs plane that killed him. These events are well documented wheather you agree to it or not.

Well documented where and by whom?


What do you know of Gen Musharraf's past military history? He was a gunner commissioned in a SP arty medium regt, he did a stint in the SSG in 1971. Musharraf was a Coy Cdr in 2 SSG. This battalion has the dubious distinction of massacaring all its bengali soldiers in Mar/May 1971, without any reason (no mutiny or rebellion took place). These soldiers had been part of the unit since its raising. One of its bengali 2Lt escaped and joined the Mukti Bahini. Musharraf has the blood of bengali soldiers on his hands - technically he is a war criminal.

However, there is some discrepancy, i.e 2 SSG lost its CO and the battalion was put under command 3 SSG’s CO Lt. Col ZA Khan (now Brig retd). 2 SSG was sent back to West Pakistan before the war broke out in Dec’71 (according to the book by Brig ZA Khan). 2 SSG is notorious for some of the worst brutalities in East Pakistan prior to the 1971 war.
Does ZA Khan describe the killing of the Bengali soldiers in the battalion in his book? If so, I'll have to get a copy to read.

That said, the alleged events in 1971 do not substantiate claims of an 'OBL led massacre' in G-B.

notorious_eagle
25 Jun 13,, 17:41
The people of Gilgit and Balistan were asserting their rights in 1988, no separatism persay, but were demanding more share in development. Gen Musharraf was a brigade commander in FCNA in 1988, and OBL and his gang was used to butcher about 200-300 hunderd Balti shias.

These are all rumours, there is no truth and not even a single piece of evidence to support this fallacious claim. The enemies of PA spread these rumours to create hatred for PA among the people of GB, but they failed miserably. 200-300 deaths is not something you can just hide under the rug, news like this gets out and fast.


The result was a bomb on Zia-ul-Haqs plane that killed him.

No correlation what so ever with this


These events are well documented wheather you agree to it or not.

No they are not, there is not a single piece of evidence to support this audacious claim. These are just conspiracy theories, the authenticity behind them is the same as Zionists trying to take over the world.

notorious_eagle
26 Jun 13,, 03:46
Well documented where and by whom?

There is no documentation of this Agno, these were B.S rumours started by the enemies of the State with foreign backing to turn the people of GB against the Army. Off course they failed miserably, PA enjoys wide range support among the locals.

lemontree
26 Jun 13,, 05:50
Well documented where and by whom?
Here is one source: GILGIT-BALTISTAN: MURDER MOST FOUL (http://www.southasianoutlook.net/index.php/issue/2012/april-2012/134-gilgit-baltistan-murder-most-foul)

Later, in May 1988, military dictator General Zia-ul-Haq, in an attempted massive sectarian attack, sent a Lashkar (army) of militants, comprising natives of Afghanistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, to attack the Shias living there. The fire of sectarianism was lit by Zia during the last days of his rule.

In the words of International Crisis Group’s (ICG) report Discord in Pakistan’s Northern Areas:

.…Sunni zealots, predominantly from NWFP’s tribal areas, assisted by local Sunnis from Chilas, Darel and Tangir, [on May 17, 1988] attacked several Shia villages on the outskirts of Gilgit. For three days, they killed, looted and pillaged with impunity while the authorities sat back and watched. Although contingents of the paramilitary Frontier Constabulary (FC) were eventually sent in, they too looked the other way while Sunni attackers wreaked havoc. By the time army units were sent in to quell the violence, at least 150 people were killed, several hundred injured and property worth millions of rupees destroyed.


Does ZA Khan describe the killing of the Bengali soldiers in the battalion in his book? If so, I'll have to get a copy to read.
Yes, the officer does describe the killings, he specifically mentioned that ORs who were part of the unit since its raising were gunned down without provocation (look for "The way it was").

Another excellent historian and former Pak Army officer is Major (Retd) Agha Humayun Amin. Their online works are available in (Pak) Defence Journal online content.


That said, the alleged events in 1971 do not substantiate claims of an 'OBL led massacre' in G-B.
The events of 1971 were to illustrate the war crimes of Gen Musharraf and what he is capable off.

lemontree
26 Jun 13,, 05:52
There is no documentation of this Agno, these were B.S rumours started by the enemies of the State with foreign backing to turn the people of GB against the Army. Off course they failed miserably, PA enjoys wide range support among the locals.
Many in your country would not agree with you.
Read the opinion of a blogger in your country.
GILGIT BALTISTAN UNITED MOVEMENT: Gilgit Baltistan: Joyride to Death in Pakistan (http://skardu.blogspot.com/2012/04/gilgit-baltistan-joyride-to-death-in.html)

The recent incident reminds them of the Shia massacre of 1988, when military dictator Zia-ul-Haq directly supported the militants during attacks on fourteen villages of Gilgit Baltistan. Thousands of people lost lives, honor and property during that episode which lasted for sixteen days.....

lemontree
26 Jun 13,, 05:57
Deleted

notorious_eagle
28 Jun 13,, 20:21
Sir

Many in my Country also believe a lot of B.S conspiracy theories, should we also entertain them too? Killing thousands of people in 16 days and dumping their bodies is not as easy as this blogger makes it out to be. The blogger has absolutely no proof, not a single piece of tangible evidence, he is basing his claims on wild assertions. Lt Gen Humayun Khan Bangash has already stated that these were just hoax news created by the enemies of the State to create a wedge between the people of GB and the Army. Killing of this scale is not something you can hide under the rug, if something like this did happen you would have seen HR NGO's all over the news yelling at the top of their lungs.

lemontree
01 Jul 13,, 05:57
Sir

Many in my Country also believe a lot of B.S conspiracy theories, should we also entertain them too? Killing thousands of people in 16 days and dumping their bodies is not as easy as this blogger makes it out to be. The blogger has absolutely no proof, not a single piece of tangible evidence, he is basing his claims on wild assertions. Lt Gen Humayun Khan Bangash has already stated that these were just hoax news created by the enemies of the State to create a wedge between the people of GB and the Army. Killing of this scale is not something you can hide under the rug, if something like this did happen you would have seen HR NGO's all over the news yelling at the top of their lungs.
You can choose not to believe this, and it makes no difference to us. There was an atrocity committed in your country - the army again used mass killings against its own people, a repeat of the Bangla mindset. Your own people were wronged, and it is time you realised the evil done buy some of your generals that have caused immence harm to the fabric of your nation.

I am not posting artciles by Indian Intelligence resources, but they are available on the internet and you can access them.

Officer of Engineers
01 Jul 13,, 06:01
Killing of this scale is not something you can hide under the rug, if something like this did happen you would have seen HR NGO's all over the news yelling at the top of their lungs.Not to counter your points but HR NGOs ain't worth crap all unless there's a $10,000 a night hotel nearby. The scale of the Rwandan and the Cambodian Genocides were only learned when opposing armies overran the killing fields.

lemontree
02 Jul 13,, 12:43
This video says it all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQpr64yRl38

Agnostic Muslim
02 Jul 13,, 13:44
This video says it all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQpr64yRl38
A 5 minute propaganda video with oh so scary music produced by Indians? Really? That is how low you have to stoop to in order to come up with some sort of justification for your nonsensical claims?

BTW, the gentleman interviewed at approximately 1:00 minute into the video states that 'they have received information from military and secret agencies that the Taliban are present in some numbers there' and not what the caption states that 'the Taliban are receiving support from the military and intelligence agencies'. You people can't even translate Urdu properly now, or was that a deliberate misrepresentation of what the man said?

The journalist is also never shown actually speaking about 'the ISI promoting sectarianism and encouraging Sunni extremist Pashtuns and Punjabis to settle in G-B' as the narrator suggests. The last part about GB being 'treated as a colony by Pakistan with courts run under the Pakistani system and limited autonomy' is an accurate representation of the journalists comments. Some of these issues were supposed to have been settled with the reforms introduced under the previous PPP government, and I do not know how old this particular interview is to determine whether the comments were made before the reforms were implemented or after.

Agnostic Muslim
02 Jul 13,, 15:04
Not to counter your points but HR NGOs ain't worth crap all unless there's a $10,000 a night hotel nearby. The scale of the Rwandan and the Cambodian Genocides were only learned when opposing armies overran the killing fields.
GB is not an active conflict zone - add in the fact that there are numerous foreign mountaineering expeditions to the region in addition to travel by Pakistanis from other provinces and the argument that a 'genocide' or 'large scale ethnic/sectarian massacre' has been kept under wraps all these years lack credibility, especially if the allegations of 'ethnic/sectarian massacres' are based on propaganda (such as the video posted by Lemontree) openly distorting/misquoting the comments of local residents.

notorious_eagle
02 Jul 13,, 17:17
You can choose not to believe this, and it makes no difference to us. There was an atrocity committed in your country - the army again used mass killings against its own people, a repeat of the Bangla mindset. Your own people were wronged, and it is time you realised the evil done buy some of your generals that have caused immence harm to the fabric of your nation.

I am not posting artciles by Indian Intelligence resources, but they are available on the internet and you can access them.

Sir

I choose to believe what i believe based on the facts that are at hand instead of some B.S propaganda posted by the enemies of the State. A killing of this scale is impossible to hide under the rug, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that killings of this scale took place. GB is not an isolated area, it is a bustling tourist destination where Pakistanis from other provinces regularly venture into. Heck, even i have been there 8 times and encountered no problems what so ever. If this atrocity had taken place as you claim, the people of GB would have never forgiven the State and would have openly rebelled. But that is not the case, the people of GB are fierce patriots and that can be seen by the sheer number of Gilgit Baltistanis lining up to join NLI.


This video says it all...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQpr64yRl38

I am at a loss of words Sir

To justify your own fallacy, you resort to posting a propaganda video. AM has done a fantastic job retorting the video, its a piece of garbage nothing else. One more point i would like to add in addition to AM's post, look at the landscape in the video. It resembles the landscape of Waziristan more than the landscape of GB.

notorious_eagle
02 Jul 13,, 17:25
Not to counter your points but HR NGOs ain't worth crap all unless there's a $10,000 a night hotel nearby. The scale of the Rwandan and the Cambodian Genocides were only learned when opposing armies overran the killing fields.

No arguments there Sir

Gen Dallaire's biography exposed the conduct of Kofi Annan, which was indeed quite appalling.

lemontree
03 Jul 13,, 05:37
Sir

I choose to believe what i believe based on the facts that are at hand instead of some B.S propaganda posted by the enemies of the State. A killing of this scale is impossible to hide under the rug, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that killings of this scale took place. GB is not an isolated area, it is a bustling tourist destination where Pakistanis from other provinces regularly venture into. Heck, even i have been there 8 times and encountered no problems what so ever. If this atrocity had taken place as you claim, the people of GB would have never forgiven the State and would have openly rebelled. But that is not the case, the people of GB are fierce patriots and that can be seen by the sheer number of Gilgit Baltistanis lining up to join NLI.
You wanted proof, I gave you something with a Pakistani Journalist from Balistan.


I am at a loss of words Sir

To justify your own fallacy, you resort to posting a propaganda video. AM has done a fantastic job retorting the video, its a piece of garbage nothing else. One more point i would like to add in addition to AM's post, look at the landscape in the video. It resembles the landscape of Waziristan more than the landscape of GB.
I even have video's of Pak Army units executing unarmed men. Would you like to see them?

When I said that Balistan is a refuge for the Taliaban, permitted by Pak Army, I have provided evidence in the form of this video. Wheather you choose to blieve it or not does not matter. I proved my POV with media.

lemontree
03 Jul 13,, 05:50
A 5 minute propaganda video with oh so scary music produced by Indians? Really? That is how low you have to stoop to in order to come up with some sort of justification for your nonsensical claims?
The video is on the same lines as the BBC reported posted by me. So why grumble?


BTW, the gentleman interviewed at approximately 1:00 minute into the video states that 'they have received information from military and secret agencies that the Taliban are present in some numbers there' and not what the caption states that 'the Taliban are receiving support from the military and intelligence agencies'. You people can't even translate Urdu properly now, or was that a deliberate misrepresentation of what the man said?
Ok you can stop the BS here. There is no difference in the subtitles and what the Pakistani journalist is saying. Aslam Inqalabi is an active individual in Balistan.


The journalist is also never shown actually speaking about 'the ISI promoting sectarianism and encouraging Sunni extremist Pashtuns and Punjabis to settle in G-B' as the narrator suggests.
I never claimed he did, he was mainly speaking about the support Taliban was getting from PA/ISI to get refuge in Balistan. That is what this video is about, about the ISI patronage for Taliban in Balistan, and that the Taliban operate in the region with ISI/PA support and they do not carry out operations without the "OK" from ISI.

The mountaineers were most probably killed on ISI orders, based on some hare brained assumption.

lemontree
03 Jul 13,, 09:30
This is another video of how restive Balistan province is:
WARNING: Graphic video...47 Balti Shias were killed here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXEjiOfMxV0

Taliban propaganda video (incident in Quetta I think)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg9WVzVFofI

Agnostic Muslim
03 Jul 13,, 14:07
Ok you can stop the BS here. There is no difference in the subtitles and what the Pakistani journalist is saying. Aslam Inqalabi is an active individual in Balistan.

You don't understand Urdu then - there is a huge difference in what the journalist actually says in Urdu and what the caption states.


I never claimed he did, he was mainly speaking about the support Taliban was getting from PA/ISI to get refuge in Balistan. That is what this video is about, about the ISI patronage for Taliban in Balistan, and that the Taliban operate in the region with ISI/PA support and they do not carry out operations without the "OK" from ISI.
The narrator of the video claims that the journalist stated that 'the ISI is promoting sectarianism to subdue the freedom movement', but the journalist is never shown actually saying that. In conjunction with the blatant distortion of the journalists comments (pointed out above) it is pretty obvious this video is nothing more than a half arsed propaganda job out of India.


The mountaineers were most probably killed on ISI orders, based on some hare brained assumption.
The only 'hare brained assumption' is the one you offered here - the only 'State sponsored attack' theory (if you want to ignore the TTP claim of responsibility) that actually makes sense is one of Indian or Afghan military forces carrying out the terrorist attack.

Agnostic Muslim
03 Jul 13,, 14:13
Why I hate Chilas

I hear that Chilas is a ghost town these days, its inhabitants spooked by the killings of the international mountain climbers (and one Pakistani guide who had a Shia name), who were camping at Nanga Parbat’s Diamer Face base camp at almost 4,200 meters above sea level. That meant the attackers had to climb up almost 18 hours and needed to be skilled climbers – that indicates that they were no ordinary Taliban from the plains or even the tribal areas (the Tehreek-e-Taliban spokesman has claimed that the assault was carried out by its sub group, Jund-ul Hifsa). They had to be locals who were familiar with the high mountain terrain and could climb up to those heights without suffering from altitude sickness. Indeed the Chief Secretary of the area has claimed that the terrorists belong to banned organisations with 10 from Diamer, three from Kohistan and two from Manshera. Both the police chief and Chief Secretary say the Diamer jirga has helped them identify the accused, who are now hiding somewhere in the valley.

They did not rule out the possibility of the same group’s involvement in last year’s attacks targeting Shia passengers in Lulusar and Kohistan. Chilas is of course the capital of Diamer District and is a small town located on the left bank of the Indus River. The Karakoram Highway (KKH) passes right through it and there is a PTDC motel for travelers going onwards to Gilgit and Skardu. For me, it has always been a creepy place where women are nowhere to be seen and bearded men carry guns and stare at you with hostility – I always avoid stopping there while going by road to Gilgit or Hunza from Islamabad on the KKH. Last April, a crazed mob in Chilas town ended up lynching 9 Shia bus passengers traveling on the KKH. People from Chilas are inward looking and Wahabi-influenced – not at all progressive and tolerant like the predominantly Ismaili/Shia population of Gilgit, Hunza and Skardu. The towering mountains that ring Chilas are marked with huge SSP (Sipah-i-Sahaba) signs (although the organisation is now banned in Pakistan), and the main bazaar is named Muawiya Chowk. Need I say more?

For many years, the villagers of Chilas have prevented the government from building a larger airport with a longer runway on their relatively flat land (which would make it so much easier for tourists going to Gilgit and Hunza), for fear of an influx of outsiders to their area. The tiny airport at Chilas is currently closed for domestic flights and the town can only be reached through the KKH and also from the Kaghan valley passing over the Babusar Pass.

...

Why I hate Chilas - DAWN.COM (http://www.dawn.com/news/1022046/why-i-hate-chilas)

Tronic
03 Jul 13,, 19:02
You don't understand Urdu then - there is a huge difference in what the journalist actually says in Urdu and what the caption states.

Clasping on to straws, really. The man's accent, and his poor grammatical composition, makes clear that urdu is not his first language. But than, you engage every discussion like a lawyer, attempting to come out on top, even if it means clutching on to strawman arguments. The gist of what he's trying to say comes out in the video as he refers to Gilgit being a peaceful region until the Pakistani takeover in '47. He's clearly not a fan of the Pakistani occupation.

I've long argued against India repressing Kashmiris, often rooted on the sidelines by Pakistanis. I just can't digest the hypocrisy; the minute you put in front the fact that no matter how bad India has treated the people of erstwhile J&K, Pakistan has treated them far worse, you get responses such as yours.

Agnostic Muslim
03 Jul 13,, 20:14
Clasping on to straws, really. The man's accent, and his poor grammatical composition, makes clear that urdu is not his first language. But than, you engage every discussion like a lawyer, attempting to come out on top, even if it means clutching on to strawman arguments. The gist of what he's trying to say comes out in the video as he refers to Gilgit being a peaceful region until the Pakistani takeover in '47. He's clearly not a fan of the Pakistani occupation.

When confronted with clear evidence of the video distorting the journalists comments to imply nothing even close to what he actually said, you want to resort to excuses about 'poor grammatical composition' and 'the gist of the comments', and then argue that I am the one 'clutching to strawman arguments'? How absurd.

Interpreting the journalists comments to support the caption of 'ISI/Army is supporting the TTP' would require more than just 'poor grammatical composition', it would require turning the language upside down. And even if you want to cling to the absurd excuse of 'poor grammatical composition', how on earth can you claim to know that YOUR interpretation of the 'gist of his comments' is accurate, given said 'poor grammatical composition'?

And with respect to the journalist 'not being a fan of Pakistan administering the region', please note my comments accepting the validity of demands for 'reforms' in GB.

Doktor
03 Jul 13,, 20:43
:confused: Isn't TTP enemy of Pakistan?

Tronic
03 Jul 13,, 20:49
When confronted with clear evidence of the video distorting the journalists comments to imply nothing even close to what he actually said, you want to resort to excuses about 'poor grammatical composition' and 'the gist of the comments', and then argue that I am the one 'clutching to strawman arguments'? How absurd.

Interpreting the journalists comments to support the caption of 'ISI/Army is supporting the TTP' would require more than just 'poor grammatical composition', it would require turning the language upside down. And even if you want to cling to the absurd excuse of 'poor grammatical composition', how on earth can you claim to know that YOUR interpretation of the 'gist of his comments' is accurate, given said 'poor grammatical composition'?

And with respect to the journalist 'not being a fan of Pakistan administering the region', please note my comments accepting the validity of demands for 'reforms' in GB.

I only gave you the benefit of doubt, so don't go running with it. Cut the BS. We know what he said.

Jump to 4:00, and he directly blames the instability and rising violence in Gilgit on the Pakistan state's presence in the region. Lost in translation again? :rolleyes:

Agnostic Muslim
03 Jul 13,, 20:59
We know what he said.
So you agree then that what 'he said' translates to 'we have received information from the administration/bureaucracy, security agencies, secret agencies and military that extremists/Taliban are sheltering in GB and receiving support in GB' and does not translate to the caption accompanying the journalists comments in the video stating that 'the Army/ISI is supporting extremists/Taliban in GB'.

The video is nothing but a propaganda piece spouting outright lies by fabricating and distorting the comments made by the local journalist interviewed in the video.


Jump to 4:00, and he directly blames the instability and rising violence in Gilgit on the Pakistan state's presence in the region. Lost in translation again? :rolleyes:
More like an obstinate refusal on your part to acknowledge that I accepted the validity of his arguments regarding a lack of autonomy and the imposition of Pakistani laws and courts on GB - here they are again:

"The last part about GB being 'treated as a colony by Pakistan with courts run under the Pakistani system and limited autonomy' is an accurate representation of the journalists comments. Some of these issues were supposed to have been settled with the reforms introduced under the previous PPP government, and I do not know how old this particular interview is to determine whether the comments were made before the reforms were implemented or after."

Starting from 4:00 the journalist talks about how the conditions in GB deteriorated after 1947, comments that on their own do not suggest that the ISI/Army was/is supporting terrorists in GB, but rather point to the abysmal job of governance done by successive Pakistani governments.

lemontree
04 Jul 13,, 05:24
Ok damn the first video, what about the second and third video where shias/ Baltis were massacred.
Some reports state that 20 were killed, so my earlier stated figure of 47 maybe incorrect.